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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org> on 2014/06/03 14:32:37 UTC
[VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Hi,
I'd like to release Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
We fixed 20 issues:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/ReleaseNote.jspa?version=12325648&styleName=Text&projectId=12314925&Create=Create
Staging Maven repository:
https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachesirona-1000/
Staging release:
https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/sirona/0.2-incubating/
Documentation: http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/docs/0.2-incubating/
KEYS file available here:
https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/incubator/sirona/KEYS
Vote thread from dev@ project:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sirona-dev/201405.mbox/browser
Vote open for 72H
+1
0
-1
Thanks!
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org>.
On 26 June 2014 11:05, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Yes I know it's a sort of grumbling email but It's already hard to
>> release something here especially when you are volunteer and doing the
>> coding part on your spare time and without the support of all paid
>> folks who join IPMC just to have a binding vote on some projects!!
>> So please start such discussion before on the dev list.
>
> Not that it really matters but I'm am also a volunteer and not one of those paid folk. :-)
My response was for Mark :-)
>
> Justin
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> Yes I know it's a sort of grumbling email but It's already hard to
> release something here especially when you are volunteer and doing the
> coding part on your spare time and without the support of all paid
> folks who join IPMC just to have a binding vote on some projects!!
> So please start such discussion before on the dev list.
Not that it really matters but I'm am also a volunteer and not one of those paid folk. :-)
Justin
Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org>.
On 26 June 2014 05:29, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> wow, txs for that review.
>
> I personally think sirona can be something which is really interesting. But the code is pretty hardcore and thus we do hard in reaching 'starters'. Not sure how to improve this...
>
Even if I really agree :-), honestly that's definitely to discuss
before a release vote on the dev list.
Yes I know it's a sort of grumbling email but It's already hard to
release something here especially when you are volunteer and doing the
coding part on your spare time and without the support of all paid
folks who join IPMC just to have a binding vote on some projects!!
So please start such discussion before on the dev list.
> LieGrue,
> strub
>
>
> On Wednesday, 25 June 2014, 9:25, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Sorry I been a bit busy with travel and other releases over the last few weeks.
>>
>>-1 binding due to vote issues, NOTICE and binaries in source release.
>>
>>I checked:
>>- missing VOTE RESULT and can't tell if there are 3 +1 binding votes or not. There are 4 +1 votes on of which one is not binding but unsure re the others. Only one of the +1 votes is listed as a PMC member here [1] and the project is not listed here [2].
>>- artefact name includes incubating
>>- signatures and md5 hash all good
>>- DISCLAIMER present
>>- LICENSE correct
>>- NOTICE file includes too many things (see below)
>>- binary files in source release (see bleow)
>>- can compile from source
>>- test failed (JavaAgent) - up to you if you think this is an issue or not
>>
>>In the NOTICE file you have:
>>SB Admin Theme (Apache)
>>Twitter bootstrap (MIT)
>>Bootstrap datetimepicker (Apache)
>>Table sorter (MIT)
>>JQuery (MIT)
>>JQuery Flot (MIT)
>>
>>As per [3] there is not need to modify the NOTICE file when bundling permissive licenses.
>>
>>Binary file in source release.
>>- Font files in resources/fonts. It is unclear how there are these licensed and where are they from.
>>
>>Some minor thing you may want to fix in future releases.
>>- Add a KEY file to the incubating release ares
>>- add "apache" to the release artefact name
>>- not sure that DEPENDANCIES is needed
>>- probably no need for LICENSE and LICENSE.txt
>>- Is year 2008-2013 correct in NOTICE file?
>>- No README (how to compile) or RELEASE_NOTES (changes form last version)
>>- init-git-svn.sh and siteDeploy.sh scripts are missing license header
>>- sb-admin.css missing license header
>>
>>The test failed with this error:
>>[ERROR] Failed to execute goal org.apache.maven.plugins:maven-shade-plugin:2.1:shade (default) on project sirona-javaagent: Error creating shaded jar: /Users/justinmclean/Documents/Sirona0.2/apache-sirona-0.2-incubating/agent/performance/aop/target/classes (Is a directory) -> [Help 1]
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Justin
>>
>>1. http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
>>2. http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html
>>3. http://www.apache.org/dev/licensing-howto.html#permissive-deps
>>
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>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
--
Olivier Lamy
Ecetera: http://ecetera.com.au
http://twitter.com/olamy | http://linkedin.com/in/olamy
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
wow, txs for that review.
I personally think sirona can be something which is really interesting. But the code is pretty hardcore and thus we do hard in reaching 'starters'. Not sure how to improve this...
LieGrue,
strub
On Wednesday, 25 June 2014, 9:25, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>
>
>Hi,
>
>Sorry I been a bit busy with travel and other releases over the last few weeks.
>
>-1 binding due to vote issues, NOTICE and binaries in source release.
>
>I checked:
>- missing VOTE RESULT and can't tell if there are 3 +1 binding votes or not. There are 4 +1 votes on of which one is not binding but unsure re the others. Only one of the +1 votes is listed as a PMC member here [1] and the project is not listed here [2].
>- artefact name includes incubating
>- signatures and md5 hash all good
>- DISCLAIMER present
>- LICENSE correct
>- NOTICE file includes too many things (see below)
>- binary files in source release (see bleow)
>- can compile from source
>- test failed (JavaAgent) - up to you if you think this is an issue or not
>
>In the NOTICE file you have:
>SB Admin Theme (Apache)
>Twitter bootstrap (MIT)
>Bootstrap datetimepicker (Apache)
>Table sorter (MIT)
>JQuery (MIT)
>JQuery Flot (MIT)
>
>As per [3] there is not need to modify the NOTICE file when bundling permissive licenses.
>
>Binary file in source release.
>- Font files in resources/fonts. It is unclear how there are these licensed and where are they from.
>
>Some minor thing you may want to fix in future releases.
>- Add a KEY file to the incubating release ares
>- add "apache" to the release artefact name
>- not sure that DEPENDANCIES is needed
>- probably no need for LICENSE and LICENSE.txt
>- Is year 2008-2013 correct in NOTICE file?
>- No README (how to compile) or RELEASE_NOTES (changes form last version)
>- init-git-svn.sh and siteDeploy.sh scripts are missing license header
>- sb-admin.css missing license header
>
>The test failed with this error:
>[ERROR] Failed to execute goal org.apache.maven.plugins:maven-shade-plugin:2.1:shade (default) on project sirona-javaagent: Error creating shaded jar: /Users/justinmclean/Documents/Sirona0.2/apache-sirona-0.2-incubating/agent/performance/aop/target/classes (Is a directory) -> [Help 1]
>
>Thanks,
>Justin
>
>1. http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
>2. http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html
>3. http://www.apache.org/dev/licensing-howto.html#permissive-deps
>
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>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>
Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org>.
On 25 June 2014 17:25, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Sorry I been a bit busy with travel and other releases over the last few weeks.
>
> -1 binding due to vote issues, NOTICE and binaries in source release.
>
> I checked:
> - missing VOTE RESULT and can't tell if there are 3 +1 binding votes or not. There are 4 +1 votes on of which one is not binding but unsure re the others. Only one of the +1 votes is listed as a PMC member here [1] and the project is not listed here [2].
And honestly I have no idea how to get the project listed here
http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html
> - artefact name includes incubating
> - signatures and md5 hash all good
> - DISCLAIMER present
> - LICENSE correct
> - NOTICE file includes too many things (see below)
> - binary files in source release (see bleow)
> - can compile from source
> - test failed (JavaAgent) - up to you if you think this is an issue or not
>
> In the NOTICE file you have:
> SB Admin Theme (Apache)
> Twitter bootstrap (MIT)
> Bootstrap datetimepicker (Apache)
> Table sorter (MIT)
> JQuery (MIT)
> JQuery Flot (MIT)
>
> As per [3] there is not need to modify the NOTICE file when bundling permissive licenses.
>
> Binary file in source release.
> - Font files in resources/fonts. It is unclear how there are these licensed and where are they from.
>
> Some minor thing you may want to fix in future releases.
> - Add a KEY file to the incubating release ares
> - add "apache" to the release artefact name
> - not sure that DEPENDANCIES is needed
> - probably no need for LICENSE and LICENSE.txt
> - Is year 2008-2013 correct in NOTICE file?
> - No README (how to compile) or RELEASE_NOTES (changes form last version)
> - init-git-svn.sh and siteDeploy.sh scripts are missing license header
> - sb-admin.css missing license header
>
> The test failed with this error:
> [ERROR] Failed to execute goal org.apache.maven.plugins:maven-shade-plugin:2.1:shade (default) on project sirona-javaagent: Error creating shaded jar: /Users/justinmclean/Documents/Sirona0.2/apache-sirona-0.2-incubating/agent/performance/aop/target/classes (Is a directory) -> [Help 1]
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
> 2. http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html
> 3. http://www.apache.org/dev/licensing-howto.html#permissive-deps
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
--
Olivier Lamy
Ecetera: http://ecetera.com.au
http://twitter.com/olamy | http://linkedin.com/in/olamy
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> See http://glyphicons.com/license/
> which says " Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC BY 3.0) "
Not sure that applies - that's for the free version which doesn't include the Halflings font.
> I hope we can use that. If not so many projects here @apache have
> illegal distributions :-)
I don't think it an issue, just being thorough. Most likely the right thing to do would be to acknowledge the fonts copyright.
Where to add it is a little tricky and depends if you think it MIT licensed or not, if MIT then add to LICENCE (as permissive licences are not added to NOTICE), if you take it as being licensed by info in the fonts metadata (not unreasonable IMO) then add to the NOTICE. Others with more experience in such matters may correct me on this.
Just he issue JIRA to sort in a future release.
> As you asked for changelog, that's here:
> http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/docs/0.2-incubating/jira-report.html
Again not a blocker, but that usually put into the RELEASE_NOTES or CHANGELOG, something to consider for a future release.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
Change my vote to +1 binding as all issues I raised have been discussed and can be addressed in the next release.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org>.
On 26 June 2014 12:37, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>>> The font files in resources/fonts. Any idea where they come from or how they are licensed? If they are ALv2 or similar then there is no issue.
>> coming from boostrap which is MIT
>
> Looking at the font metadata I don't see a MIT license only a URL [1] and a copyright - "Copyright © 2013 by Jan Kovarik. All rights reserved". Checking the URL it look like the halflings regular font isn't normally free or redistributable.
>
> However it is packaged with bootstrap. [2] Note that you it does ask for a link back to the glyphicons URL. It doesn't say anything about redistribution rights which may or may not be an issue - probably not. Anyone with actually legal knowledge have an opinion?
>
See http://glyphicons.com/license/
which says " Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC BY 3.0) "
I hope we can use that. If not so many projects here @apache have
illegal distributions :-)
>> I don't get the point to duplicate my key again here :-)
> Just to make it easier for peopel with limited time to test - but as I said it is not required.
>
>> so are you using: mvn clean install (or something else?)
> "mvn clean compile" actually and today it seems to be working. "mvn clean install" hangs on a test for me. It might be good to add this info to the README. Not a blocker to release but other users may run into similar issues.
make sense, I will
As you asked for changelog, that's here:
http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/docs/0.2-incubating/jira-report.html
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. http://www.glyphicons.com
> 2. http://getbootstrap.com/components/
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--
Olivier Lamy
Ecetera: http://ecetera.com.au
http://twitter.com/olamy | http://linkedin.com/in/olamy
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
>> The font files in resources/fonts. Any idea where they come from or how they are licensed? If they are ALv2 or similar then there is no issue.
> coming from boostrap which is MIT
Looking at the font metadata I don't see a MIT license only a URL [1] and a copyright - "Copyright © 2013 by Jan Kovarik. All rights reserved". Checking the URL it look like the halflings regular font isn't normally free or redistributable.
However it is packaged with bootstrap. [2] Note that you it does ask for a link back to the glyphicons URL. It doesn't say anything about redistribution rights which may or may not be an issue - probably not. Anyone with actually legal knowledge have an opinion?
> I don't get the point to duplicate my key again here :-)
Just to make it easier for peopel with limited time to test - but as I said it is not required.
> so are you using: mvn clean install (or something else?)
"mvn clean compile" actually and today it seems to be working. "mvn clean install" hangs on a test for me. It might be good to add this info to the README. Not a blocker to release but other users may run into similar issues.
Thanks,
Justin
1. http://www.glyphicons.com
2. http://getbootstrap.com/components/
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org>.
On 26 June 2014 11:01, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> what are the binaries???
> The font files in resources/fonts. Any idea where they come from or how they are licensed? If they are ALv2 or similar then there is no issue.
coming from boostrap which is MIT
>
>> There are currently 2 IPMC votes from: jbonofre and olamy
>> http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html#jbonofre
>> http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html#olamy
> Thanks. A tally of VOTES and/or votes noted as binding would of made this clearer.
>
>>> As per [3] there is not need to modify the NOTICE file when bundling permissive licenses.
>> Why is it blocker??
> It important to get the NOTICE right, but if you raise a JIRA and fix it in the next release that good enough for me.
>
>> Already here: https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/incubator/sirona/
> But not here:
> https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/sirona/
My key is already available in plenty of places here.
https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/archiva/KEYS
https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/tomcat/maven-plugin/KEYS.txt
https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/maven/KEYS
https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/directmemory/KEYS
etc...
I don't get the point to duplicate my key again here :-)
>
> Just a suggestion for make voting easier btw - non required.
>
>> maybe you are using maven 2.x
> I'm using 3.2.1 and Java 1.7.0_10.
so are you using: mvn clean install (or something else?)
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
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--
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http://twitter.com/olamy | http://linkedin.com/in/olamy
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> what are the binaries???
The font files in resources/fonts. Any idea where they come from or how they are licensed? If they are ALv2 or similar then there is no issue.
> There are currently 2 IPMC votes from: jbonofre and olamy
> http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html#jbonofre
> http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html#olamy
Thanks. A tally of VOTES and/or votes noted as binding would of made this clearer.
>> As per [3] there is not need to modify the NOTICE file when bundling permissive licenses.
> Why is it blocker??
It important to get the NOTICE right, but if you raise a JIRA and fix it in the next release that good enough for me.
> Already here: https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/incubator/sirona/
But not here:
https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/sirona/
Just a suggestion for make voting easier btw - non required.
> maybe you are using maven 2.x
I'm using 3.2.1 and Java 1.7.0_10.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org>.
On 25 June 2014 17:25, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Sorry I been a bit busy with travel and other releases over the last few weeks.
>
> -1 binding due to vote issues, NOTICE and binaries in source release.
vote details below
binaries in source release?? (you mean from
https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/sirona/0.2-incubating/src/sirona-0.2-incubating-src.zip
)
what are the binaries???
>
> I checked:
> - missing VOTE RESULT and can't tell if there are 3 +1 binding votes or not. There are 4 +1 votes on of which one is not binding but unsure re the others. Only one of the +1 votes is listed as a PMC member here [1] and the project is not listed here [2].
There are currently 2 IPMC votes from: jbonofre and olamy
http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html#jbonofre
http://people.apache.org/committer-index.html#olamy
> - artefact name includes incubating
> - signatures and md5 hash all good
> - DISCLAIMER present
> - LICENSE correct
> - NOTICE file includes too many things (see below)
> - binary files in source release (see bleow)
> - can compile from source
> - test failed (JavaAgent) - up to you if you think this is an issue or not
>
> In the NOTICE file you have:
> SB Admin Theme (Apache)
> Twitter bootstrap (MIT)
> Bootstrap datetimepicker (Apache)
> Table sorter (MIT)
> JQuery (MIT)
> JQuery Flot (MIT)
>
> As per [3] there is not need to modify the NOTICE file when bundling permissive licenses.
Why is it blocker??
>
> Binary file in source release.
> - Font files in resources/fonts. It is unclear how there are these licensed and where are they from.
>
> Some minor thing you may want to fix in future releases.
> - Add a KEY file to the incubating release ares
Already here: https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/incubator/sirona/
> - add "apache" to the release artefact name
> - not sure that DEPENDANCIES is needed
> - probably no need for LICENSE and LICENSE.txt
> - Is year 2008-2013 correct in NOTICE file?
> - No README (how to compile) or RELEASE_NOTES (changes form last version)
> - init-git-svn.sh and siteDeploy.sh scripts are missing license header
> - sb-admin.css missing license header
>
> The test failed with this error:
> [ERROR] Failed to execute goal org.apache.maven.plugins:maven-shade-plugin:2.1:shade (default) on project sirona-javaagent: Error creating shaded jar: /Users/justinmclean/Documents/Sirona0.2/apache-sirona-0.2-incubating/agent/performance/aop/target/classes (Is a directory) -> [Help 1]
>
maybe you are using maven 2.x
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
> 2. http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html
> 3. http://www.apache.org/dev/licensing-howto.html#permissive-deps
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
--
Olivier Lamy
Ecetera: http://ecetera.com.au
http://twitter.com/olamy | http://linkedin.com/in/olamy
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
Sorry I been a bit busy with travel and other releases over the last few weeks.
-1 binding due to vote issues, NOTICE and binaries in source release.
I checked:
- missing VOTE RESULT and can't tell if there are 3 +1 binding votes or not. There are 4 +1 votes on of which one is not binding but unsure re the others. Only one of the +1 votes is listed as a PMC member here [1] and the project is not listed here [2].
- artefact name includes incubating
- signatures and md5 hash all good
- DISCLAIMER present
- LICENSE correct
- NOTICE file includes too many things (see below)
- binary files in source release (see bleow)
- can compile from source
- test failed (JavaAgent) - up to you if you think this is an issue or not
In the NOTICE file you have:
SB Admin Theme (Apache)
Twitter bootstrap (MIT)
Bootstrap datetimepicker (Apache)
Table sorter (MIT)
JQuery (MIT)
JQuery Flot (MIT)
As per [3] there is not need to modify the NOTICE file when bundling permissive licenses.
Binary file in source release.
- Font files in resources/fonts. It is unclear how there are these licensed and where are they from.
Some minor thing you may want to fix in future releases.
- Add a KEY file to the incubating release ares
- add "apache" to the release artefact name
- not sure that DEPENDANCIES is needed
- probably no need for LICENSE and LICENSE.txt
- Is year 2008-2013 correct in NOTICE file?
- No README (how to compile) or RELEASE_NOTES (changes form last version)
- init-git-svn.sh and siteDeploy.sh scripts are missing license header
- sb-admin.css missing license header
The test failed with this error:
[ERROR] Failed to execute goal org.apache.maven.plugins:maven-shade-plugin:2.1:shade (default) on project sirona-javaagent: Error creating shaded jar: /Users/justinmclean/Documents/Sirona0.2/apache-sirona-0.2-incubating/agent/performance/aop/target/classes (Is a directory) -> [Help 1]
Thanks,
Justin
1. http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/team-list.html
2. http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html
3. http://www.apache.org/dev/licensing-howto.html#permissive-deps
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Re: [VOTE] Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
Posted by Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org>.
so it looks this project doesn't have any interest here....
A shame!!
I can maybe propose to nominate some shepherd to watch IPMC members
who doesn't help starting project to make a release :-)
Yup not all project are part of the "big data" buzz and do not make
enough lobbying....
Really funny when I read the other thread which use the word "weight"
for project which cannot release.
I reckon it's really hard sometimes to have fun here.
Cheers
Olivier
On 3 June 2014 22:32, Olivier Lamy <ol...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
> I'd like to release Apache Sirona 0.2-incubating
> We fixed 20 issues:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/ReleaseNote.jspa?version=12325648&styleName=Text&projectId=12314925&Create=Create
>
> Staging Maven repository:
> https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachesirona-1000/
>
> Staging release:
> https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/sirona/0.2-incubating/
>
> Documentation: http://sirona.incubator.apache.org/docs/0.2-incubating/
>
> KEYS file available here:
> https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/release/incubator/sirona/KEYS
>
> Vote thread from dev@ project:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sirona-dev/201405.mbox/browser
>
> Vote open for 72H
>
> +1
> 0
> -1
>
> Thanks!
> --
> Olivier Lamy
> Ecetera: http://ecetera.com.au
> http://twitter.com/olamy | http://linkedin.com/in/olamy
--
Olivier Lamy
Ecetera: http://ecetera.com.au
http://twitter.com/olamy | http://linkedin.com/in/olamy
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