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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> on 2018/01/25 01:49:03 UTC
Apache Policy Quiz
Hi,
A while back I posted a little logo game. [1] Well after a few comments on the incubator list around projects possibly graduating without fully understanding ASF policy, and some issues with recent release got me thinking is there another way we can present this information. So I made a little multiple choice quiz on ASF policy. [2] Give it a try [3] and tell me what you think. (It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game but aimed at a different audience.)
Currently it only has a dozen or so questions with some variation, so you may get the same question asked but it’s likely to have different answers in a different order. Anyway if people think this is useful perhaps we can expand it with more questions and broaden the scope to include other areas like the Apache Way, how the foundation works and the like.
I may of made mistakes and it likely some words and sentences probably need correcting. Proof readers and PRs welcome.
BTW it doesn’t save your scores anywhere so if you get a question wrong only you will know but hopefully you might learn something. Have a record of number of people taking the quiz and results by incubating project might be interesting but probably a little invasive.
Thanks,
Justin
1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos
2. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz
3. https://rawgit.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/master/compiled/index.html
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Mike Jumper <mi...@guac-dev.org>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:49 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
wrote:
> ... It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game ...
>
>
I'm not sure anything can as hard as the Apache Lucene question in the logo
game:
https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos/blob/84a740914a7ea55c27875dbd83900a1c3c1d97a2/resources/logos-blur/lucene.jpg
;)
- Mike
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:41 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
> > answer, and it still dings me?
>
> Grep I don't know what two options it gave you from the 3 possible
> answers, 2 of them are right 1 isn’t. No is not the only correct answer.
I already explained: "Yes, Cat-x can be included" and "No, it cannot". The
answer is clear. The quiz said I was wrong. Not a chance, when it comes to
Cat-X. That is black and white. And if I didn't happen to check some
*absent* 3rd checkbox that wasn't displayed, then the quiz better not ding
me for answering according to what I was given.
-g
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
> answer, and it still dings me?
Grep I don't know what two options it gave you from the 3 possible answers, 2 of them are right 1 isn’t. No is not the only correct answer.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> I'm gonna add to this and say there can't be two correct answers in such
> a quiz.
Have you tried many of the question to have multiple correct choices? Perhaps this question / answer set just needs to be worded a little better.
> Either the answer encompasses the full scope of the question, or
> it's not the right answer if the aim is to teach people about our
> policies and ways. Having one option in the cat-x question say "no, with
> exceptions" and one say "yes, for release tools"...the former is still
> the only correct answer and encompasses both pseudo-answers. The latter
> omits several other allowed scenarios.
What are the other allowed scenarios? The only other one I can think of is if VP legal allows it (which I‘ve seen once).
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 01/25/2018 06:54 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> "manually placed into www.apache.org/dist" ... I left that box
>> unchecked,
>>> and well... dang. I still got it wrong, it seems.
>>
>> There no question with that answer that I can see. There’s is one that say
>> "Place the artifacts in www.apache.org/dist.” which you do need to check.
>> I could replace “Place” with “svn mv” if you think that is more accurate.
>>
>
> That's the right text. I just typed from memory.
>
> Point holds.
>
> No, I'm not gonna issue PRs. The methodology of presenting 2 of 3 answers,
> then saying I got it wrong because I couldn't click that not-shown 3rd...
> Nah.
>
I'm gonna add to this and say there can't be two correct answers in such
a quiz. Either the answer encompasses the full scope of the question, or
it's not the right answer if the aim is to teach people about our
policies and ways. Having one option in the cat-x question say "no, with
exceptions" and one say "yes, for release tools"...the former is still
the only correct answer and encompasses both pseudo-answers. The latter
omits several other allowed scenarios.
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> Thanks for having a go, Justin! We need more ways to explain license and
> distribution challenges.
Thanks for giving it a try.,
> I also got just 1 of 5, even on multiple tries on the same questions. Also
> the fact that the correct answer(s) is not shown graphically is confusing.
That was by intention so people read the hints and follow the policy links but perhaps that’s too hard.
> i thinks such a quiz should not deliberately cover all the subtleties which
> as we see here we are not in 100% agreement on; that just make people
> conclude that "It's too complicated”.
Good point.
> Which of these need to include/show LICENCE and NOTICE files for an ASF
> release?
Simple but I’m concerned that this may be too simple?
> Which of the below should be included in NOTICE for contributions to Apache
> Foo under Apache License 2.0?
Makes sense.
> Here I left out "Other Apache Projects which code was reused" and "Code
> contributed in software grant" because those can be more complicated
But however they are quite common situations so I think need to be covered.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> I think the quiz is a great idea.
Thanks for trying it out.
> I would really like to see the correct
> answers when the provided answer is wrong. Having the hints is very useful,
> and should be kept, but I would still like to also see the correct answers
> instead of just having to pour through documentation…
It now show the wrong answers and the hints (i.e. why they were wrong) on the answer page.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Adina Crainiceanu <ad...@usna.edu>.
Hi,
I think the quiz is a great idea. I would really like to see the correct
answers when the provided answer is wrong. Having the hints is very useful,
and should be kept, but I would still like to also see the correct answers
instead of just having to pour through documentation...
Thanks Justin for your work.
Adina
On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 7:34 AM, Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> >> Maybe let the user choose the level at the start?
> >
> > Also a good idea.
>
> And done - should make it a little easier for people but I may of cranked
> it a little too high. Again feedback welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
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>
--
Dr. Adina Crainiceanu
Associate Professor
Computer Science Department
United States Naval Academy
410-293-6822
adina@usna.edu
http://www.usna.edu/Users/cs/adina/
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
>> Maybe let the user choose the level at the start?
>
> Also a good idea.
And done - should make it a little easier for people but I may of cranked it a little too high. Again feedback welcome.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> Maybe let the user choose the level at the start?
Also a good idea.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Christofer Dutz <ch...@c-ware.de>.
Maybe let the user choose the level at the start?
I agree that new people could get confused, but being able to increase the level could help spread the details. As in the incubator these details are what usually result in -1 votes.
Chris
Am 25.01.18, 11:16 schrieb "Stian Soiland-Reyes" <st...@apache.org>:
Thanks for having a go, Justin! We need more ways to explain license and
distribution challenges.
I also got just 1 of 5, even on multiple tries on the same questions. Also
the fact that the correct answer(s) is not shown graphically is confusing.
i thinks such a quiz should not deliberately cover all the subtleties which
as we see here we are not in 100% agreement on; that just make people
conclude that "It's too complicated".
The quiz should rather cover the obvious bits so that this could be used by
newcomers to the Incubator, rather than try to catch out ASF members.
I would avoid tricky multiple choice, except in obvious multi-things like
"which licenses allowed" (which I thought was a good, more obvious
question).
Other kind of simpler questions could be:
Which of these need to include/show LICENCE and NOTICE files for an ASF
release?
Source code release on www.apache.org/dist
Binary release zip on www.apache.org/dist
Binary JARs in Maven Central
Windows installer at Launchpad.net
OSX disk image in Apple store
Source code release in Debian
Here all of the above is right answer. I left out "Source code repository
in git" because at least in Incubator we allow slight diversions here (and
also repos would include older commits possibly pre-ASF).
Which of the below should be included in NOTICE for contributions to Apache
Foo under Apache License 2.0?
1 Apache Software Foundation
2 Apache Foo
3 Apache Foo PMC members
4 Apache Foo Committers who contributed to release
5 Contributors who submitted patches to Apache Foo
6 NOTICE of Apache-licensed code that was included from outside ASF
Only 1,2,6 are correct.
Here I left out "Other Apache Projects which code was reused" and "Code
contributed in software grant" because those can be more complicated.
On 25 Jan 2018 8:02 am, "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de> wrote:
> In general I think it's a great Idea.
> I would really like to bring this to my new Apache colleagues in the PLC4X
> project ... this way they could get up to speed with the formal stuff.
>
> But I think the tool does need a little optimization ;-)
>
> I think from 5 questions I got about 1 right ;-)
>
> But I guess it was mainly cause I interpreted the answers as if they are
> aggregated to form a correct answer.
> For example I interpreted the answers "3 +1 votes" and "more +1 than -1"
> as being ANDed to form the correct answer, but Justin told me "more +1 than
> -1" is correct as you could also have "3 +1 and 100000 -1 votes". This was
> not obvious to me and I think if the aggregation of all answers form the
> correct one, It would be more intuitive. I would really like a quiz like
> that that lists up different parts and all that are correct have to be
> clicked. It requires to know the same information, but doesn't make you mad
> if you missed some little trick ;-)
>
> Chris
>
> Am 25.01.18, 08:55 schrieb "Justin Mclean" <ju...@classsoftware.com>:
>
> Hi,
>
> > I return to my point: "No" was the best answer (tho its qualifiers
> were
> > wrong), and the "Yes" was wrong for that question.
>
> Yes I agree No is the best answer (and is the correct answer is just
> about every single case) and Yes is wrong in that question. Is "Yes but
> only for some common build tools.” correct or not, currently I have it down
> as correct, but if it’s not as your saying then the text (and title) at
> [1] I think would need to change. May be best to bring up on legal discuss?
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#build-tools
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>
>
>
>
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Stian Soiland-Reyes <st...@apache.org>.
Thanks for having a go, Justin! We need more ways to explain license and
distribution challenges.
I also got just 1 of 5, even on multiple tries on the same questions. Also
the fact that the correct answer(s) is not shown graphically is confusing.
i thinks such a quiz should not deliberately cover all the subtleties which
as we see here we are not in 100% agreement on; that just make people
conclude that "It's too complicated".
The quiz should rather cover the obvious bits so that this could be used by
newcomers to the Incubator, rather than try to catch out ASF members.
I would avoid tricky multiple choice, except in obvious multi-things like
"which licenses allowed" (which I thought was a good, more obvious
question).
Other kind of simpler questions could be:
Which of these need to include/show LICENCE and NOTICE files for an ASF
release?
Source code release on www.apache.org/dist
Binary release zip on www.apache.org/dist
Binary JARs in Maven Central
Windows installer at Launchpad.net
OSX disk image in Apple store
Source code release in Debian
Here all of the above is right answer. I left out "Source code repository
in git" because at least in Incubator we allow slight diversions here (and
also repos would include older commits possibly pre-ASF).
Which of the below should be included in NOTICE for contributions to Apache
Foo under Apache License 2.0?
1 Apache Software Foundation
2 Apache Foo
3 Apache Foo PMC members
4 Apache Foo Committers who contributed to release
5 Contributors who submitted patches to Apache Foo
6 NOTICE of Apache-licensed code that was included from outside ASF
Only 1,2,6 are correct.
Here I left out "Other Apache Projects which code was reused" and "Code
contributed in software grant" because those can be more complicated.
On 25 Jan 2018 8:02 am, "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de> wrote:
> In general I think it's a great Idea.
> I would really like to bring this to my new Apache colleagues in the PLC4X
> project ... this way they could get up to speed with the formal stuff.
>
> But I think the tool does need a little optimization ;-)
>
> I think from 5 questions I got about 1 right ;-)
>
> But I guess it was mainly cause I interpreted the answers as if they are
> aggregated to form a correct answer.
> For example I interpreted the answers "3 +1 votes" and "more +1 than -1"
> as being ANDed to form the correct answer, but Justin told me "more +1 than
> -1" is correct as you could also have "3 +1 and 100000 -1 votes". This was
> not obvious to me and I think if the aggregation of all answers form the
> correct one, It would be more intuitive. I would really like a quiz like
> that that lists up different parts and all that are correct have to be
> clicked. It requires to know the same information, but doesn't make you mad
> if you missed some little trick ;-)
>
> Chris
>
> Am 25.01.18, 08:55 schrieb "Justin Mclean" <ju...@classsoftware.com>:
>
> Hi,
>
> > I return to my point: "No" was the best answer (tho its qualifiers
> were
> > wrong), and the "Yes" was wrong for that question.
>
> Yes I agree No is the best answer (and is the correct answer is just
> about every single case) and Yes is wrong in that question. Is "Yes but
> only for some common build tools.” correct or not, currently I have it down
> as correct, but if it’s not as your saying then the text (and title) at
> [1] I think would need to change. May be best to bring up on legal discuss?
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#build-tools
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
>
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Christofer Dutz <ch...@c-ware.de>.
In general I think it's a great Idea.
I would really like to bring this to my new Apache colleagues in the PLC4X project ... this way they could get up to speed with the formal stuff.
But I think the tool does need a little optimization ;-)
I think from 5 questions I got about 1 right ;-)
But I guess it was mainly cause I interpreted the answers as if they are aggregated to form a correct answer.
For example I interpreted the answers "3 +1 votes" and "more +1 than -1" as being ANDed to form the correct answer, but Justin told me "more +1 than -1" is correct as you could also have "3 +1 and 100000 -1 votes". This was not obvious to me and I think if the aggregation of all answers form the correct one, It would be more intuitive. I would really like a quiz like that that lists up different parts and all that are correct have to be clicked. It requires to know the same information, but doesn't make you mad if you missed some little trick ;-)
Chris
Am 25.01.18, 08:55 schrieb "Justin Mclean" <ju...@classsoftware.com>:
Hi,
> I return to my point: "No" was the best answer (tho its qualifiers were
> wrong), and the "Yes" was wrong for that question.
Yes I agree No is the best answer (and is the correct answer is just about every single case) and Yes is wrong in that question. Is "Yes but only for some common build tools.” correct or not, currently I have it down as correct, but if it’s not as your saying then the text (and title) at [1] I think would need to change. May be best to bring up on legal discuss?
Thanks,
Justin
1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#build-tools
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> I return to my point: "No" was the best answer (tho its qualifiers were
> wrong), and the "Yes" was wrong for that question.
Yes I agree No is the best answer (and is the correct answer is just about every single case) and Yes is wrong in that question. Is "Yes but only for some common build tools.” correct or not, currently I have it down as correct, but if it’s not as your saying then the text (and title) at [1] I think would need to change. May be best to bring up on legal discuss?
Thanks,
Justin
1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#build-tools
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 12:44 AM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
wrote:
> HI,
>
> > *Dependencies* to build the products. We don't include autoconf itself
>
> Not all of it but you do need to include GPL licensed files. An example
> [1].
>
> Except that they do have a get out jail free provision in them “You need
> not follow the terms of the GNU General Public License when using or
> distributing such scripts,”
>
Which means it isn't GPL'd. Which still means we aren't placing Cat-X files
into our distributions/releases/tarballs.
I return to my point: "No" was the best answer (tho its qualifiers were
wrong), and the "Yes" was wrong for that question.
Bleh. Uninteresting to litigate the right/wrong of this these questions.
ComDev is a better arena, not general@incubator.
-g
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
HI,
> *Dependencies* to build the products. We don't include autoconf itself
Not all of it but you do need to include GPL licensed files. An example [1].
Except that they do have a get out jail free provision in them “You need not follow the terms of the GNU General Public License when using or distributing such scripts,”
Thanks,
Justin.
1. https://github.com/apache/trafficserver/blob/c7cfa081ccc5c0b875a8ee665cde3399c48abd5c/build/ax_compiler_vendor.m4
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 12:20 AM, Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > Here is the precise display:
> >
> > Can Apache distribute products under a prohibited ('Category X') license?
> > No (with a couple of exceptions).Yes but only for some common build
> tools.
> >
> > So I go ahead and click "No" because we distribute ALL products under
> ALv2.
> > And the second option is a misdirect because we only distribute inputs to
> > tools, not the tools themselves (afaik).
>
> My reading of [1] (and I could be wrong) was that it allows distribution
> of Category X build tools in ALv2 software.
>
*Dependencies* to build the products. We don't include autoconf itself. We
don't include libtool itself. We depend upon them in the build system, to
generate artifacts that we *distribute* under ALv2.
Normally, distributions are not supposed to *require* a user to install
Cat-X. But when constructing a release from source (which is different from
a release tarball), then a Cat-X tool can be required. Because the user is
making such a choice. That is very different from a tarball user's choice
being surprised by a Cat-X dependency.
Regardless, I have never seen a file Cat-X licensed within a distribution.
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> Here is the precise display:
>
> Can Apache distribute products under a prohibited ('Category X') license?
> No (with a couple of exceptions).Yes but only for some common build tools.
>
> So I go ahead and click "No" because we distribute ALL products under ALv2.
> And the second option is a misdirect because we only distribute inputs to
> tools, not the tools themselves (afaik).
My reading of [1] (and I could be wrong) was that it allows distribution of Category X build tools in ALv2 software.
Note:
"While such tools may not always be made available under an otherwise compatible license, specific tools have been OK'ed for inclusion in Apache distributions when used for that specific purpose."
Auto tools / Autoconf is GPL licensed. If you run rat an any release that has that in it will flag it as including GPL software.
Thanks,
Justin
1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#build-tools
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 12:01 AM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
wrote:
> HI,
>
> > No, I'm not gonna issue PRs. The methodology of presenting 2 of 3
> answers,
> > then saying I got it wrong because I couldn't click that not-shown 3rd…
>
> It not doing that it only scores the check boxes on the screen.
>
And as I said: of the two shown about Cat-X, I clicked the proper one. AND
IT STILL SCORED WRONG.
Here is the precise display:
Can Apache distribute products under a prohibited ('Category X') license?
No (with a couple of exceptions).Yes but only for some common build tools.
So I go ahead and click "No" because we distribute ALL products under ALv2.
And the second option is a misdirect because we only distribute inputs to
tools, not the tools themselves (afaik). And then the quiz tells me "Prohibited
licensed software can not be distributed." ... I KNOW THAT. THAT IS HOW I
ANSWERED.
But you said there is some hidden 3rd option to this quiz, that I couldn't
reach and use to properly answer.
Even though "No" *is* the proper answer. Only sort of, because I'm unaware
of any exceptions.
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
HI,
> No, I'm not gonna issue PRs. The methodology of presenting 2 of 3 answers,
> then saying I got it wrong because I couldn't click that not-shown 3rd…
It not doing that it only scores the check boxes on the screen.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > "manually placed into www.apache.org/dist" ... I left that box
> unchecked,
> > and well... dang. I still got it wrong, it seems.
>
> There no question with that answer that I can see. There’s is one that say
> "Place the artifacts in www.apache.org/dist.” which you do need to check.
> I could replace “Place” with “svn mv” if you think that is more accurate.
>
That's the right text. I just typed from memory.
Point holds.
No, I'm not gonna issue PRs. The methodology of presenting 2 of 3 answers,
then saying I got it wrong because I couldn't click that not-shown 3rd...
Nah.
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> "manually placed into www.apache.org/dist" ... I left that box unchecked,
> and well... dang. I still got it wrong, it seems.
There no question with that answer that I can see. There’s is one that say "Place the artifacts in www.apache.org/dist.” which you do need to check. I could replace “Place” with “svn mv” if you think that is more accurate.
Better still take a look at the JSON [1] and submit pull requests / raise some issues.
Thanks,
Justin
1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/blob/master/src/quiz.json
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
"manually placed into www.apache.org/dist" ... I left that box unchecked,
and well... dang. I still got it wrong, it seems.
Nobody puts stuff there. You "svn mv" the release from dev/$project/foo to
release/$project/foo, and our systems auto-update the www.a.o/dist area.
Misleading.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:37 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> > There were just two.
>>>
>>> Correct it shows two answers randomly out the 3 it knows about. That way
>>> it’s a little different every time.
>>>
>>
>> So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
>> answer, and it still dings me?
>>
>> I call shenanigans. Gonna go get my broom.
>>
>
> And as you suggested, the possibility of erroneous Q&A. I just got: "Releases
> use majority approval voting (i.e at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 votes
> than -1 votes) and the vote should to be open 72 hours so that everyone has
> a chance to vote."
>
> That is false. A release cannot be voted against. You get (3) +1 votes,
> and it's done.
>
> -g
>
>
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:45 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > And as you suggested, the possibility of erroneous Q&A. I just got:
> "Releases
> > use majority approval voting (i.e at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 votes
> > than -1 votes) and the vote should to be open 72 hours so that everyone
> has
> > a chance to vote."
> >
> > That is false. A release cannot be voted against. You get (3) +1 votes,
> and
> > it's done.
>
> My understanding has always been that it needs more +1’s than -1’s as
> well. A -1 is not a veto but it still need more +1s than -1s. [1][2] That
> seem in line with the documentation.
Yeah, I was braindead. Right. No vetoes, but positive voting. My bad.
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> And as you suggested, the possibility of erroneous Q&A. I just got: "Releases
> use majority approval voting (i.e at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 votes
> than -1 votes) and the vote should to be open 72 hours so that everyone has
> a chance to vote."
>
> That is false. A release cannot be voted against. You get (3) +1 votes, and
> it's done.
My understanding has always been that it needs more +1’s than -1’s as well. A -1 is not a veto but it still need more +1s than -1s. [1][2] That seem in line with the documentation.
Thanks,
Justin
1.https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#ReleaseVotes
2. https://www.apache.org/foundation/glossary.html#MajorityApproval
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> > There were just two.
>>
>> Correct it shows two answers randomly out the 3 it knows about. That way
>> it’s a little different every time.
>>
>
> So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
> answer, and it still dings me?
>
> I call shenanigans. Gonna go get my broom.
>
And as you suggested, the possibility of erroneous Q&A. I just got: "Releases
use majority approval voting (i.e at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 votes
than -1 votes) and the vote should to be open 72 hours so that everyone has
a chance to vote."
That is false. A release cannot be voted against. You get (3) +1 votes, and
it's done.
-g
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > There were just two.
>
> Correct it shows two answers randomly out the 3 it knows about. That way
> it’s a little different every time.
>
So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
answer, and it still dings me?
I call shenanigans. Gonna go get my broom.
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> There were just two.
Correct it shows two answers randomly out the 3 it knows about. That way it’s a little different every time.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:31 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
> > when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
> > said “No”
>
> Some of them are subtle. You may have to check more than one box to get
> all the right answers.
>
> For that question:
> Can Apache distribute products under a prohibited ('Category X') license?
>
> There are three answers:
>
There were just two.
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
> when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
> said “No”
Some of them are subtle. You may have to check more than one box to get all the right answers.
For that question:
Can Apache distribute products under a prohibited ('Category X') license?
There are three answers:
Yes for all bundled software.
No (with a couple of exceptions).
Yes but only for some common build tools.
And if you read [1] you see that two of those options are right. Depending on what was shown you may of had to tick one or two boxes.
> That was the final straw after a series of
> multiple-choice questions that I got "not quite right", thinking maybe I
> missed some nuance.
Double check the hints they give you clues and the links provided, but it’s certainly possible I have a couple of errors in there.
You can allways look at the JSON file.
Thanks,
Justin
1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#build-tools
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 10:27 PM, Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-01-24 at 23:03 -0600, Greg Stein wrote:
>> Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
>> when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
>> said "No", it said "not quite right".
>
> A veritable triumph. It has demonstrated that Apache policy
> is to confuse an issue just enough to cause the scholars
> to debate at length how many angels can dance on the pinhead
> of a release.
>
> I'll get me coat.
BEST! COMMENT! EVER!
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2018-01-24 at 23:03 -0600, Greg Stein wrote:
> Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
> when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
> said "No", it said "not quite right".
A veritable triumph. It has demonstrated that Apache policy
is to confuse an issue just enough to cause the scholars
to debate at length how many angels can dance on the pinhead
of a release.
I'll get me coat.
--
Nick Kew
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 01/25/2018 07:07 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 9:55 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>> I got inconsistent results from the same answer out of the same choices on the same question. It was not clear to me that many of the questions are “check all that apply”.
>>
>> I will add that to make it clearer.
>>
>>> Some of the questions are poorly worded, e.g. something like “can Apache rely on cat X software”:
>>
>> I used that wording as it is used in the legal resolved page. [1] “depend” or “rely on a dependancy” may be better words to use.
>>
>>> For many of the questions I thought there was a mismatch between my understanding of Apache policy and any of the possible answers presented, and I ended up feeling vaguely insulted.
>>
>> Sorry that was certainly not my intention.
>
> I was holding off on this -- but now I just can't resit. So here it goes:
>
> Surely we are not talking about some kind of an official ASF exam test
> here, right?
>
> This is more of a fun quiz that makes people think about certain things which
> means that anything goes -- trick questions, silly questions, whatever (not that
> I'm making a judgement call on what Justin has there -- just pointing
> this out in
> general).
>
> In that sense, how could anyone has a "...I ended up feeling vaguely insulted"
> is a tad beyond my understanding.
>
> So I guess my only bit of feedback would be this: use this opportunity to make
> the test go: "ah well, here's the thing..." when somebody ends up with one
> of those "not quite" answers.
Trick questions could be fun ;) provided they are educational.
>
> Just my 2c.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz.
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> Surely we are not talking about some kind of an official ASF exam test
> here, right?
No it would never be a PMC entry exam :-)
> This is more of a fun quiz that makes people think about certain things which
> means that anything goes
Correct!
> So I guess my only bit of feedback would be this: use this opportunity to make
> the test go: "ah well, here's the thing..." when somebody ends up with one
> of those "not quite" answers.
Which is what the test is trying to doing by providing hints to any incorrect answers and links to policy explaining them. If you get something wrong hopefully it will make you think and read the policy.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 9:55 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> I got inconsistent results from the same answer out of the same choices on the same question. It was not clear to me that many of the questions are “check all that apply”.
>
> I will add that to make it clearer.
>
>> Some of the questions are poorly worded, e.g. something like “can Apache rely on cat X software”:
>
> I used that wording as it is used in the legal resolved page. [1] “depend” or “rely on a dependancy” may be better words to use.
>
>> For many of the questions I thought there was a mismatch between my understanding of Apache policy and any of the possible answers presented, and I ended up feeling vaguely insulted.
>
> Sorry that was certainly not my intention.
I was holding off on this -- but now I just can't resit. So here it goes:
Surely we are not talking about some kind of an official ASF exam test
here, right?
This is more of a fun quiz that makes people think about certain things which
means that anything goes -- trick questions, silly questions, whatever (not that
I'm making a judgement call on what Justin has there -- just pointing
this out in
general).
In that sense, how could anyone has a "...I ended up feeling vaguely insulted"
is a tad beyond my understanding.
So I guess my only bit of feedback would be this: use this opportunity to make
the test go: "ah well, here's the thing..." when somebody ends up with one
of those "not quite" answers.
Just my 2c.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> I got inconsistent results from the same answer out of the same choices on the same question. It was not clear to me that many of the questions are “check all that apply”.
I will add that to make it clearer.
> Some of the questions are poorly worded, e.g. something like “can Apache rely on cat X software”:
I used that wording as it is used in the legal resolved page. [1] “depend” or “rely on a dependancy” may be better words to use.
> For many of the questions I thought there was a mismatch between my understanding of Apache policy and any of the possible answers presented, and I ended up feeling vaguely insulted.
Sorry that was certainly not my intention.
Thanks,
Justin
1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#optional
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by David Jencks <da...@gmail.com>.
I got inconsistent results from the same answer out of the same choices on the same question. It was not clear to me that many of the questions are “check all that apply”. Some of the questions are poorly worded, e.g. something like “can Apache rely on cat X software”: most of the projects I know about rely on Apache infra running Jira so it’s hard to call that an optional dependency of any kind. From the “explanations” of what we’re deemed my wrong answers I think the question was intended to be closer to “can an Apache project have a dependency on cat X software”.
For many of the questions I thought there was a mismatch between my understanding of Apache policy and any of the possible answers presented, and I ended up feeling vaguely insulted.
David Jencks
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:03 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
> when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
> said "No", it said "not quite right". That was a simple yes/no, and an
> obvious "no" answer. ... That was the final straw after a series of
> multiple-choice questions that I got "not quite right", thinking maybe I
> missed some nuance. Not at all. When it said my "no" answer wasn't right...
> Well.
>
> The quiz logic seems broken.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> A while back I posted a little logo game. [1] Well after a few comments on
>> the incubator list around projects possibly graduating without fully
>> understanding ASF policy, and some issues with recent release got me
>> thinking is there another way we can present this information. So I made a
>> little multiple choice quiz on ASF policy. [2] Give it a try [3] and tell
>> me what you think. (It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game
>> but aimed at a different audience.)
>>
>> Currently it only has a dozen or so questions with some variation, so you
>> may get the same question asked but it’s likely to have different answers
>> in a different order. Anyway if people think this is useful perhaps we can
>> expand it with more questions and broaden the scope to include other areas
>> like the Apache Way, how the foundation works and the like.
>>
>> I may of made mistakes and it likely some words and sentences probably
>> need correcting. Proof readers and PRs welcome.
>>
>> BTW it doesn’t save your scores anywhere so if you get a question wrong
>> only you will know but hopefully you might learn something. Have a record
>> of number of people taking the quiz and results by incubating project might
>> be interesting but probably a little invasive.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Justin
>>
>> 1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos
>> 2. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz
>> 3. https://rawgit.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/master/compiled/index.html
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>>
>>
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
said "No", it said "not quite right". That was a simple yes/no, and an
obvious "no" answer. ... That was the final straw after a series of
multiple-choice questions that I got "not quite right", thinking maybe I
missed some nuance. Not at all. When it said my "no" answer wasn't right...
Well.
The quiz logic seems broken.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A while back I posted a little logo game. [1] Well after a few comments on
> the incubator list around projects possibly graduating without fully
> understanding ASF policy, and some issues with recent release got me
> thinking is there another way we can present this information. So I made a
> little multiple choice quiz on ASF policy. [2] Give it a try [3] and tell
> me what you think. (It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game
> but aimed at a different audience.)
>
> Currently it only has a dozen or so questions with some variation, so you
> may get the same question asked but it’s likely to have different answers
> in a different order. Anyway if people think this is useful perhaps we can
> expand it with more questions and broaden the scope to include other areas
> like the Apache Way, how the foundation works and the like.
>
> I may of made mistakes and it likely some words and sentences probably
> need correcting. Proof readers and PRs welcome.
>
> BTW it doesn’t save your scores anywhere so if you get a question wrong
> only you will know but hopefully you might learn something. Have a record
> of number of people taking the quiz and results by incubating project might
> be interesting but probably a little invasive.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos
> 2. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz
> 3. https://rawgit.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/master/compiled/index.html
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>
>
Re: Apache Policy Quiz
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
said "No", it said "not quite right". That was a simple yes/no, and an
obvious "no" answer. ... That was the final straw after a series of
multiple-choice questions that I got "not quite right", thinking maybe I
missed some nuance. Not at all. When it said my "no" answer wasn't right...
Well.
The quiz logic seems broken.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A while back I posted a little logo game. [1] Well after a few comments on
> the incubator list around projects possibly graduating without fully
> understanding ASF policy, and some issues with recent release got me
> thinking is there another way we can present this information. So I made a
> little multiple choice quiz on ASF policy. [2] Give it a try [3] and tell
> me what you think. (It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game
> but aimed at a different audience.)
>
> Currently it only has a dozen or so questions with some variation, so you
> may get the same question asked but it’s likely to have different answers
> in a different order. Anyway if people think this is useful perhaps we can
> expand it with more questions and broaden the scope to include other areas
> like the Apache Way, how the foundation works and the like.
>
> I may of made mistakes and it likely some words and sentences probably
> need correcting. Proof readers and PRs welcome.
>
> BTW it doesn’t save your scores anywhere so if you get a question wrong
> only you will know but hopefully you might learn something. Have a record
> of number of people taking the quiz and results by incubating project might
> be interesting but probably a little invasive.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos
> 2. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz
> 3. https://rawgit.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/master/compiled/index.html
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>
>