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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> on 2020/02/27 15:56:03 UTC
Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
This may touch some nerves, but just a quick comment from long time and grateful NetBeans user:
1. Frequent and time-based releases directly from master branch is the way to go! If a feature doesn't fit the release, code "feature toggles" and shoot for the next release.
2. Forget LTS releases - A release is a release is a release. If this release is not to your liking, download the previous one you like, or better yet contribute the change you like to the next release.
3. Forget NetCAT - every developer herself and every end user is responsible and contributing for testing and quality.
On 2019/05/13 17:20:37, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As part of taking on release managing the next release, I said I'd
> like to try and tie up the various things people have suggested around
> quarterly / time-based releases into one plan. I admit to having some
> reluctance volunteering for that role while there were still
> discussions around how to decide what goes in it, whether it was 11.1
> or 12, and what branch to build it off! :-)
>
> So, I've had a re-read of various threads we've had about this in the
> past, and tried to come up with something that combines things that
> have been suggested, what feels deliverable, reservations people had,
> and where NetCAT fits in to all this.
>
> Full version is here. It's a draft! (It did have draft in the title
> until I got annoyed with Confluence's approach to linking).
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Release+Schedule
>
> Some key things.
>
> * Fixed quarterly releases based off master.
> * Fixed merge windows and feature freeze dates.
> * Annual LTS releases that go through full NetCAT process and remain
> downloadable for the year. Minimal backporting of critical bugs - you
> want features, jump on the fast train and help test them.
> * LTS has shorter merge window to allow time for NetCAT, and should
> have less new features anyway!
> * Next releases are then NB 11.1 (Jul), NB 11.2 (Oct), NB 11.3 (Jan
> 2020), NB 12.0 LTS (Apr 2020) - perhaps counter-intuitively major
> version increases when least new features.
> * NB 11.0 remains available until next April.
> * All commits to master go in the next release and release branch
> merges everything - so no feature merges to master outside of the
> merge window, and all merges during those periods take into account
> the bug priority guidelines.
> * Feature freeze for NB 11.1 would be ~15th June. (if everyone's on
> board with this be good to publicise that fact soon!)
>
> Please feel free to take it apart .. gently! ;-) Suggestions that
> this is all about making my job easier over the next couple of months
> are .. entirely correct.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
> They want the latest and great release that "works", and don't care about a once a year LTS release no matter how stable it is.
I agree with this angle. I don't actually remember / know why an LTS
was picked... but the NetCAT angle seems practical in a way.
If users want to be on the bleeding edge they can always pick another
'release channel' and NetBeans could push beta/dev/canary updates
there.
Users stick on a fixed version for various reasons, not only because
they need LTS assurances. As soon as something breaks or needs too
much work for a new release some users will just stick with the last
known version where their project worked.
What would help is NetBeans being a rolling release. Upgrading from
one release to another should be easier.
--emi
On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 6:54 PM Qingtian Wang
<qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Neil. I think the numbered list you give here sums up the opposing forces for the release plan rather well.
>
> And yes, my comments are for me only; however, I know for a fact my observation on LTS is not only for me - it's out of tens of clients/corporations where people (myself included) are more interested in using IDEs professionally (read make a living/money). They want the latest and great release that "works", and don't care about a once a year LTS release no matter how stable it is. To be honest, those users are in a sense selfish and contribute back rarely (myself included); but I am afraid they are the silent majority: You see the "significant number of people" that complains on needing frequent updates because they are actually "better citizens" of the community that take the time to voice their opinions - most other people wouldn't even bother.
>
> BTW, I see this release schedule on the web page:
>
> February 15th - 30th NB <version>.3 released.
>
> So it looks like 11.3 release is imminent, so congrats and many thanks! But I won't be holding my breath on a Feb 30 release even this is a leap year.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> On 2020/02/27 19:18:09, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 18:33, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> > > LTS releases have little meaning (again for me)
> >
> > With big emphasis on "again for you"! ;-)
> >
> > Laszlo hit the nail on the head with the comment about LTS and NetCAT
> > going hand in hand. For perspective, I wrote the initial draft
> > release schedule (which has changed a bit since) to meet a few
> > requirements that were coming out from discussions among the community
> > here -
> >
> > 1. A general consensus that we wanted a faster release schedule -
> > probably quarterly - certainly quicker than that might be more
> > difficult for users and release managers!
> > 2. A significant number of people (eg. corporate / education) who
> > voiced concerns on needing to update too often.
> > 3. A general consensus that NetCAT was an incredibly valuable part of
> > NetBeans that we wanted to keep going at Apache.
> > 4. A recognition that running NetCAT for every quarterly release is
> > impractical and will lead to volunteer burnout.
> >
> > The release schedule was written to try and meet all those concerns -
> > I didn't make much up, I just picked the various things people had
> > said and tried to combine as much as possible into something coherent.
> > If we can only do NetCAT once a year, then an LTS makes some sense too
> > as a reason, and addresses #2. And having 9 months of the year focused
> > on new features and 3 months on ensuring they're perfect seems a good
> > balance to me personally.
> >
> > The release schedule is not set in stone. It's already been tweaked
> > in various ways. And it can and should adapt again. It's all a big,
> > ever changing balancing act! :-)
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com>.
Thanks Neil. I think the numbered list you give here sums up the opposing forces for the release plan rather well.
And yes, my comments are for me only; however, I know for a fact my observation on LTS is not only for me - it's out of tens of clients/corporations where people (myself included) are more interested in using IDEs professionally (read make a living/money). They want the latest and great release that "works", and don't care about a once a year LTS release no matter how stable it is. To be honest, those users are in a sense selfish and contribute back rarely (myself included); but I am afraid they are the silent majority: You see the "significant number of people" that complains on needing frequent updates because they are actually "better citizens" of the community that take the time to voice their opinions - most other people wouldn't even bother.
BTW, I see this release schedule on the web page:
February 15th - 30th NB <version>.3 released.
So it looks like 11.3 release is imminent, so congrats and many thanks! But I won't be holding my breath on a Feb 30 release even this is a leap year.
Cheers!
On 2020/02/27 19:18:09, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 18:33, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> > LTS releases have little meaning (again for me)
>
> With big emphasis on "again for you"! ;-)
>
> Laszlo hit the nail on the head with the comment about LTS and NetCAT
> going hand in hand. For perspective, I wrote the initial draft
> release schedule (which has changed a bit since) to meet a few
> requirements that were coming out from discussions among the community
> here -
>
> 1. A general consensus that we wanted a faster release schedule -
> probably quarterly - certainly quicker than that might be more
> difficult for users and release managers!
> 2. A significant number of people (eg. corporate / education) who
> voiced concerns on needing to update too often.
> 3. A general consensus that NetCAT was an incredibly valuable part of
> NetBeans that we wanted to keep going at Apache.
> 4. A recognition that running NetCAT for every quarterly release is
> impractical and will lead to volunteer burnout.
>
> The release schedule was written to try and meet all those concerns -
> I didn't make much up, I just picked the various things people had
> said and tried to combine as much as possible into something coherent.
> If we can only do NetCAT once a year, then an LTS makes some sense too
> as a reason, and addresses #2. And having 9 months of the year focused
> on new features and 3 months on ensuring they're perfect seems a good
> balance to me personally.
>
> The release schedule is not set in stone. It's already been tweaked
> in various ways. And it can and should adapt again. It's all a big,
> ever changing balancing act! :-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 18:33, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> LTS releases have little meaning (again for me)
With big emphasis on "again for you"! ;-)
Laszlo hit the nail on the head with the comment about LTS and NetCAT
going hand in hand. For perspective, I wrote the initial draft
release schedule (which has changed a bit since) to meet a few
requirements that were coming out from discussions among the community
here -
1. A general consensus that we wanted a faster release schedule -
probably quarterly - certainly quicker than that might be more
difficult for users and release managers!
2. A significant number of people (eg. corporate / education) who
voiced concerns on needing to update too often.
3. A general consensus that NetCAT was an incredibly valuable part of
NetBeans that we wanted to keep going at Apache.
4. A recognition that running NetCAT for every quarterly release is
impractical and will lead to volunteer burnout.
The release schedule was written to try and meet all those concerns -
I didn't make much up, I just picked the various things people had
said and tried to combine as much as possible into something coherent.
If we can only do NetCAT once a year, then an LTS makes some sense too
as a reason, and addresses #2. And having 9 months of the year focused
on new features and 3 months on ensuring they're perfect seems a good
balance to me personally.
The release schedule is not set in stone. It's already been tweaked
in various ways. And it can and should adapt again. It's all a big,
ever changing balancing act! :-)
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com>.
I guess the point of discussion here is "how fast" we want to go when it comes to releases. My two cents as an end user is: Daily build is too fast (for me, because too many things might be broken); LTS releases have little meaning (again for me) if that means any slow down of the progress.
As a contractor I worked for tens of clients/companies. My observation is that unlike OS or JDK which is often tied to entire organizations, IDEs are personal. The company would always talk about LTS release for JDK/OS, but I have not heard any company or developer talk about LTS on IDEs - be it Eclipse, InjelliJ, NetBeans... People move on to the next release as soon as they can, be that a LTS or not.
On 2020/02/27 17:16:35, Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well,
>
> 1. I think we are having it right now, thanks to Neil and Eric, so far
> quarterly releases seems to be just fine, especially support wise. We
> still need to recommend a lot of users to upgrade from NetBeans 10 or
> 11.1 to 11 or 11.2 (or this time 11.3). Unless we are able to deliver
> something like a rolling release (like a release which is connect to a
> regularly refreshed update center), more releases would mean more
> confusion to the users. Though even with a rolling release, it can't
> really be called as a release as we have work to do beside of just
> building the code. On the other hand we have such a builds, though not
> for wide audience, but netbeans-dev Snap package is refreshed on every
> Thursday (at least), though it has 10-15 people using that one including
> myself.
>
> 2. and 3. LTS and NetCat they are hand-in-hand together. Broader
> testcase based QA is a real asset, if Apache NetBeans were a company
> product and I'd be a CTO there, I'd definitely would invest more on that
> side. LTS have a value especially for corporate users/education, who are
> focused on work or study, and can be disrupted with every little changes
> we make.
>
> So if you would like to move faster and be more up to date on the IDE,
> daily builds are there or if you are lucky to run Linux just use the
> netbeans-dev Snap package for the convenience.
>
> On 2/27/20 8:08 AM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 15:58, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> >> 1. Frequent and time-based releases directly from master branch is the way to go! If a feature doesn't fit the release, code "feature toggles" and shoot for the next release.
> > +1
> >
> >> 2. Forget LTS releases - A release is a release is a release. If this release is not to your liking, download the previous one you like, or better yet contribute the change you like to the next release.
> > -1
> >
> >> 3. Forget NetCAT - every developer herself and every end user is responsible and contributing for testing and quality.
> > -1, but +1 to the second bit - which is exactly why you should get
> > involved in NetCAT! ;-)
> >
> > Apologies for any nerve touching!
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com>.
Well,
1. I think we are having it right now, thanks to Neil and Eric, so far
quarterly releases seems to be just fine, especially support wise. We
still need to recommend a lot of users to upgrade from NetBeans 10 or
11.1 to 11 or 11.2 (or this time 11.3). Unless we are able to deliver
something like a rolling release (like a release which is connect to a
regularly refreshed update center), more releases would mean more
confusion to the users. Though even with a rolling release, it can't
really be called as a release as we have work to do beside of just
building the code. On the other hand we have such a builds, though not
for wide audience, but netbeans-dev Snap package is refreshed on every
Thursday (at least), though it has 10-15 people using that one including
myself.
2. and 3. LTS and NetCat they are hand-in-hand together. Broader
testcase based QA is a real asset, if Apache NetBeans were a company
product and I'd be a CTO there, I'd definitely would invest more on that
side. LTS have a value especially for corporate users/education, who are
focused on work or study, and can be disrupted with every little changes
we make.
So if you would like to move faster and be more up to date on the IDE,
daily builds are there or if you are lucky to run Linux just use the
netbeans-dev Snap package for the convenience.
On 2/27/20 8:08 AM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 15:58, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
>> 1. Frequent and time-based releases directly from master branch is the way to go! If a feature doesn't fit the release, code "feature toggles" and shoot for the next release.
> +1
>
>> 2. Forget LTS releases - A release is a release is a release. If this release is not to your liking, download the previous one you like, or better yet contribute the change you like to the next release.
> -1
>
>> 3. Forget NetCAT - every developer herself and every end user is responsible and contributing for testing and quality.
> -1, but +1 to the second bit - which is exactly why you should get
> involved in NetCAT! ;-)
>
> Apologies for any nerve touching!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Draft release schedule
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 15:58, Qingtian Wang <qi...@evergreenelite.com> wrote:
> 1. Frequent and time-based releases directly from master branch is the way to go! If a feature doesn't fit the release, code "feature toggles" and shoot for the next release.
+1
> 2. Forget LTS releases - A release is a release is a release. If this release is not to your liking, download the previous one you like, or better yet contribute the change you like to the next release.
-1
> 3. Forget NetCAT - every developer herself and every end user is responsible and contributing for testing and quality.
-1, but +1 to the second bit - which is exactly why you should get
involved in NetCAT! ;-)
Apologies for any nerve touching!
Best wishes,
Neil
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