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Posted to community@apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2002/12/01 12:04:36 UTC
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Ben Hyde wrote:
>> 'community.apache.org' web site.
>
> -1
Uh, thanks Ben. That helped a lot understanding the reasons behind your
negative vote.
Several things were put on the table:
1) potential non-asf-ralated material
2) content imposition
3) fact -> vote
4) -1 without reason
5) automatic redirection breaks existing content
6) people.apache.org
I'll reply to all of these in this message for brevity:
1) we already have committers homepages. so either we close those down,
or I don't see any reason for people starting to misbehave from this
point on. my proposal is just bring coherence to something that grew out
by itself.
2) my proposal contained 'suggestions' and there would be no way for
anybody to force somebody to adhere to some standard. I perfectly know
that all of us are lazy butts and I know all of us become overly
defensive when things are 'imposed'.
But there is no imposition on a suggestion.
3) read how the title starts. "proposal" means "let's start a
discussion" and "place your vote" means "tell me what you think,
honest". It might sound a little arrogant to some, but I much rather
prefer to cut the crap and get things done. Since this proposal will
impact all committers, I wanted to hear what everybody here perceived it
and so I started a proposal.
Again, I don't see the need to become defensive.
4) as a rule on the development communities where I happen to hang
around, a -1 without a reason can be ignored without a reason.
Being this a much wider community, I much rather ask the *reason* why I
negative vote has been placed without a reason. Ben, your turn.
5) automatic redirection was proposed a way to unify URI spaces of the
current homepages. Since no content will be imposed (everybody can have
whatever they want on their pages), I don't see why this should be a problem
6) since this list is the mail list representation of that web site, I
thought that community.apache.org was a better name since it matches the
mail list one.
Your turn, people.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>
> My point is that quite a number of people won't have the time
> (or inclination) to do so. And because they don't, they aren't
> listed*.
:
> Currently the list (auto created) on Kens page holds about
> 40 committers. How many committers do we have in total?
> Somewhere between 550 and 600. 40 isn't exactly an accurate
> representation of our community, is it?
so the issue is painting the list as being representative, then?
fine; we just mark it as 'asf people who have bothered to list
pages here.'
> I'm not. I'm just saying that on the members page _all_ members
> are listed.
what's the relevance? the members page says 'these are the members'.
i don't recall seeing anyone say the list of ~name pages was to
be labeled 'these are the asf committers'. quite otherwise, in fact;
i've seen suggestions that it be clearly marked as incomplete and
opt-in.
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> Sent: 01 December 2002 22:49
>> Sander Striker wrote:
>> Right now the homepages aren't linked to from anywhere and certainly
>> not promoted. Creating the dns entry will seem like promoting the use
>> of the homepages.
>
> Yes, that's exactly the intention.
>
>> "people".apache.org or "community".apache.org will imply that such a domain
>> entails all the people of the ASF or the entire community of the ASF.
>
> It's damn easy to create a list of all committers and provide links only
> for those who happen to have their ASF homepage available. That solves
> 'in/out' problems.
>
>> This simply can never be true since not everyone has time to create and maintain
>> a 'community' area in his homepage area.
>
> It's up to you to partecipate in this, but I don't see why the fact that
> you don't have time should limit others in their ability to be more
> community friendly.
I'm not saying that.
>> Some of us barely have spare time
>> and are likely to contribute to their projects rather than maintain their
>> 'community' area.
>
> Fair, then don't do so.
My point is that quite a number of people won't have the time (or inclination)
to do so. And because they don't, they aren't listed*.
>> So, in the end, only the people with lots of time on
>> their hands, or simply the most vocal ones, will (likely) be perceived (by
>> visitors of community.apache.org) to _be_ the ASF, instead of a few faces
>> within the ASF.
>
> pfff, if I lack the time to partecipate in a mail list discussion should
> I propose to shut the mail list off until I have enough time?
Bah, I'm quite sure you got my point. Currently the list (auto created) on
Kens page holds about 40 committers. How many committers do we have in total?
Somewhere between 550 and 600. 40 isn't exactly an accurate representation
of our community, is it?
>> I'm moving my -0 to a -1 on this basis. It would be something else if
>> community.apache.org were only accessible by committers...
>
> Sander: since the ASF was created, this page
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
>
> contains the list of all members and not all of them have the
> time/will/energy/whatever to maintain an ASF-related homepage (I'm one
> of them, BTW).
>
> Nobody ever said that those linked ones receive more attention than the
> others. I hope you are not implying this.
I'm not. I'm just saying that on the members page _all_ members are listed.
> I agree with you that ASF 'visibility' should not be a function of
> whether or not you have a homepage setup.
Exactly.
> So, just like you don't stop discussions if you don't have time, but you
> still receive messages, I would suggest that we list *all* committers,
> but then we link only those who do have an ASF-related homepage setup.
>
> Does that remove your fears?
Some of them. I feel others have voiced things in line with my views
so I'm not going to duplicate that.
Sander
*) This is addressed in the last paragraph of this mail and in my reply
to Sam.
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> The ASF I wish to be a part of is one and/or create is one that
> tolerates differences in points of view or approach to solving problems.
Amen.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
"Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> writes:
> > The ASF I wish to be a part of is one and/or create is one that
> > tolerates differences in points of view or approach to solving
> > problems.
>
> +1 - These are the words of wisdom and they are delicious.
+1 as well. IMO it's a well-informed position:
google("reactance" "cognitive dissonance" "social comparison")
Food for thought.
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> The ASF I wish to be a part of is one and/or create is one that
> tolerates differences in points of view or approach to solving problems.
+1 - These are the words of wisdom and they are delicious. Thank you sam.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
David Reid wrote:
>
>>>>>>file://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd be more comfortable if the individual committer pages were
>>>>>hosted outside the apache.org domain, as is the case with this
>>>>>example. - ben
>>>>
>>>>With a few notable exceptions, for example:
>>>>http://www.apache.org/~fielding/
>>>
>>>http://www.apache.org/~stefano/
>>
>>Oh, are we keeping score? If we are I'll have to point out that
>>somebody is hosting .doc files on his pages at apache.org. That's
>>worth some points isn't it?
>>
>>Humor aside what point are you folks making?
>
> I've given up trying to figure that out as well...
I was *NOT* trying to be funny.
As I said at the Town Hall meeting of the ApacheCon... I am a committer,
a PMC chair, a member, and a director... and for none of these roles
does there seem to be a rulebook.
Now here we have Ben Hyde saying that he is concerned what impact there
would be on the ASF if committers were allowed to have personal pages
hosted by the ASF.
Meanwhile, the then chair of the ASF has long since hosted his favorite
board games, sports, and quotes on www.apache.org.
Is that clear enough? If not, the point I was really trying to make was
best expressed by Ken:
> someone tries to force its opinion on me about how i may choose to
> express myself and describe my participation in the asf, i tell it to sod
> off in no uncertain terms. if someone doesn't like it, then it should
> a) not do it, and b) not look at others. but don't obstruct people who
> think the idea has value, particularly since it won't affect *you* in any way.
> (generic 'you' there, not anyone in mind at all.
The ASF I wish to be a part of is one and/or create is one that
tolerates differences in points of view or approach to solving problems.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by David Reid <dr...@jetnet.co.uk>.
> On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 05:50 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > Sam Ruby wrote:
> >> Ben Hyde wrote:
> >>>> file://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
> >>>
> >>> I'd be more comfortable if the individual committer pages were
> >>> hosted outside the apache.org domain, as is the case with this
> >>> example. - ben
> >> With a few notable exceptions, for example:
> >> http://www.apache.org/~fielding/
> >
> > http://www.apache.org/~stefano/
>
> Oh, are we keeping score? If we are I'll have to point out that
> somebody is hosting .doc files on his pages at apache.org. That's
> worth some points isn't it?
>
> Humor aside what point are you folks making?
I've given up trying to figure that out as well...
david
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 05:50 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>> Ben Hyde wrote:
>>>> //www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
>>>
>>> I'd be more comfortable if the individual committer pages were
>>> hosted outside the apache.org domain, as is the case with this
>>> example. - ben
>> With a few notable exceptions, for example:
>> http://www.apache.org/~fielding/
>
> http://www.apache.org/~stefano/
Oh, are we keeping score? If we are I'll have to point out that
somebody is hosting .doc files on his pages at apache.org. That's
worth some points isn't it?
Humor aside what point are you folks making?
- ben
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Ben Hyde wrote:
>
>>> //www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
>>
>>
>> I'd be more comfortable if the individual committer pages were
>> hosted outside the apache.org domain, as is the case with this
>> example. - ben
>
>
> With a few notable exceptions, for example:
> http://www.apache.org/~fielding/
or
http://www.apache.org/~stefano/
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Ben Hyde wrote:
>> //www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
>
> I'd be more comfortable if the individual committer pages were
> hosted outside the apache.org domain, as is the case with this
> example. - ben
With a few notable exceptions, for example: http://www.apache.org/~fielding/
- Sam Ruby
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Sun, 1 Dec 2002, Ben Hyde wrote:
> > //www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
>
> I'd be more comfortable if the individual committer pages were
> hosted outside the apache.org domain, as is the case with this
> example. - ben
But then again - I am quite happy with the ~dirkx usage for unofficial,
informal yet somehow apache related bits I need to distribute. I'd like to
keep a mechanism like that in place.
Dw
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
> //www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
I'd be more comfortable if the individual committer pages were
hosted outside the apache.org domain, as is the case with this
example. - ben
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>>From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@apache.org]
>>Sent: 01 December 2002 16:34
>
>
>>Yeah.. I'm confused...what does ANY of the issues brought up have to do
>>with creating the dns entry? It seems some folks are voting/debating
>>the home directories themselves. Those are already there and I assume
>>that decision was already made. I suppose you could propose they be
>>shut down, but I DON'T see what creating the DNS entry has to do with
>>that... But I'm kinda dull, so maybe if someone explains it, I'll get it.
>
>
> Right now the homepages aren't linked to from anywhere and certainly
> not promoted. Creating the dns entry will seem like promoting the use
> of the homepages.
Yes, that's exactly the intention.
> "people".apache.org or "community".apache.org will imply that such a domain
> entails all the people of the ASF or the entire community of the ASF.
It's damn easy to create a list of all committers and provide links only
for those who happen to have their ASF homepage available. That solves
'in/out' problems.
> This
> simply can never be true since not everyone has time to create and maintain
> a 'community' area in his homepage area.
It's up to you to partecipate in this, but I don't see why the fact that
you don't have time should limit others in their ability to be more
community friendly.
> Some of us barely have spare time
> and are likely to contribute to their projects rather than maintain their
> 'community' area.
Fair, then don't do so.
> So, in the end, only the people with lots of time on
> their hands, or simply the most vocal ones, will (likely) be perceived (by
> visitors of community.apache.org) to _be_ the ASF, instead of a few faces
> within the ASF.
pfff, if I lack the time to partecipate in a mail list discussion should
I propose to shut the mail list off until I have enough time?
> I'm moving my -0 to a -1 on this basis. It would be something else if
> community.apache.org were only accessible by committers...
Sander: since the ASF was created, this page
http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
contains the list of all members and not all of them have the
time/will/energy/whatever to maintain an ASF-related homepage (I'm one
of them, BTW).
Nobody ever said that those linked ones receive more attention than the
others. I hope you are not implying this.
I agree with you that ASF 'visibility' should not be a function of
whether or not you have a homepage setup.
So, just like you don't stop discussions if you don't have time, but you
still receive messages, I would suggest that we list *all* committers,
but then we link only those who do have an ASF-related homepage setup.
Does that remove your fears?
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Sunday, December 1, 2002 1:53 PM -0500 Rodent of Unusual Size
<Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
> ick to what? its existence, or the format? :-)
Its existence and the fact that Andy is on a campaign to get Google
to pick up on it. -- justin
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
> --On Sunday, December 1, 2002 12:55 PM -0500 Rodent of Unusual Size
> <Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
>
> > <url:http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/people.html>, updated nightly, and
> > certainly transformable into a more 'official' process.
>
> Oh, ick. -- justin
ick to what? its existence, or the format? :-)
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Sunday, December 1, 2002 12:55 PM -0500 Rodent of Unusual Size
<Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
> Sander Striker wrote:
>>
>> Right now the homepages aren't linked to from anywhere and
>> certainly not promoted.
>
> <url:http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/people.html>, updated nightly, and
> certainly transformable into a more 'official' process.
Oh, ick. -- justin
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Monday, December 02, 2002 16:31:56 -0500 Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>
wrote:
> So, why not either (1) remove the anoncvs symbolic link, or (2) remove
> the name from the avail file. Either action will cause these entries to
> disappear from this generated page.
>
> Clearly, side files can be created to address this, but I find processes
> such as these provide insightful perspectives into the way things are set
> up that may motivate people to DoTheRightThing(TM).
Well, the reason I wouldn't do that is that I don't want to prohibit people
from checking them out (or, gasp!, committing a change to it). My point is
that those repositories aren't active in any sense of the word. But, I
don't think we should stop people from browsing them if they encounter it
somehow. But, I think it clutters the output of the pages. (Perhaps with
the private repos omitted, it may not be as cluttered.)
> The visual clues are not overwhelming, and at the Town Hall we heard some
> say that they were not aware that there was such a thing as ASF
> membership. As I understand it from discussions with a number of people
> at ApacheCon, the overall goal is to get everyone who both "gets it" and
> appears likely to be sticking around for a while to become a member.
> Perhaps, this will provide a subtle push.
Perhaps, but I think raising the level of awareness by committers about the
presence of members can be done in other ways. To me, it just looks like
we're creating a distinction where it might not be beneficial to have one.
Yet, it's not a big deal. I'm just not sure I'd do it that way if I were
doing it. "Best damn moose turd pie." -- justin
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
>> 'nother thought. do we want to include in the karma column modules
>> which aren't available through anoncvs/viewcvs?
>
> Yeah, I was thinking the same thing - we shouldn't include ones that
> aren't publically available. Perhaps we should have a list of 'dead'
> CVS repositories to exclude - for example, apache-1.2 isn't active any
> more...
So, why not either (1) remove the anoncvs symbolic link, or (2) remove
the name from the avail file. Either action will cause these entries to
disappear from this generated page.
Clearly, side files can be created to address this, but I find processes
such as these provide insightful perspectives into the way things are
set up that may motivate people to DoTheRightThing(TM).
> My only other comment would be not to bold ASF members. There's no good
> reason (IMHO) to distinguish them here.
I won't take credit for this, but I must admit that I kinda like it.
The visual clues are not overwhelming, and at the Town Hall we heard
some say that they were not aware that there was such a thing as ASF
membership. As I understand it from discussions with a number of people
at ApacheCon, the overall goal is to get everyone who both "gets it" and
appears likely to be sticking around for a while to become a member.
Perhaps, this will provide a subtle push.
Meanwhile, there undoubtably are cases where someone like Jim is looking
up an id and would find it useful to know if the person is a member.
This provides a such information all in one place.
> If I get time, I might take a pass at Sam's perl script and tweaking it
> accordingly. If someone beats me, great. =)
>
> Other than that, it's a great step in the right direction! Go Sam! =)
Thanks!
- Sam Ruby
P.S. I posted some meta commentary on this discussion on the web. It
shouldn't be very hard to find. ;-)
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Monday, December 02, 2002 15:22:19 -0500 Rodent of Unusual Size
<Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
> 'nother thought. do we want to include in the karma column modules
> which aren't available through anoncvs/viewcvs?
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing - we shouldn't include ones that aren't
publically available. Perhaps we should have a list of 'dead' CVS
repositories to exclude - for example, apache-1.2 isn't active any more...
My only other comment would be not to bold ASF members. There's no good
reason (IMHO) to distinguish them here.
If I get time, I might take a pass at Sam's perl script and tweaking it
accordingly. If someone beats me, great. =)
Other than that, it's a great step in the right direction! Go Sam! =) --
justin
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> 'nother thought. do we want to include in the karma column modules
> which aren't available through anoncvs/viewcvs?
Fixed.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
'nother thought. do we want to include in the karma column modules
which aren't available through anoncvs/viewcvs?
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
James Strachan wrote:
> From: "Ben Laurie" <be...@algroup.co.uk>
>
>>James Strachan wrote:
>>
>>>From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
>>>
>>>>Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>In the case of Maven, it would seem to me that a <bio/> or
>>>>>>
> <homepage/>
>
>>>>>>>element inside <developer/> elements in project.xml files would be
>>>>>>
> most
>
>>>>>>>appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Working on adding <url/> element as we speak.
>>>>>
>>>>>Gah; bike shedding at work! Just having each project (and the
>>>>>member list) keep it updated via their own pages seems much simpler
>>>>>and in a very simple way it makes it clear that the committer did an
>>>>>opt-in.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, I don't believe so. The proposed <url/> element will
>>>>presumably be added to the input source from which the Maven Project
>>>>Team page is generated. It will still be up to the individual to
>>>>explicitly provide it, and will be monitored and maintained by the
>>>
>>>project.
>>>
>>>
>>>>After that point, one of us will screen scrape it. ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>You won't need to screen scrape. You could use XPath / XSLT...
>>>
>>>http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-turbine-maven/project.xml?rev=HEAD
>>>
>>>search for //developer
>>>
>>>Looks like there'll be a new <homepage> element in there soon too...
>>
>>Doesn't this lead to loads of duplication of developer info? Surely they
>>need to be included by reference?
>
>
> Agreed. Thats why I was arguing for a single canonical place (a single
> developer.xml file available on the web) where all Apache committer info can
> be put and then reused on each project.
That was step #2 of the need for a coherent and carefully planned
community.apache.org web site.
But I'm somewhat tired of pushing against those rubber walls of
irrational conservationism to create consensus.
As usual, I'll try to be more creative and less predictable to tunnel
thru those rubbber walls :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Ben Laurie" <be...@algroup.co.uk>
> James Strachan wrote:
> > From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> >
> >>Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>In the case of Maven, it would seem to me that a <bio/> or
<homepage/>
> >>>>>element inside <developer/> elements in project.xml files would be
most
> >>>>>appropriate.
> >>>>
> >>>>Working on adding <url/> element as we speak.
> >>>
> >>>Gah; bike shedding at work! Just having each project (and the
> >>>member list) keep it updated via their own pages seems much simpler
> >>>and in a very simple way it makes it clear that the committer did an
> >>>opt-in.
> >>
> >>Actually, I don't believe so. The proposed <url/> element will
> >>presumably be added to the input source from which the Maven Project
> >>Team page is generated. It will still be up to the individual to
> >>explicitly provide it, and will be monitored and maintained by the
> >
> > project.
> >
> >>After that point, one of us will screen scrape it. ;-)
> >
> >
> > You won't need to screen scrape. You could use XPath / XSLT...
> >
> > http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-turbine-maven/project.xml?rev=HEAD
> >
> > search for //developer
> >
> > Looks like there'll be a new <homepage> element in there soon too...
>
> Doesn't this lead to loads of duplication of developer info? Surely they
> need to be included by reference?
Agreed. Thats why I was arguing for a single canonical place (a single
developer.xml file available on the web) where all Apache committer info can
be put and then reused on each project.
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
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Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
James Strachan wrote:
> From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
>
>>Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
>>
>>>>>In the case of Maven, it would seem to me that a <bio/> or <homepage/>
>>>>>element inside <developer/> elements in project.xml files would be most
>>>>>appropriate.
>>>>
>>>>Working on adding <url/> element as we speak.
>>>
>>>Gah; bike shedding at work! Just having each project (and the
>>>member list) keep it updated via their own pages seems much simpler
>>>and in a very simple way it makes it clear that the committer did an
>>>opt-in.
>>
>>Actually, I don't believe so. The proposed <url/> element will
>>presumably be added to the input source from which the Maven Project
>>Team page is generated. It will still be up to the individual to
>>explicitly provide it, and will be monitored and maintained by the
>
> project.
>
>>After that point, one of us will screen scrape it. ;-)
>
>
> You won't need to screen scrape. You could use XPath / XSLT...
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-turbine-maven/project.xml?rev=HEAD
>
> search for //developer
>
> Looks like there'll be a new <homepage> element in there soon too...
Doesn't this lead to loads of duplication of developer info? Surely they
need to be included by reference?
Cheers,
Ben.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@karmalab.org>.
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, James Strachan wrote:
> You won't need to screen scrape. You could use XPath / XSLT...
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-turbine-maven/project.xml?rev=HEAD
>
> search for //developer
>
> Looks like there'll be a new <homepage> element in there soon too...
It's actually a <url> element and its in there now. :)
-Kurt
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
> >
> >>>In the case of Maven, it would seem to me that a <bio/> or <homepage/>
> >>>element inside <developer/> elements in project.xml files would be most
> >>>appropriate.
> >>
> >>Working on adding <url/> element as we speak.
> >
> > Gah; bike shedding at work! Just having each project (and the
> > member list) keep it updated via their own pages seems much simpler
> > and in a very simple way it makes it clear that the committer did an
> > opt-in.
>
> Actually, I don't believe so. The proposed <url/> element will
> presumably be added to the input source from which the Maven Project
> Team page is generated. It will still be up to the individual to
> explicitly provide it, and will be monitored and maintained by the
project.
>
> After that point, one of us will screen scrape it. ;-)
You won't need to screen scrape. You could use XPath / XSLT...
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-turbine-maven/project.xml?rev=HEAD
search for //developer
Looks like there'll be a new <homepage> element in there soon too...
James
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Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@karmalab.org>.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Actually, I don't believe so. The proposed <url/> element will
> presumably be added to the input source from which the Maven Project
> Team page is generated. It will still be up to the individual to
> explicitly provide it, and will be monitored and maintained by the project.
Yep.
> After that point, one of us will screen scrape it. ;-)
Or just pull it directly from the Maven project.xml file in CVS. :-)
-Kurt
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
>
>>>In the case of Maven, it would seem to me that a <bio/> or <homepage/>
>>>element inside <developer/> elements in project.xml files would be most
>>>appropriate.
>>
>>Working on adding <url/> element as we speak.
>
> Gah; bike shedding at work! Just having each project (and the
> member list) keep it updated via their own pages seems much simpler
> and in a very simple way it makes it clear that the committer did an
> opt-in.
Actually, I don't believe so. The proposed <url/> element will
presumably be added to the input source from which the Maven Project
Team page is generated. It will still be up to the individual to
explicitly provide it, and will be monitored and maintained by the project.
After that point, one of us will screen scrape it. ;-)
- Sam Ruby
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Ask Bjoern Hansen <as...@perl.org>.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Kurt Schrader wrote:
> > In the case of Maven, it would seem to me that a <bio/> or <homepage/>
> > element inside <developer/> elements in project.xml files would be most
> > appropriate.
>
> Working on adding <url/> element as we speak.
Gah; bike shedding at work! Just having each project (and the
member list) keep it updated via their own pages seems much simpler
and in a very simple way it makes it clear that the committer did an
opt-in.
- ask
--
ask bjoern hansen, http://askbjoernhansen.com/ !try;
develooper llc, http://www.develooper.com/ do();
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@karmalab.org>.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Sam Ruby wrote:
> In the case of Maven, it would seem to me that a <bio/> or <homepage/>
> element inside <developer/> elements in project.xml files would be most
> appropriate.
Working on adding <url/> element as we speak.
-Kurt
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
James Strachan wrote:
>
> Actually now my brain's engaging (sorry its been one of those days) - maybe
> Sam's script could create a committers.xml file that things like the Maven
> build could use to auto-link to committers home pages (if available)?
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
I'm looking for a set of pages from which I can gather links. To date,
I am mining information from:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/
I'd like the sources to be maintained by the committer, and monitored by
the community/ies in which that committer participates. In the case of
Maven, it would seem to me that a <bio/> or <homepage/> element inside
<developer/> elements in project.xml files would be most appropriate.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > All in all, my suggestion is that if no URL is provided, then treat this
> > as an indication that no further information is available.
>
> Maybe you could provide on top of
> http://cvs.apache.org/~rubys/committers.html a brief summary of the how
> & when of this script?
Actually now my brain's engaging (sorry its been one of those days) - maybe
Sam's script could create a committers.xml file that things like the Maven
build could use to auto-link to committers home pages (if available)?
James
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Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> All in all, my suggestion is that if no URL is provided, then treat this
> as an indication that no further information is available.
Maybe you could provide on top of
http://cvs.apache.org/~rubys/committers.html a brief summary of the how
& when of this script?
- when it is run (cron?)
- where it gathers info:
- /etc/passwd
- avail
- http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html
- some project-specific html pages
That way, we know what to do to when we want our info (i.e. homepage) to
be updated.
</Steven>
--
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Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> James Strachan wrote:
> >
> > Incidentally we could get Maven to automatically generate URLs of the
form
> >
> > http://www.apache.org/~username/
> >
> > then it'd be the apache committer's responsibility to create either a
> > .forward or a html home page. How's that sound?
>
> It seems to me that you would generate a lot of 404's. And the
> consensus from the discussion that lead up to this prototype is that
> links should be explicitly opt in, and that people should be encouraged
> to host them off site (note: some expressed this in more stronger terms,
> others expressed a more tolerant view). Also, not all committers have
> access to daedalus, and some people have hosted other content there
> without intending it to be a home page.
>
> All in all, my suggestion is that if no URL is provided, then treat this
> as an indication that no further information is available.
OK. For now we can just hand-edit these URLs on a project by project basis.
One other idea. Maybe we could have an apache-wide canonical place
(hopefully in a little XML document) where all the locations of the home
pages of apache committers are kept. Then Maven could suck out the URLs from
there as a standard part of the build. Then apache committers only need to
specify where their home page is once and it follows them to any Maven-built
apache project (or other build systems like Ant or Forrest or other websites
etc).
We could maybe extend this canonical document to include a few other bits of
information about committers.
e.g.
<people>
<person id="ruby">
<name>Sam Ruby</name>
<organisation>IBM</organisation>
<url>http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/</url>
<location>...</location>
</person>
<person id="jstrachan">
<name>James Strachan</name>
<organisation>SpiritSoft</organisation>
<url>http://www.apache.org/~jstrachan/</url>
<location>London, UK</location>
</person>
...
</people>
We could then use this document to create a more detailed members.html page.
The above may seem a little over the top - I'm just thinking that lots of
apache contributors work on several projects and the chances of keeping this
information up to date for each committer on all their projects is slim.
James
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Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
James Strachan wrote:
>
> Incidentally we could get Maven to automatically generate URLs of the form
>
> http://www.apache.org/~username/
>
> then it'd be the apache committer's responsibility to create either a
> .forward or a html home page. How's that sound?
It seems to me that you would generate a lot of 404's. And the
consensus from the discussion that lead up to this prototype is that
links should be explicitly opt in, and that people should be encouraged
to host them off site (note: some expressed this in more stronger terms,
others expressed a more tolerant view). Also, not all committers have
access to daedalus, and some people have hosted other content there
without intending it to be a home page.
All in all, my suggestion is that if no URL is provided, then treat this
as an indication that no further information is available.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> Kurt Schrader wrote:
> >
> >>Meanwhile, I see that you are a committer on Maven. What would be
> >>excellent is if the following page were made more complete and expanded
> >>to include more information on the individuals involved:
> >>
> >>http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/team-list.html
> >
> > That page is automatically generated. What other information would you
> > like to see on it?
>
> At a minimum, a URL where I can find out more about the individual.
Incidentally we could get Maven to automatically generate URLs of the form
http://www.apache.org/~username/
then it'd be the apache committer's responsibility to create either a
.forward or a html home page. How's that sound?
I'm just thinking of all the various projects at Jakarta which use Maven
(mostly in Commons or Turbine), they'd all get this change automatically
next time they created their websites with the next version of Maven.
James
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Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
James Strachan wrote:
>
> We could extend the Maven-generated page to show the location
> of developers like httpd.
heh. i would *really* like to see dots on a global map.
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> Kurt Schrader wrote:
> >
> >>Meanwhile, I see that you are a committer on Maven. What would be
> >>excellent is if the following page were made more complete and expanded
> >>to include more information on the individuals involved:
> >>
> >>http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/team-list.html
> >
> > That page is automatically generated. What other information would you
> > like to see on it?
>
> At a minimum, a URL where I can find out more about the individual.
That should be pretty easy to do - and to do this on any Apache project that
uses Maven to build its software & site.
> Alternatively, here's an example of what httpd project provides by way
> of introduction to it's contributors:
>
> http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/#coar
>
> (I selected Ken's entry as his information looked a bit more complete
> than others).
We could extend the Maven-generated page to show the location of developers
like httpd. We could also add a comments section where any other pertinent
information about the committers or contributors could be shown (interests,
expertise, description of contributions etc). Does this sound OK with folks?
If so I'll have an attempt at implementing this (for starters) on the Maven
project tomorrow.
James
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RE: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Tom Copeland <to...@infoether.com>.
> <snip>
> At a minimum, a URL where I can find out more about the individual.
> <snip>
Here ya go:
http://cvs.apache.org/~tcopeland/
There's not much there, but is that the sort of thing you're looking
for?
Maybe we can add a URL to the Maven "project object model" thingy....
Thanks,
Tom
RE: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Alternatively, here's an example of what httpd project provides by way
> of introduction to it's contributors:
Do I see the following (as a concept)?
<Contributors>
<Contributor>
<name> </name>
<email> </email>
<url> </url>
<organization> </organization>
<occupation> </occupation>
<location> </location>
<comments> </comments>
<osexpertise> </osexpertise>
<projects>
<project>
<contributions> </contributions>
<role> </role>
</project>
</projects>
</Contributor>
</Contributors>
I won't get into whether things should be elements or attributes just now.
This is just a concept, and similar to what is already in the Maven project
structure, if I recall Dion's demo correctly from CSS 2002.
The <role> value is intended to encode a community role such as Committer,
Release Manager (with release name), etc.
The <projects> element normalizes the information if there were to be a
central repository, as well as supporting sub-projects.
--- Noel
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Kurt Schrader wrote:
>
>>Meanwhile, I see that you are a committer on Maven. What would be
>>excellent is if the following page were made more complete and expanded
>>to include more information on the individuals involved:
>>
>>http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/team-list.html
>
> That page is automatically generated. What other information would you
> like to see on it?
At a minimum, a URL where I can find out more about the individual.
Alternatively, here's an example of what httpd project provides by way
of introduction to it's contributors:
http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/#coar
(I selected Ken's entry as his information looked a bit more complete
than others).
- Sam Ruby
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@karmalab.org>.
On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Meanwhile, I see that you are a committer on Maven. What would be
> excellent is if the following page were made more complete and expanded
> to include more information on the individuals involved:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/team-list.html
That page is automatically generated. What other information would you
like to see on it?
-Kurt
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Tom Copeland wrote:
>
> I had the same problem as James when I tried to check out the site
> module....
James was recently inducted as an Apache Member, but apparently his unix
commit privs have not yet caught up with that status, but hopefully will
shortly. For more details on what membership is all about, see the
first few paragraphs on http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html .
Meanwhile, I see that you are a committer on Maven. What would be
excellent is if the following page were made more complete and expanded
to include more information on the individuals involved:
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/team-list.html
If this were done, I would gladly aggregate the results back into the
ASF wide committer list.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
>> (/home/cvs/site/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
This should be built from something in the private
committers repository?
RE: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Tom Copeland <to...@infoether.com>.
Here's a diff if someone could pls add my information:
=====================
> diff foo.txt new.txt
71a72,74
> <li><strong><a href="http://cvs.apache.org/~tcopeland/">Tom
Copeland</a></strong>, <a
> href="http://www.infoether.com/">InfoEther</a></li>
=====================
I had the same problem as James when I tried to check out the site
module....
Thanks,
Tom
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Strachan [mailto:james_strachan@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 3:59 AM
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
>
>
> From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> > James Strachan wrote:
> > >
> > > Which is the correct mail list to submit patches to the
> members.xml
> file?
> > > Just in case this is the one, I've attached a patch :-).
> > >
> > > Would members@apache.org be more appropriate?
> >
> > James, while the patch has already been applied for you,
>
> Thanks Sander!
>
> > take a look at:
> >
> > http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/site/xdocs/foundation/members.xml
> >
> > As a member, you have commit access.
>
> I originally tried to apply the patch directly myself but got
> the following
> message when trying to checkout the site module, so I figured
> I didn't have
> karma. Do members automatically get karma to the site module or is it
> switched on when you ask for it?
>
> jakarta> cvs co site
> cvs server: Updating site
> cvs server: failed to create lock directory for `/home/cvs/site'
> (/home/cvs/site/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
> cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository `/home/cvs/site'
> cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up
>
> James
> -------
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>
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>
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>
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Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> James Strachan wrote:
> >
> > Which is the correct mail list to submit patches to the members.xml
file?
> > Just in case this is the one, I've attached a patch :-).
> >
> > Would members@apache.org be more appropriate?
>
> James, while the patch has already been applied for you,
Thanks Sander!
> take a look at:
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/site/xdocs/foundation/members.xml
>
> As a member, you have commit access.
I originally tried to apply the patch directly myself but got the following
message when trying to checkout the site module, so I figured I didn't have
karma. Do members automatically get karma to the site module or is it
switched on when you ask for it?
jakarta> cvs co site
cvs server: Updating site
cvs server: failed to create lock directory for `/home/cvs/site'
(/home/cvs/site/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository `/home/cvs/site'
cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up
James
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Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
James Strachan wrote:
>
> Which is the correct mail list to submit patches to the members.xml file?
> Just in case this is the one, I've attached a patch :-).
>
> Would members@apache.org be more appropriate?
James, while the patch has already been applied for you, take a look at:
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/site/xdocs/foundation/members.xml
As a member, you have commit access.
- Sam Ruby
RE: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: James Strachan [mailto:james_strachan@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 03 December 2002 08:47
> From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> > Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> > > Sam Ruby wrote:
> > >
> > >>Fire away with comments, criticisms, suggestions, and most importantly,
> > >>patches. I believe that this addresses most, if not all, of the
> > >>concerns identified to date. If not, let me know.
> > >
> > > i would prefer to have my name link to my cvs.apache.org/~coar/ page.
> >
> > So update one or both of the following:
> >
> > http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/site/xdocs/foundation/members.xml
>
> Which is the correct mail list to submit patches to the members.xml file?
> Just in case this is the one, I've attached a patch :-).
>
> Would members@apache.org be more appropriate?
members@ or site-dev@. I've gone forward and committed it for you.
Sander
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org>
> Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> > Sam Ruby wrote:
> >
> >>Fire away with comments, criticisms, suggestions, and most importantly,
> >>patches. I believe that this addresses most, if not all, of the
> >>concerns identified to date. If not, let me know.
> >
> > i would prefer to have my name link to my cvs.apache.org/~coar/ page.
>
> So update one or both of the following:
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/site/xdocs/foundation/members.xml
Which is the correct mail list to submit patches to the members.xml file?
Just in case this is the one, I've attached a patch :-).
Would members@apache.org be more appropriate?
James
-------
http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>>Fire away with comments, criticisms, suggestions, and most importantly,
>>patches. I believe that this addresses most, if not all, of the
>>concerns identified to date. If not, let me know.
>
> i would prefer to have my name link to my cvs.apache.org/~coar/ page.
So update one or both of the following:
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/site/xdocs/foundation/members.xml
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/httpd-site/xdocs/contributors/index.xml
and regen and publish the site.
>>1) The links were lovingly screen scraped
>
> so this isn't data-driven? feh. should be. future rev.
It is very much data-driven. It just is opportunistic and uses existing
data sources instead of requiring yet another repository which is less
likely to be maintained and/or have the appropriate level of oversight.
A ripe area for future exploration is a common format and/or locating
scheme for community pages.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> Fire away with comments, criticisms, suggestions, and most importantly,
> patches. I believe that this addresses most, if not all, of the
> concerns identified to date. If not, let me know.
i would prefer to have my name link to my cvs.apache.org/~coar/ page.
> 1) The links were lovingly screen scraped
so this isn't data-driven? feh. should be. future rev.
RE: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@mvdb.net>.
Care to add sorting ? :) For my name it should be sorted on Bemt (or sort
everything on firstName is even better..)
mvgr,
Martin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ask Bjoern Hansen [mailto:ask@perl.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 15:14
> To: community@apache.org
> Cc: Sam Ruby
> Subject: Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
>
>
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
>
> This will be the last mail, I promise. I made the script make one
> more page, with just the names and links:
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/~ask/people.html
>
>
>
> - ask
>
> --
> ask bjoern hansen, http://askbjoernhansen.com/ !try;
> develooper llc, http://www.develooper.com/ do();
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Ask Bjoern Hansen <as...@perl.org>.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
This will be the last mail, I promise. I made the script make one
more page, with just the names and links:
http://cvs.apache.org/~ask/people.html
- ask
--
ask bjoern hansen, http://askbjoernhansen.com/ !try;
develooper llc, http://www.develooper.com/ do();
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Ask Bjoern Hansen <as...@perl.org>.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
[...]
> The "isin" sub was too much for my Perl eyes to bear, so I
> refactored the script to have nicer code, process both lists in one
> run, not call external programs and be better at finding links (the
> old version missed most of them).
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/~ask/committers.pl
oh, one more thing. It needs the LWP::Simple module. I asked root@
to install it. Until then you can run it with
export PERL5LIB=/home/ask/perl/lib
~ask/public_html/committers.pl
as I installed the module in my home dir for now.
- ask
--
ask bjoern hansen, http://askbjoernhansen.com/ !try;
develooper llc, http://www.develooper.com/ do();
Re: [RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Ask Bjoern Hansen <as...@perl.org>.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Source to the script can be found at:
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/~rubys/committers.pl
The "isin" sub was too much for my Perl eyes to bear, so I
refactored the script to have nicer code, process both lists in one
run, not call external programs and be better at finding links (the
old version missed most of them).
http://cvs.apache.org/~ask/committers.pl
the output should be the same though (except for more links):
http://cvs.apache.org/~ask/committers.html
http://cvs.apache.org/~ask/projects.html
There are still a few "foo bar=\"blah\"" entries that should be
changed to qq[foo bar="blah"] (*) but I want to sleep now...
(*) see http://archive.develooper.com/tips@perl.org/msg00003.html
- ask
--
ask bjoern hansen, http://askbjoernhansen.com/ !try;
develooper llc, http://www.develooper.com/ do();
[RFC] prototype committers list with links
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Web page can be found at:
http://cvs.apache.org/~rubys/committers.html
Source to the script can be found at:
http://cvs.apache.org/~rubys/committers.pl
Fire away with comments, criticisms, suggestions, and most importantly,
patches. I believe that this addresses most, if not all, of the
concerns identified to date. If not, let me know.
Notes:
1) The links were lovingly screen scraped from the httpd, jakarta, and
members pages. In the case where a multiple links are associated with
an id, one is chosen essentially randomly (hint: community pages which
provide actual apache user ids are taken as more authoritative as ones
that merely provide names).
2) The list is all inclusive for committers, but in order to get a link
to appear on this page you must have an entry on a community page and
furthermore provide a link (i.e., presence of links are both community
monitored/enforced and totally opt-in).
3) No validation of any kind of the content of the website referenced by
the URL is enforced.
4) People are free to "deep link" to this page in its current location,
but the ultimate goal is for this content to migrate to a more prominent
and stable location.
- Sam Ruby
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > As a new committer, I not only appreciate that view, I want to
> > know where to find the info! :-)
> keep an eye on incubator.apache.org
Will do. Will there be a reference to it from
http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html?
--- Noel
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
"Noel J. Bergman" wrote:
>
> As a new committer, I not only appreciate that view, I want to
> know where to find the info! :-)
keep an eye on incubator.apache.org
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
ROUS wrote:
> uniform education of (new) committers is one of the purposes of the
incubator
> project. documenting these things for all, including existing committers,
> is as well.
As a new committer, I not only appreciate that view, I want to know where to
find the info! :-)
--- Noel
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
"Noel J. Bergman" wrote:
>
> One that it doesn't address is Ben Hyde's view that that the chaotic "mess",
> where there are committers who don't even know that they can create a
> public_html, much less feel encouraged to do so
uniform education of (new) committers is one of the purposes of the incubator
project. documenting these things for all, including existing committers,
is as well.
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
>Ben Hyde wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > One that it doesn't address is Ben Hyde's view that that the
> > chaotic "mess", where there are committers who don't even know
> > that they can create a public_html, much less feel encouraged to do
so...
> I recall somebody having some view along those lines, but it wasn't me.
You're correct. I apologize for mis-attributing the quote.
--- Noel
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 02:39 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> One that it
> doesn't address is Ben Hyde's view that that the chaotic "mess", where
> there
> are committers who don't even know that they can create a public_html,
> much
> less feel encouraged to do so...
I recall somebody having some view along those lines, but it wasn't me.
On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 05:55 AM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> ... documenting these things for all, including existing committers,
> is as well.
A difficult and worth task.
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> The ASF has supportted .forward files for e-mail for quite some time.
> Would the mere act of putting a one line .forward file into your
> ~/public_html directory with your favorite URL be OK?
A bit more work for httpd than your "~name/public_html/community or some
such" proposal, but combined with your suggested merger of
http://www.apache.org/~jim/committers.html and ~coar/people.html, it would
appear to address most objections I noted on the thread. One that it
doesn't address is Ben Hyde's view that that the chaotic "mess", where there
are committers who don't even know that they can create a public_html, much
less feel encouraged to do so, is different from a seeming endorsement of
community pages.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> My personal experience shows that promoting personal context helps
> creating more friendly communities.
Do you believe that someone's first thought would be to look at some
centralized index, or at the project's home page? What if the contributors
list on each project were similarly (and optionally) instrumented as
proposed by Sam Ruby's suggestion (above)?
Or is that an infrastructure question, along with IM and Wiki topics?
--- Noel
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:rubys@apache.org]
> Sent: 01 December 2002 22:23
> Sander Striker wrote:
>> Which is simply not the case if not all committers and members are represented
>> on there.
>
> Here is an effort that I made last year http://cvs.apache.org/~rubys/
>
> Here is much move visually appealing and more maintained version:
> http://www.apache.org/~jim/committers.html
>
> Would starting with Jim's effort address your objections? Suppose I
> took the initiative to merge Jim and Ken's work, and come up with a page
> that looks exactly like Jim's but converted their CVS id into a
> hypertext link for individuals that chose to opt-in?
That would be fair, yes.
> The ASF has supportted .forward files for e-mail for quite some time.
And I'm glad for it. The amount of spam and unsubscription requests received
after posting to the announce@ list just isn't funny... This at least allows
me to filter on address ;).
> Would the mere act of putting a one line .forward file into your
> ~/public_html directory with your favorite URL be OK?
I don't see why not. You do imply picking up this .forward file (or .fav_url or
whatever) and putting that on a merged jim/coar page right?
Sander
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>
> Which is simply not the case if not all committers and members are represented
> on there.
Here is an effort that I made last year http://cvs.apache.org/~rubys/
Here is much move visually appealing and more maintained version:
http://www.apache.org/~jim/committers.html
Would starting with Jim's effort address your objections? Suppose I
took the initiative to merge Jim and Ken's work, and come up with a page
that looks exactly like Jim's but converted their CVS id into a
hypertext link for individuals that chose to opt-in?
The ASF has supportted .forward files for e-mail for quite some time.
Would the mere act of putting a one line .forward file into your
~/public_html directory with your favorite URL be OK?
- Sam Ruby
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Victor J. Orlikowski wrote:
>
>> Apache is about two things, as I see it: primarily, software and,
>> as a consequence of that software, people.
>
>
> I see it exactly the other way around. Great communities always create
> great software. The opposite is not always true (see sourceforge).
>
+1
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Victor J. Orlikowski wrote:
> Apache is about two things, as I see it: primarily, software and,
> as a consequence of that software, people.
I see it exactly the other way around. Great communities always create
great software. The opposite is not always true (see sourceforge).
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Victor J. Orlikowski" <vj...@dulug.duke.edu>.
On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 03:13:26PM -0600, B. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
<snip>
> I think you're missing the point here. Regardless of the verbiage
> used, if this whole community thing comes to fruition, it becomes a de
> facto representation of the face of the Apache community.
>
Indeed - all projects within Apache represent Apache, regardless
of the disclaimer and hand-waving you tack onto it. As lawyers
often say, you can't unring a bell - once someone looks at a
webpage, that will be part of that person's impression of Apache.
> FWIW, I'm -1 on the whole thing. I'm here to help grow a community
> around open-source software, not around a bunch of touchy-feely
> self-promoting web pages--if I want that, I'll join some weblog site
> somewhere. Apache.org is not the place for this.
>
Amen.
If I want to get to know someone, I'll do it the old-fashioned way
- I'll strike up a conversation, regardless of the means (e-mail,
irc, what-have-you). If one lacks the conversational skills to do
this - well, that's a personal problem.
Apache is about two things, as I see it: primarily, software and,
as a consequence of that software, people.
Apache would not exist without software; however, software does
not exist without people. We (the people) gather together within
the construct of the ASF to *write software*. Getting to know the
actors within the process is nice, and necessary to maintain the
smooth operation of the process.
I say, if people want to put up webpages to toot their horn about
what they're interested in, or to ensure that others can have
ready conversation topics when ambushing the person, or for
self-aggrandizement, fine.
But Apache is not the place for it.
(And, if it is not clear by now, I'm -1 on the whole shmooze.)
Victor
--
Victor J. Orlikowski | The Wall is Down, But the Threat Remains!
==================================================================
orlikowski@apache.org | vjo@dulug.duke.edu | vjo@us.ibm.com
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>"These are the homepages and voices of the Apache Community. These
>pages represent the committers and members of the Apache Software
>Foundation."
>
>Which is simply not the case if not all committers and members are represented
>on there.
>
Lets find a nit and pick it.
"These are the homepages and voices of the Apache Community. These
pages represent the committers and members of the Apache Software
- Foundation."
+ Foundation whom choose to express themselves here."
-Andy
>
>Sander
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> My opinions exactly match Ken's below.
Same here.
> - Sam Ruby
>
> Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>
>> it looks like several issues are getting conflated again.
>>
>> 1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
>> 2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
>> 3. should there be a list of them?
>> 4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
>> 5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one
>> does)?
>>
>> here's my personal take on these questions:
>>
>> 1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
>>
>> +1
>>
>> 2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
>>
>> -0 (+1 if it's no more than 'don't put anything here that might reflect
>> poorly on the asf')
>>
>> 3. should there be a list of them?
>>
>> +1. data-driven, either through something in peoples'
>> cvs.apache.org/~name/
>> directory, like the one-off '.nopublish' i mentioned earlier, or a
>> ~/.homepage
>> like sam (?) suggested, or whatever.
>>
>> 4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
>>
>> opt-in, of course.
>>
>> 5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one
>> does)?
>>
>> -1. someone tries to force its opinion on me about how i may choose to
>> express myself and describe my participation in the asf, i tell it to sod
>> off in no uncertain terms. if someone doesn't like it, then it should
>> a) not do it, and b) not look at others. but don't obstruct people who
>> think the idea has value, particularly since it won't affect *you* in
>> any way.
>> (generic 'you' there, not anyone in mind at all.)
expecially this!
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
My opinions exactly match Ken's below.
- Sam Ruby
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> it looks like several issues are getting conflated again.
>
> 1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
> 2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
> 3. should there be a list of them?
> 4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
> 5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one does)?
>
> here's my personal take on these questions:
>
> 1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
>
> +1
>
> 2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
>
> -0 (+1 if it's no more than 'don't put anything here that might reflect
> poorly on the asf')
>
> 3. should there be a list of them?
>
> +1. data-driven, either through something in peoples' cvs.apache.org/~name/
> directory, like the one-off '.nopublish' i mentioned earlier, or a ~/.homepage
> like sam (?) suggested, or whatever.
>
> 4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
>
> opt-in, of course.
>
> 5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one does)?
>
> -1. someone tries to force its opinion on me about how i may choose to
> express myself and describe my participation in the asf, i tell it to sod
> off in no uncertain terms. if someone doesn't like it, then it should
> a) not do it, and b) not look at others. but don't obstruct people who
> think the idea has value, particularly since it won't affect *you* in any way.
> (generic 'you' there, not anyone in mind at all.)
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
David Reid wrote:
>
> > 1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
> >
> > +1
>
> They've traditionally been used for patches and so with seemed like a good
> use. For personal information I'm inclined to disagree that it's a valid or
> even desirable use.
then we disagree.
> > 2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
> >
> > -0 (+1 if it's no more than 'don't put anything here that might reflect
> > poorly on the asf')
>
> And who gets to decide? Jesus - not another council. I mean what would we
> call it? In the vain of this entire community stuff we'd need to setup a
> mailing list straight away to discuss the name alone - and then the problems
> of who shoudl be told... Could take a long time.
>
> Ken - did you think that last bit through to it's logical conslusion?
yes. i happen to believe in trusting people, not policing them. so
tell committers they can put whatever they like there, as long as it
won't reflect poorly on the hosting organisation. that's just good
manners.
> Rhetorical questions :
> Have we all gone mad?
> Does anyone feel this sort of lengthy discussion is really a good use of
> their time? Does it help to foster a greater feeling of community (the
> definition of which could be another topic that would spawn a lot of
> worthless messages no doubt)?
you are under no obligation to participate, and i rather resent the
implication i see that you think *other* people shouldn't spend their
time on this list in a way *you* would rather not. perhaps that's
not your message above, but that's what i'm reading in it, and my
previous remark applies: a) don't participate if you think it's a waste
of time, b) don't read others' messages likewise, and c) don't obstruct
people who choose to spend their time this way.
i apologize if i have misconstrued your message.
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by David Reid <dr...@jetnet.co.uk>.
> it looks like several issues are getting conflated again.
<sarcasm ON>Big suprise.</sarcasm off>
> 1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
> 2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
> 3. should there be a list of them?
> 4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
> 5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one does)?
>
> here's my personal take on these questions:
>
> 1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
>
> +1
They've traditionally been used for patches and so with seemed like a good
use. For personal information I'm inclined to disagree that it's a valid or
even desirable use.
> 2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
>
> -0 (+1 if it's no more than 'don't put anything here that might reflect
> poorly on the asf')
And who gets to decide? Jesus - not another council. I mean what would we
call it? In the vain of this entire community stuff we'd need to setup a
mailing list straight away to discuss the name alone - and then the problems
of who shoudl be told... Could take a long time.
Ken - did you think that last bit through to it's logical conslusion?
> 3. should there be a list of them?
>
> +1. data-driven, either through something in peoples'
cvs.apache.org/~name/
> directory, like the one-off '.nopublish' i mentioned earlier, or a
~/.homepage
> like sam (?) suggested, or whatever.
>
> 4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
>
> opt-in, of course.
>
> 5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one does)?
>
> -1. someone tries to force its opinion on me about how i may choose to
> express myself and describe my participation in the asf, i tell it to sod
> off in no uncertain terms. if someone doesn't like it, then it should
> a) not do it, and b) not look at others. but don't obstruct people who
> think the idea has value, particularly since it won't affect *you* in any
way.
> (generic 'you' there, not anyone in mind at all.)
Rhetorical questions :
Have we all gone mad?
Does anyone feel this sort of lengthy discussion is really a good use of
their time? Does it help to foster a greater feeling of community (the
definition of which could be another topic that would spawn a lot of
worthless messages no doubt)?
david
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>it looks like several issues are getting conflated again.
>
>1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
>2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
>3. should there be a list of them?
>4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
>5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one does)?
>
>here's my personal take on these questions:
>
>1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
>
>+1
>
>
You must change the term here. Because they already have this. So its
"should we take it away"... to that I vote -1.
>2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
>
>-0 (+1 if it's no more than 'don't put anything here that might reflect
>poorly on the asf')
>
>
-1 (-1 in that case because it adds the "who decides")
>3. should there be a list of them?
>
>+1. data-driven, either through something in peoples' cvs.apache.org/~name/
>directory, like the one-off '.nopublish' i mentioned earlier, or a ~/.homepage
>like sam (?) suggested, or whatever.
>
>
+1 agreed.
>4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
>
>opt-in, of course.
>
>
well actually technically .nopublish is opt out, but +1 either way.
>5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one does)?
>
>-1. someone tries to force its opinion on me about how i may choose to
>express myself and describe my participation in the asf, i tell it to sod
>off in no uncertain terms. if someone doesn't like it, then it should
>a) not do it, and b) not look at others. but don't obstruct people who
>think the idea has value, particularly since it won't affect *you* in any way.
>(generic 'you' there, not anyone in mind at all.)
>
-1 agreed! No truer thing has been said in recent times!
>
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>
>
>
>
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
James Cox wrote:
>
> Not meaning to pick on you Andrew but this comment really made me feel i had
> to respond.
>
> Sun has a long standing relationship with the ASF, one that has taken alot
> of time to build, as well as contributed alot either way with regards to
> both code and community development. I would hate to see a situation where
> just one person could destroy that relationship.. and the above comment
> suggests that you don't really understand [the benefits of] the ASF's
> association with Sun.
I believe I have a fair appreciation of the value of this relationship.
Now, look at what an *ASF*member* put on http://jakarta.apache.org/ at
one point:
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/~checkout~/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html?rev=1.52&content-type=text/html
One way to solve this is to remove all commit access to all apache.org
web sites from all committers and members. And while we are at it, we
should probably drop @apache.org e-mail addresses. Oh, and since this
particular topic was discussed to death on the
general@jakarta.apache.org mailing list, we should seriously consider
whether or not the risks of having ASF hosted mailing lists outweigh the
benefits.
Another way to address this is via education and community pressure.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>
> > I agree with Nicola Ken. We *are* talking about different things.
> > Stefano proposed a short bio, picture, etc. (Although, to date I have
> > not had a significant problem with people mispronouncing my name). You
> > are objecting to Beanie Babies. If it will help further consensus, I
> > will object to Beanie Babies too.
>
> Some people don't want these rules imposed. Ken for one didn't want this
> (correct me if I'm wrong Ken).
reasonable guidelines, permitting reasonable latitude, are fine.
stringently anal rules aren't. all imho.
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:rubys@apache.org]
> Sent: 02 December 2002 16:56
> Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> > --On Monday, December 2, 2002 8:39 AM +0100 Nicola Ken Barozzi
> > <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think we are talking about complete personal websites with
> >> blogs and such, with rants and honeymoon pictures, but about some
> >> pages that explain what the person does, who he is, and not much
> >> more.
> >
> > Of course we are. We're saying that anyone can post whatever they want
> > on their apache.org site. That's what I'm against. I don't want people
> > posting their honeymoon pictures or their Beanie Babies collection.
> > But, as soon as we say, 'you can post whatever you want,' that's what is
> > going to happen. Saying otherwise is foolish.
>
> I agree with Nicola Ken. We *are* talking about different things.
> Stefano proposed a short bio, picture, etc. (Although, to date I have
> not had a significant problem with people mispronouncing my name). You
> are objecting to Beanie Babies. If it will help further consensus, I
> will object to Beanie Babies too.
Some people don't want these rules imposed. Ken for one didn't want this
(correct me if I'm wrong Ken).
Sander
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
ROUS wrote:
> "Noel J. Bergman" wrote:
> > It occurs to me that if people want to guide the content of
> > the ASF hosted "personal" page, there could be a DTD, and the
> > pages could be generated from an XML file using a consistent look
> ugh, ick. :-) that's pretty impersonal for a 'personal' page.
> not for me, thanks.
Agreed. It was intentional, and I figured that standardization would be
off-putting to some. But since the "personal" seems to be the area of
discontent, I thought that it was worth floating the idea of a directory
with standard biographical info and a link to additional personal content
elsewhere.
--- Noel
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
"Noel J. Bergman" wrote:
>
> It occurs to me that if people want to guide the content of
> the ASF hosted "personal" page, there could be a DTD, and the
> pages could be generated from an XML file using a consistent look
ugh, ick. :-) that's pretty impersonal for a 'personal' page.
not for me, thanks..
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Justin, if you would like to put forward a set of rules,
> guidelines, and suggest an enforcement mechanism, I would be
> inclined to endorse it if it would further consensus.
It occurs to me that if people want to guide the content of the ASF hosted
"personal" page, there could be a DTD, and the pages could be generated from
an XML file using a consistent look as is done for projects. The DTD could
define an optional reference to an off-site page for individual expression
(personal pages, blogs, wikis, whatever).
You'd opt-in by creating the XML, have guidance as to the normal content,
have a standard way to refer to more personal data as desired, and it would
be clear that such other data was not part of the "standard ASF material."
That provides a standard opt-in mechanism, guidance on content, ought to
encourage the kind of information Stefano has in mind, and provides for
freedom of expression on an indirect page.
Does that satisfy anyone?
--- Noel
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Monday, December 2, 2002 10:56 AM -0500 Sam Ruby
<ru...@apache.org> wrote:
> Justin, if you would like to put forward a set of rules,
> guidelines, and suggest an enforcement mechanism, I would be
> inclined to endorse it if it would further consensus.
As I have said before, what I would prefer is more projects using the
'contributors' page that lists all contributors with a short blurb
about them - much along the lines of what Stefano originally
suggested. It'd be on the project pages, not on individual person's
pages (that ensures oversight). Their entry can then link to the
non-ASF site of their choice.
My canonical example is:
http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/
Although Jakarta has one of their own:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
My issue with the Jakarta page is that it doesn't have a picture
(rather, room for a picture) and not everyone has their favorite link
associated with it. For a page so large, the index at the top with
everyone's name on it would be goodness, I think. I also have a
hunch that each Jakarta sub-project should have a contributors page
rather than a maintaining a global Jakarta one. That page is just
too big.
What I would think would also be agreeable is that we have a
foundation-wide page that links to each project's contributors page.
I'd be loathe to see duplication though. Hence, just link to each
project's page.
However, I could see a case where someone on community@ doesn't know
what projects I'm on and hence doesn't know where to look for my
info. That may make the case for polishing up Jim's page that lists
all committers and their projects and putting it somewhere more
'official.' Perhaps, we could also follow a similar pattern as we do
for members with committers. Jim's page could be tweaked to have a
simple 'name, organization' with preferred links for both. That'd be
it. Nothing more (every committer would be arranged alphabetically
with no mention of what PMCs, ASF membership, etc, etc.). Yet, your
'name' link should do a job of describing who you are.
If your preferred website doesn't describe you, then I wouldn't
complain that no one knows who you are. =)
> There is such a directory for members. And I'm pleased to report
> that I have yet to come across a Beanie Baby in any of the links I
> have visited.
The members directory just has their name and organization (perhaps
URLs for both). But, all those links are external. =) I don't care
if you sell Beanie Babies or have pictures of your kids on your site.
-- justin
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Monday, December 2, 2002 8:39 AM +0100 Nicola Ken Barozzi
> <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't think we are talking about complete personal websites with
>> blogs and such, with rants and honeymoon pictures, but about some
>> pages that explain what the person does, who he is, and not much
>> more.
>
> Of course we are. We're saying that anyone can post whatever they want
> on their apache.org site. That's what I'm against. I don't want people
> posting their honeymoon pictures or their Beanie Babies collection.
> But, as soon as we say, 'you can post whatever you want,' that's what is
> going to happen. Saying otherwise is foolish.
I agree with Nicola Ken. We *are* talking about different things.
Stefano proposed a short bio, picture, etc. (Although, to date I have
not had a significant problem with people mispronouncing my name). You
are objecting to Beanie Babies. If it will help further consensus, I
will object to Beanie Babies too.
> Unfortunately, Roy's site is sort of an example of what I don't want to
> see. However, what I believe Sam hasn't realized is that Roy *just*
> moved his site there from the UCI servers while he looks for a new home
> for his web site. (Roy will correct me if I'm wrong.) I trust Roy not
> to post anything inappropriate, so I'm not going to complain because I
> believe it's temporary. Yet, not every committer has earned my trust in
> the way Roy has.
I trust Roy too, and find absolutely nothing offensive or counter to the
goals of the ASF in his page. To the contrary, I believe that it is
helpful for people to get to know their board members, the ASF
membership in general, and peers. Is it a complete solution? Certainly
not. But it is a start.
Furthermore, I tend to start out from a position of trust. This
certainly can benefit from being coupled with a little bit of education.
Perhaps the incubator could help educate people that these pages are a
community resource and that people should be mindful of putting content
out there that might damage the ASF.
Justin, if you would like to put forward a set of rules, guidelines, and
suggest an enforcement mechanism, I would be inclined to endorse it if
it would further consensus.
> And, what Andy is missing is that with a DNS alias, there would now be
> an implicit approval of these sites. Furthermore, there would be a
> directory of people who have sites publically linked. Right now, there
> is no such approval or directory.
There is such a directory for members. And I'm pleased to report that I
have yet to come across a Beanie Baby in any of the links I have visited.
Now there is a directory for committers (several, actually). Let's
combine the best from each, adding guidelines where necessary, and move
forward.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org> writes:
> --On Monday, December 2, 2002 8:39 AM +0100 Nicola Ken Barozzi
> <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I don't think we are talking about complete personal websites with
> > blogs and such, with rants and honeymoon pictures, but about some
> > pages that explain what the person does, who he is, and not much
> > more.
>
> Of course we are. We're saying that anyone can post whatever they
> want on their apache.org site. That's what I'm against. I don't
> want people posting their honeymoon pictures or their Beanie Babies
> collection. But, as soon as we say, 'you can post whatever you
> want,' that's what is going to happen. Saying otherwise is foolish.
Color me foolish then. I just can't wait to have my very own dot
on Stephano's cool SVG image.
> Unfortunately, Roy's site is sort of an example of what I don't want
> to see. However, what I believe Sam hasn't realized is that Roy
> *just* moved his site there from the UCI servers while he looks for a
> new home for his web site. (Roy will correct me if I'm wrong.) I
> trust Roy not to post anything inappropriate, so I'm not going to
> complain because I believe it's temporary. Yet, not every committer
> has earned my trust in the way Roy has.
If your description is accurate, I see Roy's behavior here as
completely consistent with Jon's placement of an idiot.html url
within the Jakarta community documents.
Is this the Apache Way?
--
Joe Schaefer
why my home page is on www.apache.org
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org>.
> Unfortunately, Roy's site is sort of an example of what I don't want to
> see. However, what I believe Sam hasn't realized is that Roy *just*
> moved his site there from the UCI servers while he looks for a new home
> for his web site. (Roy will correct me if I'm wrong.)
That is only half the story. The reason my home page is on www.apache.org
is because I need a politically neutral and noncommercial webspace,
where I have complete control over the content, that I can give as a
pointer to my work as an individual distinct from my employer du jour.
I need it because the ASF frequently wants me to present a completely
noncommercial face to the people that we negotiate with, particularly
when talking to the press.
That is also why I kept my home page at UCI so long, but that situation
became untenable as the school's Unix expertise went elsewhere. Apache
is the only place I can trust not to take advantage of my association.
I've actually had a page on www.apache.org for a very long time,
longer than cvs has been on a separate machine, but it wasn't kept
up to date until recently. I'll move it to people.apache.org or
community.apache.org if we ever decide on such a thing.
I own several domain names. None of them are hosted because the place
where I live doesn't have DSL and there are no cheap hosting solutions
in So. Cal. More importantly, I don't have time to maintain one.
The information on my website is stuff about me, my vita, and my
nonprofit projects related to Apache. That's all. I see no reason
why any committer should not be able to place such information on
an apache.org site. I happen to do a lot more stuff as an individual
than most people (projects, protocols, talks, etc.), so it shouldn't
be surprising that there is a lot of stuff there, but there isn't
anything that would cause bandwidth waste or disk space concerns.
The tilde character is a universally known syntax for defining
user-controlled namespaces within an HTTP server's naming authority,
so the notion that the content might somehow reflect poorly on Apache,
somehow more than my personal participation already reflects on
Apache, is just nonsense. If that is a genuine concern, then host
one of the hundred or so other hostnames we have available.
I'd be happy to pay a hosting fee to the ASF if we could arrange for
such a thing, but that's hard to do until we have an accounting of
ASF hosting costs. Furthermore, since I've personally raised more
money for the ASF than my homepage could ever cost in terms of
bandwidth, I won't be feeling guilty about that any time soon.
In the mean time, I have far more important things to burn time on
than this issue, and so does everyone else.
....Roy
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Monday, December 2, 2002 8:39 AM +0100 Nicola Ken Barozzi
<ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> I don't think we are talking about complete personal websites with
> blogs and such, with rants and honeymoon pictures, but about some
> pages that explain what the person does, who he is, and not much
> more.
Of course we are. We're saying that anyone can post whatever they
want on their apache.org site. That's what I'm against. I don't
want people posting their honeymoon pictures or their Beanie Babies
collection. But, as soon as we say, 'you can post whatever you
want,' that's what is going to happen. Saying otherwise is foolish.
Unfortunately, Roy's site is sort of an example of what I don't want
to see. However, what I believe Sam hasn't realized is that Roy
*just* moved his site there from the UCI servers while he looks for a
new home for his web site. (Roy will correct me if I'm wrong.) I
trust Roy not to post anything inappropriate, so I'm not going to
complain because I believe it's temporary. Yet, not every committer
has earned my trust in the way Roy has.
And, what Andy is missing is that with a DNS alias, there would now
be an implicit approval of these sites. Furthermore, there would be
a directory of people who have sites publically linked. Right now,
there is no such approval or directory.
There are good uses and bad uses, but the bad use is going to be
promoted as soon as we create a community.apache.org vhost.
> Every time a committer comes in the communities I'm in, he
> describes himself to the list. I just put that up on my page.
>
> What's the problem?
Not everyone who joins a list will be a committer! You're going to
be creating a 'star stage' if everyone trades URLs and yours happens
to be hosted on the apache.org site while the newbies won't have that
benefit. What makes you different? Nothing should. -- justin
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
May I continue to point out that we are WAY off topic. The issue at
hand is the creation of a DNS alias. The homepage thing
is already in place.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
>> Yet, a personal web site is just that - personal. It's purposely not
>> part of the ASF community. There's no oversight. Therefore, I
>> question what benefit can be gained by endorsing personal web sites
>> hosted on the ASF infrastructure. -- justin
>
>
> I don't think we are talking about complete personal websites with
> blogs and such, with rants and honeymoon pictures, but about some
> pages that explain what the person does, who he is, and not much more.
>
> Every time a committer comes in the communities I'm in, he describes
> himself to the list. I just put that up on my page.
>
> What's the problem?
>
>
> If you are afraid of people trying to use Apache as a showcase for
> themselves, personal homepages are not the place to look at.
> If people are mature enough to keep a decent homepage at apache, then
> I'm seriously concerned about them having acess to Apache resources at
> all.
>
> Find me a personal page that has that problem and I'll agree with you.
>
>> P.S. There are about 590 people with commit right now!
>
>
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> Yet, a personal web site is just that - personal. It's purposely not
> part of the ASF community. There's no oversight. Therefore, I question
> what benefit can be gained by endorsing personal web sites hosted on the
> ASF infrastructure. -- justin
I don't think we are talking about complete personal websites with blogs
and such, with rants and honeymoon pictures, but about some pages that
explain what the person does, who he is, and not much more.
Every time a committer comes in the communities I'm in, he describes
himself to the list. I just put that up on my page.
What's the problem?
If you are afraid of people trying to use Apache as a showcase for
themselves, personal homepages are not the place to look at.
If people are mature enough to keep a decent homepage at apache, then
I'm seriously concerned about them having acess to Apache resources at all.
Find me a personal page that has that problem and I'll agree with you.
> P.S. There are about 590 people with commit right now!
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Sunday, December 1, 2002 7:23 PM -0800 Stefano Mazzocchi
<st...@apache.org> wrote:
> There are 450 people with commit access. Each one of them can put
> something in our servers that can screw the ASF, including web
> sites.
>
> Why is this any different?
Because of community oversight. There are no mechanisms within the
ASF that allow an individual any degree of freedom without some
degree of oversight and mandated collaboration. For example, no
release can be made without three committers approving it. For
example, all CVS commit message end up at some mailing list where the
interested participants review them. For better or worse, all of our
processes are designed to limit the ability of a single person to
corrupt the ASF or its projects.
That's the benefit of the ASF - this isn't SourceForge where a person
can do something on their own. IMHO, that is why Sam's allusion to
the JSPA index left out a key point - within hours, the community had
enforced oversight and removed that item from the front page (Ted
moved it to the 'news' page). Furthermore, a discussion ensued in
the appropriate forums as what to do next. Eventually, an 'official'
position on the JSPA was reached and posted on the website. The
community oversight process worked beautifully.
Yet, a personal web site is just that - personal. It's purposely not
part of the ASF community. There's no oversight. Therefore, I
question what benefit can be gained by endorsing personal web sites
hosted on the ASF infrastructure. -- justin
P.S. There are about 590 people with commit right now!
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> The foundation is responsible for everything on our servers. I don't
> care for it to be associated with *personal* views. Go find a different
> soapbox to stand on top of. Your contributions to the ASF don't merit
> you getting a personal bully pulpit. -- justin
There are 450 people with commit access. Each one of them can put
something in our servers that can screw the ASF, including web sites.
Why is this any different?
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Sunday, December 1, 2002 8:25 PM -0500 "Andrew C. Oliver"
> <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> So Sam Ruby is the ECMA conveiner for the .NET CLI.. I propose
>> (since its well known) that he's an apache committer and the PMC
>> chair of Jakarta that he be told he can't do that anymore.
>
>
> Ugh! No, you are missing the point here.
>
> Sam can do whatever he wants to do as "Sam Ruby." I'm not going to
> tell Sam what to do *ever*. But, I feel that if he decides to rant
> about ECMA or .NET or IBM or Sun or the price of pigs in Beirut, then
> he shouldn't do that within the forum of the ASF unless the foundation
> is willing to legally stand behind his views.
>
> The foundation is responsible for everything on our servers. I don't
> care for it to be associated with *personal* views. Go find a
> different soapbox to stand on top of. Your contributions to the ASF
> don't merit you getting a personal bully pulpit. -- justin
>
Return my comments to the context they were in. I was responding to this:
> about what happens when you make a comment about another company (read,
> partner) in your private space -- if it's possible to trace that you
> are an
> apache guy, even if it's obscure, then that is bad.
>
I can see this is a very emotional issue for you, however I request the
courtesy of not
taking me out of context and making it into the issue as a whole.
I cannot believe a DNS entry could be so controversial. Personally I
don't believe the
proposal should have been here, it should have been on "infrastructure"
and those whom
are "committers" to infrastructure should have voted. If someone had a
serious need to wield
influence then they'd need to contribute to the infrastructure.
However, that's my PERSONAL
soapbox...
Thanks,
-Andy
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Sunday, December 1, 2002 8:25 PM -0500 "Andrew C. Oliver"
<ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> So Sam Ruby is the ECMA conveiner for the .NET CLI.. I propose
> (since its well known) that he's an apache committer and the PMC
> chair of Jakarta that he be told he can't do that anymore.
Ugh! No, you are missing the point here.
Sam can do whatever he wants to do as "Sam Ruby." I'm not going to
tell Sam what to do *ever*. But, I feel that if he decides to rant
about ECMA or .NET or IBM or Sun or the price of pigs in Beirut, then
he shouldn't do that within the forum of the ASF unless the
foundation is willing to legally stand behind his views.
The foundation is responsible for everything on our servers. I don't
care for it to be associated with *personal* views. Go find a
different soapbox to stand on top of. Your contributions to the ASF
don't merit you getting a personal bully pulpit. -- justin
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
James Cox wrote:
>
>
>>You have a corporate viewpoint of how Apache's relationship with Sun
>>should be managed. I tend to think letting them know is fine. (Somehow
>>any explanation of this would probably start sounding like the cluetrain
>>manifesto...which I never read because it was too long winded, but
>>whatever).. Let them decide based on the merits on whether they want to
>>continue their association..
>>
>>
>>
>
>Not meaning to pick on you Andrew but this comment really made me feel i had
>to respond.
>
>
Excellent.
>Sun has a long standing relationship with the ASF, one that has taken alot
>of time to build, as well as contributed alot either way with regards to
>both code and community development. I would hate to see a situation where
>just one person could destroy that relationship.. and the above comment
>suggests that you don't really understand [the benefits of] the ASF's
>association with Sun.
>
>
if the association is that fragile to where one person saying the wrong
thing would
jeapordize it, then I doubt its worth that much. Furthermore, if the
relationship is
based on the abillity to silence individuals who work in ways that are
contra to Sun's
interests then boy thats not too good for Apache.
>whilst i support in general a "people.apache.org" style structure similar to
>people.netscape.com and similar, just reading Jamie Zawinski's various rants
>about what happens when you make a comment about another company (read,
>partner) in your private space -- if it's possible to trace that you are an
>apache guy, even if it's obscure, then that is bad.
>
>
So Sam Ruby is the ECMA conveiner for the .NET CLI.. I propose (since
its well known) that he's an apache committer and the PMC chair of
Jakarta that he be told he can't do that anymore.
You and I hold an entirely different view. I think you just
decentralize control, set objectives and
simple rules and it will all work out. Complex behavior will result
(just like the damn birds that
crap all over my Miata). You apparently have the need for greater order.
>This is an area where you have to be especially careful, and the first
>amendment argument doesn't really work here. If i were able to, i'd veto
>this on grounds that it'd be too difficult to maintain -- and get this --
>people should be using their own web-domains and httpd/forrest/etc to get
>them working !
>
centralization of Control. Its necessary to deceive Sun to maintain
that relationship?
If you're not the one maintaining it, why would you veto it..what do you
care?
-Andy
>
> -- james
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by James Cox <ja...@imajes.info>.
> You have a corporate viewpoint of how Apache's relationship with Sun
> should be managed. I tend to think letting them know is fine. (Somehow
> any explanation of this would probably start sounding like the cluetrain
> manifesto...which I never read because it was too long winded, but
> whatever).. Let them decide based on the merits on whether they want to
> continue their association..
>
Not meaning to pick on you Andrew but this comment really made me feel i had
to respond.
Sun has a long standing relationship with the ASF, one that has taken alot
of time to build, as well as contributed alot either way with regards to
both code and community development. I would hate to see a situation where
just one person could destroy that relationship.. and the above comment
suggests that you don't really understand [the benefits of] the ASF's
association with Sun.
whilst i support in general a "people.apache.org" style structure similar to
people.netscape.com and similar, just reading Jamie Zawinski's various rants
about what happens when you make a comment about another company (read,
partner) in your private space -- if it's possible to trace that you are an
apache guy, even if it's obscure, then that is bad.
This is an area where you have to be especially careful, and the first
amendment argument doesn't really work here. If i were able to, i'd veto
this on grounds that it'd be too difficult to maintain -- and get this --
people should be using their own web-domains and httpd/forrest/etc to get
them working !
-- james
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Right, well the home pages are there now. And right now they are more
closely associated with Apache itself than community.apache.org would.
You're bringing up a new issue as to whether they should be taken away.
The matter at hand is the creation of a new alias to in a way make them
more associated with individuals and Apache communities than
"apache.org" itself.
You have a corporate viewpoint of how Apache's relationship with Sun
should be managed. I tend to think letting them know is fine. (Somehow
any explanation of this would probably start sounding like the cluetrain
manifesto...which I never read because it was too long winded, but
whatever).. Let them decide based on the merits on whether they want to
continue their association..
Regardless, I think this is a matter of trust and distribution of control.
-Andy
>
> I'm afraid of it reflecting poorly upon the ASF. Not matter how hard
> you try to say that the content isn't representative of the ASF as a
> whole, as long as the content is hosted on our site/domain, it will be
> deemed as such.
>
> Imagine the day when one of our committers rants about Java on their
> community.apache.org/~name page and it is posted to /. and Sun gets
> its panties in a knot due to the bad publicity. If a member or
> committer does this in a non-ASF forum, fine. But, giving people a
> platform from which to imply association with the ASF isn't helpful to
> the foundation or its mission.
>
> Reacting passively to these situations isn't going to help. Once the
> story would be posted on /., we're all in hot water. I believe the
> best course of action is not to encourage this behavior. -- justin
>
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>
>
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Sunday, December 1, 2002 6:01 PM -0500 Rodent of Unusual Size
<Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
> 5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one
> does)?
>
> -1. someone tries to force its opinion on me about how i may
> choose to express myself and describe my participation in the asf,
> i tell it to sod off in no uncertain terms. if someone doesn't
> like it, then it should a) not do it, and b) not look at others.
> but don't obstruct people who think the idea has value,
> particularly since it won't affect *you* in any way. (generic 'you'
> there, not anyone in mind at all.)
I'm afraid of it reflecting poorly upon the ASF. Not matter how hard
you try to say that the content isn't representative of the ASF as a
whole, as long as the content is hosted on our site/domain, it will
be deemed as such.
Imagine the day when one of our committers rants about Java on their
community.apache.org/~name page and it is posted to /. and Sun gets
its panties in a knot due to the bad publicity. If a member or
committer does this in a non-ASF forum, fine. But, giving people a
platform from which to imply association with the ASF isn't helpful
to the foundation or its mission.
Reacting passively to these situations isn't going to help. Once the
story would be posted on /., we're all in hot water. I believe the
best course of action is not to encourage this behavior. -- justin
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
it looks like several issues are getting conflated again.
1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
3. should there be a list of them?
4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one does)?
here's my personal take on these questions:
1. should people be permitted to have/publish *.apache.org/~name pages?
+1
2. should they follow any sort of guidelines?
-0 (+1 if it's no more than 'don't put anything here that might reflect
poorly on the asf')
3. should there be a list of them?
+1. data-driven, either through something in peoples' cvs.apache.org/~name/
directory, like the one-off '.nopublish' i mentioned earlier, or a ~/.homepage
like sam (?) suggested, or whatever.
4. should a list be mandatory or opt-in only?
opt-in, of course.
5. is it an all-or-nothing proposition (everyone has them or no-one does)?
-1. someone tries to force its opinion on me about how i may choose to
express myself and describe my participation in the asf, i tell it to sod
off in no uncertain terms. if someone doesn't like it, then it should
a) not do it, and b) not look at others. but don't obstruct people who
think the idea has value, particularly since it won't affect *you* in any way.
(generic 'you' there, not anyone in mind at all.)
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 01 December 2002 19:43
> Sander Striker wrote:
>>
>>> <url:http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/people.html>, updated nightly, and
>>> certainly transformable into a more 'official' process.
>>
>> Should've seen that one comming. However, you have to know what to
>> look for to find ~coar/people.html, on icarus nonetheless. It isn't
>> likely this is a known url to the general public besides our committers.
>> Correct?
>
> exactly my point about making it more official.
Which is exactly the point I'm opposing.
> at the moment it's private and need-to-know and that way by intention.
Exactly.
> nits and twits and bags on the side: it would be a simple matter to alter
> the script that collects this to account for those who use their public_html
> directories for something other than 'about me' stuff. anything from looking
> for a ~/publis_html/.nopublish file, or reading a similar file to find out
> where the publishable stuff is.. computers are our servants. mostly.
It's not that I don't want my page up there, I either want none or all committers
to be on there, all equally represented. Otherwise people are going to think
exactly what Andy wrote as (the first part of) a suggested page description:
"These are the homepages and voices of the Apache Community. These
pages represent the committers and members of the Apache Software
Foundation."
Which is simply not the case if not all committers and members are represented
on there.
Sander
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>
> > <url:http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/people.html>, updated nightly, and
> > certainly transformable into a more 'official' process.
>
> Should've seen that one comming. However, you have to know what to
> look for to find ~coar/people.html, on icarus nonetheless. It isn't
> likely this is a known url to the general public besides our committers.
> Correct?
exactly my point about making it more official. at the moment it's private
and need-to-know and that way by intention.
nits and twits and bags on the side: it would be a simple matter to alter
the script that collects this to account for those who use their public_html
directories for something other than 'about me' stuff. anything from looking
for a ~/publis_html/.nopublish file, or reading a similar file to find out
where the publishable stuff is.. computers are our servants. mostly.
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
André Malo wrote:
>
> yep. But I don't understand the general problem. What about a simple
>
> <VirtualHost *>
> ServerName community.apache.org
> Userdir community
> # or similar
> </VirtualHost>
>
> instead of the weird dot files, subdirs of public_html, redirects etc?!
that works iff you know someone's username on cvs.apache.org. it does nothing
to create/maintain a list of those people, much less those who actually
want a page listed.
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by André Malo <nd...@apache.org>.
* Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> considering that.. making this an opt-in by checking for a .publish file
> might be a better approach. that way, anyone who wants to be listed
> has to take an explicit step to make it happen, rather than being listed
> without necessarily even knowing about it.
yep. But I don't understand the general problem. What about a simple
<VirtualHost *>
ServerName community.apache.org
Userdir community
# or similar
</VirtualHost>
instead of the weird dot files, subdirs of public_html, redirects etc?!
nd
--
my @japh = (sub{q~Just~},sub{q~Another~},sub{q~Perl~},sub{q~Hacker~});
my $japh = q[sub japh { }]; print join #########################
[ $japh =~ /{(.)}/] -> [0] => map $_ -> () # André Malo #
=> @japh; # http://www.perlig.de/ #
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
"Andrew C. Oliver" wrote:
>
> If Ken puts a little more description on the page, the keywords should
> get picked up by google. My blog seems to be well regarded by google.
i'd rather address the issue of those people who use their directories
for non-about-me stuff first.. there. anyone who *doesn't* want their
cvs.apache.org/~name/ directory listed can simply create an empty
~/public_html/.nopublish file, and the script won't include them.
as for beefing up the page.. i might do that, but publishing it anywhere
generally visible should wait until the people being listed on it have
consented.
considering that.. making this an opt-in by checking for a .publish file
might be a better approach. that way, anyone who wants to be listed
has to take an explicit step to make it happen, rather than being listed
without necessarily even knowing about it.
if this becomes the basis of a genuinely public page, something along those
lines will be a requirement. as long as it's private, though, i don't mind
keeping it opt-out rather than opt-in.
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
I'll see what I can do about that.... :-)
How about now:
http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20021201#people_at_apache
If Ken puts a little more description on the page, the keywords should
get picked up by google. My blog seems to be well regarded by google.
Ken I suggest something like:
"These are the homepages and voices of the Apache Community. These
pages represent the committers and members of the Apache Software
Foundation. Apache is not a star chamber or closed society, its made up
of people just like you whom happen to be developers. Through their
contribution to our software development community they have been
recognized as committers and members and earned through merit the right
to associate themselves here. The opinions expressed by these
invidviduals represent only themselves, but over time hopefully
important issues are correllated and aggregated into a consensus which
will guide our community. "
with the obvious keywords linked to the obvious ASF pages (like
consensus, community, etc)... Anyhow, this is only a suggestion.
Thanks for that page Ken.
-Andy
Sander Striker wrote:
>>From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
>>Sent: 01 December 2002 18:56
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Sander Striker wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Right now the homepages aren't linked to from anywhere and certainly
>>>not promoted.
>>>
>>>
>><url:http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/people.html>, updated nightly, and
>>certainly transformable into a more 'official' process.
>>
>>
>
>Should've seen that one comming. However, you have to know what to
>look for to find ~coar/people.html, on icarus nonetheless. It isn't
>likely this is a known url to the general public besides our committers.
>Correct?
>
>Sander
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 01 December 2002 18:56
> Sander Striker wrote:
>>
>> Right now the homepages aren't linked to from anywhere and certainly
>> not promoted.
>
> <url:http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/people.html>, updated nightly, and
> certainly transformable into a more 'official' process.
Should've seen that one comming. However, you have to know what to
look for to find ~coar/people.html, on icarus nonetheless. It isn't
likely this is a known url to the general public besides our committers.
Correct?
Sander
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>
> Right now the homepages aren't linked to from anywhere and certainly
> not promoted.
<url:http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/people.html>, updated nightly, and
certainly transformable into a more 'official' process.
RE: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@apache.org]
> Sent: 01 December 2002 16:34
> Yeah.. I'm confused...what does ANY of the issues brought up have to do
> with creating the dns entry? It seems some folks are voting/debating
> the home directories themselves. Those are already there and I assume
> that decision was already made. I suppose you could propose they be
> shut down, but I DON'T see what creating the DNS entry has to do with
> that... But I'm kinda dull, so maybe if someone explains it, I'll get it.
Right now the homepages aren't linked to from anywhere and certainly
not promoted. Creating the dns entry will seem like promoting the use
of the homepages.
"people".apache.org or "community".apache.org will imply that such a domain
entails all the people of the ASF or the entire community of the ASF. This
simply can never be true since not everyone has time to create and maintain
a 'community' area in his homepage area. Some of us barely have spare time
and are likely to contribute to their projects rather than maintain their
'community' area. So, in the end, only the people with lots of time on
their hands, or simply the most vocal ones, will (likely) be perceived (by
visitors of community.apache.org) to _be_ the ASF, instead of a few faces
within the ASF.
I'm moving my -0 to a -1 on this basis. It would be something else if
community.apache.org were only accessible by committers...
Sander
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Yeah.. I'm confused...what does ANY of the issues brought up have to do
with creating the dns entry? It seems some folks are voting/debating
the home directories themselves. Those are already there and I assume
that decision was already made. I suppose you could propose they be
shut down, but I DON'T see what creating the DNS entry has to do with
that... But I'm kinda dull, so maybe if someone explains it, I'll get it.
-Andy
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Ben Hyde wrote:
>
>>> 'community.apache.org' web site.
>>
>>
>> -1
>
>
> Uh, thanks Ben. That helped a lot understanding the reasons behind
> your negative vote.
>
> Several things were put on the table:
>
> 1) potential non-asf-ralated material
> 2) content imposition
> 3) fact -> vote
> 4) -1 without reason
> 5) automatic redirection breaks existing content
> 6) people.apache.org
>
> I'll reply to all of these in this message for brevity:
>
> 1) we already have committers homepages. so either we close those
> down, or I don't see any reason for people starting to misbehave from
> this point on. my proposal is just bring coherence to something that
> grew out by itself.
>
> 2) my proposal contained 'suggestions' and there would be no way for
> anybody to force somebody to adhere to some standard. I perfectly know
> that all of us are lazy butts and I know all of us become overly
> defensive when things are 'imposed'.
>
> But there is no imposition on a suggestion.
>
> 3) read how the title starts. "proposal" means "let's start a
> discussion" and "place your vote" means "tell me what you think,
> honest". It might sound a little arrogant to some, but I much rather
> prefer to cut the crap and get things done. Since this proposal will
> impact all committers, I wanted to hear what everybody here perceived
> it and so I started a proposal.
>
> Again, I don't see the need to become defensive.
>
> 4) as a rule on the development communities where I happen to hang
> around, a -1 without a reason can be ignored without a reason.
>
> Being this a much wider community, I much rather ask the *reason* why
> I negative vote has been placed without a reason. Ben, your turn.
>
> 5) automatic redirection was proposed a way to unify URI spaces of the
> current homepages. Since no content will be imposed (everybody can
> have whatever they want on their pages), I don't see why this should
> be a problem
>
> 6) since this list is the mail list representation of that web site, I
> thought that community.apache.org was a better name since it matches
> the mail list one.
>
> Your turn, people.
>
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 01:39 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>> Our mission. Creating great software. Puzzling out how to do that
>>> productively in cooperative volunteer teams. Releasing that widely
>>> under a license that is both open. Crafting an effective open
>>> license.
>>> One that doesn't entrap folks.
>
> This proposal is exactly about 'puzzling out how to do that
> productively in cooperative volunteer teams'.
That's what mailing lists are for. :)
> The ASF is currently fragmented. Allow me to say "balkanized". I see
> this as a problem. I want to 'puzzle out' how to solve this problem
> and I think that giving more personal context will help out.
>
> This is my personal experience. You might disagree. But try to
> remember if knowing apache group members in person helped the creation
> of the httpd community.
As I recall, the Apache Group didn't all meet until shortly before
the ASF (the corporation) was formed. The group had already been
functioning very well for quite some time before the corporation
was formed.
> Sure I'd love to organize gettogethers every week, but we don't have
> the resources for that.
I believe the success of open source software depends heavily upon
the fact that the internet provides a medium of communication that
does _not_ require face-to-face meetings.
-aaron
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by David Reid <dr...@jetnet.co.uk>.
> On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 06:01 PM, Ben Hyde wrote:
> > I've attempted to enumerate some of my concerns ..
>
> I'm done. - ben
I find myself (sadly) once again agreeing with you...
david
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 06:01 PM, Ben Hyde wrote:
> I've attempted to enumerate some of my concerns ..
I'm done. - ben
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
I've attempted to enumerate some of my concerns about a suite of
community pages. I gather that people see benefit in such pages. I
want to be clear that I'm note deaf to those arguments, just
unconvinced of those benefits.
On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 04:39 PM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> This proposal is exactly about 'puzzling out how to do that
> productively in cooperative volunteer teams'.
That's a hypothesis. I don't particularly buy into it. I'm one of
those people who considers the term "company party" a bit of an
oxymoron.
The world is full of people I don't particularly want to be closer too,
but with whom I'm happy to work closely. I like the urban rather than
the small town model of what makes a vibrant community.
> The ASF is currently fragmented. Allow me to say "balkanized".
The fragmentation that concerns me is around only a few things. I
don't feel that getting to know all the folks in all the projects is
one them.
> I see this as a problem. I want to 'puzzle out' how to solve this
> problem and I think that giving more personal context will help out.
Possibly, possibly not. I've found it fascinating how not knowing
personal details seems to have enabled a focus on the task rather than
the peripheral. My contributions to these projects is independent of
my age, my job, my achievements, my screw ups, my degree.
> This is my personal experience. You might disagree. But try to
> remember if knowing apache group members in person helped the creation
> of the httpd community.
I was _very late_ to the party, but my impression is that in the
majority of cases only a handful knew each other outside the work until
the decision was taken to consider forming the foundation. I've still
not met the majority of the HTTPD PMC, nor do I know their age, their
past, their hobbies, etc. etc.
Note that if you form loyalties based on other attributes, say a common
love of ballroom dancing, then when it comes time to argue out a tough
decision about memory management you might just dodge the hard work to
maintain that relationship.
- ben
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Ben Hyde wrote:
>
> On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 06:04 AM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Ben Hyde wrote:
>>
>>>> 'community.apache.org' web site.
>>>
>>> -1
>>
>>
>> Uh, thanks Ben. That helped a lot understanding the reasons behind
>> your negative vote.
>
>
> My prior post regarding this enthusiasm follows...
Ok, cool. See my comments below.
>> Return-Path: <bh...@pobox.com>
>> Mailing-List: contact community-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
>> Delivered-To: mailing list community@apache.org
>> Received: (qmail 12720 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 13:13:49 -0000
>> Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (204.127.198.39)
>> by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 13:13:49 -0000
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>> (h00055da7108f.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.30.192.113])
>> by attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with SMTP
>> id <20021115131348053005tddbe>; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:13:48 +0000
>> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:14:24 -0500
>> Subject: Re: @apache web pages
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546)
>> From: Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>
>> To: community@apache.org
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> In-Reply-To: <B3...@apache.org>
>> Message-Id: <29...@pobox.com>
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>>
>> It would be fun to have an Apache community aggregate of web logs, but
>> I have trouble seeing how it serves the foundation's mission. Sorry to
>> be a wet blanket...
>>
>> I'm concerned that if we create people.apache.org we create another
>> inside/outsider boundary. I've got a handful of other concerns about
>> this, but that's my primary one.
I hear your concerns but today there is no easy way to find out some
context about the person that I'm talking to on this list.
My personal experience shows that promoting personal context helps
creating more friendly communities.
The real-life events are a way to promote personal context, but these
events will not scale with the amount of people the ASF currently has.
Thus a need to find a more decentralized solution.
>>
>> Some other ones...
>>
>> I'd rather not co-mingles the Apache brand with the personal web face
>> of individuals in various subparts of the community.
>>
>> Our mission. Creating great software. Puzzling out how to do that
>> productively in cooperative volunteer teams. Releasing that widely
>> under a license that is both open. Crafting an effective open license.
>> One that doesn't entrap folks.
This proposal is exactly about 'puzzling out how to do that productively
in cooperative volunteer teams'.
The ASF is currently fragmented. Allow me to say "balkanized". I see
this as a problem. I want to 'puzzle out' how to solve this problem and
I think that giving more personal context will help out.
This is my personal experience. You might disagree. But try to remember
if knowing apache group members in person helped the creation of the
httpd community.
Sure I'd love to organize gettogethers every week, but we don't have the
resources for that.
Having homepages for ASF-related stuff might not be as good as meeting
people in real life, but it's much better than having just a dry name to
confront to.
>> I have to do a lot of A supports B supports C supports D before I get
>> to the conclusion that D, building out a mess of committer web pages,
>> supports A, the mission of the foundation.
Hope the above explains my intentions.
Bringing people closer together is for sure part of the mission of the
foundation.
>> I'm concerned that a few highly vocal members might generate the
>> impression that the foundation is taking positions that it's not.
>> Consider Sam's web log with where he's been poking at RSS - that's not
>> a ASF position. Consider my web log with it's rants on the wealth
>> distribution - that's not an ASF position.
I *am* *NOT* proposing to turn apache web pages into weblogs. Weblogs
are personal things, I totally and completely agree with you that
weblogs should *NOT* be part of those homepages.
I just want to be able to associate a name with a person. some bio
information, his interests around the ASF and whatever else the person
wants me to know about his ASF involvement.
my proposal is *NOT*:
- about weblogs
- about moving all personal info inside the ASF web zone
- about forcing people to do anything, but empowering those who want
to have their personal info available in a coherent manner
>> The easiest way to avoid a star stage is not to build the stage.
Fair, but that is not my intention.
Hope my explaination change the picture somehow.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
> Ben Hyde wrote:
>>> I'm concerned that a few highly vocal members might generate the
>>> impression that the foundation is taking positions that it's not.
>
> I would be much more concerned about committers having @apache.org
> mailing list addresses.
I hope people aren't using except when they are acting in a role
related to that of the foundation. - ben
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Ben Hyde wrote:
>
>> I'm concerned that a few highly vocal members might generate the
>> impression that the foundation is taking positions that it's not.
I would be much more concerned about committers having @apache.org
mailing list addresses.
- Sam Ruby
Re: [proposal] creation of communitity.apache.org
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 06:04 AM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Ben Hyde wrote:
>>> 'community.apache.org' web site.
>> -1
>
> Uh, thanks Ben. That helped a lot understanding the reasons behind
> your negative vote.
My prior post regarding this enthusiasm follows...
> Return-Path: <bh...@pobox.com>
> Mailing-List: contact community-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
> Delivered-To: mailing list community@apache.org
> Received: (qmail 12720 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2002 13:13:49
> -0000
> Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (204.127.198.39)
> by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 15 Nov 2002 13:13:49 -0000
> Received: from pobox.com
> (h00055da7108f.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.30.192.113])
> by attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with SMTP
> id <20021115131348053005tddbe>; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:13:48
> +0000
> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:14:24 -0500
> Subject: Re: @apache web pages
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546)
> From: Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>
> To: community@apache.org
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> In-Reply-To: <B3...@apache.org>
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>
> It would be fun to have an Apache community aggregate of web logs, but
> I have trouble seeing how it serves the foundation's mission. Sorry to
> be a wet
> blanket...
>
> I'm concerned that if we create people.apache.org we create another
> inside/outsider boundary. I've got a handful of other concerns about
> this, but that's my primary one.
>
> Some other ones...
>
> I'd rather not co-mingles the Apache brand with the personal web face
> of individuals in various subparts of the community.
>
> Our mission. Creating great software. Puzzling out how to do that
> productively in cooperative volunteer teams. Releasing that widely
> under a license that is both open. Crafting an effective open license.
> One that doesn't entrap folks.
>
> I have to do a lot of A supports B supports C supports D before I get
> to the conclusion that D, building out a mess of committer web pages,
> supports A, the mission of the foundation.
>
> I'm concerned that a few highly vocal members might generate the
> impression that the foundation is taking positions that it's not.
> Consider Sam's web log with where he's been poking at RSS - that's not
> a ASF position. Consider my web log with it's rants on the wealth
> distribution - that's not an ASF position.
>
> The easiest way to avoid a star stage is not to build the stage.
>
> - ben