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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2001/02/20 13:59:15 UTC
[wow!] XQuery!!!
This stuff rocks!
http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery
Can you say "Apache XML Database Project"? :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!-- HOW TO USE CVS?
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
* Tagunov Anthony (atagunov@nnt.ru) wrote :
> If this is possible i personally could improve our production process in
> the following way: we develop on the development server, when we
> see it's okay we put it into the CVS with tag 'main' and then it automatically
> gets copied to Cocoon production dir.
Cron + a cvs export?
Paul.
--
Paul Russell Email: paul@luminas.co.uk
Technical Director Tel: +44 (0)20 8553 6622
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)870 28 47489
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!-- HOW TO USE CVS?
Posted by je...@socialchange.net.au.
On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:15:48PM +0300, Tagunov Anthony wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:35:52 +0100, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >> Btw: What tools are you using for storing XML documents in your RDBMS?
> >
> >That's the problem: none! For now, I don't see the need to store
> >documents in a RDBMS system, I'd use CVS over a transactional file
> >system instead!
>
> Please, how do you do that?
>
> is it possible with a CVS that when you put there something
> in the regular way, it gets copied to some 'deployment dir'
> (in our case a dir that cocoon takes its source files from)?
>
> If this is possible i personally could improve our production process in
> the following way: we develop on the development server, when we
> see it's okay we put it into the CVS with tag 'main' and then it automatically
> gets copied to Cocoon production dir.
You can do automatic publishing like that with the standard CVS hooks (eg
commitinfo). Anyway, it's a bit OT here, so have a look at
http://cvsbook.red-bean.com/ and mail me offline if you'd like any pointers:)
--Jeff
> Thanx in advance, Tagunov Anthony
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!-- HOW TO USE CVS?
Posted by Tagunov Anthony <at...@nnt.ru>.
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:35:52 +0100, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>
>> Btw: What tools are you using for storing XML documents in your RDBMS?
>
>That's the problem: none! For now, I don't see the need to store
>documents in a RDBMS system, I'd use CVS over a transactional file
>system instead!
Please, how do you do that?
is it possible with a CVS that when you put there something
in the regular way, it gets copied to some 'deployment dir'
(in our case a dir that cocoon takes its source files from)?
If this is possible i personally could improve our production process in
the following way: we develop on the development server, when we
see it's okay we put it into the CVS with tag 'main' and then it automatically
gets copied to Cocoon production dir.
Thanx in advance, Tagunov Anthony
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Lars Martin wrote:
> Prowler is not designed to provide basic storage mechanism. It's an
> integration layer. Do you mean ozone/XML?
Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant.
> You are right, we definetely
> have much experience with the pros and cons of the current architecture
> of ozone's persistent DOM implementation and we do have many ideas for
> improving the architecture.
Yeah, I'm sure you guys do.
> Btw: What tools are you using for storing XML documents in your RDBMS?
That's the problem: none! For now, I don't see the need to store
documents in a RDBMS system, I'd use CVS over a transactional file
system instead!
But this is because I don't do 'inner document' queries, nor I plan to
perform them rather then using XPointer thru the inclusion mechanism.
But in the future, when lots and lots of semistructured content is
present (imagine something like storing all CVS commits and all mail
massages in a marked-up form!), neither an RDBMS nor my hypotetical
ACID-CVS hack can work.
The solution I'd like? an XML DBMS with workflow-based revision control,
WebDAV access, and XQuery support.
WebDAV solves the 'update' problem since no stupid mindtwisting query
language is necessary to store things in, but you use your favorite tool
over WebDAV (even nifty things like OpenOffice) and store them as you'd
save a file.
Workflow based revision control will keep the database in shape (you can
add "schema validation" filtering during save to avoid data curruption),
ACID properties will maintain the data valid and persistent in all
working conditions, XQuery will allow to extract the data in many useful
ways (the file system representation can be mapped into a tree view and
queried like the whole database was a huge document).
Careful: this is *NOT* a replacement for an RDBMS since if you have to
store relational data nothing beats an RDBMS. Period.
It is not even a specialized OODBMS system: concepts like 'inheritance'
are of no use in this context.
An XMLDBMS is something useful *ONLY* to stores structured information
(markup) that doesn't have highly repetitive schemes.
But document management (or 'knowledge management' as the buzzword of
the next 6 months) is an incredibly important part of all information
technology and relying on things like M$ Office over simple WebFolders
is not only a lock-in, but a total waste of effort.
This is what I'd want from a CMS: any other solution is a hack.
In my future vision, Apache will need something like that, so either we
start from Prowler or from scratch, but we'll need something like that.
Who knows, maybe once I get bored of Cocoon :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Donald Ball <ba...@webslingerZ.com>.
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Krzysztof Zielinski wrote:
> Kwelt implemens XQuery.
er, no, not from what i've read on it - it implements XML querying, sure,
mostly on the quilt model, but not XQuery.
> >Kweelt is a framework to query XML data. Among other things, it offers an
> evaluation engine for the Quilt XML query language proposed >by Chamberlin,
> Florescu and Robbie, with a lot of useful extensions. Using Kweelt, one can
> run all the use-cases published by W3C for the >XML query requirements.
> >But Kweelt is not just an implementation of a query language. It has been
> designed as a reference platform to make all sort of research >experiments
> related to XML: storage, query optimization, document output, etc.
>
> It is integrated with Cocoon 1.7.4 but I couldn't coorrect run Kweelt.
>
> See at: http://db.cis.upenn.edu/Kweelt/
it looks like a good project. too bad for us that it's under the GPL.
- donald
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Krzysztof Zielinski <kz...@supermedia.pl>.
Hi.
Kwelt implemens XQuery.
>Kweelt is a framework to query XML data. Among other things, it offers an
evaluation engine for the Quilt XML query language proposed >by Chamberlin,
Florescu and Robbie, with a lot of useful extensions. Using Kweelt, one can
run all the use-cases published by W3C for the >XML query requirements.
>But Kweelt is not just an implementation of a query language. It has been
designed as a reference platform to make all sort of research >experiments
related to XML: storage, query optimization, document output, etc.
It is integrated with Cocoon 1.7.4 but I couldn't coorrect run Kweelt.
See at: http://db.cis.upenn.edu/Kweelt/
Kris.
kzielinski@supermedia.pl
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Steve Muench <St...@oracle.com>.
| > Btw: What tools are you using for storing XML documents in your RDBMS?
|
| Just serializing them to BLOBs at the moment. Is there a better way?
| (sorry, first time I've tried to do this kind of thing).
Oracle provides facilities like the "XML SQL Utility" which
provide bidirectional SQL<-->XML access to data.
For SQL queries, it can produce String, Stream, DOM, or SAX2
output for the queries.
For inbound XML documents, it can insert the documents
into any table, view, object table, or object view, using
any supported datatype and with any structure supported
by object views.
This is more appropriate for "datagrams", XML which is
really just a structured serialization of some table data.
For document fragments, storing the chunks in indexable
and searching CLOB columns (with XPath-like "interMedia Text"
searching using the SQL CONTAINS operator) is the best
way to go.
______________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Lead XML Evangelist & Consulting Product Manager
BC4J & XSQL Servlet Development Teams, Oracle Rep to XSL WG
Author "Building Oracle XML Applications", O'Reilly
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/orxmlapp/
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Lars Martin <la...@smb-tec.com>.
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:26:03 +0000
Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk> wrote:
> * Lars Martin (lars@smb-tec.com) wrote :
> > Btw: What tools are you using for storing XML documents in your RDBMS?
>
> Just serializing them to BLOBs at the moment. Is there a better way?
> (sorry, first time I've tried to do this kind of thing).
Well, there are many different solutions for storing/retrieving documents
in relational data bases. Point your browser to
http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/XMLDatabaseProds.htm
to get a listing. We're using Volker Turau's DB2XML to read (!) relational
data from a Postgres DB.
--
______________________________________________________________________
Lars Martin mailto:lars@smb-tec.com
SMB GmbH http://www.smb-tec.com
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
* Lars Martin (lars@smb-tec.com) wrote :
> Btw: What tools are you using for storing XML documents in your RDBMS?
Just serializing them to BLOBs at the moment. Is there a better way?
(sorry, first time I've tried to do this kind of thing).
Paul.
--
Paul Russell Email: paul@luminas.co.uk
Technical Director Tel: +44 (0)20 8553 6622
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)870 28 47489
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Lars Martin <la...@smb-tec.com>.
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:45:55 +0100
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> Having seen what you can do with 100Kb of java code (see Hypersoniq
> SQL), I don't think it's impossible to build such a thing that at first
> sounds like a beast.
>
> Oracle made a multibillion dollar business out of scarying people out of
> DBMS stuff... is it really *THAT* hard to get something that works the
> way we want?
> Call me egocentric (I am, I know I am), but I don't think so... ok,
> added in my TODO list.
>
> > I'm up to my armpits in databases
> > chocabloc with BLOBs o' XML. It'd be really nice to be able to just
> > manipulate the XML live...
>
> There you go, see what I mean with 'infecting the community'? Now,
> everytime each one of you will think "damn, if I had a database that
> understood structured data instead of these stupid relational BLOBS"
> you'll think about having such a project going.
>
> Hopefully somebody will be so tired of messing with RDBMS that will
> start writing one.
>
> Start with Prowler? maybe, I think it's a good place to start and for
> sure they have enough knowledge of non-conventional DBMS... or maybe
> start from scratch... I don't know.... for sure using RDBMS for storing
> XML documents is a pain in the ass.
Prowler is not designed to provide basic storage mechanism. It's an
integration layer. Do you mean ozone/XML? You are right, we definetely
have much experience with the pros and cons of the current architecture
of ozone's persistent DOM implementation and we do have many ideas for
improving the architecture.
Btw: What tools are you using for storing XML documents in your RDBMS?
Lars
--
______________________________________________________________________
Lars Martin mailto:lars@smb-tec.com
SMB GmbH http://www.smb-tec.com
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Paul Russell wrote:
>
> * Stefano Mazzocchi (stefano@apache.org) wrote :
> > This stuff rocks!
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery
> >
> > Can you say "Apache XML Database Project"? :)
>
> Heh. Are there any plans for this?
Not that I know of, but I'm injecting the notion in the community for a
reason :)
Having seen what you can do with 100Kb of java code (see Hypersoniq
SQL), I don't think it's impossible to build such a thing that at first
sounds like a beast.
Oracle made a multibillion dollar business out of scarying people out of
DBMS stuff... is it really *THAT* hard to get something that works the
way we want?
Call me egocentric (I am, I know I am), but I don't think so... ok,
added in my TODO list.
> I'm up to my armpits in databases
> chocabloc with BLOBs o' XML. It'd be really nice to be able to just
> manipulate the XML live...
There you go, see what I mean with 'infecting the community'? Now,
everytime each one of you will think "damn, if I had a database that
understood structured data instead of these stupid relational BLOBS"
you'll think about having such a project going.
Hopefully somebody will be so tired of messing with RDBMS that will
start writing one.
Start with Prowler? maybe, I think it's a good place to start and for
sure they have enough knowledge of non-conventional DBMS... or maybe
start from scratch... I don't know.... for sure using RDBMS for storing
XML documents is a pain in the ass.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
* Stefano Mazzocchi (stefano@apache.org) wrote :
> This stuff rocks!
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery
>
> Can you say "Apache XML Database Project"? :)
Heh. Are there any plans for this? I'm up to my armpits in databases
chocabloc with BLOBs o' XML. It'd be really nice to be able to just
manipulate the XML live...
Paul.
--
Paul Russell Email: paul@luminas.co.uk
Technical Director Tel: +44 (0)20 8553 6622
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)870 28 47489
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Lars Martin <la...@smb-tec.com>.
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:57:38 +0300
"Tagunov Anthony" <at...@nnt.ru> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:59:15 +0100, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> >This stuff rocks!
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery
>
> One liitle notion: unluckyly the do not have any
> Update units there.. Don't know if we can
> build an XML database without an update
> language, and building a launguage is A
> TUFF TASK!
Hi all.
The XML:DB Initiative (http://www.xmldb.org) is focused on developing
standards (APIs, languages, specifications) for XML databases. The
organization has started two projects:
1. XML Database API: the goal is to develop a counterpart for ODBC/JDBC
2. XUpdate: the goal is to develop an XML Update Language
Lars
--
______________________________________________________________________
Lars Martin mailto:lars@smb-tec.com
SMB GmbH http://www.smb-tec.com
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Brian P Millett <bp...@ec-group.com>.
Donald Ball wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > This stuff rocks!
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery
> >
> > Can you say "Apache XML Database Project"? :)
>
> awwwwwww, yeah. they're _really_ getting somewhere now. nice to see the
> good elements of its predecessors (xpath, xql, quilt, and sql) all being
> used in a relatively harmonious whole. i'll have to pore over this
> tonight.
Yea, the first implementation of a XQuery handheld will have a small icon at the bottom that states:
"Don't Panic"
--
Brian Millett
Enterprise Consulting Group "Shifts in paradigms
(314) 205-9030 often cause nose bleeds."
bpm@ec-group.com Greg Glenn
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Donald Ball <ba...@webslingerZ.com>.
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> This stuff rocks!
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery
>
> Can you say "Apache XML Database Project"? :)
awwwwwww, yeah. they're _really_ getting somewhere now. nice to see the
good elements of its predecessors (xpath, xql, quilt, and sql) all being
used in a relatively harmonious whole. i'll have to pore over this
tonight.
- donald
Re: [wow!] XQuery!!!
Posted by Tagunov Anthony <at...@nnt.ru>.
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:59:15 +0100, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>This stuff rocks!
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery
One liitle notion: unluckyly the do not have any
Update units there.. Don't know if we can
build an XML database without an update
language, and building a launguage is A
TUFF TASK!
Best regards, Tagunov Anthony