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Posted to users@maven.apache.org by Josh Long <st...@gmail.com> on 2008/08/22 10:07:09 UTC
Making the case for Maven to managment
Hi everyone,
I'm trying to make a case for Maven and I'm going to need to provide a
better reason than "it's better than a kick in the face!" to managment. I'm
at a bank, so everything is subject to heavy scrutiny. Essentially, our
project hardly compiles and is so untestable that upon check out no less
than 5 files need to change to get it to the point where we can compile it
(once we've created a working project in either IntelliJ or Eclipse, which
has hitherto never been too successful. Some of us just ant deploy every
change instead of iteratively deploying using our IDE's weblogic facilities.
So basically, I know I could solve the file issues with Maven profiles. I
know that using the Maven site plugin and reports like PMD and JUnit and so
on I could provide great "dashboard" like functionality into our
application. I know that I can solve the broken project descriptors, too.
All with Maven, but strictly speaking these are technically still "process"
enhancements, which come down as a liability.
In terms of shear "resource" hours, I should imagine 10 hours or so to get
our two projects moved over and acheive parity with our current Ant script
and even perhaps to solve all the Eclipse/IntelliJ nonsense and get decent,
default mvn site generation, and to change our existing production support
script which is Ant to interface with the ant script Maven will generate for
us. Basically, it won't take a lot. But that's not enough.
How do I make this case in the face of so hostile a mentality? Have you ever
had to make the case? Any insight on how to move forward would be
appreciated.
Thanks,
Joshua Long
Sun Certified Java Programmer
http://www.joshlong.com/
Re: import project into Eclipse 3.4
Posted by Josh Long <st...@gmail.com>.
If you're just trying to import it into Eclipse, then you should just
create an Enterprise ear project and a Dynamic Web Project and add the
source code to the Dynamic Web Project. Make sure you select your
compiler and that you add the Dynamic Web Project. Or, maybe the
configuration files for Eclipse that seem to be already present (the
.classpath is a tell) will work if you just import the project into
Eclipse? Either way, importing into Eclipse by setting up a Maven
project is a long way around.
If you had a valid Maven project structure, then you'd just run mvn
eclipse:eclipse and it would generate working Eclipse project
descriptors (the .classpath/.project I just mentioned) ear/war
configuration that you could then use to import into Eclipse.
Sorry if this doesn't answer the question entirely, but hopefully it
will be insightful.
Thanks,
Josh
On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 6:53 AM, sam wun <sw...@gmx.com> wrote:
> HI,
>
>
>
> I downloaded a sample project eg. com.eclipsedistilled.catalog in my
> c:\DEV\samples\ directory.
>
> eg.
>
> c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog
>
> c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\bin
>
> c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\src
>
> c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\.classpath
>
> c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\.cvsignore
>
> c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\.project
>
>
>
> I heard that we have to use maven to create a project (war / ear) file in
> order to import it into eclipse.
>
> What is the procedure/steps to do that?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Joshua Long
Sun Certified Java Programmer
http://www.joshlong.com/
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import project into Eclipse 3.4
Posted by sam wun <sw...@gmx.com>.
HI,
I downloaded a sample project eg. com.eclipsedistilled.catalog in my
c:\DEV\samples\ directory.
eg.
c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog
c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\bin
c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\src
c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\.classpath
c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\.cvsignore
c:\DEV\samples\com.eclipsedistilled.cataglog\.project
I heard that we have to use maven to create a project (war / ear) file in
order to import it into eclipse.
What is the procedure/steps to do that?
Thanks
Re: Making the case for Maven to managment
Posted by Alex <pi...@googlemail.com>.
Hi Josh,
I'm starting migrating some projects to maven and personally I think
that maven is the way to go because of three things (the 3 selling
arguments I've used at work ;-) :
1. we can locate a project or a project module (an artifact in maven
terminology) in space and time, i.e. we specify a maven coordinate (
repository url, groupId, artifactId, version) to what we are producing
and as a consequence we're able to reference it in other projects.
Previously to maven copying jars around was a really nightmare.
2. The POM (Project Object Model). We specify how a project looks like
and let the plugins do the work. The nice thing about it is that the
plugins are artifacts themselves and can be therefore easily located,
downloaded and used.
3. Standard directory layout. Previously to maven we had a hard time
trying to find a mutual consent on how the project structure should look
like. The problem was that different groups work on different projects
and we were not sure which layout would best fit our needs. Having a
proposed layout from maven was at least a very good starting point.
Cheers
Alex
Josh Long wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm trying to make a case for Maven and I'm going to need to provide a
> better reason than "it's better than a kick in the face!" to managment. I'm
> at a bank, so everything is subject to heavy scrutiny. Essentially, our
> project hardly compiles and is so untestable that upon check out no less
> than 5 files need to change to get it to the point where we can compile it
> (once we've created a working project in either IntelliJ or Eclipse, which
> has hitherto never been too successful. Some of us just ant deploy every
> change instead of iteratively deploying using our IDE's weblogic facilities.
>
>
> So basically, I know I could solve the file issues with Maven profiles. I
> know that using the Maven site plugin and reports like PMD and JUnit and so
> on I could provide great "dashboard" like functionality into our
> application. I know that I can solve the broken project descriptors, too.
> All with Maven, but strictly speaking these are technically still "process"
> enhancements, which come down as a liability.
>
> In terms of shear "resource" hours, I should imagine 10 hours or so to get
> our two projects moved over and acheive parity with our current Ant script
> and even perhaps to solve all the Eclipse/IntelliJ nonsense and get decent,
> default mvn site generation, and to change our existing production support
> script which is Ant to interface with the ant script Maven will generate for
> us. Basically, it won't take a lot. But that's not enough.
>
> How do I make this case in the face of so hostile a mentality? Have you ever
> had to make the case? Any insight on how to move forward would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Joshua Long
> Sun Certified Java Programmer
> http://www.joshlong.com/
>
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Re: Making the case for Maven to managment
Posted by Geoffrey Wiseman <ge...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 4:07 AM, Josh Long <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How do I make this case in the face of so hostile a mentality? Have you
> ever
> had to make the case? Any insight on how to move forward would be
> appreciated.
>
Well: you believe it'll solve some problems for you. Look at those problems
and solutions and see if any of them matter to the people to whom you'll be
making the case, or if the ancillary effects (the time it takes to make a
change, the reliability of the software) might matter to them.
Secondarily, try and make yourself aware of the problems that they believe
they face, and whether or not Maven can help with those -- ultimately, if
you make your case in terms of the things they care about, that's where
you're most likely to make an impact. It's hard for me to know, on the
outside, who those people are, what they care about, the problems for which
they'd like solutions, and so forth, so I can only give you the advice on
this generic level.
Ultimately, though, if you've already got Ant, I'd say that there aren't a
ton of problems that you can solve with Maven that you can't solve with Ant;
you might find the one or the other more to your liking, but if you can't
get through these issues with Ant, I'm not certain that you'll be able to do
so with Maven. (There are a few areas where the capabilities Maven stands
out from Ant; things like metadata about dependencies that, if reliable, can
tell you the license of the project, and so forth, but I find those to be
the exception rather than the rule).
- Geoffrey
--
Geoffrey Wiseman
Re: Making the case for Maven to managment
Posted by "Mark H. Wood" <mw...@IUPUI.Edu>.
Nah, we can drop "ideology" in the bitbucket. It's a matter of using
the tool that best does the job.
Maven is really good at representing the structure of large, complex
projects simply, and pretty good at organizing the large-scale flow of
operations involved in realizing them. Ant is rather good at giving
you very close control of how specific tasks are carried out, when you
are willing to do a lot of writing. Together they make a good team.
You may find that specific step-by-step processing which is difficult
to express in Maven is easily accomplished in Ant, and that structures
which are overwhelmingly wordy in Ant become concise and natural in
Maven.
So, if you need both, use both. But use each where it helps more than
it hurts. If you can do 90% of the task faster and with fewer
mistakes in Maven, use it for that 90%. If the last 10% won't go in
naturally, then use Ant for the 10% -- forcing the tool is one common
source of errors and delays.
--
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mwood@IUPUI.Edu
Typically when a software vendor says that a product is "intuitive" he
means the exact opposite.
Re: Making the case for Maven to managment
Posted by Piotr Oktaba <pi...@coconet.pl>.
Hi,
There is maven-ant-plugin which allows you to do everything which you
can do in ant.
However, you shouldn't use it too much because it is inconsistent with
maven ideology :).
Cheers,
Piotr Oktaba
On Fri, 2008-08-22 at 14:25 +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> Hi,
>
> having survived an Ant->Maven migration process, I would advise you to
> really be sure that Maven supports out of the box all the things you are
> already
> doing with Ant.
>
> Otherwise you might get some nasty surprises, that would fragile your
> position.
>
> Maven is a nice tool, but if it does not support out of the box something,
> you might
> have a huge task ahead.
>
> Regards,
> Paulo
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Josh Long <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I'm trying to make a case for Maven and I'm going to need to provide a
> > better reason than "it's better than a kick in the face!" to managment. I'm
> > at a bank, so everything is subject to heavy scrutiny. Essentially, our
> > project hardly compiles and is so untestable that upon check out no less
> > than 5 files need to change to get it to the point where we can compile it
> > (once we've created a working project in either IntelliJ or Eclipse, which
> > has hitherto never been too successful. Some of us just ant deploy every
> > change instead of iteratively deploying using our IDE's weblogic
> > facilities.
> >
> >
> > So basically, I know I could solve the file issues with Maven profiles. I
> > know that using the Maven site plugin and reports like PMD and JUnit and so
> > on I could provide great "dashboard" like functionality into our
> > application. I know that I can solve the broken project descriptors, too.
> > All with Maven, but strictly speaking these are technically still "process"
> > enhancements, which come down as a liability.
> >
> > In terms of shear "resource" hours, I should imagine 10 hours or so to get
> > our two projects moved over and acheive parity with our current Ant script
> > and even perhaps to solve all the Eclipse/IntelliJ nonsense and get decent,
> > default mvn site generation, and to change our existing production support
> > script which is Ant to interface with the ant script Maven will generate
> > for
> > us. Basically, it won't take a lot. But that's not enough.
> >
> > How do I make this case in the face of so hostile a mentality? Have you
> > ever
> > had to make the case? Any insight on how to move forward would be
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Joshua Long
> > Sun Certified Java Programmer
> > http://www.joshlong.com/
> >
Re: Making the case for Maven to managment
Posted by Paulo Pinto <pa...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
having survived an Ant->Maven migration process, I would advise you to
really be sure that Maven supports out of the box all the things you are
already
doing with Ant.
Otherwise you might get some nasty surprises, that would fragile your
position.
Maven is a nice tool, but if it does not support out of the box something,
you might
have a huge task ahead.
Regards,
Paulo
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Josh Long <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm trying to make a case for Maven and I'm going to need to provide a
> better reason than "it's better than a kick in the face!" to managment. I'm
> at a bank, so everything is subject to heavy scrutiny. Essentially, our
> project hardly compiles and is so untestable that upon check out no less
> than 5 files need to change to get it to the point where we can compile it
> (once we've created a working project in either IntelliJ or Eclipse, which
> has hitherto never been too successful. Some of us just ant deploy every
> change instead of iteratively deploying using our IDE's weblogic
> facilities.
>
>
> So basically, I know I could solve the file issues with Maven profiles. I
> know that using the Maven site plugin and reports like PMD and JUnit and so
> on I could provide great "dashboard" like functionality into our
> application. I know that I can solve the broken project descriptors, too.
> All with Maven, but strictly speaking these are technically still "process"
> enhancements, which come down as a liability.
>
> In terms of shear "resource" hours, I should imagine 10 hours or so to get
> our two projects moved over and acheive parity with our current Ant script
> and even perhaps to solve all the Eclipse/IntelliJ nonsense and get decent,
> default mvn site generation, and to change our existing production support
> script which is Ant to interface with the ant script Maven will generate
> for
> us. Basically, it won't take a lot. But that's not enough.
>
> How do I make this case in the face of so hostile a mentality? Have you
> ever
> had to make the case? Any insight on how to move forward would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Joshua Long
> Sun Certified Java Programmer
> http://www.joshlong.com/
>