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Posted to docs@httpd.apache.org by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca> on 2001/12/31 18:02:13 UTC
FW: help getting help - Re-> the best way.
For what it's worth, here's another novice user perspective. It seems to
largely agree with what we discussed last time around.
What we need is some way to put ideas like this into concrete changes in the
docs.
Joshua.
-----Original Message-----
From: justken [mailto:justken@rogers.com]
Sent: December 31, 2001 3:32 AM
To: users@httpd.apache.org
Subject: help getting help - Re-> the best way.
my 2 cents. actaully - it's about 5 bucks worth here, but hey! if you don't
have time to read, skip the explanations...
i'm a novice user of apache and have managed to figure it out, at least how
to get it to do most of what i need it for, primarily from the docs it
ships with. although hours spent studying the very well commented .conf
file have been most helpful - and of course good old trial and error in the
end.
often i don't even know, what i don't know. althogh this is my first post
to any list about apache, i've been frustrated by the level of knowledge
assumed by the documentation. i feel that i've learned a whole new
language. the last time i set up a server system that was as challenging
was on my apple iie for a multi line chat system, programmed entirely in
call 151 assembly for my blazing fast 1200 baud hayes modem.
what i would like to have before i started:
1) it would be helpful to have an archive of this apache list.
before i started setting up apache, i was using (don't laugh) PWS on
WinME, there was no reason for me to subscribe to this list. it wasn't
until recently when i started having problems with apache, and after
repeatedly reaching a dead end, that i subscribed. now i am somewhat web
aware, and didn't just pop on the list and post my questions. however the
temptation is GREAT! i want instant solutions to impossible problems, and
don't even speak the apache language (in fact, i don't even speak unix,
which may be appalling to many of you.) and have no idea the history of
the list. I'm sure that within the past year, many many newbies have met
the same problems i have, so, like myself, subscribed to the list, seen not
too much about installing stuff, and suddenly gone question crazy. asking
questions just answered days or weeks ago.
2) a glossary of terms that also covers some of the more obscure "unix"
terms.
usually reserved for servers, and serving related stuff. like "virtual
hosting", "NT service", "httpd" - has anyone looked at the man page for
that term??? it's entirely in greek!!
3) break the faq up into OS specific stuff.
often i have used the browser search to look for stuff, only to find it's
qualified as an OS specific problem. yeah yeah, i know how much work that
is, but it's possible, and really - we wouldn't want win2k diehards and
unix diehards in the same room, do we really want them bopping each other
on the head in these forums?
some things that would be great now that i'm at first base:
1) i'd love to see "optimization" information, or "the best way to..."
stuff.
i have some stuff that works - but i really have no idea why. I have some
stuff that worked, then didn't work, now works again. and i still haven't
figured out what i did to change any of it. i have some stuff that doesn't
work at all, but i've got a work around or "second best solution" where i'm
sure there must be a better way but just don't have the patience to
continue trying to figure it out, when there are more important things to
consider like the web content that is supposed to be served..
2) i'd love to see a "deprecated" list
- or more clearly labeled stuff in the conf file, i spent HOURS and HOURS
trying to get coldfusion working after moving my server to a new hard
drive, only to find out that the mod's list had changed formats and the
loadmodule for coldfusion came before a command to remove all modules in
favour of a new way of adding modules - i still don't understand what that
is all about, but it's working now and if it ain't broke... don't fix. I
found the answer scouring the dregs of usenet posts and stumbled upon a
similar problem, and made the discovery that hey - there is this new
command, and the old stuff is all deprecated.
3) examples of working servers!
i've seen plenty of requests before, in other groups,
_post_some_examples!!!_ yeah, those... hey, i could post "bad examples that
work", i have managed to get multiple virtual hosts happening, but i still
can't figure out how to give them there own unique cgi bin, i can't get pdf
files to be served from a folder in the cgi-bin path, and i can't get my
default ip or www to serve without duplicating it in the virtual host
directory with this installation (it worked before). i lost my root log
files, till i forced them into a subfolder in my cgi-bin. i'm serving a lot
of perl using "activestate perl" and have heard a lot of talk about mod
perl, and am terrified to open that can of worms, lest a fish i'm not
prepared for, completely overwhelms me, and i end up serving from my apple
iie again.
final observations (wow, you got this far - cool, thanks) I found the move
from single ip hosting, where i pointed my name to my server was very
simple, but making the switch to Virtual hosting, was totally confusing. i
still don't think i've got things right, but they work, and i'm ok with
that. i use apache as a development server, not a production server, so
it's not critical that performance be optimized, BUT - the perfectionist in
my would like to see it go that way.
what i need as a novice user, and one not willing to spend $75 (canadian)
taking my chances with a book on configuring Apache, is a set of guidelines
in plain english, or linked to a clear glossary of terms, context and
keyword search of faq and doc's, and get the clear information onto the
index page of the apache.org site, we shouldn't have to go hunting for it.
(or from the online doc's included in the install).
Something that is more OS specific than the general docs.
and a decent archive of the questions that we newbies ask - faq's tend to
be too technical, and often i don't know where to look - until there is a
"my server failed to start, i've tried everything and i'm tired a
frustrated, and i'm dieing here... what do i do?" question in the faq, with
the correct answer...
hope this helps you guys help us get the help we need.
thanks.
ken easson
justken.net
justken@rogers.com
justken web programming and technical support.
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Re: FW: help getting help - Re-> the best way.
Posted by Chris Pepper <pe...@mail.reppep.com>.
A glossary seems like a good idea. Worth linking to
Covalent's <http://apache.covalent.net/articles/glossary.php>?
At 12:02 PM -0500 2001/12/31, Joshua Slive wrote:
>For what it's worth, here's another novice user perspective. It seems to
>largely agree with what we discussed last time around.
>
>What we need is some way to put ideas like this into concrete changes in the
>docs.
>2) a glossary of terms that also covers some of the more obscure "unix"
>terms.
>usually reserved for servers, and serving related stuff. like "virtual
>hosting", "NT service", "httpd" - has anyone looked at the man page for
>that term??? it's entirely in greek!!
>some things that would be great now that i'm at first base:
>
>1) i'd love to see "optimization" information, or "the best way to..."
>stuff.
> i have some stuff that works - but i really have no idea why. I have some
>stuff that worked, then didn't work, now works again. and i still haven't
>figured out what i did to change any of it. i have some stuff that doesn't
>work at all, but i've got a work around or "second best solution" where i'm
>sure there must be a better way but just don't have the patience to
>continue trying to figure it out, when there are more important things to
>consider like the web content that is supposed to be served..
Not sure about this one. I did a quick Google search for
Apache performance tuning and found several articles -- about half
were apparently versions of Dean Gaudet's article
<http://httpd.apache.org/docs/misc/perf-tuning.html>, linked from the
docs homepage. I'm not sure how seriously to take this point in
general, though -- if the user doesn't actually have time to do
performance tuning, or search on Google for "Apache performance",
he's not really an audience for such a document anyway.
Dean's article is very understated -- do y'all think it would
be worth changing so it's a little less self-deprecating? It states
Apache in Windows has poor performance -- is this still true?
>3) examples of working servers!
>i've seen plenty of requests before, in other groups,
>_post_some_examples!!!_ yeah, those... hey, i could post "bad examples that
>work", i have managed to get multiple virtual hosts happening, but i still
>can't figure out how to give them there own unique cgi bin, i can't get pdf
>files to be served from a folder in the cgi-bin path, and i can't get my
>default ip or www to serve without duplicating it in the virtual host
>directory with this installation (it worked before). i lost my root log
>files, till i forced them into a subfolder in my cgi-bin. i'm serving a lot
>of perl using "activestate perl" and have heard a lot of talk about mod
>perl, and am terrified to open that can of worms, lest a fish i'm not
>prepared for, completely overwhelms me, and i end up serving from my apple
>iie again.
Chris Pepper
--
Chris Pepper: <http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/>
Rockefeller University: <http://www.rockefeller.edu/>
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Re: FW: help getting help - Re-> the best way.
Posted by Graham <gr...@tecknet.net>.
Hello Joshua,
Dear all,
this too should begin with for what it's worth. I must say that i
concurr wholeheartedly with Ken's tome. If i have any single
criticism it is this, both this list and the docs largely ASSUME
we understand what we are doing, it is ASSUMED that i understand
Unix. Well i don't, i would very much like to, but life is short,
my brain has a finite capacity and i have a family who like to
eat. It would not occur to me to use anything other than Apache
on the network I administer, but it is a small network and we use
Apache on our Intranet, I must use NT 4 server, that is what my
employer has ergo i must use the windows installation of Apache,
this will change next year (tomorrow!) as i am now comfortable
enough to go live with my Linux box and be sure that i have a
reasonable chance of fixing it. I, as i am sure there are more in
a similar situation, don't have a support team, i AM the support
team. I cannot go down any corridor and ask somebody, i find
myself very much on my own and my knowlage is gleaned from doc's,
manuals, newsgroups and the Internet in general. It is only
because computing is first and foremost a hobby and a passion
that i have got this far, that it is also my means of sustaining
my family is largely incidental.
Yes, i have ranted, but the new year is upon us. I would very
much like to help. I really believe that if only fewer
assumptions were made, i could really understand more, faster.
You may ask what sort of help a person who doesn't understand
Unix could offer, well i am fluent in both Spanish and German for
a start. If i had some sort of clue as to what i was looking at
in the first instance, i would have a realistic chance of
translating into another language so that others would be able to
understand also.
Happy New Year to Everybody.
regards Graham Burns.
Monday, December 31, 2001, 5:02:13 PM, you wrote:
JS> For what it's worth, here's another novice user perspective. It seems to
JS> largely agree with what we discussed last time around.
JS> What we need is some way to put ideas like this into concrete changes in the
JS> docs.
JS> Joshua.
JS> -----Original Message-----
JS> From: justken [mailto:justken@rogers.com]
JS> Sent: December 31, 2001 3:32 AM
JS> To: users@httpd.apache.org
JS> Subject: help getting help - Re-> the best way.
JS> my 2 cents. actaully - it's about 5 bucks worth here, but hey! if you don't
JS> have time to read, skip the explanations...
JS> i'm a novice user of apache and have managed to figure it out, at least how
JS> to get it to do most of what i need it for, primarily from the docs it
JS> ships with. although hours spent studying the very well commented .conf
JS> file have been most helpful - and of course good old trial and error in the
JS> end.
JS> often i don't even know, what i don't know. althogh this is my first post
JS> to any list about apache, i've been frustrated by the level of knowledge
JS> assumed by the documentation. i feel that i've learned a whole new
JS> language. the last time i set up a server system that was as challenging
JS> was on my apple iie for a multi line chat system, programmed entirely in
JS> call 151 assembly for my blazing fast 1200 baud hayes modem.
JS> what i would like to have before i started:
JS> 1) it would be helpful to have an archive of this apache list.
JS> before i started setting up apache, i was using (don't laugh) PWS on
JS> WinME, there was no reason for me to subscribe to this list. it wasn't
JS> until recently when i started having problems with apache, and after
JS> repeatedly reaching a dead end, that i subscribed. now i am somewhat web
JS> aware, and didn't just pop on the list and post my questions. however the
JS> temptation is GREAT! i want instant solutions to impossible problems, and
JS> don't even speak the apache language (in fact, i don't even speak unix,
JS> which may be appalling to many of you.) and have no idea the history of
JS> the list. I'm sure that within the past year, many many newbies have met
JS> the same problems i have, so, like myself, subscribed to the list, seen not
JS> too much about installing stuff, and suddenly gone question crazy. asking
JS> questions just answered days or weeks ago.
JS> 2) a glossary of terms that also covers some of the more obscure "unix"
JS> terms.
JS> usually reserved for servers, and serving related stuff. like "virtual
JS> hosting", "NT service", "httpd" - has anyone looked at the man page for
JS> that term??? it's entirely in greek!!
JS> 3) break the faq up into OS specific stuff.
JS> often i have used the browser search to look for stuff, only to find it's
JS> qualified as an OS specific problem. yeah yeah, i know how much work that
JS> is, but it's possible, and really - we wouldn't want win2k diehards and
JS> unix diehards in the same room, do we really want them bopping each other
JS> on the head in these forums?
JS> some things that would be great now that i'm at first base:
JS> 1) i'd love to see "optimization" information, or "the best way to..."
JS> stuff.
JS> i have some stuff that works - but i really have no idea why. I have some
JS> stuff that worked, then didn't work, now works again. and i still haven't
JS> figured out what i did to change any of it. i have some stuff that doesn't
JS> work at all, but i've got a work around or "second best solution" where i'm
JS> sure there must be a better way but just don't have the patience to
JS> continue trying to figure it out, when there are more important things to
JS> consider like the web content that is supposed to be served..
JS> 2) i'd love to see a "deprecated" list
JS> - or more clearly labeled stuff in the conf file, i spent HOURS and HOURS
JS> trying to get coldfusion working after moving my server to a new hard
JS> drive, only to find out that the mod's list had changed formats and the
JS> loadmodule for coldfusion came before a command to remove all modules in
JS> favour of a new way of adding modules - i still don't understand what that
JS> is all about, but it's working now and if it ain't broke... don't fix. I
JS> found the answer scouring the dregs of usenet posts and stumbled upon a
JS> similar problem, and made the discovery that hey - there is this new
JS> command, and the old stuff is all deprecated.
JS> 3) examples of working servers!
JS> i've seen plenty of requests before, in other groups,
JS> _post_some_examples!!!_ yeah, those... hey, i could post "bad examples that
JS> work", i have managed to get multiple virtual hosts happening, but i still
JS> can't figure out how to give them there own unique cgi bin, i can't get pdf
JS> files to be served from a folder in the cgi-bin path, and i can't get my
JS> default ip or www to serve without duplicating it in the virtual host
JS> directory with this installation (it worked before). i lost my root log
JS> files, till i forced them into a subfolder in my cgi-bin. i'm serving a lot
JS> of perl using "activestate perl" and have heard a lot of talk about mod
JS> perl, and am terrified to open that can of worms, lest a fish i'm not
JS> prepared for, completely overwhelms me, and i end up serving from my apple
JS> iie again.
JS> final observations (wow, you got this far - cool, thanks) I found the move
JS> from single ip hosting, where i pointed my name to my server was very
JS> simple, but making the switch to Virtual hosting, was totally confusing. i
JS> still don't think i've got things right, but they work, and i'm ok with
JS> that. i use apache as a development server, not a production server, so
JS> it's not critical that performance be optimized, BUT - the perfectionist in
JS> my would like to see it go that way.
JS> what i need as a novice user, and one not willing to spend $75 (canadian)
JS> taking my chances with a book on configuring Apache, is a set of guidelines
JS> in plain english, or linked to a clear glossary of terms, context and
JS> keyword search of faq and doc's, and get the clear information onto the
JS> index page of the apache.org site, we shouldn't have to go hunting for it.
JS> (or from the online doc's included in the install).
JS> Something that is more OS specific than the general docs.
JS> and a decent archive of the questions that we newbies ask - faq's tend to
JS> be too technical, and often i don't know where to look - until there is a
JS> "my server failed to start, i've tried everything and i'm tired a
JS> frustrated, and i'm dieing here... what do i do?" question in the faq, with
JS> the correct answer...
JS> hope this helps you guys help us get the help we need.
JS> thanks.
JS> ken easson
JS> justken.net
JS> justken@rogers.com
JS> justken web programming and technical support.
JS> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
JS> The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server Project.
JS> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
JS> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
JS> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@httpd.apache.org
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JS> This communication contains information which is confidential and may also
JS> be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).
JS> If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any
JS> distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in
JS> it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in
JS> error please notify us by e-mail and then delete the e-mail and any copies of it.
--
Best regards,
Graham mailto:graham@tecknet.net
This communication contains information which is confidential and may also
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