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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> on 2002/05/01 15:54:33 UTC
GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
How interesting, quite a few projects have managed to do it. In fact I
think we've not had very much trouble getting POI to build in it in
months. And really GUMP helped us test out some flaws in our
dependencies (improper dependency directly on log4j which was rapidly
changing its interfaces) and drastically improve things (partly by
switching to commons logging -- poi-user's are raving about it -- its
wonderful). I agree the documentation could be better, and perhaps if
you're having trouble you should work to improve the documentation. I'm
a documentation fascist so I completely agree documentation is
important, but I think its up to each contributer in the community to
work on it. On the POI project we have an unofficial policy of not
blessing things into an official release unless they are sufficiently
documented and unit tested.
I've not had much direct interaction with GUMP (others on the project
have done that fine work) but I will shortly (probably going to push for
it at work....we REALLY need it). I think that GUMP's pain pays off
more than it costs. Say I want to use Maven, but one of its
dependencies turns out to be incompatible with something I'm using in my
project. I think despite the really nice documentation that I'll find
it a bigger pain if I can't use a version of a library that I want
because the Maven guys didn't know it wasn't working with that version.
(because they're not on GUMP). GUMP provides a drastic improvement in
the way your project plays with others. GUMP is part of the answer to
JAR-hell.
I think I'd be resistant to trying an Apache project that wasn't
committed to working on GUMP. Previous to GUMP most projects were known
to be painfully tied to particular versions of particular libraries.
This has gotten a lot better since GUMP came on line.
So while I wish centipede and Maven would work together to create a
better project (like I said, I'm but a pebble in the avalanche), I don't
care which build a project uses. But I do care if Maven has decided not
to build through GUMP as sooner or later I'm going to want to use a
project that uses Maven (assuming its successful) and boy I'll be ticked
if Maven causes dependancy problems that would have been self-resolving
had GUMP been properly used to test it.
Am I volunteering, well no (I can't as continuous integration has to be
an active commitment by a community, and I'm not a part of that
community...partly because builds bore me), but I think I'll change my
position into actively dissuading Maven's use if it isn't integrated
with GUMP as it could have a cascading effect on creating dependency
problems for the projects that use it.
And thats all I have to say about that,
Andy
PS these points are more elegantly stated here:
http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/continuousIntegration.html
James Taylor wrote:
>Yeah, I love wading through GUMP's mess of ant build files, transformed
>xml, generated perl and shell scripts and such, all of which is barely
>documented at BEST. Especially when otherwise I'd have to spend that
>time on things that actually make my project better...
>
>Perhaps that's why (from a Maven guy perspective) centipede is so scary.
>It looks like that nightmare GUMP all over again. Two pages of
>documentation and a 1.0 beta release?! Bah!
>
>-- jt
>
>On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 08:33, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>>Dude...you seriously need to get in line with GUMP. You want to make
>>sure Maven works and works with other Jakarta stuff, well GUMP + Junit
>>is "The Answer". Trust me. I don't feel its sam's job to fix
>>everyone's bugs for them. Sam's pretty good, but I don't think he's
>>that good, I think the rumors of him being omnipresent are exaggerated.
>> Though its rumored that he can be in Redmond, NC and Apache all at once
>>;-) (not a small feat).
>>
>>(so Sam is that worth those slides you promised?)
>>
>
>>>I'll believe it when I see it here...
>>>http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/latest/
>>>
>>>- Sam Ruby
>>>
>
>
>
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RE: cross-project communications
Posted by Rob Oxspring <ro...@imapmail.org>.
Sorry all, my fault!
Since starting that thread I have been swamped with the day job, and
free time has been somewhat filled trying to keep an eye on ant / lucene
/ commons / general lists... Stepping back for a moment I notice this
is an argument for getting on with the newsletter rather than putting it
off, so I'll see if I can get the ball rolling properly this time.
There was some interest and a few subprojects submitted something with a
wide variety of styles / content. If there is still some interest (and
I think these threads have proven the need) then I'll get back on the
case. I'll put together some sort of 0th issue by the end of the
weekend for release on general@. Unless anyone else wants to chuck
anything in, I'll start with the stuff I know (ant, commons) and then
use a mail archive to try and find the "busy" threads of a few other
subprojects (I'll probably take the opportunity to dip into lucene, bcel
& poi -dev and then just see what else I find time for).
Comments / input are welcome, hopefully with lots more after the first
issue!
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:jakarta@ehatchersolutions.com]
Sent: 1 May 2002 19:20
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: cross-project communications
One thing that we discusssed back in late December was setting up a
Jakarta newsletter (look for subject "Jakarta Newsletter" in the
archives).
At that time I volunteered to provide an Ant update, as we discussed
having someone from each project provide updates. For the next month or
so I'm too busy to do anything more than that, but after that I would
volunteer to do more - like roll up the updates from the projects and be
the collector of the news. If someone wants to get the ball rolling on
that it would be great, and I'll jump in very soon to help out.
In the monthly (seems to be the best frequency to use) newsletter we
could announce new projects, new releases, new committers, and any other
general issues that are of interest to folks keeping tabs on the Jakarta
world.
I apologize for not following up on the newsletter thing before. Rob?
Geir? Thoughts? Did either of you do anything since our original
messages?
Erik
----- Original Message -----
From: "Santiago Gala" <sg...@hisitech.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:05 PM
Subject: cross-project communications
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Translation:
> >>>
> >>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> >>> XML = xml.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> >>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using
> >>> Centipede.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it.
> >> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
> >> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out of me. If
> >> I had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> > there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> > Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of
> > Forrest is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
> >
> > Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> > list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> > perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> > scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> > sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> > projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> >
> >
> I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of xml-land (the
> *instanceof* java part).
>
> I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed. Since
> there are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are too
> general for me most of the time.
>
> Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time ago, we
> could reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or some
> similar cross-project structure to ease java development
> communications.
>
> The main points I see are:
>
> - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us are
> related to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
> java-related tools)
> - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
> (build, test, document, ...)
> - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent outside
> instead of being developed there.
>
> Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is potentially
> even bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is
> already?) going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon
> synchronization points does not help much.
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by Erik Hatcher <ja...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
One thing that we discusssed back in late December was setting up a Jakarta
newsletter (look for subject "Jakarta Newsletter" in the archives).
At that time I volunteered to provide an Ant update, as we discussed having
someone from each project provide updates. For the next month or so I'm too
busy to do anything more than that, but after that I would volunteer to do
more - like roll up the updates from the projects and be the collector of
the news. If someone wants to get the ball rolling on that it would be
great, and I'll jump in very soon to help out.
In the monthly (seems to be the best frequency to use) newsletter we could
announce new projects, new releases, new committers, and any other general
issues that are of interest to folks keeping tabs on the Jakarta world.
I apologize for not following up on the newsletter thing before. Rob?
Geir? Thoughts? Did either of you do anything since our original messages?
Erik
----- Original Message -----
From: "Santiago Gala" <sg...@hisitech.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:05 PM
Subject: cross-project communications
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Translation:
> >>>
> >>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> >>> XML = xml.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> >>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it.
> >> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
> >> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out of me. If I
> >> had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> > there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> > Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of Forrest
> > is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
> >
> > Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> > list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> > perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> > scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> > sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> > projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> >
> >
> I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of xml-land (the
> *instanceof* java part).
>
> I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed. Since there
> are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are too general
> for me most of the time.
>
> Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time ago, we could
> reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or some similar
> cross-project structure to ease java development communications.
>
> The main points I see are:
>
> - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us are related
> to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
> java-related tools)
> - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
> (build, test, document, ...)
> - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent outside instead
> of being developed there.
>
> Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is potentially even
> bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is already?)
> going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon synchronization
> points does not help much.
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Oh and I'll help you out Geir in anyway I can in this effort. Just ask.
-Andy
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
>>mail lists?
>>
>
>-1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand,
>we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
>shock them :)
>
>However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to
>moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
>
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Re: xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Call me silly but I don't think votes are necessary. Basically it gets
set up and everyone who wants to get xml-jakarta communications
going...joins.
What I'm most interested in is *would you join*.
How bout it.... Jon, Dion... Pier, Sam...Sylvain...Scott....gang?
-Andy
On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 17:03, Paul Libbrecht wrote:
> I'm not a voter, but it would be interesting I think...
> Paul
>
>
> On Mercredi, mai 1, 2002, at 10:44 , Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> > excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
> > you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
> >
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
> >>> mail lists?
> >>
> >> -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I
> >> understand,
> >> we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
> >> shock them :)
> >>
> >> However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd
> >> volunteer to
> >> moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
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Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Call me silly but I don't think votes are necessary. Basically it gets
set up and everyone who wants to get xml-jakarta communications
going...joins.
What I'm most interested in is *would you join*.
How bout it.... Jon, Dion... Pier, Sam...Sylvain...Scott....gang?
-Andy
On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 17:03, Paul Libbrecht wrote:
> I'm not a voter, but it would be interesting I think...
> Paul
>
>
> On Mercredi, mai 1, 2002, at 10:44 , Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> > excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
> > you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
> >
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
> >>> mail lists?
> >>
> >> -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I
> >> understand,
> >> we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
> >> shock them :)
> >>
> >> However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd
> >> volunteer to
> >> moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by Paul Libbrecht <pa...@activemath.org>.
I'm not a voter, but it would be interesting I think...
Paul
On Mercredi, mai 1, 2002, at 10:44 , Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
> you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
>
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
>>> mail lists?
>>
>> -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I
>> understand,
>> we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
>> shock them :)
>>
>> However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd
>> volunteer to
>> moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
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xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
>>mail lists?
>>
>
>-1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand,
>we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
>shock them :)
>
>However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to
>moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
>
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xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
>>mail lists?
>>
>
>-1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand,
>we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
>shock them :)
>
>However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to
>moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
>
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RE: cross-project communications
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Geir wrote:
> -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from
> what I understand,
> we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community,
> so we might
> shock them :)
ouch - that hurts :-)
</Steven>
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
> mail lists?
-1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand,
we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
shock them :)
However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to
moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
The bytecodes are language independent. - Sam Ruby
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
Actually, I think general@jakarta is often rather high
traffic. Personally, I'd rather not combine them and
receive a lot of potentially irrelevant emails
(particularly non-Java related emails). If a
developer thinks s/he's missing out on Apache XML
activity, there's a very simple solution: subscribe to
general@xml (and vice-versa).
- Morgan
--- "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> What do you think of combining the general@xml and
> general@jakarta
> mail lists? By comparison to most other jakarta/xml
> mail lists I'm on..
> Both
> are relatively low traffic aside from the barrage of
> "Hi We're company X
> with
> an O/R mapping library we want to make into a
> subproject we've not got the
> source online and most of our employees have been
> sacked but we're sure it
> will just interest the heck out of everyone"
> messages, but through a bit
> more discipline
> on all of our parts we could easily reduce the
> thread size of those.
>
> -Andy
>
> >
> > I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just
> looking for constructive
> > solutions.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Santiago
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
=====
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
__________________________________________________
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
mail lists? By comparison to most other jakarta/xml mail lists I'm on..
Both
are relatively low traffic aside from the barrage of "Hi We're company X
with
an O/R mapping library we want to make into a subproject we've not got the
source online and most of our employees have been sacked but we're sure it
will just interest the heck out of everyone" messages, but through a bit
more discipline
on all of our parts we could easily reduce the thread size of those.
-Andy
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
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RE: cross-project communications
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Good point.
I for one am rather 'amused' in the difference of style *and* momentum
in between both general@ lists and projects, and indeed there exists
some partisanship that divides both. Duh. Oh well, part of the fun over
here is exactly participating in this electronic biosphere while
observing 'group dynamics'.
Apparently, the XML style of doing things is a bit more conservative
with regards to the creation of new subprojects, whereas Jakarta has a
history of scratching itches fairly often, and subsubprojects being
graduated to full-blown subprojects as a result of that. And both groups
feel pretty proud of their realisations, which is natural, of course.
Hence the heated discussions when overlap (and competition) comes into
existence.
* On a global level:
Over the past few weeks, there was an avalanche of new project proposals
on the Jakarta list, clearly some people start to believe ASF blessing
of a project is a safehaven for community-poor projects. To the outside
world, it isn't clear what the criteria are for new project proposals
(and indead only Jakarta explicitely lists those at
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html, a pity this hasn't done
(to my knowledge) for the XML site as well, I keep on referring people
to the Jakarta site).
I believe rules for subproject and subsubproject creation should be
clearly stated on an ASF-wide level. Global policies or email contacts
that can give authorative answers to these issues are hard to discover
for newbies (even though I'm following a lot of email lists for the past
2 or 3 years, I still consider myself to be a novice in this regard). To
an outsider, both PMC's operate quite silently (I understand and
appreciate them keeping a low profile and having a supportive instead of
enforcing role), perhaps some joint statements on this matter could
clarify this. IMO, one of the issues to be tackled is the creation of
subsubprojects without some broader consensus (IMO!).
Apart from that, some people, myself included, articulated the need for
having a cross Apache list to discuss issues on commercial activities
(like support and consulting) based on Apache projects, and after some
private communications the common feeling was that we didn't really knew
where to go with our ideas.
So I am all +1 to discuss the need and eventually the setup of some
cross-project communication platform, not just because of Java topics
not being addressed as Santiago indicated, but because we are on the
brink of deteriorating partisanship between both communities. We all
depend on a spirit of rapid consensus and getting on with the work. If
we create a forum where we can ventilate crossproject issues and also
discuss/prepare project integration, the lists where the real work is
carried out are freed from these email avalanches which sometimes leave
a bad taste in one's mouth.
* The Centipede/Maven/Gump 'case':
I'm happy to see that the discussion is finally converging into a
positive and hopefully productive atmosphere. The only remaining
impression is that all of these projects have been build with a need for
coherence in mind, whether that is coherence for building projects,
managing dependencies or having a coherent website (The XML group has
opted to create a subproject Forrest for the latter). Apart from the
choosen solution, I believe presenting a coherent image of both the
Jakarta and XML communities and projects is of vital importance for the
uptake of our lovingly crafted goodies. We see a plethora of initiatives
in this direction nowadays but as the recent heated discussion just has
shown, it would have been better if both communities were aware of each
other a bit sooner.
As an aside from all this emotional stuff, on Forrest: our short term
goal is to provide a facility to build and maintain a coherent
xml.apache.org site. We're not in the business of dependency checking
(Gump is), project/build frameworks (Maven and Centipede are) or XML web
publishing (Cocoon is). By coincidence (and since we didn't know Maven
existed, see my previous statements), we have choosen Centipede to
bootstrap our project, and Cocoon as the publishing engine. I know Maven
does similar stuff on a project-level (correct me if I'm wrong), but
Forrest intends to go xml.apache.org-wide and is clearly
website-focused. But as I said, this is just an aside for people
wondering what all these strange new projects are about ;-)
Just my 2 eurocent,
</Steven>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Santiago Gala [mailto:sgala@hisitech.com]
> Sent: woensdag 1 mei 2002 20:06
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: cross-project communications
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Translation:
> >>>
> >>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> >>> XML = xml.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> >>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is
> using Centipede.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't
> get it.
> >> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
> >> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out
> of me. If I
> >> had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> > there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> > Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose
> of Forrest
> > is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
> >
> > Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> > list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> > perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> > scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> > sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> > projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> >
> >
> I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of
> xml-land (the
> *instanceof* java part).
>
> I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed.
> Since there
> are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are
> too general
> for me most of the time.
>
> Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time
> ago, we could
> reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or
> some similar
> cross-project structure to ease java development communications.
>
> The main points I see are:
>
> - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us
> are related
> to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
> java-related tools)
> - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
> (build, test, document, ...)
> - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent
> outside instead
> of being developed there.
>
> Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is
> potentially even
> bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is
> already?)
> going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon
> synchronization
> points does not help much.
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for
> constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: cross-project communications
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Good point.
I for one am rather 'amused' in the difference of style *and* momentum
in between both general@ lists and projects, and indeed there exists
some partisanship that divides both. Duh. Oh well, part of the fun over
here is exactly participating in this electronic biosphere while
observing 'group dynamics'.
Apparently, the XML style of doing things is a bit more conservative
with regards to the creation of new subprojects, whereas Jakarta has a
history of scratching itches fairly often, and subsubprojects being
graduated to full-blown subprojects as a result of that. And both groups
feel pretty proud of their realisations, which is natural, of course.
Hence the heated discussions when overlap (and competition) comes into
existence.
* On a global level:
Over the past few weeks, there was an avalanche of new project proposals
on the Jakarta list, clearly some people start to believe ASF blessing
of a project is a safehaven for community-poor projects. To the outside
world, it isn't clear what the criteria are for new project proposals
(and indead only Jakarta explicitely lists those at
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html, a pity this hasn't done
(to my knowledge) for the XML site as well, I keep on referring people
to the Jakarta site).
I believe rules for subproject and subsubproject creation should be
clearly stated on an ASF-wide level. Global policies or email contacts
that can give authorative answers to these issues are hard to discover
for newbies (even though I'm following a lot of email lists for the past
2 or 3 years, I still consider myself to be a novice in this regard). To
an outsider, both PMC's operate quite silently (I understand and
appreciate them keeping a low profile and having a supportive instead of
enforcing role), perhaps some joint statements on this matter could
clarify this. IMO, one of the issues to be tackled is the creation of
subsubprojects without some broader consensus (IMO!).
Apart from that, some people, myself included, articulated the need for
having a cross Apache list to discuss issues on commercial activities
(like support and consulting) based on Apache projects, and after some
private communications the common feeling was that we didn't really knew
where to go with our ideas.
So I am all +1 to discuss the need and eventually the setup of some
cross-project communication platform, not just because of Java topics
not being addressed as Santiago indicated, but because we are on the
brink of deteriorating partisanship between both communities. We all
depend on a spirit of rapid consensus and getting on with the work. If
we create a forum where we can ventilate crossproject issues and also
discuss/prepare project integration, the lists where the real work is
carried out are freed from these email avalanches which sometimes leave
a bad taste in one's mouth.
* The Centipede/Maven/Gump 'case':
I'm happy to see that the discussion is finally converging into a
positive and hopefully productive atmosphere. The only remaining
impression is that all of these projects have been build with a need for
coherence in mind, whether that is coherence for building projects,
managing dependencies or having a coherent website (The XML group has
opted to create a subproject Forrest for the latter). Apart from the
choosen solution, I believe presenting a coherent image of both the
Jakarta and XML communities and projects is of vital importance for the
uptake of our lovingly crafted goodies. We see a plethora of initiatives
in this direction nowadays but as the recent heated discussion just has
shown, it would have been better if both communities were aware of each
other a bit sooner.
As an aside from all this emotional stuff, on Forrest: our short term
goal is to provide a facility to build and maintain a coherent
xml.apache.org site. We're not in the business of dependency checking
(Gump is), project/build frameworks (Maven and Centipede are) or XML web
publishing (Cocoon is). By coincidence (and since we didn't know Maven
existed, see my previous statements), we have choosen Centipede to
bootstrap our project, and Cocoon as the publishing engine. I know Maven
does similar stuff on a project-level (correct me if I'm wrong), but
Forrest intends to go xml.apache.org-wide and is clearly
website-focused. But as I said, this is just an aside for people
wondering what all these strange new projects are about ;-)
Just my 2 eurocent,
</Steven>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Santiago Gala [mailto:sgala@hisitech.com]
> Sent: woensdag 1 mei 2002 20:06
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: cross-project communications
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Translation:
> >>>
> >>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> >>> XML = xml.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> >>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is
> using Centipede.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't
> get it.
> >> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
> >> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out
> of me. If I
> >> had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> > there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> > Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose
> of Forrest
> > is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
> >
> > Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> > list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> > perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> > scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> > sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> > projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> >
> >
> I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of
> xml-land (the
> *instanceof* java part).
>
> I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed.
> Since there
> are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are
> too general
> for me most of the time.
>
> Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time
> ago, we could
> reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or
> some similar
> cross-project structure to ease java development communications.
>
> The main points I see are:
>
> - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us
> are related
> to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
> java-related tools)
> - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
> (build, test, document, ...)
> - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent
> outside instead
> of being developed there.
>
> Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is
> potentially even
> bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is
> already?)
> going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon
> synchronization
> points does not help much.
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for
> constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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cross-project communications
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Translation:
>>>
>>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
>>> XML = xml.apache.org
>>>
>>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
>>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it.
>> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
>> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out of me. If I
>> had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
>
>
>
> Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of Forrest
> is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
>
> Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
>
>
I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of xml-land (the
*instanceof* java part).
I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed. Since there
are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are too general
for me most of the time.
Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time ago, we could
reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or some similar
cross-project structure to ease java development communications.
The main points I see are:
- xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us are related
to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
java-related tools)
- a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
(build, test, document, ...)
- infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent outside instead
of being developed there.
Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is potentially even
bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is already?)
going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon synchronization
points does not help much.
I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive
solutions.
Regards,
Santiago
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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
> Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of Forrest
> is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
>
> Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
>
>
FYI, I think we plan to use forrest and I'm working with the forrest
guys to add the features we need. I regret I cannot take a more active
role in the Forrest community but I'm heavily involved in Formulas for
Jakarta POI and working on some stuff for Cocoon, so I'll continue to
work on providing what help I can and hopefully we can move POI's site
generation to forrest instead of running off my own PC. My ommission of
Forrest was mostly because the integration provided to it by the
*forrest* cent makes me not think of it. . Its a given.
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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> Translation:
>>
>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
>> XML = xml.apache.org
>>
>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede.
>>
>>
>
> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it. "Gee
> we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with anything but
> this or that". It just baffles the crap out of me.
> If I had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of Forrest
is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> Translation:
>
> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> XML = xml.apache.org
>
> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede.
>
>
Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it. "Gee
we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with anything but
this or that". It just baffles the crap out of me.
If I had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
-Andy the pebble.
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RE: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Berin wrote:
> Translation:
>
> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> XML = xml.apache.org
>
> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede.
I wouldn't say so - while I would like the idea. But if this is the kind
of discussion necessary to convince others to use one's pet-project, I'd
rather pass on the opportunity :-|
Thanks for your Reality Check - this is effectively what we need right
now. I'm under the impression that features, integration & design are
becoming less important than bigmouthing one another.
OK - let's get back to business now :-)
</Steven>
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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Berin,
>
>
>>How does that match up with the NIH attitude towards Krysalis?
>>
>>I wasn't aware of a Jakarta/XML project named cruise control.?
>
> ^^^^
>
> Hey, this is a _general@jakarta.apache.org_ discussion. For some strange
> and perhaps slightly biased reason, I'm not too surprised threads like
> these don't exist across the wall in general@xml.apache.org country.
>
> One wonders... testosteron?
>
> </Steven>
>
> (ducking away, asbesto suit on)
>
Translation:
Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
XML = xml.apache.org
And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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RE: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Berin,
> How does that match up with the NIH attitude towards Krysalis?
>
> I wasn't aware of a Jakarta/XML project named cruise control.?
^^^^
Hey, this is a _general@jakarta.apache.org_ discussion. For some strange
and perhaps slightly biased reason, I'm not too surprised threads like
these don't exist across the wall in general@xml.apache.org country.
One wonders... testosteron?
</Steven>
(ducking away, asbesto suit on)
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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
James Taylor wrote:
>
>
> Yes! All of us over in maven land are big fans of continuous
> integration. We were in discussion with the cruise control folks about
> working together, and are planning on integrating the best features from
> it into maven so that any project with a descriptor can immediately be
> set of for continuous integration (since maven supports version control
> and unit/integration tests out of the box, this is going to be quite
> easy (and fun!) to implement.
How does that match up with the NIH attitude towards Krysalis?
I wasn't aware of a Jakarta/XML project named cruise control.?
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>Yes! All of us over in maven land are big fans of continuous
>integration. We were in discussion with the cruise control folks about
>working together, and are planning on integrating the best features from
>it into maven so that any project with a descriptor can immediately be
>set of for continuous integration (since maven supports version control
>and unit/integration tests out of the box, this is going to be quite
>easy (and fun!) to implement.
>
So then we'll have two projects in the GUMP space too? Boy you guys
don't like to collaborate with certain people here huh? Why is that?
>
>-- jt
>
>
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>
>
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Re: GUMP RULEZ WAS: Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!
Posted by James Taylor <jt...@4lane.com>.
> How interesting, quite a few projects have managed to do it.
Obviously we are far less competent, intelligent, or dedicated then
those other projects. All things I am perfectly willing to accept as
long as you don't make me look at GUMP again.
> more than it costs. Say I want to use Maven, but one of its
> dependencies turns out to be incompatible with something I'm using in my
> project. I think despite the really nice documentation that I'll find
> it a bigger pain if I can't use a version of a library that I want
Just to clarify for the general audience, Maven does not introduce any
of its dependencies into the classpath for a project it is building,
thus there should be noe problems of this sort. Maven also allows your
project to specify dependencies on a specific version of another project
without trouble. There are still some kinks to work out with the
repository and naming and auto downloading and such, but none of what is
outlined here _should_ be a problem.
> http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/continuousIntegration.html
Yes! All of us over in maven land are big fans of continuous
integration. We were in discussion with the cruise control folks about
working together, and are planning on integrating the best features from
it into maven so that any project with a descriptor can immediately be
set of for continuous integration (since maven supports version control
and unit/integration tests out of the box, this is going to be quite
easy (and fun!) to implement.
-- jt
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