You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Christoph Reg <re...@theduke.at> on 2016/08/03 17:00:28 UTC
Merge with LibreOffice?
Greetings, dear AOO community.
Please note first that this message is not supposed to be flaimbait or
trolling of any kind.
I've never been involved in any way with either OO or LO.
I'm also not trying to criticize anyone.
I'm asking this question out of general curiosity ( and the greater good of
the OSS community).
I'm not too familiar with the history of Open/LibreOffice, but I understand
there were several issues there regarding development process and grief
with Oracle, that led to the fork.
When Oracle gave over OO to Apache, I was surprised not to see an effort to
merge the two projects again, since, in my view, maintaining and developing
two forks of such a large scale and hugely beneficial project can only
result in a lot of wasted effort in developer and other community
contributor time (maintaining home pages, documentation, releases, ....).
Regardless of why or how,
when it comes to development, it's clear that LO has won. Hands down.
LO gets more commits in one or two days than AOO had since the beginning of
the year.
Apparently, all devs have moved over and AOO development is dead.
Unless there is a lot of work happening not commited to the repo, which
would be weird.
OpenOffice still has a smoother name, as well as a good discoverability
with search engines, books and training materials, etc. Which is probably
why a lot of people still use and download it.
But would it not be time to call it a day and officially just merge with
Libre office and retire AOO, only providing critical security patches goind
forward?
What are your views on this?
Are there any reasons why this is not feasible?
Again, this probably sounds like an attack, but it really is not meant to
be.
Hoping for some informative responses.
With Regards,
theduke
RE: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard Morris (aka Col Boogie)
> [mailto:Howard_Cary_Morris@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 14:49
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
>
> Hi all,
> From what I can tell, the 2 groups can (and are?) borrowing from
> each other. I prefer its free and open concept. However, seeing some
> other recent emails and some concerns of my own, I think we can make it
> easier for new developers by doing the following:
[orcmid]
I am not aware of much being borrowed from LibreOffice for Apache OpenOffice, but perhaps I am not paying attention. I do know that the security teams cooperate because that is of mutual interest for the safety of all our users. A principle under which the Apache Software Foundation projects operate is that work from other projects must be willingly contributed by someone with the authority to do so. It is not OK for AOO developers and other contributors to AOO to simply go out and harvest material from other projects, even were the other licenses compatible for use in an ASF Project.
> 1.. Copying all source code into a zip file, to get all the code just
> copy that one file.
[orcmid]
The complete source code of any release is always available in a variety of archive formats. To find source for Apache OpenOffice 4.1.2, go to
<https://www.openoffice.org/download/index.html>
And click on the right sidebar link "Alternative download link (source)" under "Additional Resources".
> 2.. Make a zip file containing descriptions of all source code. It
> also needs overview modules how certain modules work together.
> 3.. Make a zip file containing instructions how to do complies, put
> everything together, check out modules, etc.
[orcmid]
Currently, documentation is distributed across two wikis and a web site. Although there are ways to create zip files of web pages, the current efforts use tools, services, and organizations that are not easily captured in sets of static web pages. However, there is a great opportunity for volunteers to work on slowly building-out and also finding ways to capture/export improved documentation at all levels.
> 4.. For Open Office Site, add module that lets people check out/in
> modules and tell others what they are working on. Of course, there has
> to be a companion transactions that allows people to see what is going
> on. There also needs some kind of security to keep people from trashing
> the site.
[orcmid]
This is related to how Apache OpenOffice contribution governance is handled. This is done by Subversion and it permits check-out at the levels you suggest. However, the means of contributing source code is in accordance with Apache Software Foundation requirements for operation of projects. Project governance is covered in materials on the <http://apache.org> pages. All operations against the code base are recoverable.
> If it were me, I’d break down the code into independent modules. For
> Writer, that may mean don’t load the math, table, picture (frame), etc.
> module until there is a need for it.
[orcmid]
Dynamically-loaded shared libraries are used throughout OpenOffice, although there might be more that could be done architecturally. That is something to look into but don't expect serious refactoring in any kind of short time span, if ever.
>
> Howard
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by Chuck Davis <cj...@gmail.com>.
Then there is the usability issue....
LO have been attempting to copy MS Office and have succeeded to the point
that in many ways it is as annoying as MS Office.
AOO, on the other hand, have maintained usability features that, in my
opinion, simply make it a better user experience.
They may have more commits but those commits are, in many instances, taking
them in the wrong direction.
That's my $.02.
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by "Howard Morris (aka Col Boogie)" <Ho...@hotmail.com>.
Hi all,
From what I can tell, the 2 groups can (and are?) borrowing from each other. I prefer its free and open concept. However, seeing some other recent emails and some concerns of my own, I think we can make it easier for new developers by doing the following:
1.. Copying all source code into a zip file, to get all the code just copy that one file.
2.. Make a zip file containing descriptions of all source code. It also needs overview modules how certain modules work together.
3.. Make a zip file containing instructions how to do complies, put everything together, check out modules, etc.
4.. For Open Office Site, add module that lets people check out/in modules and tell others what they are working on. Of course, there has to be a companion transactions that allows people to see what is going on. There also needs some kind of security to keep people from trashing the site.
If it were me, I’d break down the code into independent modules. For Writer, that may mean don’t load the math, table, picture (frame), etc. module until there is a need for it.
Howard
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by Javen O'Neal <on...@apache.org>.
On Aug 3, 2016 10:00 AM, "Christoph Reg" <re...@theduke.at> wrote:
> Regardless of why or how,
> when it comes to development, it's clear that LO has won. Hands down.
> LO gets more commits in one or two days than AOO had since the beginning
of
> the year.
> Are there any reasons why [merging AOO and LO] is not feasible?
I'll take a guess here:
1) Prevalence. LibreOffice has been the default office productivity suite
in Ubuntu for a while. This has had some downstream effects [1] on
popularity.
2) Licensing. Apache OpenOffice is licensed under the Apache License 2.0.
LibreOffice is licensed under Mozilla Public License 2.0, GNU LGPL v3+, and
is based on code from Apache Open Offfice (ASL 2.0-licensed). Since
contributions to LibreOffice are not compatible with the ASL 2.0 license,
they cannot be committed upstream to Apache OpenOffice. This is partially
responsible for the asymmetry in commits that you have observed.
Adding a license to either project or requiring contributions to be
licensed differently also poses problems, since this may affect upstream
and downstream projects, and prior contributions would need to be
relicensed (which may require obtaining approval from every past
contributor, many of whom are not reachable). The effort required to
resolve these legal challenges is massive, and I'd rather that effort be
spent on software improvement.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#History
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
I think your question is valid.
The situation of Free Officesuites is worrying; not only for Apache
OpenOffice, but also for LibreOffice.
Apache OpenOffice has crossed a deep valley, but it goes slowly upwards
now from a very low level.
I don't want to talk about the situation at LO, but my impression is,
that it looks better, than it really is.
So a good and fair collaboration between the two projects would be wise.
But it isn't possible, as long as one party claims, that the other party
has to declare to be dead.
A reunion of the two projects is also not possible yet.
One reason is the deep disappointment people feel.
But there are also some more objective reasons, for example different
release philosophies, different opinions about the transference of
rights to the entity of the project etc.
One more reason is, that some people are votaries of licences with
copyleft and others of licences without any copyleft.
So the question is valid, but the answer is: Not yet.
Kind regards
Michael
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by Donald Whytock <dw...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 2:38 PM, toki <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 31/08/2016 16:26, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>
> > The question I am left with is this: If a cousin development provides
> what you want, why are you not satisfied with that?
>
> There are functions and capabilities in AOo that are not in LibO or EO.
> There are functions and capabilities in EO that are not in LibO or AOo.
> There are functions and capabilities in LibO that are not in AOo or EO.
>
> As such, until one of those contains all of the functions and
> capabilities found in the other two, there will always be users whose
> use case will require at least two, if not all three be installed.
>
I can't speak for what power users there may be out there, but I suspect I
personally am much more likely to pick one and then defend my decision to
the death, even if it means adjusting my usage pattern to fit. My criteria
may be financial, or functional, or even socio-political, but whichever it
is, it's enough of an effort to change my word processor AND my mind that
it's not likely to happen on a casual basis, much less a day-to-day one.
Don
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by toki <to...@gmail.com>.
On 31/08/2016 16:26, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> The question I am left with is this: If a cousin development provides what you want, why are you not satisfied with that?
There are functions and capabilities in AOo that are not in LibO or EO.
There are functions and capabilities in EO that are not in LibO or AOo.
There are functions and capabilities in LibO that are not in AOo or EO.
As such, until one of those contains all of the functions and
capabilities found in the other two, there will always be users whose
use case will require at least two, if not all three be installed.
jonathon
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
RE: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Απόστολος Συρόπουλος [mailto:asyropoulos123@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 12:36
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: ΑΠ: Merge with LibreOffice?
>
>
> >> Greetings, dear AOO community.
> >>
> >> Please note first that this message is not supposed to be flaimbait
> or
> >> trolling of any kind.
> >
> >It is. Have a nice day.
>
> Well it is not! I am Solaris user and sometime ago I tried to compile
> OpenOffice, when
> in fact it should compile on Solaris out-of-the-box... I asked the core
> developers
> to drop support for SunStudio since it assumes one compiles with a
> version that
> shipped with Solaris 9 (the current version of Solaris is 11 and Solaris
> 9 was eoled a
> few years ago...) and it does not compile even with recent versions of
> SunStudio.
> And when I managed to compile everything, I had noticed that OpenOffice
> could
> not open docx and othe zipped document formats. The people of
> LibreOffice
> asked me to incorporate my patches to their source tree (I had of course
> no
> objection). Now LibreOffice compiles just fine under Solaris and there
> are packages
> for all variants of Solaris including the Open version. In a nutshell,
> some people
> listen and care about any user while some others just don't give a
> dime...
>
> Regards,
> A.S.
[orcmid]
The Apache OpenOffice project does not have the capacity for what you are able to find elsewhere.
As you know, the Apache OpenOffice project has never provided a Solaris distribution, although there were folks who managed to build one themselves.
The same goes for OS/2, although OS/2 patches are contributed back upstream.
There are probably other efforts that we simply don't know about.
The question I am left with is this: If a cousin development provides what you want, why are you not satisfied with that?
- Dennis
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
ΑΠ: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by Απόστολος Συρόπουλος <as...@hotmail.com>.
>> Greetings, dear AOO community.
>>
>> Please note first that this message is not supposed to be flaimbait or
>> trolling of any kind.
>
>It is. Have a nice day.
Well it is not! I am Solaris user and sometime ago I tried to compile OpenOffice, when
in fact it should compile on Solaris out-of-the-box... I asked the core developers
to drop support for SunStudio since it assumes one compiles with a version that
shipped with Solaris 9 (the current version of Solaris is 11 and Solaris 9 was eoled a
few years ago...) and it does not compile even with recent versions of SunStudio.
And when I managed to compile everything, I had noticed that OpenOffice could
not open docx and othe zipped document formats. The people of LibreOffice
asked me to incorporate my patches to their source tree (I had of course no
objection). Now LibreOffice compiles just fine under Solaris and there are packages
for all variants of Solaris including the Open version. In a nutshell, some people
listen and care about any user while some others just don't give a dime...
Regards,
A.S.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com>.
On 8/3/16, Christoph Reg <re...@theduke.at> wrote:
> Greetings, dear AOO community.
>
> Please note first that this message is not supposed to be flaimbait or
> trolling of any kind.
It is. Have a nice day.
FC
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by toki <to...@gmail.com>.
On 03/08/2016 19:22, Phillip Rhodes wrote:
> Personally I think it would be ideal if the two projects could/would freely
> share code, but due to the license conflict, AOO can't reuse code
> from LO unless the author(s) is/are willing to also license it
At this stage, there are enough differences between the two, that code
submitted to one of the projects usually has to be rewritten for other
project, which is usually fairly trivial.
I have not yet done my August "examine new extensions". In July, there
were roughly half a dozen extensions for LibO that were not installable
in AOo, with another half a dozen or so that were not testable, because
they were Windows only.
As far as templates go, there are two or three for LibO, that won't
function with AOo. (Mainly Calc. Major issue is column constraints in
AOo.) I'm not aware of any AOo templates that won't function with LibO.
jonathon
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by Phillip Rhodes <mo...@gmail.com>.
This isn't a competition to be "won" or "lost". AOO and LO aren't really
competing.
AOO is for people who want an awesome office suite that's licensed under
a permissive license. LO is for people who want the same under a copyleft
license. Two different audiences, two different projects.
Personally I think it would be ideal if the two projects could/would freely
share code, but due to the license conflict, AOO can't reuse code
from LO unless the author(s) is/are willing to also license it under the
ALv2. My understanding is that most LO contributors aren't willing to do
so.
OTOH, they can freely use contributions made to AOO, which is a slight
advantage to them.
All of that said, I wish people would just forget the bickering between the
two
projects, and try to find ways to work together cooperatively. Personally
I don't give
two shits about the history of LO/AOO, the fork, any controversy involving
Sun, Oracle, StarOffice, etc. I just want awesome F/OSS software. And
as far as I'm concerned, the more the merrier.
Phil
This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM
On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think OpenOffice has the larger install base even if LO has much of the
> Linux desktop distro installs.
> AOO is still attracting developers and other project members.
> There may be a finite audience for office suites, but it is a very large
> audience.
>
> Wolf Halton
> Mobile/Text 678-687-6104
>
> --
> Sent from my iPhone. Creative word completion courtesy of Apple, Inc.
>
> > On Aug 3, 2016, at 14:02, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> >> Regardless of why or how,
> >> when it comes to development, it's clear that LO has won.
> >
> > LO is only a fork. OO is the original and will always be the original.
> That's the fact.
> >
> >> What are your views on this?
> >
> > LO is the fork, not OpenOffice.
> >
> > We should never forget how members of TDF have members of Apache
> OpenOffice attacked with words. We should never forget what lies were
> spread about OpenOffice so that LO is better off.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gretings.
> > Jörg
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
>
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>.
I think OpenOffice has the larger install base even if LO has much of the Linux desktop distro installs.
AOO is still attracting developers and other project members.
There may be a finite audience for office suites, but it is a very large audience.
Wolf Halton
Mobile/Text 678-687-6104
--
Sent from my iPhone. Creative word completion courtesy of Apple, Inc.
> On Aug 3, 2016, at 14:02, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>> Regardless of why or how,
>> when it comes to development, it's clear that LO has won.
>
> LO is only a fork. OO is the original and will always be the original. That's the fact.
>
>> What are your views on this?
>
> LO is the fork, not OpenOffice.
>
> We should never forget how members of TDF have members of Apache OpenOffice attacked with words. We should never forget what lies were spread about OpenOffice so that LO is better off.
>
>
>
> Gretings.
> Jörg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
Re: Merge with LibreOffice?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
> Regardless of why or how,
> when it comes to development, it's clear that LO has won.
LO is only a fork. OO is the original and will always be the original. That's the fact.
> What are your views on this?
LO is the fork, not OpenOffice.
We should never forget how members of TDF have members of Apache OpenOffice attacked with words. We should never forget what lies were spread about OpenOffice so that LO is better off.
Gretings.
Jörg
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org