Google docs (was: Re: [GitHub] incubator-pirk pull request #93: WIP-Pirk 63-DO NOT MERGE)

[Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>]

On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
> Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two to
> let others comment.

Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...

If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.

When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under the
ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website then
it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.

That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
the terms of that new location explicit.

In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously edit
the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise adding
an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]

[1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
[2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK

Regards,
Tim

Re: Google docs

[Darin Johnson <db...@gmail.com>]

Updated per Tim's comments in the document plus the Apache footer. I didn't
see anything in legal for these types of documents so I just used the
Apache Copyright footer, if that is incorrect let me know.

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:23 AM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/09/16 13:13, Suneel Marthi wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 21/09/16 11:36, Suneel Marthi wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
> >>>>> Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_
> >>>> mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two
> >> to
> >>>>> let others comment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
> >>>> should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.
> >>>>
> >>>> When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
> >>>> wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under
> the
> >>>> ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
> >>>> material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website
> then
> >>>> it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.
> >>>>
> >>>> That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
> >>>> unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
> >>>> the terms of that new location explicit.
> >>>>
> >>>> In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously
> edit
> >>>> the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise
> adding
> >>>> an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
> >>>> [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Tim
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Point noted. Between creating a Wiki page and a Google Doc, to me
> Google
> >>> doc takes a lot less time and its easier for others to comment and
> >> modify.
> >>> The Wiki has problems of its own, know all too well from having to
> >> approve
> >>> the monthly incubator reports and see how much time u spend waiting for
> >> the
> >>> login screen to show up and before u r granted access :-)
> >>>
> >>> The actual discussions are still happening on mailing lists which point
> >> to
> >>> the Google docs, so what's the issue here?  If adding an ALv2 footer
> >> makes
> >>> a google doc ASF legitimate - fine.
> >>>
> >>> I pointed to an example of how Flink is doing process and feature
> >>> improvements which is using - project Wiki, Google Docs and all
> >> discussions
> >>> happening on mailing lists -
> >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.
> >> action?pageId=65870673
> >>>
> >>> There are other projects doing things similarly - projects like Kudu,
> and
> >>> others even have public slack channels. We can go and start picking on
> >>> every one of those and start crying foul.  We can still use the old -
> >>> fashioned IRC channels (or its ultra modern avatars like Slack which I
> >>> would very much prefer).
> >>
> >> I'm no apologist for ASF infrastructure, which tends to be a lowest
> >> common denominator.  There is always lots of discussion on the infra
> >> lists about moving things on.
> >>
> >> My point is that putting a link on this list to material hosted
> >> elsewhere does not make it a contribution.  I am simply doing my mentor
> >> duty to ensure people are aware of that and (a) mark things as
> >> contributions where they are so, and (b) don't take things from
> >> elsewhere without checking the terms first.
> >>
> >> Of course, I'm not suggesting anything bad has occurred here.
> >>
> >> If other PMCs have less focus on this, that's for them to consider, but
> >> I have direct personal experience of an Apache project being part of a
> >> very expensive court case over its contributions so I am hyper-sensitive
> >> to it.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Tim
> >>
> >
> > Apologies for my response. I see your point of view and concur. Would it
> > suffice to add an ASF legal footer to the Google doc? The Google doc
> lives
> > as long as we are hashing out the design, once implemented the Wiki would
> > be the permanent home and the Google doc ceases to exist.
>
> Yes to all.  I'll let Darin add it as he wrote the doc.
>
> I didn't mean this to be a big deal :-( and as this is all material that
> is on the list anyway it's a poor example.
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>
>

Re: Google docs

[Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>]

On 21/09/16 13:13, Suneel Marthi wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 21/09/16 11:36, Suneel Marthi wrote:
>>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
>>>>> Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
>>>>>
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_
>>>> mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>
>>>>> I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two
>> to
>>>>> let others comment.
>>>>
>>>> Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...
>>>>
>>>> If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
>>>> should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.
>>>>
>>>> When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
>>>> wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under the
>>>> ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
>>>> material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website then
>>>> it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.
>>>>
>>>> That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
>>>> unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
>>>> the terms of that new location explicit.
>>>>
>>>> In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously edit
>>>> the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise adding
>>>> an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]
>>>>
>>>> [1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
>>>> [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>
>>> Point noted. Between creating a Wiki page and a Google Doc, to me Google
>>> doc takes a lot less time and its easier for others to comment and
>> modify.
>>> The Wiki has problems of its own, know all too well from having to
>> approve
>>> the monthly incubator reports and see how much time u spend waiting for
>> the
>>> login screen to show up and before u r granted access :-)
>>>
>>> The actual discussions are still happening on mailing lists which point
>> to
>>> the Google docs, so what's the issue here?  If adding an ALv2 footer
>> makes
>>> a google doc ASF legitimate - fine.
>>>
>>> I pointed to an example of how Flink is doing process and feature
>>> improvements which is using - project Wiki, Google Docs and all
>> discussions
>>> happening on mailing lists -
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.
>> action?pageId=65870673
>>>
>>> There are other projects doing things similarly - projects like Kudu, and
>>> others even have public slack channels. We can go and start picking on
>>> every one of those and start crying foul.  We can still use the old -
>>> fashioned IRC channels (or its ultra modern avatars like Slack which I
>>> would very much prefer).
>>
>> I'm no apologist for ASF infrastructure, which tends to be a lowest
>> common denominator.  There is always lots of discussion on the infra
>> lists about moving things on.
>>
>> My point is that putting a link on this list to material hosted
>> elsewhere does not make it a contribution.  I am simply doing my mentor
>> duty to ensure people are aware of that and (a) mark things as
>> contributions where they are so, and (b) don't take things from
>> elsewhere without checking the terms first.
>>
>> Of course, I'm not suggesting anything bad has occurred here.
>>
>> If other PMCs have less focus on this, that's for them to consider, but
>> I have direct personal experience of an Apache project being part of a
>> very expensive court case over its contributions so I am hyper-sensitive
>> to it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tim
>>
> 
> Apologies for my response. I see your point of view and concur. Would it
> suffice to add an ASF legal footer to the Google doc? The Google doc lives
> as long as we are hashing out the design, once implemented the Wiki would
> be the permanent home and the Google doc ceases to exist.

Yes to all.  I'll let Darin add it as he wrote the doc.

I didn't mean this to be a big deal :-( and as this is all material that
is on the list anyway it's a poor example.

Regards,
Tim

Re: Google docs

[Ellison Anne Williams <ea...@apache.org>]

Clearly, I will defer to the mentors here - but, to weigh in -

It seems that as long as the Google doc is made publicly available via a
link on the mailing list, has the appropriate legal markings, is moved to
the wiki upon completion, and all discussion still occurs on the mailing
list, we can use the technology as an interim medium. Honestly, with all of
those caveats, it may be easier just to use the wiki - other than not
having to wait a few seconds for updates, I'm not sure what GoogleDocs
really buys us here.

As a side note, perhaps it's worth conversation at the ASF level as to how
ASF can incorporate 'new' technologies such as Slack, GoogleDocs, etc.
Maybe these are already occurring and I am unaware...

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Suneel Marthi <su...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On 21/09/16 11:36, Suneel Marthi wrote:
> > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
> > >>> Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
> > >>>
> > >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_
> > >> mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
> > >>>
> > >>> I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two
> > to
> > >>> let others comment.
> > >>
> > >> Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...
> > >>
> > >> If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
> > >> should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.
> > >>
> > >> When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
> > >> wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under
> the
> > >> ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
> > >> material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website
> then
> > >> it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.
> > >>
> > >> That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
> > >> unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
> > >> the terms of that new location explicit.
> > >>
> > >> In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously
> edit
> > >> the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise
> adding
> > >> an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]
> > >>
> > >> [1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
> > >> [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Tim
> > >>
> > >
> > > Point noted. Between creating a Wiki page and a Google Doc, to me
> Google
> > > doc takes a lot less time and its easier for others to comment and
> > modify.
> > > The Wiki has problems of its own, know all too well from having to
> > approve
> > > the monthly incubator reports and see how much time u spend waiting for
> > the
> > > login screen to show up and before u r granted access :-)
> > >
> > > The actual discussions are still happening on mailing lists which point
> > to
> > > the Google docs, so what's the issue here?  If adding an ALv2 footer
> > makes
> > > a google doc ASF legitimate - fine.
> > >
> > > I pointed to an example of how Flink is doing process and feature
> > > improvements which is using - project Wiki, Google Docs and all
> > discussions
> > > happening on mailing lists -
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.
> > action?pageId=65870673
> > >
> > > There are other projects doing things similarly - projects like Kudu,
> and
> > > others even have public slack channels. We can go and start picking on
> > > every one of those and start crying foul.  We can still use the old -
> > > fashioned IRC channels (or its ultra modern avatars like Slack which I
> > > would very much prefer).
> >
> > I'm no apologist for ASF infrastructure, which tends to be a lowest
> > common denominator.  There is always lots of discussion on the infra
> > lists about moving things on.
> >
> > My point is that putting a link on this list to material hosted
> > elsewhere does not make it a contribution.  I am simply doing my mentor
> > duty to ensure people are aware of that and (a) mark things as
> > contributions where they are so, and (b) don't take things from
> > elsewhere without checking the terms first.
> >
> > Of course, I'm not suggesting anything bad has occurred here.
> >
> > If other PMCs have less focus on this, that's for them to consider, but
> > I have direct personal experience of an Apache project being part of a
> > very expensive court case over its contributions so I am hyper-sensitive
> > to it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tim
> >
>
> Apologies for my response. I see your point of view and concur. Would it
> suffice to add an ASF legal footer to the Google doc? The Google doc lives
> as long as we are hashing out the design, once implemented the Wiki would
> be the permanent home and the Google doc ceases to exist.
>

Re: Google docs

[Suneel Marthi <su...@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/09/16 11:36, Suneel Marthi wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
> >>> Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
> >>>
> >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_
> >> mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
> >>>
> >>> I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two
> to
> >>> let others comment.
> >>
> >> Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...
> >>
> >> If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
> >> should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.
> >>
> >> When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
> >> wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under the
> >> ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
> >> material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website then
> >> it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.
> >>
> >> That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
> >> unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
> >> the terms of that new location explicit.
> >>
> >> In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously edit
> >> the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise adding
> >> an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]
> >>
> >> [1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
> >> [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Tim
> >>
> >
> > Point noted. Between creating a Wiki page and a Google Doc, to me Google
> > doc takes a lot less time and its easier for others to comment and
> modify.
> > The Wiki has problems of its own, know all too well from having to
> approve
> > the monthly incubator reports and see how much time u spend waiting for
> the
> > login screen to show up and before u r granted access :-)
> >
> > The actual discussions are still happening on mailing lists which point
> to
> > the Google docs, so what's the issue here?  If adding an ALv2 footer
> makes
> > a google doc ASF legitimate - fine.
> >
> > I pointed to an example of how Flink is doing process and feature
> > improvements which is using - project Wiki, Google Docs and all
> discussions
> > happening on mailing lists -
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.
> action?pageId=65870673
> >
> > There are other projects doing things similarly - projects like Kudu, and
> > others even have public slack channels. We can go and start picking on
> > every one of those and start crying foul.  We can still use the old -
> > fashioned IRC channels (or its ultra modern avatars like Slack which I
> > would very much prefer).
>
> I'm no apologist for ASF infrastructure, which tends to be a lowest
> common denominator.  There is always lots of discussion on the infra
> lists about moving things on.
>
> My point is that putting a link on this list to material hosted
> elsewhere does not make it a contribution.  I am simply doing my mentor
> duty to ensure people are aware of that and (a) mark things as
> contributions where they are so, and (b) don't take things from
> elsewhere without checking the terms first.
>
> Of course, I'm not suggesting anything bad has occurred here.
>
> If other PMCs have less focus on this, that's for them to consider, but
> I have direct personal experience of an Apache project being part of a
> very expensive court case over its contributions so I am hyper-sensitive
> to it.
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>

Apologies for my response. I see your point of view and concur. Would it
suffice to add an ASF legal footer to the Google doc? The Google doc lives
as long as we are hashing out the design, once implemented the Wiki would
be the permanent home and the Google doc ceases to exist.

Re: Google docs

[Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com>]

On 21/09/16 11:36, Suneel Marthi wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
>>> Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_
>> mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
>>>
>>> I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two to
>>> let others comment.
>>
>> Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...
>>
>> If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
>> should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.
>>
>> When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
>> wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under the
>> ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
>> material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website then
>> it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.
>>
>> That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
>> unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
>> the terms of that new location explicit.
>>
>> In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously edit
>> the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise adding
>> an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]
>>
>> [1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
>> [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tim
>>
> 
> Point noted. Between creating a Wiki page and a Google Doc, to me Google
> doc takes a lot less time and its easier for others to comment and modify.
> The Wiki has problems of its own, know all too well from having to approve
> the monthly incubator reports and see how much time u spend waiting for the
> login screen to show up and before u r granted access :-)
> 
> The actual discussions are still happening on mailing lists which point to
> the Google docs, so what's the issue here?  If adding an ALv2 footer makes
> a google doc ASF legitimate - fine.
> 
> I pointed to an example of how Flink is doing process and feature
> improvements which is using - project Wiki, Google Docs and all discussions
> happening on mailing lists -
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=65870673
> 
> There are other projects doing things similarly - projects like Kudu, and
> others even have public slack channels. We can go and start picking on
> every one of those and start crying foul.  We can still use the old -
> fashioned IRC channels (or its ultra modern avatars like Slack which I
> would very much prefer).

I'm no apologist for ASF infrastructure, which tends to be a lowest
common denominator.  There is always lots of discussion on the infra
lists about moving things on.

My point is that putting a link on this list to material hosted
elsewhere does not make it a contribution.  I am simply doing my mentor
duty to ensure people are aware of that and (a) mark things as
contributions where they are so, and (b) don't take things from
elsewhere without checking the terms first.

Of course, I'm not suggesting anything bad has occurred here.

If other PMCs have less focus on this, that's for them to consider, but
I have direct personal experience of an Apache project being part of a
very expensive court case over its contributions so I am hyper-sensitive
to it.

Regards,
Tim

Re: Google docs (was: Re: [GitHub] incubator-pirk pull request #93: WIP-Pirk 63-DO NOT MERGE)

[Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Tim Ellison <t....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/09/16 02:40, Darin Johnson wrote:
> > Suneel, a google doc as promised, only a day late (sorry - sick kid).
> >
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K8E0TridC1hBfqDwWCqdZ8Dj_5_
> mMrRQyynQ-Q6MFbI/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I was planning on working on this, but I'm going to take a day or two to
> > let others comment.
>
> Just swapping to my mentoring hat for a moment...
>
> If you are going to use non-ASF resources for project materials, you
> should make it clear under what terms those materials are offered.
>
> When we all discuss code and ideas on the ASF's mailing lists, JIRAs,
> wiki pages, etc, it is understood that these are contributions under the
> ALv2 for inclusion in the project; but if I point you to Pirk related
> material on my Google account, personal blog, or corporate website then
> it can become ambiguous as to how that material may be used.
>
> That's why I'm a proponent for keeping things on ASF infrastructure
> unless there is a big win for doing it elsewhere that justifies making
> the terms of that new location explicit.
>
> In this particular case, if you need the ability to simultaneously edit
> the document (or some other Google docs feature) then I'd advise adding
> an ALv2 footer [1]; otherwise why not just use our wiki? [2]
>
> [1] e.g. Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0.
> [2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/PIRK
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>

Point noted. Between creating a Wiki page and a Google Doc, to me Google
doc takes a lot less time and its easier for others to comment and modify.
The Wiki has problems of its own, know all too well from having to approve
the monthly incubator reports and see how much time u spend waiting for the
login screen to show up and before u r granted access :-)

The actual discussions are still happening on mailing lists which point to
the Google docs, so what's the issue here?  If adding an ALv2 footer makes
a google doc ASF legitimate - fine.

I pointed to an example of how Flink is doing process and feature
improvements which is using - project Wiki, Google Docs and all discussions
happening on mailing lists -
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=65870673

There are other projects doing things similarly - projects like Kudu, and
others even have public slack channels. We can go and start picking on
every one of those and start crying foul.  We can still use the old -
fashioned IRC channels (or its ultra modern avatars like Slack which I
would very much prefer).