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Posted to dev@sling.apache.org by Felix Meschberger <fm...@gmail.com> on 2009/05/11 21:03:29 UTC
Releases in the future
Hi all,
Carsten and I have been reasoning about the releases in the future,
mainly the ones for end-users who just want to grab a binary and fire it
off.
Basically, we will start releasing single bundles using the regular ASF
release process. This should enable us to release much quicker than with
big release we have done until now.
For the consumer releases we are talking about 4 projects mainly:
* launchpad/base - contains the launcher code, Felix framework
and the OSGi core and compendium libraries.
* launchpad/bundles - a very simple project to just pack together
existing bundles
* launchpad/app, launchpad/webapp - projects to create final app
and web app from the base and bundles projects
So to release a "consumer product" we update the launchpad/bundles
project with all the bundles we want to include and prepare the releases
of the launchpad/bundles, launchpad/app and launchpad/webapp projects.
I know this is kind of "weird" in the Apache World, but in essence these
releases are not mainly targeted at developers and "manual builders" but
at consumers, who just want to grab-and-run it.
WDYT ?
Regards
Felix
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Felix Meschberger <fm...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Bertrand Delacretaz schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Felix Meschberger <fm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...Basically, we will start releasing single bundles using the regular ASF
>> release process. This should enable us to release much quicker than with
>> big release we have done until now...
>
> +1, and if we could graduate soon that would make the release process faster ;-)
Yes, I plan to launch this discussion, once the release has been
approved by the IMPC.
Regards
Felix
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Felix Meschberger <fm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Basically, we will start releasing single bundles using the regular ASF
> release process. This should enable us to release much quicker than with
> big release we have done until now...
+1, and if we could graduate soon that would make the release process faster ;-)
> ...For the consumer releases we are talking about 4 projects mainly:
>
> * launchpad/base - contains the launcher code, Felix framework
> and the OSGi core and compendium libraries.
>
> * launchpad/bundles - a very simple project to just pack together
> existing bundles
>
> * launchpad/app, launchpad/webapp - projects to create final app
> and web app from the base and bundles projects
>
> So to release a "consumer product" we update the launchpad/bundles
> project with all the bundles we want to include and prepare the releases
> of the launchpad/bundles, launchpad/app and launchpad/webapp projects....
Sounds good, and once we have a bundle repository in place, I could
imagine changing the launchpad to be a minimal launcher shell, using a
structured text file to define a list of bundles to load and maybe
some configuration parameters. The empty shell would rarely or never
change, maybe it wouldn't even contain the OSGi framework, but load it
from URLs specified in the text file.
That text file is maybe simply a script for the Felix shell or for
Karaf (haven't looked at that closely yet).
Future music...for now, I agree with what you suggest above - except
maybe we shouldn't name those packages "releases", I'll reply to Roy's
comment about that.
-Bertrand
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
> On May 12, 2009, at 12:40 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On May 11, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Felix Meschberger wrote:
>>>
>>>> Carsten and I have been reasoning about the releases in the future,
>>>> mainly the ones for end-users who just want to grab a binary and fire it
>>>> off....
>>
>>> Apache only releases source code packages. Those other things you build
>>> are not releases -- they are binaries that individuals build and upload.
>>
>> How about naming those things "binary packages" instead of "releases"?
>
> A rose is still a rose ...
>
>> We can still use the same process for releasing them, and include a
>> disclaimer that they're not official releases and provided without
>> warranty etc..
>
> I don't see how we can "use the same process for releasing them" when
> part of that process requires comparison of the source code with what
> is in subversion. An ASF release is a group decision based on peer
> review, and I don't think anyone giving +1s on the binaries are
> actually doing JVM decompiles and source-level comparisons to verify
> the contents don't include some extra trojan horse. Running the tests
> is not sufficient.
>
> That's why the ASF does not vote on binaries. I'd rather not make it
> look like we are.
Ok, I see your point. I suggest that we clarify how we do that next
time we have a concrete case.
-Bertrand
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On May 12, 2009, at 12:40 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Roy T. Fielding
> <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
>> On May 11, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Felix Meschberger wrote:
>>
>>> Carsten and I have been reasoning about the releases in the future,
>>> mainly the ones for end-users who just want to grab a binary and
>>> fire it
>>> off....
>
>> Apache only releases source code packages. Those other things you
>> build
>> are not releases -- they are binaries that individuals build and
>> upload.
>
> How about naming those things "binary packages" instead of "releases"?
A rose is still a rose ...
> We can still use the same process for releasing them, and include a
> disclaimer that they're not official releases and provided without
> warranty etc..
I don't see how we can "use the same process for releasing them" when
part of that process requires comparison of the source code with what
is in subversion. An ASF release is a group decision based on peer
review, and I don't think anyone giving +1s on the binaries are
actually doing JVM decompiles and source-level comparisons to verify
the contents don't include some extra trojan horse. Running the tests
is not sufficient.
That's why the ASF does not vote on binaries. I'd rather not make it
look like we are.
....Roy
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
> On May 11, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Felix Meschberger wrote:
>
>> Carsten and I have been reasoning about the releases in the future,
>> mainly the ones for end-users who just want to grab a binary and fire it
>> off....
> Apache only releases source code packages. Those other things you build
> are not releases -- they are binaries that individuals build and upload.
How about naming those things "binary packages" instead of "releases"?
We can still use the same process for releasing them, and include a
disclaimer that they're not official releases and provided without
warranty etc..
That would help clarify things.
-Bertrand
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org>.
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On May 11, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Felix Meschberger wrote:
>
>> Carsten and I have been reasoning about the releases in the future,
>> mainly the ones for end-users who just want to grab a binary and fire it
>> off.
>>
>> Basically, we will start releasing single bundles using the regular ASF
>> release process. This should enable us to release much quicker than with
>> big release we have done until now.
>>
>> For the consumer releases we are talking about 4 projects mainly:
>>
>> * launchpad/base - contains the launcher code, Felix framework
>> and the OSGi core and compendium libraries.
>>
>> * launchpad/bundles - a very simple project to just pack together
>> existing bundles
>>
>> * launchpad/app, launchpad/webapp - projects to create final app
>> and web app from the base and bundles projects
>>
>> So to release a "consumer product" we update the launchpad/bundles
>> project with all the bundles we want to include and prepare the releases
>> of the launchpad/bundles, launchpad/app and launchpad/webapp projects.
>>
>> I know this is kind of "weird" in the Apache World, but in essence these
>> releases are not mainly targeted at developers and "manual builders" but
>> at consumers, who just want to grab-and-run it.
>>
>> WDYT ?
>
> Apache only releases source code packages. Those other things you build
> are not releases -- they are binaries that individuals build and upload.
Yes, that's right - now, we think that even for those things voting etc.
is a good thing. While legaly everything might be correct, but I don't
think that users are really able (or willing) to distinguish between a
release (source) and a downloadable binary. So it makes sense that those
binaries are checked and handled properly as well.
Carsten
--
Carsten Ziegeler
cziegeler@apache.org
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On May 11, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Felix Meschberger wrote:
> Carsten and I have been reasoning about the releases in the future,
> mainly the ones for end-users who just want to grab a binary and
> fire it
> off.
>
> Basically, we will start releasing single bundles using the regular
> ASF
> release process. This should enable us to release much quicker than
> with
> big release we have done until now.
>
> For the consumer releases we are talking about 4 projects mainly:
>
> * launchpad/base - contains the launcher code, Felix framework
> and the OSGi core and compendium libraries.
>
> * launchpad/bundles - a very simple project to just pack together
> existing bundles
>
> * launchpad/app, launchpad/webapp - projects to create final app
> and web app from the base and bundles projects
>
> So to release a "consumer product" we update the launchpad/bundles
> project with all the bundles we want to include and prepare the
> releases
> of the launchpad/bundles, launchpad/app and launchpad/webapp projects.
>
> I know this is kind of "weird" in the Apache World, but in essence
> these
> releases are not mainly targeted at developers and "manual
> builders" but
> at consumers, who just want to grab-and-run it.
>
> WDYT ?
Apache only releases source code packages. Those other things you build
are not releases -- they are binaries that individuals build and upload.
....Roy
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Vidar Ramdal <vi...@idium.no>.
2009/5/12 Juan José Vázquez Delgado <ju...@gmail.com>:
> As Ian describes, a custom launchpad, including Sling and some other
> bundles, is a typical enterprise-ready package for "Sling solutions".
Agreed.
> IMHO, there is not an easy way to package a Sling based software
> solution now. Along these, I see in Apache Felix Karaf [1] (a.k.a.
> Apache ServiceMix Kernel) a better approach in order to have
> enterprise-ready solutions over OSGi environments. WDYT?
Karaf looks very useful. For us, developing a bunch of our own jars
and scripts, it would greatly simplify deploying and packaging of our
own application.
> [1] http://felix.apache.org/site/apache-felix-karaf.html
--
Vidar S. Ramdal <vi...@idium.no> - http://www.idium.no
Akersgata 16, N-0158 Oslo, Norway
+47 21 531941, ext 2070
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Juan José Vázquez Delgado <ju...@gmail.com>.
> * create OSGi Deployment Packages for use with
> the Deployment Admin service
>
> * create Karaf features (requiring respective
> Karaf support)
>
> * create a list of dependencies to grab from
> and OBR at first startup
>
> What is important to me, is that we will be able to produce simple
> applications (or web applications if required) which end-users can grab
> and run without requiring them to launch a maven (or ant or whatever
> tool you like) process.
Absolutely agree. +1.
Juanjo.
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Ian Boston <ie...@tfd.co.uk>.
On 12 May 2009, at 08:55, Felix Meschberger wrote:
> What is important to me, is that we will be able to produce simple
> applications (or web applications if required) which end-users can
> grab
> and run without requiring them to launch a maven (or ant or whatever
> tool you like) process.
>
If I gave my anti java UI guys this, they would stop giving me weird
looks. IMHO it would remove a big barrier to the adoption of Sling by
a far wider community.
So big +1 on this aim.
Ian
> Regards
> Felix
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Felix Meschberger <fm...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Juan José Vázquez Delgado schrieb:
>> Many of them are used to a pre configured lamp binary for getting up and
>> going on development fast, building from source doesnt appear to be in their
>> vocab.
>
> IMHO, there is not an easy way to package a Sling based software
> solution now. Along these, I see in Apache Felix Karaf [1] (a.k.a.
> Apache ServiceMix Kernel) a better approach in order to have
> enterprise-ready solutions over OSGi environments. WDYT?
I have to admit, that I did not look into Karaf yet.
But lets resume what we currently have in Sling:
* A very small launcher which is a web app or a
standalone java application. (attached artifacts
of the launchpad/base project)
* A common jar file (we call it the launcher jar
file) containing the actual launch code to
kick of the framework (and to the initial
installations if any) (from the launchpad/base)
* A packaging which just packs a list of bundles
into a single jar file (the launchpad/bundles
project)
* A "final" build creating the distributable
Java application or web application from the
the small launcher (web) app, the launcher jar
and the bundles to be included.
* We have a patch ready to also run the initial
installation from the filesystem.
Now, I understand that the biggest problem is creating the inital set of
bundles. Currently we just include them as explained above. We could also:
* create OSGi Deployment Packages for use with
the Deployment Admin service
* create Karaf features (requiring respective
Karaf support)
* create a list of dependencies to grab from
and OBR at first startup
What is important to me, is that we will be able to produce simple
applications (or web applications if required) which end-users can grab
and run without requiring them to launch a maven (or ant or whatever
tool you like) process.
Regards
Felix
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Juan José Vázquez Delgado <ju...@gmail.com>.
> As one of those "users" of sling the launchpad structures are working well
> for us. At the moment we take launchpad/bundles as is, and package with
> something close to lauchpad/app.
As Ian describes, a custom launchpad, including Sling and some other
bundles, is a typical enterprise-ready package for "Sling solutions".
> We are intending to give our UI developers an executable Jar to work with
> because when ever I say "you just have to download it and build it" they
> give me a really weird look like, like I have escaped from somewhere.
>
> Many of them are used to a pre configured lamp binary for getting up and
> going on development fast, building from source doesnt appear to be in their
> vocab.
IMHO, there is not an easy way to package a Sling based software
solution now. Along these, I see in Apache Felix Karaf [1] (a.k.a.
Apache ServiceMix Kernel) a better approach in order to have
enterprise-ready solutions over OSGi environments. WDYT?
BR,
Juanjo.
[1] http://felix.apache.org/site/apache-felix-karaf.html
Re: Releases in the future
Posted by Ian Boston <ie...@tfd.co.uk>.
As one of those "users" of sling the launchpad structures are working
well for us. At the moment we take launchpad/bundles as is, and
package with something close to lauchpad/app.
We do however have some patches against the raw source so are running
a branch, although, long term I would hope to be taking a standard
build.
We are intending to give our UI developers an executable Jar to work
with because when ever I say "you just have to download it and build
it" they give me a really weird look like, like I have escaped from
somewhere.
Many of them are used to a pre configured lamp binary for getting up
and going on development fast, building from source doesnt appear to
be in their vocab.
Ian
On 11 May 2009, at 20:03, Felix Meschberger wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Carsten and I have been reasoning about the releases in the future,
> mainly the ones for end-users who just want to grab a binary and
> fire it
> off.
>
> Basically, we will start releasing single bundles using the regular
> ASF
> release process. This should enable us to release much quicker than
> with
> big release we have done until now.
>
> For the consumer releases we are talking about 4 projects mainly:
>
> * launchpad/base - contains the launcher code, Felix framework
> and the OSGi core and compendium libraries.
>
> * launchpad/bundles - a very simple project to just pack together
> existing bundles
>
> * launchpad/app, launchpad/webapp - projects to create final app
> and web app from the base and bundles projects
>
> So to release a "consumer product" we update the launchpad/bundles
> project with all the bundles we want to include and prepare the
> releases
> of the launchpad/bundles, launchpad/app and launchpad/webapp projects.
>
> I know this is kind of "weird" in the Apache World, but in essence
> these
> releases are not mainly targeted at developers and "manual builders"
> but
> at consumers, who just want to grab-and-run it.
>
> WDYT ?
>
> Regards
> Felix