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Posted to diversity@apache.org by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> on 2019/05/13 20:13:56 UTC
[FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
relevant issues for Apache?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
and fix errors.
--------------------------------------------------------------
1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
due to subconscious bias.
2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
discouraging.
3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
woman.
4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
you refer to them in an e-mail.
--------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 13/05/2019 18.03, Matt Sicker wrote:
> This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want
> non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice
> website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community!
I'd add non-shitty code to that as well ;-). Your comment touches on one
aspect: that there is more to a project than code, and a diverse set of
skilled people is needed.
I'd go further and say there's more to a project than *your* code, and
you might find yourself and your code improving by allowing a larger,
more diverse set of users and developers in...even if you end up still
writing the bulk of the code yourself.
There are numerous examples of how people think their program works as
intended, only to find out that *what they intended isn't what they
truly intended*. I have seen mindbogglingly stupid realizations from
people making blow-dryers that wouldn't work when operated by people of
color, I've seen many color-blind people struggle with user interfaces,
as well as a ton of unintended racism, sexism, terms of phrase that just
do not mean that you think they mean, I've seen WAY too many examples of
myself thinking "this is so simple, even a pigeon could operate it! I am
so clever!", only to find that it really wasn't, and my myopic vision
was clouding my judgment and it was horrible and I was a horrible
developer (well, a silly one at least). If you want your project to do
well and work beyond your own personal needs, you need to embrace
diversity and see it for the strength it is.
I am unsure of how specific we want to be in our reasoning, but thought
I'd share some insights into my own mistakes (and those of other people)
anyway :)
With regards,
Daniel.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
>> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
>> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
>> relevant issues for Apache?
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
>> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
>> and fix errors.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
>> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
>> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>>
>> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
>> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
>> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
>> due to subconscious bias.
>>
>> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
>> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
>> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
>> discouraging.
>>
>> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
>> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>>
>> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
>> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
>> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
>> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
>> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
>> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
>> woman.
>>
>> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
>> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
>> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
>> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
I think the point was not that the FAQ needed those things, but the ASF
at large :D and that the different way of phrasing it was intended to
draw attention to all of those things.
-Joan
On 2019-05-13 6:45 p.m., Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> I would love truly elegant documentation. However, I am neither a
> Confluence expert nor a graphic designer. As you say, it needs a community.
>
> Perhaps people who are good at graphic design could create frameworks
> for the FAQ and Resources? Should each of them, long term, be Wiki pages
> or pages in a D&I web site? However it is done, it cannot depend on
> graphics. There are some readers who will only have access to whatever
> text their browser can extract.
>
> Curating the initial content is something that seems to me to need doing
> and that I think I know how to do, so I started doing it.
>
> On 5/13/2019 3:03 PM, Matt Sicker wrote:
>> This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want
>> non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice
>> website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community!
>>
>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
>>> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
>>> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
>>> relevant issues for Apache?
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
>>> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
>>> and fix errors.
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
>>> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
>>> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail
>>> interaction.
>>>
>>> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
>>> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
>>> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
>>> due to subconscious bias.
>>>
>>> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
>>> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
>>> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
>>> discouraging.
>>>
>>> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
>>> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>>>
>>> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
>>> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
>>> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
>>> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
>>> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
>>> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
>>> woman.
>>>
>>> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
>>> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
>>> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
>>> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>>
>>> --
>> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>>
>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
I would love truly elegant documentation. However, I am neither a
Confluence expert nor a graphic designer. As you say, it needs a community.
Perhaps people who are good at graphic design could create frameworks
for the FAQ and Resources? Should each of them, long term, be Wiki pages
or pages in a D&I web site? However it is done, it cannot depend on
graphics. There are some readers who will only have access to whatever
text their browser can extract.
Curating the initial content is something that seems to me to need doing
and that I think I know how to do, so I started doing it.
On 5/13/2019 3:03 PM, Matt Sicker wrote:
> This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want
> non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice
> website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community!
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
>> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
>> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
>> relevant issues for Apache?
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
>> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
>> and fix errors.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
>> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
>> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>>
>> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
>> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
>> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
>> due to subconscious bias.
>>
>> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
>> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
>> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
>> discouraging.
>>
>> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
>> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>>
>> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
>> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
>> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
>> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
>> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
>> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
>> woman.
>>
>> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
>> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
>> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
>> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
>
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want
non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice
website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community!
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
> relevant issues for Apache?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
> and fix errors.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>
> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
> due to subconscious bias.
>
> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
> discouraging.
>
> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>
> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
> woman.
>
> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
> --
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
The "Open Source Diversity" site[1] that Shane mentioned elsethread led me
to the "Contributor Covenant" site[2] which also has a FAQ[3] which, in my
limited experience, seems pretty good and is "CC BY 4.0 License" [4]
Niall
[1] https://opensourcediversity.org/
[2] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/
<https://www.contributor-covenant.org/faq>
[3] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/faq
[4] https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 9:14 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
> relevant issues for Apache?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
> and fix errors.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>
> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
> due to subconscious bias.
>
> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
> discouraging.
>
> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>
> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
> woman.
>
> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
Answer N: the numbers show that our community is overwhelmingly male. This
implies that we are somehow, perhaps unintentionally, excluding half of the
planet. We would like to find out why and fix it. This doesn't mean that we
can fix the whole industry but we can make our corner of it a little more
welcoming.
On Mon, May 13, 2019, 16:14 Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
> relevant issues for Apache?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
> and fix errors.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>
> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
> due to subconscious bias.
>
> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
> discouraging.
>
> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>
> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
> woman.
>
> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
Most of the points in my draft were about inclusion, making sure
everyone feels welcome. This is directly about diversity as a benefit in
its own right.
On 5/13/2019 9:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles wrote:
> I alluded to this elsewhere, but I would welcome feedback on whether this
> perspective is relevant. It hinges on whether the ASF's mission is to
> provide software *that is a public good* in the technical economics sense
> (non-excludable non-rivalrous) or software *for the public good* (aka the
> benefit of the public). The ASL seems oriented towards the former, while
> the foundation has a lot more of the latter than I realized 5 years ago. If
> the latter carries weight, there's this...
>
> A: The mission of the ASF is to provide software for the public good. The
> best way to ensure something is for the public good is to include a diverse
> sample of the public in its development and direction. Those who are not
> represented in development of Apache projects are probably less well-served
> by those projects. At best, we just don't know. To assume otherwise is
> paternalistic [1]. So increased diversity and inclusion automatically
> advances the foundation's mission, whether or not you know or care about
> the race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors.
>
> Kenn
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism
>
>
> *From: *Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
> *Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:14 PM
> *To: * <di...@apache.org>
>
> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
>> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
>> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
>> relevant issues for Apache?
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
>> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
>> and fix errors.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
>> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
>> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>>
>> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
>> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
>> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
>> due to subconscious bias.
>>
>> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
>> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
>> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
>> discouraging.
>>
>> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
>> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>>
>> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
>> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
>> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
>> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
>> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
>> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
>> woman.
>>
>> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
>> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
>> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
>> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
Confluence and Jira are slow regardless of the distance between you and the
data center. They’re bloated. 😅
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 18:59, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What has seem to worked on some of the non-English background projects
> I’ve mentored:
> - Encourage to PPMC to ask people to communicate in English if they can
> - Encourage to PPMC to ask people to provide a translation along with
> their original email either by someone else or a machine translation (Note
> that google services like google translate are not generally available in
> China)
> - Encourage the PPMC to translate or ask others to translate any non
> English messages into English
>
> The turning point is generally when they realise that they can get a more
> diverse set of contributors by having enlist communication in English.
>
> From what I’ve seen this seems to mostly work, there does seem however to
> be a lot of traffic off list on instant messaging in these projects, but
> that’s not unique to podlings originating from China. It's where users
> general go to ask questions in slack or gitter or the like.
>
> The users situation is also usually resolved (in part) by having two web
> sites one in English and one in Chinese. This also brings up the issue of
> the great firewall and access speeds from within China. Infra are working
> with a couple of projects on this using CDNs so their site are fast and
> accessable.
>
> As an aside speed to other SF services (like Confluence and JIRA) can be
> slow when accessed outside the US or Europe, but that’s probably not our
> issue to fix.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
> --
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
What has seem to worked on some of the non-English background projects I’ve mentored:
- Encourage to PPMC to ask people to communicate in English if they can
- Encourage to PPMC to ask people to provide a translation along with their original email either by someone else or a machine translation (Note that google services like google translate are not generally available in China)
- Encourage the PPMC to translate or ask others to translate any non English messages into English
The turning point is generally when they realise that they can get a more diverse set of contributors by having enlist communication in English.
From what I’ve seen this seems to mostly work, there does seem however to be a lot of traffic off list on instant messaging in these projects, but that’s not unique to podlings originating from China. It's where users general go to ask questions in slack or gitter or the like.
The users situation is also usually resolved (in part) by having two web sites one in English and one in Chinese. This also brings up the issue of the great firewall and access speeds from within China. Infra are working with a couple of projects on this using CDNs so their site are fast and accessable.
As an aside speed to other SF services (like Confluence and JIRA) can be slow when accessed outside the US or Europe, but that’s probably not our issue to fix.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 14/05/2019 17:46, Alex Harui wrote:
> When I see a post in non-English on the lists of the projects I participate in, I shove it into Google Translate. It works well enough to give me an idea of what the post is about. If I thought it was important, I would copy the English translation as a reply to the post saying "Google Translate said you are saying: ". Sometimes, another person on the lists who is fluent in the original poster's language will offer a translation as well as discuss with the OP in that OP's language. And that's all good to me.
+1.
This is essentially what I recommend when I see projects asking about
communication in languages other than English.
Mark
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Re: Multi-lingual project communication & recommendations (was: [FAQ]
Proto-FAQ question 1)
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.INVALID>.
Hi Joan,
IMO, unless there will be a "MUST" or "SHOULD" and some request for action by leadership, it might be more inviting to simply describe the two approaches with some pros and cons and some data and opinions on why it worked and let other communities decide for themselves. Unless we know for a fact that all "big communities" will tend to benefit more from separate lists, I'm not sure we should predispose big communities towards separate lists.
My 2 cents,
-Alex
On 5/14/19, 1:08 PM, "Joan Touzet" <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
Both of these approaches are interesting.
Since this goes past what we want to do for just ourselves, I've renamed
the thread. I just want to remind everyone in this discussion that the
D&I group (in whatever official form it takes) can't set policy for the
ASF - we can only provide recommendations to be acted upon by leadership.
Even within that framework, I am a big fan of RFC 2119 terminology[1]
for our recommendations (that end up in front of the BoD/officers and
may eventually become policy, procedure, or general recommendations).
You'll recognize this as the "MUST," "SHOULD," "COULD," etc. approach to
standards and requirements.
I see the two options being presented (on-list, separate-list) both as
"COULD"s - I don't yet see a convincing argument for making either a
"SHOULD" over the other. But that doesn't mean we couldn't provide
guidance, such as:
"Big communities, or those with a substantial non-English membership
(such as our projects heavily active and originating in China like
CarbonData, Eagle, Griffin, HAWQ, Kylin, ROcketMQ, ServiceComb and
Skywalking) may opt for the Debian-like approach of a separate ML, where
critical discussion is diverted back to dev@ for English. Smaller
projects with less traffic on their dev@ lists, or who tend to use only
a single list for communication, may prefer to keep all threads, English
or not, on the same list."
Thoughts?
I'm finally excited about this initiative again. This discussion is
already bearing fruit that goes past the context of a FAQ and into what
could become part of the first preliminary report back to the Board.
-Joan "yay" Touzet
[1]: https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc2119&data=02%7C01%7Caharui%40adobe.com%7Cdc1f83c5db3244143ce408d6d8a7fb19%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636934613329838955&sdata=JJ%2FqRowSK%2B7YWdf9CZXiAtxNhSqYtclKSMebCVGJar0%3D&reserved=0
On 2019-05-14 1:14 p.m., Jose Miguel Parrella Romero wrote:
> In Debian, there are non-English mailing lists for user support, developer discussions, i18n/l10n and news (think press)
>
> The volume is rather small and threads that can potentially change the direction of the project are invariably in English (whether in the bug tracking system, mailing lists, IRC, etc.), but the infrastructure exists and at least for i18n/l10n and news I can say there's an operational dependency on it. Of course outside of Debian-hosted infrastructure, there are local Debian user groups, meetups, conferences, etc.
>
> I recently heard an anecdote from Chris Lamb (former Debian Project Leader) where he mentioned that after a non-English speaker was repeatedly using the word "abysmal" to describe the performance of a service (creating friction with the developers and operators) they chose what I would describe as a probing/educational communication style, where regardless of whether the performance of the service was underwhelming or not, the nuances of the concept were written back to the original poster to the point where either it was a personal attack (rare) or a different word emanated as alternative.
>
> PS: also sharing some resources from Debian's Anti-Harrassment team Wiki page [1]
>
> [1] https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.debian.org%2FAntiHarassment&data=02%7C01%7Caharui%40adobe.com%7Cdc1f83c5db3244143ce408d6d8a7fb19%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636934613329848952&sdata=oCyzofhBdkgB0G1vPwYvya7ErMDEiSuyG38ex2m3zWs%3D&reserved=0
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.INVALID>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:46 AM
> To: diversity@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
>
> IMO, we can come up with a way to support non-English official communication channels. We have to try to make it clear to as many people as possible that it is ok to write an email in your native language on dev@ and users@. We could decide that private@ is the air-traffic-controller channel and must be English. Hopefully the kinds of discussions on private@ are limited enough that people on that list can learn enough functional English to participate. Most are coders using English keywords in programming languages.
>
> When I see a post in non-English on the lists of the projects I participate in, I shove it into Google Translate. It works well enough to give me an idea of what the post is about. If I thought it was important, I would copy the English translation as a reply to the post saying "Google Translate said you are saying: ". Sometimes, another person on the lists who is fluent in the original poster's language will offer a translation as well as discuss with the OP in that OP's language. And that's all good to me.
>
> I do not think we want to have language-specific channels any more than we would tell some group they must use English when having a conversation in a public space. That's one analogy I use for the ASF: that we are basically working from a bench in the town square where everyone can listen in on our conversations and I can listen in on others. We should not start from the fear that some conversation that we cannot understand is going to have negative consequences. Some will, for sure, but it should be ok to ask for a short summary in English. We can make it a recommended or required practice for the PMC members to try to provide those short summaries, even if it is via Google Translate.
>
> Again, a restaurant analogy. If some tourists come into your restaurant, use their limited English to order food, then have a conversation in their native language while eating, that should be allowed, and the astute restaurant worker will still try to pick up on whether they are enjoying the food and the restaurant in general. IMO, Google Translate has worked well enough for me to pick up on non-English conversations on the lists and participate. I would not want to have to monitor other language specific lists. I would encourage everyone on our lists to use Google Translate to get a sense of the conversations in other languages. I will be super happy if my project's users@ lists are a mix of languages.
>
> My 2 cents,
> -Alex
>
> On 5/14/19, 9:19 AM, "Joan Touzet" <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> This is something that's been on my mind a lot recently.
>
> We can't come up with a way to support non-English official
> communication channels for the Foundation as Bertrand mentions, but if
> we don't allow non-official channels in other languages, as the saying
> goes, "the Internet will route around us" and just create them outside
> of the ASF.
>
> I, for one, would rather see those discussions happening on ASF lists if
> at all possible. Maybe we can't have a dev-chinese@project.a.o, but
> couldn't we at least support a users-chinese@project.a.o?
>
> I think it's equally important to consider the i18n and l10n of the
> software projects that we shepherd. This is something I want to ask the
> assembled minds in the board/officers at the face-to-face meeting this week.
>
> I know there are some woefully under-recognized solutions within the ASF
> (such as our Pootle instance, https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftranslate.apache.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Caharui%40adobe.com%7Cdc1f83c5db3244143ce408d6d8a7fb19%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636934613329848952&sdata=99hQRfqfyrWqqaAY81jUj9fY1xV2y83K5m95H2G2ktk%3D&reserved=0). Look how
> few projects even try to use it. This is tragic. And doing what we can
> to improve things here I feel does fall under D&I. It even meshes with
> the US non-profit mission of software for/in the public good, since the
> US does not have an official national language, and has a large
> percentage of citizens and residents who speak other languages.
>
> On the intake side, we should consider translation of the FAQ and other
> documents into a few languages, with reverse translations back to
> English to ensure nuance is not lost (especially for critical documents
> like the CoC, general project bylaws, and maybe some of "The Apache Way"
> stuff.) These documents can clearly be marked as "not official" so as to
> not overburden our thin legal resources to date.
>
> -Joan
>
> On 2019-05-14 12:03 p.m., Alex Harui wrote:
> > It has been interesting to me how important words are in these discussions. In this case, the word "fix". We may not be able to "fix" as in "eliminate" the requirement to communicate in English, but I believe we can and should encourage communities to choose their words more carefully so that "fluency" is not perceived as a requirement. I already do filter my choice of words to try to avoid word patterns that non-US citizens may not understand since all but one of the most active committers on my project live outside the US.
> >
> > We might come up with other social suggestions like allowing posts in other languages on users@ lists, allowing posts in other languages on dev@ but recommending translation of the original post to English and requiring posts in English on private@. That's sort of how Flex and Royale operate today without any official documentation of this approach.
> >
> > My observation is that restaurant workers in the US in popular tourist areas are generally trained to be patient with non-English-speaking customers and also choose their words carefully. Why shouldn't we all take that approach at Apache? Another observation is that airline pilots fly to the US from all over the world and communicate in English to flight controllers in the US (and other countries too, iIRC). I'm fairly certain the US-based flight controllers choose their words carefully. I do not think all of those pilots from other countries are fluent in English. They have learned enough functional English to communicate on how to navigate and land an airplane. Does/should software development at the ASF require an even larger English vocabulary than navigating air-space?
> >
> > My 2 cents,
> > -Alex
> >
> > On 5/14/19, 6:27 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > ...It's like democracy - while not perfect, it is (I would say) the least
> > > sucky way of ensuring fairness, openness and proper governance, as it is
> > > the most universal (and de facto standard) language we have..
> >
> > +1
> >
> > > I do not see the need for or lack of English skills as a thing *we* can fix...
> >
> > Same here, I was mentioning as one invariant that does affect who
> > joins our communities - or more precisely the way people contribute.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >
>
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>
>
>
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Re: Multi-lingual project communication & recommendations
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 11:57 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Sorry all. Wrong recipient....
No worries, we'd all love to join your dinner ;-)
-Bertrand
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Re: Multi-lingual project communication & recommendations
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Sorry all. Wrong recipient. I hate sending mails from phones.
Best,
Myrle
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:55 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Joan,
>
> Sam, Gris, and I were already planning to go for dinner. I would love to
> join us with your group, but that sort of thing can be unwieldy. Assume for
> now that I won’t be joining you. If we do end up meeting up this evening
> I’d love it, but it doesn’t seem practical right now. I will see you
> tomorrow at the latest.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:43 PM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> FYI, I misspoke here:
>>
>> On 2019-05-14 4:08 p.m., Joan Touzet wrote:
>> > Since this goes past what we want to do for just ourselves, I've
>> renamed
>> > the thread. I just want to remind everyone in this discussion that the
>> > D&I group (in whatever official form it takes) can't set policy for the
>> > ASF - we can only provide recommendations to be acted upon by
>> leadership.
>>
>> The answer as to what policy D&I could, should, must, or must not be
>> able to implement will come out of the action the Board takes shortly on
>> where the proposal lands.
>>
>> It is not a foregone conclusion that D&I "must not" set policy. But
>> choosing to ask the board for that power would be a separate action that
>> we would have to carefully consider.
>>
>> Thanks to the Members who corrected me off-list for giving me the chance
>> to correct myself publicly.
>>
>> -Joan "point of order" Touzet
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
Re: Multi-lingual project communication & recommendations
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hi Joan,
Sam, Gris, and I were already planning to go for dinner. I would love to
join us with your group, but that sort of thing can be unwieldy. Assume for
now that I won’t be joining you. If we do end up meeting up this evening
I’d love it, but it doesn’t seem practical right now. I will see you
tomorrow at the latest.
Best,
Myrle
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:43 PM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> FYI, I misspoke here:
>
> On 2019-05-14 4:08 p.m., Joan Touzet wrote:
> > Since this goes past what we want to do for just ourselves, I've renamed
> > the thread. I just want to remind everyone in this discussion that the
> > D&I group (in whatever official form it takes) can't set policy for the
> > ASF - we can only provide recommendations to be acted upon by leadership.
>
> The answer as to what policy D&I could, should, must, or must not be
> able to implement will come out of the action the Board takes shortly on
> where the proposal lands.
>
> It is not a foregone conclusion that D&I "must not" set policy. But
> choosing to ask the board for that power would be a separate action that
> we would have to carefully consider.
>
> Thanks to the Members who corrected me off-list for giving me the chance
> to correct myself publicly.
>
> -Joan "point of order" Touzet
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: Multi-lingual project communication & recommendations
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
FYI, I misspoke here:
On 2019-05-14 4:08 p.m., Joan Touzet wrote:
> Since this goes past what we want to do for just ourselves, I've renamed
> the thread. I just want to remind everyone in this discussion that the
> D&I group (in whatever official form it takes) can't set policy for the
> ASF - we can only provide recommendations to be acted upon by leadership.
The answer as to what policy D&I could, should, must, or must not be
able to implement will come out of the action the Board takes shortly on
where the proposal lands.
It is not a foregone conclusion that D&I "must not" set policy. But
choosing to ask the board for that power would be a separate action that
we would have to carefully consider.
Thanks to the Members who corrected me off-list for giving me the chance
to correct myself publicly.
-Joan "point of order" Touzet
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Re: Multi-lingual project communication & recommendations (was: [FAQ]
Proto-FAQ question 1)
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Both of these approaches are interesting.
Since this goes past what we want to do for just ourselves, I've renamed
the thread. I just want to remind everyone in this discussion that the
D&I group (in whatever official form it takes) can't set policy for the
ASF - we can only provide recommendations to be acted upon by leadership.
Even within that framework, I am a big fan of RFC 2119 terminology[1]
for our recommendations (that end up in front of the BoD/officers and
may eventually become policy, procedure, or general recommendations).
You'll recognize this as the "MUST," "SHOULD," "COULD," etc. approach to
standards and requirements.
I see the two options being presented (on-list, separate-list) both as
"COULD"s - I don't yet see a convincing argument for making either a
"SHOULD" over the other. But that doesn't mean we couldn't provide
guidance, such as:
"Big communities, or those with a substantial non-English membership
(such as our projects heavily active and originating in China like
CarbonData, Eagle, Griffin, HAWQ, Kylin, ROcketMQ, ServiceComb and
Skywalking) may opt for the Debian-like approach of a separate ML, where
critical discussion is diverted back to dev@ for English. Smaller
projects with less traffic on their dev@ lists, or who tend to use only
a single list for communication, may prefer to keep all threads, English
or not, on the same list."
Thoughts?
I'm finally excited about this initiative again. This discussion is
already bearing fruit that goes past the context of a FAQ and into what
could become part of the first preliminary report back to the Board.
-Joan "yay" Touzet
[1]: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119
On 2019-05-14 1:14 p.m., Jose Miguel Parrella Romero wrote:
> In Debian, there are non-English mailing lists for user support, developer discussions, i18n/l10n and news (think press)
>
> The volume is rather small and threads that can potentially change the direction of the project are invariably in English (whether in the bug tracking system, mailing lists, IRC, etc.), but the infrastructure exists and at least for i18n/l10n and news I can say there's an operational dependency on it. Of course outside of Debian-hosted infrastructure, there are local Debian user groups, meetups, conferences, etc.
>
> I recently heard an anecdote from Chris Lamb (former Debian Project Leader) where he mentioned that after a non-English speaker was repeatedly using the word "abysmal" to describe the performance of a service (creating friction with the developers and operators) they chose what I would describe as a probing/educational communication style, where regardless of whether the performance of the service was underwhelming or not, the nuances of the concept were written back to the original poster to the point where either it was a personal attack (rare) or a different word emanated as alternative.
>
> PS: also sharing some resources from Debian's Anti-Harrassment team Wiki page [1]
>
> [1] https://wiki.debian.org/AntiHarassment
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.INVALID>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:46 AM
> To: diversity@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
>
> IMO, we can come up with a way to support non-English official communication channels. We have to try to make it clear to as many people as possible that it is ok to write an email in your native language on dev@ and users@. We could decide that private@ is the air-traffic-controller channel and must be English. Hopefully the kinds of discussions on private@ are limited enough that people on that list can learn enough functional English to participate. Most are coders using English keywords in programming languages.
>
> When I see a post in non-English on the lists of the projects I participate in, I shove it into Google Translate. It works well enough to give me an idea of what the post is about. If I thought it was important, I would copy the English translation as a reply to the post saying "Google Translate said you are saying: ". Sometimes, another person on the lists who is fluent in the original poster's language will offer a translation as well as discuss with the OP in that OP's language. And that's all good to me.
>
> I do not think we want to have language-specific channels any more than we would tell some group they must use English when having a conversation in a public space. That's one analogy I use for the ASF: that we are basically working from a bench in the town square where everyone can listen in on our conversations and I can listen in on others. We should not start from the fear that some conversation that we cannot understand is going to have negative consequences. Some will, for sure, but it should be ok to ask for a short summary in English. We can make it a recommended or required practice for the PMC members to try to provide those short summaries, even if it is via Google Translate.
>
> Again, a restaurant analogy. If some tourists come into your restaurant, use their limited English to order food, then have a conversation in their native language while eating, that should be allowed, and the astute restaurant worker will still try to pick up on whether they are enjoying the food and the restaurant in general. IMO, Google Translate has worked well enough for me to pick up on non-English conversations on the lists and participate. I would not want to have to monitor other language specific lists. I would encourage everyone on our lists to use Google Translate to get a sense of the conversations in other languages. I will be super happy if my project's users@ lists are a mix of languages.
>
> My 2 cents,
> -Alex
>
> On 5/14/19, 9:19 AM, "Joan Touzet" <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> This is something that's been on my mind a lot recently.
>
> We can't come up with a way to support non-English official
> communication channels for the Foundation as Bertrand mentions, but if
> we don't allow non-official channels in other languages, as the saying
> goes, "the Internet will route around us" and just create them outside
> of the ASF.
>
> I, for one, would rather see those discussions happening on ASF lists if
> at all possible. Maybe we can't have a dev-chinese@project.a.o, but
> couldn't we at least support a users-chinese@project.a.o?
>
> I think it's equally important to consider the i18n and l10n of the
> software projects that we shepherd. This is something I want to ask the
> assembled minds in the board/officers at the face-to-face meeting this week.
>
> I know there are some woefully under-recognized solutions within the ASF
> (such as our Pootle instance, https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftranslate.apache.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cda3f0dd6e5d34047c12408d6d88bbd79%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636934492017566418&sdata=Y1N%2FdjHRKBSqSrGZns9QxLSJenscUnv4uUhvW4IS1H0%3D&reserved=0). Look how
> few projects even try to use it. This is tragic. And doing what we can
> to improve things here I feel does fall under D&I. It even meshes with
> the US non-profit mission of software for/in the public good, since the
> US does not have an official national language, and has a large
> percentage of citizens and residents who speak other languages.
>
> On the intake side, we should consider translation of the FAQ and other
> documents into a few languages, with reverse translations back to
> English to ensure nuance is not lost (especially for critical documents
> like the CoC, general project bylaws, and maybe some of "The Apache Way"
> stuff.) These documents can clearly be marked as "not official" so as to
> not overburden our thin legal resources to date.
>
> -Joan
>
> On 2019-05-14 12:03 p.m., Alex Harui wrote:
> > It has been interesting to me how important words are in these discussions. In this case, the word "fix". We may not be able to "fix" as in "eliminate" the requirement to communicate in English, but I believe we can and should encourage communities to choose their words more carefully so that "fluency" is not perceived as a requirement. I already do filter my choice of words to try to avoid word patterns that non-US citizens may not understand since all but one of the most active committers on my project live outside the US.
> >
> > We might come up with other social suggestions like allowing posts in other languages on users@ lists, allowing posts in other languages on dev@ but recommending translation of the original post to English and requiring posts in English on private@. That's sort of how Flex and Royale operate today without any official documentation of this approach.
> >
> > My observation is that restaurant workers in the US in popular tourist areas are generally trained to be patient with non-English-speaking customers and also choose their words carefully. Why shouldn't we all take that approach at Apache? Another observation is that airline pilots fly to the US from all over the world and communicate in English to flight controllers in the US (and other countries too, iIRC). I'm fairly certain the US-based flight controllers choose their words carefully. I do not think all of those pilots from other countries are fluent in English. They have learned enough functional English to communicate on how to navigate and land an airplane. Does/should software development at the ASF require an even larger English vocabulary than navigating air-space?
> >
> > My 2 cents,
> > -Alex
> >
> > On 5/14/19, 6:27 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > ...It's like democracy - while not perfect, it is (I would say) the least
> > > sucky way of ensuring fairness, openness and proper governance, as it is
> > > the most universal (and de facto standard) language we have..
> >
> > +1
> >
> > > I do not see the need for or lack of English skills as a thing *we* can fix...
> >
> > Same here, I was mentioning as one invariant that does affect who
> > joins our communities - or more precisely the way people contribute.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Jose Miguel Parrella Romero <bu...@outlook.com>.
In Debian, there are non-English mailing lists for user support, developer discussions, i18n/l10n and news (think press)
The volume is rather small and threads that can potentially change the direction of the project are invariably in English (whether in the bug tracking system, mailing lists, IRC, etc.), but the infrastructure exists and at least for i18n/l10n and news I can say there's an operational dependency on it. Of course outside of Debian-hosted infrastructure, there are local Debian user groups, meetups, conferences, etc.
I recently heard an anecdote from Chris Lamb (former Debian Project Leader) where he mentioned that after a non-English speaker was repeatedly using the word "abysmal" to describe the performance of a service (creating friction with the developers and operators) they chose what I would describe as a probing/educational communication style, where regardless of whether the performance of the service was underwhelming or not, the nuances of the concept were written back to the original poster to the point where either it was a personal attack (rare) or a different word emanated as alternative.
PS: also sharing some resources from Debian's Anti-Harrassment team Wiki page [1]
[1] https://wiki.debian.org/AntiHarassment
________________________________________
From: Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.INVALID>
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:46 AM
To: diversity@apache.org
Subject: Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
IMO, we can come up with a way to support non-English official communication channels. We have to try to make it clear to as many people as possible that it is ok to write an email in your native language on dev@ and users@. We could decide that private@ is the air-traffic-controller channel and must be English. Hopefully the kinds of discussions on private@ are limited enough that people on that list can learn enough functional English to participate. Most are coders using English keywords in programming languages.
When I see a post in non-English on the lists of the projects I participate in, I shove it into Google Translate. It works well enough to give me an idea of what the post is about. If I thought it was important, I would copy the English translation as a reply to the post saying "Google Translate said you are saying: ". Sometimes, another person on the lists who is fluent in the original poster's language will offer a translation as well as discuss with the OP in that OP's language. And that's all good to me.
I do not think we want to have language-specific channels any more than we would tell some group they must use English when having a conversation in a public space. That's one analogy I use for the ASF: that we are basically working from a bench in the town square where everyone can listen in on our conversations and I can listen in on others. We should not start from the fear that some conversation that we cannot understand is going to have negative consequences. Some will, for sure, but it should be ok to ask for a short summary in English. We can make it a recommended or required practice for the PMC members to try to provide those short summaries, even if it is via Google Translate.
Again, a restaurant analogy. If some tourists come into your restaurant, use their limited English to order food, then have a conversation in their native language while eating, that should be allowed, and the astute restaurant worker will still try to pick up on whether they are enjoying the food and the restaurant in general. IMO, Google Translate has worked well enough for me to pick up on non-English conversations on the lists and participate. I would not want to have to monitor other language specific lists. I would encourage everyone on our lists to use Google Translate to get a sense of the conversations in other languages. I will be super happy if my project's users@ lists are a mix of languages.
My 2 cents,
-Alex
On 5/14/19, 9:19 AM, "Joan Touzet" <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
This is something that's been on my mind a lot recently.
We can't come up with a way to support non-English official
communication channels for the Foundation as Bertrand mentions, but if
we don't allow non-official channels in other languages, as the saying
goes, "the Internet will route around us" and just create them outside
of the ASF.
I, for one, would rather see those discussions happening on ASF lists if
at all possible. Maybe we can't have a dev-chinese@project.a.o, but
couldn't we at least support a users-chinese@project.a.o?
I think it's equally important to consider the i18n and l10n of the
software projects that we shepherd. This is something I want to ask the
assembled minds in the board/officers at the face-to-face meeting this week.
I know there are some woefully under-recognized solutions within the ASF
(such as our Pootle instance, https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftranslate.apache.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cda3f0dd6e5d34047c12408d6d88bbd79%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636934492017566418&sdata=Y1N%2FdjHRKBSqSrGZns9QxLSJenscUnv4uUhvW4IS1H0%3D&reserved=0). Look how
few projects even try to use it. This is tragic. And doing what we can
to improve things here I feel does fall under D&I. It even meshes with
the US non-profit mission of software for/in the public good, since the
US does not have an official national language, and has a large
percentage of citizens and residents who speak other languages.
On the intake side, we should consider translation of the FAQ and other
documents into a few languages, with reverse translations back to
English to ensure nuance is not lost (especially for critical documents
like the CoC, general project bylaws, and maybe some of "The Apache Way"
stuff.) These documents can clearly be marked as "not official" so as to
not overburden our thin legal resources to date.
-Joan
On 2019-05-14 12:03 p.m., Alex Harui wrote:
> It has been interesting to me how important words are in these discussions. In this case, the word "fix". We may not be able to "fix" as in "eliminate" the requirement to communicate in English, but I believe we can and should encourage communities to choose their words more carefully so that "fluency" is not perceived as a requirement. I already do filter my choice of words to try to avoid word patterns that non-US citizens may not understand since all but one of the most active committers on my project live outside the US.
>
> We might come up with other social suggestions like allowing posts in other languages on users@ lists, allowing posts in other languages on dev@ but recommending translation of the original post to English and requiring posts in English on private@. That's sort of how Flex and Royale operate today without any official documentation of this approach.
>
> My observation is that restaurant workers in the US in popular tourist areas are generally trained to be patient with non-English-speaking customers and also choose their words carefully. Why shouldn't we all take that approach at Apache? Another observation is that airline pilots fly to the US from all over the world and communicate in English to flight controllers in the US (and other countries too, iIRC). I'm fairly certain the US-based flight controllers choose their words carefully. I do not think all of those pilots from other countries are fluent in English. They have learned enough functional English to communicate on how to navigate and land an airplane. Does/should software development at the ASF require an even larger English vocabulary than navigating air-space?
>
> My 2 cents,
> -Alex
>
> On 5/14/19, 6:27 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...It's like democracy - while not perfect, it is (I would say) the least
> > sucky way of ensuring fairness, openness and proper governance, as it is
> > the most universal (and de facto standard) language we have..
>
> +1
>
> > I do not see the need for or lack of English skills as a thing *we* can fix...
>
> Same here, I was mentioning as one invariant that does affect who
> joins our communities - or more precisely the way people contribute.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.INVALID>.
IMO, we can come up with a way to support non-English official communication channels. We have to try to make it clear to as many people as possible that it is ok to write an email in your native language on dev@ and users@. We could decide that private@ is the air-traffic-controller channel and must be English. Hopefully the kinds of discussions on private@ are limited enough that people on that list can learn enough functional English to participate. Most are coders using English keywords in programming languages.
When I see a post in non-English on the lists of the projects I participate in, I shove it into Google Translate. It works well enough to give me an idea of what the post is about. If I thought it was important, I would copy the English translation as a reply to the post saying "Google Translate said you are saying: ". Sometimes, another person on the lists who is fluent in the original poster's language will offer a translation as well as discuss with the OP in that OP's language. And that's all good to me.
I do not think we want to have language-specific channels any more than we would tell some group they must use English when having a conversation in a public space. That's one analogy I use for the ASF: that we are basically working from a bench in the town square where everyone can listen in on our conversations and I can listen in on others. We should not start from the fear that some conversation that we cannot understand is going to have negative consequences. Some will, for sure, but it should be ok to ask for a short summary in English. We can make it a recommended or required practice for the PMC members to try to provide those short summaries, even if it is via Google Translate.
Again, a restaurant analogy. If some tourists come into your restaurant, use their limited English to order food, then have a conversation in their native language while eating, that should be allowed, and the astute restaurant worker will still try to pick up on whether they are enjoying the food and the restaurant in general. IMO, Google Translate has worked well enough for me to pick up on non-English conversations on the lists and participate. I would not want to have to monitor other language specific lists. I would encourage everyone on our lists to use Google Translate to get a sense of the conversations in other languages. I will be super happy if my project's users@ lists are a mix of languages.
My 2 cents,
-Alex
On 5/14/19, 9:19 AM, "Joan Touzet" <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
This is something that's been on my mind a lot recently.
We can't come up with a way to support non-English official
communication channels for the Foundation as Bertrand mentions, but if
we don't allow non-official channels in other languages, as the saying
goes, "the Internet will route around us" and just create them outside
of the ASF.
I, for one, would rather see those discussions happening on ASF lists if
at all possible. Maybe we can't have a dev-chinese@project.a.o, but
couldn't we at least support a users-chinese@project.a.o?
I think it's equally important to consider the i18n and l10n of the
software projects that we shepherd. This is something I want to ask the
assembled minds in the board/officers at the face-to-face meeting this week.
I know there are some woefully under-recognized solutions within the ASF
(such as our Pootle instance, https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftranslate.apache.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Caharui%40adobe.com%7C4848722d05434837676f08d6d887ff3f%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636934475947707323&sdata=Oz05t0OaJez5iqUwjHo3tP%2BmB7K%2FSFgC81BbLHeKOYE%3D&reserved=0). Look how
few projects even try to use it. This is tragic. And doing what we can
to improve things here I feel does fall under D&I. It even meshes with
the US non-profit mission of software for/in the public good, since the
US does not have an official national language, and has a large
percentage of citizens and residents who speak other languages.
On the intake side, we should consider translation of the FAQ and other
documents into a few languages, with reverse translations back to
English to ensure nuance is not lost (especially for critical documents
like the CoC, general project bylaws, and maybe some of "The Apache Way"
stuff.) These documents can clearly be marked as "not official" so as to
not overburden our thin legal resources to date.
-Joan
On 2019-05-14 12:03 p.m., Alex Harui wrote:
> It has been interesting to me how important words are in these discussions. In this case, the word "fix". We may not be able to "fix" as in "eliminate" the requirement to communicate in English, but I believe we can and should encourage communities to choose their words more carefully so that "fluency" is not perceived as a requirement. I already do filter my choice of words to try to avoid word patterns that non-US citizens may not understand since all but one of the most active committers on my project live outside the US.
>
> We might come up with other social suggestions like allowing posts in other languages on users@ lists, allowing posts in other languages on dev@ but recommending translation of the original post to English and requiring posts in English on private@. That's sort of how Flex and Royale operate today without any official documentation of this approach.
>
> My observation is that restaurant workers in the US in popular tourist areas are generally trained to be patient with non-English-speaking customers and also choose their words carefully. Why shouldn't we all take that approach at Apache? Another observation is that airline pilots fly to the US from all over the world and communicate in English to flight controllers in the US (and other countries too, iIRC). I'm fairly certain the US-based flight controllers choose their words carefully. I do not think all of those pilots from other countries are fluent in English. They have learned enough functional English to communicate on how to navigate and land an airplane. Does/should software development at the ASF require an even larger English vocabulary than navigating air-space?
>
> My 2 cents,
> -Alex
>
> On 5/14/19, 6:27 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...It's like democracy - while not perfect, it is (I would say) the least
> > sucky way of ensuring fairness, openness and proper governance, as it is
> > the most universal (and de facto standard) language we have..
>
> +1
>
> > I do not see the need for or lack of English skills as a thing *we* can fix...
>
> Same here, I was mentioning as one invariant that does affect who
> joins our communities - or more precisely the way people contribute.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
This is something that's been on my mind a lot recently.
We can't come up with a way to support non-English official
communication channels for the Foundation as Bertrand mentions, but if
we don't allow non-official channels in other languages, as the saying
goes, "the Internet will route around us" and just create them outside
of the ASF.
I, for one, would rather see those discussions happening on ASF lists if
at all possible. Maybe we can't have a dev-chinese@project.a.o, but
couldn't we at least support a users-chinese@project.a.o?
I think it's equally important to consider the i18n and l10n of the
software projects that we shepherd. This is something I want to ask the
assembled minds in the board/officers at the face-to-face meeting this week.
I know there are some woefully under-recognized solutions within the ASF
(such as our Pootle instance, https://translate.apache.org/). Look how
few projects even try to use it. This is tragic. And doing what we can
to improve things here I feel does fall under D&I. It even meshes with
the US non-profit mission of software for/in the public good, since the
US does not have an official national language, and has a large
percentage of citizens and residents who speak other languages.
On the intake side, we should consider translation of the FAQ and other
documents into a few languages, with reverse translations back to
English to ensure nuance is not lost (especially for critical documents
like the CoC, general project bylaws, and maybe some of "The Apache Way"
stuff.) These documents can clearly be marked as "not official" so as to
not overburden our thin legal resources to date.
-Joan
On 2019-05-14 12:03 p.m., Alex Harui wrote:
> It has been interesting to me how important words are in these discussions. In this case, the word "fix". We may not be able to "fix" as in "eliminate" the requirement to communicate in English, but I believe we can and should encourage communities to choose their words more carefully so that "fluency" is not perceived as a requirement. I already do filter my choice of words to try to avoid word patterns that non-US citizens may not understand since all but one of the most active committers on my project live outside the US.
>
> We might come up with other social suggestions like allowing posts in other languages on users@ lists, allowing posts in other languages on dev@ but recommending translation of the original post to English and requiring posts in English on private@. That's sort of how Flex and Royale operate today without any official documentation of this approach.
>
> My observation is that restaurant workers in the US in popular tourist areas are generally trained to be patient with non-English-speaking customers and also choose their words carefully. Why shouldn't we all take that approach at Apache? Another observation is that airline pilots fly to the US from all over the world and communicate in English to flight controllers in the US (and other countries too, iIRC). I'm fairly certain the US-based flight controllers choose their words carefully. I do not think all of those pilots from other countries are fluent in English. They have learned enough functional English to communicate on how to navigate and land an airplane. Does/should software development at the ASF require an even larger English vocabulary than navigating air-space?
>
> My 2 cents,
> -Alex
>
> On 5/14/19, 6:27 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...It's like democracy - while not perfect, it is (I would say) the least
> > sucky way of ensuring fairness, openness and proper governance, as it is
> > the most universal (and de facto standard) language we have..
>
> +1
>
> > I do not see the need for or lack of English skills as a thing *we* can fix...
>
> Same here, I was mentioning as one invariant that does affect who
> joins our communities - or more precisely the way people contribute.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com.INVALID>.
It has been interesting to me how important words are in these discussions. In this case, the word "fix". We may not be able to "fix" as in "eliminate" the requirement to communicate in English, but I believe we can and should encourage communities to choose their words more carefully so that "fluency" is not perceived as a requirement. I already do filter my choice of words to try to avoid word patterns that non-US citizens may not understand since all but one of the most active committers on my project live outside the US.
We might come up with other social suggestions like allowing posts in other languages on users@ lists, allowing posts in other languages on dev@ but recommending translation of the original post to English and requiring posts in English on private@. That's sort of how Flex and Royale operate today without any official documentation of this approach.
My observation is that restaurant workers in the US in popular tourist areas are generally trained to be patient with non-English-speaking customers and also choose their words carefully. Why shouldn't we all take that approach at Apache? Another observation is that airline pilots fly to the US from all over the world and communicate in English to flight controllers in the US (and other countries too, iIRC). I'm fairly certain the US-based flight controllers choose their words carefully. I do not think all of those pilots from other countries are fluent in English. They have learned enough functional English to communicate on how to navigate and land an airplane. Does/should software development at the ASF require an even larger English vocabulary than navigating air-space?
My 2 cents,
-Alex
On 5/14/19, 6:27 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...It's like democracy - while not perfect, it is (I would say) the least
> sucky way of ensuring fairness, openness and proper governance, as it is
> the most universal (and de facto standard) language we have..
+1
> I do not see the need for or lack of English skills as a thing *we* can fix...
Same here, I was mentioning as one invariant that does affect who
joins our communities - or more precisely the way people contribute.
-Bertrand
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:09 PM Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...It's like democracy - while not perfect, it is (I would say) the least
> sucky way of ensuring fairness, openness and proper governance, as it is
> the most universal (and de facto standard) language we have..
+1
> I do not see the need for or lack of English skills as a thing *we* can fix...
Same here, I was mentioning as one invariant that does affect who
joins our communities - or more precisely the way people contribute.
-Bertrand
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 14/05/2019 08.59, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 2:49 PM Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>> ...we’ve asked them to speak English on the mailing lists, so we could ask them what that experience
>> was like and if anyone felt excluded...
>
> I'm sure the requirement to use English does turn some people away.
>
> If that's not your native language it's easy to be ashamed of your
> writing and avoid communicating on our channels.
>
> Until now we've always (or mostly) said that we can't have non-english
> channels as it is hard or impossible for the ASF to have oversight on
> those - I think that's still valid today.
It's like democracy - while not perfect, it is (I would say) the least
sucky way of ensuring fairness, openness and proper governance, as it is
the most universal (and de facto standard) language we have. I do not
see the need for or lack of English skills as a thing *we* can fix.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 2:49 PM Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> ...we’ve asked them to speak English on the mailing lists, so we could ask them what that experience
> was like and if anyone felt excluded...
I'm sure the requirement to use English does turn some people away.
If that's not your native language it's easy to be ashamed of your
writing and avoid communicating on our channels.
Until now we've always (or mostly) said that we can't have non-english
channels as it is hard or impossible for the ASF to have oversight on
those - I think that's still valid today.
-Bertrand
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> Active contributors to Apache software have to be fluent, reading and writing, in written English.
Over the last couple of years we had a number of projects (about a dozen) donated from China and we’ve asked them to speak English on the mailing lists, so we could ask them what that experience was like and if anyone felt excluded, I assume that some people felt that they had been. While each project varies, it seems that a lot more of the conversation in these project happen in GitHub or instant messaging rather than on the mailing lists, which has caused some issues.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
From this point of view, we have a really strong exclusion that is more
likely to be relevant to software use than e.g. gender.
Active contributors to Apache software have to be fluent, reading and
writing, in written English.
On 5/13/2019 9:41 PM, Kenneth Knowles wrote:
> I alluded to this elsewhere, but I would welcome feedback on whether this
> perspective is relevant. It hinges on whether the ASF's mission is to
> provide software *that is a public good* in the technical economics sense
> (non-excludable non-rivalrous) or software *for the public good* (aka the
> benefit of the public). The ASL seems oriented towards the former, while
> the foundation has a lot more of the latter than I realized 5 years ago. If
> the latter carries weight, there's this...
>
> A: The mission of the ASF is to provide software for the public good. The
> best way to ensure something is for the public good is to include a diverse
> sample of the public in its development and direction. Those who are not
> represented in development of Apache projects are probably less well-served
> by those projects. At best, we just don't know. To assume otherwise is
> paternalistic [1]. So increased diversity and inclusion automatically
> advances the foundation's mission, whether or not you know or care about
> the race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors.
>
> Kenn
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism
>
>
> *From: *Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
> *Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:14 PM
> *To: * <di...@apache.org>
>
> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
>> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
>> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
>> relevant issues for Apache?
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
>> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
>> and fix errors.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
>> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
>> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>>
>> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
>> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
>> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
>> due to subconscious bias.
>>
>> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
>> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
>> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
>> discouraging.
>>
>> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
>> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>>
>> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
>> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
>> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
>> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
>> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
>> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
>> woman.
>>
>> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
>> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
>> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
>> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Kenneth Knowles <ke...@apache.org>.
I alluded to this elsewhere, but I would welcome feedback on whether this
perspective is relevant. It hinges on whether the ASF's mission is to
provide software *that is a public good* in the technical economics sense
(non-excludable non-rivalrous) or software *for the public good* (aka the
benefit of the public). The ASL seems oriented towards the former, while
the foundation has a lot more of the latter than I realized 5 years ago. If
the latter carries weight, there's this...
A: The mission of the ASF is to provide software for the public good. The
best way to ensure something is for the public good is to include a diverse
sample of the public in its development and direction. Those who are not
represented in development of Apache projects are probably less well-served
by those projects. At best, we just don't know. To assume otherwise is
paternalistic [1]. So increased diversity and inclusion automatically
advances the foundation's mission, whether or not you know or care about
the race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
characteristics of other contributors.
Kenn
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism
*From: *Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>
*Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:14 PM
*To: * <di...@apache.org>
The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
> relevant issues for Apache?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Here are some elements that I think should be covered in the answer. At
> this point, I am going for the big picture. Please suggest improvements
> and fix errors.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. Subconscious bias: You know the name the contributor uses. In
> addition, you may know their time zone and, from how quotes are
> introduced, the language in which they do most of their e-mail interaction.
>
> Research indicates that merely changing the name on a resume can affect
> the probability of a call back. Although the results could in theory be
> explained by deliberate racism and sexism, they seem more likely to be
> due to subconscious bias.
>
> 2. It is not all e-mail: Apache contributors meet at open source
> conferences, specialty technical conferences, and local gatherings. Not
> being able to participate without fearing discrimination would itself be
> discouraging.
>
> 3. Unintentional insult through stereotypes: This is a bigger risk in
> e-mail than in face-to-face interactions.
>
> I had someone on a mailing list use "try to explain X to someone's
> aunt", where X was a difficult technical point, as an example of
> futility. It invoked a stereotype of older women as lacking computer
> science comprehension. As it happens, I already had two adult nephews
> when I got my PhD in computer science. The writer would probably not
> have said what they did in a live conversation including a grey-haired
> woman.
>
> 4. Misuse of pronouns: If you know someone's preferred pronouns you know
> something about their gender, and subconscious gender discrimination
> becomes possible. If you don't, you may be making them cringe every time
> you refer to them in an e-mail.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Patricia Shanahan wrote on 5/13/19 4:13 PM:
> The first and most important question is something along the lines of:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the
> race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal
> characteristics of other contributors. Why are diversity and inclusion
> relevant issues for Apache?
There are a lot of great additions on this thread, but we're still
missing a fundamental point about "The Apache Way" - I just don't know
how to best express it to help *answer* the question.
Community over code.
A long-held maxim at the ASF, we recently wrote it down and put it
prominently on the website (Well, somewhat prominently in this essay):
https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/index.html
So the literal reply to "I only care about the code" is "That's great
for you, but Apache values the communities - made up of people - more
than the code." If we look at the Incubator, the primary criteria for
being ready to graduate is if the *community* is self governing. Sure,
they have to have released some code [1], but the real Incubator
questions are about the people working on a podling, not the code.
I feel like this is intuitively obvious to many long-time Apache
community members, but is still difficult to explain in terms of how
that value structure of people first applies in the distributed and
online world of all the code we produce.
Thanks in advance to Patricia and others who will be editing all these
great answers into a FAQ! 8-)
--
- Shane
Director & Member
The Apache Software Foundation
[1] The Incubator also does a bunch of legal bits, which are equally
important... mostly because having cleanly licensed code means that more
people can use - and might contribute to - our community.
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