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Posted to dev@qpid.apache.org by Kim van der Riet <ki...@redhat.com> on 2009/06/09 19:23:06 UTC
Persisence FAQ for Java
I recently added a section in the FAQ
http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/FAQ for persistence. I
have put the C++ sections in place, but left placeholders for the Java.
It would complete the FAQ if someone with Java store knowledge can fill
out the missing sections and, if necessary add new ones.
The following sections need Java paragraphs:
How do I build the persistence module from subversion checkouts?
How do I use the persistence store module?
How do I configure the store?
-K
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Re: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by Martin Ritchie <ri...@apache.org>.
2009/6/11 Steve Huston <sh...@riverace.com>:
> Hi Martin,
>
>> Really we should just be sorting out an ASL store. The Java Broker's
>> Derby store is good but IIRC still has a couple of bugs that could
> do
>> with addressing.
>>
>> I've got some time to do some refactoring based on the designs on
>> Message Storage that are on the wiki so hopefully things will
> improve
>> in this area soon.
>
> Ok - I'm interested in your efforts here.
The initial outline of the areas I'm looking at are here:
http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/Java+Broker+Design+-+High+Level+Overview+of+Refactoring
Which follows on from some earlier work done by Aidan and others here :
http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/Java+Broker+Modularisation
I'm hoping to put some more detail around what I was thinking of doing
up over the next week.
The main goal is to make the Java broker more modular and more testable.
Will post details when I get the details online.
Martin
>> Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
>> persistent store?
>
> I have funding from Microsoft to do a persistence store for C++ on
> Windows. I'm not 100% certain of the licensing, but I'll check.
>
> -Steve
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by Martin Ritchie <ri...@apache.org>.
2009/6/12 John O'Hara <jo...@gmail.com>:
> Steve, Martin,
>
> It would be great to get fully competent ASL licensed components throughout
> -- our out of box experience is lacking becuase of the "some assembly
> required" aspects of getting a production ready persistent broker set up.
>
> For a DB implementation for C++ that is ASL compatible, I think SQLite
> (public domain) is probably the only option.
> It's performance won't be stellar, but it could be very good and its
> documented robustness characteristics seem good too.
>
> Properly abstracted, it would also allow the core of a pluggable SQL store
> with SQLite as the default.....
>
> Cheers
> John
The Java Broker does currently have a JDBC based store that uses Derby
as the example implementation which works out of the box. IIRC you
only need provide a different JDBC driver class if you want to change
the actual DB used. That is of course if the new DB likes the SQL
format.
The only downside of it is that I know it hasn't had as much testing
as the GPL'd BerkeleyDB Store. It is also severely lacking in
documentation. Hopefully I can remedy some of that when looking at the
store interfaces.
Having a C++ persistent store would be fantastic, especially if it was
cross platform. The current testing performed by ant test (and all its
profile options) ignore any persistent testing. From a Java testing
pov if we could write tests that worked with persistence and could be
run against both C++ and Java brokers then that would do a lot for
improving the robustness of our product.
Martin
> At 15:39 11/06/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> > Really we should just be sorting out an ASL store. The Java Broker's
>> > Derby store is good but IIRC still has a couple of bugs that could
>> do
>> > with addressing.
>> >
>> > I've got some time to do some refactoring based on the designs on
>> > Message Storage that are on the wiki so hopefully things will
>> improve
>> > in this area soon.
>>
>> Ok - I'm interested in your efforts here.
>>
>> > Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
>> > persistent store?
>>
>> I have funding from Microsoft to do a persistence store for C++ on
>> Windows. I'm not 100% certain of the licensing, but I'll check.
>>
>> -Steve
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
>> Project: http://qpid.apache.org
>> Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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RE: Persistence FAQ for Java
Posted by David Ingham <Da...@microsoft.com>.
That makes sense Robert. We're planning the Windows persistence work in two phases, initially SQL Server for everything and then add in the CLFS piece for the message log for systems that support it. Hopefully the SQL layer piece should be portable enough to make a SQLLite mapping fairly straight-forward.
Dave.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Greig [mailto:robert.j.greig@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:25 PM
To: dev@qpid.apache.org
Subject: Re: Persistence FAQ for Java
2009/6/12 Andrew Stitcher <as...@redhat.com>:
> Looking at the docs CLFS seems to be supported only since Windows 2003
> which I think would exclude the many XP systems out there, so that might
> not be so good.
Yes, this would be something of an issue for developer desktops.
Obviously no-one is going to use XP for a production deployment, but
many corporate developers have to use XP on the desktop and although
virtual w2k3 or later environments may be available that is often not
terribly convenient.
I think a SQLLite instance (which would just need to be functional
rather than performant) would be a good idea, with CLFS available for
development on Vista or Windows 7 and all production use.
It will be very interesting to compare the performance of the Windows
broker with CLFS and Red Hat with its AIO implementation!
RG
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Re: Persistence FAQ for Java
Posted by Robert Greig <ro...@gmail.com>.
2009/6/12 Andrew Stitcher <as...@redhat.com>:
> Looking at the docs CLFS seems to be supported only since Windows 2003
> which I think would exclude the many XP systems out there, so that might
> not be so good.
Yes, this would be something of an issue for developer desktops.
Obviously no-one is going to use XP for a production deployment, but
many corporate developers have to use XP on the desktop and although
virtual w2k3 or later environments may be available that is often not
terribly convenient.
I think a SQLLite instance (which would just need to be functional
rather than performant) would be a good idea, with CLFS available for
development on Vista or Windows 7 and all production use.
It will be very interesting to compare the performance of the Windows
broker with CLFS and Red Hat with its AIO implementation!
RG
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RE: Persistence FAQ for Java
Posted by Andrew Stitcher <as...@redhat.com>.
On Fri, 2009-06-12 at 19:59 +0100, John R O'Hara wrote:
> Hi Dave
>
> CLFS is neat and probably blisteringly fast on Windows.
Looking at the docs CLFS seems to be supported only since Windows 2003
which I think would exclude the many XP systems out there, so that might
not be so good.
>
> I'm not aware of the current design of the C++ Qpid storage subsystem and how much smarts it requires (in particular does it need/supply indices for selectors on persistent messages queued to disk?).
> If its just a linear log then using CLFS would be neat in the Windows build; but something else should be swapped in if it's not there and being built somewhere else.
To my (somewhat limited) understanding there are 2 parts of the c++ qpid
storage subsystem (Kim would be able to fill in more details):
1. Journal files per queue, (Effectively a linear log)
2. Persistent wiring.
Presently the bulk of the code is in 1. which is a self contained layer
using the Linux asynchronous disk io (aio_) calls to efficiently drive
disks. I think this code has no external dependencies besides qpid
itself. This is the truly performance critical part of the store.
The second part is much less code, but it uses the sleepy cat bdb code
as a backing store.
It would certainly be possible to eliminate the bdb dependency entirely,
it's just a SMOP.
>
> That something else must have these two characteristics:
> 1) Be ASL compatible so it can ship with the source distro and users have a simple out-of-box experience
> 2) Be very reliable
>
> SQLlite is one of the few things that ticks both boxes on C/C++. Its TX handling looks suitably paranoid, and a simple message table with appended inserts could serve as a functional log solution.
I agree that Sqlite would be a good match for a db backend.
Also note, it's widely available on many different platforms (pure ANSI
C); the code is small (in the 100k-300k region); it's pretty performant;
it would supports external tools managing the store given it supports a
pretty complete SQL (despite the 'lite')
>
> So I suggest that the storage subsystem defaults to SQLlite by default and picks up any available "better" option during the build process - which would be CLFS on Windows, since its part of the OS and BDB/TokyoCabinet/QDBM/SQLserver/whatever where available.
I think that the problem here is that there will be limited desire from
the implementors to spend the effort to provide a storage layer that
isn't adequately efficient on their platform just for the sake of a
portability.
SoC project anyone (I guess that'd be next year!)
Andrew
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RE: Persistence FAQ for Java
Posted by John R O'Hara <jo...@jpmorgan.com>.
Hi Dave
CLFS is neat and probably blisteringly fast on Windows.
I'm not aware of the current design of the C++ Qpid storage subsystem and how much smarts it requires (in particular does it need/supply indices for selectors on persistent messages queued to disk?).
If its just a linear log then using CLFS would be neat in the Windows build; but something else should be swapped in if it's not there and being built somewhere else.
That something else must have these two characteristics:
1) Be ASL compatible so it can ship with the source distro and users have a simple out-of-box experience
2) Be very reliable
SQLlite is one of the few things that ticks both boxes on C/C++. Its TX handling looks suitably paranoid, and a simple message table with appended inserts could serve as a functional log solution.
So I suggest that the storage subsystem defaults to SQLlite by default and picks up any available "better" option during the build process - which would be CLFS on Windows, since its part of the OS and BDB/TokyoCabinet/QDBM/SQLserver/whatever where available.
Obviously I'm not looked at this code (shame on me), my desire is only for an easy build of pure ASF distro that works reliably -- i.e. idiot proof.
Thoughts?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ingham [mailto:David.Ingham@microsoft.com]
Sent: 12 June 2009 05:25
To: dev@qpid.apache.org
Subject: RE: Persistence FAQ for Java
Hey John,
As Steve mentioned we're working to implement a Windows persistence provider for Qpid/C++. We want this to be based on freely available components that won't require purchasing any proprietary software (over and above Windows itself). Our current thoughts are to build a hybrid store that uses the embeddable SQL Compact Edition for the configuration data and the Common Log File System (CLFS) [1] for the message store. We plan to make this available under the Apache License. For the Windows binary distribution I'd very much like to have a single installer that will install all the necessary components for a full-featured broker.
Dave.
[1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb986747(VS.85).aspx
-----Original Message-----
From: John O'Hara [mailto:john.r.ohara@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:02 PM
To: dev@qpid.apache.org
Subject: RE: Persistence FAQ for Java
Steve, Martin,
It would be great to get fully competent ASL licensed components
throughout -- our out of box experience is lacking because of the
"some assembly required" aspects of getting a production ready
persistent broker set up.
For a DB implementation for C++ that is ASL compatible, I think
SQLite (public domain) is probably the only option.
It's performance won't be stellar, but it could be very good and its
documented robustness characteristics seem good too.
Properly abstracted, it would also allow the core of a pluggable SQL
store with SQLite as the default.....
Cheers
John
At 15:39 11/06/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Martin,
>
> > Really we should just be sorting out an ASL store. The Java Broker's
> > Derby store is good but IIRC still has a couple of bugs that could
>do
> > with addressing.
> >
> > I've got some time to do some refactoring based on the designs on
> > Message Storage that are on the wiki so hopefully things will
>improve
> > in this area soon.
>
>Ok - I'm interested in your efforts here.
>
> > Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
> > persistent store?
>
>I have funding from Microsoft to do a persistence store for C++ on
>Windows. I'm not 100% certain of the licensing, but I'll check.
>
>-Steve
>
>
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RE: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by David Ingham <Da...@microsoft.com>.
Hey John,
As Steve mentioned we're working to implement a Windows persistence provider for Qpid/C++. We want this to be based on freely available components that won't require purchasing any proprietary software (over and above Windows itself). Our current thoughts are to build a hybrid store that uses the embeddable SQL Compact Edition for the configuration data and the Common Log File System (CLFS) [1] for the message store. We plan to make this available under the Apache License. For the Windows binary distribution I'd very much like to have a single installer that will install all the necessary components for a full-featured broker.
Dave.
[1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb986747(VS.85).aspx
-----Original Message-----
From: John O'Hara [mailto:john.r.ohara@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:02 PM
To: dev@qpid.apache.org
Subject: RE: Persisence FAQ for Java
Steve, Martin,
It would be great to get fully competent ASL licensed components
throughout -- our out of box experience is lacking becuase of the
"some assembly required" aspects of getting a production ready
persistent broker set up.
For a DB implementation for C++ that is ASL compatible, I think
SQLite (public domain) is probably the only option.
It's performance won't be stellar, but it could be very good and its
documented robustness characteristics seem good too.
Properly abstracted, it would also allow the core of a pluggable SQL
store with SQLite as the default.....
Cheers
John
At 15:39 11/06/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Martin,
>
> > Really we should just be sorting out an ASL store. The Java Broker's
> > Derby store is good but IIRC still has a couple of bugs that could
>do
> > with addressing.
> >
> > I've got some time to do some refactoring based on the designs on
> > Message Storage that are on the wiki so hopefully things will
>improve
> > in this area soon.
>
>Ok - I'm interested in your efforts here.
>
> > Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
> > persistent store?
>
>I have funding from Microsoft to do a persistence store for C++ on
>Windows. I'm not 100% certain of the licensing, but I'll check.
>
>-Steve
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Apache Qpid - AMQP Messaging Implementation
>Project: http://qpid.apache.org
>Use/Interact: mailto:dev-subscribe@qpid.apache.org
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RE: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by John O'Hara <jo...@gmail.com>.
Steve, Martin,
It would be great to get fully competent ASL licensed components
throughout -- our out of box experience is lacking becuase of the
"some assembly required" aspects of getting a production ready
persistent broker set up.
For a DB implementation for C++ that is ASL compatible, I think
SQLite (public domain) is probably the only option.
It's performance won't be stellar, but it could be very good and its
documented robustness characteristics seem good too.
Properly abstracted, it would also allow the core of a pluggable SQL
store with SQLite as the default.....
Cheers
John
At 15:39 11/06/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Martin,
>
> > Really we should just be sorting out an ASL store. The Java Broker's
> > Derby store is good but IIRC still has a couple of bugs that could
>do
> > with addressing.
> >
> > I've got some time to do some refactoring based on the designs on
> > Message Storage that are on the wiki so hopefully things will
>improve
> > in this area soon.
>
>Ok - I'm interested in your efforts here.
>
> > Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
> > persistent store?
>
>I have funding from Microsoft to do a persistence store for C++ on
>Windows. I'm not 100% certain of the licensing, but I'll check.
>
>-Steve
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Project: http://qpid.apache.org
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RE: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by Steve Huston <sh...@riverace.com>.
Hi Martin,
> Really we should just be sorting out an ASL store. The Java Broker's
> Derby store is good but IIRC still has a couple of bugs that could
do
> with addressing.
>
> I've got some time to do some refactoring based on the designs on
> Message Storage that are on the wiki so hopefully things will
improve
> in this area soon.
Ok - I'm interested in your efforts here.
> Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
> persistent store?
I have funding from Microsoft to do a persistence store for C++ on
Windows. I'm not 100% certain of the licensing, but I'll check.
-Steve
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Re: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by Martin Ritchie <ri...@apache.org>.
2009/6/11 Gordon Sim <gs...@redhat.com>:
> Martin Ritchie wrote:
>>
>> Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
>> persistent store?
>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/QPID-1726 - it's something I'd
> certainly like to see, but when I will have the time to do it myself is
> uncertain.
Totally know that feeing. :)
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Re: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by Gordon Sim <gs...@redhat.com>.
Martin Ritchie wrote:
> Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
> persistent store?
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/QPID-1726 - it's something I'd
certainly like to see, but when I will have the time to do it myself is
uncertain.
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Re: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by Martin Ritchie <ri...@apache.org>.
2009/6/10 Kim van der Riet <ki...@redhat.com>:
> On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 11:14 +0100, Martin Ritchie wrote:
>> I've updated the text a bit to include at least the name of the Apache
>> licensed Java broker persistent store.
>>
>> I also linked to the existing 3rd party library page that details how
>> to configure the BDB Store.
>>
>> I left a place holder for the Derby store configuration as I don't
>> believe there is anything more than simply setting the class entry.
>> That said, we don't actually have that documented anywhere. Would be
>> good if the person that wrote the Derby Store could add some
>> documentation.
>>
>> If I get some time then I'll try and add some more real docs rather
>> than just linking to existing content.
>
> Thanks for doing this.
>
> Should the Java placeholders under the "How do I build the persistence
> module from subversion checkouts?" and "How do I use the persistence
> store module?" be left in place?
Good question, I actually think we should get a wiki set up and JBoss
to host the build and install instructions for the BDB modules and
then we can just link to that. I've always been slightly uncomfortable
hosting JBoss instructions on Apache.
Really we should just be sorting out an ASL store. The Java Broker's
Derby store is good but IIRC still has a couple of bugs that could do
with addressing.
I've got some time to do some refactoring based on the designs on
Message Storage that are on the wiki so hopefully things will improve
in this area soon.
Are there any plans from the C++ side to make an ASL compatible
persistent store?
Cheers
Martin
> Kim
>
>
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>
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Re: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by Kim van der Riet <ki...@redhat.com>.
On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 11:14 +0100, Martin Ritchie wrote:
> I've updated the text a bit to include at least the name of the Apache
> licensed Java broker persistent store.
>
> I also linked to the existing 3rd party library page that details how
> to configure the BDB Store.
>
> I left a place holder for the Derby store configuration as I don't
> believe there is anything more than simply setting the class entry.
> That said, we don't actually have that documented anywhere. Would be
> good if the person that wrote the Derby Store could add some
> documentation.
>
> If I get some time then I'll try and add some more real docs rather
> than just linking to existing content.
Thanks for doing this.
Should the Java placeholders under the "How do I build the persistence
module from subversion checkouts?" and "How do I use the persistence
store module?" be left in place?
Kim
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Re: Persisence FAQ for Java
Posted by Martin Ritchie <ri...@apache.org>.
2009/6/9 Kim van der Riet <ki...@redhat.com>:
> I recently added a section in the FAQ
> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/qpid/FAQ for persistence. I
> have put the C++ sections in place, but left placeholders for the Java.
> It would complete the FAQ if someone with Java store knowledge can fill
> out the missing sections and, if necessary add new ones.
>
> The following sections need Java paragraphs:
>
> How do I build the persistence module from subversion checkouts?
>
> How do I use the persistence store module?
>
> How do I configure the store?
>
> -K
Hi Kim,
I've updated the text a bit to include at least the name of the Apache
licensed Java broker persistent store.
I also linked to the existing 3rd party library page that details how
to configure the BDB Store.
I left a place holder for the Derby store configuration as I don't
believe there is anything more than simply setting the class entry.
That said, we don't actually have that documented anywhere. Would be
good if the person that wrote the Derby Store could add some
documentation.
If I get some time then I'll try and add some more real docs rather
than just linking to existing content.
Regards
Martin
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Project: http://qpid.apache.org
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>
>
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