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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org> on 2003/06/12 11:07:23 UTC
Going going gone!
Hi,
For those who don't know yet I was kicked out of Avalon on Sunday. I have not
been allowed to be a member of the group for a long time but now it is
official. That basically means I have no commit access here anymore and wont
be able to participate any longer.
I spent just under four years attempting to grow Avalon from the small 2 man
project with extremely alpha codebase to something bigger. Almost all of the
active committers I nominated and helped get started where needed and tried
to make this a place where people could freely debate technical issues. We
made some mistakes and had some successes but I learnt a lot along the way. I
made some friends, lost some friends and made some enemies it seems. Overall
it has mostly been good.
For those who are concerned that support for Phoenix will disappear dont
worry. At this stage we are planning on continuing development elsewhere so
you will not be left high and dry. More details will follow when things are
more concrete.
So long and thanks for all the fish.
Cheers,
Peter Donald
PS: If you want to contact me do it on my peter@realityforge.org address as it
looks like my Apache account will be yoinked soon. Also if you tried to
contact me in last few days and I haven't replied I may have lost the mail in
a transfer to an IMAP account so resend.
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>
> For those who don't know yet I was kicked out of Avalon on Sunday. I have not
> been allowed to be a member of the group for a long time but now it is
> official. That basically means I have no commit access here anymore and wont
> be able to participate any longer.
of those, one is true. the others are blatantly false. you no longer
have commit access. that does not prevent you from contributing; only
your own choice does that. many people manage to contribute without
having commit access. likewise, any 'non-membership' is solely your
doing, peter. you're the one who publicly stated that you were not
willing to be part of the team. the pmc tried for months to get you
to be a team player; it was your refusal to do so that made you a
non-member, not something imposed on you from without.
it would not surprise me if the several months of half-truths and outright
untruths coming from you, like yours above, contributed to this.
--
#ken P-(}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 12/06/2003 14:09 Steven Noels wrote:
> On 12/06/2003 11:33 Ulrich Mayring wrote:
>
>> So Phoenix will go out of Avalon, but retain the Apache license? Or
>> will it get a new license? Or will there be a fork and users have to
>> decide which branch to use?
>
>
> If development on Phoenix continues outside Apache CVS (which is
> perfectly legal), it will be under a different name.
Putting some dots on the i:
* permission to use Avalon Phoenix as a 'brand name' will need to be
granted by the Avalon PMC
* the license won't be Apache's anymore since this requires its codebase
to be residing in ASF CVS, and the Avalon PMC having oversight over the
codebase
* in case of a fork, I'm pretty sure package names for Phoenix'
implementation classes will need to renamed, but unless you use
Phoenix-specific classes or methods in your apps, that shouldn't have
too much effects
I hope this helps and can trigger some discussion.
Kind regards,
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 12/06/2003 11:33 Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> So Phoenix will go out of Avalon, but retain the Apache license? Or will
> it get a new license? Or will there be a fork and users have to decide
> which branch to use?
If development on Phoenix continues outside Apache CVS (which is
perfectly legal), it will be under a different name.
Whether this fork will happen or not will depend on Peter IIUC.
Whether the current Phoenix code base will be 'supported' and grown
further inside Avalon will depend on the discretion of the Avalon community.
At least, that's my take on it, and I can hardly consider myself a
member of the Avalon community, just an interested (and respectful)
watcher, and someone who has a moderate business interest in a continued
development of Phoenix over here for our xReporter project.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 12/06/2003 12:43 Stephen McConnell wrote:
> I'm just noting that it could be helpful to request a PMC point-of-view
> as an input to that discussion.
And I just wanted to note that, from being subscribed to avalon-dev
only, one might get the feeling some stuff is silently handled on that
PMC list. Posting the outcome of a discussion without the process to get
there is confusing in a world where people only have email as a means to
communicate.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 12/06/2003 12:35 Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
>> It may be helpful to post an email to the PMC requesting
>> clarification on the above questions. The PMC email address is
>> pmc@avalon.apache.org.
>
>
> Why can't this be asked & discussed on the -dev list?
There is nothing stopping a discussion here.
I'm just noting that it could be helpful to request a PMC point-of-view
as an input to that discussion.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
Sent via James running under Merlin as an NT service.
http://avalon.apache.org/sandbox/merlin
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 12/06/2003 12:35 Stephen McConnell wrote:
> It may be helpful to post an email to the PMC requesting clarification
> on the above questions. The PMC email address is pmc@avalon.apache.org.
Why can't this be asked & discussed on the -dev list?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> Peter Donald wrote:
>
>>
>> For those who are concerned that support for Phoenix will disappear
>> dont worry. At this stage we are planning on continuing development
>> elsewhere so you will not be left high and dry. More details will
>> follow when things are more concrete.
>
>
> So Phoenix will go out of Avalon, but retain the Apache license? Or
> will it get a new license? Or will there be a fork and users have to
> decide which branch to use?
Ulrich:
It may be helpful to post an email to the PMC requesting clarification
on the above questions. The PMC email address is pmc@avalon.apache.org.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
Sent via James running under Merlin as an NT service.
http://avalon.apache.org/sandbox/merlin
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> Peter Donald wrote:
>
>>
>> For those who are concerned that support for Phoenix will disappear
>> dont worry. At this stage we are planning on continuing development
>> elsewhere so you will not be left high and dry. More details will
>> follow when things are more concrete.
>
>
> So Phoenix will go out of Avalon, but retain the Apache license? Or will
> it get a new license? Or will there be a fork and users have to decide
> which branch to use?
Whatever Peter does will be a fork. He cannot call it Phoenix. He must
always proclaim that it is based on Apache Avalon Phoenix--Even if over
time the source code changes completely. That is the price of the fork.
Unfortunately we cannot prevent him from forking.
We can assure you that the Avalon team will continue to support Phoenix
for the long term. If there is a feature that you want in there, please
tell us. We will be more than happy to get that in there.
> Sad to see you go,
We all are--especially under these circumstances.
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>
> For those who are concerned that support for Phoenix will disappear dont
> worry. At this stage we are planning on continuing development elsewhere so
> you will not be left high and dry. More details will follow when things are
> more concrete.
So Phoenix will go out of Avalon, but retain the Apache license? Or will
it get a new license? Or will there be a fork and users have to decide
which branch to use?
Sad to see you go,
Ulrich
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Anton Tagunov wrote:
> A very sad moment.
>
> Have there been any real disagreements except
> the statement that Peter is not part of the team?
>
> The 4 positive answers should have been more important
> then some silly words shouldn't they?
Of course there were. Such a heavy action is never
taken lightly or flippantly. It was the result of a
number of issues that cumulated to the point where
we had to take some sort of action. Our first choice
was to try to get him to work with the team. After
several well respected individuals failed to do that,
there was only one alternative left.
It is an unfortunate thing, but Peter D has been very
difficult to pin down on what exactly he means by something.
When you repeat back to him what you heard, he responds
evasively claiming that not only do you not get it, but
you are out to get him. His yes proved not to mean what
we thought it should mean.
Without going into the serious details and drudging up
a bunch of negative feelings, I can say that with a
demonstrated consistency Peter has agrivated many sore
disagreements as opposed to trying to smooth things over.
He has also demonstrated a much different viewpoint of
cooperative development than the Apache Software Foundation
has.
Many hours and many emails have been spent agonizing over
what was best for Avalon, and our personal feelings for
Peter. You will never hear any of us say that Peter didn't
contribute anything positive to this project. Such a claim
simply isn't true. We have respect for him as an individual
developer. The net contribution that Peter has provided to
Avalon in the past year (more specifically the last nine
months) has proven decidedly negative to the point that
a few developers decided to leave rather than endure the
abuse.
>
> ("silly" as in "silly bullet")
>
> Very upsetting.
Agreed.
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> No one removed Peter. Peter has every ability to contribute as do 90%+ of
> the people on this list. The only thing that Peter lost was his CVS commit
> access.
>
> If Peter chooses to leave, that is his choice. If he chooses to
> participate, that is also his choice.
Technically true, but not socially :)
Ulrich
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RE: Going going gone!
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> So I guess the hope is that by removing the person
No one removed Peter. Peter has every ability to contribute as do 90%+ of
the people on this list. The only thing that Peter lost was his CVS commit
access.
If Peter chooses to leave, that is his choice. If he chooses to
participate, that is also his choice.
--- Noel
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Anton Tagunov wrote:
> A very sad moment.
>
> Have there been any real disagreements except
> the statement that Peter is not part of the team?
Well, there have been all kinds of problems, that's for sure. And Peter
was mostly in the middle of it (whether of his fault or whether he was
dragged into it, I can't say). So I guess the hope is that by removing
the person, who mostly seems to be associated with the problems, that
the problems will also disappear.
Whether that was the right call is obviously unknown today :)
Ulrich
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Anton Tagunov <at...@mail.cnt.ru>.
A very sad moment.
Have there been any real disagreements except
the statement that Peter is not part of the team?
The 4 positive answers should have been more important
then some silly words shouldn't they?
("silly" as in "silly bullet")
Very upsetting.
- Anton
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Peter Blakeley <de...@coolcat.com.au>.
-1 I would vote for you to stay but this is not a votable issue and I am
not a committer, I would like to thank you for you for the quality
ideas, arguments and software you have produced for Apache over the last
few years, your insight will be sorely missed.
regards pb...
> So long and thanks for all the fish.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter Donald
>
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by pe...@realityforge.org.
From: "Federico Barbieri" <fe...@betaversion.org>
> This is actually a very important point. The apache way of doing open
> source is based on communities and _NOT_ on individuals. That is why me
> leaving the project I originally started a few years ago didn't stop
> avalon development. For the very same reason Phoenix development will
> continue here, where the comminity is.
> The reason this is the "Apache way" is very simple: communities are more
> reliable than individuals. Always.
You are completely right - development continues where the community is -
communities are more reliable than individuals.
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Federico Barbieri <fe...@betaversion.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
>> For those who are concerned that support for Phoenix will disappear
>> dont worry. At this stage we are planning on continuing development
>> elsewhere so you will not be left high and dry. More details will
>> follow when things are more concrete.
>
>
>
> Phoenix will continue to be supported by Avalon. Any work that Peter
> does outside of Avalon is a Fork, and not the official Phoenix release.
> He cannot call whatever his server is "Phoenix", and he must claim for
> ever more that his container is based on "Avalon Phoenix".
>
> You will not be left high and dry, but not because of Peter's extra
> curricular activities. It is because we are committed to our users.
> It is our users (of which all the developers are also users) that
> has brought Avalon to the place where it is now. We would be stupid
> to leave our users without any type of support.
>
> We had hoped that Peter would not have required us to mention this in
> public, because it is not our intention to hurt him any more than has
> already been done. Unfortunately, we owe it to our users and our
> developers to provide the official response so there is no confusion
> about this matter.
>
This is actually a very important point. The apache way of doing open
source is based on communities and _NOT_ on individuals. That is why me
leaving the project I originally started a few years ago didn't stop
avalon development. For the very same reason Phoenix development will
continue here, where the comminity is.
The reason this is the "Apache way" is very simple: communities are more
reliable than individuals. Always.
fede
>
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>
>
--
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research,
would it?
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Re: Going going gone!
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
I am responding with the official side of the Avalon team.
Peter Donald wrote:
> Hi,
>
> For those who don't know yet I was kicked out of Avalon on Sunday. I have not
> been allowed to be a member of the group for a long time but now it is
> official. That basically means I have no commit access here anymore and wont
> be able to participate any longer.
Peter's commit privileges were removed because of prolonged antagonism
with the Avalon community. We have had over 1400 emails in discussion
of this choice, and we still have mixed feelings. We like Peter D's
ability to code and design software, but his lack of cooperation was
actually killing the project. I am not going to belabor this discussion
on this list, so what you see in this mail should be sufficient.
> I spent just under four years attempting to grow Avalon from the small 2 man
> project with extremely alpha codebase to something bigger. Almost all of the
> active committers I nominated and helped get started where needed and tried
> to make this a place where people could freely debate technical issues. We
> made some mistakes and had some successes but I learnt a lot along the way. I
> made some friends, lost some friends and made some enemies it seems. Overall
> it has mostly been good.
Peter is not the only one who spent four years or more trying to grow
Avalon. We have all learned alot over the years, some things we would
change, and others would remain the same. It is not Peter's influence
alone that brought Avalon to the point where it is now. We are deeply
indebted to him for the contributions he did bring to the community.
We are saddened however that in the past year his overall net
contribution was a negative one--to the point of chasing away
developers.
> For those who are concerned that support for Phoenix will disappear dont
> worry. At this stage we are planning on continuing development elsewhere so
> you will not be left high and dry. More details will follow when things are
> more concrete.
Phoenix will continue to be supported by Avalon. Any work that Peter
does outside of Avalon is a Fork, and not the official Phoenix release.
He cannot call whatever his server is "Phoenix", and he must claim for
ever more that his container is based on "Avalon Phoenix".
You will not be left high and dry, but not because of Peter's extra
curricular activities. It is because we are committed to our users.
It is our users (of which all the developers are also users) that
has brought Avalon to the place where it is now. We would be stupid
to leave our users without any type of support.
We had hoped that Peter would not have required us to mention this in
public, because it is not our intention to hurt him any more than has
already been done. Unfortunately, we owe it to our users and our
developers to provide the official response so there is no confusion
about this matter.
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