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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by kf...@collab.net on 2003/08/05 16:03:03 UTC
Re: [Fwd: Caching password in Windows 98]
Lübbe Onken <L....@rac.de> writes:
> since we are having the same problem here (5 developers on Win98), we are
> very much interested into getting that patch into SVN too.
>
> [...]
>
> IMHO Subversions login handling is not really user friendly. For instance:
> If I connect to a password protected repository for the fist time,
> Subversion tries to connect with my windows user ID (yes I know about
> --username) and asks for my windows password. If this fails, SVN asks me for
> another UID and the corresponding password.
> On a Win98 client Subversion cannot get a UID and fails instantly instead of
> trying to request the necessary information from the user as it does on
> other OSes if the login fails for some other reason.
> Not very smart, from a users point of view.
Agreed. I've CC'd the dev list, since this is now getting into the
territory of a behavior change.
If you read this whole thread, there is no consensus on Stefan's patch
as a solution:
http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=dev&by=thread&from=101363
The first thing I'd like to do is get a clear, concise description of
exactly what the bug is, and file an issue. This is not specific to
just Win98, but to any system where getuid() could fail. (I know this
insistence on an issue might seem like reflexive bureaucracy, but I
find it makes it much easier to understand & solve the problem.)
Your mail is the closest we've gotten to a summary so far; let me try
to boil it down further:
1) Right now, failing to get the username from the system is a
fatal error. It would be better if when the client fails to get
a username from the system, it would simply prompt the user
(just as if it had gotten a username, but that username had
failed the authentication challenge with the repository).
2) If the client gets a username (by any means), that username
should always be cached *unless* it fails an authentication
challenge. In other words, if no challenge happens, but we have
auth parameters available, then cache them -- it can't hurt.
Now, regarding the TSVN behavior you described:
> A different thing is, that with TSVN as a client, I have no chance of
> telling SVN beforehand which UID I want to use when I connect to a
> repository, until the login credentials are cached by SVN. In this case I
> have to let the first login attempt fail (confusing, but I know that by
> now), before I get my second chance to enter the correct UID/password.
>
> I don't know if TSVN has a chance to work around the above behaviour (I'll
> ask on the TSVN list), but I think it would be nice, if upon the first
> connect, the SVN API would provide a response to the client like:
> "trying to connect with username:" <Username>.
> If SVN couldn't get a UID (eg. win98), the username string would be blank.
> Now different clients can react differently:
> - The command line client can still try to connect to the repository
> immediately using the provided username, asking only for a password, or ask
> for a uid/password if the username is blank.
> - TSVN (or any other GUI client) can pop up a username/password dialog,
> where the UID is already filled in.
It seems to me if we fix problem (1) from my list above, then TSVN
will just Do The Right Thing automatically, right? Internally, the
svn client will try to get a username from the system, and then maybe
from the cache. If it fails, the first user-visible thing it will do
is prompt. TSVN can see this, and propagate the prompt to the user.
And independently of the above, TSVN can/should offer a way to set
--username and --password in advance of initiating any operation.
So I think if we fix (1) and (2), the rest of the solution is in
TSVN's domain.
> This way we could get around that confusing "fail once, success later"
> behaviour.
Yup, that would be nice.
Folks, have I summarized this problem correctly, or am I missing
something important here? Feedback welcome, please get to me before I
file an issue... :-)
-Karl
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Re: [Fwd: Caching password in Windows 98]
Posted by John Locke <ma...@freelock.com>.
Reposting, on Karl's request...
On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 09:03, kfogel@collab.net wrote:
> to boil it down further:
>
> 1) Right now, failing to get the username from the system is a
> fatal error. It would be better if when the client fails to get
> a username from the system, it would simply prompt the user
> (just as if it had gotten a username, but that username had
> failed the authentication challenge with the repository).
>
> 2) If the client gets a username (by any means), that username
> should always be cached *unless* it fails an authentication
> challenge. In other words, if no challenge happens, but we have
> auth parameters available, then cache them -- it can't hurt.
>
> So I think if we fix (1) and (2), the rest of the solution is in
> TSVN's domain.
>
> Folks, have I summarized this problem correctly, or am I missing
> something important here? Feedback welcome, please get to me before I
> file an issue... :-)
Sounds good to me... thanks for taking this up! Turns out I had lost
some users before even knowing there was a problem...
FWIW, (1) is what I see as being the fundamental problem, because it
prevents non-technical users on Windows 98 from being able to use
Subversion at all. Caching is a convenience issue--the fatal error makes
it entirely broken.
--John
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Re: [Fwd: Caching password in Windows 98]
Posted by SteveKing <st...@gmx.ch>.
----- Original Message -----
From: <kf...@collab.net>
[snip]
> If you read this whole thread, there is no consensus on Stefan's patch
> as a solution:
>
>
http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=dev&by=thread&from=101363
I know. I tried to explain myself and the situation but did not succeed.
> The first thing I'd like to do is get a clear, concise description of
> exactly what the bug is, and file an issue. This is not specific to
> just Win98, but to any system where getuid() could fail. (I know this
> insistence on an issue might seem like reflexive bureaucracy, but I
> find it makes it much easier to understand & solve the problem.)
>
> Your mail is the closest we've gotten to a summary so far; let me try
> to boil it down further:
>
> 1) Right now, failing to get the username from the system is a
> fatal error. It would be better if when the client fails to get
> a username from the system, it would simply prompt the user
> (just as if it had gotten a username, but that username had
> failed the authentication challenge with the repository).
That's what I tried to do with the patch. I guess the patch is now
outdated since it's made to a revision far in the past.
I admit that failing to get the username on a Linux/Unix system or
on a winNT based system _is_ a fatal error, it is the normal behaviour
on win98 based systems (or any other system where you don't have
to logon).
>
> 2) If the client gets a username (by any means), that username
> should always be cached *unless* it fails an authentication
> challenge. In other words, if no challenge happens, but we have
> auth parameters available, then cache them -- it can't hurt.
Agreed.
> Now, regarding the TSVN behavior you described:
[snip]
> It seems to me if we fix problem (1) from my list above, then TSVN
> will just Do The Right Thing automatically, right? Internally, the
Right. Also the command line client would also _ask_ for a username
and not error out.
> svn client will try to get a username from the system, and then maybe
> from the cache. If it fails, the first user-visible thing it will do
> is prompt. TSVN can see this, and propagate the prompt to the user.
It'll do that.
>
> And independently of the above, TSVN can/should offer a way to set
> --username and --password in advance of initiating any operation.
I may miss something here but I can't see what this should be good for?
For the command line client is is a good option to pass --username and
--password so you can use the client with a script. But TSVN is not
scriptable and user interaction is always possible.
> So I think if we fix (1) and (2), the rest of the solution is in
> TSVN's domain.
If (1) is fixed, everything will work fine with TSVN (and the CL client
too).
> > This way we could get around that confusing "fail once, success later"
> > behaviour.
>
> Yup, that would be nice.
>
> Folks, have I summarized this problem correctly, or am I missing
> something important here? Feedback welcome, please get to me before I
> file an issue... :-)
I think the summary is ok. Thanks!
Stefan
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Re: [Fwd: Caching password in Windows 98]
Posted by SteveKing <st...@gmx.ch>.
----- Original Message -----
From: <kf...@collab.net>
[snip]
> If you read this whole thread, there is no consensus on Stefan's patch
> as a solution:
>
>
http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=dev&by=thread&from=101363
I know. I tried to explain myself and the situation but did not succeed.
> The first thing I'd like to do is get a clear, concise description of
> exactly what the bug is, and file an issue. This is not specific to
> just Win98, but to any system where getuid() could fail. (I know this
> insistence on an issue might seem like reflexive bureaucracy, but I
> find it makes it much easier to understand & solve the problem.)
>
> Your mail is the closest we've gotten to a summary so far; let me try
> to boil it down further:
>
> 1) Right now, failing to get the username from the system is a
> fatal error. It would be better if when the client fails to get
> a username from the system, it would simply prompt the user
> (just as if it had gotten a username, but that username had
> failed the authentication challenge with the repository).
That's what I tried to do with the patch. I guess the patch is now
outdated since it's made to a revision far in the past.
I admit that failing to get the username on a Linux/Unix system or
on a winNT based system _is_ a fatal error, it is the normal behaviour
on win98 based systems (or any other system where you don't have
to logon).
>
> 2) If the client gets a username (by any means), that username
> should always be cached *unless* it fails an authentication
> challenge. In other words, if no challenge happens, but we have
> auth parameters available, then cache them -- it can't hurt.
Agreed.
> Now, regarding the TSVN behavior you described:
[snip]
> It seems to me if we fix problem (1) from my list above, then TSVN
> will just Do The Right Thing automatically, right? Internally, the
Right. Also the command line client would also _ask_ for a username
and not error out.
> svn client will try to get a username from the system, and then maybe
> from the cache. If it fails, the first user-visible thing it will do
> is prompt. TSVN can see this, and propagate the prompt to the user.
It'll do that.
>
> And independently of the above, TSVN can/should offer a way to set
> --username and --password in advance of initiating any operation.
I may miss something here but I can't see what this should be good for?
For the command line client is is a good option to pass --username and
--password so you can use the client with a script. But TSVN is not
scriptable and user interaction is always possible.
> So I think if we fix (1) and (2), the rest of the solution is in
> TSVN's domain.
If (1) is fixed, everything will work fine with TSVN (and the CL client
too).
> > This way we could get around that confusing "fail once, success later"
> > behaviour.
>
> Yup, that would be nice.
>
> Folks, have I summarized this problem correctly, or am I missing
> something important here? Feedback welcome, please get to me before I
> file an issue... :-)
I think the summary is ok. Thanks!
Stefan
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Re: [Fwd: Caching password in Windows 98]
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
I hate to do this, but... Can you follow up again, this time including
all recipients (i.e., the dev list). We need to keep this thread
crossposted, since it involves a change.
-K
John Locke <ma...@freelock.com> writes:
> On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 09:03, kfogel@collab.net wrote:
> > to boil it down further:
> >
> > 1) Right now, failing to get the username from the system is a
> > fatal error. It would be better if when the client fails to get
> > a username from the system, it would simply prompt the user
> > (just as if it had gotten a username, but that username had
> > failed the authentication challenge with the repository).
> >
> > 2) If the client gets a username (by any means), that username
> > should always be cached *unless* it fails an authentication
> > challenge. In other words, if no challenge happens, but we have
> > auth parameters available, then cache them -- it can't hurt.
> >
>
> > So I think if we fix (1) and (2), the rest of the solution is in
> > TSVN's domain.
> >
>
> > Folks, have I summarized this problem correctly, or am I missing
> > something important here? Feedback welcome, please get to me before I
> > file an issue... :-)
>
> Sounds good to me... thanks for taking this up! Turns out I had lost
> some users before even knowing there was a problem...
>
> FWIW, (1) is what I see as being the fundamental problem, because it
> prevents non-technical users on Windows 98 from being able to use
> Subversion at all. Caching is a convenience issue--the fatal error makes
> it entirely broken.
>
> --John
>
>
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Re: [Fwd: Caching password in Windows 98]
Posted by John Locke <ma...@freelock.com>.
On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 09:03, kfogel@collab.net wrote:
> to boil it down further:
>
> 1) Right now, failing to get the username from the system is a
> fatal error. It would be better if when the client fails to get
> a username from the system, it would simply prompt the user
> (just as if it had gotten a username, but that username had
> failed the authentication challenge with the repository).
>
> 2) If the client gets a username (by any means), that username
> should always be cached *unless* it fails an authentication
> challenge. In other words, if no challenge happens, but we have
> auth parameters available, then cache them -- it can't hurt.
>
> So I think if we fix (1) and (2), the rest of the solution is in
> TSVN's domain.
>
> Folks, have I summarized this problem correctly, or am I missing
> something important here? Feedback welcome, please get to me before I
> file an issue... :-)
Sounds good to me... thanks for taking this up! Turns out I had lost
some users before even knowing there was a problem...
FWIW, (1) is what I see as being the fundamental problem, because it
prevents non-technical users on Windows 98 from being able to use
Subversion at all. Caching is a convenience issue--the fatal error makes
it entirely broken.
--John
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Re: [Fwd: Caching password in Windows 98]
Posted by John Locke <ma...@freelock.com>.
Reposting, on Karl's request...
On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 09:03, kfogel@collab.net wrote:
> to boil it down further:
>
> 1) Right now, failing to get the username from the system is a
> fatal error. It would be better if when the client fails to get
> a username from the system, it would simply prompt the user
> (just as if it had gotten a username, but that username had
> failed the authentication challenge with the repository).
>
> 2) If the client gets a username (by any means), that username
> should always be cached *unless* it fails an authentication
> challenge. In other words, if no challenge happens, but we have
> auth parameters available, then cache them -- it can't hurt.
>
> So I think if we fix (1) and (2), the rest of the solution is in
> TSVN's domain.
>
> Folks, have I summarized this problem correctly, or am I missing
> something important here? Feedback welcome, please get to me before I
> file an issue... :-)
Sounds good to me... thanks for taking this up! Turns out I had lost
some users before even knowing there was a problem...
FWIW, (1) is what I see as being the fundamental problem, because it
prevents non-technical users on Windows 98 from being able to use
Subversion at all. Caching is a convenience issue--the fatal error makes
it entirely broken.
--John
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