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Posted to users@subversion.apache.org by Gabor Szabo <sz...@gmail.com> on 2005/06/08 11:40:45 UTC
Clear Case vs Subversion
I am helping a large organization compare CC with Subversion.
One of the points that came up integration with MS Office products.
In the table for comparing Subversion with Clearcase the analyst indicated
"Good integration of CC with Office" while "No integration of SVN with Office"
While this is not a CC mailing list, does anyone know what does this
"good integration" mean ?
Will such integration be possible with SVN ?
BTW just for those interested in the CC vs Subversion subject here are a few
links I Googled (the first pointing to a question asked on this list
nearly a year
ago):
http://svn.haxx.se/users/archive-2004-08/0716.shtml
http://bitsko.slc.ut.us/blog/clearcase-svn.html
http://www.cmcrossroads.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=31647
Gabor
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Re: Clear Case vs Subversion
Posted by "Edward Q. Bridges" <eb...@eqbridges.com>.
Mr. Rousseau,
A year ago (almost) you wrote the below detailed comparison of Clearcase
vs. Subversion.
Here it is now almost a year later, and since you asked to be followed up
with about how much you liked it, and since someone else on the subversion
list is now asking about this comparison, and since I'm interested to
hear, would you be so kind to provide a follow up with how successful your
use was?
Thanks in advance!
Ed Bridges
cf. http://svn.haxx.se/users/archive-2004-08/0716.shtml
> ---------------------------------------
> Subject: Re: ClearCase vs. Subversion
> From: John Rousseau (JRousseau_at_novell.com)
> Date: 2004-08-12 20:09:26 CEST
>
> I've used ClearCase extensively for about 8 years, and I like it very
> much. I've only been using subversion for about 3 months. Here are my
> personal opinions, your mileage may vary. :-)
>
> Really! My opinion only. No flames please.
>
> ClearCase Pros:
> - Industrial strength
> - Excellent merge tools
> - Good GUI on Windows
> - Proven reliability
> - Scales up well
>
> ClearCase Cons:
> - Heavyweight server and client
> - Very steep learning curve for users
> - All merges are server based
> - Means you can't merge or diff without having connectivity to the
> servers
> - Merges over high latency links are SLOW
> - Very expensive
> - Weak GUI on *nix platforms
> - Server communication is RPC based (think lots of little packets) so
> anything
> over a high latency link is SLOW
> - You need to do many things the ClearCase way, not your way
> - Scales down terribly
> - High administration burden
>
> Subversion Pros:
> - Open Source (lots of interest and integrations)
> - Very lightweight server and client
> - Quick learning curve for users (until you get to merging)
> - Fast and efficient on the network
> - Flexible architechture
> - Scales down well (I don't yet know how well it scales up)
> - Lots of IDE, editor and tool integrations
> - Low administration burden
>
> Subversion Cons:
> - Open Source (developers work on what they want to)
> - Immature technology
> - Merge tracking is currently completely manual
> - Weak support for checking out part of a repository
>
> We've been using ClearCase for large-team development for years, but we
> now have a lot of remote developers and ClearCase sucks for remote users.
> It also requires a lot of administration. We evaluated Perforce, CVS,
> subversion and BitKeeper earlier this year to see if we could find
> something that was better than ClearCase with the option of staying with
> ClearCase if need be. We chose subversion. Ask me in a year when our first
> big project using subversion ships if I'm still happy with it.
>
> Devs: more than SQL support, merge tracking (which IS desperately needed)
> or any bell or whistle, you need to absolutely guarantee that people don't
> lose bits. With all the reports of repository corruption on this list (be
> it user error, act of God or bug), I don't sleep very well at night.
> "Restore from backup" is not an acceptable answer.
>
> Having said that, I'm quite happy with subversion so far.
>
> -John
>
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:20:47 +1000, Barnett, Chris
> <Chris.Barnett_at_Yum.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi list,
>>
>> I'm after a feature comparison between ClearCase and Subversion - can
>> anyone help? I've googled and googled, but all I find is 1 line mentions
>> of ClearCase in flame wars on SVN vs arch.
>>
>> TIA,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> John Rousseau JRousseau_at_novell.com
> Novell, Inc. Phone: +1 781 464 8377
> 404 Wyman Street Fax: +1 781 464 8100
> Waltham, MA 02451 http://www.novell.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Clear Case vs Subversion
Posted by "Edward Q. Bridges" <eb...@eqbridges.com>.
Mr. Rousseau,
A year ago (almost) you wrote the below detailed comparison of Clearcase
vs. Subversion.
Here it is now almost a year later, and since you asked to be followed up
with about how much you liked it, and since someone else on the subversion
list is now asking about this comparison, and since I'm interested to
hear, would you be so kind to provide a follow up with how successful your
use was?
Thanks in advance!
Ed Bridges
cf. http://svn.haxx.se/users/archive-2004-08/0716.shtml
---------------------------------------
Subject: Re: ClearCase vs. Subversion
From: John Rousseau (JRousseau_at_novell.com)
Date: 2004-08-12 20:09:26 CEST
I've used ClearCase extensively for about 8 years, and I like it very
much. I've only been using subversion for about 3 months. Here are my
personal opinions, your mileage may vary. :-)
Really! My opinion only. No flames please.
ClearCase Pros:
- Industrial strength
- Excellent merge tools
- Good GUI on Windows
- Proven reliability
- Scales up well
ClearCase Cons:
- Heavyweight server and client
- Very steep learning curve for users
- All merges are server based
- Means you can't merge or diff without having connectivity to the servers
- Merges over high latency links are SLOW
- Very expensive
- Weak GUI on *nix platforms
- Server communication is RPC based (think lots of little packets) so
anything
over a high latency link is SLOW
- You need to do many things the ClearCase way, not your way
- Scales down terribly
- High administration burden
Subversion Pros:
- Open Source (lots of interest and integrations)
- Very lightweight server and client
- Quick learning curve for users (until you get to merging)
- Fast and efficient on the network
- Flexible architechture
- Scales down well (I don't yet know how well it scales up)
- Lots of IDE, editor and tool integrations
- Low administration burden
Subversion Cons:
- Open Source (developers work on what they want to)
- Immature technology
- Merge tracking is currently completely manual
- Weak support for checking out part of a repository
We've been using ClearCase for large-team development for years, but we
now have a lot of remote developers and ClearCase sucks for remote users.
It also requires a lot of administration. We evaluated Perforce, CVS,
subversion and BitKeeper earlier this year to see if we could find
something that was better than ClearCase with the option of staying with
ClearCase if need be. We chose subversion. Ask me in a year when our first
big project using subversion ships if I'm still happy with it.
Devs: more than SQL support, merge tracking (which IS desperately needed)
or any bell or whistle, you need to absolutely guarantee that people don't
lose bits. With all the reports of repository corruption on this list (be
it user error, act of God or bug), I don't sleep very well at night.
"Restore from backup" is not an acceptable answer.
Having said that, I'm quite happy with subversion so far.
-John
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:20:47 +1000, Barnett, Chris
<Chris.Barnett_at_Yum.com> wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> I'm after a feature comparison between ClearCase and Subversion - can
> anyone help? I've googled and googled, but all I find is 1 line mentions
> of ClearCase in flame wars on SVN vs arch.
>
> TIA,
>
> Chris
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
John Rousseau JRousseau_at_novell.com
Novell, Inc. Phone: +1 781 464 8377
404 Wyman Street Fax: +1 781 464 8100
Waltham, MA 02451 http://www.novell.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Clear Case vs Subversion
Posted by Glenn Davy <gd...@tpg.com.au>.
I'm not sure, but I imagine this applies - I've used Ivan Pushkovs
svn/scc proxy to great success with various versions of ms-access -not
free true, but well worth $29US. I guess you could also use it with
other office projects. Basically makes svn look like visual studio (or
someother scc based system)
just an idea?
Glenn
On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 18:22 +0530, Ravi Giri wrote:
> On 6/8/05, Gabor Szabo <sz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > While this is not a CC mailing list, does anyone know what does this
> > "good integration" mean ?
> > Will such integration be possible with SVN ?
>
> ClearCase integration with MS Office products provides a ClearCase
> menu item in the taskbar of Office programs like Work, Excel, etc. It
> also allows the comparison and merging of some MS Office documents
> (using MS Office compare/merge feature, not something built into
> ClearCase)
>
> AFAICT, For SubVersion to have something similar, there would need to
> be a plugin along the lines of the Visual Studio plugins that are out
> there.
>
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Re: Clear Case vs Subversion
Posted by Ravi Giri <ra...@gmail.com>.
On 6/8/05, Gabor Szabo <sz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> While this is not a CC mailing list, does anyone know what does this
> "good integration" mean ?
> Will such integration be possible with SVN ?
ClearCase integration with MS Office products provides a ClearCase
menu item in the taskbar of Office programs like Work, Excel, etc. It
also allows the comparison and merging of some MS Office documents
(using MS Office compare/merge feature, not something built into
ClearCase)
AFAICT, For SubVersion to have something similar, there would need to
be a plugin along the lines of the Visual Studio plugins that are out
there.
--
Ravi
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Re: Clear Case vs Subversion
Posted by Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at>.
Ulrich Eckhardt wrote:
> Gabor Szabo wrote:
> I think you should mention that SVN integrates much deeper with the MS Windows
> OS via the TortoiseSVN plugin for the Explorer. IOW, every program that
> stores data in files (not in DBs or the registry) benefits from this
> integration.
>
Well also, there is the new DeltaAV mechanism which basically integrates
seamlessly with Windows as well, over WebFolders, to my knowledge.
This is even more seamless than having tortoise.
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Re: Clear Case vs Subversion
Posted by Ulrich Eckhardt <ec...@satorlaser.com>.
Gabor Szabo wrote:
> One of the points that came up integration with MS Office products.
> In the table for comparing Subversion with Clearcase the analyst indicated
> "Good integration of CC with Office" while "No integration of SVN with
> Office"
>
> While this is not a CC mailing list, does anyone know what does this
> "good integration" mean ?
> Will such integration be possible with SVN ?
I think you should mention that SVN integrates much deeper with the MS Windows
OS via the TortoiseSVN plugin for the Explorer. IOW, every program that
stores data in files (not in DBs or the registry) benefits from this
integration.
Uli
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