Fwd: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>]

Thank you~

Xintong Song



---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>


Hi Chesnay,

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on the
ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication channels
are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
already.

I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years.
We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even
more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more
discussions and Q&As are happening.
2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead of
maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are proposing
to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of *moving*
the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
addition to the ML.

Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR, these
are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
please let me know.

> 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't
> run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
> territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can provide
> information to the contrary, please do so.

2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All of
> these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires an
> @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes the
> target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer something
> that is also available to contributors.


I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward this
to dev@ and user@ ML.

Thank you~

Xintong Song


[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
[2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
[3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
[4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
[5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:

> This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
> rejected every time.
>
> I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the previously
> raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>
> This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the project
> as a whole.
>
> On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>
> Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>
> I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
> I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> are using Slack as the community base camp.
>
> Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions and
> use cases.
> I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection to
> the Flink users.
> We can create more channels to make the community have more social
> attributes, for example,
>  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
> related to Flink in the #shows channel
>  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>
> Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up the
> Flink slack and maintain it.
>
> Best,
> Jark
>
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
>> workspace.
>>
>> ## Motivation
>> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
>> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing, should
>> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for ad-hoc
>> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from different
>> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a common
>> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to create
>> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
>>
>> ## Benefits
>> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
>> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that help
>> improve the communication efficiency.
>> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
>> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>
>> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
>> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be able to
>> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
>> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
>> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the Apache
>> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack. Long
>> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted on the
>> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time discussion.
>>
>> ## Responsiveness
>> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive. We
>> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are volunteers.
>> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the peers
>> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
>> others to always be responsive.
>>
>> ## Archivability and searchability
>> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its lack of
>> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There are
>> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we may
>> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing lists.
>> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the mailing
>> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
>>
>> ## Other communities
>> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or not)
>> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase [4]
>> etc.
>>
>> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an official
>> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that, I’d like
>> to hear more about what you think.
>>
>> Thank you~
>>
>> Xintong Song
>>
>>
>> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>
>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Kyle Bendickson <ky...@tabular.io>]

Sorry for the delay in response.

> Nice, cool to hear Kyle! How do you all approach moderation?

Moderation has generally not been a problem so far. So unfortunately I
can’t answer that from experience. But if there’s an existing code of
conduct amongst Apache or within Flink that would probably be sufficient.
For dealing with any nefarious actors at the least.

>  Is there anything specific you feel like you've "gotten right"/ other
tips?

Keeping channels few, with only some breakout rooms.

For Flink, that might be larger than us (we’re probably at 7 or so).

But generally smaller has been better as it’s less to catch up on. We have
general + some channels for our priority 1 stuff (new Python library,
secondary indexing, etc).

- Cross posting important PRs and design docs from the mailing list.

Some people naturally gravitate towards slack. If it’s big and/or important
and you’d like many eyes (like a design doc), posting it in the channel of
relevant folks can help attract more interested folks who might otherwise
be lurkers

We admittedly get a lot of newer contributors this way; which is something
we welcome. Especially as the number of “peripheral” areas grow.

For the proposal, I’d be +1 (obviously non-binding) and think it’s a good
direction to head in. We then use Google groups to set up regular community
sync ups that people can join (not sure what you do there - if anything -
but we get a pretty good turn out)!

- Kyle

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 12:33 AM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks a lot Kyle!
>
> What do you think of concluding this discussion and starting a VOTE about:
> 1. Setting up a PMC controlled Slack instance for the Flink community
> 2. Updating the Flink website about the various communication channels
> 3. Setting up an Archive for our Slack instance
> 4. Revisiting this initiative by the end of 2022.
>
> Xintong, do you want to start the VOTE on dev@?
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:41 PM Austin Cawley-Edwards <
> austin.cawley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Nice, cool to hear Kyle! How do you all approach moderation? Is there
> > anything specific you feel like you've "gotten right"/ other tips?
> >
> > (as a side note, I also love slack).
> >
> > Austin
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 2:27 PM Kyle Bendickson <ky...@tabular.io> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as
> > > well, that I am admittedly proud of.
> > >
> > > We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we
> > do
> > > get some noise now and again.
> > >
> > > Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and
> things
> > as
> > > one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg.
> > >
> > > So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough.
> > >
> > > Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability
> to
> > > attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not
> receive
> > as
> > > quickly.
> > >
> > > A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves
> as
> > > “prominent” enough but will speak up on slack.
> > >
> > > So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me).
> > >
> > > Feel free to reach out if you have any questions!
> > >
> > > - Kyle
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards <
> > > austin.cawley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt
> > > community[1],
> > > > which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack
> in a
> > > > large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their
> Slack
> > > has
> > > > become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community
> > > space —
> > > > given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face
> similar
> > > > challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial
> > > > setup/guidelines.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Austin
> > > >
> > > > [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
> > > > > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion
> > forum
> > > > (I
> > > > > like the idea of using GH discussions)
> > > > >
> > > > > Besides, we still need to investigate how
> > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is the code used by airflow:
> > https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive
> > > .
> > > > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to
> > > entry
> > > > >> as Jingsong mentioned.
> > > > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how
> > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
> > > > >> complementary.
> > > > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But
> > what
> > > > we
> > > > >> are seeking today
> > > > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc
> > > questions
> > > > >> and interactions.
> > > > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing
> > > list
> > > > >> but can't solve the problems
> > > > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and
> thoughtful
> > > > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for
> > > Flink
> > > > >> and keep this thread focused
> > > > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for
> example
> > > > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful
> > > > >>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub
> > Discussion
> > > as
> > > > >> their forum.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best,
> > > > >> Jark
> > > > >>
> > > > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
> > > > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <
> martijn@ververica.com
> > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide
> > the
> > > > best
> > > > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
> > > > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on
> how
> > > to
> > > > >>> use
> > > > >>> Slack.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Best regards,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Martijn
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> > Hi all,
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain.
> > > > However,
> > > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product
> > could
> > > be
> > > > >>> > leveraged easily.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the
> ASF
> > > > slack
> > > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up
> our
> > > own
> > > > >>> slack
> > > > >>> > workspace.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Best
> > > > >>> > Yun Tang
> > > > >>> > ------------------------------
> > > > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> > > > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> > > > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
> workspace
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Hi all,
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the
> > Apache
> > > > >>> Druid
> > > > >>> > community. [1]
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for
> > new
> > > > >>> users
> > > > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid
> > Slack
> > > > >>> channel.
> > > > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
> > > > >>> workspace
> > > > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with
> spammers.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html),
> > new
> > > > >>> > community
> > > > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests.
> > > > Unfortunately,
> > > > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new
> > > > members,
> > > > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone
> with
> > > > full
> > > > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new
> members.
> > > > This
> > > > >>> lack
> > > > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > There is a workaround in place (
> > > > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users
> > can
> > > > >>> send an
> > > > >>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to
> the
> > > > Slack
> > > > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a
> barrier
> > to
> > > > >>> entry,
> > > > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates
> potential
> > > > >>> privacy
> > > > >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using
> > > Druid
> > > > >>> nor
> > > > >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > [1]
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Best,
> > > > >>> > Jingsong
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <
> > > tonysong820@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs
> none
> > > and
> > > > >>> then
> > > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is
> there
> > > > >>> anything
> > > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the
> > > implementation?
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative
> is
> > > more
> > > > >>> about
> > > > >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making
> > > information
> > > > >>> > easier
> > > > >>> > > to find.
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> > > > knaufk@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some
> > > people
> > > > >>> have
> > > > >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a
> > > mailing
> > > > >>> list.
> > > > >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages,
> sign
> > up
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > search
> > > > >>> > >> is easier.
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs
> > none
> > > > and
> > > > >>> then
> > > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is
> there
> > > > >>> anything
> > > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the
> > > implementation?
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> > > > >>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and
> "Getting
> > > > Help"
> > > > >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and
> > Slack,
> > > > >>> and on
> > > > >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm
> > with
> > > > >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more
> > channels
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > keeping
> > > > >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles,
> > > adding
> > > > >>> bots,
> > > > >>> > etc.
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication
> > > efficiency
> > > > >>> when
> > > > >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such
> > improvement
> > > > >>> would
> > > > >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
> > > > >>> perspective,
> > > > >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative
> to
> > > > >>> Slack. I
> > > > >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information
> > organized
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > easy to
> > > > >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance
> > > > overhead.
> > > > >>> I'm
> > > > >>> > not
> > > > >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is
> that
> > > > they
> > > > >>> are
> > > > >>> > not
> > > > >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> > > > >>> knaufk@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty
> much
> > > with
> > > > >>> Timo
> > > > >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user
> > > > >>> community, and
> > > > >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion,
> etc. I
> > > > >>> > definitely see
> > > > >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if
> > users
> > > > are
> > > > >>> > >>>> intimidated.
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka
> > > > Slack.
> > > > >>> This
> > > > >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and
> thoughtful
> > > > >>> > discussion
> > > > >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum,
> where
> > > it
> > > > is
> > > > >>> > easier
> > > > >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes
> > > more
> > > > >>> sense
> > > > >>> > to
> > > > >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and
> > > > vibrant
> > > > >>> > than a
> > > > >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse
> would
> > > have
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably
> > > > self-host
> > > > >>> it
> > > > >>> > on an
> > > > >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a
> > > > >>> dedicated
> > > > >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we
> > > could
> > > > >>> have
> > > > >>> > more
> > > > >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> > > > >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could
> > > > generally
> > > > >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we
> > go
> > > > for
> > > > >>> > Slack,
> > > > >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we
> > do
> > > > >>> this, we
> > > > >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack
> > > > itself.
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> Konstantin
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> > > > >>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue.
> The
> > > > Flink
> > > > >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be
> > > useful
> > > > >>> for
> > > > >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The
> > > DingTalk
> > > > >>> > channel of
> > > > >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to
> see.
> > > It
> > > > >>> could
> > > > >>> > also
> > > > >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering
> frequently
> > > > asked
> > > > >>> > questions.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to
> > > design
> > > > >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
> > > > >>> definitely
> > > > >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that
> users
> > > > might
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>> > want
> > > > >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and
> > get
> > > > >>> their
> > > > >>> > mailbox
> > > > >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a
> > > company
> > > > >>> > setting it
> > > > >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for
> > > > mailing
> > > > >>> > lists and
> > > > >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We
> should
> > > find
> > > > >>> an
> > > > >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the
> right
> > > > >>> tool. It
> > > > >>> > might
> > > > >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit?
> The
> > > > latter
> > > > >>> > would
> > > > >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine.
> Discourse
> > > is
> > > > >>> > actually
> > > > >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Regards,
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Timo
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for
> > sharing
> > > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
> > > > >>> discussions
> > > > >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the
> > community
> > > > can
> > > > >>> > reach out
> > > > >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we
> will
> > > > need a
> > > > >>> > paid
> > > > >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy
> enough
> > > > >>> (took me
> > > > >>> > about
> > > > >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down
> this
> > > > route.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> David
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > > >>> rmetzger@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink
> > > > >>> website for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no
> time-expiration,
> > > but
> > > > >>> they
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (
> > > > https://s.apache.org)
> > > > >>> > that
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
> > > > >>> solution,
> > > > >>> > but it'll
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> work.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> (1)
> > > > >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
> > > > >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > >>> ASF
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>
> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF
> > instance
> > > of
> > > > >>> > Slack,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> you can
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're
> > invited
> > > > by a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
> > > > >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks
> for
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance
> > instead
> > > > of
> > > > >>> > using
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are
> retained
> > > > >>> forever,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack
> > > instance,
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> could
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some
> more
> > > > effort
> > > > >>> > into
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that
> Slack
> > > for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developer
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and
> > flink-pmc
> > > > >>> chat.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the
> > > > "Community"
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are
> the
> > > > >>> "ground
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate
> faster
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't
> > > > respond
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be
> nice
> > to
> > > > >>> find
> > > > >>> > some
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple
> > > > indexing
> > > > >>> > tool.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because
> of
> > > > some
> > > > >>> bad
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where
> most
> > > of
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few
> > > weeks
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find that
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing,
> but
> > I
> > > > >>> would
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if
> > > really
> > > > >>> all
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> important
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists,
> and
> > > > that
> > > > >>> we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> get the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better
> > experience
> > > > for
> > > > >>> > users
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns
> (DMs
> > to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about
> using
> > > > >>> Slack for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> dev
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected
> > > back
> > > > >>> to the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
> > > > >>> specifies
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what people
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers
> > > /committers,
> > > > I
> > > > >>> > think
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> that also
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd
> > > understand
> > > > a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the
> > cod
> > > of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the
> > major
> > > > >>> concern
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions
> > from
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
> > > > >>> historical
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution
> for
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like
> Zapier
> > > [1],
> > > > >>> but
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
> > > > >>> arguments.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication
> > > more
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question
> > > askers
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice /
> > > video
> > > > >>> > calls,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is
> needed,
> > > as
> > > > >>> David
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
> > > > >>> attentions on
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can
> > probably
> > > > put
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> into the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first
> > search
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the
> > Flink
> > > > >>> China
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members
> > (might
> > > be
> > > > >>> less,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily.
> > > What
> > > > >>> I'm
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> really
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions
> > between
> > > > >>> users &
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users than
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each
> > > other,
> > > > >>> > sharing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
> > > > >>> documentations
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get
> > pinged,
> > > > if
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are
> way
> > > > more
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
> > > > >>> improvement of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
> > > > >>> repeatedly
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to
> the
> > > > >>> benefit
> > > > >>> > of a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see
> if
> > > we
> > > > >>> can
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
> > > > >>> attention
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> from the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder,
> > Piotr
> > > &
> > > > >>> David.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I think
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual
> > > > exclusive.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have
> set
> > > up
> > > > >>> their
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache
> Druid
> > > [2],
> > > > >>> etc.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
> > > > >>> communicate
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more
> effective.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about
> > > whether
> > > > >>> there
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in
> > the
> > > > >>> slack,
> > > > >>> > to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to
> > the
> > > > >>> mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we
> > > need
> > > > to
> > > > >>> > do).
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow,
> and
> > > as
> > > > a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but
> > want
> > > > to
> > > > >>> do
> > > > >>> > it
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> on a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and
> > > > shared.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on
> > > stack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
> > > > >>> necessary
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has
> the
> > > > >>> > collective
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> energy
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack
> > > overflow
> > > > >>> would
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for
> > users
> > > > to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> request help
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support
> on
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> existing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to
> burnout.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but
> > very
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to
> > figure
> > > > out
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the
> requirements
> > > are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> > > > >>> > circumstances,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> something
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or
> > stack
> > > > >>> > overflow.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those
> > mentioned
> > > > in
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> previous
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits
> of
> > > > >>> having a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact
> > > that
> > > > >>> this
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack
> > > channel.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd
> > imagine
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
> > > > >>> channel, a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today,
> > > which
> > > > >>> leaves
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no public
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained
> > by
> > > > the
> > > > >>> > Flink
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I
> think
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the
> emails
> > > are
> > > > >>> good
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> starting
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it
> > goes.
> > > > In
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> worst
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where
> we
> > > are
> > > > >>> right
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> now.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser
> <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside
> (the
> > > > >>> results
> > > > >>> > are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link
> directly
> > > to
> > > > >>> Slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> content
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open
> source
> > > > space
> > > > >>> has
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's
> > > invaluable
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like
> Apache
> > > > >>> Airflow
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
> > > > >>> community.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start
> > > DMing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR
> > merged.
> > > > >>> That can
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need
> > to
> > > > >>> > establish
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for
> > the
> > > > >>> job. IMO
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it works
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between
> > developers,
> > > > but
> > > > >>> > it's
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it
> > works
> > > > >>> fine, as
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> long as
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
> > > > >>> JIRA/mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely
> > > > difficult
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering
> the
> > > > same
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to
> > > > provide a
> > > > >>> > link
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
> > > > >>> space/channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for
> > such
> > > > >>> > channels
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on,
> > for
> > > > >>> example,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers
> > > (not
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make
> > it
> > > > fit
> > > > >>> our
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use case
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong820@gmail.com
> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache
> > > Flink
> > > > >>> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this
> > is
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] &
> > [2],
> > > > >>> which
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are
> > > asking
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4].
> > Besides,
> > > I
> > > > >>> also
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
> > > > >>> alternative
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is
> > > quite
> > > > >>> open
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to having
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been
> > worked
> > > > >>> well for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> many
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this
> > discussion
> > > > >>> again:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have
> > > change
> > > > >>> > during
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the past
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including
> > > committers
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > PMC
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> members,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
> > > > >>> timezones.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> That also
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
> > > > >>> previous
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
> > > > >>> workspace,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
> > > > >>> workspace.
> > > > >>> > And
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> instead
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing
> to
> > > > add a
> > > > >>> > Slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from
> > your
> > > > >>> previous
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack
> Workspace.
> > > If
> > > > I
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this
> > service
> > > > >>> into
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official
> > ASF
> > > > >>> > service.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do
> so.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the
> mailing
> > > > lists,
> > > > >>> > JIRA
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public,
> whereas
> > > the
> > > > >>> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to
> be
> > a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I
> > > would
> > > > >>> much
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the
> > whole
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay
> > > Schepler
> > > > <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on
> the
> > ML
> > > > >>> over
> > > > >>> > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> years and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed
> that
> > > > would
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm
> still
> > -1
> > > > on
> > > > >>> it.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC
> should
> > > > decide
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this
> exciting
> > > > topic.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential
> > addition
> > > > to
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>]

Thanks everyone for the opinions. And thanks Robert for the summary.

I'll start a voting thread.

Best,

Xintong



On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 3:33 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks a lot Kyle!
>
> What do you think of concluding this discussion and starting a VOTE about:
> 1. Setting up a PMC controlled Slack instance for the Flink community
> 2. Updating the Flink website about the various communication channels
> 3. Setting up an Archive for our Slack instance
> 4. Revisiting this initiative by the end of 2022.
>
> Xintong, do you want to start the VOTE on dev@?
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:41 PM Austin Cawley-Edwards <
> austin.cawley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Nice, cool to hear Kyle! How do you all approach moderation? Is there
> > anything specific you feel like you've "gotten right"/ other tips?
> >
> > (as a side note, I also love slack).
> >
> > Austin
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 2:27 PM Kyle Bendickson <ky...@tabular.io> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as
> > > well, that I am admittedly proud of.
> > >
> > > We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we
> > do
> > > get some noise now and again.
> > >
> > > Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and
> things
> > as
> > > one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg.
> > >
> > > So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough.
> > >
> > > Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability
> to
> > > attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not
> receive
> > as
> > > quickly.
> > >
> > > A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves
> as
> > > “prominent” enough but will speak up on slack.
> > >
> > > So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me).
> > >
> > > Feel free to reach out if you have any questions!
> > >
> > > - Kyle
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards <
> > > austin.cawley@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt
> > > community[1],
> > > > which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack
> in a
> > > > large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their
> Slack
> > > has
> > > > become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community
> > > space —
> > > > given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face
> similar
> > > > challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial
> > > > setup/guidelines.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Austin
> > > >
> > > > [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
> > > > > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion
> > forum
> > > > (I
> > > > > like the idea of using GH discussions)
> > > > >
> > > > > Besides, we still need to investigate how
> > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is the code used by airflow:
> > https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive
> > > .
> > > > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to
> > > entry
> > > > >> as Jingsong mentioned.
> > > > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how
> > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
> > > > >> complementary.
> > > > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But
> > what
> > > > we
> > > > >> are seeking today
> > > > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc
> > > questions
> > > > >> and interactions.
> > > > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing
> > > list
> > > > >> but can't solve the problems
> > > > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and
> thoughtful
> > > > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for
> > > Flink
> > > > >> and keep this thread focused
> > > > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for
> example
> > > > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful
> > > > >>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub
> > Discussion
> > > as
> > > > >> their forum.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best,
> > > > >> Jark
> > > > >>
> > > > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
> > > > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <
> martijn@ververica.com
> > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide
> > the
> > > > best
> > > > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
> > > > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on
> how
> > > to
> > > > >>> use
> > > > >>> Slack.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Best regards,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Martijn
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> > Hi all,
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain.
> > > > However,
> > > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product
> > could
> > > be
> > > > >>> > leveraged easily.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the
> ASF
> > > > slack
> > > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up
> our
> > > own
> > > > >>> slack
> > > > >>> > workspace.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Best
> > > > >>> > Yun Tang
> > > > >>> > ------------------------------
> > > > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> > > > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> > > > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
> workspace
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Hi all,
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the
> > Apache
> > > > >>> Druid
> > > > >>> > community. [1]
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for
> > new
> > > > >>> users
> > > > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid
> > Slack
> > > > >>> channel.
> > > > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
> > > > >>> workspace
> > > > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with
> spammers.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html),
> > new
> > > > >>> > community
> > > > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests.
> > > > Unfortunately,
> > > > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new
> > > > members,
> > > > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone
> with
> > > > full
> > > > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new
> members.
> > > > This
> > > > >>> lack
> > > > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > There is a workaround in place (
> > > > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users
> > can
> > > > >>> send an
> > > > >>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to
> the
> > > > Slack
> > > > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a
> barrier
> > to
> > > > >>> entry,
> > > > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates
> potential
> > > > >>> privacy
> > > > >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using
> > > Druid
> > > > >>> nor
> > > > >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > [1]
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Best,
> > > > >>> > Jingsong
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <
> > > tonysong820@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs
> none
> > > and
> > > > >>> then
> > > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is
> there
> > > > >>> anything
> > > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the
> > > implementation?
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative
> is
> > > more
> > > > >>> about
> > > > >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making
> > > information
> > > > >>> > easier
> > > > >>> > > to find.
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> > > > knaufk@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some
> > > people
> > > > >>> have
> > > > >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a
> > > mailing
> > > > >>> list.
> > > > >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages,
> sign
> > up
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > search
> > > > >>> > >> is easier.
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs
> > none
> > > > and
> > > > >>> then
> > > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is
> there
> > > > >>> anything
> > > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the
> > > implementation?
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> > > > >>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and
> "Getting
> > > > Help"
> > > > >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and
> > Slack,
> > > > >>> and on
> > > > >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm
> > with
> > > > >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more
> > channels
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > keeping
> > > > >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles,
> > > adding
> > > > >>> bots,
> > > > >>> > etc.
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication
> > > efficiency
> > > > >>> when
> > > > >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such
> > improvement
> > > > >>> would
> > > > >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
> > > > >>> perspective,
> > > > >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative
> to
> > > > >>> Slack. I
> > > > >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information
> > organized
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > easy to
> > > > >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance
> > > > overhead.
> > > > >>> I'm
> > > > >>> > not
> > > > >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is
> that
> > > > they
> > > > >>> are
> > > > >>> > not
> > > > >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> > > > >>> knaufk@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty
> much
> > > with
> > > > >>> Timo
> > > > >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user
> > > > >>> community, and
> > > > >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion,
> etc. I
> > > > >>> > definitely see
> > > > >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if
> > users
> > > > are
> > > > >>> > >>>> intimidated.
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka
> > > > Slack.
> > > > >>> This
> > > > >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and
> thoughtful
> > > > >>> > discussion
> > > > >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum,
> where
> > > it
> > > > is
> > > > >>> > easier
> > > > >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes
> > > more
> > > > >>> sense
> > > > >>> > to
> > > > >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and
> > > > vibrant
> > > > >>> > than a
> > > > >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse
> would
> > > have
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably
> > > > self-host
> > > > >>> it
> > > > >>> > on an
> > > > >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a
> > > > >>> dedicated
> > > > >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we
> > > could
> > > > >>> have
> > > > >>> > more
> > > > >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> > > > >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could
> > > > generally
> > > > >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we
> > go
> > > > for
> > > > >>> > Slack,
> > > > >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we
> > do
> > > > >>> this, we
> > > > >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack
> > > > itself.
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> Konstantin
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> > > > >>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue.
> The
> > > > Flink
> > > > >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be
> > > useful
> > > > >>> for
> > > > >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The
> > > DingTalk
> > > > >>> > channel of
> > > > >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to
> see.
> > > It
> > > > >>> could
> > > > >>> > also
> > > > >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering
> frequently
> > > > asked
> > > > >>> > questions.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to
> > > design
> > > > >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
> > > > >>> definitely
> > > > >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that
> users
> > > > might
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>> > want
> > > > >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and
> > get
> > > > >>> their
> > > > >>> > mailbox
> > > > >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a
> > > company
> > > > >>> > setting it
> > > > >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for
> > > > mailing
> > > > >>> > lists and
> > > > >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We
> should
> > > find
> > > > >>> an
> > > > >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the
> right
> > > > >>> tool. It
> > > > >>> > might
> > > > >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit?
> The
> > > > latter
> > > > >>> > would
> > > > >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine.
> Discourse
> > > is
> > > > >>> > actually
> > > > >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Regards,
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Timo
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for
> > sharing
> > > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
> > > > >>> discussions
> > > > >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the
> > community
> > > > can
> > > > >>> > reach out
> > > > >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we
> will
> > > > need a
> > > > >>> > paid
> > > > >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy
> enough
> > > > >>> (took me
> > > > >>> > about
> > > > >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down
> this
> > > > route.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> David
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > > >>> rmetzger@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink
> > > > >>> website for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no
> time-expiration,
> > > but
> > > > >>> they
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (
> > > > https://s.apache.org)
> > > > >>> > that
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
> > > > >>> solution,
> > > > >>> > but it'll
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> work.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> (1)
> > > > >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
> > > > >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > >>> ASF
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>
> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF
> > instance
> > > of
> > > > >>> > Slack,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> you can
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're
> > invited
> > > > by a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
> > > > >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks
> for
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance
> > instead
> > > > of
> > > > >>> > using
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are
> retained
> > > > >>> forever,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack
> > > instance,
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> could
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some
> more
> > > > effort
> > > > >>> > into
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that
> Slack
> > > for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developer
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and
> > flink-pmc
> > > > >>> chat.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the
> > > > "Community"
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are
> the
> > > > >>> "ground
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate
> faster
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't
> > > > respond
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be
> nice
> > to
> > > > >>> find
> > > > >>> > some
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple
> > > > indexing
> > > > >>> > tool.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because
> of
> > > > some
> > > > >>> bad
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where
> most
> > > of
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few
> > > weeks
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find that
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing,
> but
> > I
> > > > >>> would
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if
> > > really
> > > > >>> all
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> important
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists,
> and
> > > > that
> > > > >>> we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> get the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better
> > experience
> > > > for
> > > > >>> > users
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns
> (DMs
> > to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about
> using
> > > > >>> Slack for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> dev
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected
> > > back
> > > > >>> to the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
> > > > >>> specifies
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what people
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers
> > > /committers,
> > > > I
> > > > >>> > think
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> that also
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd
> > > understand
> > > > a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the
> > cod
> > > of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the
> > major
> > > > >>> concern
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions
> > from
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
> > > > >>> historical
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution
> for
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like
> Zapier
> > > [1],
> > > > >>> but
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
> > > > >>> arguments.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication
> > > more
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question
> > > askers
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice /
> > > video
> > > > >>> > calls,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is
> needed,
> > > as
> > > > >>> David
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
> > > > >>> attentions on
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can
> > probably
> > > > put
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> into the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first
> > search
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the
> > Flink
> > > > >>> China
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members
> > (might
> > > be
> > > > >>> less,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily.
> > > What
> > > > >>> I'm
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> really
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions
> > between
> > > > >>> users &
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users than
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each
> > > other,
> > > > >>> > sharing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
> > > > >>> documentations
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get
> > pinged,
> > > > if
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are
> way
> > > > more
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
> > > > >>> improvement of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
> > > > >>> repeatedly
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to
> the
> > > > >>> benefit
> > > > >>> > of a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see
> if
> > > we
> > > > >>> can
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
> > > > >>> attention
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> from the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder,
> > Piotr
> > > &
> > > > >>> David.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I think
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual
> > > > exclusive.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have
> set
> > > up
> > > > >>> their
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache
> Druid
> > > [2],
> > > > >>> etc.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
> > > > >>> communicate
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more
> effective.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about
> > > whether
> > > > >>> there
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in
> > the
> > > > >>> slack,
> > > > >>> > to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to
> > the
> > > > >>> mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we
> > > need
> > > > to
> > > > >>> > do).
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow,
> and
> > > as
> > > > a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but
> > want
> > > > to
> > > > >>> do
> > > > >>> > it
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> on a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and
> > > > shared.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on
> > > stack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
> > > > >>> necessary
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has
> the
> > > > >>> > collective
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> energy
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack
> > > overflow
> > > > >>> would
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for
> > users
> > > > to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> request help
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support
> on
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> existing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to
> burnout.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but
> > very
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to
> > figure
> > > > out
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the
> requirements
> > > are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> > > > >>> > circumstances,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> something
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or
> > stack
> > > > >>> > overflow.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those
> > mentioned
> > > > in
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> previous
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits
> of
> > > > >>> having a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact
> > > that
> > > > >>> this
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack
> > > channel.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd
> > imagine
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> > for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
> > > > >>> channel, a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today,
> > > which
> > > > >>> leaves
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no public
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained
> > by
> > > > the
> > > > >>> > Flink
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I
> think
> > > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the
> emails
> > > are
> > > > >>> good
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> starting
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it
> > goes.
> > > > In
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> worst
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where
> we
> > > are
> > > > >>> right
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> now.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser
> <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside
> (the
> > > > >>> results
> > > > >>> > are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link
> directly
> > > to
> > > > >>> Slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> content
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open
> source
> > > > space
> > > > >>> has
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's
> > > invaluable
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like
> Apache
> > > > >>> Airflow
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
> > > > >>> community.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start
> > > DMing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR
> > merged.
> > > > >>> That can
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need
> > to
> > > > >>> > establish
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for
> > the
> > > > >>> job. IMO
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it works
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between
> > developers,
> > > > but
> > > > >>> > it's
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it
> > works
> > > > >>> fine, as
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> long as
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
> > > > >>> JIRA/mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely
> > > > difficult
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering
> the
> > > > same
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to
> > > > provide a
> > > > >>> > link
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
> > > > >>> space/channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for
> > such
> > > > >>> > channels
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on,
> > for
> > > > >>> example,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers
> > > (not
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make
> > it
> > > > fit
> > > > >>> our
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use case
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong820@gmail.com
> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache
> > > Flink
> > > > >>> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this
> > is
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] &
> > [2],
> > > > >>> which
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are
> > > asking
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4].
> > Besides,
> > > I
> > > > >>> also
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
> > > > >>> alternative
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is
> > > quite
> > > > >>> open
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to having
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been
> > worked
> > > > >>> well for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> many
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this
> > discussion
> > > > >>> again:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have
> > > change
> > > > >>> > during
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the past
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including
> > > committers
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > PMC
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> members,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
> > > > >>> timezones.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> That also
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
> > > > >>> previous
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
> > > > >>> workspace,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
> > > > >>> workspace.
> > > > >>> > And
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> instead
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing
> to
> > > > add a
> > > > >>> > Slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from
> > your
> > > > >>> previous
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack
> Workspace.
> > > If
> > > > I
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this
> > service
> > > > >>> into
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official
> > ASF
> > > > >>> > service.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do
> so.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the
> mailing
> > > > lists,
> > > > >>> > JIRA
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public,
> whereas
> > > the
> > > > >>> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to
> be
> > a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I
> > > would
> > > > >>> much
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the
> > whole
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay
> > > Schepler
> > > > <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on
> the
> > ML
> > > > >>> over
> > > > >>> > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> years and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed
> that
> > > > would
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm
> still
> > -1
> > > > on
> > > > >>> it.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC
> should
> > > > decide
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this
> exciting
> > > > topic.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential
> > addition
> > > > to
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and
> > > they
> > > > >>> are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> surprised
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they
> > would
> > > > >>> love to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new
> > open-source
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communities
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base
> > camp.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming
> > and
> > > > >>> asking
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place
> > for
> > > > Q&A
> > > > >>> but
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> also a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the
> > > > >>> community
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> have more
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> social
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations,
> > > > >>> articles,
> > > > >>> > and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news
> > > channel
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink
> > > slack,
> > > > >>> and I
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> can help
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> set
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong
> Song
> > <
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on
> > creating
> > > an
> > > > >>> > Apache
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Flink
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do
> > real
> > > > time
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique
> > for
> > > > real
> > > > >>> > time
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
> > > > >>> communication,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> especially
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> for
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more
> and
> > > > more
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community,
> it
> > > > would
> > > > >>> be
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> good to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time
> > communications.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
> > > > >>> maintained
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> by the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people.
> Messages
> > > are
> > > > >>> less
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> likely
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video
> calls,
> > > > file
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g.,
> flink-ml,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific
> topics,
> > > > etc.).
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be
> an
> > > > >>> extension
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists.
> > Community
> > > > >>> members
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> still
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the
> > > > mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and
> > > > important
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> opinions
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists.
> > After
> > > > all,
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> according to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing
> > list,
> > > > it
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only
> ask
> > > ad
> > > > >>> hoc
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions on
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that
> > > grow
> > > > >>> long)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should be
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on
> > > slack
> > > > >>> for a
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> real time
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being
> > > pinged
> > > > >>> need
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to be
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where
> > all
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make
> > communication
> > > > >>> easier
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only when
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> all
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear
> > > that
> > > > >>> people
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should not
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is
> > often
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and
> > to
> > > > >>> search
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> among them.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
> > > > >>> problem[1]. As
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a first
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting
> > > > things
> > > > >>> back
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is
> properly
> > > > >>> reflected
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the
> > > archivability
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular
> open-source
> > > > >>> projects
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace:
> > > AirFlow
> > > > >>> [2],
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache
> > > > Flink,
> > > > >>> we
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> would need
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> an
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members.
> > But
> > > > >>> before
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> we get to
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1]
> > > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2]
> https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3]
> > > > >>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>> --
> > > > >>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > > > >>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
> > > > >>> > >>>>
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> --
> > > > >>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > > > >>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>]

Thanks a lot Kyle!

What do you think of concluding this discussion and starting a VOTE about:
1. Setting up a PMC controlled Slack instance for the Flink community
2. Updating the Flink website about the various communication channels
3. Setting up an Archive for our Slack instance
4. Revisiting this initiative by the end of 2022.

Xintong, do you want to start the VOTE on dev@?

On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:41 PM Austin Cawley-Edwards <
austin.cawley@gmail.com> wrote:

> Nice, cool to hear Kyle! How do you all approach moderation? Is there
> anything specific you feel like you've "gotten right"/ other tips?
>
> (as a side note, I also love slack).
>
> Austin
>
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 2:27 PM Kyle Bendickson <ky...@tabular.io> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as
> > well, that I am admittedly proud of.
> >
> > We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we
> do
> > get some noise now and again.
> >
> > Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and things
> as
> > one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg.
> >
> > So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough.
> >
> > Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability to
> > attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not receive
> as
> > quickly.
> >
> > A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves as
> > “prominent” enough but will speak up on slack.
> >
> > So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me).
> >
> > Feel free to reach out if you have any questions!
> >
> > - Kyle
> >
> > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards <
> > austin.cawley@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt
> > community[1],
> > > which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a
> > > large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack
> > has
> > > become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community
> > space —
> > > given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar
> > > challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial
> > > setup/guidelines.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Austin
> > >
> > > [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
> > > > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion
> forum
> > > (I
> > > > like the idea of using GH discussions)
> > > >
> > > > Besides, we still need to investigate how
> > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is the code used by airflow:
> https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive
> > .
> > > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to
> > entry
> > > >> as Jingsong mentioned.
> > > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how
> > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
> > > >> complementary.
> > > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But
> what
> > > we
> > > >> are seeking today
> > > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc
> > questions
> > > >> and interactions.
> > > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing
> > list
> > > >> but can't solve the problems
> > > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
> > > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for
> > Flink
> > > >> and keep this thread focused
> > > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example
> > > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful
> > > >>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub
> Discussion
> > as
> > > >> their forum.
> > > >>
> > > >> Best,
> > > >> Jark
> > > >>
> > > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
> > > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <martijn@ververica.com
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hi,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide
> the
> > > best
> > > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
> > > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how
> > to
> > > >>> use
> > > >>> Slack.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Best regards,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Martijn
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > Hi all,
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain.
> > > However,
> > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product
> could
> > be
> > > >>> > leveraged easily.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF
> > > slack
> > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our
> > own
> > > >>> slack
> > > >>> > workspace.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Best
> > > >>> > Yun Tang
> > > >>> > ------------------------------
> > > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> > > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> > > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Hi all,
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the
> Apache
> > > >>> Druid
> > > >>> > community. [1]
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for
> new
> > > >>> users
> > > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid
> Slack
> > > >>> channel.
> > > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
> > > >>> workspace
> > > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html),
> new
> > > >>> > community
> > > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests.
> > > Unfortunately,
> > > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new
> > > members,
> > > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with
> > > full
> > > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members.
> > > This
> > > >>> lack
> > > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > There is a workaround in place (
> > > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users
> can
> > > >>> send an
> > > >>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the
> > > Slack
> > > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier
> to
> > > >>> entry,
> > > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential
> > > >>> privacy
> > > >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using
> > Druid
> > > >>> nor
> > > >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > [1]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Best,
> > > >>> > Jingsong
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <
> > tonysong820@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > >>> > wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none
> > and
> > > >>> then
> > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
> > > >>> anything
> > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the
> > implementation?
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is
> > more
> > > >>> about
> > > >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making
> > information
> > > >>> > easier
> > > >>> > > to find.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Thank you~
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Xintong Song
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> > > knaufk@apache.org>
> > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some
> > people
> > > >>> have
> > > >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a
> > mailing
> > > >>> list.
> > > >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign
> up
> > > and
> > > >>> > search
> > > >>> > >> is easier.
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs
> none
> > > and
> > > >>> then
> > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
> > > >>> anything
> > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the
> > implementation?
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> > > >>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting
> > > Help"
> > > >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and
> Slack,
> > > >>> and on
> > > >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm
> with
> > > >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more
> channels
> > > and
> > > >>> > keeping
> > > >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles,
> > adding
> > > >>> bots,
> > > >>> > etc.
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication
> > efficiency
> > > >>> when
> > > >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such
> improvement
> > > >>> would
> > > >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
> > > >>> perspective,
> > > >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to
> > > >>> Slack. I
> > > >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information
> organized
> > > and
> > > >>> > easy to
> > > >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance
> > > overhead.
> > > >>> I'm
> > > >>> > not
> > > >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that
> > > they
> > > >>> are
> > > >>> > not
> > > >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>> Thank you~
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>> Xintong Song
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> > > >>> knaufk@apache.org>
> > > >>> > >>> wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much
> > with
> > > >>> Timo
> > > >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user
> > > >>> community, and
> > > >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
> > > >>> > definitely see
> > > >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if
> users
> > > are
> > > >>> > >>>> intimidated.
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka
> > > Slack.
> > > >>> This
> > > >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
> > > >>> > discussion
> > > >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where
> > it
> > > is
> > > >>> > easier
> > > >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes
> > more
> > > >>> sense
> > > >>> > to
> > > >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and
> > > vibrant
> > > >>> > than a
> > > >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would
> > have
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably
> > > self-host
> > > >>> it
> > > >>> > on an
> > > >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a
> > > >>> dedicated
> > > >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we
> > could
> > > >>> have
> > > >>> > more
> > > >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> > > >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could
> > > generally
> > > >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we
> go
> > > for
> > > >>> > Slack,
> > > >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we
> do
> > > >>> this, we
> > > >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack
> > > itself.
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>> Cheers,
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>> Konstantin
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> > > >>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The
> > > Flink
> > > >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be
> > useful
> > > >>> for
> > > >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The
> > DingTalk
> > > >>> > channel of
> > > >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see.
> > It
> > > >>> could
> > > >>> > also
> > > >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently
> > > asked
> > > >>> > questions.
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to
> > design
> > > >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
> > > >>> definitely
> > > >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users
> > > might
> > > >>> not
> > > >>> > want
> > > >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and
> get
> > > >>> their
> > > >>> > mailbox
> > > >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a
> > company
> > > >>> > setting it
> > > >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for
> > > mailing
> > > >>> > lists and
> > > >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should
> > find
> > > >>> an
> > > >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right
> > > >>> tool. It
> > > >>> > might
> > > >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The
> > > latter
> > > >>> > would
> > > >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse
> > is
> > > >>> > actually
> > > >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> Regards,
> > > >>> > >>>>> Timo
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for
> sharing
> > > the
> > > >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
> > > >>> discussions
> > > >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the
> community
> > > can
> > > >>> > reach out
> > > >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will
> > > need a
> > > >>> > paid
> > > >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough
> > > >>> (took me
> > > >>> > about
> > > >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this
> > > route.
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> David
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
> > > >>> rmetzger@apache.org>
> > > >>> > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink
> > > >>> website for
> > > >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> > > >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration,
> > but
> > > >>> they
> > > >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> > > >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (
> > > https://s.apache.org)
> > > >>> > that
> > > >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
> > > >>> solution,
> > > >>> > but it'll
> > > >>> > >>>>>> work.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>> (1)
> > > >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
> > > >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience
> to
> > > the
> > > >>> ASF
> > > >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> > > >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF
> instance
> > of
> > > >>> > Slack,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> you can
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're
> invited
> > > by a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
> > > >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for
> > the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance
> instead
> > > of
> > > >>> > using
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
> > > >>> forever,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack
> > instance,
> > > >>> that
> > > >>> > we
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> could
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more
> > > effort
> > > >>> > into
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack
> > for
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developer
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and
> flink-pmc
> > > >>> chat.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the
> > > "Community"
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
> > > >>> "ground
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't
> > > respond
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice
> to
> > > >>> find
> > > >>> > some
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple
> > > indexing
> > > >>> > tool.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of
> > > some
> > > >>> bad
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most
> > of
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few
> > weeks
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find that
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but
> I
> > > >>> would
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if
> > really
> > > >>> all
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> important
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and
> > > that
> > > >>> we
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> get the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better
> experience
> > > for
> > > >>> > users
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs
> to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using
> > > >>> Slack for
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> dev
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected
> > back
> > > >>> to the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
> > > >>> specifies
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what people
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers
> > /committers,
> > > I
> > > >>> > think
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> that also
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd
> > understand
> > > a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the
> cod
> > of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the
> major
> > > >>> concern
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions
> from
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
> > > >>> historical
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for
> > the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier
> > [1],
> > > >>> but
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
> > > >>> arguments.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication
> > more
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question
> > askers
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice /
> > video
> > > >>> > calls,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed,
> > as
> > > >>> David
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
> > > >>> attentions on
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can
> probably
> > > put
> > > >>> that
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> into the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first
> search
> > > and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the
> Flink
> > > >>> China
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members
> (might
> > be
> > > >>> less,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily.
> > What
> > > >>> I'm
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> really
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions
> between
> > > >>> users &
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users than
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each
> > other,
> > > >>> > sharing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
> > > >>> documentations
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get
> pinged,
> > > if
> > > >>> not
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way
> > > more
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
> > > >>> improvement of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
> > > >>> repeatedly
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the
> > > >>> benefit
> > > >>> > of a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if
> > we
> > > >>> can
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
> > > >>> attention
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> from the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder,
> Piotr
> > &
> > > >>> David.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I think
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual
> > > exclusive.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set
> > up
> > > >>> their
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid
> > [2],
> > > >>> etc.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
> > > >>> communicate
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about
> > whether
> > > >>> there
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in
> the
> > > >>> slack,
> > > >>> > to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to
> the
> > > >>> mailing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we
> > need
> > > to
> > > >>> > do).
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and
> > as
> > > a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but
> want
> > > to
> > > >>> do
> > > >>> > it
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> on a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and
> > > shared.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on
> > stack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
> > > >>> necessary
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
> > > >>> > collective
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> energy
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack
> > overflow
> > > >>> would
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for
> users
> > > to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> request help
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on
> > the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> existing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but
> very
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to
> figure
> > > out
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements
> > are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> > > >>> > circumstances,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> something
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or
> stack
> > > >>> > overflow.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those
> mentioned
> > > in
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> previous
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
> > > >>> having a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact
> > that
> > > >>> this
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack
> > channel.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd
> imagine
> > > >>> that
> > > >>> > for
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
> > > >>> channel, a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today,
> > which
> > > >>> leaves
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no public
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained
> by
> > > the
> > > >>> > Flink
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think
> > the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails
> > are
> > > >>> good
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> starting
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it
> goes.
> > > In
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> worst
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we
> > are
> > > >>> right
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> now.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the
> > > >>> results
> > > >>> > are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly
> > to
> > > >>> Slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> content
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source
> > > space
> > > >>> has
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's
> > invaluable
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
> > > >>> Airflow
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
> > > >>> community.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start
> > DMing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR
> merged.
> > > >>> That can
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need
> to
> > > >>> > establish
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for
> the
> > > >>> job. IMO
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it works
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between
> developers,
> > > but
> > > >>> > it's
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it
> works
> > > >>> fine, as
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> long as
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
> > > >>> JIRA/mailing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely
> > > difficult
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the
> > > same
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to
> > > provide a
> > > >>> > link
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
> > > >>> space/channel
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for
> such
> > > >>> > channels
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on,
> for
> > > >>> example,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers
> > (not
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make
> it
> > > fit
> > > >>> our
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use case
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache
> > Flink
> > > >>> slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this
> is
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] &
> [2],
> > > >>> which
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are
> > asking
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4].
> Besides,
> > I
> > > >>> also
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
> > > >>> alternative
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is
> > quite
> > > >>> open
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to having
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been
> worked
> > > >>> well for
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> many
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this
> discussion
> > > >>> again:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have
> > change
> > > >>> > during
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the past
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including
> > committers
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > PMC
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> members,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
> > > >>> timezones.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> That also
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
> > > >>> previous
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
> > > >>> workspace,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
> > > >>> workspace.
> > > >>> > And
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> instead
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to
> > > add a
> > > >>> > Slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from
> your
> > > >>> previous
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace.
> > If
> > > I
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this
> service
> > > >>> into
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official
> ASF
> > > >>> > service.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing
> > > lists,
> > > >>> > JIRA
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas
> > the
> > > >>> slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> channel
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be
> a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I
> > would
> > > >>> much
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the
> whole
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay
> > Schepler
> > > <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the
> ML
> > > >>> over
> > > >>> > the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> years and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that
> > > would
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still
> -1
> > > on
> > > >>> it.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should
> > > decide
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting
> > > topic.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential
> addition
> > > to
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and
> > they
> > > >>> are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> surprised
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they
> would
> > > >>> love to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new
> open-source
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communities
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base
> camp.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming
> and
> > > >>> asking
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people for
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place
> for
> > > Q&A
> > > >>> but
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> also a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the
> > > >>> community
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> have more
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> social
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations,
> > > >>> articles,
> > > >>> > and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news
> > channel
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink
> > slack,
> > > >>> and I
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> can help
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> set
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song
> <
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on
> creating
> > an
> > > >>> > Apache
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Flink
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do
> real
> > > time
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique
> for
> > > real
> > > >>> > time
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
> > > >>> communication,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> especially
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> for
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and
> > > more
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it
> > > would
> > > >>> be
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> good to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time
> communications.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
> > > >>> maintained
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> by the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages
> > are
> > > >>> less
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> likely
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls,
> > > file
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics,
> > > etc.).
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
> > > >>> extension
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists.
> Community
> > > >>> members
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> still
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the
> > > mailing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and
> > > important
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> opinions
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists.
> After
> > > all,
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> according to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing
> list,
> > > it
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask
> > ad
> > > >>> hoc
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions on
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that
> > grow
> > > >>> long)
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should be
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on
> > slack
> > > >>> for a
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> real time
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being
> > pinged
> > > >>> need
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to be
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where
> all
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make
> communication
> > > >>> easier
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only when
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> all
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear
> > that
> > > >>> people
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should not
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is
> often
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and
> to
> > > >>> search
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> among them.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
> > > >>> problem[1]. As
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a first
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting
> > > things
> > > >>> back
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
> > > >>> reflected
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the
> > archivability
> > > >>> and
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
> > > >>> projects
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace:
> > AirFlow
> > > >>> [2],
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache
> > > Flink,
> > > >>> we
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> would need
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> an
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members.
> But
> > > >>> before
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> we get to
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1]
> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3]
> > > >>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>>
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>> --
> > > >>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > > >>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
> > > >>> > >>>>
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> --
> > > >>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > > >>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Austin Cawley-Edwards <au...@gmail.com>]

Nice, cool to hear Kyle! How do you all approach moderation? Is there
anything specific you feel like you've "gotten right"/ other tips?

(as a side note, I also love slack).

Austin


On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 2:27 PM Kyle Bendickson <ky...@tabular.io> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as
> well, that I am admittedly proud of.
>
> We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we do
> get some noise now and again.
>
> Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and things as
> one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg.
>
> So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough.
>
> Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability to
> attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not receive as
> quickly.
>
> A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves as
> “prominent” enough but will speak up on slack.
>
> So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me).
>
> Feel free to reach out if you have any questions!
>
> - Kyle
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards <
> austin.cawley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt
> community[1],
> > which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a
> > large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack
> has
> > become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community
> space —
> > given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar
> > challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial
> > setup/guidelines.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Austin
> >
> > [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r
> >
> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
> > > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum
> > (I
> > > like the idea of using GH discussions)
> > >
> > > Besides, we still need to investigate how
> > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> > >
> > >
> > > This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive
> .
> > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to
> entry
> > >> as Jingsong mentioned.
> > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how
> > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> > >>
> > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
> > >> complementary.
> > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what
> > we
> > >> are seeking today
> > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc
> questions
> > >> and interactions.
> > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing
> list
> > >> but can't solve the problems
> > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
> > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
> > >>
> > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for
> Flink
> > >> and keep this thread focused
> > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example
> > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful
> > >>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion
> as
> > >> their forum.
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Jark
> > >>
> > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
> > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the
> > best
> > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
> > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how
> to
> > >>> use
> > >>> Slack.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>>
> > >>> Martijn
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > Hi all,
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain.
> > However,
> > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could
> be
> > >>> > leveraged easily.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF
> > slack
> > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our
> own
> > >>> slack
> > >>> > workspace.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Best
> > >>> > Yun Tang
> > >>> > ------------------------------
> > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > >>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Hi all,
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache
> > >>> Druid
> > >>> > community. [1]
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new
> > >>> users
> > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack
> > >>> channel.
> > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
> > >>> workspace
> > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
> > >>> > community
> > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests.
> > Unfortunately,
> > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new
> > members,
> > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with
> > full
> > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members.
> > This
> > >>> lack
> > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > There is a workaround in place (
> > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can
> > >>> send an
> > >>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the
> > Slack
> > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to
> > >>> entry,
> > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential
> > >>> privacy
> > >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using
> Druid
> > >>> nor
> > >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > [1]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Best,
> > >>> > Jingsong
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <
> tonysong820@gmail.com
> > >
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none
> and
> > >>> then
> > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
> > >>> anything
> > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the
> implementation?
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is
> more
> > >>> about
> > >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making
> information
> > >>> > easier
> > >>> > > to find.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Thank you~
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Xintong Song
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> > knaufk@apache.org>
> > >>> > > wrote:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some
> people
> > >>> have
> > >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a
> mailing
> > >>> list.
> > >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up
> > and
> > >>> > search
> > >>> > >> is easier.
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none
> > and
> > >>> then
> > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
> > >>> anything
> > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the
> implementation?
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> > >>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting
> > Help"
> > >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack,
> > >>> and on
> > >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
> > >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels
> > and
> > >>> > keeping
> > >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles,
> adding
> > >>> bots,
> > >>> > etc.
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication
> efficiency
> > >>> when
> > >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement
> > >>> would
> > >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
> > >>> perspective,
> > >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to
> > >>> Slack. I
> > >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized
> > and
> > >>> > easy to
> > >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance
> > overhead.
> > >>> I'm
> > >>> > not
> > >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that
> > they
> > >>> are
> > >>> > not
> > >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> Thank you~
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> Xintong Song
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> > >>> knaufk@apache.org>
> > >>> > >>> wrote:
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much
> with
> > >>> Timo
> > >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user
> > >>> community, and
> > >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
> > >>> > definitely see
> > >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users
> > are
> > >>> > >>>> intimidated.
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka
> > Slack.
> > >>> This
> > >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
> > >>> > discussion
> > >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where
> it
> > is
> > >>> > easier
> > >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes
> more
> > >>> sense
> > >>> > to
> > >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and
> > vibrant
> > >>> > than a
> > >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would
> have
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably
> > self-host
> > >>> it
> > >>> > on an
> > >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a
> > >>> dedicated
> > >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we
> could
> > >>> have
> > >>> > more
> > >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> > >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could
> > generally
> > >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go
> > for
> > >>> > Slack,
> > >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do
> > >>> this, we
> > >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack
> > itself.
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>> Konstantin
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> > >>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The
> > Flink
> > >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be
> useful
> > >>> for
> > >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The
> DingTalk
> > >>> > channel of
> > >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see.
> It
> > >>> could
> > >>> > also
> > >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently
> > asked
> > >>> > questions.
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to
> design
> > >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
> > >>> definitely
> > >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users
> > might
> > >>> not
> > >>> > want
> > >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get
> > >>> their
> > >>> > mailbox
> > >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a
> company
> > >>> > setting it
> > >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for
> > mailing
> > >>> > lists and
> > >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should
> find
> > >>> an
> > >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right
> > >>> tool. It
> > >>> > might
> > >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The
> > latter
> > >>> > would
> > >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse
> is
> > >>> > actually
> > >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> Regards,
> > >>> > >>>>> Timo
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing
> > the
> > >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
> > >>> discussions
> > >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community
> > can
> > >>> > reach out
> > >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will
> > need a
> > >>> > paid
> > >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough
> > >>> (took me
> > >>> > about
> > >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this
> > route.
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> David
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
> > >>> rmetzger@apache.org>
> > >>> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink
> > >>> website for
> > >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> > >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration,
> but
> > >>> they
> > >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> > >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (
> > https://s.apache.org)
> > >>> > that
> > >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
> > >>> solution,
> > >>> > but it'll
> > >>> > >>>>>> work.
> > >>> > >>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>> (1)
> > >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> > >>> > >>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
> > >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to
> > the
> > >>> ASF
> > >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > >>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> > >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance
> of
> > >>> > Slack,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> you can
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited
> > by a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
> > >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for
> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead
> > of
> > >>> > using
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
> > >>> forever,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack
> instance,
> > >>> that
> > >>> > we
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> could
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more
> > effort
> > >>> > into
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack
> for
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> developer
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc
> > >>> chat.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the
> > "Community"
> > >>> and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
> > >>> "ground
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't
> > respond
> > >>> to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to
> > >>> find
> > >>> > some
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple
> > indexing
> > >>> > tool.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of
> > some
> > >>> bad
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most
> of
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few
> weeks
> > >>> to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> find that
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I
> > >>> would
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if
> really
> > >>> all
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> important
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and
> > that
> > >>> we
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> get the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience
> > for
> > >>> > users
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using
> > >>> Slack for
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> dev
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected
> back
> > >>> to the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
> > >>> specifies
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> what people
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers
> /committers,
> > I
> > >>> > think
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> that also
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd
> understand
> > a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod
> of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
> > >>> concern
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
> > >>> historical
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for
> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier
> [1],
> > >>> but
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
> > >>> arguments.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication
> more
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question
> askers
> > >>> and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice /
> video
> > >>> > calls,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed,
> as
> > >>> David
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
> > >>> attentions on
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably
> > put
> > >>> that
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> into the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search
> > and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink
> > >>> China
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> community.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might
> be
> > >>> less,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily.
> What
> > >>> I'm
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> really
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between
> > >>> users &
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> users than
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each
> other,
> > >>> > sharing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
> > >>> documentations
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged,
> > if
> > >>> not
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way
> > more
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
> > >>> improvement of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
> > >>> repeatedly
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the
> > >>> benefit
> > >>> > of a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if
> we
> > >>> can
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
> > >>> attention
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> from the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr
> &
> > >>> David.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> I think
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual
> > exclusive.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set
> up
> > >>> their
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid
> [2],
> > >>> etc.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
> > >>> communicate
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> back and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about
> whether
> > >>> there
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the
> > >>> slack,
> > >>> > to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
> > >>> mailing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> list and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we
> need
> > to
> > >>> > do).
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and
> as
> > a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want
> > to
> > >>> do
> > >>> > it
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> on a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and
> > shared.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on
> stack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
> > >>> necessary
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
> > >>> > collective
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> energy
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack
> overflow
> > >>> would
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users
> > to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> request help
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on
> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> existing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure
> > out
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements
> are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> > >>> > circumstances,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> something
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
> > >>> > overflow.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned
> > in
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> previous
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
> > >>> having a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact
> that
> > >>> this
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack
> channel.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine
> > >>> that
> > >>> > for
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> people
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
> > >>> channel, a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today,
> which
> > >>> leaves
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> no public
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by
> > the
> > >>> > Flink
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think
> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails
> are
> > >>> good
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> starting
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes.
> > In
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> worst
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we
> are
> > >>> right
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> now.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the
> > >>> results
> > >>> > are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly
> to
> > >>> Slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> content
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source
> > space
> > >>> has
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's
> invaluable
> > >>> to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
> > >>> Airflow
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
> > >>> community.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start
> DMing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged.
> > >>> That can
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
> > >>> > establish
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the
> > >>> job. IMO
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> it works
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers,
> > but
> > >>> > it's
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works
> > >>> fine, as
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> long as
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
> > >>> JIRA/mailing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely
> > difficult
> > >>> to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the
> > same
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to
> > provide a
> > >>> > link
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
> > >>> space/channel
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
> > >>> > channels
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
> > >>> example,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers
> (not
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it
> > fit
> > >>> our
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> use case
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache
> Flink
> > >>> slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2],
> > >>> which
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are
> asking
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides,
> I
> > >>> also
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> find a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
> > >>> alternative
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is
> quite
> > >>> open
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> to having
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked
> > >>> well for
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> many
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion
> > >>> again:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have
> change
> > >>> > during
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> the past
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including
> committers
> > >>> and
> > >>> > PMC
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> members,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
> > >>> timezones.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> That also
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
> > >>> previous
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
> > >>> workspace,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
> > >>> workspace.
> > >>> > And
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> instead
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to
> > add a
> > >>> > Slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
> > >>> previous
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace.
> If
> > I
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service
> > >>> into
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
> > >>> > service.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing
> > lists,
> > >>> > JIRA
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas
> the
> > >>> slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> channel
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I
> would
> > >>> much
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay
> Schepler
> > <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML
> > >>> over
> > >>> > the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> years and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that
> > would
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1
> > on
> > >>> it.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should
> > decide
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting
> > topic.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition
> > to
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and
> they
> > >>> are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> surprised
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would
> > >>> love to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> communities
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and
> > >>> asking
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> people for
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for
> > Q&A
> > >>> but
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> also a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the
> > >>> community
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> have more
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> social
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations,
> > >>> articles,
> > >>> > and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news
> channel
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink
> slack,
> > >>> and I
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> can help
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> set
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating
> an
> > >>> > Apache
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> Flink
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real
> > time
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for
> > real
> > >>> > time
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
> > >>> communication,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> especially
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> for
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and
> > more
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it
> > would
> > >>> be
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> good to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
> > >>> maintained
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> by the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages
> are
> > >>> less
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> likely
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls,
> > file
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics,
> > etc.).
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
> > >>> extension
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
> > >>> members
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> should
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> still
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the
> > mailing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and
> > important
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> opinions
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After
> > all,
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> according to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list,
> > it
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask
> ad
> > >>> hoc
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions on
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that
> grow
> > >>> long)
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> should be
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on
> slack
> > >>> for a
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> real time
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being
> pinged
> > >>> need
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> to be
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication
> > >>> easier
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> only when
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> all
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear
> that
> > >>> people
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> should not
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to
> > >>> search
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> among them.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
> > >>> problem[1]. As
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> a first
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting
> > things
> > >>> back
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
> > >>> reflected
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> back to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the
> archivability
> > >>> and
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
> > >>> projects
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace:
> AirFlow
> > >>> [2],
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache
> > Flink,
> > >>> we
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> would need
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> an
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
> > >>> before
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> we get to
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1]
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3]
> > >>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>>
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>> --
> > >>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > >>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
> > >>> > >>>>
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> --
> > >>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > >>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Kyle Bendickson <ky...@tabular.io>]

Hi all,

Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as
well, that I am admittedly proud of.

We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we do
get some noise now and again.

Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and things as
one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg.

So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough.

Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability to
attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not receive as
quickly.

A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves as
“prominent” enough but will speak up on slack.

So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me).

Feel free to reach out if you have any questions!

- Kyle

On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards <
austin.cawley@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt community[1],
> which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a
> large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack has
> become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community space —
> given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar
> challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial
> setup/guidelines.
>
> Cheers,
> Austin
>
> [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
> > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum
> (I
> > like the idea of using GH discussions)
> >
> > Besides, we still need to investigate how
> >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> >
> >
> > This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive.
> > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry
> >> as Jingsong mentioned.
> >> Besides, we still need to investigate how
> >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
> >>
> >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
> >> complementary.
> >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what
> we
> >> are seeking today
> >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions
> >> and interactions.
> >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list
> >> but can't solve the problems
> >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
> >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
> >>
> >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink
> >> and keep this thread focused
> >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example
> >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful
> >>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as
> >> their forum.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Jark
> >>
> >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
> >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the
> best
> >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
> >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to
> >>> use
> >>> Slack.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Martijn
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Hi all,
> >>> >
> >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain.
> However,
> >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
> >>> > leveraged easily.
> >>> >
> >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF
> slack
> >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own
> >>> slack
> >>> > workspace.
> >>> >
> >>> > Best
> >>> > Yun Tang
> >>> > ------------------------------
> >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi all,
> >>> >
> >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache
> >>> Druid
> >>> > community. [1]
> >>> >
> >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new
> >>> users
> >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack
> >>> channel.
> >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
> >>> workspace
> >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
> >>> >
> >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
> >>> > community
> >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests.
> Unfortunately,
> >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new
> members,
> >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with
> full
> >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members.
> This
> >>> lack
> >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
> >>> >
> >>> > > There is a workaround in place (
> >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can
> >>> send an
> >>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the
> Slack
> >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to
> >>> entry,
> >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential
> >>> privacy
> >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid
> >>> nor
> >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
> >>> >
> >>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
> >>> >
> >>> > Best,
> >>> > Jingsong
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <tonysong820@gmail.com
> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
> >>> then
> >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
> >>> anything
> >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more
> >>> about
> >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
> >>> > easier
> >>> > > to find.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Thank you~
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Xintong Song
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> knaufk@apache.org>
> >>> > > wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people
> >>> have
> >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing
> >>> list.
> >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up
> and
> >>> > search
> >>> > >> is easier.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none
> and
> >>> then
> >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
> >>> anything
> >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> >>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting
> Help"
> >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack,
> >>> and on
> >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
> >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels
> and
> >>> > keeping
> >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding
> >>> bots,
> >>> > etc.
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency
> >>> when
> >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement
> >>> would
> >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
> >>> perspective,
> >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to
> >>> Slack. I
> >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized
> and
> >>> > easy to
> >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance
> overhead.
> >>> I'm
> >>> > not
> >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that
> they
> >>> are
> >>> > not
> >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> Thank you~
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> Xintong Song
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <
> >>> knaufk@apache.org>
> >>> > >>> wrote:
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with
> >>> Timo
> >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user
> >>> community, and
> >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
> >>> > definitely see
> >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users
> are
> >>> > >>>> intimidated.
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka
> Slack.
> >>> This
> >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
> >>> > discussion
> >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it
> is
> >>> > easier
> >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more
> >>> sense
> >>> > to
> >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and
> vibrant
> >>> > than a
> >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have
> >>> the
> >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably
> self-host
> >>> it
> >>> > on an
> >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a
> >>> dedicated
> >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could
> >>> have
> >>> > more
> >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could
> generally
> >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go
> for
> >>> > Slack,
> >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do
> >>> this, we
> >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack
> itself.
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> Cheers,
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> Konstantin
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> >>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The
> Flink
> >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful
> >>> for
> >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
> >>> > channel of
> >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It
> >>> could
> >>> > also
> >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently
> asked
> >>> > questions.
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
> >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
> >>> definitely
> >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users
> might
> >>> not
> >>> > want
> >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get
> >>> their
> >>> > mailbox
> >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
> >>> > setting it
> >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for
> mailing
> >>> > lists and
> >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find
> >>> an
> >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right
> >>> tool. It
> >>> > might
> >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The
> latter
> >>> > would
> >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
> >>> > actually
> >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>> Regards,
> >>> > >>>>> Timo
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing
> the
> >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
> >>> discussions
> >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community
> can
> >>> > reach out
> >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will
> need a
> >>> > paid
> >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough
> >>> (took me
> >>> > about
> >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this
> route.
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>> David
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
> >>> rmetzger@apache.org>
> >>> > >>>>> wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink
> >>> website for
> >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but
> >>> they
> >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (
> https://s.apache.org)
> >>> > that
> >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
> >>> solution,
> >>> > but it'll
> >>> > >>>>>> work.
> >>> > >>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>> (1)
> >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> >>> > >>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
> >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> >>> > >>>>>> wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to
> the
> >>> ASF
> >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> >>> > >>>>>>>
> >>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> >>> > >>>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
> >>> > Slack,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> you can
> >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited
> by a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
> >>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
> >>> metrobert@gmail.com>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead
> of
> >>> > using
> >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
> >>> forever,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance,
> >>> that
> >>> > we
> >>> > >>>>>>>> could
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more
> effort
> >>> > into
> >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
> >>> > >>>>>>>> developer
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc
> >>> chat.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the
> "Community"
> >>> and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
> >>> "ground
> >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
> >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't
> respond
> >>> to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to
> >>> find
> >>> > some
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple
> indexing
> >>> > tool.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of
> some
> >>> bad
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of
> >>> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks
> >>> to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> find that
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I
> >>> would
> >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really
> >>> all
> >>> > >>>>>>>> important
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and
> that
> >>> we
> >>> > >>>>>>>> get the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience
> for
> >>> > users
> >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using
> >>> Slack for
> >>> > >>>>>>>> dev
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back
> >>> to the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
> >>> specifies
> >>> > >>>>>>>> what people
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers,
> I
> >>> > think
> >>> > >>>>>>>> that also
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand
> a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
> >>> concern
> >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
> >>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
> >>> historical
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1],
> >>> but
> >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
> >>> arguments.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
> >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers
> >>> and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
> >>> > calls,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as
> >>> David
> >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
> >>> attentions on
> >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably
> put
> >>> that
> >>> > >>>>>>>> into the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search
> and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink
> >>> China
> >>> > >>>>>>>> community.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be
> >>> less,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What
> >>> I'm
> >>> > >>>>>>>> really
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between
> >>> users &
> >>> > >>>>>>>> users than
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
> >>> > sharing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
> >>> documentations
> >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged,
> if
> >>> not
> >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way
> more
> >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
> >>> improvement of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
> >>> repeatedly
> >>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the
> >>> benefit
> >>> > of a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we
> >>> can
> >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
> >>> attention
> >>> > >>>>>>>> from the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr &
> >>> David.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> I think
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual
> exclusive.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up
> >>> their
> >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2],
> >>> etc.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
> >>> communicate
> >>> > >>>>>>>> back and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether
> >>> there
> >>> > >>>>>>>> are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the
> >>> slack,
> >>> > to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
> >>> mailing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> list and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need
> to
> >>> > do).
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as
> a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want
> to
> >>> do
> >>> > it
> >>> > >>>>>>>> on a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and
> shared.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
> >>> necessary
> >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
> >>> > collective
> >>> > >>>>>>>> energy
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow
> >>> would
> >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users
> to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> request help
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> existing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
> >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure
> out
> >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> >>> > circumstances,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> something
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
> >>> > overflow.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned
> in
> >>> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> previous
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
> >>> having a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that
> >>> this
> >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine
> >>> that
> >>> > for
> >>> > >>>>>>>> people
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
> >>> channel, a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which
> >>> leaves
> >>> > >>>>>>>> no public
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by
> the
> >>> > Flink
> >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are
> >>> good
> >>> > >>>>>>>> starting
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes.
> In
> >>> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> worst
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are
> >>> right
> >>> > >>>>>>>> now.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the
> >>> results
> >>> > are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to
> >>> Slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> content
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source
> space
> >>> has
> >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable
> >>> to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
> >>> Airflow
> >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
> >>> community.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged.
> >>> That can
> >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
> >>> > establish
> >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the
> >>> job. IMO
> >>> > >>>>>>>> it works
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers,
> but
> >>> > it's
> >>> > >>>>>>>> not
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works
> >>> fine, as
> >>> > >>>>>>>> long as
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
> >>> JIRA/mailing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely
> difficult
> >>> to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the
> same
> >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to
> provide a
> >>> > link
> >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
> >>> space/channel
> >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
> >>> > channels
> >>> > >>>>>>>> for the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
> >>> example,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not
> >>> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it
> fit
> >>> our
> >>> > >>>>>>>> use case
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink
> >>> slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
> >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2],
> >>> which
> >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
> >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I
> >>> also
> >>> > >>>>>>>> find a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
> >>> alternative
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite
> >>> open
> >>> > >>>>>>>> to having
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked
> >>> well for
> >>> > >>>>>>>> many
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion
> >>> again:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
> >>> > during
> >>> > >>>>>>>> the past
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers
> >>> and
> >>> > PMC
> >>> > >>>>>>>> members,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
> >>> timezones.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> That also
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
> >>> previous
> >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
> >>> workspace,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
> >>> workspace.
> >>> > And
> >>> > >>>>>>>> instead
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to
> add a
> >>> > Slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
> >>> previous
> >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If
> I
> >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service
> >>> into
> >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
> >>> > service.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing
> lists,
> >>> > JIRA
> >>> > >>>>>>>> and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the
> >>> slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> channel
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would
> >>> much
> >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
> >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler
> <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML
> >>> over
> >>> > the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> years and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that
> would
> >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1
> on
> >>> it.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should
> decide
> >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting
> topic.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition
> to
> >>> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they
> >>> are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> surprised
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would
> >>> love to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
> >>> > >>>>>>>> communities
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and
> >>> asking
> >>> > >>>>>>>> people for
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for
> Q&A
> >>> but
> >>> > >>>>>>>> also a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the
> >>> community
> >>> > >>>>>>>> have more
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> social
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations,
> >>> articles,
> >>> > and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack,
> >>> and I
> >>> > >>>>>>>> can help
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> set
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
> >>> > Apache
> >>> > >>>>>>>> Flink
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real
> time
> >>> > >>>>>>>> communication
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for
> real
> >>> > time
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
> >>> communication,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> especially
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> for
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and
> more
> >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it
> would
> >>> be
> >>> > >>>>>>>> good to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
> >>> maintained
> >>> > >>>>>>>> by the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are
> >>> less
> >>> > >>>>>>>> likely
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls,
> file
> >>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics,
> etc.).
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
> >>> extension
> >>> > >>>>>>>> rather
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
> >>> members
> >>> > >>>>>>>> should
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> still
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the
> mailing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and
> important
> >>> > >>>>>>>> opinions
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After
> all,
> >>> > >>>>>>>> according to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list,
> it
> >>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad
> >>> hoc
> >>> > >>>>>>>> questions on
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow
> >>> long)
> >>> > >>>>>>>> should be
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack
> >>> for a
> >>> > >>>>>>>> real time
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged
> >>> need
> >>> > >>>>>>>> to be
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
> >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication
> >>> easier
> >>> > >>>>>>>> only when
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> all
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that
> >>> people
> >>> > >>>>>>>> should not
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
> >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to
> >>> search
> >>> > >>>>>>>> among them.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
> >>> problem[1]. As
> >>> > >>>>>>>> a first
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting
> things
> >>> back
> >>> > >>>>>>>> to the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
> >>> reflected
> >>> > >>>>>>>> back to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability
> >>> and
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
> >>> projects
> >>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow
> >>> [2],
> >>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache
> Flink,
> >>> we
> >>> > >>>>>>>> would need
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> an
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
> >>> before
> >>> > >>>>>>>> we get to
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3]
> >>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >>
> >>> > >>>>>>>> >
> >>> > >>>>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>>>
> >>> > >>>>>
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> --
> >>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> >>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> --
> >>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> >>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Austin Cawley-Edwards <au...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt community[1],
which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a
large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack has
become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community space —
given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar
challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial
setup/guidelines.

Cheers,
Austin

[1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:

> +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
> +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum (I
> like the idea of using GH discussions)
>
> Besides, we still need to investigate how
>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
>> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
>
>
> This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive.
> I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.
>
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry
>> as Jingsong mentioned.
>> Besides, we still need to investigate how
>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
>> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
>>
>> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
>> complementary.
>> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we
>> are seeking today
>> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions
>> and interactions.
>> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list
>> but can't solve the problems
>> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
>> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
>>
>> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink
>> and keep this thread focused
>> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example
>> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful
>>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as
>> their forum.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jark
>>
>> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
>> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best
>>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
>>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to
>>> use
>>> Slack.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Martijn
>>>
>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However,
>>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
>>> > leveraged easily.
>>> >
>>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack
>>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own
>>> slack
>>> > workspace.
>>> >
>>> > Best
>>> > Yun Tang
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
>>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
>>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>>> >
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache
>>> Druid
>>> > community. [1]
>>> >
>>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new
>>> users
>>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack
>>> channel.
>>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
>>> workspace
>>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
>>> >
>>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
>>> > community
>>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
>>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
>>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
>>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This
>>> lack
>>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
>>> >
>>> > > There is a workaround in place (
>>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can
>>> send an
>>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
>>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to
>>> entry,
>>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential
>>> privacy
>>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid
>>> nor
>>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> > Jingsong
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
>>> then
>>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
>>> anything
>>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more
>>> about
>>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
>>> > easier
>>> > > to find.
>>> > >
>>> > > Thank you~
>>> > >
>>> > > Xintong Song
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people
>>> have
>>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing
>>> list.
>>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and
>>> > search
>>> > >> is easier.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
>>> then
>>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
>>> anything
>>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
>>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack,
>>> and on
>>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and
>>> > keeping
>>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding
>>> bots,
>>> > etc.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency
>>> when
>>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement
>>> would
>>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
>>> perspective,
>>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to
>>> Slack. I
>>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and
>>> > easy to
>>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead.
>>> I'm
>>> > not
>>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they
>>> are
>>> > not
>>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Thank you~
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Xintong Song
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <
>>> knaufk@apache.org>
>>> > >>> wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with
>>> Timo
>>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user
>>> community, and
>>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
>>> > definitely see
>>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>>> > >>>> intimidated.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack.
>>> This
>>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
>>> > discussion
>>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is
>>> > easier
>>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more
>>> sense
>>> > to
>>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant
>>> > than a
>>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have
>>> the
>>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host
>>> it
>>> > on an
>>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a
>>> dedicated
>>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could
>>> have
>>> > more
>>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for
>>> > Slack,
>>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do
>>> this, we
>>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Cheers,
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Konstantin
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful
>>> for
>>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
>>> > channel of
>>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It
>>> could
>>> > also
>>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked
>>> > questions.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
>>> definitely
>>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might
>>> not
>>> > want
>>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get
>>> their
>>> > mailbox
>>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
>>> > setting it
>>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing
>>> > lists and
>>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find
>>> an
>>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right
>>> tool. It
>>> > might
>>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter
>>> > would
>>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
>>> > actually
>>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Regards,
>>> > >>>>> Timo
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
>>> discussions
>>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can
>>> > reach out
>>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a
>>> > paid
>>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough
>>> (took me
>>> > about
>>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> David
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
>>> rmetzger@apache.org>
>>> > >>>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink
>>> website for
>>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but
>>> they
>>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
>>> > that
>>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
>>> solution,
>>> > but it'll
>>> > >>>>>> work.
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>> (1)
>>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
>>> metrobert@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the
>>> ASF
>>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
>>> > Slack,
>>> > >>>>>>>> you can
>>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
>>> metrobert@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
>>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of
>>> > using
>>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
>>> forever,
>>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
>>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance,
>>> that
>>> > we
>>> > >>>>>>>> could
>>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort
>>> > into
>>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
>>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
>>> > >>>>>>>> developer
>>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc
>>> chat.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community"
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
>>> "ground
>>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
>>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
>>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to
>>> find
>>> > some
>>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing
>>> > tool.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some
>>> bad
>>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
>>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>>>> find that
>>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I
>>> would
>>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
>>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really
>>> all
>>> > >>>>>>>> important
>>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that
>>> we
>>> > >>>>>>>> get the
>>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for
>>> > users
>>> > >>>>>>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
>>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using
>>> Slack for
>>> > >>>>>>>> dev
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back
>>> to the
>>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
>>> specifies
>>> > >>>>>>>> what people
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I
>>> > think
>>> > >>>>>>>> that also
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
>>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
>>> concern
>>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
>>> historical
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1],
>>> but
>>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
>>> arguments.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
>>> > calls,
>>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as
>>> David
>>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
>>> attentions on
>>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put
>>> that
>>> > >>>>>>>> into the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink
>>> China
>>> > >>>>>>>> community.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be
>>> less,
>>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What
>>> I'm
>>> > >>>>>>>> really
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between
>>> users &
>>> > >>>>>>>> users than
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
>>> > sharing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
>>> documentations
>>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if
>>> not
>>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
>>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
>>> improvement of
>>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
>>> repeatedly
>>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the
>>> benefit
>>> > of a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we
>>> can
>>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
>>> attention
>>> > >>>>>>>> from the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr &
>>> David.
>>> > >>>>>>>> I think
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up
>>> their
>>> > >>>>>>>> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2],
>>> etc.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
>>> communicate
>>> > >>>>>>>> back and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether
>>> there
>>> > >>>>>>>> are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the
>>> slack,
>>> > to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
>>> mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> list and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to
>>> > do).
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
>>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to
>>> do
>>> > it
>>> > >>>>>>>> on a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
>>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
>>> necessary
>>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
>>> > collective
>>> > >>>>>>>> energy
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow
>>> would
>>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>>> > >>>>>>>> request help
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
>>> > >>>>>>>> existing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
>>> > circumstances,
>>> > >>>>>>>> something
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
>>> > overflow.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> previous
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
>>> having a
>>> > >>>>>>>> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that
>>> this
>>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine
>>> that
>>> > for
>>> > >>>>>>>> people
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
>>> channel, a
>>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which
>>> leaves
>>> > >>>>>>>> no public
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the
>>> > Flink
>>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are
>>> good
>>> > >>>>>>>> starting
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> worst
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are
>>> right
>>> > >>>>>>>> now.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the
>>> results
>>> > are
>>> > >>>>>>>> not
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to
>>> Slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> content
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space
>>> has
>>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
>>> Airflow
>>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
>>> community.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged.
>>> That can
>>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
>>> > establish
>>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the
>>> job. IMO
>>> > >>>>>>>> it works
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but
>>> > it's
>>> > >>>>>>>> not
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works
>>> fine, as
>>> > >>>>>>>> long as
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
>>> JIRA/mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a
>>> > link
>>> > >>>>>>>> to the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
>>> space/channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> for the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
>>> > channels
>>> > >>>>>>>> for the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
>>> example,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit
>>> our
>>> > >>>>>>>> use case
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink
>>> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2],
>>> which
>>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I
>>> also
>>> > >>>>>>>> find a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
>>> alternative
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite
>>> open
>>> > >>>>>>>> to having
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked
>>> well for
>>> > >>>>>>>> many
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion
>>> again:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
>>> > during
>>> > >>>>>>>> the past
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers
>>> and
>>> > PMC
>>> > >>>>>>>> members,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
>>> timezones.
>>> > >>>>>>>> That also
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
>>> previous
>>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
>>> workspace,
>>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
>>> workspace.
>>> > And
>>> > >>>>>>>> instead
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a
>>> > Slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
>>> previous
>>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service
>>> into
>>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
>>> > service.
>>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists,
>>> > JIRA
>>> > >>>>>>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the
>>> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would
>>> much
>>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML
>>> over
>>> > the
>>> > >>>>>>>> years and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on
>>> it.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they
>>> are
>>> > >>>>>>>> surprised
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would
>>> love to
>>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>>> > >>>>>>>> communities
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and
>>> asking
>>> > >>>>>>>> people for
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A
>>> but
>>> > >>>>>>>> also a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the
>>> community
>>> > >>>>>>>> have more
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> social
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations,
>>> articles,
>>> > and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack,
>>> and I
>>> > >>>>>>>> can help
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> set
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
>>> > Apache
>>> > >>>>>>>> Flink
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>> > >>>>>>>> communication
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real
>>> > time
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
>>> communication,
>>> > >>>>>>>> especially
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> for
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>> > >>>>>>>> contributors
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would
>>> be
>>> > >>>>>>>> good to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
>>> maintained
>>> > >>>>>>>> by the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are
>>> less
>>> > >>>>>>>> likely
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
>>> extension
>>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
>>> members
>>> > >>>>>>>> should
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> still
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>> > >>>>>>>> opinions
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> should
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>> > >>>>>>>> according to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
>>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad
>>> hoc
>>> > >>>>>>>> questions on
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow
>>> long)
>>> > >>>>>>>> should be
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack
>>> for a
>>> > >>>>>>>> real time
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged
>>> need
>>> > >>>>>>>> to be
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication
>>> easier
>>> > >>>>>>>> only when
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> all
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that
>>> people
>>> > >>>>>>>> should not
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to
>>> search
>>> > >>>>>>>> among them.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
>>> problem[1]. As
>>> > >>>>>>>> a first
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things
>>> back
>>> > >>>>>>>> to the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
>>> reflected
>>> > >>>>>>>> back to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
>>> projects
>>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow
>>> [2],
>>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink,
>>> we
>>> > >>>>>>>> would need
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> an
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
>>> before
>>> > >>>>>>>> we get to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3]
>>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> --
>>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> --
>>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> >
>>>
>>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Austin Cawley-Edwards <au...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt community[1],
which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a
large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack has
become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community space —
given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar
challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial
setup/guidelines.

Cheers,
Austin

[1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:

> +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
> +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum (I
> like the idea of using GH discussions)
>
> Besides, we still need to investigate how
>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
>> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
>
>
> This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive.
> I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.
>
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry
>> as Jingsong mentioned.
>> Besides, we still need to investigate how
>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
>> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
>>
>> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
>> complementary.
>> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we
>> are seeking today
>> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions
>> and interactions.
>> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list
>> but can't solve the problems
>> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
>> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
>>
>> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink
>> and keep this thread focused
>> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example
>> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful
>>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as
>> their forum.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jark
>>
>> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
>> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best
>>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
>>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to
>>> use
>>> Slack.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Martijn
>>>
>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However,
>>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
>>> > leveraged easily.
>>> >
>>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack
>>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own
>>> slack
>>> > workspace.
>>> >
>>> > Best
>>> > Yun Tang
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
>>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
>>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>>> >
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache
>>> Druid
>>> > community. [1]
>>> >
>>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new
>>> users
>>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack
>>> channel.
>>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
>>> workspace
>>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
>>> >
>>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
>>> > community
>>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
>>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
>>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
>>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This
>>> lack
>>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
>>> >
>>> > > There is a workaround in place (
>>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can
>>> send an
>>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
>>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to
>>> entry,
>>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential
>>> privacy
>>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid
>>> nor
>>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> > Jingsong
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
>>> then
>>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
>>> anything
>>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more
>>> about
>>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
>>> > easier
>>> > > to find.
>>> > >
>>> > > Thank you~
>>> > >
>>> > > Xintong Song
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people
>>> have
>>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing
>>> list.
>>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and
>>> > search
>>> > >> is easier.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
>>> then
>>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
>>> anything
>>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
>>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack,
>>> and on
>>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and
>>> > keeping
>>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding
>>> bots,
>>> > etc.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency
>>> when
>>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement
>>> would
>>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
>>> perspective,
>>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to
>>> Slack. I
>>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and
>>> > easy to
>>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead.
>>> I'm
>>> > not
>>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they
>>> are
>>> > not
>>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Thank you~
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Xintong Song
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <
>>> knaufk@apache.org>
>>> > >>> wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with
>>> Timo
>>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user
>>> community, and
>>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
>>> > definitely see
>>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>>> > >>>> intimidated.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack.
>>> This
>>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
>>> > discussion
>>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is
>>> > easier
>>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more
>>> sense
>>> > to
>>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant
>>> > than a
>>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have
>>> the
>>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host
>>> it
>>> > on an
>>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a
>>> dedicated
>>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could
>>> have
>>> > more
>>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for
>>> > Slack,
>>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do
>>> this, we
>>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Cheers,
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Konstantin
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful
>>> for
>>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
>>> > channel of
>>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It
>>> could
>>> > also
>>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked
>>> > questions.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
>>> definitely
>>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might
>>> not
>>> > want
>>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get
>>> their
>>> > mailbox
>>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
>>> > setting it
>>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing
>>> > lists and
>>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find
>>> an
>>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right
>>> tool. It
>>> > might
>>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter
>>> > would
>>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
>>> > actually
>>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Regards,
>>> > >>>>> Timo
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
>>> discussions
>>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can
>>> > reach out
>>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a
>>> > paid
>>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough
>>> (took me
>>> > about
>>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> David
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
>>> rmetzger@apache.org>
>>> > >>>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink
>>> website for
>>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but
>>> they
>>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
>>> > that
>>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
>>> solution,
>>> > but it'll
>>> > >>>>>> work.
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>> (1)
>>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
>>> metrobert@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the
>>> ASF
>>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
>>> > Slack,
>>> > >>>>>>>> you can
>>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
>>> metrobert@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
>>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of
>>> > using
>>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
>>> forever,
>>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
>>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance,
>>> that
>>> > we
>>> > >>>>>>>> could
>>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort
>>> > into
>>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
>>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
>>> > >>>>>>>> developer
>>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc
>>> chat.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community"
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
>>> "ground
>>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
>>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
>>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to
>>> find
>>> > some
>>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing
>>> > tool.
>>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some
>>> bad
>>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
>>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>>>> find that
>>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I
>>> would
>>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
>>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really
>>> all
>>> > >>>>>>>> important
>>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that
>>> we
>>> > >>>>>>>> get the
>>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for
>>> > users
>>> > >>>>>>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
>>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using
>>> Slack for
>>> > >>>>>>>> dev
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back
>>> to the
>>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
>>> specifies
>>> > >>>>>>>> what people
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I
>>> > think
>>> > >>>>>>>> that also
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
>>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
>>> concern
>>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
>>> historical
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1],
>>> but
>>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
>>> arguments.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
>>> > calls,
>>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as
>>> David
>>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
>>> attentions on
>>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put
>>> that
>>> > >>>>>>>> into the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink
>>> China
>>> > >>>>>>>> community.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be
>>> less,
>>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What
>>> I'm
>>> > >>>>>>>> really
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between
>>> users &
>>> > >>>>>>>> users than
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
>>> > sharing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
>>> documentations
>>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if
>>> not
>>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
>>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
>>> improvement of
>>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
>>> repeatedly
>>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the
>>> benefit
>>> > of a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we
>>> can
>>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
>>> attention
>>> > >>>>>>>> from the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr &
>>> David.
>>> > >>>>>>>> I think
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up
>>> their
>>> > >>>>>>>> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2],
>>> etc.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
>>> communicate
>>> > >>>>>>>> back and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether
>>> there
>>> > >>>>>>>> are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the
>>> slack,
>>> > to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
>>> mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> list and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to
>>> > do).
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
>>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to
>>> do
>>> > it
>>> > >>>>>>>> on a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
>>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
>>> necessary
>>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
>>> > collective
>>> > >>>>>>>> energy
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow
>>> would
>>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>>> > >>>>>>>> request help
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
>>> > >>>>>>>> existing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
>>> > circumstances,
>>> > >>>>>>>> something
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
>>> > overflow.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> previous
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
>>> having a
>>> > >>>>>>>> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that
>>> this
>>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine
>>> that
>>> > for
>>> > >>>>>>>> people
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
>>> channel, a
>>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which
>>> leaves
>>> > >>>>>>>> no public
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the
>>> > Flink
>>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are
>>> good
>>> > >>>>>>>> starting
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> worst
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are
>>> right
>>> > >>>>>>>> now.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the
>>> results
>>> > are
>>> > >>>>>>>> not
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to
>>> Slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> content
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space
>>> has
>>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
>>> Airflow
>>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
>>> community.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged.
>>> That can
>>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
>>> > establish
>>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the
>>> job. IMO
>>> > >>>>>>>> it works
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but
>>> > it's
>>> > >>>>>>>> not
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works
>>> fine, as
>>> > >>>>>>>> long as
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
>>> JIRA/mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a
>>> > link
>>> > >>>>>>>> to the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
>>> space/channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> for the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
>>> > channels
>>> > >>>>>>>> for the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
>>> example,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit
>>> our
>>> > >>>>>>>> use case
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink
>>> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2],
>>> which
>>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I
>>> also
>>> > >>>>>>>> find a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
>>> alternative
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite
>>> open
>>> > >>>>>>>> to having
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked
>>> well for
>>> > >>>>>>>> many
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion
>>> again:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
>>> > during
>>> > >>>>>>>> the past
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers
>>> and
>>> > PMC
>>> > >>>>>>>> members,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
>>> timezones.
>>> > >>>>>>>> That also
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
>>> previous
>>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
>>> workspace,
>>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
>>> workspace.
>>> > And
>>> > >>>>>>>> instead
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a
>>> > Slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
>>> previous
>>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service
>>> into
>>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
>>> > service.
>>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists,
>>> > JIRA
>>> > >>>>>>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the
>>> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would
>>> much
>>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML
>>> over
>>> > the
>>> > >>>>>>>> years and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on
>>> it.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they
>>> are
>>> > >>>>>>>> surprised
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would
>>> love to
>>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>>> > >>>>>>>> communities
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and
>>> asking
>>> > >>>>>>>> people for
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A
>>> but
>>> > >>>>>>>> also a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the
>>> community
>>> > >>>>>>>> have more
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> social
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations,
>>> articles,
>>> > and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack,
>>> and I
>>> > >>>>>>>> can help
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> set
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
>>> > Apache
>>> > >>>>>>>> Flink
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>> > >>>>>>>> communication
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real
>>> > time
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
>>> communication,
>>> > >>>>>>>> especially
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> for
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>> > >>>>>>>> contributors
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would
>>> be
>>> > >>>>>>>> good to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
>>> maintained
>>> > >>>>>>>> by the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are
>>> less
>>> > >>>>>>>> likely
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
>>> extension
>>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
>>> members
>>> > >>>>>>>> should
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> still
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>> > >>>>>>>> opinions
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> should
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>> > >>>>>>>> according to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
>>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad
>>> hoc
>>> > >>>>>>>> questions on
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow
>>> long)
>>> > >>>>>>>> should be
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack
>>> for a
>>> > >>>>>>>> real time
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged
>>> need
>>> > >>>>>>>> to be
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication
>>> easier
>>> > >>>>>>>> only when
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> all
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that
>>> people
>>> > >>>>>>>> should not
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to
>>> search
>>> > >>>>>>>> among them.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
>>> problem[1]. As
>>> > >>>>>>>> a first
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things
>>> back
>>> > >>>>>>>> to the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
>>> reflected
>>> > >>>>>>>> back to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
>>> projects
>>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow
>>> [2],
>>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink,
>>> we
>>> > >>>>>>>> would need
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> an
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
>>> before
>>> > >>>>>>>> we get to
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3]
>>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>>> > >>>>>>>> >
>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> --
>>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> --
>>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> >
>>>
>>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>]

+1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
+1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum (I
like the idea of using GH discussions)

Besides, we still need to investigate how
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.


This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive. I'm
happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.


On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry as
> Jingsong mentioned.
> Besides, we still need to investigate how
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
>
> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
> complementary.
> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we
> are seeking today
> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions
> and interactions.
> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list
> but can't solve the problems
> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
>
> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink
> and keep this thread focused
> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example GitHub
> Discussion which is free, powerful
>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as
> their forum.
>
> Best,
> Jark
>
> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
>
>
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best
>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use
>> Slack.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However,
>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
>> > leveraged easily.
>> >
>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack
>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own
>> slack
>> > workspace.
>> >
>> > Best
>> > Yun Tang
>> > ------------------------------
>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache
>> Druid
>> > community. [1]
>> >
>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new
>> users
>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack
>> channel.
>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
>> workspace
>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
>> >
>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
>> > community
>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This
>> lack
>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
>> >
>> > > There is a workaround in place (
>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send
>> an
>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to
>> entry,
>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
>> >
>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Jingsong
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
>> then
>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
>> anything
>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more
>> about
>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
>> > easier
>> > > to find.
>> > >
>> > > Thank you~
>> > >
>> > > Xintong Song
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people
>> have
>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>> > >>
>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing
>> list.
>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and
>> > search
>> > >> is easier.
>> > >>
>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
>> then
>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
>> anything
>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>> > >>
>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and
>> on
>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and
>> > keeping
>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding
>> bots,
>> > etc.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency
>> when
>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement
>> would
>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
>> perspective,
>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to
>> Slack. I
>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and
>> > easy to
>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead.
>> I'm
>> > not
>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they
>> are
>> > not
>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Thank you~
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Xintong Song
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <knaufk@apache.org
>> >
>> > >>> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with
>> Timo
>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community,
>> and
>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
>> > definitely see
>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>> > >>>> intimidated.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack.
>> This
>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
>> > discussion
>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is
>> > easier
>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more
>> sense
>> > to
>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant
>> > than a
>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have
>> the
>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host
>> it
>> > on an
>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could
>> have
>> > more
>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for
>> > Slack,
>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do
>> this, we
>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Cheers,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Konstantin
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful
>> for
>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
>> > channel of
>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It
>> could
>> > also
>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked
>> > questions.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
>> definitely
>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might
>> not
>> > want
>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their
>> > mailbox
>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
>> > setting it
>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing
>> > lists and
>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool.
>> It
>> > might
>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter
>> > would
>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
>> > actually
>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Regards,
>> > >>>>> Timo
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
>> discussions
>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can
>> > reach out
>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a
>> > paid
>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took
>> me
>> > about
>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> David
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
>> rmetzger@apache.org>
>> > >>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website
>> for
>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but
>> they
>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
>> > that
>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution,
>> > but it'll
>> > >>>>>> work.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> (1)
>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
>> metrobert@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the
>> ASF
>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
>> > Slack,
>> > >>>>>>>> you can
>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
>> metrobert@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of
>> > using
>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
>> forever,
>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance,
>> that
>> > we
>> > >>>>>>>> could
>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort
>> > into
>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
>> > >>>>>>>> developer
>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc
>> chat.
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community"
>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
>> "ground
>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond
>> to
>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find
>> > some
>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing
>> > tool.
>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some
>> bad
>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
>> > >>>>>>>> find that
>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really
>> all
>> > >>>>>>>> important
>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that
>> we
>> > >>>>>>>> get the
>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for
>> > users
>> > >>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack
>> for
>> > >>>>>>>> dev
>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to
>> the
>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
>> specifies
>> > >>>>>>>> what people
>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I
>> > think
>> > >>>>>>>> that also
>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
>> concern
>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
>> historical
>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1],
>> but
>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
>> arguments.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
>> > calls,
>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as
>> David
>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
>> attentions on
>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put
>> that
>> > >>>>>>>> into the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink
>> China
>> > >>>>>>>> community.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be
>> less,
>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
>> > >>>>>>>> really
>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between
>> users &
>> > >>>>>>>> users than
>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
>> > sharing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
>> documentations
>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if
>> not
>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement
>> of
>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
>> repeatedly
>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit
>> > of a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
>> > >>>>>>>> from the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr &
>> David.
>> > >>>>>>>> I think
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up
>> their
>> > >>>>>>>> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2],
>> etc.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
>> communicate
>> > >>>>>>>> back and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether
>> there
>> > >>>>>>>> are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the
>> slack,
>> > to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
>> mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> list and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to
>> > do).
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to
>> do
>> > it
>> > >>>>>>>> on a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
>> > collective
>> > >>>>>>>> energy
>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow
>> would
>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>> > >>>>>>>> request help
>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
>> > >>>>>>>> existing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
>> > circumstances,
>> > >>>>>>>> something
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
>> > overflow.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in
>> the
>> > >>>>>>>> previous
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
>> having a
>> > >>>>>>>> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that
>> this
>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that
>> > for
>> > >>>>>>>> people
>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
>> channel, a
>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which
>> leaves
>> > >>>>>>>> no public
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the
>> > Flink
>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are
>> good
>> > >>>>>>>> starting
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In
>> the
>> > >>>>>>>> worst
>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are
>> right
>> > >>>>>>>> now.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results
>> > are
>> > >>>>>>>> not
>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to
>> Slack
>> > >>>>>>>> content
>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space
>> has
>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
>> Airflow
>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
>> community.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That
>> can
>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
>> > establish
>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job.
>> IMO
>> > >>>>>>>> it works
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but
>> > it's
>> > >>>>>>>> not
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works
>> fine, as
>> > >>>>>>>> long as
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
>> JIRA/mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult
>> to
>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a
>> > link
>> > >>>>>>>> to the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
>> space/channel
>> > >>>>>>>> for the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
>> > channels
>> > >>>>>>>> for the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
>> example,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit
>> our
>> > >>>>>>>> use case
>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink
>> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2],
>> which
>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I
>> also
>> > >>>>>>>> find a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
>> alternative
>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite
>> open
>> > >>>>>>>> to having
>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well
>> for
>> > >>>>>>>> many
>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion
>> again:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
>> > during
>> > >>>>>>>> the past
>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and
>> > PMC
>> > >>>>>>>> members,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
>> timezones.
>> > >>>>>>>> That also
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
>> workspace,
>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace.
>> > And
>> > >>>>>>>> instead
>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a
>> > Slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
>> previous
>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
>> > service.
>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists,
>> > JIRA
>> > >>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the
>> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> channel
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would
>> much
>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over
>> > the
>> > >>>>>>>> years and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on
>> it.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to
>> the
>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>> > >>>>>>>> surprised
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would
>> love to
>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>> > >>>>>>>> communities
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and
>> asking
>> > >>>>>>>> people for
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A
>> but
>> > >>>>>>>> also a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
>> > >>>>>>>> have more
>> > >>>>>>>> >> social
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles,
>> > and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack,
>> and I
>> > >>>>>>>> can help
>> > >>>>>>>> >> set
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
>> > Apache
>> > >>>>>>>> Flink
>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>> > >>>>>>>> communication
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real
>> > time
>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
>> communication,
>> > >>>>>>>> especially
>> > >>>>>>>> >> for
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>> > >>>>>>>> contributors
>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would
>> be
>> > >>>>>>>> good to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
>> maintained
>> > >>>>>>>> by the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are
>> less
>> > >>>>>>>> likely
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
>> extension
>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
>> members
>> > >>>>>>>> should
>> > >>>>>>>> >> still
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
>> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>> > >>>>>>>> opinions
>> > >>>>>>>> >> should
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>> > >>>>>>>> according to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>> > >>>>>>>> questions on
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow
>> long)
>> > >>>>>>>> should be
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack
>> for a
>> > >>>>>>>> real time
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged
>> need
>> > >>>>>>>> to be
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication
>> easier
>> > >>>>>>>> only when
>> > >>>>>>>> >> all
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that
>> people
>> > >>>>>>>> should not
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to
>> search
>> > >>>>>>>> among them.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
>> problem[1]. As
>> > >>>>>>>> a first
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things
>> back
>> > >>>>>>>> to the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
>> reflected
>> > >>>>>>>> back to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability
>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
>> projects
>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow
>> [2],
>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink,
>> we
>> > >>>>>>>> would need
>> > >>>>>>>> >> an
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
>> before
>> > >>>>>>>> we get to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> --
>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>]

+1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned)
+1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum (I
like the idea of using GH discussions)

Besides, we still need to investigate how
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.


This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive. I'm
happy to look into setting up the archive for the community.


On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry as
> Jingsong mentioned.
> Besides, we still need to investigate how
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
>
> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
> complementary.
> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we
> are seeking today
> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions
> and interactions.
> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list
> but can't solve the problems
> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
> discussion in Slack can also be searchable.
>
> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink
> and keep this thread focused
> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example GitHub
> Discussion which is free, powerful
>  and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as
> their forum.
>
> Best,
> Jark
>
> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions
>
>
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best
>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use
>> Slack.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However,
>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
>> > leveraged easily.
>> >
>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack
>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own
>> slack
>> > workspace.
>> >
>> > Best
>> > Yun Tang
>> > ------------------------------
>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
>> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache
>> Druid
>> > community. [1]
>> >
>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new
>> users
>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack
>> channel.
>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the
>> workspace
>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
>> >
>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
>> > community
>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This
>> lack
>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
>> >
>> > > There is a workaround in place (
>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send
>> an
>> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to
>> entry,
>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
>> >
>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Jingsong
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
>> then
>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
>> anything
>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more
>> about
>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
>> > easier
>> > > to find.
>> > >
>> > > Thank you~
>> > >
>> > > Xintong Song
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people
>> have
>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>> > >>
>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing
>> list.
>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and
>> > search
>> > >> is easier.
>> > >>
>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
>> then
>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there
>> anything
>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>> > >>
>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and
>> on
>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and
>> > keeping
>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding
>> bots,
>> > etc.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency
>> when
>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement
>> would
>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
>> perspective,
>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to
>> Slack. I
>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and
>> > easy to
>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead.
>> I'm
>> > not
>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they
>> are
>> > not
>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Thank you~
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Xintong Song
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <knaufk@apache.org
>> >
>> > >>> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with
>> Timo
>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community,
>> and
>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
>> > definitely see
>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>> > >>>> intimidated.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack.
>> This
>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
>> > discussion
>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is
>> > easier
>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more
>> sense
>> > to
>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant
>> > than a
>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have
>> the
>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host
>> it
>> > on an
>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could
>> have
>> > more
>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for
>> > Slack,
>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do
>> this, we
>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Cheers,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Konstantin
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful
>> for
>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
>> > channel of
>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It
>> could
>> > also
>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked
>> > questions.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
>> definitely
>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might
>> not
>> > want
>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their
>> > mailbox
>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
>> > setting it
>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing
>> > lists and
>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool.
>> It
>> > might
>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter
>> > would
>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
>> > actually
>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Regards,
>> > >>>>> Timo
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
>> discussions
>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can
>> > reach out
>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a
>> > paid
>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took
>> me
>> > about
>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> David
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
>> rmetzger@apache.org>
>> > >>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website
>> for
>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but
>> they
>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
>> > that
>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution,
>> > but it'll
>> > >>>>>> work.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> (1)
>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
>> metrobert@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the
>> ASF
>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
>> > Slack,
>> > >>>>>>>> you can
>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>> > >>>>>>>> committer.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
>> metrobert@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of
>> > using
>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
>> forever,
>> > >>>>>>>> and quite
>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance,
>> that
>> > we
>> > >>>>>>>> could
>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort
>> > into
>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
>> > >>>>>>>> developer
>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc
>> chat.
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community"
>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
>> "ground
>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond
>> to
>> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find
>> > some
>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing
>> > tool.
>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some
>> bad
>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>> > >>>>>>>> advanced
>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
>> > >>>>>>>> find that
>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>> > >>>>>>>> suggest
>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really
>> all
>> > >>>>>>>> important
>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that
>> we
>> > >>>>>>>> get the
>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for
>> > users
>> > >>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>> > >>>>>>>> developers,
>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack
>> for
>> > >>>>>>>> dev
>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to
>> the
>> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
>> specifies
>> > >>>>>>>> what people
>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I
>> > think
>> > >>>>>>>> that also
>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
>> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
>> concern
>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>> > >>>>>>>> different users,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
>> historical
>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1],
>> but
>> > >>>>>>>> none of them
>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
>> arguments.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
>> > calls,
>> > >>>>>>>> etc.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as
>> David
>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
>> attentions on
>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> now
>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put
>> that
>> > >>>>>>>> into the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>> > >>>>>>>> initiate
>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink
>> China
>> > >>>>>>>> community.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> We
>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be
>> less,
>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
>> > >>>>>>>> >> do
>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
>> > >>>>>>>> really
>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between
>> users &
>> > >>>>>>>> users than
>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
>> > sharing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
>> documentations
>> > >>>>>>>> and solving
>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if
>> not
>> > >>>>>>>> proactively
>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
>> > >>>>>>>> active compared
>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement
>> of
>> > >>>>>>>> interaction
>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
>> repeatedly
>> > >>>>>>>> asked &
>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit
>> > of a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
>> > >>>>>>>> bring such
>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
>> > >>>>>>>> from the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr &
>> David.
>> > >>>>>>>> I think
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up
>> their
>> > >>>>>>>> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2],
>> etc.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
>> communicate
>> > >>>>>>>> back and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether
>> there
>> > >>>>>>>> are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the
>> slack,
>> > to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
>> mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> list and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to
>> > do).
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to
>> do
>> > it
>> > >>>>>>>> on a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
>> > >>>>>>>> overflow
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>> > >>>>>>>> expertise
>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
>> > collective
>> > >>>>>>>> energy
>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow
>> would
>> > >>>>>>>> be a good
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>> > >>>>>>>> request help
>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
>> > >>>>>>>> existing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>> > >>>>>>>> what's going
>> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
>> > circumstances,
>> > >>>>>>>> something
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
>> > overflow.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in
>> the
>> > >>>>>>>> previous
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
>> having a
>> > >>>>>>>> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that
>> this
>> > >>>>>>>> topic is
>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that
>> > for
>> > >>>>>>>> people
>> > >>>>>>>> >> who
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
>> channel, a
>> > >>>>>>>> lot of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which
>> leaves
>> > >>>>>>>> no public
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the
>> > Flink
>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are
>> good
>> > >>>>>>>> starting
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In
>> the
>> > >>>>>>>> worst
>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are
>> right
>> > >>>>>>>> now.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results
>> > are
>> > >>>>>>>> not
>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to
>> Slack
>> > >>>>>>>> content
>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space
>> has
>> > >>>>>>>> progressed
>> > >>>>>>>> >> and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>> > >>>>>>>> users. There
>> > >>>>>>>> >> are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
>> Airflow
>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>> > >>>>>>>> >> see
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
>> community.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>> > >>>>>>>> well-known
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That
>> can
>> > >>>>>>>> cause a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
>> > establish
>> > >>>>>>>> a set of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job.
>> IMO
>> > >>>>>>>> it works
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but
>> > it's
>> > >>>>>>>> not
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works
>> fine, as
>> > >>>>>>>> long as
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
>> JIRA/mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> list/design
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult
>> to
>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a
>> > link
>> > >>>>>>>> to the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
>> space/channel
>> > >>>>>>>> for the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
>> > channels
>> > >>>>>>>> for the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
>> example,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit
>> our
>> > >>>>>>>> use case
>> > >>>>>>>> >> much
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink
>> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> workspace
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2],
>> which
>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>> > >>>>>>>> questions about
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I
>> also
>> > >>>>>>>> find a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
>> alternative
>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite
>> open
>> > >>>>>>>> to having
>> > >>>>>>>> >> such
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well
>> for
>> > >>>>>>>> many
>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion
>> again:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
>> > during
>> > >>>>>>>> the past
>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and
>> > PMC
>> > >>>>>>>> members,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
>> timezones.
>> > >>>>>>>> That also
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
>> workspace,
>> > >>>>>>>> here we are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace.
>> > And
>> > >>>>>>>> instead
>> > >>>>>>>> >> of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a
>> > Slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
>> previous
>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
>> > service.
>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists,
>> > JIRA
>> > >>>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the
>> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> channel
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would
>> much
>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over
>> > the
>> > >>>>>>>> years and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on
>> it.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to
>> the
>> > >>>>>>>> mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>> > >>>>>>>> surprised
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would
>> love to
>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>> > >>>>>>>> communities
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and
>> asking
>> > >>>>>>>> people for
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A
>> but
>> > >>>>>>>> also a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
>> > >>>>>>>> have more
>> > >>>>>>>> >> social
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles,
>> > and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack,
>> and I
>> > >>>>>>>> can help
>> > >>>>>>>> >> set
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
>> > Apache
>> > >>>>>>>> Flink
>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>> > >>>>>>>> communication
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real
>> > time
>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
>> communication,
>> > >>>>>>>> especially
>> > >>>>>>>> >> for
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>> > >>>>>>>> contributors
>> > >>>>>>>> >> from
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would
>> be
>> > >>>>>>>> good to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
>> maintained
>> > >>>>>>>> by the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are
>> less
>> > >>>>>>>> likely
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
>> extension
>> > >>>>>>>> rather
>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
>> members
>> > >>>>>>>> should
>> > >>>>>>>> >> still
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
>> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>> > >>>>>>>> opinions
>> > >>>>>>>> >> should
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>> > >>>>>>>> according to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>> > >>>>>>>> questions on
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow
>> long)
>> > >>>>>>>> should be
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack
>> for a
>> > >>>>>>>> real time
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged
>> need
>> > >>>>>>>> to be
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication
>> easier
>> > >>>>>>>> only when
>> > >>>>>>>> >> all
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that
>> people
>> > >>>>>>>> should not
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to
>> search
>> > >>>>>>>> among them.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
>> problem[1]. As
>> > >>>>>>>> a first
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things
>> back
>> > >>>>>>>> to the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
>> reflected
>> > >>>>>>>> back to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> the
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability
>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
>> projects
>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow
>> [2],
>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink,
>> we
>> > >>>>>>>> would need
>> > >>>>>>>> >> an
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
>> before
>> > >>>>>>>> we get to
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>> > >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >> >
>> > >>>>>>>> >>
>> > >>>>>>>> >
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> --
>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry as
Jingsong mentioned.
Besides, we still need to investigate how
http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.

Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
complementary.
Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we
are seeking today
is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions and
interactions.
A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list but
can't solve the problems
mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
discussion in Slack can also be searchable.

I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink
and keep this thread focused
on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example GitHub
Discussion which is free, powerful
 and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as
their forum.

Best,
Jark

[1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
[2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions


On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best
> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use
> Slack.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martijn
>
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However,
> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
> > leveraged easily.
> >
> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack
> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own
> slack
> > workspace.
> >
> > Best
> > Yun Tang
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid
> > community. [1]
> >
> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users
> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack
> channel.
> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace
> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
> >
> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
> > community
> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This
> lack
> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
> >
> > > There is a workaround in place (
> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send
> an
> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to
> entry,
> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
> >
> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
> >
> > Best,
> > Jingsong
> >
> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
> then
> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more
> about
> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
> > easier
> > > to find.
> > >
> > > Thank you~
> > >
> > > Xintong Song
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people
> have
> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> > >>
> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing
> list.
> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and
> > search
> > >> is easier.
> > >>
> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
> then
> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> > >>
> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and
> on
> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> > >>>
> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and
> > keeping
> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding
> bots,
> > etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency
> when
> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
> perspective,
> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack.
> I
> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and
> > easy to
> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead.
> I'm
> > not
> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they
> are
> > not
> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thank you~
> > >>>
> > >>> Xintong Song
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with
> Timo
> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community,
> and
> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
> > definitely see
> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
> > >>>> intimidated.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack.
> This
> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
> > discussion
> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is
> > easier
> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more
> sense
> > to
> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant
> > than a
> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it
> > on an
> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have
> > more
> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for
> > Slack,
> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this,
> we
> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Konstantin
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
> > channel of
> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It
> could
> > also
> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked
> > questions.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
> definitely
> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might
> not
> > want
> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their
> > mailbox
> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
> > setting it
> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing
> > lists and
> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool.
> It
> > might
> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter
> > would
> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
> > actually
> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>> Timo
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
> discussions
> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can
> > reach out
> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a
> > paid
> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took
> me
> > about
> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> David
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
> rmetzger@apache.org>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website
> for
> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
> > that
> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution,
> > but it'll
> > >>>>>> work.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> (1)
> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the
> ASF
> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> > >>>>>>>
> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
> > Slack,
> > >>>>>>>> you can
> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
> > >>>>>>>> committer.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of
> > using
> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
> forever,
> > >>>>>>>> and quite
> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that
> > we
> > >>>>>>>> could
> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort
> > into
> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
> > >>>>>>>> developer
> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community"
> and
> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to
> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find
> > some
> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing
> > tool.
> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some
> bad
> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
> > >>>>>>>> advanced
> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
> > >>>>>>>> find that
> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
> > >>>>>>>> suggest
> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
> > >>>>>>>> important
> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we
> > >>>>>>>> get the
> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for
> > users
> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
> > >>>>>>>> developers,
> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack
> for
> > >>>>>>>> dev
> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to
> the
> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
> > >>>>>>>> what people
> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I
> > think
> > >>>>>>>> that also
> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
> concern
> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
> > >>>>>>>> different users,
> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
> historical
> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
> > >>>>>>>> none of them
> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
> arguments.
> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
> > calls,
> > >>>>>>>> etc.
> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as
> David
> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions
> on
> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
> > >>>>>>>> >> now
> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put
> that
> > >>>>>>>> into the
> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
> > >>>>>>>> initiate
> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
> > >>>>>>>> community.
> > >>>>>>>> >> We
> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be
> less,
> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
> > >>>>>>>> >> do
> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
> > >>>>>>>> really
> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users
> &
> > >>>>>>>> users than
> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
> > sharing
> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations
> > >>>>>>>> and solving
> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if
> not
> > >>>>>>>> proactively
> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
> > >>>>>>>> active compared
> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement
> of
> > >>>>>>>> interaction
> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
> > >>>>>>>> asked &
> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit
> > of a
> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
> > >>>>>>>> bring such
> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
> > >>>>>>>> from the
> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr &
> David.
> > >>>>>>>> I think
> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up
> their
> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2],
> etc.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
> communicate
> > >>>>>>>> back and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether
> there
> > >>>>>>>> are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack,
> > to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
> mailing
> > >>>>>>>> list and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to
> > do).
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do
> > it
> > >>>>>>>> on a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
> > >>>>>>>> overflow
> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
> > >>>>>>>> expertise
> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
> > collective
> > >>>>>>>> energy
> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow
> would
> > >>>>>>>> be a good
> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
> > >>>>>>>> request help
> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
> > >>>>>>>> existing
> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
> > >>>>>>>> what's going
> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> > circumstances,
> > >>>>>>>> something
> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
> > overflow.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in
> the
> > >>>>>>>> previous
> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having
> a
> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
> > >>>>>>>> topic is
> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that
> > for
> > >>>>>>>> people
> > >>>>>>>> >> who
> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel,
> a
> > >>>>>>>> lot of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which
> leaves
> > >>>>>>>> no public
> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the
> > Flink
> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are
> good
> > >>>>>>>> starting
> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In
> the
> > >>>>>>>> worst
> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are
> right
> > >>>>>>>> now.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results
> > are
> > >>>>>>>> not
> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to
> Slack
> > >>>>>>>> content
> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space
> has
> > >>>>>>>> progressed
> > >>>>>>>> >> and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
> > >>>>>>>> users. There
> > >>>>>>>> >> are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> > >>>>>>>> >> see
> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
> > >>>>>>>> well-known
> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That
> can
> > >>>>>>>> cause a
> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
> > establish
> > >>>>>>>> a set of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job.
> IMO
> > >>>>>>>> it works
> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but
> > it's
> > >>>>>>>> not
> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine,
> as
> > >>>>>>>> long as
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
> JIRA/mailing
> > >>>>>>>> list/design
> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a
> > link
> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
> space/channel
> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
> > channels
> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
> example,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit
> our
> > >>>>>>>> use case
> > >>>>>>>> >> much
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink
> slack
> > >>>>>>>> workspace
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which
> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
> > >>>>>>>> questions about
> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
> > >>>>>>>> find a
> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite
> open
> > >>>>>>>> to having
> > >>>>>>>> >> such
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well
> for
> > >>>>>>>> many
> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
> > during
> > >>>>>>>> the past
> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and
> > PMC
> > >>>>>>>> members,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
> > >>>>>>>> That also
> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
> workspace,
> > >>>>>>>> here we are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace.
> > And
> > >>>>>>>> instead
> > >>>>>>>> >> of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a
> > Slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
> previous
> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292
> >
> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
> > service.
> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists,
> > JIRA
> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the
> slack
> > >>>>>>>> channel
> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over
> > the
> > >>>>>>>> years and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on
> it.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to
> the
> > >>>>>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
> > >>>>>>>> surprised
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love
> to
> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
> > >>>>>>>> communities
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
> > >>>>>>>> people for
> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A
> but
> > >>>>>>>> also a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
> > >>>>>>>> have more
> > >>>>>>>> >> social
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles,
> > and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and
> I
> > >>>>>>>> can help
> > >>>>>>>> >> set
> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
> > Apache
> > >>>>>>>> Flink
> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
> > >>>>>>>> communication
> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real
> > time
> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
> > >>>>>>>> especially
> > >>>>>>>> >> for
> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
> > >>>>>>>> contributors
> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
> > >>>>>>>> good to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
> maintained
> > >>>>>>>> by the
> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are
> less
> > >>>>>>>> likely
> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
> extension
> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
> members
> > >>>>>>>> should
> > >>>>>>>> >> still
> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
> > >>>>>>>> opinions
> > >>>>>>>> >> should
> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
> > >>>>>>>> according to
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
> > >>>>>>>> questions on
> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow
> long)
> > >>>>>>>> should be
> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack
> for a
> > >>>>>>>> real time
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged
> need
> > >>>>>>>> to be
> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
> > >>>>>>>> only when
> > >>>>>>>> >> all
> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that
> people
> > >>>>>>>> should not
> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
> > >>>>>>>> among them.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1].
> As
> > >>>>>>>> a first
> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things
> back
> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
> reflected
> > >>>>>>>> back to
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
> projects
> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
> > >>>>>>>> would need
> > >>>>>>>> >> an
> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
> before
> > >>>>>>>> we get to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> > >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
> > >>
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry as
Jingsong mentioned.
Besides, we still need to investigate how
http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think
a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.

Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but
complementary.
Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we
are seeking today
is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions and
interactions.
A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list but
can't solve the problems
mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful
discussion in Slack can also be searchable.

I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink
and keep this thread focused
on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example GitHub
Discussion which is free, powerful
 and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as
their forum.

Best,
Jark

[1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions
[2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions


On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best
> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use
> Slack.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martijn
>
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However,
> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
> > leveraged easily.
> >
> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack
> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own
> slack
> > workspace.
> >
> > Best
> > Yun Tang
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> > *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid
> > community. [1]
> >
> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users
> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack
> channel.
> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace
> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
> >
> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
> > community
> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This
> lack
> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
> >
> > > There is a workaround in place (
> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send
> an
> > email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to
> entry,
> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
> >
> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
> >
> > Best,
> > Jingsong
> >
> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
> then
> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more
> about
> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
> > easier
> > > to find.
> > >
> > > Thank you~
> > >
> > > Xintong Song
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people
> have
> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> > >>
> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing
> list.
> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and
> > search
> > >> is easier.
> > >>
> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and
> then
> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> > >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> > >>
> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and
> on
> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> > >>>
> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and
> > keeping
> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding
> bots,
> > etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency
> when
> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that
> perspective,
> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack.
> I
> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and
> > easy to
> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead.
> I'm
> > not
> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they
> are
> > not
> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thank you~
> > >>>
> > >>> Xintong Song
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with
> Timo
> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community,
> and
> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
> > definitely see
> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
> > >>>> intimidated.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack.
> This
> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
> > discussion
> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is
> > easier
> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more
> sense
> > to
> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant
> > than a
> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it
> > on an
> > >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have
> > more
> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for
> > Slack,
> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this,
> we
> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Konstantin
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> > >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
> > channel of
> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It
> could
> > also
> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked
> > questions.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should
> definitely
> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might
> not
> > want
> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their
> > mailbox
> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
> > setting it
> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing
> > lists and
> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool.
> It
> > might
> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter
> > would
> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
> > actually
> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>> Timo
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for
> discussions
> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can
> > reach out
> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a
> > paid
> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took
> me
> > about
> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> David
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <
> rmetzger@apache.org>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website
> for
> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
> > that
> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution,
> > but it'll
> > >>>>>> work.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> (1)
> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <
> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the
> ASF
> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> > >>>>>>>
> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
> > Slack,
> > >>>>>>>> you can
> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
> > >>>>>>>> committer.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <
> metrobert@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of
> > using
> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
> forever,
> > >>>>>>>> and quite
> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that
> > we
> > >>>>>>>> could
> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort
> > into
> > >>>>>>>> it, on a
> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
> > >>>>>>>> developer
> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community"
> and
> > >>>>>>>> "Getting
> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
> > >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
> > >>>>>>>> communication, but
> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to
> > >>>>>>>> DMs)
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find
> > some
> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing
> > tool.
> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some
> bad
> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
> > >>>>>>>> advanced
> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
> > >>>>>>>> find that
> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
> > >>>>>>>> suggest
> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
> > >>>>>>>> important
> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we
> > >>>>>>>> get the
> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for
> > users
> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
> > >>>>>>>> developers,
> > >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack
> for
> > >>>>>>>> dev
> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to
> the
> > >>>>>>>> MLs.
> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
> > >>>>>>>> what people
> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I
> > think
> > >>>>>>>> that also
> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
> > >>>>>>>> conduct.
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
> concern
> > >>>>>>>> is that, we
> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
> > >>>>>>>> different users,
> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
> historical
> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
> > >>>>>>>> archivability and
> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
> > >>>>>>>> none of them
> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
> arguments.
> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
> > >>>>>>>> helpers with
> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
> > calls,
> > >>>>>>>> etc.
> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as
> David
> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions
> on
> > >>>>>>>> MLs are
> > >>>>>>>> >> now
> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put
> that
> > >>>>>>>> into the
> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
> > >>>>>>>> initiate
> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
> > >>>>>>>> community.
> > >>>>>>>> >> We
> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be
> less,
> > >>>>>>>> I didn't
> > >>>>>>>> >> do
> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
> > >>>>>>>> really
> > >>>>>>>> >> excited
> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users
> &
> > >>>>>>>> users than
> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
> > sharing
> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations
> > >>>>>>>> and solving
> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if
> not
> > >>>>>>>> proactively
> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
> > >>>>>>>> active compared
> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement
> of
> > >>>>>>>> interaction
> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
> > >>>>>>>> asked &
> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit
> > of a
> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
> > >>>>>>>> bring such
> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
> > >>>>>>>> from the
> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr &
> David.
> > >>>>>>>> I think
> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> > >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up
> their
> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2],
> etc.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
> communicate
> > >>>>>>>> back and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether
> there
> > >>>>>>>> are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack,
> > to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
> mailing
> > >>>>>>>> list and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to
> > do).
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> > >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
> > >>>>>>>> result I get a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do
> > it
> > >>>>>>>> on a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
> > >>>>>>>> overflow
> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
> > >>>>>>>> expertise
> > >>>>>>>> >> takes
> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
> > collective
> > >>>>>>>> energy
> > >>>>>>>> >> to do
> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow
> would
> > >>>>>>>> be a good
> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
> > >>>>>>>> request help
> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
> > >>>>>>>> existing
> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
> > >>>>>>>> what's going
> > >>>>>>>> >> on.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> > >>>>>>>> >> when a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> > circumstances,
> > >>>>>>>> something
> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
> > overflow.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> > >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in
> the
> > >>>>>>>> previous
> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having
> a
> > >>>>>>>> slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> channel
> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
> > >>>>>>>> topic is
> > >>>>>>>> >> raised
> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
> > >>>>>>>> Although it has
> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that
> > for
> > >>>>>>>> people
> > >>>>>>>> >> who
> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel,
> a
> > >>>>>>>> lot of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which
> leaves
> > >>>>>>>> no public
> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the
> > Flink
> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are
> good
> > >>>>>>>> starting
> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In
> the
> > >>>>>>>> worst
> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are
> right
> > >>>>>>>> now.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> > >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results
> > are
> > >>>>>>>> not
> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to
> Slack
> > >>>>>>>> content
> > >>>>>>>> >> unless
> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space
> has
> > >>>>>>>> progressed
> > >>>>>>>> >> and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
> > >>>>>>>> users. There
> > >>>>>>>> >> are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> > >>>>>>>> >> see
> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
> > >>>>>>>> well-known
> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That
> can
> > >>>>>>>> cause a
> > >>>>>>>> >> lot
> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
> > establish
> > >>>>>>>> a set of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> > >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job.
> IMO
> > >>>>>>>> it works
> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but
> > it's
> > >>>>>>>> not
> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine,
> as
> > >>>>>>>> long as
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > result
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
> JIRA/mailing
> > >>>>>>>> list/design
> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
> > >>>>>>>> questions over,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a
> > link
> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
> space/channel
> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
> > channels
> > >>>>>>>> for the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
> example,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit
> our
> > >>>>>>>> use case
> > >>>>>>>> >> much
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> > >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink
> slack
> > >>>>>>>> workspace
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which
> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
> > >>>>>>>> questions about
> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
> > >>>>>>>> find a
> > >>>>>>>> >> recent
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
> > >>>>>>>> >> communication
> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite
> open
> > >>>>>>>> to having
> > >>>>>>>> >> such
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well
> for
> > >>>>>>>> many
> > >>>>>>>> >> projects
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
> > during
> > >>>>>>>> the past
> > >>>>>>>> >> 4
> > >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and
> > PMC
> > >>>>>>>> members,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
> > >>>>>>>> That also
> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
> > >>>>>>>> discussion.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
> workspace,
> > >>>>>>>> here we are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace.
> > And
> > >>>>>>>> instead
> > >>>>>>>> >> of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a
> > Slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
> previous
> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
> > >>>>>>>> overlooked
> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292
> >
> > >>>>>>>> the ASF
> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
> > service.
> > >>>>>>>> If anyone
> > >>>>>>>> >> > can
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists,
> > JIRA
> > >>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the
> slack
> > >>>>>>>> channel
> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
> > >>>>>>>> committer. This
> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> > >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over
> > the
> > >>>>>>>> years and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > was
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on
> it.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > project
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to
> the
> > >>>>>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>>> >> list.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
> > >>>>>>>> surprised
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love
> to
> > >>>>>>>> use Slack.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
> > >>>>>>>> communities
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
> > >>>>>>>> people for
> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A
> but
> > >>>>>>>> also a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
> > >>>>>>>> have more
> > >>>>>>>> >> social
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles,
> > and
> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and
> I
> > >>>>>>>> can help
> > >>>>>>>> >> set
> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
> > Apache
> > >>>>>>>> Flink
> > >>>>>>>> >> slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
> > >>>>>>>> communication
> > >>>>>>>> >> > through
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real
> > time
> > >>>>>>>> >> computing,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > should
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
> > >>>>>>>> especially
> > >>>>>>>> >> for
> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
> > >>>>>>>> contributors
> > >>>>>>>> >> from
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
> > >>>>>>>> good to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
> maintained
> > >>>>>>>> by the
> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink
> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are
> less
> > >>>>>>>> likely
> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
> > >>>>>>>> transmissions
> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
> extension
> > >>>>>>>> rather
> > >>>>>>>> >> than a
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
> members
> > >>>>>>>> should
> > >>>>>>>> >> still
> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
> > >>>>>>>> lists. That
> > >>>>>>>> >> means:
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
> > >>>>>>>> opinions
> > >>>>>>>> >> should
> > >>>>>>>> >> > be
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
> > >>>>>>>> according to
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
> > >>>>>>>> questions on
> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow
> long)
> > >>>>>>>> should be
> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack
> for a
> > >>>>>>>> real time
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged
> need
> > >>>>>>>> to be
> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
> > >>>>>>>> contributors are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
> > >>>>>>>> only when
> > >>>>>>>> >> all
> > >>>>>>>> >> > the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that
> people
> > >>>>>>>> should not
> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
> > >>>>>>>> among them.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1].
> As
> > >>>>>>>> a first
> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things
> back
> > >>>>>>>> to the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
> reflected
> > >>>>>>>> back to
> > >>>>>>>> >> the
> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
> projects
> > >>>>>>>> (Apache
> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
> > >>>>>>>> would need
> > >>>>>>>> >> an
> > >>>>>>>> >> > official
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
> before
> > >>>>>>>> we get to
> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> > >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> > >>>>>>>> >> >
> > >>>>>>>> >>
> > >>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> > >> https://github.com/knaufk
> > >>
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>]

Hi,

I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best
experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use
Slack.

Best regards,

Martijn

On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However,
> unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
> leveraged easily.
>
> Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack
> cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own slack
> workspace.
>
> Best
> Yun Tang
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>
> Hi all,
>
> Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid
> community. [1]
>
> > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users
> without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel.
> ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace
> to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
>
> > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
> community
> members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
> single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
> including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
> member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack
> of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
>
> > There is a workaround in place (
> https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an
> email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
> channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry,
> and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
> issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
> wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
>
> Best,
> Jingsong
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
> >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> >>
> >
> > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about
> > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
> easier
> > to find.
> >
> > Thank you~
> >
> > Xintong Song
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
> >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> >>
> >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
> >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and
> search
> >> is easier.
> >>
> >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
> >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
> >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on
> >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> >>>
> >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
> >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and
> keeping
> >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots,
> etc.
> >>>
> >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when
> >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
> >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective,
> >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> >>>
> >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
> >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and
> easy to
> >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm
> not
> >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are
> not
> >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you~
> >>>
> >>> Xintong Song
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
> >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
> >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
> definitely see
> >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
> >>>> intimidated.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This
> >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
> discussion
> >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is
> easier
> >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense
> to
> >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant
> than a
> >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
> >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it
> on an
> >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> >>>>
> >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
> >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have
> more
> >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
> >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for
> Slack,
> >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
> >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Konstantin
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
> >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
> >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
> channel of
> >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could
> also
> >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked
> questions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
> >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
> >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not
> want
> >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their
> mailbox
> >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
> setting it
> >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing
> lists and
> >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
> >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It
> might
> >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter
> would
> >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
> actually
> >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Timo
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
> >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
> >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can
> reach out
> >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a
> paid
> >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me
> about
> >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
> >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
> >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
> that
> >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution,
> but it'll
> >>>>>> work.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
> >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> >>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
> Slack,
> >>>>>>>> you can
> >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
> >>>>>>>> committer.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
> >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of
> using
> >>>>>>>> the ASF
> >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever,
> >>>>>>>> and quite
> >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that
> we
> >>>>>>>> could
> >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort
> into
> >>>>>>>> it, on a
> >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
> >>>>>>>> developer
> >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
> >>>>>>>> "Getting
> >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
> >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
> >>>>>>>> communication, but
> >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to
> >>>>>>>> DMs)
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find
> some
> >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing
> tool.
> >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
> >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
> >>>>>>>> advanced
> >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
> >>>>>>>> find that
> >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
> >>>>>>>> suggest
> >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
> >>>>>>>> important
> >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we
> >>>>>>>> get the
> >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for
> users
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
> >>>>>>>> developers,
> >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for
> >>>>>>>> dev
> >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
> >>>>>>>> MLs.
> >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
> >>>>>>>> what people
> >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I
> think
> >>>>>>>> that also
> >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
> >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
> >>>>>>>> conduct.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern
> >>>>>>>> is that, we
> >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
> >>>>>>>> different users,
> >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
> >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
> >>>>>>>> archivability and
> >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
> >>>>>>>> none of them
> >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
> >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
> >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
> >>>>>>>> helpers with
> >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
> calls,
> >>>>>>>> etc.
> >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
> >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
> >>>>>>>> MLs are
> >>>>>>>> >> now
> >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
> >>>>>>>> into the
> >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
> >>>>>>>> initiate
> >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
> >>>>>>>> community.
> >>>>>>>> >> We
> >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less,
> >>>>>>>> I didn't
> >>>>>>>> >> do
> >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
> >>>>>>>> really
> >>>>>>>> >> excited
> >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
> >>>>>>>> users than
> >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
> sharing
> >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations
> >>>>>>>> and solving
> >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
> >>>>>>>> proactively
> >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
> >>>>>>>> active compared
> >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
> >>>>>>>> interaction
> >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
> >>>>>>>> asked &
> >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit
> of a
> >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
> >>>>>>>> bring such
> >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
> >>>>>>>> from the
> >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David.
> >>>>>>>> I think
> >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
> >>>>>>>> slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
> >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
> >>>>>>>> back and
> >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack,
> to
> >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
> >>>>>>>> list and
> >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to
> do).
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
> >>>>>>>> result I get a
> >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do
> it
> >>>>>>>> on a
> >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
> >>>>>>>> overflow
> >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
> >>>>>>>> expertise
> >>>>>>>> >> takes
> >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
> collective
> >>>>>>>> energy
> >>>>>>>> >> to do
> >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would
> >>>>>>>> be a good
> >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
> >>>>>>>> request help
> >>>>>>>> >> from
> >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
> >>>>>>>> existing
> >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
> >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
> >>>>>>>> what's going
> >>>>>>>> >> on.
> >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
> >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> >>>>>>>> >> when a
> >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> circumstances,
> >>>>>>>> something
> >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
> overflow.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
> >>>>>>>> previous
> >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
> >>>>>>>> slack
> >>>>>>>> >> channel
> >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
> >>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>> >> raised
> >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
> >>>>>>>> Although it has
> >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that
> for
> >>>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>>> >> who
> >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a
> >>>>>>>> lot of
> >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves
> >>>>>>>> no public
> >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the
> Flink
> >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
> >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
> >>>>>>>> starting
> >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
> >>>>>>>> worst
> >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right
> >>>>>>>> now.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results
> are
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
> >>>>>>>> content
> >>>>>>>> >> unless
> >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
> >>>>>>>> progressed
> >>>>>>>> >> and
> >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
> >>>>>>>> users. There
> >>>>>>>> >> are
> >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
> >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> >>>>>>>> >> see
> >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
> >>>>>>>> well-known
> >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
> >>>>>>>> cause a
> >>>>>>>> >> lot
> >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
> establish
> >>>>>>>> a set of
> >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO
> >>>>>>>> it works
> >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but
> it's
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
> >>>>>>>> long as
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > result
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
> >>>>>>>> list/design
> >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
> >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
> >>>>>>>> questions over,
> >>>>>>>> >> > and
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a
> link
> >>>>>>>> to the
> >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
> >>>>>>>> for the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
> channels
> >>>>>>>> for the
> >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
> >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
> >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our
> >>>>>>>> use case
> >>>>>>>> >> much
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
> >>>>>>>> workspace
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
> >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which
> >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
> >>>>>>>> questions about
> >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
> >>>>>>>> find a
> >>>>>>>> >> recent
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
> >>>>>>>> >> communication
> >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open
> >>>>>>>> to having
> >>>>>>>> >> such
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
> >>>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>>> >> projects
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
> during
> >>>>>>>> the past
> >>>>>>>> >> 4
> >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and
> PMC
> >>>>>>>> members,
> >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
> >>>>>>>> That also
> >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
> >>>>>>>> discussion.
> >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
> >>>>>>>> here we are
> >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace.
> And
> >>>>>>>> instead
> >>>>>>>> >> of
> >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a
> Slack
> >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous
> >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
> >>>>>>>> overlooked
> >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
> >>>>>>>> the ASF
> >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
> >>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
> service.
> >>>>>>>> If anyone
> >>>>>>>> >> > can
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists,
> JIRA
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
> >>>>>>>> channel
> >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
> >>>>>>>> committer. This
> >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
> >>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
> >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over
> the
> >>>>>>>> years and
> >>>>>>>> >> > was
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
> >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
> >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > project
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
> >>>>>>>> mailing
> >>>>>>>> >> list.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
> >>>>>>>> surprised
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
> >>>>>>>> use Slack.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
> >>>>>>>> communities
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
> >>>>>>>> people for
> >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
> >>>>>>>> also a
> >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
> >>>>>>>> have more
> >>>>>>>> >> social
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles,
> and
> >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I
> >>>>>>>> can help
> >>>>>>>> >> set
> >>>>>>>> >> > up the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
> Apache
> >>>>>>>> Flink
> >>>>>>>> >> slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
> >>>>>>>> communication
> >>>>>>>> >> > through
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real
> time
> >>>>>>>> >> computing,
> >>>>>>>> >> > should
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
> >>>>>>>> especially
> >>>>>>>> >> for
> >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
> >>>>>>>> contributors
> >>>>>>>> >> from
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
> >>>>>>>> good to
> >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
> >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
> >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained
> >>>>>>>> by the
> >>>>>>>> >> Flink
> >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
> >>>>>>>> likely
> >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
> >>>>>>>> transmissions
> >>>>>>>> >> > that help
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
> >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
> >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
> >>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>> >> than a
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
> >>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>> >> still
> >>>>>>>> >> > be
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
> >>>>>>>> lists. That
> >>>>>>>> >> means:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
> >>>>>>>> opinions
> >>>>>>>> >> should
> >>>>>>>> >> > be
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
> >>>>>>>> according to
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
> >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
> >>>>>>>> questions on
> >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
> >>>>>>>> should be
> >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
> >>>>>>>> real time
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need
> >>>>>>>> to be
> >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
> >>>>>>>> contributors are
> >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
> >>>>>>>> only when
> >>>>>>>> >> all
> >>>>>>>> >> > the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
> >>>>>>>> should not
> >>>>>>>> >> > expect
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
> >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
> >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
> >>>>>>>> among them.
> >>>>>>>> >> > There are
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As
> >>>>>>>> a first
> >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back
> >>>>>>>> to the
> >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
> >>>>>>>> back to
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
> >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
> >>>>>>>> (Apache
> >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
> >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
> >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
> >>>>>>>> would need
> >>>>>>>> >> an
> >>>>>>>> >> > official
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before
> >>>>>>>> we get to
> >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> >> https://github.com/knaufk
> >>
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>]

Hi,

I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best
experience for those in the community who want to use Slack.
More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use
Slack.

Best regards,

Martijn

On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <my...@live.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However,
> unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be
> leveraged easily.
>
> Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack
> cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own slack
> workspace.
>
> Best
> Yun Tang
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
> *To:* Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>
> Hi all,
>
> Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid
> community. [1]
>
> > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users
> without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel.
> ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace
> to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.
>
> > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new
> community
> members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
> single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
> including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
> member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack
> of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.
>
> > There is a workaround in place (
> https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an
> email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
> channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry,
> and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
> issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
> wishes to display their email address in a public forum.
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5
>
> Best,
> Jingsong
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
> >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> >>
> >
> > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about
> > making communication more efficient, rather than making information
> easier
> > to find.
> >
> > Thank you~
> >
> > Xintong Song
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
> >> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
> >>
> >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
> >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and
> search
> >> is easier.
> >>
> >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
> >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
> >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on
> >>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
> >>>
> >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
> >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and
> keeping
> >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots,
> etc.
> >>>
> >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when
> >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
> >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective,
> >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
> >>>
> >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
> >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and
> easy to
> >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm
> not
> >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are
> not
> >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you~
> >>>
> >>> Xintong Song
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://asktug.com/
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
> >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
> >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I
> definitely see
> >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
> >>>> intimidated.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This
> >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful
> discussion
> >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is
> easier
> >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense
> to
> >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant
> than a
> >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
> >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it
> on an
> >>>> ASF machine. [1]
> >>>>
> >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
> >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have
> more
> >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
> >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for
> Slack,
> >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
> >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Konstantin
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
> >>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
> >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
> >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk
> channel of
> >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could
> also
> >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked
> questions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
> >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
> >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not
> want
> >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their
> mailbox
> >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company
> setting it
> >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing
> lists and
> >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
> >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It
> might
> >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter
> would
> >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is
> actually
> >>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Timo
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
> >>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
> >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can
> reach out
> >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a
> paid
> >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me
> about
> >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
> >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
> >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
> >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
> >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
> that
> >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution,
> but it'll
> >>>>>> work.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
> >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
> >>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of
> Slack,
> >>>>>>>> you can
> >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
> >>>>>>>> committer.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
> >>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of
> using
> >>>>>>>> the ASF
> >>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
> >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever,
> >>>>>>>> and quite
> >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that
> we
> >>>>>>>> could
> >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort
> into
> >>>>>>>> it, on a
> >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
> >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
> >>>>>>>> developer
> >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
> >>>>>>>> "Getting
> >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
> >>>>>>>> truth tools"
> >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
> >>>>>>>> communication, but
> >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to
> >>>>>>>> DMs)
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
> >>>>>>>> google-indexable.
> >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find
> some
> >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing
> tool.
> >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
> >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
> >>>>>>>> advanced
> >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
> >>>>>>>> find that
> >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
> >>>>>>>> suggest
> >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
> >>>>>>>> important
> >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we
> >>>>>>>> get the
> >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for
> users
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
> >>>>>>>> developers,
> >>>>>>>> > indexing).
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
> >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for
> >>>>>>>> dev
> >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
> >>>>>>>> MLs.
> >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
> >>>>>>>> what people
> >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
> >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I
> think
> >>>>>>>> that also
> >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
> >>>>>>>> no-reply as a
> >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
> >>>>>>>> conduct.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern
> >>>>>>>> is that, we
> >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
> >>>>>>>> different users,
> >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
> >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
> >>>>>>>> archivability and
> >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
> >>>>>>>> none of them
> >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
> >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
> >>>>>>>> efficient? By
> >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
> >>>>>>>> helpers with
> >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video
> calls,
> >>>>>>>> etc.
> >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
> >>>>>>>> mentioned.)
> >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
> >>>>>>>> MLs are
> >>>>>>>> >> now
> >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
> >>>>>>>> into the
> >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
> >>>>>>>> initiate
> >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
> >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
> >>>>>>>> community.
> >>>>>>>> >> We
> >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less,
> >>>>>>>> I didn't
> >>>>>>>> >> do
> >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
> >>>>>>>> really
> >>>>>>>> >> excited
> >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
> >>>>>>>> users than
> >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other,
> sharing
> >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations
> >>>>>>>> and solving
> >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
> >>>>>>>> proactively
> >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
> >>>>>>>> active compared
> >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
> >>>>>>>> interaction
> >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
> >>>>>>>> asked &
> >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit
> of a
> >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
> >>>>>>>> bring such
> >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
> >>>>>>>> from the
> >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David.
> >>>>>>>> I think
> >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
> >>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
> >>>>>>>> slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
> >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
> >>>>>>>> back and
> >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack,
> to
> >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
> >>>>>>>> list and
> >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to
> do).
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
> >>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
> >>>>>>>> result I get a
> >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do
> it
> >>>>>>>> on a
> >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
> >>>>>>>> overflow
> >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
> >>>>>>>> expertise
> >>>>>>>> >> takes
> >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
> collective
> >>>>>>>> energy
> >>>>>>>> >> to do
> >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would
> >>>>>>>> be a good
> >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
> >>>>>>>> request help
> >>>>>>>> >> from
> >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
> >>>>>>>> existing
> >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
> >>>>>>>> interesting cases
> >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
> >>>>>>>> what's going
> >>>>>>>> >> on.
> >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
> >>>>>>>> unusual, or
> >>>>>>>> >> when a
> >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
> circumstances,
> >>>>>>>> something
> >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
> overflow.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > David
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
> >>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
> >>>>>>>> previous
> >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
> >>>>>>>> slack
> >>>>>>>> >> channel
> >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
> >>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>> >> raised
> >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
> >>>>>>>> Although it has
> >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that
> for
> >>>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>>> >> who
> >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a
> >>>>>>>> lot of
> >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves
> >>>>>>>> no public
> >>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the
> Flink
> >>>>>>>> PMC, some
> >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
> >>>>>>>> suggestions of
> >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
> >>>>>>>> starting
> >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
> >>>>>>>> worst
> >>>>>>>> >> case, we
> >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right
> >>>>>>>> now.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> >>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results
> are
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> >> indexed
> >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
> >>>>>>>> content
> >>>>>>>> >> unless
> >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
> >>>>>>>> progressed
> >>>>>>>> >> and
> >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
> >>>>>>>> users. There
> >>>>>>>> >> are
> >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
> >>>>>>>> [1]. I also
> >>>>>>>> >> see
> >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
> >>>>>>>> well-known
> >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
> >>>>>>>> cause a
> >>>>>>>> >> lot
> >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
> establish
> >>>>>>>> a set of
> >>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
> >>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO
> >>>>>>>> it works
> >>>>>>>> >> > great as
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but
> it's
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> >> > searchable
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
> >>>>>>>> long as
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > result
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
> >>>>>>>> list/design
> >>>>>>>> >> > doc.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
> >>>>>>>> achieve. In
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
> >>>>>>>> questions over,
> >>>>>>>> >> > and
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a
> link
> >>>>>>>> to the
> >>>>>>>> >> > previous
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
> >>>>>>>> for the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
> channels
> >>>>>>>> for the
> >>>>>>>> >> > users.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
> >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
> >>>>>>>> oldest/newest
> >>>>>>>> >> > at top)
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our
> >>>>>>>> use case
> >>>>>>>> >> much
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
> >>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
> >>>>>>>> workspace
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
> >>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
> >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which
> >>>>>>>> are 4 years
> >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
> >>>>>>>> questions about
> >>>>>>>> >> > whether
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
> >>>>>>>> find a
> >>>>>>>> >> recent
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
> >>>>>>>> >> communication
> >>>>>>>> >> > channels
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open
> >>>>>>>> to having
> >>>>>>>> >> such
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
> >>>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>>> >> projects
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change
> during
> >>>>>>>> the past
> >>>>>>>> >> 4
> >>>>>>>> >> > years.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and
> PMC
> >>>>>>>> members,
> >>>>>>>> >> > and even
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
> >>>>>>>> That also
> >>>>>>>> >> > means more
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
> >>>>>>>> discussion.
> >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
> >>>>>>>> here we are
> >>>>>>>> >> > proposing
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace.
> And
> >>>>>>>> instead
> >>>>>>>> >> of
> >>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a
> Slack
> >>>>>>>> >> Workspace
> >>>>>>>> >> > as an
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous
> >>>>>>>> -1 [1].
> >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
> >>>>>>>> overlooked
> >>>>>>>> >> > anything,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
> >>>>>>>> the ASF
> >>>>>>>> >> Slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > isn't
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
> >>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>> >> > questionable
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
> service.
> >>>>>>>> If anyone
> >>>>>>>> >> > can
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists,
> JIRA
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
> >>>>>>>> >> > All of
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
> >>>>>>>> channel
> >>>>>>>> >> > requires an
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
> >>>>>>>> committer. This
> >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
> >>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>> >> prefer
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
> >>>>>>>> community. I'll
> >>>>>>>> >> > forward this
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> >>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
> >>>>>>>> >> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over
> the
> >>>>>>>> years and
> >>>>>>>> >> > was
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
> >>>>>>>> invalidate the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
> >>>>>>>> anyway, but
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > project
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
> >>>>>>>> mailing
> >>>>>>>> >> list.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
> >>>>>>>> surprised
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
> >>>>>>>> use Slack.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
> >>>>>>>> communities
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
> >>>>>>>> people for
> >>>>>>>> >> > opinions
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
> >>>>>>>> also a
> >>>>>>>> >> > connection to
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
> >>>>>>>> have more
> >>>>>>>> >> social
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles,
> and
> >>>>>>>> >> > presentations
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I
> >>>>>>>> can help
> >>>>>>>> >> set
> >>>>>>>> >> > up the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> >>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an
> Apache
> >>>>>>>> Flink
> >>>>>>>> >> slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
> >>>>>>>> communication
> >>>>>>>> >> > through
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real
> time
> >>>>>>>> >> computing,
> >>>>>>>> >> > should
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
> >>>>>>>> especially
> >>>>>>>> >> for
> >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
> >>>>>>>> contributors
> >>>>>>>> >> from
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
> >>>>>>>> good to
> >>>>>>>> >> > provide a
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
> >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
> >>>>>>>> >> > propose to
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained
> >>>>>>>> by the
> >>>>>>>> >> Flink
> >>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
> >>>>>>>> likely
> >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
> >>>>>>>> transmissions
> >>>>>>>> >> > that help
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
> >>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
> >>>>>>>> >> > temporal
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
> >>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>> >> than a
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
> >>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>> >> still
> >>>>>>>> >> > be
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
> >>>>>>>> lists. That
> >>>>>>>> >> means:
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
> >>>>>>>> opinions
> >>>>>>>> >> should
> >>>>>>>> >> > be
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
> >>>>>>>> according to
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > Apache
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
> >>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
> >>>>>>>> questions on
> >>>>>>>> >> > slack.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
> >>>>>>>> should be
> >>>>>>>> >> > posted on
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
> >>>>>>>> real time
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need
> >>>>>>>> to be
> >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
> >>>>>>>> contributors are
> >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
> >>>>>>>> only when
> >>>>>>>> >> all
> >>>>>>>> >> > the
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
> >>>>>>>> should not
> >>>>>>>> >> > expect
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
> >>>>>>>> mentioned with is
> >>>>>>>> >> > its lack
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
> >>>>>>>> among them.
> >>>>>>>> >> > There are
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As
> >>>>>>>> a first
> >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back
> >>>>>>>> to the
> >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
> >>>>>>>> back to
> >>>>>>>> >> the
> >>>>>>>> >> > mailing
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
> >>>>>>>> >> searchability.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
> >>>>>>>> (Apache
> >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
> >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
> >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
> >>>>>>>> would need
> >>>>>>>> >> an
> >>>>>>>> >> > official
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before
> >>>>>>>> we get to
> >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
> >>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> >>>> https://github.com/knaufk
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> >> https://github.com/knaufk
> >>
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Yun Tang <my...@live.com>]

Hi all,

I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be leveraged easily.

Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own slack workspace.

Best
Yun Tang
________________________________
From: Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
To: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
Cc: dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

Hi all,

Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid
community. [1]

> As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users
without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel.
ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace
to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.

> Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new community
members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack
of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.

> There is a workaround in place (
https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an
email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry,
and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
wishes to display their email address in a public forum.

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5

Best,
Jingsong

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
>> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
>> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>
>
> Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about
> making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier
> to find.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
>> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>>
>> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
>> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search
>> is easier.
>>
>> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
>> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
>> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>
>>
>>
>> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
>>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on
>>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
>>>
>>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping
>>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.
>>>
>>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when
>>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
>>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective,
>>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>>>
>>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
>>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
>>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
>>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
>>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>>>
>>> Thank you~
>>>
>>> Xintong Song
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
>>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
>>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
>>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>>>> intimidated.
>>>>
>>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This
>>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion
>>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier
>>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to
>>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a
>>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
>>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an
>>>> ASF machine. [1]
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more
>>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
>>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
>>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Konstantin
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
>>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want
>>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Timo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
>>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that
>>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>>>>> committer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
>>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever,
>>>>>>>> and quite
>>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>>>>> it, on a
>>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>>>>> "Getting
>>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
>>>>>>>> truth tools"
>>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>>>>> communication, but
>>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to
>>>>>>>> DMs)
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
>>>>>>>> find that
>>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>>>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we
>>>>>>>> get the
>>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>>>>>>>> developers,
>>>>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for
>>>>>>>> dev
>>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
>>>>>>>> MLs.
>>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
>>>>>>>> what people
>>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>>>>> that also
>>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
>>>>>>>> conduct.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern
>>>>>>>> is that, we
>>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>>>>>>>> different users,
>>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>>>>> archivability and
>>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
>>>>>>>> none of them
>>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>>>>>>> efficient? By
>>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>>>>> helpers with
>>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
>>>>>>>> MLs are
>>>>>>>> >> now
>>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>>>>>>> initiate
>>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less,
>>>>>>>> I didn't
>>>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> >> excited
>>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>>>>> users than
>>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations
>>>>>>>> and solving
>>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
>>>>>>>> active compared
>>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
>>>>>>>> asked &
>>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
>>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David.
>>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
>>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>>>>> back and
>>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>>>>> list and
>>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
>>>>>>>> result I get a
>>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it
>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
>>>>>>>> overflow
>>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>>>>> expertise
>>>>>>>> >> takes
>>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>>> >> to do
>>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would
>>>>>>>> be a good
>>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>>>>>>>> request help
>>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
>>>>>>>> existing
>>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>>>>>>>> interesting cases
>>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>>>>>>>> what's going
>>>>>>>> >> on.
>>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>>>>>>>> unusual, or
>>>>>>>> >> when a
>>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
>>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>>> >> channel
>>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>> >> raised
>>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>>>>>>>> Although it has
>>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> >> who
>>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a
>>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves
>>>>>>>> no public
>>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
>>>>>>>> worst
>>>>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right
>>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>> >> unless
>>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>>>>> progressed
>>>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>>>>>>>> users. There
>>>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
>>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>>>>>>>> >> see
>>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>>>>>>>> well-known
>>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>>>>> cause a
>>>>>>>> >> lot
>>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish
>>>>>>>> a set of
>>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO
>>>>>>>> it works
>>>>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>>>>> long as
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > result
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>>>>> list/design
>>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>>>>> questions over,
>>>>>>>> >> > and
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our
>>>>>>>> use case
>>>>>>>> >> much
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which
>>>>>>>> are 4 years
>>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>>>>>>>> questions about
>>>>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
>>>>>>>> find a
>>>>>>>> >> recent
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>>>>> >> communication
>>>>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open
>>>>>>>> to having
>>>>>>>> >> such
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> >> projects
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>>> >> 4
>>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>>>>> members,
>>>>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
>>>>>>>> That also
>>>>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
>>>>>>>> here we are
>>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous
>>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>>>>> overlooked
>>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service.
>>>>>>>> If anyone
>>>>>>>> >> > can
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>>>>>>>> committer. This
>>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>>>>>>>> community. I'll
>>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>>>>> years and
>>>>>>>> >> > was
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>>>>>>> anyway, but
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > project
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> >> list.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
>>>>>>>> use Slack.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>>>>>>>> communities
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>>>>> people for
>>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
>>>>>>>> also a
>>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
>>>>>>>> have more
>>>>>>>> >> social
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I
>>>>>>>> can help
>>>>>>>> >> set
>>>>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>>>> >> slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>>>>> communication
>>>>>>>> >> > through
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>>>>> >> > should
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>>>>> contributors
>>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
>>>>>>>> good to
>>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
>>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained
>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>>>>> transmissions
>>>>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> than a
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> >> still
>>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. That
>>>>>>>> >> means:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>>>>> according to
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
>>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>>>>> questions on
>>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>>>>> real time
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>>>>>>> contributors are
>>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
>>>>>>>> only when
>>>>>>>> >> all
>>>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>>>>> should not
>>>>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>>>>>>>> mentioned with is
>>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
>>>>>>>> among them.
>>>>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As
>>>>>>>> a first
>>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>>>>> (Apache
>>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
>>>>>>>> would need
>>>>>>>> >> an
>>>>>>>> >> > official
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before
>>>>>>>> we get to
>>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Yun Tang <my...@live.com>]

Hi all,

I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be leveraged easily.

Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own slack workspace.

Best
Yun Tang
________________________________
From: Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49
To: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
Cc: dev <de...@flink.apache.org>; user <us...@flink.apache.org>
Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

Hi all,

Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid
community. [1]

> As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users
without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel.
ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace
to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.

> Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new community
members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack
of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.

> There is a workaround in place (
https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an
email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry,
and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
wishes to display their email address in a public forum.

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5

Best,
Jingsong

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
>> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
>> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>
>
> Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about
> making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier
> to find.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
>> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>>
>> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
>> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search
>> is easier.
>>
>> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
>> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
>> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>
>>
>>
>> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
>>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on
>>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
>>>
>>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping
>>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.
>>>
>>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when
>>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
>>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective,
>>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>>>
>>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
>>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
>>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
>>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
>>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>>>
>>> Thank you~
>>>
>>> Xintong Song
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
>>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
>>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
>>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>>>> intimidated.
>>>>
>>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This
>>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion
>>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier
>>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to
>>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a
>>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
>>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an
>>>> ASF machine. [1]
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more
>>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
>>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
>>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Konstantin
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
>>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want
>>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Timo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
>>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that
>>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>>>>> committer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
>>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever,
>>>>>>>> and quite
>>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>>>>> it, on a
>>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>>>>> "Getting
>>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
>>>>>>>> truth tools"
>>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>>>>> communication, but
>>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to
>>>>>>>> DMs)
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
>>>>>>>> find that
>>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>>>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we
>>>>>>>> get the
>>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>>>>>>>> developers,
>>>>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for
>>>>>>>> dev
>>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
>>>>>>>> MLs.
>>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
>>>>>>>> what people
>>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>>>>> that also
>>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
>>>>>>>> conduct.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern
>>>>>>>> is that, we
>>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>>>>>>>> different users,
>>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>>>>> archivability and
>>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
>>>>>>>> none of them
>>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>>>>>>> efficient? By
>>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>>>>> helpers with
>>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
>>>>>>>> MLs are
>>>>>>>> >> now
>>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>>>>>>> initiate
>>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less,
>>>>>>>> I didn't
>>>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> >> excited
>>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>>>>> users than
>>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations
>>>>>>>> and solving
>>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
>>>>>>>> active compared
>>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
>>>>>>>> asked &
>>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
>>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David.
>>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
>>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>>>>> back and
>>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>>>>> list and
>>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
>>>>>>>> result I get a
>>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it
>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
>>>>>>>> overflow
>>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>>>>> expertise
>>>>>>>> >> takes
>>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>>> >> to do
>>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would
>>>>>>>> be a good
>>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>>>>>>>> request help
>>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
>>>>>>>> existing
>>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>>>>>>>> interesting cases
>>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>>>>>>>> what's going
>>>>>>>> >> on.
>>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>>>>>>>> unusual, or
>>>>>>>> >> when a
>>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
>>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>>> >> channel
>>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>> >> raised
>>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>>>>>>>> Although it has
>>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> >> who
>>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a
>>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves
>>>>>>>> no public
>>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
>>>>>>>> worst
>>>>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right
>>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>> >> unless
>>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>>>>> progressed
>>>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>>>>>>>> users. There
>>>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
>>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>>>>>>>> >> see
>>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>>>>>>>> well-known
>>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>>>>> cause a
>>>>>>>> >> lot
>>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish
>>>>>>>> a set of
>>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO
>>>>>>>> it works
>>>>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>>>>> long as
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > result
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>>>>> list/design
>>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>>>>> questions over,
>>>>>>>> >> > and
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our
>>>>>>>> use case
>>>>>>>> >> much
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which
>>>>>>>> are 4 years
>>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>>>>>>>> questions about
>>>>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
>>>>>>>> find a
>>>>>>>> >> recent
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>>>>> >> communication
>>>>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open
>>>>>>>> to having
>>>>>>>> >> such
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> >> projects
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>>> >> 4
>>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>>>>> members,
>>>>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
>>>>>>>> That also
>>>>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
>>>>>>>> here we are
>>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous
>>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>>>>> overlooked
>>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service.
>>>>>>>> If anyone
>>>>>>>> >> > can
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>>>>>>>> committer. This
>>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>>>>>>>> community. I'll
>>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>>>>> years and
>>>>>>>> >> > was
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>>>>>>> anyway, but
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > project
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> >> list.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
>>>>>>>> use Slack.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>>>>>>>> communities
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>>>>> people for
>>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
>>>>>>>> also a
>>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
>>>>>>>> have more
>>>>>>>> >> social
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I
>>>>>>>> can help
>>>>>>>> >> set
>>>>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>>>> >> slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>>>>> communication
>>>>>>>> >> > through
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>>>>> >> > should
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>>>>> contributors
>>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
>>>>>>>> good to
>>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
>>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained
>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>>>>> transmissions
>>>>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> than a
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> >> still
>>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. That
>>>>>>>> >> means:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>>>>> according to
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
>>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>>>>> questions on
>>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>>>>> real time
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>>>>>>> contributors are
>>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
>>>>>>>> only when
>>>>>>>> >> all
>>>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>>>>> should not
>>>>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>>>>>>>> mentioned with is
>>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
>>>>>>>> among them.
>>>>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As
>>>>>>>> a first
>>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>>>>> (Apache
>>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
>>>>>>>> would need
>>>>>>>> >> an
>>>>>>>> >> > official
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before
>>>>>>>> we get to
>>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid
community. [1]

> As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users
without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel.
ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace
to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.

> Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new community
members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack
of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.

> There is a workaround in place (
https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an
email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry,
and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
wishes to display their email address in a public forum.

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5

Best,
Jingsong

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
>> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
>> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>
>
> Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about
> making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier
> to find.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
>> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>>
>> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
>> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search
>> is easier.
>>
>> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
>> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
>> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>
>>
>>
>> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
>>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on
>>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
>>>
>>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping
>>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.
>>>
>>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when
>>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
>>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective,
>>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>>>
>>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
>>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
>>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
>>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
>>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>>>
>>> Thank you~
>>>
>>> Xintong Song
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
>>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
>>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
>>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>>>> intimidated.
>>>>
>>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This
>>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion
>>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier
>>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to
>>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a
>>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
>>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an
>>>> ASF machine. [1]
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more
>>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
>>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
>>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Konstantin
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
>>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want
>>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Timo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
>>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that
>>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>>>>> committer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
>>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever,
>>>>>>>> and quite
>>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>>>>> it, on a
>>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>>>>> "Getting
>>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
>>>>>>>> truth tools"
>>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>>>>> communication, but
>>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to
>>>>>>>> DMs)
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
>>>>>>>> find that
>>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>>>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we
>>>>>>>> get the
>>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>>>>>>>> developers,
>>>>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for
>>>>>>>> dev
>>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
>>>>>>>> MLs.
>>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
>>>>>>>> what people
>>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>>>>> that also
>>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
>>>>>>>> conduct.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern
>>>>>>>> is that, we
>>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>>>>>>>> different users,
>>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>>>>> archivability and
>>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
>>>>>>>> none of them
>>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>>>>>>> efficient? By
>>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>>>>> helpers with
>>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
>>>>>>>> MLs are
>>>>>>>> >> now
>>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>>>>>>> initiate
>>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less,
>>>>>>>> I didn't
>>>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> >> excited
>>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>>>>> users than
>>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations
>>>>>>>> and solving
>>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
>>>>>>>> active compared
>>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
>>>>>>>> asked &
>>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
>>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David.
>>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
>>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>>>>> back and
>>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>>>>> list and
>>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
>>>>>>>> result I get a
>>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it
>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
>>>>>>>> overflow
>>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>>>>> expertise
>>>>>>>> >> takes
>>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>>> >> to do
>>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would
>>>>>>>> be a good
>>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>>>>>>>> request help
>>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
>>>>>>>> existing
>>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>>>>>>>> interesting cases
>>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>>>>>>>> what's going
>>>>>>>> >> on.
>>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>>>>>>>> unusual, or
>>>>>>>> >> when a
>>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
>>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>>> >> channel
>>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>> >> raised
>>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>>>>>>>> Although it has
>>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> >> who
>>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a
>>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves
>>>>>>>> no public
>>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
>>>>>>>> worst
>>>>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right
>>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>> >> unless
>>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>>>>> progressed
>>>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>>>>>>>> users. There
>>>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
>>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>>>>>>>> >> see
>>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>>>>>>>> well-known
>>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>>>>> cause a
>>>>>>>> >> lot
>>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish
>>>>>>>> a set of
>>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO
>>>>>>>> it works
>>>>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>>>>> long as
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > result
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>>>>> list/design
>>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>>>>> questions over,
>>>>>>>> >> > and
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our
>>>>>>>> use case
>>>>>>>> >> much
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which
>>>>>>>> are 4 years
>>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>>>>>>>> questions about
>>>>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
>>>>>>>> find a
>>>>>>>> >> recent
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>>>>> >> communication
>>>>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open
>>>>>>>> to having
>>>>>>>> >> such
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> >> projects
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>>> >> 4
>>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>>>>> members,
>>>>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
>>>>>>>> That also
>>>>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
>>>>>>>> here we are
>>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous
>>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>>>>> overlooked
>>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service.
>>>>>>>> If anyone
>>>>>>>> >> > can
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>>>>>>>> committer. This
>>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>>>>>>>> community. I'll
>>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>>>>> years and
>>>>>>>> >> > was
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>>>>>>> anyway, but
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > project
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> >> list.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
>>>>>>>> use Slack.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>>>>>>>> communities
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>>>>> people for
>>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
>>>>>>>> also a
>>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
>>>>>>>> have more
>>>>>>>> >> social
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I
>>>>>>>> can help
>>>>>>>> >> set
>>>>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>>>> >> slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>>>>> communication
>>>>>>>> >> > through
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>>>>> >> > should
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>>>>> contributors
>>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
>>>>>>>> good to
>>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
>>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained
>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>>>>> transmissions
>>>>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> than a
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> >> still
>>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. That
>>>>>>>> >> means:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>>>>> according to
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
>>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>>>>> questions on
>>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>>>>> real time
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>>>>>>> contributors are
>>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
>>>>>>>> only when
>>>>>>>> >> all
>>>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>>>>> should not
>>>>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>>>>>>>> mentioned with is
>>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
>>>>>>>> among them.
>>>>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As
>>>>>>>> a first
>>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>>>>> (Apache
>>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
>>>>>>>> would need
>>>>>>>> >> an
>>>>>>>> >> > official
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before
>>>>>>>> we get to
>>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid
community. [1]

> As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users
without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel.
ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace
to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers.

> Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new community
members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately,
single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members,
including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full
member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack
of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive.

> There is a workaround in place (
https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an
email to druid-user@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack
channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry,
and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy
issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor
wishes to display their email address in a public forum.

[1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5

Best,
Jingsong

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
>> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
>> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>
>
> Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about
> making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier
> to find.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
>> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>>
>> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
>> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search
>> is easier.
>>
>> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
>> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
>> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>>
>>
>>
>> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
>> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help"
>>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on
>>> revisiting in 6-12 months.
>>>
>>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping
>>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.
>>>
>>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when
>>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
>>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective,
>>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>>>
>>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
>>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
>>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
>>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
>>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>>>
>>> Thank you~
>>>
>>> Xintong Song
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
>>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
>>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
>>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>>>> intimidated.
>>>>
>>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This
>>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion
>>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier
>>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to
>>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a
>>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
>>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an
>>>> ASF machine. [1]
>>>>
>>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more
>>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
>>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
>>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Konstantin
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
>>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want
>>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Timo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
>>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that
>>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>>>>> committer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the
>>>>>>>> summary Xintong!
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever,
>>>>>>>> and quite
>>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>>>>> it, on a
>>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for
>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>>>>> "Getting
>>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
>>>>>>>> truth tools"
>>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>>>>> communication, but
>>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to
>>>>>>>> DMs)
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to
>>>>>>>> find that
>>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>>>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we
>>>>>>>> get the
>>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>>>>>>>> developers,
>>>>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for
>>>>>>>> dev
>>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
>>>>>>>> MLs.
>>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
>>>>>>>> what people
>>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>>>>> that also
>>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of
>>>>>>>> conduct.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern
>>>>>>>> is that, we
>>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>>>>>>>> different users,
>>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>>>>> archivability and
>>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
>>>>>>>> none of them
>>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>>>>>>> efficient? By
>>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>>>>> helpers with
>>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
>>>>>>>> MLs are
>>>>>>>> >> now
>>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>>>>>>> initiate
>>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less,
>>>>>>>> I didn't
>>>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> >> excited
>>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>>>>> users than
>>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations
>>>>>>>> and solving
>>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more
>>>>>>>> active compared
>>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
>>>>>>>> asked &
>>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
>>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David.
>>>>>>>> I think
>>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
>>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>>>>> back and
>>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>>>>> list and
>>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a
>>>>>>>> result I get a
>>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it
>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack
>>>>>>>> overflow
>>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>>>>> expertise
>>>>>>>> >> takes
>>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>>> >> to do
>>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would
>>>>>>>> be a good
>>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>>>>>>>> request help
>>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the
>>>>>>>> existing
>>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>>>>>>>> interesting cases
>>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>>>>>>>> what's going
>>>>>>>> >> on.
>>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>>>>>>>> unusual, or
>>>>>>>> >> when a
>>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
>>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>>> >> channel
>>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>> >> raised
>>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>>>>>>>> Although it has
>>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> >> who
>>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a
>>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves
>>>>>>>> no public
>>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
>>>>>>>> worst
>>>>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right
>>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>> >> unless
>>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>>>>> progressed
>>>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>>>>>>>> users. There
>>>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
>>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>>>>>>>> >> see
>>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>>>>>>>> well-known
>>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>>>>> cause a
>>>>>>>> >> lot
>>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish
>>>>>>>> a set of
>>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO
>>>>>>>> it works
>>>>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>>>>> long as
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > result
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>>>>> list/design
>>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>>>>> questions over,
>>>>>>>> >> > and
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our
>>>>>>>> use case
>>>>>>>> >> much
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which
>>>>>>>> are 4 years
>>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>>>>>>>> questions about
>>>>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
>>>>>>>> find a
>>>>>>>> >> recent
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>>>>> >> communication
>>>>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open
>>>>>>>> to having
>>>>>>>> >> such
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> >> projects
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>>> >> 4
>>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>>>>> members,
>>>>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
>>>>>>>> That also
>>>>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
>>>>>>>> here we are
>>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous
>>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>>>>> overlooked
>>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service.
>>>>>>>> If anyone
>>>>>>>> >> > can
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>>>>>>>> committer. This
>>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>>>>>>>> community. I'll
>>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>>>>> years and
>>>>>>>> >> > was
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>>>>>>> anyway, but
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > project
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> >> list.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
>>>>>>>> use Slack.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>>>>>>>> communities
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>>>>> people for
>>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
>>>>>>>> also a
>>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community
>>>>>>>> have more
>>>>>>>> >> social
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I
>>>>>>>> can help
>>>>>>>> >> set
>>>>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>>>> >> slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>>>>> communication
>>>>>>>> >> > through
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>>>>> >> > should
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>>>>> contributors
>>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
>>>>>>>> good to
>>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd
>>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained
>>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>>>>> transmissions
>>>>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> >> than a
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> >> still
>>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. That
>>>>>>>> >> means:
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>>>>> according to
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it
>>>>>>>> didn’t happen.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>>>>> questions on
>>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>>>>> real time
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>>>>>>> contributors are
>>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
>>>>>>>> only when
>>>>>>>> >> all
>>>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>>>>> should not
>>>>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>>>>>>>> mentioned with is
>>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
>>>>>>>> among them.
>>>>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As
>>>>>>>> a first
>>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>>>>> (Apache
>>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
>>>>>>>> would need
>>>>>>>> >> an
>>>>>>>> >> > official
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before
>>>>>>>> we get to
>>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>]

>
> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>

Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about
making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier
to find.

Thank you~

Xintong Song



On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org> wrote:

> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>
> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search
> is easier.
>
> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>
>
>
> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>
>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" pages
>> to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on revisiting
>> in 6-12 months.
>>
>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping
>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.
>>
>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when
>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective,
>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>>
>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>>
>> Thank you~
>>
>> Xintong Song
>>
>>
>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>>
>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>>> intimidated.
>>>
>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This
>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion
>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier
>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to
>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a
>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an
>>> ASF machine. [1]
>>>
>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more
>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Konstantin
>>>
>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>>
>>>
>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>>
>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want
>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>>>
>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Timo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>>>
>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that
>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>>>> work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>>>> committer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>>>>>> Xintong!
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever,
>>>>>>> and quite
>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>>>> it, on a
>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>>>> "Getting
>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
>>>>>>> truth tools"
>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>>>> communication, but
>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>>>>>>> developers,
>>>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for
>>>>>>> dev
>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
>>>>>>> MLs.
>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
>>>>>>> what people
>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>>>> that also
>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>>>>>> that, we
>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>>>>>> users,
>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>>>> archivability and
>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
>>>>>>> none of them
>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>>>>>> efficient? By
>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>>>> helpers with
>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
>>>>>>> MLs are
>>>>>>> >> now
>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>>>>>> initiate
>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> >> excited
>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>>>> users than
>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>>>>>> solving
>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>>>>>> compared
>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
>>>>>>> asked &
>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>>>> back and
>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>>>> list and
>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result
>>>>>>> I get a
>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it
>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>>>> expertise
>>>>>>> >> takes
>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>> >> to do
>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be
>>>>>>> a good
>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>>>>>>> request help
>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>>>>>>> interesting cases
>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>>>>>>> what's going
>>>>>>> >> on.
>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>>>>>>> unusual, or
>>>>>>> >> when a
>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>> >> channel
>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>> >> raised
>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>>>>>>> Although it has
>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> >> who
>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a
>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves
>>>>>>> no public
>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
>>>>>>> worst
>>>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right
>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>> >> unless
>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>>>> progressed
>>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>>>>>>> users. There
>>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>>>>>>> >> see
>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>>>>>>> well-known
>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>>>> cause a
>>>>>>> >> lot
>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish
>>>>>>> a set of
>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO
>>>>>>> it works
>>>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>>>> long as
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > result
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>>>> list/design
>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>>>> questions over,
>>>>>>> >> > and
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our
>>>>>>> use case
>>>>>>> >> much
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are
>>>>>>> 4 years
>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>>>>>>> questions about
>>>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
>>>>>>> find a
>>>>>>> >> recent
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>>>> >> communication
>>>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> >> such
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> >> projects
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>> >> 4
>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>>>> members,
>>>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
>>>>>>> That also
>>>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
>>>>>>> here we are
>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous
>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>>>> overlooked
>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service.
>>>>>>> If anyone
>>>>>>> >> > can
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>>>>>>> community. I'll
>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>>>> years and
>>>>>>> >> > was
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>>>>>> anyway, but
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > project
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> >> list.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
>>>>>>> use Slack.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>>>>>>> communities
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>>>> people for
>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
>>>>>>> also a
>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> >> social
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I
>>>>>>> can help
>>>>>>> >> set
>>>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>>> >> slack
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>>>> communication
>>>>>>> >> > through
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>>>> >> > should
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>>>> contributors
>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
>>>>>>> good to
>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore,
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>>>> transmissions
>>>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> >> than a
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> >> still
>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists.
>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>> >> means:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>>>> according to
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>>>> questions on
>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>>>> real time
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>>>>>> contributors are
>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
>>>>>>> only when
>>>>>>> >> all
>>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>>>> should not
>>>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>>>>>> with is
>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
>>>>>>> among them.
>>>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>>>> (Apache
>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
>>>>>>> would need
>>>>>>> >> an
>>>>>>> >> > official
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we
>>>>>>> get to
>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>>
>>
>
> --
> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> https://github.com/knaufk
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>]

>
> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>

Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about
making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier
to find.

Thank you~

Xintong Song



On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org> wrote:

> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
> already concerns about covering one additional channel.
>
> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search
> is easier.
>
> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then
> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything
> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?
>
>
>
> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
> tonysong820@gmail.com>:
>
>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" pages
>> to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on revisiting
>> in 6-12 months.
>>
>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping
>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.
>>
>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when
>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would
>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective,
>> forums are not much better than mailing lists.
>>
>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>>
>> Thank you~
>>
>> Xintong Song
>>
>>
>> [1] https://asktug.com/
>>
>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>>> intimidated.
>>>
>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This
>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion
>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier
>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to
>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a
>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the
>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an
>>> ASF machine. [1]
>>>
>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more
>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Konstantin
>>>
>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>>
>>>
>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>>
>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want
>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>>>
>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Timo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>>>
>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that
>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>>>> work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>>>> committer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>>>>>> Xintong!
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever,
>>>>>>> and quite
>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>>>> it, on a
>>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>>>> "Getting
>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
>>>>>>> truth tools"
>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>>>> communication, but
>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>>>>>>> developers,
>>>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <
>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for
>>>>>>> dev
>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
>>>>>>> MLs.
>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies
>>>>>>> what people
>>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>>>> that also
>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>>>>>> that, we
>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>>>>>> users,
>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>>>> archivability and
>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but
>>>>>>> none of them
>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>>>>>> efficient? By
>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>>>> helpers with
>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
>>>>>>> MLs are
>>>>>>> >> now
>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>>>>>> initiate
>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> >> excited
>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>>>> users than
>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>>>>>> solving
>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>>>>>> compared
>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
>>>>>>> asked &
>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can
>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <
>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>>>> back and
>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>>>> list and
>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result
>>>>>>> I get a
>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it
>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>>>> expertise
>>>>>>> >> takes
>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>> >> to do
>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be
>>>>>>> a good
>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to
>>>>>>> request help
>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>>>>>>> interesting cases
>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out
>>>>>>> what's going
>>>>>>> >> on.
>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are
>>>>>>> unusual, or
>>>>>>> >> when a
>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
>>>>>>> slack
>>>>>>> >> channel
>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>> >> raised
>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel.
>>>>>>> Although it has
>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> >> who
>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a
>>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves
>>>>>>> no public
>>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
>>>>>>> worst
>>>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right
>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>> >> unless
>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>>>> progressed
>>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>>>>>>> users. There
>>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow
>>>>>>> [1]. I also
>>>>>>> >> see
>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing
>>>>>>> well-known
>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>>>> cause a
>>>>>>> >> lot
>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish
>>>>>>> a set of
>>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO
>>>>>>> it works
>>>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>>>> long as
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > result
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>>>> list/design
>>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>>>> questions over,
>>>>>>> >> > and
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our
>>>>>>> use case
>>>>>>> >> much
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <
>>>>>>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>>>>>>> *repeatedly*
>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are
>>>>>>> 4 years
>>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking
>>>>>>> questions about
>>>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also
>>>>>>> find a
>>>>>>> >> recent
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>>>> >> communication
>>>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> >> such
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> >> projects
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>> >> 4
>>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>>>> members,
>>>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones.
>>>>>>> That also
>>>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
>>>>>>> here we are
>>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous
>>>>>>> -1 [1].
>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>>>> overlooked
>>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292>
>>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service.
>>>>>>> If anyone
>>>>>>> >> > can
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>>>> channel
>>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>>>>>>> community. I'll
>>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>>>> years and
>>>>>>> >> > was
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>>>>>> anyway, but
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > project
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> >> list.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
>>>>>>> use Slack.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>>>>>>> communities
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>>>> people for
>>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
>>>>>>> also a
>>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> >> social
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I
>>>>>>> can help
>>>>>>> >> set
>>>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>>> >> slack
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>>>> communication
>>>>>>> >> > through
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>>>> >> > should
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>>>> contributors
>>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be
>>>>>>> good to
>>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore,
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>>>> transmissions
>>>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> >> than a
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> >> still
>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists.
>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>> >> means:
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>>>> according to
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>>>> questions on
>>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>>>> real time
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>>>>>> contributors are
>>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier
>>>>>>> only when
>>>>>>> >> all
>>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>>>> should not
>>>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>>>>>> with is
>>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
>>>>>>> among them.
>>>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>>>> (Apache
>>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
>>>>>>> would need
>>>>>>> >> an
>>>>>>> >> > official
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we
>>>>>>> get to
>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>>
>>
>
> --
> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> https://github.com/knaufk
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>]

I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
already concerns about covering one additional channel.

I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search
is easier.

To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then go
into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything about
Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?



Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
tonysong820@gmail.com>:

> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" pages
> to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on revisiting
> in 6-12 months.
>
> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping
> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.
>
> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when you
> are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would motivate
> users to interact more with each other. From that perspective, forums are
> not much better than mailing lists.
>
> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
> [1] https://asktug.com/
>
> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>> intimidated.
>>
>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This is
>> about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion more
>> so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier to
>> find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to me. A
>> well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a mailing
>> list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the advantage of
>> being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an ASF machine.
>> [1]
>>
>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more
>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Konstantin
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>
>>
>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>
>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want
>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>>
>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Timo
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>>
>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>>
>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
>>>> expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that
>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>>> work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>>> you can
>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>>> committer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>>>>> Xintong!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>>>>>> quite
>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>>> it, on a
>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>>> "Getting
>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
>>>>>> truth tools"
>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>>> communication, but
>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>>> important
>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <tonysong820@gmail.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
>>>>>> MLs.
>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>>> that also
>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>>>>> that, we
>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>>>>> users,
>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>>> archivability and
>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none
>>>>>> of them
>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>>>>> efficient? By
>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>>> helpers with
>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
>>>>>> MLs are
>>>>>> >> now
>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>>> into the
>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>>>>> initiate
>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>>> community.
>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>>>>>> >> excited
>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>>> users than
>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>>>>> solving
>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>>>>> compared
>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
>>>>>> asked &
>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <jingsonglee0@gmail.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
>>>>>> slack
>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>>> back and
>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>>> list and
>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result
>>>>>> I get a
>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it
>>>>>> on a
>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>>> expertise
>>>>>> >> takes
>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>>> energy
>>>>>> >> to do
>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be
>>>>>> a good
>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>>>>>> cases
>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> >> on.
>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> >> when a
>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>>> previous
>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
>>>>>> slack
>>>>>> >> channel
>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>> >> raised
>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although
>>>>>> it has
>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> >> who
>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>>> starting
>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
>>>>>> worst
>>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>>> content
>>>>>> >> unless
>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>>> progressed
>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>>>>>> users. There
>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1].
>>>>>> I also
>>>>>> >> see
>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>>> cause a
>>>>>> >> lot
>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a
>>>>>> set of
>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>>>>>> works
>>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>>> long as
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > result
>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>>> list/design
>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>>> questions over,
>>>>>> >> > and
>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
>>>>>> for the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>>> for the
>>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use
>>>>>> case
>>>>>> >> much
>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <tonysong820@gmail.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are
>>>>>> 4 years
>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> >> recent
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>>> >> communication
>>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> >> such
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> >> projects
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>>> the past
>>>>>> >> 4
>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>>> members,
>>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
>>>>>> here we are
>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>>> instead
>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1
>>>>>> [1].
>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>>> overlooked
>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the
>>>>>> ASF
>>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service.
>>>>>> If anyone
>>>>>> >> > can
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>>> channel
>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community.
>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>>> years and
>>>>>> >> > was
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>>>>> anyway, but
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > project
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>> >> list.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
>>>>>> use Slack.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>>> people for
>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
>>>>>> also a
>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> >> social
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> >> set
>>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>> >> slack
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>>> communication
>>>>>> >> > through
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>>> >> > should
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>>> especially
>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>>> contributors
>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore,
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>>> likely
>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>>> transmissions
>>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> >> than a
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> >> still
>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists.
>>>>>> That
>>>>>> >> means:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>>> according to
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>>> questions on
>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>>> should be
>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>>> real time
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>>>>> contributors are
>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> >> all
>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>>> should not
>>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>>>>> with is
>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
>>>>>> among them.
>>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>>> back to
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>>> (Apache
>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
>>>>>> would need
>>>>>> >> an
>>>>>> >> > official
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we
>>>>>> get to
>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>
>

-- 
https://twitter.com/snntrable
https://github.com/knaufk

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>]

I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have
already concerns about covering one additional channel.

I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list.
Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search
is easier.

To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then go
into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything about
Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation?



Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song <
tonysong820@gmail.com>:

> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" pages
> to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on revisiting
> in 6-12 months.
>
> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with
> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping
> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.
>
> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when you
> are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would motivate
> users to interact more with each other. From that perspective, forums are
> not much better than mailing lists.
>
> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
> [1] https://asktug.com/
>
> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
>> intimidated.
>>
>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This is
>> about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion more
>> so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier to
>> find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to me. A
>> well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a mailing
>> list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the advantage of
>> being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an ASF machine.
>> [1]
>>
>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated
>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more
>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Konstantin
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>>
>>
>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <
>> twalthr@apache.org>:
>>
>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely
>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want
>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>>
>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Timo
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>>
>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>>
>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
>>>> expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that
>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>>> work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>> martijnvisser@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>>> you can
>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>>> committer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>>>>> Xintong!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>>> the ASF
>>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>>>>>> quite
>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>>> it, on a
>>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>>> "Getting
>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground
>>>>>> truth tools"
>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>>> communication, but
>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>>>>>> google-indexable.
>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would
>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>>> important
>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <tonysong820@gmail.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the
>>>>>> MLs.
>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>>> that also
>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a
>>>>>> no-reply as a
>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>>>>> that, we
>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>>>>> users,
>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>>> archivability and
>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none
>>>>>> of them
>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more
>>>>>> efficient? By
>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>>> helpers with
>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on
>>>>>> MLs are
>>>>>> >> now
>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>>> into the
>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and
>>>>>> initiate
>>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>>> community.
>>>>>> >> We
>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>> >> do
>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>>>>>> >> excited
>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>>> users than
>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>>>>> solving
>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>>> proactively
>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>>>>> compared
>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly
>>>>>> asked &
>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <jingsonglee0@gmail.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their
>>>>>> slack
>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>>> back and
>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>>> list and
>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result
>>>>>> I get a
>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it
>>>>>> on a
>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>>> expertise
>>>>>> >> takes
>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>>> energy
>>>>>> >> to do
>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be
>>>>>> a good
>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>>>>>> cases
>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>>>>>> going
>>>>>> >> on.
>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> >> when a
>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <
>>>>>> becket.qin@gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>>> previous
>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a
>>>>>> slack
>>>>>> >> channel
>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this
>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>> >> raised
>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although
>>>>>> it has
>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> >> who
>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>>> starting
>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the
>>>>>> worst
>>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>>> content
>>>>>> >> unless
>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>>> progressed
>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to
>>>>>> users. There
>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1].
>>>>>> I also
>>>>>> >> see
>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>>> cause a
>>>>>> >> lot
>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a
>>>>>> set of
>>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>>>>>> works
>>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>>> long as
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > result
>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>>> list/design
>>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>>> questions over,
>>>>>> >> > and
>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel
>>>>>> for the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>>> for the
>>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use
>>>>>> case
>>>>>> >> much
>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <tonysong820@gmail.com
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>>> workspace
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are
>>>>>> 4 years
>>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> >> recent
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>>> >> communication
>>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> >> such
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> >> projects
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>>> the past
>>>>>> >> 4
>>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>>> members,
>>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace,
>>>>>> here we are
>>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>>> instead
>>>>>> >> of
>>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1
>>>>>> [1].
>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>>> overlooked
>>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the
>>>>>> ASF
>>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service.
>>>>>> If anyone
>>>>>> >> > can
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>>> channel
>>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community.
>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>>> >> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>>> years and
>>>>>> >> > was
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide
>>>>>> anyway, but
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > project
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>> >> list.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to
>>>>>> use Slack.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>>> people for
>>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but
>>>>>> also a
>>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> >> social
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> >> set
>>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>> >> slack
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>>> communication
>>>>>> >> > through
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>>> >> > should
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>>> especially
>>>>>> >> for
>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>>> contributors
>>>>>> >> from
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore,
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>>> likely
>>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>>> transmissions
>>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> >> than a
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> >> still
>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists.
>>>>>> That
>>>>>> >> means:
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important
>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>> >> should
>>>>>> >> > be
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>>> according to
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>>> questions on
>>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>>> should be
>>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>>> real time
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>>>>>> contributors are
>>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> >> all
>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>>> should not
>>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>>>>> with is
>>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search
>>>>>> among them.
>>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>>> back to
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>>> (Apache
>>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we
>>>>>> would need
>>>>>> >> an
>>>>>> >> > official
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we
>>>>>> get to
>>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> https://twitter.com/snntrable
>> https://github.com/knaufk
>>
>

-- 
https://twitter.com/snntrable
https://github.com/knaufk

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>]

I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" pages
to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on revisiting
in 6-12 months.

Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with Konstantin.
I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping them
organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.

IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when you
are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would motivate
users to interact more with each other. From that perspective, forums are
not much better than mailing lists.

I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.

Thank you~

Xintong Song


[1] https://asktug.com/

On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org> wrote:

> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
> intimidated.
>
> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This is
> about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion more
> so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier to
> find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to me. A
> well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a mailing
> list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the advantage of
> being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an ASF machine.
> [1]
>
> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated Apache
> Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more channels
> (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Konstantin
>
> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>
>
> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <twalthr@apache.org
> >:
>
>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>
>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely stay
>> where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want to
>> subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>
>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Timo
>>
>>
>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>
>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>
>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
>>> expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we
>>> update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>> work.
>>>
>>>
>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>> you can
>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>> committer.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>>>> Xintong!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>> the ASF
>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>>>>> quite
>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>> could
>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>> it, on a
>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>> "Getting
>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
>>>>> tools"
>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>> communication, but
>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>> advanced
>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find
>>>>> that
>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>> important
>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get
>>>>> the
>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>>>>> people
>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>> that also
>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply
>>>>> as a
>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>>>> that, we
>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>>>> users,
>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>> archivability and
>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none
>>>>> of them
>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient?
>>>>> By
>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>> helpers with
>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>> etc.
>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs
>>>>> are
>>>>> >> now
>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>> into the
>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>> community.
>>>>> >> We
>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>>>> didn't
>>>>> >> do
>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>>>>> >> excited
>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>> users than
>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>>>> solving
>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>> proactively
>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>>>> compared
>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>> interaction
>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked
>>>>> &
>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring
>>>>> such
>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>>>> think
>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>> back and
>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>> list and
>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I
>>>>> get a
>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on
>>>>> a
>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>> expertise
>>>>> >> takes
>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>> energy
>>>>> >> to do
>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a
>>>>> good
>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request
>>>>> help
>>>>> >> from
>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>>>>> cases
>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>>>>> going
>>>>> >> on.
>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual,
>>>>> or
>>>>> >> when a
>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>> something
>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <becket.qin@gmail.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>> previous
>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>>>>> >> channel
>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic
>>>>> is
>>>>> >> raised
>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although
>>>>> it has
>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>> people
>>>>> >> who
>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>>>>> public
>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>> starting
>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>> content
>>>>> >> unless
>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>> progressed
>>>>> >> and
>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
>>>>> There
>>>>> >> are
>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1].
>>>>> I also
>>>>> >> see
>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>> cause a
>>>>> >> lot
>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a
>>>>> set of
>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>>>>> works
>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>> long as
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > result
>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>> list/design
>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>> questions over,
>>>>> >> > and
>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>> for the
>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use
>>>>> case
>>>>> >> much
>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>> workspace
>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
>>>>> years
>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>>>>> about
>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>>>>> >> recent
>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>> >> communication
>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>>>> having
>>>>> >> such
>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>>>>> >> projects
>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>> the past
>>>>> >> 4
>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>> members,
>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That
>>>>> also
>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>> discussion.
>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here
>>>>> we are
>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>> instead
>>>>> >> of
>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1
>>>>> [1].
>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>> overlooked
>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the
>>>>> ASF
>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> >> > can
>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>> channel
>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer.
>>>>> This
>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community.
>>>>> I'll
>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>> years and
>>>>> >> > was
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway,
>>>>> but
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > project
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>> mailing
>>>>> >> list.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>> surprised
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
>>>>> Slack.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>> people for
>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also
>>>>> a
>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have
>>>>> more
>>>>> >> social
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can
>>>>> help
>>>>> >> set
>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>> Flink
>>>>> >> slack
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>> communication
>>>>> >> > through
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>> >> > should
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>> especially
>>>>> >> for
>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>> contributors
>>>>> >> from
>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore,
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>> likely
>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>> transmissions
>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>> rather
>>>>> >> than a
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>> should
>>>>> >> still
>>>>> >> > be
>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists.
>>>>> That
>>>>> >> means:
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>>>>> >> should
>>>>> >> > be
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>> according to
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>>>> happen.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>> questions on
>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>> should be
>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>> real time
>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors
>>>>> are
>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only
>>>>> when
>>>>> >> all
>>>>> >> > the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>> should not
>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>>>> with is
>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
>>>>> them.
>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>>>> first
>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>> back to
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>> (Apache
>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would
>>>>> need
>>>>> >> an
>>>>> >> > official
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we
>>>>> get to
>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
> --
> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> https://github.com/knaufk
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>]

I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" pages
to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on revisiting
in 6-12 months.

Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with Konstantin.
I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping them
organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc.

IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when you
are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would motivate
users to interact more with each other. From that perspective, forums are
not much better than mailing lists.

I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I
definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to
find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not
very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not
as easy to set up and maintain as Slack.

Thank you~

Xintong Song


[1] https://asktug.com/

On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org> wrote:

> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo
> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and
> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see
> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are
> intimidated.
>
> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This is
> about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion more
> so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier to
> find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to me. A
> well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a mailing
> list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the advantage of
> being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an ASF machine.
> [1]
>
> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated Apache
> Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more channels
> (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally
> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack,
> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we
> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Konstantin
>
> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse
>
>
> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <twalthr@apache.org
> >:
>
>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink
>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for
>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of
>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also
>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>>
>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely stay
>> where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want to
>> subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
>> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>>
>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
>> made for modern real-time forums.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Timo
>>
>>
>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>>
>> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
>> experience of the Flink China community.
>>
>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>>> people to join our Slack (1)
>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
>>> expire after 100 guests have joined.
>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we
>>> update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>>> work.
>>>
>>>
>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF
>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal:
>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack,
>>>>> you can
>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>>> committer.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>>>> Xintong!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using
>>>>> the ASF
>>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>>>>> quite
>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>>> could
>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into
>>>>> it, on a
>>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>>> "Getting
>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
>>>>> tools"
>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>>>>> communication, but
>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>>>> >
>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the
>>>>> advanced
>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find
>>>>> that
>>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>>> important
>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get
>>>>> the
>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>>>>> > indexing).
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>>>>> people
>>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>>> that also
>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply
>>>>> as a
>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>>>> that, we
>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>>>> users,
>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>>> archivability and
>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none
>>>>> of them
>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient?
>>>>> By
>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and
>>>>> helpers with
>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls,
>>>>> etc.
>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>>> mentioned.)
>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs
>>>>> are
>>>>> >> now
>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that
>>>>> into the
>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>>> community.
>>>>> >> We
>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>>>> didn't
>>>>> >> do
>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>>>>> >> excited
>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users &
>>>>> users than
>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>>>> solving
>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>>> proactively
>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>>>> compared
>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>>> interaction
>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked
>>>>> &
>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring
>>>>> such
>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>>>> think
>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate
>>>>> back and
>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing
>>>>> list and
>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I
>>>>> get a
>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on
>>>>> a
>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>>> expertise
>>>>> >> takes
>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>>> energy
>>>>> >> to do
>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a
>>>>> good
>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request
>>>>> help
>>>>> >> from
>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>>>>> cases
>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>>>>> going
>>>>> >> on.
>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual,
>>>>> or
>>>>> >> when a
>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>>> something
>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > David
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <becket.qin@gmail.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>>> previous
>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>>>>> >> channel
>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic
>>>>> is
>>>>> >> raised
>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although
>>>>> it has
>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>>> people
>>>>> >> who
>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>>>>> public
>>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>>> PMC, some
>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>>> suggestions of
>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>>> starting
>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>>>>> >> case, we
>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>>>>> >> indexed
>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>>> content
>>>>> >> unless
>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>>> progressed
>>>>> >> and
>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
>>>>> There
>>>>> >> are
>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1].
>>>>> I also
>>>>> >> see
>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>>> cause a
>>>>> >> lot
>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a
>>>>> set of
>>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>>>>> works
>>>>> >> > great as
>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>>>>> >> > searchable
>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as
>>>>> long as
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > result
>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>>> list/design
>>>>> >> > doc.
>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>>> achieve. In
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same
>>>>> questions over,
>>>>> >> > and
>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> > previous
>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels
>>>>> for the
>>>>> >> > users.
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>>> oldest/newest
>>>>> >> > at top)
>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use
>>>>> case
>>>>> >> much
>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>>> workspace
>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
>>>>> years
>>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>>>>> about
>>>>> >> > whether
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>>>>> >> recent
>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>>> >> communication
>>>>> >> > channels
>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>>>> having
>>>>> >> such
>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>>>>> >> projects
>>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during
>>>>> the past
>>>>> >> 4
>>>>> >> > years.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>>> members,
>>>>> >> > and even
>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That
>>>>> also
>>>>> >> > means more
>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>>> discussion.
>>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here
>>>>> we are
>>>>> >> > proposing
>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>>> instead
>>>>> >> of
>>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>>> >> Workspace
>>>>> >> > as an
>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1
>>>>> [1].
>>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I
>>>>> overlooked
>>>>> >> > anything,
>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the
>>>>> ASF
>>>>> >> Slack
>>>>> >> > isn't
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>>>>> >> > questionable
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> >> > can
>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>>> >> > All of
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>>> channel
>>>>> >> > requires an
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer.
>>>>> This
>>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>>>>> >> prefer
>>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community.
>>>>> I'll
>>>>> >> > forward this
>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>>> years and
>>>>> >> > was
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>>> invalidate the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway,
>>>>> but
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > project
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>>> mailing
>>>>> >> list.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>>> surprised
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
>>>>> Slack.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking
>>>>> people for
>>>>> >> > opinions
>>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also
>>>>> a
>>>>> >> > connection to
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have
>>>>> more
>>>>> >> social
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>>> >> > presentations
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can
>>>>> help
>>>>> >> set
>>>>> >> > up the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>>> Flink
>>>>> >> slack
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>>> communication
>>>>> >> > through
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>>> >> computing,
>>>>> >> > should
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>>> especially
>>>>> >> for
>>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>>> contributors
>>>>> >> from
>>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> > provide a
>>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore,
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> >> > propose to
>>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> Flink
>>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less
>>>>> likely
>>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>>> transmissions
>>>>> >> > that help
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>>>>> flink-statefun,
>>>>> >> > temporal
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension
>>>>> rather
>>>>> >> than a
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>>> should
>>>>> >> still
>>>>> >> > be
>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists.
>>>>> That
>>>>> >> means:
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>>>>> >> should
>>>>> >> > be
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>>> according to
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > Apache
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>>>> happen.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>>> questions on
>>>>> >> > slack.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>>> should be
>>>>> >> > posted on
>>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a
>>>>> real time
>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors
>>>>> are
>>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only
>>>>> when
>>>>> >> all
>>>>> >> > the
>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>>> should not
>>>>> >> > expect
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>>>> with is
>>>>> >> > its lack
>>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
>>>>> them.
>>>>> >> > There are
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>>>> first
>>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected
>>>>> back to
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > mailing
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>>> >> searchability.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>>> (Apache
>>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would
>>>>> need
>>>>> >> an
>>>>> >> > official
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we
>>>>> get to
>>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
> --
> https://twitter.com/snntrable
> https://github.com/knaufk
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>]

Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo here.
Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and mailing
list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see the
friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are intimidated.

I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This is
about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion more
so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier to
find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to me. A
well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a mailing
list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the advantage of
being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an ASF machine.
[1]

When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated Apache
Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more channels
(e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally customize
the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack, let's
definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we don't
necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.

Cheers,

Konstantin

[1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse


Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <tw...@apache.org>:

> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink community
> in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for improving the
> collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of 10k+ users
> collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also reduce the
> burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>
> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely stay
> where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want to
> subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>
> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
> made for modern real-time forums.
>
> Regards,
> Timo
>
>
> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>
> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
> experience of the Flink China community.
>
> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>
> David
>
> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>> people to join our Slack (1)
>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
>> expire after 100 guests have joined.
>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we
>> update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>> work.
>>
>>
>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack
>>> is indeed not ideal:
>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you
>>>> can
>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>> committer.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>>> Xintong!
>>>> >
>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the
>>>> ASF
>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>>>> quite
>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>> could
>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it,
>>>> on a
>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>> >
>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>> "Getting
>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
>>>> tools"
>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication,
>>>> but
>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>>> >
>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find
>>>> that
>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>> >
>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>> important
>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>>>> > indexing).
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>>>> people
>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>> that also
>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply
>>>> as a
>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>>> that, we
>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>>> users,
>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>> archivability and
>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none
>>>> of them
>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient?
>>>> By
>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers
>>>> with
>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>> mentioned.)
>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs
>>>> are
>>>> >> now
>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into
>>>> the
>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>> community.
>>>> >> We
>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>>> didn't
>>>> >> do
>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>>>> >> excited
>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users
>>>> than
>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>>> solving
>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>> proactively
>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>>> compared
>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>> interaction
>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring
>>>> such
>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>>> think
>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back
>>>> and
>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list
>>>> and
>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I
>>>> get a
>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>> expertise
>>>> >> takes
>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>> energy
>>>> >> to do
>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a
>>>> good
>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request
>>>> help
>>>> >> from
>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>>>> cases
>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>>>> going
>>>> >> on.
>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
>>>> >> when a
>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>> something
>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > David
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>> previous
>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>>>> >> channel
>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic
>>>> is
>>>> >> raised
>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although
>>>> it has
>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>> people
>>>> >> who
>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>>>> public
>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>> PMC, some
>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>> suggestions of
>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>> starting
>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>>>> >> case, we
>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>>>> >> indexed
>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>> content
>>>> >> unless
>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>> progressed
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
>>>> There
>>>> >> are
>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I
>>>> also
>>>> >> see
>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>> cause a
>>>> >> lot
>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a
>>>> set of
>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>>>> works
>>>> >> > great as
>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>>>> >> > searchable
>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long
>>>> as
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > result
>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>> list/design
>>>> >> > doc.
>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>> achieve. In
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions
>>>> over,
>>>> >> > and
>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to
>>>> the
>>>> >> > previous
>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for
>>>> the
>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for
>>>> the
>>>> >> > users.
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>> oldest/newest
>>>> >> > at top)
>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use
>>>> case
>>>> >> much
>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>> workspace
>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
>>>> years
>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>>>> about
>>>> >> > whether
>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>>>> >> recent
>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>> >> communication
>>>> >> > channels
>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>>> having
>>>> >> such
>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>>>> >> projects
>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the
>>>> past
>>>> >> 4
>>>> >> > years.
>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>> members,
>>>> >> > and even
>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That
>>>> also
>>>> >> > means more
>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>> discussion.
>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here
>>>> we are
>>>> >> > proposing
>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>> instead
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>> >> Workspace
>>>> >> > as an
>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1
>>>> [1].
>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
>>>> >> > anything,
>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the
>>>> ASF
>>>> >> Slack
>>>> >> > isn't
>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>>>> >> > questionable
>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
>>>> anyone
>>>> >> > can
>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>> >> > All of
>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>> channel
>>>> >> > requires an
>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer.
>>>> This
>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>>>> >> prefer
>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community.
>>>> I'll
>>>> >> > forward this
>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>> years and
>>>> >> > was
>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>> invalidate the
>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway,
>>>> but
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > project
>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>> mailing
>>>> >> list.
>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>> surprised
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
>>>> Slack.
>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people
>>>> for
>>>> >> > opinions
>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>>>> >> > connection to
>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have
>>>> more
>>>> >> social
>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>> >> > presentations
>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can
>>>> help
>>>> >> set
>>>> >> > up the
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>> Flink
>>>> >> slack
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>> communication
>>>> >> > through
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>> >> computing,
>>>> >> > should
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>> especially
>>>> >> for
>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>> contributors
>>>> >> from
>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
>>>> >> > provide a
>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
>>>> >> > propose to
>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
>>>> >> Flink
>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>> transmissions
>>>> >> > that help
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
>>>> >> > temporal
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
>>>> >> than a
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>> should
>>>> >> still
>>>> >> > be
>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists.
>>>> That
>>>> >> means:
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>>>> >> should
>>>> >> > be
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>> according to
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > Apache
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>>> happen.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>> questions on
>>>> >> > slack.
>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>> should be
>>>> >> > posted on
>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real
>>>> time
>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors
>>>> are
>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only
>>>> when
>>>> >> all
>>>> >> > the
>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>> should not
>>>> >> > expect
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>>> with is
>>>> >> > its lack
>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
>>>> them.
>>>> >> > There are
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>>> first
>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to
>>>> the
>>>> >> > mailing
>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back
>>>> to
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > mailing
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>> >> searchability.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>> (Apache
>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would
>>>> need
>>>> >> an
>>>> >> > official
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we
>>>> get to
>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>

-- 
https://twitter.com/snntrable
https://github.com/knaufk

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Konstantin Knauf <kn...@apache.org>]

Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo here.
Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and mailing
list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see the
friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are intimidated.

I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This is
about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion more
so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier to
find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to me. A
well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a mailing
list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the advantage of
being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an ASF machine.
[1]

When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated Apache
Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more channels
(e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using
http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally customize
the experience more towards Apache Flink.  If we go for Slack, let's
definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we don't
necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself.

Cheers,

Konstantin

[1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse


Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther <tw...@apache.org>:

> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink community
> in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for improving the
> collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of 10k+ users
> collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also reduce the
> burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions.
>
> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design
> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely stay
> where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want to
> subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox
> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it
> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and
> setting up rules is also not convenient.
>
> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an
> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might
> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would
> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually
> made for modern real-time forums.
>
> Regards,
> Timo
>
>
> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
>
> Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the
> experience of the Flink China community.
>
> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions
> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out
> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid
> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about
> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.
>
> David
>
> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
>> people to join our Slack (1)
>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
>> expire after 100 guests have joined.
>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we
>> update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
>> work.
>>
>>
>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack
>>> is indeed not ideal:
>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you
>>>> can
>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a
>>>> committer.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>>> Xintong!
>>>> >
>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the
>>>> ASF
>>>> > Slack instance?
>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>>>> quite
>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we
>>>> could
>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it,
>>>> on a
>>>> > voluntary basis.
>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>>> >
>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>>> "Getting
>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
>>>> tools"
>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication,
>>>> but
>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>>> >
>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find
>>>> that
>>>> > goldmine of information.
>>>> >
>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>>> important
>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>>>> > indexing).
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>>>> people
>>>> >> should / should not do.
>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think
>>>> that also
>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply
>>>> as a
>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>>> that, we
>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>>> users,
>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>>> archivability and
>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none
>>>> of them
>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient?
>>>> By
>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers
>>>> with
>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>>> mentioned.)
>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs
>>>> are
>>>> >> now
>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into
>>>> the
>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>>> community.
>>>> >> We
>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>>> didn't
>>>> >> do
>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>>>> >> excited
>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users
>>>> than
>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>>> solving
>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>>> proactively
>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>>> compared
>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>>> interaction
>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring
>>>> such
>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>>> think
>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Thank you~
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Xintong Song
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back
>>>> and
>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list
>>>> and
>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I
>>>> get a
>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary
>>>> expertise
>>>> >> takes
>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>>> energy
>>>> >> to do
>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a
>>>> good
>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request
>>>> help
>>>> >> from
>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>>>> cases
>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>>>> going
>>>> >> on.
>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
>>>> >> when a
>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>>> something
>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > David
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>>> previous
>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>>>> >> channel
>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic
>>>> is
>>>> >> raised
>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although
>>>> it has
>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>>> people
>>>> >> who
>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>>>> public
>>>> >> > record at all.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink
>>>> PMC, some
>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the
>>>> suggestions of
>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>>> starting
>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>>>> >> case, we
>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>>>> >> indexed
>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack
>>>> content
>>>> >> unless
>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>>> progressed
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
>>>> There
>>>> >> are
>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I
>>>> also
>>>> >> see
>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can
>>>> cause a
>>>> >> lot
>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a
>>>> set of
>>>> >> > community rules.
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>>>> works
>>>> >> > great as
>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>>>> >> > searchable
>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long
>>>> as
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > result
>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>>> list/design
>>>> >> > doc.
>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>>> achieve. In
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions
>>>> over,
>>>> >> > and
>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to
>>>> the
>>>> >> > previous
>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for
>>>> the
>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for
>>>> the
>>>> >> > users.
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>>> oldest/newest
>>>> >> > at top)
>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use
>>>> case
>>>> >> much
>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>> workspace
>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>>>> >> > discussed on the
>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
>>>> years
>>>> >> > ago. On
>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>>>> about
>>>> >> > whether
>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>>>> >> recent
>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>>> >> communication
>>>> >> > channels
>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>>> having
>>>> >> such
>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>>>> >> projects
>>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the
>>>> past
>>>> >> 4
>>>> >> > years.
>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>>> members,
>>>> >> > and even
>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That
>>>> also
>>>> >> > means more
>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>>> discussion.
>>>> >> > Instead of
>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here
>>>> we are
>>>> >> > proposing
>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>>> instead
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> > *moving*
>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>>> >> Workspace
>>>> >> > as an
>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1
>>>> [1].
>>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
>>>> >> > anything,
>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the
>>>> ASF
>>>> >> Slack
>>>> >> > isn't
>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>>>> >> > questionable
>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
>>>> anyone
>>>> >> > can
>>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>>>> >> GitHub.
>>>> >> > All of
>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>>> channel
>>>> >> > requires an
>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer.
>>>> This
>>>> >> > minimizes the
>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>>>> >> prefer
>>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community.
>>>> I'll
>>>> >> > forward this
>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>>> years and
>>>> >> > was
>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>>> invalidate the
>>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway,
>>>> but
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > project
>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the
>>>> mailing
>>>> >> list.
>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are
>>>> surprised
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
>>>> Slack.
>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people
>>>> for
>>>> >> > opinions
>>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>>>> >> > connection to
>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have
>>>> more
>>>> >> social
>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>>> >> > presentations
>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can
>>>> help
>>>> >> set
>>>> >> > up the
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache
>>>> Flink
>>>> >> slack
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>>> communication
>>>> >> > through
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>>> >> computing,
>>>> >> > should
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>>> especially
>>>> >> for
>>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>>> contributors
>>>> >> from
>>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
>>>> >> > provide a
>>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
>>>> >> > propose to
>>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
>>>> >> Flink
>>>> >> > PMC.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>>>> >> > overlooked.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>>> transmissions
>>>> >> > that help
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
>>>> >> > temporal
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
>>>> >> than a
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members
>>>> should
>>>> >> still
>>>> >> > be
>>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists.
>>>> That
>>>> >> means:
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>>>> >> should
>>>> >> > be
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all,
>>>> according to
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > Apache
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>>> happen.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>>> questions on
>>>> >> > slack.
>>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long)
>>>> should be
>>>> >> > posted on
>>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real
>>>> time
>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>>>> >> > responsive. We
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors
>>>> are
>>>> >> > volunteers.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only
>>>> when
>>>> >> all
>>>> >> > the
>>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>>> should not
>>>> >> > expect
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>>> with is
>>>> >> > its lack
>>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
>>>> them.
>>>> >> > There are
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>>> first
>>>> >> > step, we may
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to
>>>> the
>>>> >> > mailing
>>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back
>>>> to
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > mailing
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>>> >> searchability.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects
>>>> (Apache
>>>> >> > hosted or
>>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2],
>>>> IceBerg [3],
>>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would
>>>> need
>>>> >> an
>>>> >> > official
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we
>>>> get to
>>>> >> > that, I’d
>>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>>> >> > >>>> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>

-- 
https://twitter.com/snntrable
https://github.com/knaufk

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Timo Walther <tw...@apache.org>]

I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink 
community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for 
improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel 
of 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could 
also reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked 
questions.

Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design 
discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely stay 
where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want to 
subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox 
filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting 
it might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing 
lists and setting up rules is also not convenient.

It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an 
official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It 
might make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter 
would definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is 
actually made for modern real-time forums.

Regards,
Timo


Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> Thank you @Xintong Song <ma...@gmail.com> for sharing the 
> experience of the Flink China community.
>
> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions 
> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can 
> reach out for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will 
> need a paid instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy 
> enough (took me about 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go 
> down this route.
>
> David
>
> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org> 
> wrote:
>
>     It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website
>     for people to join our Slack (1)
>     These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
>     will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>     I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
>     that we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
>     solution, but it'll work.
>
>
>     (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>
>
>     On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger
>     <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the
>         ASF Slack is indeed not ideal:
>         https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>         I'll see if we can improve it
>
>         On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser
>         <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>             As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance
>             of Slack, you can
>             only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited
>             by a committer.
>
>             On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger
>             <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>             > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for
>             the summary Xintong!
>             >
>             > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead
>             of using the ASF
>             > Slack instance?
>             > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
>             forever, and quite
>             > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>             > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack
>             instance, that we could
>             > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more
>             effort into it, on a
>             > voluntary basis.
>             > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack
>             for developer
>             > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc
>             chat.
>             >
>             > If we are going that path, we should rework the
>             "Community" and "Getting
>             > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
>             "ground truth tools"
>             > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>             communication, but
>             > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't
>             respond to DMs)
>             >
>             > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>             google-indexable.
>             > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>             > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>             > If we can't use slack-archives.org
>             <http://slack-archives.org>, it would be nice to find some
>             > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple
>             indexing tool.
>             > The indexing part is very important for me, because of
>             some bad
>             > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most
>             of the advanced
>             > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few
>             weeks to find that
>             > goldmine of information.
>             >
>             > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I
>             would suggest
>             > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if
>             really all important
>             > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and
>             that we get the
>             > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience
>             for users and
>             > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>             developers,
>             > indexing).
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song
>             <to...@gmail.com>
>             > wrote:
>             >
>             >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>             >>
>             >> It seems most people are overall positive about using
>             Slack for dev
>             >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected
>             back to the MLs.
>             >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
>             specifies what people
>             >> should / should not do.
>             >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers
>             /committers, I think that also
>             >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd
>             understand a no-reply as a
>             >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod
>             of conduct.
>             >>
>             >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
>             concern is that, we
>             >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>             different users,
>             >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
>             historical
>             >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for
>             the archivability and
>             >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier
>             [1], but none of them
>             >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
>             arguments.
>             >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication
>             more efficient? By
>             >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question
>             askers and helpers with
>             >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice /
>             video calls, etc.
>             >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed,
>             as David mentioned.)
>             >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
>             attentions on MLs are
>             >> now
>             >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably
>             put that into the
>             >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search
>             and initiate
>             >> questions on MLs.
>             >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink
>             China community.
>             >> We
>             >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might
>             be less, I didn't
>             >> do
>             >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily.
>             What I'm really
>             >> excited
>             >> about is that, there are way more interactions between
>             users & users than
>             >> between users & developers. Users are helping each
>             other, sharing
>             >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
>             documentations and solving
>             >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged,
>             if not proactively
>             >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way
>             more active compared
>             >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
>             improvement of interaction
>             >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
>             repeatedly asked &
>             >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the
>             benefit of a
>             >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if
>             we can bring such
>             >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>             >>
>             >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
>             attention from the
>             >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr
>             & David. I think
>             >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>             >>
>             >> Thank you~
>             >>
>             >> Xintong Song
>             >>
>             >>
>             >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>             >>
>             >>
>             >>
>             >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li
>             <ji...@gmail.com>
>             >> wrote:
>             >>
>             >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set
>             up their slack
>             >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid
>             [2], etc.
>             >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>             >> >
>             >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
>             communicate back and
>             >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>             >> >
>             >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about
>             whether there are
>             >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the
>             slack, to
>             >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>             >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
>             mailing list and
>             >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we
>             need to do).
>             >> >
>             >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>             >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>             >> >
>             >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson
>             <da...@apache.org>
>             >> > wrote:
>             >> > >
>             >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>             >> > >
>             >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and
>             as a result I get a
>             >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want
>             to do it on a
>             >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>             >> > >
>             >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on
>             stack overflow
>             >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
>             necessary expertise
>             >> takes
>             >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
>             collective energy
>             >> to do
>             >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack
>             overflow would be a good
>             >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users
>             to request help
>             >> from
>             >> > those who are already actively providing support on
>             the existing
>             >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>             >> > >
>             >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>             interesting cases
>             >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure
>             out what's going
>             >> on.
>             >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements
>             are unusual, or
>             >> when a
>             >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
>             circumstances, something
>             >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
>             overflow.
>             >> > >
>             >> > > David
>             >> > >
>             >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin
>             <be...@gmail.com>
>             >> wrote:
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned
>             in the previous
>             >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
>             having a slack
>             >> channel
>             >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact
>             that this topic is
>             >> raised
>             >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack
>             channel. Although it has
>             >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine
>             that for people
>             >> who
>             >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
>             channel, a lot of
>             >> > discussions might just take place offline today,
>             which leaves no public
>             >> > record at all.
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by
>             the Flink PMC, some
>             >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think
>             the suggestions of
>             >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails
>             are good starting
>             >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes.
>             In the worst
>             >> case, we
>             >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we
>             are right now.
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> Thanks,
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser
>             <martijn@ververica.com
>             >> >
>             >> > wrote:
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the
>             results are not
>             >> indexed
>             >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly
>             to Slack content
>             >> unless
>             >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source
>             space has progressed
>             >> and
>             >> > that Slack is considered as something that's
>             invaluable to users. There
>             >> are
>             >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
>             Airflow [1]. I also
>             >> see
>             >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
>             community.
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start
>             DMing well-known
>             >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged.
>             That can cause a
>             >> lot
>             >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
>             establish a set of
>             >> > community rules.
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> Best regards,
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> Martijn
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski
>             <pn...@apache.org>
>             >> > wrote:
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the
>             job. IMO it works
>             >> > great as
>             >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers,
>             but it's not
>             >> > searchable
>             >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works
>             fine, as long as
>             >> the
>             >> > result
>             >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
>             JIRA/mailing list/design
>             >> > doc.
>             >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely
>             difficult to achieve. In
>             >> the
>             >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the
>             same questions over,
>             >> > and
>             >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to
>             provide a link to the
>             >> > previous
>             >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
>             space/channel for the
>             >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
>             channels for the
>             >> > users.
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
>             example,
>             >> > stackoverflow.
>             >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers
>             (not the oldest/newest
>             >> > at top)
>             >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it
>             fit our use case
>             >> much
>             >> > >>>> better IMO.
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> Best,
>             >> > >>>> Piotrek
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song
>             <to...@gmail.com>
>             >> > napisał(a):
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>             >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>             >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>             >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache
>             Flink slack workspace
>             >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>             >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>             *repeatedly*
>             >> > discussed on the
>             >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2],
>             which are 4 years
>             >> > ago. On
>             >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are
>             asking questions about
>             >> > whether
>             >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides,
>             I also find a
>             >> recent
>             >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
>             alternative
>             >> communication
>             >> > channels
>             >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is
>             quite open to having
>             >> such
>             >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked
>             well for many
>             >> projects
>             >> > >>>> > already.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion
>             again:
>             >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have
>             change during the past
>             >> 4
>             >> > years.
>             >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including
>             committers and PMC members,
>             >> > and even
>             >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
>             timezones. That also
>             >> > means more
>             >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>             >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
>             previous discussion.
>             >> > Instead of
>             >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
>             workspace, here we are
>             >> > proposing
>             >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
>             workspace. And instead
>             >> of
>             >> > *moving*
>             >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to
>             add a Slack
>             >> Workspace
>             >> > as an
>             >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
>             previous -1 [1].
>             >> > IIUR, these
>             >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace.
>             If I overlooked
>             >> > anything,
>             >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
>             >> Slack
>             >> > isn't
>             >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service
>             into rather
>             >> > questionable
>             >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
>             service. If anyone
>             >> > can
>             >> > >>>> > provide
>             >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing
>             lists, JIRA and
>             >> GitHub.
>             >> > All of
>             >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas
>             the slack channel
>             >> > requires an
>             >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>             committer. This
>             >> > minimizes the
>             >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I
>             would much rather
>             >> prefer
>             >> > >>>> > something
>             >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>             community. I'll
>             >> > forward this
>             >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > [1]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>             >> > >>>> > [2]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>             >> > >>>> > [3]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>             >> > >>>> > [4]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>             >> > >>>> > [5]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>             >> chesnay@apache.org
>             >> > >
>             >> > >>>> > wrote:
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML
>             over the years and
>             >> > was
>             >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that
>             would invalidate the
>             >> > >>>> > previously
>             >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1
>             on it.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should
>             decide anyway, but
>             >> the
>             >> > project
>             >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition
>             to the mailing
>             >> list.
>             >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and
>             they are surprised
>             >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would
>             love to use Slack.
>             >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>             communities
>             >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and
>             asking people for
>             >> > opinions
>             >> > >>>> > and
>             >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>             >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for
>             Q&A but also a
>             >> > connection to
>             >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>             >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the
>             community have more
>             >> social
>             >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>             >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations,
>             articles, and
>             >> > presentations
>             >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>             >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink
>             slack, and I can help
>             >> set
>             >> > up the
>             >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > Best,
>             >> > >>>> > > Jark
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>             >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>             >> > wrote:
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating
>             an Apache Flink
>             >> slack
>             >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>             >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real
>             time communication
>             >> > through
>             >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for
>             real time
>             >> computing,
>             >> > should
>             >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
>             communication, especially
>             >> for
>             >> > ad-hoc
>             >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and
>             more contributors
>             >> from
>             >> > >>>> > different
>             >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it
>             would be good to
>             >> > provide a
>             >> > >>>> > common
>             >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>             Therefore, I'd
>             >> > propose to
>             >> > >>>> > create
>             >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
>             maintained by the
>             >> Flink
>             >> > PMC.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>             >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages
>             are less likely
>             >> > overlooked.
>             >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls,
>             file transmissions
>             >> > that help
>             >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>             >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>             flink-statefun,
>             >> > temporal
>             >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>             >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
>             extension rather
>             >> than a
>             >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
>             members should
>             >> still
>             >> > be
>             >> > >>>> > able to
>             >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the
>             mailing lists. That
>             >> means:
>             >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and
>             important opinions
>             >> should
>             >> > be
>             >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After
>             all, according to
>             >> the
>             >> > Apache
>             >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list,
>             it didn’t happen.
>             >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask
>             ad hoc questions on
>             >> > slack.
>             >> > >>>> > Long
>             >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that
>             grow long) should be
>             >> > posted on
>             >> > >>>> > the
>             >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on
>             slack for a real time
>             >> > >>>> > discussion.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>             >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being
>             pinged need to be
>             >> > responsive. We
>             >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>             contributors are
>             >> > volunteers.
>             >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication
>             easier only when
>             >> all
>             >> > the
>             >> > >>>> > peers
>             >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear
>             that people should not
>             >> > expect
>             >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>             >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>             mentioned with is
>             >> > its lack
>             >> > >>>> > of
>             >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to
>             search among them.
>             >> > There are
>             >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
>             problem[1]. As a first
>             >> > step, we may
>             >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting
>             things back to the
>             >> > mailing
>             >> > >>>> > lists.
>             >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
>             reflected back to
>             >> the
>             >> > mailing
>             >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the
>             archivability and
>             >> searchability.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>             >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
>             projects (Apache
>             >> > hosted or
>             >> > >>>> > not)
>             >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace:
>             AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
>             >> > HBase [4]
>             >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache
>             Flink, we would need
>             >> an
>             >> > official
>             >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
>             before we get to
>             >> > that, I’d
>             >> > >>>> > like
>             >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>             >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>             >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>             >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>             >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> >
>             >>
>             >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Timo Walther <tw...@apache.org>]

I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink 
community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for 
improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel 
of 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could 
also reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked 
questions.

Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design 
discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely stay 
where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want to 
subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox 
filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting 
it might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing 
lists and setting up rules is also not convenient.

It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an 
official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It 
might make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter 
would definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is 
actually made for modern real-time forums.

Regards,
Timo


Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson:
> Thank you @Xintong Song <ma...@gmail.com> for sharing the 
> experience of the Flink China community.
>
> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions 
> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can 
> reach out for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will 
> need a paid instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy 
> enough (took me about 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go 
> down this route.
>
> David
>
> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org> 
> wrote:
>
>     It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website
>     for people to join our Slack (1)
>     These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they
>     will expire after 100 guests have joined.
>     I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org)
>     that we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice
>     solution, but it'll work.
>
>
>     (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>
>
>     On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger
>     <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the
>         ASF Slack is indeed not ideal:
>         https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>         I'll see if we can improve it
>
>         On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser
>         <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>             As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance
>             of Slack, you can
>             only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited
>             by a committer.
>
>             On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger
>             <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>             > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for
>             the summary Xintong!
>             >
>             > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead
>             of using the ASF
>             > Slack instance?
>             > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained
>             forever, and quite
>             > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>             > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack
>             instance, that we could
>             > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more
>             effort into it, on a
>             > voluntary basis.
>             > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack
>             for developer
>             > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc
>             chat.
>             >
>             > If we are going that path, we should rework the
>             "Community" and "Getting
>             > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the
>             "ground truth tools"
>             > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster
>             communication, but
>             > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't
>             respond to DMs)
>             >
>             > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and
>             google-indexable.
>             > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>             > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>             > If we can't use slack-archives.org
>             <http://slack-archives.org>, it would be nice to find some
>             > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple
>             indexing tool.
>             > The indexing part is very important for me, because of
>             some bad
>             > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most
>             of the advanced
>             > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few
>             weeks to find that
>             > goldmine of information.
>             >
>             > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I
>             would suggest
>             > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if
>             really all important
>             > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and
>             that we get the
>             > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience
>             for users and
>             > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to
>             developers,
>             > indexing).
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song
>             <to...@gmail.com>
>             > wrote:
>             >
>             >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>             >>
>             >> It seems most people are overall positive about using
>             Slack for dev
>             >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected
>             back to the MLs.
>             >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly
>             specifies what people
>             >> should / should not do.
>             >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers
>             /committers, I think that also
>             >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd
>             understand a no-reply as a
>             >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod
>             of conduct.
>             >>
>             >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major
>             concern is that, we
>             >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from
>             different users,
>             >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching
>             historical
>             >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for
>             the archivability and
>             >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier
>             [1], but none of them
>             >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2
>             arguments.
>             >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication
>             more efficient? By
>             >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question
>             askers and helpers with
>             >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice /
>             video calls, etc.
>             >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed,
>             as David mentioned.)
>             >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough
>             attentions on MLs are
>             >> now
>             >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably
>             put that into the
>             >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search
>             and initiate
>             >> questions on MLs.
>             >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink
>             China community.
>             >> We
>             >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might
>             be less, I didn't
>             >> do
>             >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily.
>             What I'm really
>             >> excited
>             >> about is that, there are way more interactions between
>             users & users than
>             >> between users & developers. Users are helping each
>             other, sharing
>             >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files /
>             documentations and solving
>             >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged,
>             if not proactively
>             >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way
>             more active compared
>             >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the
>             improvement of interaction
>             >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being
>             repeatedly asked &
>             >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the
>             benefit of a
>             >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if
>             we can bring such
>             >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>             >>
>             >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more
>             attention from the
>             >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr
>             & David. I think
>             >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>             >>
>             >> Thank you~
>             >>
>             >> Xintong Song
>             >>
>             >>
>             >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>             >>
>             >>
>             >>
>             >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li
>             <ji...@gmail.com>
>             >> wrote:
>             >>
>             >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set
>             up their slack
>             >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid
>             [2], etc.
>             >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>             >> >
>             >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to
>             communicate back and
>             >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>             >> >
>             >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about
>             whether there are
>             >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the
>             slack, to
>             >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>             >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the
>             mailing list and
>             >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we
>             need to do).
>             >> >
>             >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>             >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>             >> >
>             >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson
>             <da...@apache.org>
>             >> > wrote:
>             >> > >
>             >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>             >> > >
>             >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and
>             as a result I get a
>             >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want
>             to do it on a
>             >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>             >> > >
>             >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on
>             stack overflow
>             >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the
>             necessary expertise
>             >> takes
>             >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the
>             collective energy
>             >> to do
>             >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack
>             overflow would be a good
>             >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users
>             to request help
>             >> from
>             >> > those who are already actively providing support on
>             the existing
>             >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>             >> > >
>             >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very
>             interesting cases
>             >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure
>             out what's going
>             >> on.
>             >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements
>             are unusual, or
>             >> when a
>             >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these
>             circumstances, something
>             >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack
>             overflow.
>             >> > >
>             >> > > David
>             >> > >
>             >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin
>             <be...@gmail.com>
>             >> wrote:
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned
>             in the previous
>             >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of
>             having a slack
>             >> channel
>             >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact
>             that this topic is
>             >> raised
>             >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack
>             channel. Although it has
>             >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine
>             that for people
>             >> who
>             >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack
>             channel, a lot of
>             >> > discussions might just take place offline today,
>             which leaves no public
>             >> > record at all.
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by
>             the Flink PMC, some
>             >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think
>             the suggestions of
>             >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails
>             are good starting
>             >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes.
>             In the worst
>             >> case, we
>             >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we
>             are right now.
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> Thanks,
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>             >> > >>
>             >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser
>             <martijn@ververica.com
>             >> >
>             >> > wrote:
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the
>             results are not
>             >> indexed
>             >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly
>             to Slack content
>             >> unless
>             >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source
>             space has progressed
>             >> and
>             >> > that Slack is considered as something that's
>             invaluable to users. There
>             >> are
>             >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache
>             Airflow [1]. I also
>             >> see
>             >> > it as a potential option to create a more active
>             community.
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start
>             DMing well-known
>             >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged.
>             That can cause a
>             >> lot
>             >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to
>             establish a set of
>             >> > community rules.
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> Best regards,
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> Martijn
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>             >> > >>>
>             >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski
>             <pn...@apache.org>
>             >> > wrote:
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the
>             job. IMO it works
>             >> > great as
>             >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers,
>             but it's not
>             >> > searchable
>             >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works
>             fine, as long as
>             >> the
>             >> > result
>             >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to
>             JIRA/mailing list/design
>             >> > doc.
>             >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely
>             difficult to achieve. In
>             >> the
>             >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the
>             same questions over,
>             >> > and
>             >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to
>             provide a link to the
>             >> > previous
>             >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack
>             space/channel for the
>             >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such
>             channels for the
>             >> > users.
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for
>             example,
>             >> > stackoverflow.
>             >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers
>             (not the oldest/newest
>             >> > at top)
>             >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it
>             fit our use case
>             >> much
>             >> > >>>> better IMO.
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> Best,
>             >> > >>>> Piotrek
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song
>             <to...@gmail.com>
>             >> > napisał(a):
>             >> > >>>>
>             >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>             >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>             >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>             >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache
>             Flink slack workspace
>             >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>             >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is
>             *repeatedly*
>             >> > discussed on the
>             >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2],
>             which are 4 years
>             >> > ago. On
>             >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are
>             asking questions about
>             >> > whether
>             >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides,
>             I also find a
>             >> recent
>             >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where
>             alternative
>             >> communication
>             >> > channels
>             >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is
>             quite open to having
>             >> such
>             >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked
>             well for many
>             >> projects
>             >> > >>>> > already.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion
>             again:
>             >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have
>             change during the past
>             >> 4
>             >> > years.
>             >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including
>             committers and PMC members,
>             >> > and even
>             >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and
>             timezones. That also
>             >> > means more
>             >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>             >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the
>             previous discussion.
>             >> > Instead of
>             >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF
>             workspace, here we are
>             >> > proposing
>             >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack
>             workspace. And instead
>             >> of
>             >> > *moving*
>             >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to
>             add a Slack
>             >> Workspace
>             >> > as an
>             >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your
>             previous -1 [1].
>             >> > IIUR, these
>             >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace.
>             If I overlooked
>             >> > anything,
>             >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
>             >> Slack
>             >> > isn't
>             >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service
>             into rather
>             >> > questionable
>             >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF
>             service. If anyone
>             >> > can
>             >> > >>>> > provide
>             >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing
>             lists, JIRA and
>             >> GitHub.
>             >> > All of
>             >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas
>             the slack channel
>             >> > requires an
>             >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a
>             committer. This
>             >> > minimizes the
>             >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I
>             would much rather
>             >> prefer
>             >> > >>>> > something
>             >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole
>             community. I'll
>             >> > forward this
>             >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > [1]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>             >> > >>>> > [2]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>             >> > >>>> > [3]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>             >> > >>>> > [4]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>             >> > >>>> > [5]
>             >> >
>             https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>             >> chesnay@apache.org
>             >> > >
>             >> > >>>> > wrote:
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML
>             over the years and
>             >> > was
>             >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that
>             would invalidate the
>             >> > >>>> > previously
>             >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1
>             on it.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should
>             decide anyway, but
>             >> the
>             >> > project
>             >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition
>             to the mailing
>             >> list.
>             >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and
>             they are surprised
>             >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would
>             love to use Slack.
>             >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source
>             communities
>             >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and
>             asking people for
>             >> > opinions
>             >> > >>>> > and
>             >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>             >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for
>             Q&A but also a
>             >> > connection to
>             >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>             >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the
>             community have more
>             >> social
>             >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>             >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations,
>             articles, and
>             >> > presentations
>             >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>             >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink
>             slack, and I can help
>             >> set
>             >> > up the
>             >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > Best,
>             >> > >>>> > > Jark
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>             >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>             >> > wrote:
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating
>             an Apache Flink
>             >> slack
>             >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>             >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real
>             time communication
>             >> > through
>             >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for
>             real time
>             >> computing,
>             >> > should
>             >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for
>             communication, especially
>             >> for
>             >> > ad-hoc
>             >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and
>             more contributors
>             >> from
>             >> > >>>> > different
>             >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it
>             would be good to
>             >> > provide a
>             >> > >>>> > common
>             >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications.
>             Therefore, I'd
>             >> > propose to
>             >> > >>>> > create
>             >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is
>             maintained by the
>             >> Flink
>             >> > PMC.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>             >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages
>             are less likely
>             >> > overlooked.
>             >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls,
>             file transmissions
>             >> > that help
>             >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>             >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml,
>             flink-statefun,
>             >> > temporal
>             >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>             >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an
>             extension rather
>             >> than a
>             >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community
>             members should
>             >> still
>             >> > be
>             >> > >>>> > able to
>             >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the
>             mailing lists. That
>             >> means:
>             >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and
>             important opinions
>             >> should
>             >> > be
>             >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After
>             all, according to
>             >> the
>             >> > Apache
>             >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list,
>             it didn’t happen.
>             >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask
>             ad hoc questions on
>             >> > slack.
>             >> > >>>> > Long
>             >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that
>             grow long) should be
>             >> > posted on
>             >> > >>>> > the
>             >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on
>             slack for a real time
>             >> > >>>> > discussion.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>             >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being
>             pinged need to be
>             >> > responsive. We
>             >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all
>             contributors are
>             >> > volunteers.
>             >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication
>             easier only when
>             >> all
>             >> > the
>             >> > >>>> > peers
>             >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear
>             that people should not
>             >> > expect
>             >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>             >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often
>             mentioned with is
>             >> > its lack
>             >> > >>>> > of
>             >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to
>             search among them.
>             >> > There are
>             >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this
>             problem[1]. As a first
>             >> > step, we may
>             >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting
>             things back to the
>             >> > mailing
>             >> > >>>> > lists.
>             >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly
>             reflected back to
>             >> the
>             >> > mailing
>             >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the
>             archivability and
>             >> searchability.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>             >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source
>             projects (Apache
>             >> > hosted or
>             >> > >>>> > not)
>             >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace:
>             AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
>             >> > HBase [4]
>             >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache
>             Flink, we would need
>             >> an
>             >> > official
>             >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But
>             before we get to
>             >> > that, I’d
>             >> > >>>> > like
>             >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>             >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>             >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>             >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>             >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>             >> > >>>> > >>
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> > >
>             >> > >>>> >
>             >> >
>             >>
>             >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[David Anderson <da...@alpinegizmo.com>]

Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the experience
of the Flink China community.

I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions among
the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out for
help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid instance
for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about 2
minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.

David

On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org> wrote:

> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
> people to join our Slack (1)
> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
> expire after 100 guests have joined.
> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we
> update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
> work.
>
>
> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>
>
> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack
>> is indeed not ideal:
>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>
>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you
>>> can
>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.
>>>
>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>> Xintong!
>>> >
>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the
>>> ASF
>>> > Slack instance?
>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>>> quite
>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it,
>>> on a
>>> > voluntary basis.
>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>> >
>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>> "Getting
>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
>>> tools"
>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication,
>>> but
>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>> >
>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that
>>> > goldmine of information.
>>> >
>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>> important
>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>>> > indexing).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>> >>
>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>>> people
>>> >> should / should not do.
>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that
>>> also
>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply
>>> as a
>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>> >>
>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>> that, we
>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>> users,
>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>> archivability and
>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of
>>> them
>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers
>>> with
>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>> mentioned.)
>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs
>>> are
>>> >> now
>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into
>>> the
>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>> community.
>>> >> We
>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>> didn't
>>> >> do
>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>>> >> excited
>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users
>>> than
>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>> solving
>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>> proactively
>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>> compared
>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>> interaction
>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring
>>> such
>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>> >>
>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>> think
>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>> >>
>>> >> Thank you~
>>> >>
>>> >> Xintong Song
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back
>>> and
>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list
>>> and
>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>> >> >
>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I
>>> get a
>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
>>> >> takes
>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>> energy
>>> >> to do
>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a
>>> good
>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request
>>> help
>>> >> from
>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>>> cases
>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>>> going
>>> >> on.
>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
>>> >> when a
>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>> something
>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > David
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>> previous
>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>>> >> channel
>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
>>> >> raised
>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it
>>> has
>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>> people
>>> >> who
>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>>> public
>>> >> > record at all.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC,
>>> some
>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions
>>> of
>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>> starting
>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>>> >> case, we
>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>> >> >
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>>> >> indexed
>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
>>> >> unless
>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>> progressed
>>> >> and
>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
>>> There
>>> >> are
>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I
>>> also
>>> >> see
>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause
>>> a
>>> >> lot
>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a
>>> set of
>>> >> > community rules.
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>>> works
>>> >> > great as
>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>>> >> > searchable
>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long
>>> as
>>> >> the
>>> >> > result
>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>> list/design
>>> >> > doc.
>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>> achieve. In
>>> >> the
>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions
>>> over,
>>> >> > and
>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to
>>> the
>>> >> > previous
>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for
>>> the
>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for
>>> the
>>> >> > users.
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>> oldest/newest
>>> >> > at top)
>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use
>>> case
>>> >> much
>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>> workspace
>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>>> >> > discussed on the
>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
>>> years
>>> >> > ago. On
>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>>> about
>>> >> > whether
>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>>> >> recent
>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>> >> communication
>>> >> > channels
>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>> having
>>> >> such
>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>>> >> projects
>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the
>>> past
>>> >> 4
>>> >> > years.
>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>> members,
>>> >> > and even
>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That
>>> also
>>> >> > means more
>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>> discussion.
>>> >> > Instead of
>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here
>>> we are
>>> >> > proposing
>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>> instead
>>> >> of
>>> >> > *moving*
>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>> >> Workspace
>>> >> > as an
>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1
>>> [1].
>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
>>> >> > anything,
>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
>>> >> Slack
>>> >> > isn't
>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>>> >> > questionable
>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
>>> anyone
>>> >> > can
>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>>> >> GitHub.
>>> >> > All of
>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>> channel
>>> >> > requires an
>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
>>> >> > minimizes the
>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>>> >> prefer
>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community.
>>> I'll
>>> >> > forward this
>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>> years and
>>> >> > was
>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>> invalidate the
>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway,
>>> but
>>> >> the
>>> >> > project
>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
>>> >> list.
>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
>>> Slack.
>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people
>>> for
>>> >> > opinions
>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>>> >> > connection to
>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
>>> >> social
>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>> >> > presentations
>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can
>>> help
>>> >> set
>>> >> > up the
>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
>>> >> slack
>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>> communication
>>> >> > through
>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>> >> computing,
>>> >> > should
>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>> especially
>>> >> for
>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>> contributors
>>> >> from
>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
>>> >> > provide a
>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
>>> >> > propose to
>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
>>> >> Flink
>>> >> > PMC.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>>> >> > overlooked.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>> transmissions
>>> >> > that help
>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
>>> >> > temporal
>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
>>> >> than a
>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
>>> >> still
>>> >> > be
>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
>>> >> means:
>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>>> >> should
>>> >> > be
>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according
>>> to
>>> >> the
>>> >> > Apache
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>> happen.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>> questions on
>>> >> > slack.
>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should
>>> be
>>> >> > posted on
>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real
>>> time
>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>>> >> > responsive. We
>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors
>>> are
>>> >> > volunteers.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only
>>> when
>>> >> all
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>> should not
>>> >> > expect
>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>> with is
>>> >> > its lack
>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
>>> them.
>>> >> > There are
>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>> first
>>> >> > step, we may
>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
>>> >> > mailing
>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back
>>> to
>>> >> the
>>> >> > mailing
>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>> >> searchability.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
>>> >> > hosted or
>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg
>>> [3],
>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would
>>> need
>>> >> an
>>> >> > official
>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get
>>> to
>>> >> > that, I’d
>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[David Anderson <da...@alpinegizmo.com>]

Thank you @Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> for sharing the experience
of the Flink China community.

I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions among
the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out for
help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid instance
for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about 2
minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route.

David

On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org> wrote:

> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for
> people to join our Slack (1)
> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
> expire after 100 guests have joined.
> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we
> update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
> work.
>
>
> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159
>
>
> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack
>> is indeed not ideal:
>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
>> I'll see if we can improve it
>>
>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you
>>> can
>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.
>>>
>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>>> Xintong!
>>> >
>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the
>>> ASF
>>> > Slack instance?
>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>>> quite
>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it,
>>> on a
>>> > voluntary basis.
>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>>> >
>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and
>>> "Getting
>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
>>> tools"
>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication,
>>> but
>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>>> >
>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that
>>> > goldmine of information.
>>> >
>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all
>>> important
>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>>> > indexing).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>> >>
>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>>> people
>>> >> should / should not do.
>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that
>>> also
>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply
>>> as a
>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>> >>
>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>>> that, we
>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>>> users,
>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the
>>> archivability and
>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of
>>> them
>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers
>>> with
>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>>> mentioned.)
>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs
>>> are
>>> >> now
>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into
>>> the
>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>>> >> questions on MLs.
>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>>> community.
>>> >> We
>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>>> didn't
>>> >> do
>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>>> >> excited
>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users
>>> than
>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>>> solving
>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>>> proactively
>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>>> compared
>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>>> interaction
>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring
>>> such
>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>> >>
>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I
>>> think
>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>> >>
>>> >> Thank you~
>>> >>
>>> >> Xintong Song
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back
>>> and
>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list
>>> and
>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>>> >> >
>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <
>>> danderson@apache.org>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I
>>> get a
>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
>>> >> takes
>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective
>>> energy
>>> >> to do
>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a
>>> good
>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request
>>> help
>>> >> from
>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>>> cases
>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>>> going
>>> >> on.
>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
>>> >> when a
>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>>> something
>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > David
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the
>>> previous
>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>>> >> channel
>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
>>> >> raised
>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it
>>> has
>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for
>>> people
>>> >> who
>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>>> public
>>> >> > record at all.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC,
>>> some
>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions
>>> of
>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good
>>> starting
>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>>> >> case, we
>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Thanks,
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>>> martijn@ververica.com
>>> >> >
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>>> >> indexed
>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
>>> >> unless
>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>>> progressed
>>> >> and
>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
>>> There
>>> >> are
>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I
>>> also
>>> >> see
>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause
>>> a
>>> >> lot
>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a
>>> set of
>>> >> > community rules.
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> Martijn
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>>> works
>>> >> > great as
>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>>> >> > searchable
>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long
>>> as
>>> >> the
>>> >> > result
>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>>> list/design
>>> >> > doc.
>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to
>>> achieve. In
>>> >> the
>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions
>>> over,
>>> >> > and
>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to
>>> the
>>> >> > previous
>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for
>>> the
>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for
>>> the
>>> >> > users.
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>>> >> > stackoverflow.
>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>>> oldest/newest
>>> >> > at top)
>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use
>>> case
>>> >> much
>>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> Best,
>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> >> > napisał(a):
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>>> workspace
>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>>> >> > discussed on the
>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
>>> years
>>> >> > ago. On
>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>>> about
>>> >> > whether
>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>>> >> recent
>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>>> >> communication
>>> >> > channels
>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>>> having
>>> >> such
>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>>> >> projects
>>> >> > >>>> > already.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the
>>> past
>>> >> 4
>>> >> > years.
>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>>> members,
>>> >> > and even
>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That
>>> also
>>> >> > means more
>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>>> discussion.
>>> >> > Instead of
>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here
>>> we are
>>> >> > proposing
>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>>> instead
>>> >> of
>>> >> > *moving*
>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>>> >> Workspace
>>> >> > as an
>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1
>>> [1].
>>> >> > IIUR, these
>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
>>> >> > anything,
>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
>>> >> Slack
>>> >> > isn't
>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>>> >> > questionable
>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
>>> anyone
>>> >> > can
>>> >> > >>>> > provide
>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>>> >> GitHub.
>>> >> > All of
>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack
>>> channel
>>> >> > requires an
>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
>>> >> > minimizes the
>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>>> >> prefer
>>> >> > >>>> > something
>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community.
>>> I'll
>>> >> > forward this
>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the
>>> years and
>>> >> > was
>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would
>>> invalidate the
>>> >> > >>>> > previously
>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway,
>>> but
>>> >> the
>>> >> > project
>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
>>> >> list.
>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
>>> Slack.
>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people
>>> for
>>> >> > opinions
>>> >> > >>>> > and
>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>>> >> > connection to
>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
>>> >> social
>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>>> >> > presentations
>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can
>>> help
>>> >> set
>>> >> > up the
>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
>>> >> slack
>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>>> communication
>>> >> > through
>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>>> >> computing,
>>> >> > should
>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>>> especially
>>> >> for
>>> >> > ad-hoc
>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more
>>> contributors
>>> >> from
>>> >> > >>>> > different
>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
>>> >> > provide a
>>> >> > >>>> > common
>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
>>> >> > propose to
>>> >> > >>>> > create
>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
>>> >> Flink
>>> >> > PMC.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>>> >> > overlooked.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>>> transmissions
>>> >> > that help
>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
>>> >> > temporal
>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
>>> >> than a
>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
>>> >> still
>>> >> > be
>>> >> > >>>> > able to
>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
>>> >> means:
>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>>> >> should
>>> >> > be
>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according
>>> to
>>> >> the
>>> >> > Apache
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>>> happen.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc
>>> questions on
>>> >> > slack.
>>> >> > >>>> > Long
>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should
>>> be
>>> >> > posted on
>>> >> > >>>> > the
>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real
>>> time
>>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>>> >> > responsive. We
>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors
>>> are
>>> >> > volunteers.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only
>>> when
>>> >> all
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > >>>> > peers
>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people
>>> should not
>>> >> > expect
>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned
>>> with is
>>> >> > its lack
>>> >> > >>>> > of
>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
>>> them.
>>> >> > There are
>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a
>>> first
>>> >> > step, we may
>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
>>> >> > mailing
>>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back
>>> to
>>> >> the
>>> >> > mailing
>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>>> >> searchability.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
>>> >> > hosted or
>>> >> > >>>> > not)
>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg
>>> [3],
>>> >> > HBase [4]
>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would
>>> need
>>> >> an
>>> >> > official
>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get
>>> to
>>> >> > that, I’d
>>> >> > >>>> > like
>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>> >> > >>>> > >>
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> > >
>>> >> > >>>> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>]

It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for people
to join our Slack (1)
These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
expire after 100 guests have joined.
I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we
update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
work.


(1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159


On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack
> is indeed not ideal:
> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> I'll see if we can improve it
>
> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you
>> can
>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.
>>
>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>> Xintong!
>> >
>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the
>> ASF
>> > Slack instance?
>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>> quite
>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it,
>> on a
>> > voluntary basis.
>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>> >
>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting
>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
>> tools"
>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication,
>> but
>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>> >
>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that
>> > goldmine of information.
>> >
>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important
>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>> > indexing).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>> >>
>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>> people
>> >> should / should not do.
>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that
>> also
>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as
>> a
>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>> >>
>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>> that, we
>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>> users,
>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability
>> and
>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of
>> them
>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers
>> with
>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>> mentioned.)
>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are
>> >> now
>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into
>> the
>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>> >> questions on MLs.
>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>> community.
>> >> We
>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>> didn't
>> >> do
>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>> >> excited
>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users
>> than
>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>> solving
>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>> proactively
>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>> compared
>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>> interaction
>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>> >>
>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>> >>
>> >> Thank you~
>> >>
>> >> Xintong Song
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>> >> >
>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back
>> and
>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>> >> >
>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list
>> and
>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>> >> >
>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <danderson@apache.org
>> >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I
>> get a
>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
>> >> takes
>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy
>> >> to do
>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a
>> good
>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help
>> >> from
>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>> cases
>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>> going
>> >> on.
>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
>> >> when a
>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>> something
>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > David
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>> >> channel
>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
>> >> raised
>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it
>> has
>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people
>> >> who
>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>> public
>> >> > record at all.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC,
>> some
>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions
>> of
>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>> >> case, we
>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Thanks,
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>> martijn@ververica.com
>> >> >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>> >> indexed
>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
>> >> unless
>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>> progressed
>> >> and
>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
>> There
>> >> are
>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I
>> also
>> >> see
>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a
>> >> lot
>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set
>> of
>> >> > community rules.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Martijn
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>> works
>> >> > great as
>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>> >> > searchable
>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as
>> >> the
>> >> > result
>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>> list/design
>> >> > doc.
>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve.
>> In
>> >> the
>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions
>> over,
>> >> > and
>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
>> >> > previous
>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for
>> the
>> >> > users.
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>> >> > stackoverflow.
>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>> oldest/newest
>> >> > at top)
>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case
>> >> much
>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> Best,
>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> >> > napisał(a):
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>> workspace
>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>> >> > discussed on the
>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
>> years
>> >> > ago. On
>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>> about
>> >> > whether
>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>> >> recent
>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>> >> communication
>> >> > channels
>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>> having
>> >> such
>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>> >> projects
>> >> > >>>> > already.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the
>> past
>> >> 4
>> >> > years.
>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>> members,
>> >> > and even
>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
>> >> > means more
>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>> discussion.
>> >> > Instead of
>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we
>> are
>> >> > proposing
>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>> instead
>> >> of
>> >> > *moving*
>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>> >> Workspace
>> >> > as an
>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
>> >> > IIUR, these
>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
>> >> > anything,
>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
>> >> Slack
>> >> > isn't
>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>> >> > questionable
>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
>> anyone
>> >> > can
>> >> > >>>> > provide
>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>> >> GitHub.
>> >> > All of
>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
>> >> > requires an
>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
>> >> > minimizes the
>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>> >> prefer
>> >> > >>>> > something
>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
>> >> > forward this
>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>> >> > >
>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years
>> and
>> >> > was
>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate
>> the
>> >> > >>>> > previously
>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but
>> >> the
>> >> > project
>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
>> >> list.
>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
>> Slack.
>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people
>> for
>> >> > opinions
>> >> > >>>> > and
>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>> >> > connection to
>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
>> >> social
>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>> >> > presentations
>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help
>> >> set
>> >> > up the
>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
>> >> slack
>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>> communication
>> >> > through
>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>> >> computing,
>> >> > should
>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>> especially
>> >> for
>> >> > ad-hoc
>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors
>> >> from
>> >> > >>>> > different
>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
>> >> > provide a
>> >> > >>>> > common
>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
>> >> > propose to
>> >> > >>>> > create
>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
>> >> Flink
>> >> > PMC.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>> >> > overlooked.
>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>> transmissions
>> >> > that help
>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
>> >> > temporal
>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
>> >> than a
>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
>> >> still
>> >> > be
>> >> > >>>> > able to
>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
>> >> means:
>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>> >> should
>> >> > be
>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according
>> to
>> >> the
>> >> > Apache
>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>> happen.
>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions
>> on
>> >> > slack.
>> >> > >>>> > Long
>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should
>> be
>> >> > posted on
>> >> > >>>> > the
>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real
>> time
>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>> >> > responsive. We
>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
>> >> > volunteers.
>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when
>> >> all
>> >> > the
>> >> > >>>> > peers
>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should
>> not
>> >> > expect
>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with
>> is
>> >> > its lack
>> >> > >>>> > of
>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
>> them.
>> >> > There are
>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
>> >> > step, we may
>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
>> >> > mailing
>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to
>> >> the
>> >> > mailing
>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>> >> searchability.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
>> >> > hosted or
>> >> > >>>> > not)
>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg
>> [3],
>> >> > HBase [4]
>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would
>> need
>> >> an
>> >> > official
>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get
>> to
>> >> > that, I’d
>> >> > >>>> > like
>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <rm...@apache.org>]

It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for people
to join our Slack (1)
These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they will
expire after 100 guests have joined.
I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that we
update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but it'll
work.


(1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159


On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack
> is indeed not ideal:
> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
> I'll see if we can improve it
>
> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you
>> can
>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.
>>
>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
>> Xintong!
>> >
>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the
>> ASF
>> > Slack instance?
>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and
>> quite
>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it,
>> on a
>> > voluntary basis.
>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>> >
>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting
>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
>> tools"
>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication,
>> but
>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>> >
>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that
>> > goldmine of information.
>> >
>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important
>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
>> > indexing).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>> >>
>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
>> people
>> >> should / should not do.
>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that
>> also
>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as
>> a
>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>> >>
>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is
>> that, we
>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different
>> users,
>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability
>> and
>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of
>> them
>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers
>> with
>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
>> mentioned.)
>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are
>> >> now
>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into
>> the
>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>> >> questions on MLs.
>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China
>> community.
>> >> We
>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I
>> didn't
>> >> do
>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>> >> excited
>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users
>> than
>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
>> solving
>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
>> proactively
>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
>> compared
>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
>> interaction
>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
>> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
>> >>
>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>> >>
>> >> Thank you~
>> >>
>> >> Xintong Song
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>> >> >
>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back
>> and
>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>> >> >
>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list
>> and
>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>> >> >
>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <danderson@apache.org
>> >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I
>> get a
>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
>> >> takes
>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy
>> >> to do
>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a
>> good
>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help
>> >> from
>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting
>> cases
>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's
>> going
>> >> on.
>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
>> >> when a
>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
>> something
>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > David
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>> >> channel
>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
>> >> raised
>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it
>> has
>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people
>> >> who
>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
>> public
>> >> > record at all.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC,
>> some
>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions
>> of
>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>> >> case, we
>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Thanks,
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
>> martijn@ververica.com
>> >> >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>> >> indexed
>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
>> >> unless
>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
>> progressed
>> >> and
>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
>> There
>> >> are
>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I
>> also
>> >> see
>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a
>> >> lot
>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set
>> of
>> >> > community rules.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Best regards,
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Martijn
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <
>> pnowojski@apache.org>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it
>> works
>> >> > great as
>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>> >> > searchable
>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as
>> >> the
>> >> > result
>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
>> list/design
>> >> > doc.
>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve.
>> In
>> >> the
>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions
>> over,
>> >> > and
>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
>> >> > previous
>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for
>> the
>> >> > users.
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>> >> > stackoverflow.
>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
>> oldest/newest
>> >> > at top)
>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case
>> >> much
>> >> > >>>> better IMO.
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> Best,
>> >> > >>>> Piotrek
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> >> > napisał(a):
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack
>> workspace
>> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>> >> > discussed on the
>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
>> years
>> >> > ago. On
>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions
>> about
>> >> > whether
>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>> >> recent
>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>> >> communication
>> >> > channels
>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to
>> having
>> >> such
>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>> >> projects
>> >> > >>>> > already.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the
>> past
>> >> 4
>> >> > years.
>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
>> members,
>> >> > and even
>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
>> >> > means more
>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous
>> discussion.
>> >> > Instead of
>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we
>> are
>> >> > proposing
>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And
>> instead
>> >> of
>> >> > *moving*
>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>> >> Workspace
>> >> > as an
>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
>> >> > IIUR, these
>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
>> >> > anything,
>> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
>> >> Slack
>> >> > isn't
>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>> >> > questionable
>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
>> anyone
>> >> > can
>> >> > >>>> > provide
>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>> >> GitHub.
>> >> > All of
>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
>> >> > requires an
>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
>> >> > minimizes the
>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>> >> prefer
>> >> > >>>> > something
>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
>> >> > forward this
>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > [1]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>> >> > >>>> > [2]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>> >> > >>>> > [3]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>> >> > >>>> > [4]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>> >> > >>>> > [5]
>> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>> >> chesnay@apache.org
>> >> > >
>> >> > >>>> > wrote:
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years
>> and
>> >> > was
>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate
>> the
>> >> > >>>> > previously
>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but
>> >> the
>> >> > project
>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
>> >> list.
>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
>> Slack.
>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people
>> for
>> >> > opinions
>> >> > >>>> > and
>> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>> >> > connection to
>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
>> >> social
>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>> >> > presentations
>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help
>> >> set
>> >> > up the
>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > Best,
>> >> > >>>> > > Jark
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
>> >> slack
>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
>> communication
>> >> > through
>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>> >> computing,
>> >> > should
>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication,
>> especially
>> >> for
>> >> > ad-hoc
>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors
>> >> from
>> >> > >>>> > different
>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
>> >> > provide a
>> >> > >>>> > common
>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
>> >> > propose to
>> >> > >>>> > create
>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
>> >> Flink
>> >> > PMC.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>> >> > overlooked.
>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file
>> transmissions
>> >> > that help
>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
>> >> > temporal
>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
>> >> than a
>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
>> >> still
>> >> > be
>> >> > >>>> > able to
>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
>> >> means:
>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>> >> should
>> >> > be
>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according
>> to
>> >> the
>> >> > Apache
>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
>> happen.
>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions
>> on
>> >> > slack.
>> >> > >>>> > Long
>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should
>> be
>> >> > posted on
>> >> > >>>> > the
>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real
>> time
>> >> > >>>> > discussion.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>> >> > responsive. We
>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
>> >> > volunteers.
>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when
>> >> all
>> >> > the
>> >> > >>>> > peers
>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should
>> not
>> >> > expect
>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with
>> is
>> >> > its lack
>> >> > >>>> > of
>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
>> them.
>> >> > There are
>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
>> >> > step, we may
>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
>> >> > mailing
>> >> > >>>> > lists.
>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to
>> >> the
>> >> > mailing
>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>> >> searchability.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
>> >> > hosted or
>> >> > >>>> > not)
>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg
>> [3],
>> >> > HBase [4]
>> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would
>> need
>> >> an
>> >> > official
>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get
>> to
>> >> > that, I’d
>> >> > >>>> > like
>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>> >> > >>>> > >>
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> > >
>> >> > >>>> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>]

Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack is
indeed not ideal:
https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
I'll see if we can improve it

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
wrote:

> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you can
> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.
>
> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
> Xintong!
> >
> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the ASF
> > Slack instance?
> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and quite
> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, on
> a
> > voluntary basis.
> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
> >
> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting
> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
> tools"
> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, but
> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
> >
> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that
> > goldmine of information.
> >
> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important
> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
> > indexing).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> >>
> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
> people
> >> should / should not do.
> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that
> also
> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a
> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
> >>
> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that,
> we
> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users,
> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability
> and
> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of
> them
> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers
> with
> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
> mentioned.)
> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are
> >> now
> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the
> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
> >> questions on MLs.
> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community.
> >> We
> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't
> >> do
> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
> >> excited
> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users
> than
> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
> solving
> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
> proactively
> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
> compared
> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
> interaction
> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> >>
> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
> >>
> >> Thank you~
> >>
> >> Xintong Song
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> >> >
> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> >> >
> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
> >> >
> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> >> > >
> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get
> a
> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> >> > >
> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
> >> takes
> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy
> >> to do
> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good
> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help
> >> from
> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> >> > >
> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases
> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going
> >> on.
> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
> >> when a
> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
> something
> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
> >> > >
> >> > > David
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
> >> channel
> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
> >> raised
> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it
> has
> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people
> >> who
> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
> public
> >> > record at all.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC,
> some
> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of
> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
> >> case, we
> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Thanks,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> martijn@ververica.com
> >> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
> >> indexed
> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
> >> unless
> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
> progressed
> >> and
> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
> There
> >> are
> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I
> also
> >> see
> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a
> >> lot
> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set
> of
> >> > community rules.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Best regards,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Martijn
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pnowojski@apache.org
> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works
> >> > great as
> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
> >> > searchable
> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as
> >> the
> >> > result
> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
> list/design
> >> > doc.
> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve.
> In
> >> the
> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions
> over,
> >> > and
> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
> >> > previous
> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the
> >> > users.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
> >> > stackoverflow.
> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
> oldest/newest
> >> > at top)
> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case
> >> much
> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Best,
> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >> > napisał(a):
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
> >> > discussed on the
> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
> years
> >> > ago. On
> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about
> >> > whether
> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
> >> recent
> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
> >> communication
> >> > channels
> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having
> >> such
> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
> >> projects
> >> > >>>> > already.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the
> past
> >> 4
> >> > years.
> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
> members,
> >> > and even
> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
> >> > means more
> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
> >> > Instead of
> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we
> are
> >> > proposing
> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead
> >> of
> >> > *moving*
> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
> >> Workspace
> >> > as an
> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
> >> > IIUR, these
> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
> >> > anything,
> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
> >> Slack
> >> > isn't
> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
> >> > questionable
> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
> anyone
> >> > can
> >> > >>>> > provide
> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
> >> GitHub.
> >> > All of
> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
> >> > requires an
> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
> >> > minimizes the
> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
> >> prefer
> >> > >>>> > something
> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
> >> > forward this
> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > [1]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> >> > >>>> > [2]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> >> > >>>> > [3]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> >> > >>>> > [4]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> >> > >>>> > [5]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> >> chesnay@apache.org
> >> > >
> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years
> and
> >> > was
> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate
> the
> >> > >>>> > previously
> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but
> >> the
> >> > project
> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
> >> list.
> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
> Slack.
> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
> >> > opinions
> >> > >>>> > and
> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
> >> > connection to
> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
> >> social
> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
> >> > presentations
> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help
> >> set
> >> > up the
> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
> >> slack
> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
> communication
> >> > through
> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
> >> computing,
> >> > should
> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially
> >> for
> >> > ad-hoc
> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors
> >> from
> >> > >>>> > different
> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
> >> > provide a
> >> > >>>> > common
> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
> >> > propose to
> >> > >>>> > create
> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
> >> Flink
> >> > PMC.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
> >> > overlooked.
> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions
> >> > that help
> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
> >> > temporal
> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
> >> than a
> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
> >> still
> >> > be
> >> > >>>> > able to
> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
> >> means:
> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
> >> should
> >> > be
> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to
> >> the
> >> > Apache
> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
> happen.
> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions
> on
> >> > slack.
> >> > >>>> > Long
> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be
> >> > posted on
> >> > >>>> > the
> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real
> time
> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
> >> > responsive. We
> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
> >> > volunteers.
> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when
> >> all
> >> > the
> >> > >>>> > peers
> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should
> not
> >> > expect
> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with
> is
> >> > its lack
> >> > >>>> > of
> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
> them.
> >> > There are
> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
> >> > step, we may
> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
> >> > mailing
> >> > >>>> > lists.
> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to
> >> the
> >> > mailing
> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
> >> searchability.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
> >> > hosted or
> >> > >>>> > not)
> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg
> [3],
> >> > HBase [4]
> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need
> >> an
> >> > official
> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to
> >> > that, I’d
> >> > >>>> > like
> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>]

Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack is
indeed not ideal:
https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel
I'll see if we can improve it

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>
wrote:

> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you can
> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.
>
> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary
> Xintong!
> >
> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the ASF
> > Slack instance?
> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and quite
> > a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, on
> a
> > voluntary basis.
> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
> >
> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting
> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth
> tools"
> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, but
> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
> >
> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that
> > goldmine of information.
> >
> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important
> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
> > indexing).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
> >>
> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what
> people
> >> should / should not do.
> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that
> also
> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a
> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
> >>
> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that,
> we
> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users,
> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability
> and
> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of
> them
> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers
> with
> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David
> mentioned.)
> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are
> >> now
> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the
> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
> >> questions on MLs.
> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community.
> >> We
> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't
> >> do
> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
> >> excited
> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users
> than
> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and
> solving
> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not
> proactively
> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active
> compared
> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of
> interaction
> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
> >> success to the global English-speaking community.
> >>
> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
> >>
> >> Thank you~
> >>
> >> Xintong Song
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://zapier.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> >> >
> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> >> >
> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
> >> >
> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> >> > >
> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get
> a
> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> >> > >
> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
> >> takes
> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy
> >> to do
> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good
> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help
> >> from
> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> >> > >
> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases
> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going
> >> on.
> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
> >> when a
> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances,
> something
> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
> >> > >
> >> > > David
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
> >> channel
> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
> >> raised
> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it
> has
> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people
> >> who
> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no
> public
> >> > record at all.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC,
> some
> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of
> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
> >> case, we
> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Thanks,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <
> martijn@ververica.com
> >> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Hi everyone,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
> >> indexed
> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
> >> unless
> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has
> progressed
> >> and
> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users.
> There
> >> are
> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I
> also
> >> see
> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a
> >> lot
> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set
> of
> >> > community rules.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Best regards,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Martijn
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pnowojski@apache.org
> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works
> >> > great as
> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
> >> > searchable
> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as
> >> the
> >> > result
> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing
> list/design
> >> > doc.
> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve.
> In
> >> the
> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions
> over,
> >> > and
> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
> >> > previous
> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the
> >> > users.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
> >> > stackoverflow.
> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the
> oldest/newest
> >> > at top)
> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case
> >> much
> >> > >>>> better IMO.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Best,
> >> > >>>> Piotrek
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >> > napisał(a):
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
> >> > discussed on the
> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4
> years
> >> > ago. On
> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about
> >> > whether
> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
> >> recent
> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
> >> communication
> >> > channels
> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having
> >> such
> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
> >> projects
> >> > >>>> > already.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the
> past
> >> 4
> >> > years.
> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC
> members,
> >> > and even
> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
> >> > means more
> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
> >> > Instead of
> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we
> are
> >> > proposing
> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead
> >> of
> >> > *moving*
> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
> >> Workspace
> >> > as an
> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
> >> > IIUR, these
> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
> >> > anything,
> >> > >>>> > please let me know.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
> >> Slack
> >> > isn't
> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
> >> > questionable
> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If
> anyone
> >> > can
> >> > >>>> > provide
> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
> >> GitHub.
> >> > All of
> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
> >> > requires an
> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
> >> > minimizes the
> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
> >> prefer
> >> > >>>> > something
> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
> >> > forward this
> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Thank you~
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > [1]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> >> > >>>> > [2]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> >> > >>>> > [3]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> >> > >>>> > [4]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> >> > >>>> > [5]
> >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> >> chesnay@apache.org
> >> > >
> >> > >>>> > wrote:
> >> > >>>> >
> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years
> and
> >> > was
> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate
> the
> >> > >>>> > previously
> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but
> >> the
> >> > project
> >> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
> >> list.
> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use
> Slack.
> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
> >> > opinions
> >> > >>>> > and
> >> > >>>> > > use cases.
> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
> >> > connection to
> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
> >> social
> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> >> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
> >> > presentations
> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help
> >> set
> >> > up the
> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > Best,
> >> > >>>> > > Jark
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> >> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
> >> slack
> >> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time
> communication
> >> > through
> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
> >> computing,
> >> > should
> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially
> >> for
> >> > ad-hoc
> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors
> >> from
> >> > >>>> > different
> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
> >> > provide a
> >> > >>>> > common
> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
> >> > propose to
> >> > >>>> > create
> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
> >> Flink
> >> > PMC.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
> >> > overlooked.
> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions
> >> > that help
> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
> >> > temporal
> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
> >> than a
> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
> >> still
> >> > be
> >> > >>>> > able to
> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
> >> means:
> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
> >> should
> >> > be
> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to
> >> the
> >> > Apache
> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t
> happen.
> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions
> on
> >> > slack.
> >> > >>>> > Long
> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be
> >> > posted on
> >> > >>>> > the
> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real
> time
> >> > >>>> > discussion.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
> >> > responsive. We
> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
> >> > volunteers.
> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when
> >> all
> >> > the
> >> > >>>> > peers
> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should
> not
> >> > expect
> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with
> is
> >> > its lack
> >> > >>>> > of
> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among
> them.
> >> > There are
> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
> >> > step, we may
> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
> >> > mailing
> >> > >>>> > lists.
> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to
> >> the
> >> > mailing
> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
> >> searchability.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
> >> > hosted or
> >> > >>>> > not)
> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg
> [3],
> >> > HBase [4]
> >> > >>>> > >> etc.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need
> >> an
> >> > official
> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to
> >> > that, I’d
> >> > >>>> > like
> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >> > >>>> > >> [4]
> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >> > >>>> > >>
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> > >
> >> > >>>> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>]

As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you can
only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.

On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary Xintong!
>
> Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the ASF
> Slack instance?
> The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and quite
> a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
> leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, on a
> voluntary basis.
> We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
> discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>
> If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting
> Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth tools"
> in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, but
> it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>
> All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
> I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
> volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
> The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
> experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
> stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that
> goldmine of information.
>
> Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
> revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important
> decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
> benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
> developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
> indexing).
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>
>> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what people
>> should / should not do.
>> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that also
>> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a
>> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>
>> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, we
>> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users,
>> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability and
>> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of them
>> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
>> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers with
>> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
>> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David mentioned.)
>> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are
>> now
>> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the
>> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>> questions on MLs.
>> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community.
>> We
>> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't
>> do
>> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>> excited
>> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users than
>> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and solving
>> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not proactively
>> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active compared
>> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of interaction
>> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
>> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
>> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>
>> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
>> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
>> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>
>> Thank you~
>>
>> Xintong Song
>>
>>
>> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>> >
>> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
>> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>> >
>> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
>> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>> >
>> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>> > >
>> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a
>> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
>> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>> > >
>> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
>> takes
>> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy
>> to do
>> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good
>> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help
>> from
>> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>> > >
>> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases
>> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going
>> on.
>> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
>> when a
>> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something
>> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>> > >
>> > > David
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>> > >>
>> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
>> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>> channel
>> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
>> raised
>> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>> > >>
>> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
>> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people
>> who
>> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
>> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
>> > record at all.
>> > >>
>> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some
>> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of
>> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
>> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>> case, we
>> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks,
>> > >>
>> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>> > >>
>> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <martijn@ververica.com
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Hi everyone,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>> indexed
>> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
>> unless
>> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed
>> and
>> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There
>> are
>> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also
>> see
>> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a
>> lot
>> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
>> > community rules.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Best regards,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Martijn
>> > >>>
>> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works
>> > great as
>> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>> > searchable
>> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as
>> the
>> > result
>> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design
>> > doc.
>> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In
>> the
>> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over,
>> > and
>> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
>> > previous
>> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the
>> > users.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>> > stackoverflow.
>> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest
>> > at top)
>> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case
>> much
>> > >>>> better IMO.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Best,
>> > >>>> Piotrek
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > napisał(a):
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>> > discussed on the
>> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years
>> > ago. On
>> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about
>> > whether
>> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>> recent
>> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>> communication
>> > channels
>> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having
>> such
>> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>> projects
>> > >>>> > already.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past
>> 4
>> > years.
>> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members,
>> > and even
>> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
>> > means more
>> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
>> > Instead of
>> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
>> > proposing
>> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead
>> of
>> > *moving*
>> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>> Workspace
>> > as an
>> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
>> > IIUR, these
>> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
>> > anything,
>> > >>>> > please let me know.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
>> Slack
>> > isn't
>> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>> > questionable
>> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone
>> > can
>> > >>>> > provide
>> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>> GitHub.
>> > All of
>> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
>> > requires an
>> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
>> > minimizes the
>> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>> prefer
>> > >>>> > something
>> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
>> > forward this
>> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > [1]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>> > >>>> > [2]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>> > >>>> > [3]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>> > >>>> > [4]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>> > >>>> > [5]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>> chesnay@apache.org
>> > >
>> > >>>> > wrote:
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and
>> > was
>> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
>> > >>>> > previously
>> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but
>> the
>> > project
>> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
>> list.
>> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
>> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
>> > opinions
>> > >>>> > and
>> > >>>> > > use cases.
>> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>> > connection to
>> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
>> social
>> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>> > presentations
>> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help
>> set
>> > up the
>> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Best,
>> > >>>> > > Jark
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
>> slack
>> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication
>> > through
>> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>> computing,
>> > should
>> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially
>> for
>> > ad-hoc
>> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors
>> from
>> > >>>> > different
>> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
>> > provide a
>> > >>>> > common
>> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
>> > propose to
>> > >>>> > create
>> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
>> Flink
>> > PMC.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>> > overlooked.
>> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions
>> > that help
>> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
>> > temporal
>> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
>> than a
>> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
>> still
>> > be
>> > >>>> > able to
>> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
>> means:
>> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>> should
>> > be
>> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to
>> the
>> > Apache
>> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on
>> > slack.
>> > >>>> > Long
>> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be
>> > posted on
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
>> > >>>> > discussion.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>> > responsive. We
>> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
>> > volunteers.
>> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when
>> all
>> > the
>> > >>>> > peers
>> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not
>> > expect
>> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is
>> > its lack
>> > >>>> > of
>> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them.
>> > There are
>> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
>> > step, we may
>> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
>> > mailing
>> > >>>> > lists.
>> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to
>> the
>> > mailing
>> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>> searchability.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
>> > hosted or
>> > >>>> > not)
>> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
>> > HBase [4]
>> > >>>> > >> etc.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need
>> an
>> > official
>> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to
>> > that, I’d
>> > >>>> > like
>> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > >>>> > >> [4]
>> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> >
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Martijn Visser <ma...@apache.org>]

As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you can
only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer.

On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary Xintong!
>
> Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the ASF
> Slack instance?
> The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and quite
> a few people are already on that Slack instance.
> There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
> leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, on a
> voluntary basis.
> We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
> discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.
>
> If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting
> Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth tools"
> in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, but
> it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)
>
> All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
> I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
> If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
> volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
> The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad
> experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced
> stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that
> goldmine of information.
>
> Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
> revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important
> decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
> benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
> developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
> indexing).
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>>
>> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
>> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
>> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what people
>> should / should not do.
>> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that also
>> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a
>> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>>
>> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, we
>> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users,
>> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
>> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability and
>> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of them
>> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
>> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
>> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers with
>> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
>> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David mentioned.)
>> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are
>> now
>> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the
>> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
>> questions on MLs.
>> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community.
>> We
>> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't
>> do
>> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really
>> excited
>> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users than
>> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
>> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and solving
>> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not proactively
>> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active compared
>> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of interaction
>> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
>> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
>> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
>> success to the global English-speaking community.
>>
>> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
>> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
>> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>>
>> Thank you~
>>
>> Xintong Song
>>
>>
>> [1] https://zapier.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
>> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
>> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
>> >
>> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
>> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>> >
>> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
>> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
>> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
>> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
>> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>> >
>> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
>> > >
>> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a
>> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
>> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>> > >
>> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
>> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
>> takes
>> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy
>> to do
>> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good
>> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help
>> from
>> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
>> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>> > >
>> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases
>> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going
>> on.
>> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or
>> when a
>> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something
>> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>> > >
>> > > David
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>> > >>
>> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
>> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
>> channel
>> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
>> raised
>> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
>> > >>
>> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
>> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people
>> who
>> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
>> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
>> > record at all.
>> > >>
>> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some
>> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of
>> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
>> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst
>> case, we
>> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks,
>> > >>
>> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>> > >>
>> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <martijn@ververica.com
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Hi everyone,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
>> indexed
>> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
>> unless
>> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed
>> and
>> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There
>> are
>> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also
>> see
>> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a
>> lot
>> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
>> > community rules.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Best regards,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Martijn
>> > >>>
>> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works
>> > great as
>> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
>> > searchable
>> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as
>> the
>> > result
>> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design
>> > doc.
>> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In
>> the
>> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over,
>> > and
>> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
>> > previous
>> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the
>> > users.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
>> > stackoverflow.
>> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest
>> > at top)
>> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case
>> much
>> > >>>> better IMO.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Best,
>> > >>>> Piotrek
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > napisał(a):
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
>> > discussed on the
>> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years
>> > ago. On
>> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about
>> > whether
>> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a
>> recent
>> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative
>> communication
>> > channels
>> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having
>> such
>> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
>> projects
>> > >>>> > already.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past
>> 4
>> > years.
>> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members,
>> > and even
>> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
>> > means more
>> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
>> > Instead of
>> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
>> > proposing
>> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead
>> of
>> > *moving*
>> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack
>> Workspace
>> > as an
>> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
>> > IIUR, these
>> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
>> > anything,
>> > >>>> > please let me know.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
>> Slack
>> > isn't
>> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
>> > questionable
>> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone
>> > can
>> > >>>> > provide
>> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
>> GitHub.
>> > All of
>> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
>> > requires an
>> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
>> > minimizes the
>> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather
>> prefer
>> > >>>> > something
>> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
>> > forward this
>> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Thank you~
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > Xintong Song
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > [1]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>> > >>>> > [2]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>> > >>>> > [3]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>> > >>>> > [4]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>> > >>>> > [5]
>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>> chesnay@apache.org
>> > >
>> > >>>> > wrote:
>> > >>>> >
>> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and
>> > was
>> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
>> > >>>> > previously
>> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but
>> the
>> > project
>> > >>>> > > as a whole.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
>> list.
>> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
>> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
>> > opinions
>> > >>>> > and
>> > >>>> > > use cases.
>> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>> > connection to
>> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
>> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
>> social
>> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
>> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
>> > presentations
>> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help
>> set
>> > up the
>> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > Best,
>> > >>>> > > Jark
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
>> tonysong820@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
>> slack
>> > >>>> > >> workspace.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
>> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication
>> > through
>> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time
>> computing,
>> > should
>> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially
>> for
>> > ad-hoc
>> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors
>> from
>> > >>>> > different
>> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
>> > provide a
>> > >>>> > common
>> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
>> > propose to
>> > >>>> > create
>> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the
>> Flink
>> > PMC.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
>> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>> > overlooked.
>> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions
>> > that help
>> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
>> > temporal
>> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather
>> than a
>> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
>> still
>> > be
>> > >>>> > able to
>> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
>> means:
>> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions
>> should
>> > be
>> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to
>> the
>> > Apache
>> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on
>> > slack.
>> > >>>> > Long
>> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be
>> > posted on
>> > >>>> > the
>> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
>> > >>>> > discussion.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>> > responsive. We
>> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
>> > volunteers.
>> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when
>> all
>> > the
>> > >>>> > peers
>> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not
>> > expect
>> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is
>> > its lack
>> > >>>> > of
>> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them.
>> > There are
>> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
>> > step, we may
>> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
>> > mailing
>> > >>>> > lists.
>> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to
>> the
>> > mailing
>> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
>> searchability.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
>> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
>> > hosted or
>> > >>>> > not)
>> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
>> > HBase [4]
>> > >>>> > >> etc.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need
>> an
>> > official
>> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to
>> > that, I’d
>> > >>>> > like
>> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > >>>> > >> [4]
>> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>> > >>>> > >>
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> > >
>> > >>>> >
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>]

Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary Xintong!

Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the ASF
Slack instance?
The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and quite a
few people are already on that Slack instance.
There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, on a
voluntary basis.
We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.

If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting
Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth tools"
in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, but
it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)

All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad experiences
with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced stuff is hidden
in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that goldmine of
information.

Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important
decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
indexing).





On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>
> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what people
> should / should not do.
> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that also
> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a
> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>
> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, we
> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users,
> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability and
> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of them
> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers with
> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David mentioned.)
> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are now
> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the
> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
> questions on MLs.
> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community. We
> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't do
> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really excited
> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users than
> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and solving
> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not proactively
> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active compared
> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of interaction
> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
> success to the global English-speaking community.
>
> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
> [1] https://zapier.com/
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> >
> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> >
> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
> >
> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> >
> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> > >
> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a
> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> > >
> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
> takes
> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to
> do
> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good
> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help
> from
> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases
> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going
> on.
> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when
> a
> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something
> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> > >>
> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
> channel
> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
> raised
> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> > >>
> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who
> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
> > record at all.
> > >>
> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some
> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of
> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case,
> we
> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > >>>
> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
> indexed
> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
> unless
> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed
> and
> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There
> are
> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also
> see
> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> > >>>
> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
> > community rules.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>>
> > >>> Martijn
> > >>>
> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> > >>>
> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works
> > great as
> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
> > searchable
> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the
> > result
> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design
> > doc.
> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In
> the
> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over,
> > and
> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
> > previous
> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the
> > users.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
> > stackoverflow.
> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest
> > at top)
> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case
> much
> > >>>> better IMO.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>> Piotrek
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > napisał(a):
> > >>>>
> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
> > discussed on the
> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years
> > ago. On
> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about
> > whether
> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
> > channels
> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having
> such
> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
> projects
> > >>>> > already.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4
> > years.
> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members,
> > and even
> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
> > means more
> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
> > Instead of
> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
> > proposing
> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
> > *moving*
> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace
> > as an
> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
> > IIUR, these
> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
> > anything,
> > >>>> > please let me know.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
> Slack
> > isn't
> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
> > questionable
> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone
> > can
> > >>>> > provide
> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
> GitHub.
> > All of
> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
> > requires an
> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
> > minimizes the
> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
> > >>>> > something
> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
> > forward this
> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > [1]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > >>>> > [2]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > >>>> > [3]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > >>>> > [4]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > >>>> > [5]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> chesnay@apache.org
> > >
> > >>>> > wrote:
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and
> > was
> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
> > >>>> > previously
> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
> > project
> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
> list.
> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
> > opinions
> > >>>> > and
> > >>>> > > use cases.
> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
> > connection to
> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
> social
> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
> > presentations
> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set
> > up the
> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Best,
> > >>>> > > Jark
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
> slack
> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication
> > through
> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing,
> > should
> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially
> for
> > ad-hoc
> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors
> from
> > >>>> > different
> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
> > provide a
> > >>>> > common
> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
> > propose to
> > >>>> > create
> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink
> > PMC.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
> > overlooked.
> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions
> > that help
> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
> > temporal
> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than
> a
> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
> still
> > be
> > >>>> > able to
> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
> means:
> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should
> > be
> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to
> the
> > Apache
> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on
> > slack.
> > >>>> > Long
> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be
> > posted on
> > >>>> > the
> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
> > >>>> > discussion.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
> > responsive. We
> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
> > volunteers.
> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all
> > the
> > >>>> > peers
> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not
> > expect
> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is
> > its lack
> > >>>> > of
> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them.
> > There are
> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
> > step, we may
> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
> > mailing
> > >>>> > lists.
> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
> > mailing
> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
> searchability.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
> > hosted or
> > >>>> > not)
> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
> > HBase [4]
> > >>>> > >> etc.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
> > official
> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to
> > that, I’d
> > >>>> > like
> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Robert Metzger <me...@gmail.com>]

Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary Xintong!

Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the ASF
Slack instance?
The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and quite a
few people are already on that Slack instance.
There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could
leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, on a
voluntary basis.
We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer
discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat.

If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting
Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth tools"
in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, but
it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs)

All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable.
I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining
http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org.
If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some
volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool.
The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad experiences
with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced stuff is hidden
in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that goldmine of
information.

Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest
revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important
decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the
benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and
developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers,
indexing).





On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks all for the valuable feedback.
>
> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what people
> should / should not do.
> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that also
> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a
> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.
>
> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, we
> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users,
> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability and
> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of them
> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers with
> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David mentioned.)
> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are now
> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the
> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
> questions on MLs.
> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community. We
> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't do
> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really excited
> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users than
> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and solving
> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not proactively
> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active compared
> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of interaction
> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
> success to the global English-speaking community.
>
> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
> [1] https://zapier.com/
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
> > So I think slack can be worth trying.
> >
> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
> > forth, slack communication will be more effective.
> >
> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
> >
> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
> >
> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I have mixed feelings about this.
> > >
> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a
> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> > >
> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise
> takes
> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to
> do
> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good
> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help
> from
> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing
> > communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases
> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going
> on.
> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when
> a
> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something
> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> > >>
> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack
> channel
> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is
> raised
> > once a while indicates lasting interests.
> > >>
> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who
> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
> > record at all.
> > >>
> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some
> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of
> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case,
> we
> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi everyone,
> > >>>
> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not
> indexed
> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content
> unless
> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed
> and
> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There
> are
> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also
> see
> > it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> > >>>
> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
> > community rules.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>>
> > >>> Martijn
> > >>>
> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> > >>>
> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Xintong,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works
> > great as
> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
> > searchable
> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the
> > result
> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design
> > doc.
> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In
> the
> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over,
> > and
> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
> > previous
> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the
> > users.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
> > stackoverflow.
> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest
> > at top)
> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case
> much
> > >>>> better IMO.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>> Piotrek
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > napisał(a):
> > >>>>
> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> > >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
> > discussed on the
> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years
> > ago. On
> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about
> > whether
> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
> > channels
> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having
> such
> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many
> projects
> > >>>> > already.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4
> > years.
> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members,
> > and even
> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
> > means more
> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
> > Instead of
> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
> > proposing
> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
> > *moving*
> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace
> > as an
> > >>>> > addition to the ML.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
> > IIUR, these
> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
> > anything,
> > >>>> > please let me know.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF
> Slack
> > isn't
> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
> > questionable
> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone
> > can
> > >>>> > provide
> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and
> GitHub.
> > All of
> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
> > requires an
> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
> > minimizes the
> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
> > >>>> > something
> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
> > forward this
> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Thank you~
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Xintong Song
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > [1]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > >>>> > [2]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > >>>> > [3]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > >>>> > [4]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > >>>> > [5]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> chesnay@apache.org
> > >
> > >>>> > wrote:
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and
> > was
> > >>>> > > rejected every time.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
> > >>>> > previously
> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
> > project
> > >>>> > > as a whole.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing
> list.
> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
> > opinions
> > >>>> > and
> > >>>> > > use cases.
> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
> > connection to
> > >>>> > > the Flink users.
> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more
> social
> > >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> > >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
> > presentations
> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set
> > up the
> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > Best,
> > >>>> > > Jark
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <
> tonysong820@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > >> Hi all,
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink
> slack
> > >>>> > >> workspace.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication
> > through
> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing,
> > should
> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially
> for
> > ad-hoc
> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors
> from
> > >>>> > different
> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
> > provide a
> > >>>> > common
> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
> > propose to
> > >>>> > create
> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink
> > PMC.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
> > overlooked.
> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions
> > that help
> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
> > temporal
> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than
> a
> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should
> still
> > be
> > >>>> > able to
> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That
> means:
> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should
> > be
> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to
> the
> > Apache
> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on
> > slack.
> > >>>> > Long
> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be
> > posted on
> > >>>> > the
> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
> > >>>> > discussion.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
> > responsive. We
> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
> > volunteers.
> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all
> > the
> > >>>> > peers
> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not
> > expect
> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is
> > its lack
> > >>>> > of
> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them.
> > There are
> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
> > step, we may
> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
> > mailing
> > >>>> > lists.
> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
> > mailing
> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and
> searchability.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
> > hosted or
> > >>>> > not)
> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
> > HBase [4]
> > >>>> > >> etc.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
> > official
> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to
> > that, I’d
> > >>>> > like
> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> Thank you~
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > >>>> > >>
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> > >
> > >>>> >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>]

Thanks all for the valuable feedback.

It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
- We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what people
should / should not do.
- Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that also
happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a
"soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.

Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, we
may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users,
due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability and
searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of them
seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
- The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
*efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers with
instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
(Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David mentioned.)
It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are now
guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the
code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
questions on MLs.
- I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community. We
have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't do
deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really excited
about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users than
between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and solving
problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not proactively
joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active compared
to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of interaction
experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
success to the global English-speaking community.

Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.

Thank you~

Xintong Song


[1] https://zapier.com/



On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
> channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
> So I think slack can be worth trying.
>
> David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
> forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>
> But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
> enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
> discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
> stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>
> [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have mixed feelings about this.
> >
> > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a
> lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
> platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> >
> > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
> frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise takes
> the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to do
> more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good
> place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help from
> those who are already actively providing support on the existing
> communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> >
> > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases
> where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going on.
> This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when a
> difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something
> like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
> >
> > David
> >
> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> >>
> >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
> discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel
> as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised
> once a while indicates lasting interests.
> >>
> >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
> drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who
> prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
> discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
> record at all.
> >>
> >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some
> kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of
> ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
> points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we
> can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >>
> >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed
> by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless
> you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and
> that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are
> other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see
> it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> >>>
> >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
> reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
> of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
> community rules.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Martijn
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Xintong,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works
> great as
> >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
> searchable
> >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the
> result
> >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design
> doc.
> >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
> >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over,
> and
> >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
> previous
> >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
> >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the
> users.
> >>>>
> >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
> stackoverflow.
> >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest
> at top)
> >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
> >>>> better IMO.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Piotrek
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> napisał(a):
> >>>>
> >>>> > Thank you~
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
> discussed on the
> >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years
> ago. On
> >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about
> whether
> >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
> >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
> channels
> >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
> >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
> >>>> > already.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4
> years.
> >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members,
> and even
> >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
> means more
> >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
> Instead of
> >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
> proposing
> >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
> *moving*
> >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace
> as an
> >>>> > addition to the ML.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
> IIUR, these
> >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
> anything,
> >>>> > please let me know.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack
> isn't
> >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
> questionable
> >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone
> can
> >>>> > provide
> >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub.
> All of
> >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
> requires an
> >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
> minimizes the
> >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
> >>>> > something
> >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
> forward this
> >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Thank you~
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > [1]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> >>>> > [2]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> >>>> > [3]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> >>>> > [4]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> >>>> > [5]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <chesnay@apache.org
> >
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and
> was
> >>>> > > rejected every time.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
> >>>> > previously
> >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
> project
> >>>> > > as a whole.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
> >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
> opinions
> >>>> > and
> >>>> > > use cases.
> >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
> connection to
> >>>> > > the Flink users.
> >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
> >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
> presentations
> >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set
> up the
> >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Best,
> >>>> > > Jark
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >> Hi all,
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
> >>>> > >> workspace.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication
> through
> >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing,
> should
> >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for
> ad-hoc
> >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
> >>>> > different
> >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
> provide a
> >>>> > common
> >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
> propose to
> >>>> > create
> >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink
> PMC.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
> overlooked.
> >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions
> that help
> >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
> temporal
> >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
> >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still
> be
> >>>> > able to
> >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
> >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should
> be
> >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the
> Apache
> >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
> >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on
> slack.
> >>>> > Long
> >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be
> posted on
> >>>> > the
> >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
> >>>> > discussion.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
> responsive. We
> >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
> volunteers.
> >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all
> the
> >>>> > peers
> >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not
> expect
> >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is
> its lack
> >>>> > of
> >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them.
> There are
> >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
> step, we may
> >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
> mailing
> >>>> > lists.
> >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
> mailing
> >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
> hosted or
> >>>> > not)
> >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
> HBase [4]
> >>>> > >> etc.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
> official
> >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to
> that, I’d
> >>>> > like
> >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Thank you~
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>]

Thanks all for the valuable feedback.

It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev
discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs.
- We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what people
should / should not do.
- Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that also
happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a
"soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct.

Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, we
may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users,
due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical
conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability and
searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of them
seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments.
- The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By
*efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers with
instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc.
(Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David mentioned.)
It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are now
guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the
code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate
questions on MLs.
- I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community. We
have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't do
deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really excited
about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users than
between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing
experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and solving
problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not proactively
joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active compared
to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of interaction
experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked &
answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a
self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such
success to the global English-speaking community.

Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the
community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think
Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive.

Thank you~

Xintong Song


[1] https://zapier.com/



On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
> channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
> So I think slack can be worth trying.
>
> David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
> forth, slack communication will be more effective.
>
> But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
> enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
> discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
> And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
> stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).
>
> [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have mixed feelings about this.
> >
> > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a
> lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a
> platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
> >
> > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow
> frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise takes
> the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to do
> more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good
> place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help from
> those who are already actively providing support on the existing
> communication channels might just lead to burnout.
> >
> > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases
> where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going on.
> This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when a
> difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something
> like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
> >
> > David
> >
> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
> >>
> >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
> discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel
> as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised
> once a while indicates lasting interests.
> >>
> >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
> drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who
> prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
> discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
> record at all.
> >>
> >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some
> kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of
> ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting
> points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we
> can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >>
> >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed
> by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless
> you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and
> that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are
> other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see
> it as a potential option to create a more active community.
> >>>
> >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
> reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
> of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
> community rules.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Martijn
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Xintong,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works
> great as
> >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not
> searchable
> >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the
> result
> >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design
> doc.
> >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
> >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over,
> and
> >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the
> previous
> >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
> >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the
> users.
> >>>>
> >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example,
> stackoverflow.
> >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest
> at top)
> >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
> >>>> better IMO.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Piotrek
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> napisał(a):
> >>>>
> >>>> > Thank you~
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> >>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> >>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Hi Chesnay,
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly*
> discussed on the
> >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years
> ago. On
> >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about
> whether
> >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
> >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
> channels
> >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
> >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
> >>>> > already.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4
> years.
> >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members,
> and even
> >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also
> means more
> >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
> Instead of
> >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
> proposing
> >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
> *moving*
> >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace
> as an
> >>>> > addition to the ML.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1].
> IIUR, these
> >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked
> anything,
> >>>> > please let me know.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack
> isn't
> >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather
> questionable
> >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone
> can
> >>>> > provide
> >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub.
> All of
> >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
> requires an
> >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
> minimizes the
> >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
> >>>> > something
> >>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll
> forward this
> >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Thank you~
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Xintong Song
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > [1]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> >>>> > [2]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> >>>> > [3]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> >>>> > [4]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> >>>> > [5]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <chesnay@apache.org
> >
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and
> was
> >>>> > > rejected every time.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
> >>>> > previously
> >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
> project
> >>>> > > as a whole.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
> >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
> opinions
> >>>> > and
> >>>> > > use cases.
> >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
> connection to
> >>>> > > the Flink users.
> >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
> >>>> > > attributes, for example,
> >>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and
> presentations
> >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set
> up the
> >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Best,
> >>>> > > Jark
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >> Hi all,
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
> >>>> > >> workspace.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Motivation
> >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication
> through
> >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing,
> should
> >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for
> ad-hoc
> >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
> >>>> > different
> >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to
> provide a
> >>>> > common
> >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd
> propose to
> >>>> > create
> >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink
> PMC.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Benefits
> >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
> overlooked.
> >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions
> that help
> >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun,
> temporal
> >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
> >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still
> be
> >>>> > able to
> >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
> >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should
> be
> >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the
> Apache
> >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
> >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on
> slack.
> >>>> > Long
> >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be
> posted on
> >>>> > the
> >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
> >>>> > discussion.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
> >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
> responsive. We
> >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
> volunteers.
> >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all
> the
> >>>> > peers
> >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not
> expect
> >>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is
> its lack
> >>>> > of
> >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them.
> There are
> >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first
> step, we may
> >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the
> mailing
> >>>> > lists.
> >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
> mailing
> >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> ## Other communities
> >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache
> hosted or
> >>>> > not)
> >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
> HBase [4]
> >>>> > >> etc.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
> official
> >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to
> that, I’d
> >>>> > like
> >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Thank you~
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> Xintong Song
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >>>> > >>
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>]

Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
So I think slack can be worth trying.

David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
forth, slack communication will be more effective.

But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).

[1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
[2] https://druid.apache.org/community/

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I have mixed feelings about this.
>
> I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>
> It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise takes the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to do more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help from those who are already actively providing support on the existing communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>
> On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going on. This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when a difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>
> David
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>
>> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>
>> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public record at all.
>>
>> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>
>> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>
>>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of community rules.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Martijn
>>>
>>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>
>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as
>>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
>>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the result
>>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
>>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
>>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
>>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
>>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>
>>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.
>>>>
>>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
>>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top)
>>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
>>>> better IMO.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Piotrek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>> > Thank you~
>>>> >
>>>> > Xintong Song
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>> >
>>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on the
>>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
>>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
>>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
>>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication channels
>>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
>>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
>>>> > already.
>>>> >
>>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years.
>>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even
>>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more
>>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead of
>>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are proposing
>>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of *moving*
>>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
>>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>> >
>>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR, these
>>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
>>>> > please let me know.
>>>> >
>>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't
>>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
>>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
>>>> > provide
>>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>> >
>>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All of
>>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires an
>>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes the
>>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
>>>> > something
>>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward this
>>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thank you~
>>>> >
>>>> > Xintong Song
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>> > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>> > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>> > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
>>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
>>>> > previously
>>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the project
>>>> > > as a whole.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
>>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
>>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions
>>>> > and
>>>> > > use cases.
>>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection to
>>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
>>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
>>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up the
>>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Best,
>>>> > > Jark
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>> > >> workspace.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
>>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing, should
>>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for ad-hoc
>>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
>>>> > different
>>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
>>>> > common
>>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
>>>> > create
>>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
>>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that help
>>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
>>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
>>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
>>>> > able to
>>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
>>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
>>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the Apache
>>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
>>>> > Long
>>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted on
>>>> > the
>>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
>>>> > discussion.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive. We
>>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are volunteers.
>>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
>>>> > peers
>>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
>>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its lack
>>>> > of
>>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There are
>>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we may
>>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
>>>> > lists.
>>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the mailing
>>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
>>>> > not)
>>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase [4]
>>>> > >> etc.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an official
>>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that, I’d
>>>> > like
>>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> >

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>]

Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack
channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc.
So I think slack can be worth trying.

David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and
forth, slack communication will be more effective.

But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are
enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to
discuss, to answer questions, to communicate.
And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and
stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do).

[1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
[2] https://druid.apache.org/community/

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I have mixed feelings about this.
>
> I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a platform where the responses can be searched and shared.
>
> It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise takes the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to do more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help from those who are already actively providing support on the existing communication channels might just lead to burnout.
>
> On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going on. This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when a difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.
>
> David
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>>
>> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised once a while indicates lasting interests.
>>
>> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public record at all.
>>
>> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>
>> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>>
>>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of community rules.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Martijn
>>>
>>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>>
>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as
>>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
>>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the result
>>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
>>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
>>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
>>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
>>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>>
>>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.
>>>>
>>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
>>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top)
>>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
>>>> better IMO.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Piotrek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>> > Thank you~
>>>> >
>>>> > Xintong Song
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>>> >
>>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on the
>>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
>>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
>>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
>>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication channels
>>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
>>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
>>>> > already.
>>>> >
>>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years.
>>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even
>>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more
>>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead of
>>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are proposing
>>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of *moving*
>>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
>>>> > addition to the ML.
>>>> >
>>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR, these
>>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
>>>> > please let me know.
>>>> >
>>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't
>>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
>>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
>>>> > provide
>>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>>> >
>>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All of
>>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires an
>>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes the
>>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
>>>> > something
>>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward this
>>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thank you~
>>>> >
>>>> > Xintong Song
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>>> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>>> > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>>> > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>>> > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
>>>> > > rejected every time.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
>>>> > previously
>>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the project
>>>> > > as a whole.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
>>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
>>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions
>>>> > and
>>>> > > use cases.
>>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection to
>>>> > > the Flink users.
>>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
>>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
>>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up the
>>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Best,
>>>> > > Jark
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > >> Hi all,
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
>>>> > >> workspace.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
>>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing, should
>>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for ad-hoc
>>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
>>>> > different
>>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
>>>> > common
>>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
>>>> > create
>>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
>>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that help
>>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
>>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
>>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
>>>> > able to
>>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
>>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
>>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the Apache
>>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
>>>> > Long
>>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted on
>>>> > the
>>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
>>>> > discussion.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive. We
>>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are volunteers.
>>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
>>>> > peers
>>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
>>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its lack
>>>> > of
>>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There are
>>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we may
>>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
>>>> > lists.
>>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the mailing
>>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
>>>> > not)
>>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase [4]
>>>> > >> etc.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an official
>>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that, I’d
>>>> > like
>>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Thank you~
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> >

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[David Anderson <da...@apache.org>]

I have mixed feelings about this.

I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a lot
of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a platform
where the responses can be searched and shared.

It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow frequently
go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise takes the time to
respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to do more user
outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good place to
start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help from those who
are already actively providing support on the existing communication
channels might just lead to burnout.

On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases where
considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going on. This
can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when a
difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something
like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.

David

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>
> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
> discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel
> as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised
> once a while indicates lasting interests.
>
> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
> drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who
> prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
> discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
> record at all.
>
> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some kind
> of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of ad-hoc
> conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting points. I
> am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we can just
> stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by
>> external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless
>> you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and
>> that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are
>> other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see
>> it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>
>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>> reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
>> of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
>> community rules.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>
>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great
>>> as
>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the
>>> result
>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>
>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.
>>>
>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at
>>> top)
>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
>>> better IMO.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Piotrek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>>
>>> > Thank you~
>>> >
>>> > Xintong Song
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>> >
>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed
>>> on the
>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago.
>>> On
>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
>>> channels
>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
>>> > already.
>>> >
>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4
>>> years.
>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and
>>> even
>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means
>>> more
>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
>>> Instead of
>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
>>> proposing
>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
>>> *moving*
>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as
>>> an
>>> > addition to the ML.
>>> >
>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR,
>>> these
>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
>>> > please let me know.
>>> >
>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack
>>> isn't
>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
>>> > provide
>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>> >
>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub.
>>> All of
>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
>>> requires an
>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
>>> minimizes the
>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
>>> > something
>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward
>>> this
>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you~
>>> >
>>> > Xintong Song
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>> > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>> > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>> > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
>>> > > rejected every time.
>>> > >
>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
>>> > previously
>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>> > >
>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
>>> project
>>> > > as a whole.
>>> > >
>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>> > >
>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>> > >
>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
>>> opinions
>>> > and
>>> > > use cases.
>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>>> connection to
>>> > > the Flink users.
>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>> > >
>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up
>>> the
>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>> > >
>>> > > Best,
>>> > > Jark
>>> > >
>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> Hi all,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
>>> > >> workspace.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication
>>> through
>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing,
>>> should
>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for
>>> ad-hoc
>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
>>> > different
>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
>>> > common
>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
>>> > create
>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>>> overlooked.
>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that
>>> help
>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
>>> > able to
>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the
>>> Apache
>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
>>> > Long
>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted
>>> on
>>> > the
>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
>>> > discussion.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>>> responsive. We
>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
>>> volunteers.
>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
>>> > peers
>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not
>>> expect
>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its
>>> lack
>>> > of
>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There
>>> are
>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step,
>>> we may
>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
>>> > lists.
>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
>>> mailing
>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
>>> > not)
>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
>>> HBase [4]
>>> > >> etc.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
>>> official
>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that,
>>> I’d
>>> > like
>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Thank you~
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>>
>>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[David Anderson <da...@apache.org>]

I have mixed feelings about this.

I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get a lot
of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a platform
where the responses can be searched and shared.

It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow frequently
go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise takes the time to
respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy to do more user
outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good place to
start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help from those who
are already actively providing support on the existing communication
channels might just lead to burnout.

On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases where
considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going on. This
can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or when a
difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, something
like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow.

David

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.
>
> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
> discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel
> as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised
> once a while indicates lasting interests.
>
> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
> drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who
> prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
> discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
> record at all.
>
> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some kind
> of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of ad-hoc
> conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting points. I
> am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we can just
> stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by
>> external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless
>> you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and
>> that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are
>> other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see
>> it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>>
>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
>> reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
>> of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
>> community rules.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>>
>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Xintong,
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great
>>> as
>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the
>>> result
>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
>>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>>
>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.
>>>
>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at
>>> top)
>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
>>> better IMO.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Piotrek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>>
>>> > Thank you~
>>> >
>>> > Xintong Song
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Chesnay,
>>> >
>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed
>>> on the
>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago.
>>> On
>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
>>> channels
>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
>>> > already.
>>> >
>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4
>>> years.
>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and
>>> even
>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means
>>> more
>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion.
>>> Instead of
>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
>>> proposing
>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
>>> *moving*
>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as
>>> an
>>> > addition to the ML.
>>> >
>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR,
>>> these
>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
>>> > please let me know.
>>> >
>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack
>>> isn't
>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
>>> > provide
>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>>> >
>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub.
>>> All of
>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel
>>> requires an
>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This
>>> minimizes the
>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
>>> > something
>>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward
>>> this
>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you~
>>> >
>>> > Xintong Song
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>>> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>>> > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>>> > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>>> > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
>>> > > rejected every time.
>>> > >
>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
>>> > previously
>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>>> > >
>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
>>> project
>>> > > as a whole.
>>> > >
>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>>> > >
>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>>> > >
>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for
>>> opinions
>>> > and
>>> > > use cases.
>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a
>>> connection to
>>> > > the Flink users.
>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
>>> > > attributes, for example,
>>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>>> > >
>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up
>>> the
>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>>> > >
>>> > > Best,
>>> > > Jark
>>> > >
>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> Hi all,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
>>> > >> workspace.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Motivation
>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication
>>> through
>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing,
>>> should
>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for
>>> ad-hoc
>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
>>> > different
>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
>>> > common
>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
>>> > create
>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Benefits
>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely
>>> overlooked.
>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that
>>> help
>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
>>> > able to
>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the
>>> Apache
>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
>>> > Long
>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted
>>> on
>>> > the
>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
>>> > discussion.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be
>>> responsive. We
>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
>>> volunteers.
>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
>>> > peers
>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not
>>> expect
>>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its
>>> lack
>>> > of
>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There
>>> are
>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step,
>>> we may
>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
>>> > lists.
>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
>>> mailing
>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ## Other communities
>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
>>> > not)
>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3],
>>> HBase [4]
>>> > >> etc.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
>>> official
>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that,
>>> I’d
>>> > like
>>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Thank you~
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Xintong Song
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>>
>>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>]

Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.

While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel
as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised
once a while indicates lasting interests.

Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who
prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
record at all.

One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some kind
of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of ad-hoc
conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting points. I
am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we can just
stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.

Thanks,

Jiangjie (Becket) Qin

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by
> external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless
> you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and
> that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are
> other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see
> it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>
> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
> reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
> of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
> community rules.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martijn
>
> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Xintong,
>>
>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as
>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the
>> result
>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>
>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.
>>
>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at
>> top)
>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
>> better IMO.
>>
>> Best,
>> Piotrek
>>
>>
>>
>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>
>> > Thank you~
>> >
>> > Xintong Song
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Chesnay,
>> >
>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on
>> the
>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
>> channels
>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
>> > already.
>> >
>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4
>> years.
>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and
>> even
>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means
>> more
>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead
>> of
>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
>> proposing
>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
>> *moving*
>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
>> > addition to the ML.
>> >
>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR,
>> these
>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
>> > please let me know.
>> >
>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack
>> isn't
>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
>> > provide
>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>> >
>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All
>> of
>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires
>> an
>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes
>> the
>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
>> > something
>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>> >
>> >
>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward
>> this
>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>> >
>> > Thank you~
>> >
>> > Xintong Song
>> >
>> >
>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>> > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>> > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>> > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
>> > > rejected every time.
>> > >
>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
>> > previously
>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>> > >
>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
>> project
>> > > as a whole.
>> > >
>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>> > >
>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>> > >
>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions
>> > and
>> > > use cases.
>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection
>> to
>> > > the Flink users.
>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
>> > > attributes, for example,
>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>> > >
>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up
>> the
>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > > Jark
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hi all,
>> > >>
>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
>> > >> workspace.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Motivation
>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing,
>> should
>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for
>> ad-hoc
>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
>> > different
>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
>> > common
>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
>> > create
>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Benefits
>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that
>> help
>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
>> > able to
>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the
>> Apache
>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
>> > Long
>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted
>> on
>> > the
>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
>> > discussion.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive.
>> We
>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
>> volunteers.
>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
>> > peers
>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its
>> lack
>> > of
>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There
>> are
>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we
>> may
>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
>> > lists.
>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
>> mailing
>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Other communities
>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
>> > not)
>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase
>> [4]
>> > >> etc.
>> > >>
>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
>> official
>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that,
>> I’d
>> > like
>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thank you~
>> > >>
>> > >> Xintong Song
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>]

Thanks for the proposal, Xintong.

While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous
discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack channel
as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is raised
once a while indicates lasting interests.

Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it has
drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people who
prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of
discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no public
record at all.

One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, some kind
of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of ad-hoc
conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting points. I
am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst case, we can just
stop doing this and come back to where we are right now.

Thanks,

Jiangjie (Becket) Qin

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by
> external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless
> you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and
> that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are
> other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see
> it as a potential option to create a more active community.
>
> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
> reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
> of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
> community rules.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martijn
>
> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/
>
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Xintong,
>>
>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as
>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the
>> result
>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
>> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>>
>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.
>>
>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at
>> top)
>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
>> better IMO.
>>
>> Best,
>> Piotrek
>>
>>
>>
>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>
>> > Thank you~
>> >
>> > Xintong Song
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
>> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Chesnay,
>> >
>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on
>> the
>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
>> channels
>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
>> > already.
>> >
>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4
>> years.
>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and
>> even
>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means
>> more
>> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead
>> of
>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
>> proposing
>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
>> *moving*
>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
>> > addition to the ML.
>> >
>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR,
>> these
>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
>> > please let me know.
>> >
>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack
>> isn't
>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
>> > provide
>> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
>> >
>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All
>> of
>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires
>> an
>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes
>> the
>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
>> > something
>> > > that is also available to contributors.
>> >
>> >
>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward
>> this
>> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
>> >
>> > Thank you~
>> >
>> > Xintong Song
>> >
>> >
>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
>> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
>> > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
>> > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
>> > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
>> > > rejected every time.
>> > >
>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
>> > previously
>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
>> > >
>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
>> project
>> > > as a whole.
>> > >
>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
>> > >
>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
>> > >
>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions
>> > and
>> > > use cases.
>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection
>> to
>> > > the Flink users.
>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
>> > > attributes, for example,
>> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
>> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
>> > >
>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up
>> the
>> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > > Jark
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hi all,
>> > >>
>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
>> > >> workspace.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Motivation
>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing,
>> should
>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for
>> ad-hoc
>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
>> > different
>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
>> > common
>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
>> > create
>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Benefits
>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that
>> help
>> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
>> > able to
>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the
>> Apache
>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
>> > Long
>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted
>> on
>> > the
>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
>> > discussion.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Responsiveness
>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive.
>> We
>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
>> volunteers.
>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
>> > peers
>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
>> > >> others to always be responsive.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its
>> lack
>> > of
>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There
>> are
>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we
>> may
>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
>> > lists.
>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
>> mailing
>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
>> > >>
>> > >> ## Other communities
>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
>> > not)
>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase
>> [4]
>> > >> etc.
>> > >>
>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
>> official
>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that,
>> I’d
>> > like
>> > >> to hear more about what you think.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thank you~
>> > >>
>> > >> Xintong Song
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
>> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>]

Hi everyone,

While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by
external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless
you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and
that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are
other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see
it as a potential option to create a more active community.

A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
community rules.

Best regards,

Martijn

[1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/

On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Xintong,
>
> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as
> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the result
> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>
> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.
>
> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top)
> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
> better IMO.
>
> Best,
> Piotrek
>
>
>
> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
> > Thank you~
> >
> > Xintong Song
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hi Chesnay,
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on
> the
> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
> channels
> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
> > already.
> >
> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years.
> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even
> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more
> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead
> of
> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
> proposing
> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
> *moving*
> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
> > addition to the ML.
> >
> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR,
> these
> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
> > please let me know.
> >
> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't
> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
> > provide
> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >
> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All
> of
> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires
> an
> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes
> the
> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
> > something
> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >
> >
> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward
> this
> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >
> > Thank you~
> >
> > Xintong Song
> >
> >
> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >
> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
> > > rejected every time.
> > >
> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
> > previously
> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> > >
> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
> project
> > > as a whole.
> > >
> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> > >
> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> > >
> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions
> > and
> > > use cases.
> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection
> to
> > > the Flink users.
> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
> > > attributes, for example,
> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> > >
> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up the
> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Jark
> > >
> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
> > >> workspace.
> > >>
> > >> ## Motivation
> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing, should
> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for
> ad-hoc
> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
> > different
> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
> > common
> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
> > create
> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
> > >>
> > >> ## Benefits
> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that help
> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> > >>
> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
> > able to
> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the
> Apache
> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
> > Long
> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted on
> > the
> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
> > discussion.
> > >>
> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive.
> We
> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
> volunteers.
> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
> > peers
> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > >>
> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its lack
> > of
> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There
> are
> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we
> may
> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
> > lists.
> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
> mailing
> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
> > >>
> > >> ## Other communities
> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
> > not)
> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase
> [4]
> > >> etc.
> > >>
> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
> official
> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that, I’d
> > like
> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > >>
> > >> Thank you~
> > >>
> > >> Xintong Song
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Martijn Visser <ma...@ververica.com>]

Hi everyone,

While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not indexed by
external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content unless
you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has progressed and
that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. There are
other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I also see
it as a potential option to create a more active community.

A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known
reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a lot
of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set of
community rules.

Best regards,

Martijn

[1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/

On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Xintong,
>
> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as
> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the result
> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
> thread, because nobody can search for it .
>
> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.
>
> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top)
> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
> better IMO.
>
> Best,
> Piotrek
>
>
>
> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
> > Thank you~
> >
> > Xintong Song
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> > To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >
> >
> > Hi Chesnay,
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on
> the
> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication
> channels
> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
> > already.
> >
> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years.
> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even
> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more
> > discussions and Q&As are happening.
> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead
> of
> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are
> proposing
> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of
> *moving*
> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
> > addition to the ML.
> >
> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR,
> these
> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
> > please let me know.
> >
> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't
> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
> > provide
> > > information to the contrary, please do so.
> >
> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All
> of
> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires
> an
> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes
> the
> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
> > something
> > > that is also available to contributors.
> >
> >
> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward
> this
> > to dev@ and user@ ML.
> >
> > Thank you~
> >
> > Xintong Song
> >
> >
> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> > [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> > [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> > [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
> >
> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
> > > rejected every time.
> > >
> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
> > previously
> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> > >
> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the
> project
> > > as a whole.
> > >
> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> > >
> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> > > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> > >
> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions
> > and
> > > use cases.
> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection
> to
> > > the Flink users.
> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
> > > attributes, for example,
> > >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> > >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> > >
> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up the
> > > Flink slack and maintain it.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Jark
> > >
> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
> > >> workspace.
> > >>
> > >> ## Motivation
> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing, should
> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for
> ad-hoc
> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
> > different
> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
> > common
> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
> > create
> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
> > >>
> > >> ## Benefits
> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that help
> > >> improve the communication efficiency.
> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> > >>
> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
> > able to
> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the
> Apache
> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
> > Long
> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted on
> > the
> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
> > discussion.
> > >>
> > >> ## Responsiveness
> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive.
> We
> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are
> volunteers.
> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
> > peers
> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
> > >> others to always be responsive.
> > >>
> > >> ## Archivability and searchability
> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its lack
> > of
> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There
> are
> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we
> may
> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
> > lists.
> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the
> mailing
> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
> > >>
> > >> ## Other communities
> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
> > not)
> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase
> [4]
> > >> etc.
> > >>
> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an
> official
> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that, I’d
> > like
> > >> to hear more about what you think.
> > >>
> > >> Thank you~
> > >>
> > >> Xintong Song
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> > >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>]

Hi Xintong,

I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as
an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the result
of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
thread, because nobody can search for it .

I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.

For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top)
it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
better IMO.

Best,
Piotrek



pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):

> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>
>
> Hi Chesnay,
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on the
> ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
> the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
> Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
> discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication channels
> are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
> additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
> already.
>
> I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years.
> We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even
> more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more
> discussions and Q&As are happening.
> 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead of
> maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are proposing
> to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of *moving*
> the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
> addition to the ML.
>
> Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR, these
> are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
> please let me know.
>
> > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't
> > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
> > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
> provide
> > information to the contrary, please do so.
>
> 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All of
> > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires an
> > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes the
> > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
> something
> > that is also available to contributors.
>
>
> I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward this
> to dev@ and user@ ML.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
> > rejected every time.
> >
> > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
> previously
> > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> >
> > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the project
> > as a whole.
> >
> > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >
> > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> >
> > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
> > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >
> > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions
> and
> > use cases.
> > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection to
> > the Flink users.
> > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
> > attributes, for example,
> >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
> > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >
> > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up the
> > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >
> > Best,
> > Jark
> >
> > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
> >> workspace.
> >>
> >> ## Motivation
> >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
> >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing, should
> >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for ad-hoc
> >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
> different
> >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
> common
> >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
> create
> >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
> >>
> >> ## Benefits
> >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
> >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that help
> >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
> >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> >>
> >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
> >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
> able to
> >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
> >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
> >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the Apache
> >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
> >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
> Long
> >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted on
> the
> >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
> discussion.
> >>
> >> ## Responsiveness
> >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive. We
> >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are volunteers.
> >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
> peers
> >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
> >> others to always be responsive.
> >>
> >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its lack
> of
> >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There are
> >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we may
> >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
> lists.
> >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the mailing
> >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
> >>
> >> ## Other communities
> >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
> not)
> >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase [4]
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an official
> >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that, I’d
> like
> >> to hear more about what you think.
> >>
> >> Thank you~
> >>
> >> Xintong Song
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >>
> >
> >
>

Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace

[Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>]

Hi Xintong,

I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works great as
an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not searchable
and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as the result
of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing list/design doc.
For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. In the
result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions over, and
over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the previous
thread, because nobody can search for it .

I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the
contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the users.

For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, stackoverflow.
With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the oldest/newest at top)
it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case much
better IMO.

Best,
Piotrek



pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> napisał(a):

> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace
> To: private <pr...@flink.apache.org>
> Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>
>
> Hi Chesnay,
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* discussed on the
> ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 years ago. On
> the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about whether
> Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a recent
> discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative communication channels
> are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having such
> additional channels and they have been worked well for many projects
> already.
>
> I see two reasons for brining this discussion again:
> 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the past 4 years.
> We have more contributors, including committers and PMC members, and even
> more users from various organizations and timezones. That also means more
> discussions and Q&As are happening.
> 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. Instead of
> maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we are proposing
> to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead of *moving*
> the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack Workspace as an
> addition to the ML.
>
> Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. IIUR, these
> are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked anything,
> please let me know.
>
> > 1. According to INFRA-14292 <
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF Slack isn't
> > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather questionable
> > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If anyone can
> provide
> > information to the contrary, please do so.
>
> 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and GitHub. All of
> > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel requires an
> > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This minimizes the
> > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather prefer
> something
> > that is also available to contributors.
>
>
> I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll forward this
> to dev@ and user@ ML.
>
> Thank you~
>
> Xintong Song
>
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d
> [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc
> [3] https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6
> [4] https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts
> [5] https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years and was
> > rejected every time.
> >
> > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate the
> previously
> > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it.
> >
> > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but the project
> > as a whole.
> >
> > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote:
> >
> > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic.
> >
> > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing list.
> > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised
> > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use Slack.
> > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities
> > are using Slack as the community base camp.
> >
> > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for opinions
> and
> > use cases.
> > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a connection to
> > the Flink users.
> > We can create more channels to make the community have more social
> > attributes, for example,
> >  - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and presentations
> > related to Flink in the #shows channel
> >  - Flink releases, events in the #news channel
> >
> > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help set up the
> > Flink slack and maintain it.
> >
> > Best,
> > Jark
> >
> > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song <to...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink slack
> >> workspace.
> >>
> >> ## Motivation
> >> Today many organizations choose to do real time communication through
> >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time computing, should
> >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially for ad-hoc
> >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors from
> different
> >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to provide a
> common
> >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd propose to
> create
> >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the Flink PMC.
> >>
> >> ## Benefits
> >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely overlooked.
> >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions that help
> >> improve the communication efficiency.
> >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, temporal
> >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.).
> >>
> >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists
> >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather than a
> >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should still be
> able to
> >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That means:
> >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions should be
> >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to the Apache
> >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t happen.
> >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions on slack.
> Long
> >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be posted on
> the
> >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real time
> discussion.
> >>
> >> ## Responsiveness
> >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be responsive. We
> >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are volunteers.
> >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when all the
> peers
> >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should not expect
> >> others to always be responsive.
> >>
> >> ## Archivability and searchability
> >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with is its lack
> of
> >> capability to archive conversations and to search among them. There are
> >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first step, we may
> >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the mailing
> lists.
> >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to the mailing
> >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and searchability.
> >>
> >> ## Other communities
> >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache hosted or
> not)
> >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg [3], HBase [4]
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need an official
> >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to that, I’d
> like
> >> to hear more about what you think.
> >>
> >> Thank you~
> >>
> >> Xintong Song
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org
> >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community
> >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack
> >> [4] https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack
> >>
> >
> >
>