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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> on 2013/06/20 08:41:10 UTC

Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Hello,

So far we had no one who takes care of updating the web pages in the German community.
Meanwhile, a new volunteer has, with Piotr, found that makes this work. However, Piotr needs help commit himself so far that he is not a committer.

Rob had already commits recently (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-dev/201306.mbox/%3cCAP-ksoh5=eJqq1vCbeQFYou8CzEH4s=Soh5GQTmVoSwxqWVQGg@mail.gmail.com%3e), but currently stocking the work of Piotr because no one commits.

We have already discussed the changes on the German mailing list, so maybe Raphael, Oliver Juergen or are ready to take on the commit?
*In general, we need the next time relatively much support during committing as many websites need to be updated.*

Currently, the following changes should be committed properly to Piotr already at 10.06. had received:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-dev/201306.mbox/%3c20130610211727.1560B2173E1@cms.zones.apache.org%3e



Regards,
Jörg




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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
> Hello,
>
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>
>> > What is the problem?
>> >
>>
>> The CD is not from the Apache OpenOffice project.  It was not reviewed
>> and approved for release by the project.  It is a 3rd party product.
>> The website says it is from "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..":
>
> No, this is absolutely *not* true!
>
> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." is NOT the creator of the PrOOo-box, but that's us (Detlef, Jan and I) three members of the AOO-Community in Germany.
>
> You can see my entry here:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory+of+Volunteers
>
> and I can gladly Jan and Detlef ask to register there.
>

I know who you are.  That is not the issue here.


> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V. is the *only* one who pays us the hosting of the Box (850 euros per year).
>
> *We would be pleased if the Apache paid. Apache wants to do that?*
>
>> But these are still 3rd party distributions.
>
> No, this is the Box of german Members of the AOO-Community!
>

And "Members of the AOO-Community" are not the same as the "Apache
OpenOffice project".  So they are third parties.  Otherwise we run
into absurdities, like "Members of IBM" (who are also member of the
project) getting together asking to host links to Symphony on the
www.openoffice.org homepage.


>
> But that is not the problem, because the question is a Others, namely how we can make local work on AOO when we can not even provide information users need?
>
> A notice in a news-teaser is anyway only a temporary entry. What is the problem?
>

I'm sorry what I said was not clear.  Maybe someone else can explain it better.

>
> Rob, you have, tell me here on the list, the following:
>
> * it's okay to get involved locally for AOO and Apache welcomes such activities
>
> * I should self make a choice
>
>
> However, I live in Germany, and here I know the OpenOffice users for more than 8 years, and I know what users need for assistance.
> And we all have to do something otherwise AOO lost in Germany. Sorry, but that *is* the truth.
>

This is all fine.  We just need to be clear what is a product of
Apache, and what is done by 3rd parties, even 3rd parties who are also
members of the project.  And for 3rd parties we must treat their
products specially.    And one area we need to be careful about is how
we advertise 3rd party products on the website.

>
>> So we are fair and we don't give special prominence to any single 3rd
>> party distribution.
>
> But that is *not* what is needed.
>
> There shall be *no* permanent link, but only a *temporary* news-teaser. This teaser is automatically replaced by someone else, as soon as there are new news.
>
> What is the problem?
>

Advertising 3rd party products on the homepage.

-Rob

>
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
>> From: Peter Junge [mailto:peter.junge@gmx.org]
>
>> > *We would be pleased if the Apache paid. Apache wants to do that?*
>>
>> As far as I understand the Apache way: Apache products must
>> be hosted by
>> Apache infrastructure(*),
>
> If the Apache to want that's OK.
>
>
> But please check it out my problem:
>
> if I develop something that is useful for the users of AOO, and I'm AOO community member, how can I tell you when I'm not allowed to talk about it?
>

I think this page covers it well:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles

Especially the part on multiple "hats":

"Individuals compose the ASF

All of the ASF including the board, the other officers, the
committers, and the members, are participating as individuals. That is
one strength of the ASF, affiliations do not cloud the personal
contributions.

Unless they specifically state otherwise, whatever they post on any
mailing list is done as themselves. It is the individual
point-of-view, wearing their personal hat and not as a mouthpiece for
whatever company happens to be signing their paychecks right now, and
not even as a director of the ASF.

All of those ASF people implicitly have multiple hats, especially the
Board, the other officers, and the PMC chairs. They sometimes need to
talk about a matter of policy, so to avoid appearing to be expressing
a personal opinion, they will state that they are talking in their
special capacity. However, most of the time this is not necessary,
personal opinions work well.

Some people declare their hats by using a special footer to their
email, others enclose their statements in special quotation marks,
others use their apache.org email address when otherwise they would
use their personal one. This latter method is not reliable, as many
people use their apache.org address all of the time."

So how do we apply this to 3rd party announcements?  For example, I
think it is always fair for an individual to post a message to a
mailing list, with news about a new release.  The post comes from an
personal email address, not an Apache one, and it is clear to everyone
that it is not an official project announcement.

However, when we put something on a website, it is not clear what hat
is speaking.  And when it is put on a major page, like the German
homepage, it will look, to users, exactly like an official project
announcement.

Of course, it is important to help promote the ecosystem, and the
contributions of 3rd parties.  We have ways of doing this.  Look at
the consultants directory, or the list of third party books, or the
ports and distributions page.  They all have something in common:

1) We put a disclaimer stating that these are 3rd party items, not
endorsed by the project.

2) We don't advertise them directly on the home page.

> These are the facts:
>
> -I am member of the community for 8 years (first in OOo now at AOO)
> -the PrOOo-Box for years in Germany as the CD of the community known (and *not* as a product of a third party)
> -the PrOOo-box is only made by german AOO community members
>
> And all to what is going on is a temporary news-teaser.
>
>
> Is it the Apache-way to tell their own community members, no we do not want the reports to her about your work?
> May only be called public work of community members when it takes place on Apache sites?
>
> A news teaser is not a press release, not a privilege, it is only a piece of information for users.
>

I disagree. Placement of announcements the homepage is not something
we do for all 3rd parties.  We can discuss whether, as a project, we
want to start doing that.  But our practice has been not to allow
that.  It would be unfair to do this selectively.

>
> And please, let me put it exactly:
>
> the problem is not _the one_ teaser, the problem is my lack of understanding as we locally on site, can work for AOO when we officially allowed to say anything about it.
>
> The PrOOo box is a result of our work, the work of the German AOO community, why can not you report it?
>

There is nothing wrong with reporting it on the mailing list, from a
personal email address.   Maybe we could have a blog post as well?  We
did that with winPenPack, where I interviewed the project lead.  There
are ways for us to recognize ecosystem contributions.  But an
advertisement on the home page is not one of them.

> AND:
>
> *Why wants to Apache, we advertise [1] on the PrOOo box for Apache when it is not desired the other hand, we mention the PrOOo-box?*
>
> [1]
> That was the content of the request we received from trademarks@apache.org, because there was requested that we put a link to the project pages of Apache. We gladly accepted of course.
>


We receive permission requests from many parties who wish to
redistribute AOO.  But so far we have never put an advertisement for
any of them on our homepage.

Regards,

-Rob



>
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Peter Junge [mailto:peter.junge@gmx.org] 

> > *We would be pleased if the Apache paid. Apache wants to do that?*
> 
> As far as I understand the Apache way: Apache products must 
> be hosted by 
> Apache infrastructure(*),

If the Apache to want that's OK.


But please check it out my problem:

if I develop something that is useful for the users of AOO, and I'm AOO community member, how can I tell you when I'm not allowed to talk about it?

These are the facts:

-I am member of the community for 8 years (first in OOo now at AOO)
-the PrOOo-Box for years in Germany as the CD of the community known (and *not* as a product of a third party)
-the PrOOo-box is only made by german AOO community members

And all to what is going on is a temporary news-teaser.


Is it the Apache-way to tell their own community members, no we do not want the reports to her about your work?
May only be called public work of community members when it takes place on Apache sites?

A news teaser is not a press release, not a privilege, it is only a piece of information for users.


And please, let me put it exactly:

the problem is not _the one_ teaser, the problem is my lack of understanding as we locally on site, can work for AOO when we officially allowed to say anything about it.

The PrOOo box is a result of our work, the work of the German AOO community, why can not you report it?

AND:

*Why wants to Apache, we advertise [1] on the PrOOo box for Apache when it is not desired the other hand, we mention the PrOOo-box?*

[1]
That was the content of the request we received from trademarks@apache.org, because there was requested that we put a link to the project pages of Apache. We gladly accepted of course.



Greetings,
Jörg




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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Peter Junge <pe...@gmx.org> wrote:
> On 6/21/2013 9:59 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>
>>
>>>> What is the problem?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The CD is not from the Apache OpenOffice project.  It was not reviewed
>>> and approved for release by the project.  It is a 3rd party product.
>>> The website says it is from "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..":
>>
>>
>> No, this is absolutely *not* true!
>>
>> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." is NOT the creator of the
>> PrOOo-box, but that's us (Detlef, Jan and I) three members of the
>> AOO-Community in Germany.
>>
>> You can see my entry here:
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory+of+Volunteers
>>
>> and I can gladly Jan and Detlef ask to register there.
>>
>> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V. is the *only* one who pays us
>> the hosting of the Box (850 euros per year).
>>
>> *We would be pleased if the Apache paid. Apache wants to do that?*
>
>
> As far as I understand the Apache way: Apache products must be hosted by
> Apache infrastructure(*), but as the PrOOo-Box certainly contains also
> non-Apache products it cannot be hosted at Apache. Seems a Catch-22 to me.
> Does someone has any good idea how to fix this? It would certainly be a good
> thing to continue the PrOOo-Box within the AOO community.
>

Do you have a list of what non-Apache products are included?

There may be something possible here.

The AOO install sets, for example, include non-Apache components.  But
we had to carefully review them for license requirements, and document
these licenses and required notices, etc.  And this was all decided by
a public vote of the PMC.

So this may be possible.  But it must start with a proposal and
discussion on the dev list.  So it is good to start this discussion
now.

-Rob


> (*) Apache strictly requires to avoid community fragmentation like it had
> happened with OOo.
>
> Best regards
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> But these are still 3rd party distributions.
>>
>>
>> No, this is the Box of german Members of the AOO-Community!
>>
>>
>> But that is not the problem, because the question is a Others, namely how
>> we can make local work on AOO when we can not even provide information users
>> need?
>>
>> A notice in a news-teaser is anyway only a temporary entry. What is the
>> problem?
>>
>>
>> Rob, you have, tell me here on the list, the following:
>>
>> * it's okay to get involved locally for AOO and Apache welcomes such
>> activities
>>
>> * I should self make a choice
>>
>>
>> However, I live in Germany, and here I know the OpenOffice users for more
>> than 8 years, and I know what users need for assistance.
>> And we all have to do something otherwise AOO lost in Germany. Sorry, but
>> that *is* the truth.
>>
>>
>>> So we are fair and we don't give special prominence to any single 3rd
>>> party distribution.
>>
>>
>> But that is *not* what is needed.
>>
>> There shall be *no* permanent link, but only a *temporary* news-teaser.
>> This teaser is automatically replaced by someone else, as soon as there are
>> new news.
>>
>> What is the problem?
>>
>>
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Jörg
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] Contributing Existing Works [Was: Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites]

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2wave@comcast.net] 
> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 8:01 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: [DISCUSS] Contributing Existing Works [Was: Re: Can 
> somebody please commit the update of the de-websites]
> 
> 
> On Jun 21, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Peter Junge wrote:
> 
> > On 6/21/2013 9:59 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >> 
> >>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> >> 
> >>>> What is the problem?
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >>> The CD is not from the Apache OpenOffice project.  It was 
> not reviewed
> >>> and approved for release by the project.  It is a 3rd 
> party product.
> >>> The website says it is from "Verein Freies Office 
> Deutschland e.V..":
> >> 
> >> No, this is absolutely *not* true!
> >> 
> >> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." is NOT the 
> creator of the PrOOo-box, but that's us (Detlef, Jan and I) 
> three members of the AOO-Community in Germany.
> >> 
> >> You can see my entry here:
> >> 
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory
> +of+Volunteers
> >> 
> >> and I can gladly Jan and Detlef ask to register there.
> >> 
> >> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V. is the *only* 
> one who pays us the hosting of the Box (850 euros per year).
> >> 
> >> *We would be pleased if the Apache paid. Apache wants to do that?*
> > 
> > As far as I understand the Apache way: Apache products must 
> be hosted by Apache infrastructure(*), but as the PrOOo-Box 
> certainly contains also non-Apache products it cannot be 
> hosted at Apache. Seems a Catch-22 to me. Does someone has 
> any good idea how to fix this? It would certainly be a good 
> thing to continue the PrOOo-Box within the AOO community.
> > 
> > (*) Apache strictly requires to avoid community 
> fragmentation like it had happened with OOo.
> 
> I would like to continue this discussion with a different 
> approach. Let's discuss the process for PrOOo-Box to become 
> part of the Apache OpenOffice product. There are several 
> steps and it is worth exploring. Of course I must preface 
> this with "I am not a lawyer." The following would need to be 
> considered:
> 
> (1) License / IP Clearance. A review of the non-Apache 
> products included in PrOOo-Box is necessary. If these are 
> compatible then it is possible to include them in a 
> "release". If not then they are other considerations which 
> would depend on packaging and all kinds of legal and 
> technical challenges.
> 
> (2) Copyright. If the three of you own the unique aspects 
> then you may need to re-license these to AL2.0 - the Apache LIcense.
> 
> (3) Individual Contributor License Agreements (ICLA) help. If 
> there is a large amount of unique IP then a Software Grant 
> may be requested.
> 
> (4) The AOO PMC would have to accept the donation through a 
> VOTE or LAZY CONSENSUS.
> 
> We can all learn something from the PrOOo-box team.

We may like to discuss the necessary steps, but please understand that we (the
PrOOo-Box-team) also need to advise us only if we want to do.

When Rob, for example, of "creative control" speaks, which is also a point to be
noted, too.


Even if we say yes, it will take long until we can start, I think not before 2014.

Please see the situation:
PrOOo the box it was in OOo, many years. e.g. here is a picture of PrOOo-Box from
2004:
http://www.openoffice.org/de/veranstaltungen/systems2004/uebergabe.jpg

(Yes, the PrOOo box was once a real box with brochure and CD/DVD. We hope that
this will be it in the future, but currently there is only an ISO and some of us
have some private DVD-R burned.)

But then most people involved have switched to LO and the PrOOo box would not
update for 2 years.
Since 1.5 years we have been back (with a new team) to work on it, but there is a
lot of work, as many things are to be updated. Similarly, there was again a lot of
work to revitalize the technical infrastructure and this process is not yet
completed.


Greetings,
Jörg


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[DISCUSS] Contributing Existing Works [Was: Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites]

Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 21, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Peter Junge wrote:

> On 6/21/2013 9:59 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> 
>>>> What is the problem?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> The CD is not from the Apache OpenOffice project.  It was not reviewed
>>> and approved for release by the project.  It is a 3rd party product.
>>> The website says it is from "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..":
>> 
>> No, this is absolutely *not* true!
>> 
>> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." is NOT the creator of the PrOOo-box, but that's us (Detlef, Jan and I) three members of the AOO-Community in Germany.
>> 
>> You can see my entry here:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory+of+Volunteers
>> 
>> and I can gladly Jan and Detlef ask to register there.
>> 
>> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V. is the *only* one who pays us the hosting of the Box (850 euros per year).
>> 
>> *We would be pleased if the Apache paid. Apache wants to do that?*
> 
> As far as I understand the Apache way: Apache products must be hosted by Apache infrastructure(*), but as the PrOOo-Box certainly contains also non-Apache products it cannot be hosted at Apache. Seems a Catch-22 to me. Does someone has any good idea how to fix this? It would certainly be a good thing to continue the PrOOo-Box within the AOO community.
> 
> (*) Apache strictly requires to avoid community fragmentation like it had happened with OOo.

I would like to continue this discussion with a different approach. Let's discuss the process for PrOOo-Box to become part of the Apache OpenOffice product. There are several steps and it is worth exploring. Of course I must preface this with "I am not a lawyer." The following would need to be considered:

(1) License / IP Clearance. A review of the non-Apache products included in PrOOo-Box is necessary. If these are compatible then it is possible to include them in a "release". If not then they are other considerations which would depend on packaging and all kinds of legal and technical challenges.

(2) Copyright. If the three of you own the unique aspects then you may need to re-license these to AL2.0 - the Apache LIcense.

(3) Individual Contributor License Agreements (ICLA) help. If there is a large amount of unique IP then a Software Grant may be requested.

(4) The AOO PMC would have to accept the donation through a VOTE or LAZY CONSENSUS.

We can all learn something from the PrOOo-box team.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> Best regards
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>>> But these are still 3rd party distributions.
>> 
>> No, this is the Box of german Members of the AOO-Community!
>> 
>> 
>> But that is not the problem, because the question is a Others, namely how we can make local work on AOO when we can not even provide information users need?
>> 
>> A notice in a news-teaser is anyway only a temporary entry. What is the problem?
>> 
>> 
>> Rob, you have, tell me here on the list, the following:
>> 
>> * it's okay to get involved locally for AOO and Apache welcomes such activities
>> 
>> * I should self make a choice
>> 
>> 
>> However, I live in Germany, and here I know the OpenOffice users for more than 8 years, and I know what users need for assistance.
>> And we all have to do something otherwise AOO lost in Germany. Sorry, but that *is* the truth.
>> 
>> 
>>> So we are fair and we don't give special prominence to any single 3rd
>>> party distribution.
>> 
>> But that is *not* what is needed.
>> 
>> There shall be *no* permanent link, but only a *temporary* news-teaser. This teaser is automatically replaced by someone else, as soon as there are new news.
>> 
>> What is the problem?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Greetings,
>> Jörg
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> 


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Peter Junge <pe...@gmx.org>.
On 6/21/2013 9:59 PM, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> Hello,
>
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>
>>> What is the problem?
>>>
>>
>> The CD is not from the Apache OpenOffice project.  It was not reviewed
>> and approved for release by the project.  It is a 3rd party product.
>> The website says it is from "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..":
>
> No, this is absolutely *not* true!
>
> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." is NOT the creator of the PrOOo-box, but that's us (Detlef, Jan and I) three members of the AOO-Community in Germany.
>
> You can see my entry here:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory+of+Volunteers
>
> and I can gladly Jan and Detlef ask to register there.
>
> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V. is the *only* one who pays us the hosting of the Box (850 euros per year).
>
> *We would be pleased if the Apache paid. Apache wants to do that?*

As far as I understand the Apache way: Apache products must be hosted by 
Apache infrastructure(*), but as the PrOOo-Box certainly contains also 
non-Apache products it cannot be hosted at Apache. Seems a Catch-22 to 
me. Does someone has any good idea how to fix this? It would certainly 
be a good thing to continue the PrOOo-Box within the AOO community.

(*) Apache strictly requires to avoid community fragmentation like it 
had happened with OOo.

Best regards
Peter






>
>> But these are still 3rd party distributions.
>
> No, this is the Box of german Members of the AOO-Community!
>
>
> But that is not the problem, because the question is a Others, namely how we can make local work on AOO when we can not even provide information users need?
>
> A notice in a news-teaser is anyway only a temporary entry. What is the problem?
>
>
> Rob, you have, tell me here on the list, the following:
>
> * it's okay to get involved locally for AOO and Apache welcomes such activities
>
> * I should self make a choice
>
>
> However, I live in Germany, and here I know the OpenOffice users for more than 8 years, and I know what users need for assistance.
> And we all have to do something otherwise AOO lost in Germany. Sorry, but that *is* the truth.
>
>
>> So we are fair and we don't give special prominence to any single 3rd
>> party distribution.
>
> But that is *not* what is needed.
>
> There shall be *no* permanent link, but only a *temporary* news-teaser. This teaser is automatically replaced by someone else, as soon as there are new news.
>
> What is the problem?
>
>
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,

> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 

> > What is the problem?
> >
> 
> The CD is not from the Apache OpenOffice project.  It was not reviewed
> and approved for release by the project.  It is a 3rd party product.
> The website says it is from "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..":

No, this is absolutely *not* true! 

The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." is NOT the creator of the PrOOo-box, but that's us (Detlef, Jan and I) three members of the AOO-Community in Germany.

You can see my entry here:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory+of+Volunteers

and I can gladly Jan and Detlef ask to register there.

The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V. is the *only* one who pays us the hosting of the Box (850 euros per year).

*We would be pleased if the Apache paid. Apache wants to do that?*

> But these are still 3rd party distributions.

No, this is the Box of german Members of the AOO-Community!


But that is not the problem, because the question is a Others, namely how we can make local work on AOO when we can not even provide information users need?

A notice in a news-teaser is anyway only a temporary entry. What is the problem?


Rob, you have, tell me here on the list, the following:

* it's okay to get involved locally for AOO and Apache welcomes such activities

* I should self make a choice


However, I live in Germany, and here I know the OpenOffice users for more than 8 years, and I know what users need for assistance.
And we all have to do something otherwise AOO lost in Germany. Sorry, but that *is* the truth.


> So we are fair and we don't give special prominence to any single 3rd
> party distribution.

But that is *not* what is needed. 

There shall be *no* permanent link, but only a *temporary* news-teaser. This teaser is automatically replaced by someone else, as soon as there are new news. 

What is the problem?



Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] 

> Someone is responsible for the box and it semms to me, it's 
> not the ASF.
> So we have to make clear, who's the legal entity distributing the box
> (even it's a gift).

The legal entity is, in this case, formally an group consisting of Detlef, Jan and me.

(Formally, the person responsible for the website is Jan, and for the DVD it's Detlef.)



Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Am 21.06.2013 17:35, schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>> From: RA Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] 
> 
>> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
>>
>> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a 
>> product of the
>> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
> 
> No, that's not right!
> 
> The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." only pays for web hosting, it has no rights or influence the content.
> 
> 
Someone is responsible for the box and it semms to me, it's not the ASF.
So we have to make clear, who's the legal entity distributing the box
(even it's a gift).

Regards
Michael

Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: RA Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] 

> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
> 
> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a 
> product of the
> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".

No, that's not right!

The "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." only pays for web hosting, it has no rights or influence the content.


Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by RGB ES <rg...@gmail.com>.
2013/6/21 Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>

> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 AM, RA Stehmann
> <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
> > Hi Rob,
> >
> > I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
> >
> > I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of the
> > ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
> >
> > But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." isn't
> > any old third party.
> >
>
> We need to be fair.  Treating one 3rd party special is not fair.
>

+1. An exception never confirms a rule, an exception always break a rule.
No matter if we are talking about an old and trusted friend, a third party
is always a third party with the same rights and duties of all other third
parties.



>
> > It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
> > still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
> > Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
> >
> > Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.
> >
> > So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage, making
> > clear, who's the distributor of that product.
> >
>
> I'd be much happier if the German community listened to what I am
> saying and took steps to address the full issue. IMHO you need to add
> a page that gives equal access to all 3rd party ports and
> distributions, and not just favor a single one with a news
> announcement.
>
> If you then give announcements of updates to these distributions,
> whenever they occur, and do such announcements fairly, not for just a
> single 3rd party, then this might be OK.   So if you really want to
> move this forward I'd highly recommend creating and maintaining a
> German version of the porting page:
> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
>
>
+1 again. IMO, this is by far the best solution. All community members
deserve the same respect.

Regards
Ricardo



> -Rob
>
> > Regards
> > Michael
> >
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Dr. Michael Stehmann
<an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
> Am 21.06.2013 17:06, schrieb Rob Weir:
>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 AM, RA Stehmann
>> <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
>>> Hi Rob,
>>>
>>> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
>>>
>>> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of the
>>> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>>
>>> But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." isn't
>>> any old third party.
>>>
>>
>> We need to be fair.  Treating one 3rd party special is not fair.
>
> Treating equal things unequal isn't fair, but it's also unfair treating
> unequal things equal. You have to make the decision, what's equal and
> whd what's unequa and in what aspect. That's the sense of "suum cuique
> tribuere".

This is a clever argument but is not relevant to this topic.  There
are multiple definitions of fairness, but the one we need to follow is
based on US tax law related to the ASF's status as a non-profit
corporation, as well as related Apache policy and practice in this
area.   We should not be giving exclusive benefits to one 3rd party
over another based on old friendships, etc.   This may be different
for German foundations.  Even in the US there are different forms of
organizations (fraternal clubs, etc.) that have different rules.

For purposes of 3rd part distributions, fairness means we define rules
for listing 3rd party distributions that work to benefit the public
and then apply those rules impartially.  But we need to avoid
preferential treatment based purely on personal relations or status in
the community.

You can see examples of this in how we list consultants:

http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html

Anyone who applied and met the basic requirements was listed.  We did
not give special placement to those who were in the community longer,
etc.

We're doing something similar for CD distributors.  Again, it will be
done fairly, giving all qualified 3rd parties equal access.

So when you hear the word "fairness" in this context, that is
generally what is meant.

Regards,

-Rob

>>
>>> It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
>>> still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
>>> Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.
>>>
>>> So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage, making
>>> clear, who's the distributor of that product.
>>>
>>
>> I'd be much happier if the German community listened to what I am
>> saying and took steps to address the full issue. IMHO you need to add
>> a page that gives equal access to all 3rd party ports and
>> distributions, and not just favor a single one with a news
>> announcement.
>
> see above.
>
> IMO you like to treat uneqal things equal.
>
> Making a page presenting third party products makes sense.
>
> But it don't makes sense, presenting all third party products in the
> news. And it makes IMO sense presenting the box there.
>
>>
>> If you then give announcements of updates to these distributions,
>> whenever they occur, and do such announcements fairly, not for just a
>> single 3rd party, then this might be OK.   So if you really want to
>> move this forward I'd highly recommend creating and maintaining a
>> German version of the porting page:
>> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
>>
>
> Doing one thing doesn't mean to drop another.
>
> Regards
> Michael
>
>
>

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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 22, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jun 21, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Dr. Michael Stehmann wrote:
>> 
>>> Am 21.06.2013 17:06, schrieb Rob Weir:
>>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 AM, RA Stehmann
>>>> <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Rob,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of
>> the
>>>>> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>>>> 
>>>>> But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.."
>> isn't
>>>>> any old third party.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> We need to be fair.  Treating one 3rd party special is not fair.
>>> 
>>> Treating equal things unequal isn't fair, but it's also unfair treating
>>> unequal things equal. You have to make the decision, what's equal and
>>> whd what's unequa and in what aspect. That's the sense of "suum cuique
>>> tribuere".
>> 
>> My recollection of the discussion was.
>> 
>> (1) Have a 3rd party page.
>> 
>> (2) Each language may have their own 3rd party page.
>> 
>> (3) Each language can have their own news feed.
>> 
>> (4) Each news item may link to a 3rd party page.
>> 
>> Conclusion.
>> 
>> DE page can have news about PrOOo and point to a link on the 3rd party
>> page.
>> 
>> Do we all agree?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
> 
> Could these points be placed in their own [PROPOSAL] thread so they could
> be discussed on their own?
> 
> If we could do that and either vote, or at least have a consensus, I think
> it would be a good idea to further clarify this topic by adding a new "Web
> guidelines" page to the project site --  http://openoffice.apache.org/

Done. I certainly want to separate this ... let's move forward. Saying less can be saying more. (A paraphrase of Mies van der Rohe's "Less is More")

Regards,
Dave

> 
> 
> 
>>>> 
>>>>> It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
>>>>> still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
>>>>> Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>>>> 
>>>>> Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage,
>> making
>>>>> clear, who's the distributor of that product.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I'd be much happier if the German community listened to what I am
>>>> saying and took steps to address the full issue. IMHO you need to add
>>>> a page that gives equal access to all 3rd party ports and
>>>> distributions, and not just favor a single one with a news
>>>> announcement.
>>> 
>>> see above.
>>> 
>>> IMO you like to treat uneqal things equal.
>>> 
>>> Making a page presenting third party products makes sense.
>>> 
>>> But it don't makes sense, presenting all third party products in the
>>> news. And it makes IMO sense presenting the box there.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If you then give announcements of updates to these distributions,
>>>> whenever they occur, and do such announcements fairly, not for just a
>>>> single 3rd party, then this might be OK.   So if you really want to
>>>> move this forward I'd highly recommend creating and maintaining a
>>>> German version of the porting page:
>>>> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Doing one thing doesn't mean to drop another.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> Michael
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
> 
> "If you stick with a vision, it might not all work,
> but some of it will be absolute genius."
>                                           -- Kim Cattrall


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> On Jun 21, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Dr. Michael Stehmann wrote:
>
> > Am 21.06.2013 17:06, schrieb Rob Weir:
> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 AM, RA Stehmann
> >> <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
> >>> Hi Rob,
> >>>
> >>> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
> >>>
> >>> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of
> the
> >>> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
> >>>
> >>> But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.."
> isn't
> >>> any old third party.
> >>>
> >>
> >> We need to be fair.  Treating one 3rd party special is not fair.
> >
> > Treating equal things unequal isn't fair, but it's also unfair treating
> > unequal things equal. You have to make the decision, what's equal and
> > whd what's unequa and in what aspect. That's the sense of "suum cuique
> > tribuere".
>
> My recollection of the discussion was.
>
> (1) Have a 3rd party page.
>
> (2) Each language may have their own 3rd party page.
>
> (3) Each language can have their own news feed.
>
> (4) Each news item may link to a 3rd party page.
>
> Conclusion.
>
> DE page can have news about PrOOo and point to a link on the 3rd party
> page.
>
> Do we all agree?
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>

Could these points be placed in their own [PROPOSAL] thread so they could
be discussed on their own?

If we could do that and either vote, or at least have a consensus, I think
it would be a good idea to further clarify this topic by adding a new "Web
guidelines" page to the project site --  http://openoffice.apache.org/



> >>
> >>> It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
> >>> still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
> >>> Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
> >>>
> >>> Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.
> >>>
> >>> So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage,
> making
> >>> clear, who's the distributor of that product.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'd be much happier if the German community listened to what I am
> >> saying and took steps to address the full issue. IMHO you need to add
> >> a page that gives equal access to all 3rd party ports and
> >> distributions, and not just favor a single one with a news
> >> announcement.
> >
> > see above.
> >
> > IMO you like to treat uneqal things equal.
> >
> > Making a page presenting third party products makes sense.
> >
> > But it don't makes sense, presenting all third party products in the
> > news. And it makes IMO sense presenting the box there.
> >
> >>
> >> If you then give announcements of updates to these distributions,
> >> whenever they occur, and do such announcements fairly, not for just a
> >> single 3rd party, then this might be OK.   So if you really want to
> >> move this forward I'd highly recommend creating and maintaining a
> >> German version of the porting page:
> >> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
> >>
> >
> > Doing one thing doesn't mean to drop another.
> >
> > Regards
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
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>


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"If you stick with a vision, it might not all work,
 but some of it will be absolute genius."
                                           -- Kim Cattrall

Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jorg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
 
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2wave@comcast.net] 

> My recollection of the discussion was.
> 
> (1) Have a 3rd party page.
> 
> (2) Each language may have their own 3rd party page.
> 
> (3) Each language can have their own news feed.
> 
> (4) Each news item may link to a 3rd party page.
> 
> Conclusion.
> 
> DE page can have news about PrOOo and point to a link on the 
> 3rd party page.

In my view, that would be a very aktzeptable solution.

Please note:
an important part of the solution is that there are language-specific 3rd party
pages. Because that is understandable for the local user.

> Do we all agree?

I think the question is only for PMC members, it is not, then by me +1



Greetings,
Jorg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 8:54 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites
> 
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Andrea Pescetti 
> <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On 23/06/2013 Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> >>
> >> At the moment a question:
> >> Would there be problems if we did our work, mainly in 
> German, coordinate?
> >
> >
> > This wouldn't be particularly problematic (we already have 
> German-only
> > lists), provided that there is regular interaction with 
> this list too, since
> > in that case PrOOo-Box would be an official product and key 
> decisions would
> > need to be taken here on the dev list.
> >
> 
> It looks like we need to update this page as well:
> 
> http://www.openoffice.org/de/doc/faq/prooobox/

Yes, you're right.

We are currently already working in the entire German-language wiki FAQ to revise:
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/DE-AOO/FAQ

(this will be taken later on the website)

under which we then updated the FAQ to PrOOo box, the entire Prozesss _but takes time_. 



Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 23/06/2013 Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>>
>> At the moment a question:
>> Would there be problems if we did our work, mainly in German, coordinate?
>
>
> This wouldn't be particularly problematic (we already have German-only
> lists), provided that there is regular interaction with this list too, since
> in that case PrOOo-Box would be an official product and key decisions would
> need to be taken here on the dev list.
>

It looks like we need to update this page as well:

http://www.openoffice.org/de/doc/faq/prooobox/

-Rob


> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 23/06/2013 Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> At the moment a question:
> Would there be problems if we did our work, mainly in German, coordinate?

This wouldn't be particularly problematic (we already have German-only 
lists), provided that there is regular interaction with this list too, 
since in that case PrOOo-Box would be an official product and key 
decisions would need to be taken here on the dev list.

Regards,
   Andrea.

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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org] 

> So in concrete, what we need to implement Dave's proposal is:
> 
> 1) A description of PrOOoBox (two lines in English) from the PrOOoBox 
> volunteers; send it in any form you wish, even here by e-mail, and it 
> will be added to the "Available now" section of 
> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

Detlef (one of our team) is already working on a text.

> 2) A German version of http://www.openoffice.org/porting/ 
> that will live 
> at http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ or similar (improving the 
> layout is not forbidden of course!); this can be provided by any 
> German-speaking volunteer, it's not a lot of text.

Yes, such a page I will create together with Piotr.

> 3) Then the German site can publish news about PrOOoBox, linked to 
> http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ and everybody is happy.

Yes.

> I'll be very happy if this happens, and surely the PrOOoBox 
> volunteers 
> can receive any guidance they need if they want to do this 
> too. But the 
> other option can definitely be done in a few days, while this 
> one takes 
> more time. So I suggest that we start with the other option and that, 
> when that is online,

+1

> we continue talking about this option (making 
> PrOOoBox official) if the PrOOoBox volunteers want to do so.

This will go a long way and a lot of work, so we have to consider it well. We will need to discuss in our team.

At the moment a question:
Would there be problems if we did our work, mainly in German, coordinate?
Please understand that we endeavor to involve local helpers, not each of them speaks English.

Note:
It would be OK to make in addition also an English edition of PrOOo box, but exceeds our strength.



Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Detlef Nannen <de...@prooo-box.org>.
Hello Rob,
>
> And something optional, if you think this would be useful.   I can
> write up a blog post interview with the creators of PrOOoBox, where
> you can tell the story of this software collection.   I'd do the
> interview in English, of course, but we could also include a German
> translation in the same blog post.  (We've done other multilingual
> blog posts before).

Thank you for the offer. We actually find this useful. It can serve to 
shed some light on the PrOOo box and our small team of it.

-- 
We expect the questions.
Detlef


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Detlef Nannen
<de...@prooo-box.org> wrote:
> Hallo,
>
> Am 22.06.2013 22:57, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
>
> Thank you for this clear next steps.
>
>
>> > So in concrete, what we need to implement Dave's proposal is:
>> >
>> > 1) A description of PrOOoBox (two lines in English) from the PrOOoBox
>> > volunteers; send it in any form you wish, even here by e-mail, and it
>> > will be added to the "Available now" section of
>> > http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
>
> The PrOOo-Box is a collection of open source applications for the office
> area, which is created by members of the German AOO community. The core
> of the collection is the free office suite Apache  OpenOffice™
>
>
>> > 2) A German version of http://www.openoffice.org/porting/ that will live
>> > at http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ or similar (improving the
>> > layout is not forbidden of course!); this can be provided by any
>> > German-speaking volunteer, it's not a lot of text.
>
> Follows in a few days.
>
>
>> >
>> > 3) Then the German site can publish news about PrOOoBox, linked to
>> > http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ and everybody is happy.
>
> Yes, we will be happy.
>

And something optional, if you think this would be useful.   I can
write up a blog post interview with the creators of PrOOoBox, where
you can tell the story of this software collection.   I'd do the
interview in English, of course, but we could also include a German
translation in the same blog post.  (We've done other multilingual
blog posts before).

Regards,

-Rob

> --
> Regards
> Detlef
>
>
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Detlef Nannen <de...@prooo-box.org>.
Hallo,

Am 22.06.2013 22:57, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:

Thank you for this clear next steps.

 > > So in concrete, what we need to implement Dave's proposal is:
 > >
 > > 1) A description of PrOOoBox (two lines in English) from the PrOOoBox
 > > volunteers; send it in any form you wish, even here by e-mail, and it
 > > will be added to the "Available now" section of
 > > http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

The PrOOo-Box is a collection of open source applications for the office
area, which is created by members of the German AOO community. The core
of the collection is the free office suite Apache  OpenOffice™

 > > 2) A German version of http://www.openoffice.org/porting/ that will 
live
 > > at http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ or similar (improving the
 > > layout is not forbidden of course!); this can be provided by any
 > > German-speaking volunteer, it's not a lot of text.

Follows in a few days.

 > >
 > > 3) Then the German site can publish news about PrOOoBox, linked to
 > > http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ and everybody is happy.

Yes, we will be happy.

-- 
Regards
Detlef



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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 23/06/2013 Detlef Nannen wrote:
> Am 22.06.2013 22:57, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
>  > > 1) A description of PrOOoBox (two lines in English) from the PrOOoBox
>  > > volunteers; send it in any form you wish, even here by e-mail, and it
>  > > will be added to the "Available now" section of
>  > > http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
> The PrOOo-Box is a collection of open source applications for the office
> area, which is created by members of the German AOO community. The core
> of the collection is the free office suite Apache OpenOffice™

Thanks, committed to http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

Regards,
   Andrea.

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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Detlef Nannen <de...@gmail.com>.
Hallo,

Am 22.06.2013 22:57, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:

Thank you for this clear next steps.

 > > So in concrete, what we need to implement Dave's proposal is:
 > >
 > > 1) A description of PrOOoBox (two lines in English) from the PrOOoBox
 > > volunteers; send it in any form you wish, even here by e-mail, and it
 > > will be added to the "Available now" section of
 > > http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

The PrOOo-Box is a collection of open source applications for the office
area, which is created by members of the German AOO community. The core
of the collection is the free office suite Apache  OpenOffice™

 > > 2) A German version of http://www.openoffice.org/porting/ that will 
live
 > > at http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ or similar (improving the
 > > layout is not forbidden of course!); this can be provided by any
 > > German-speaking volunteer, it's not a lot of text.

Follows in a few days.

 > >
 > > 3) Then the German site can publish news about PrOOoBox, linked to
 > > http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ and everybody is happy.

Yes, we will be happy.

-- 
Regards
Detlef



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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 22/06/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
> It might help if you stated, in your own words, what you think should
> be done.  Make a mini-proposal:  what pages will be added, etc.

I think Dave's proposal in http://markmail.org/thread/6ozfpfo5xcigyw6j 
is now moving things forward in the most reasonable way.

> 1) Treat PrOOoBox as a 3rd party distribution and include it in a page
> where we describe other 3rd party distributions.

Let's start from this one. This is something we need to do in any case, 
because in general we need to give much, much more visibility to third 
parties and 4.0 is the occasion to do so.

So in concrete, what we need to implement Dave's proposal is:

1) A description of PrOOoBox (two lines in English) from the PrOOoBox 
volunteers; send it in any form you wish, even here by e-mail, and it 
will be added to the "Available now" section of 
http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

2) A German version of http://www.openoffice.org/porting/ that will live 
at http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ or similar (improving the 
layout is not forbidden of course!); this can be provided by any 
German-speaking volunteer, it's not a lot of text.

3) Then the German site can publish news about PrOOoBox, linked to 
http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/ and everybody is happy.

> 2) (more work) make PrOOoBox be an official product of the project.
> If we do that then we can announce it via all the resources we have.

I'll be very happy if this happens, and surely the PrOOoBox volunteers 
can receive any guidance they need if they want to do this too. But the 
other option can definitely be done in a few days, while this one takes 
more time. So I suggest that we start with the other option and that, 
when that is online, we continue talking about this option (making 
PrOOoBox official) if the PrOOoBox volunteers want to do so.

Regards,
   Andrea.

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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 

> If it was developed, approved and released as an Apache OpenOffice
> product, then many things are possible.  For example, we could
> transfer the domain name prooo-box.org to Apache and host the website
> here.  We could put the strings into Pootle to make it easier for
> translators to translate the text into other languages.  We could put
> prominent links on our homepage or download page.
> 
> But this is a trade-off.  If you do it as an official release then
> everything about the product, from name to contents to logo, will be
> open for discussion by the community.   So if "creative control" over
> the CD is more important, then it is probably better to treat it as a
> 3rd party product.

Yes, I agree with you. These are all important aspects.


Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>
>
>> It is not clear to me if you do not understand what was said, or
>> whether you disagree with what was said.  Or maybe a combination of
>> both?
>
> My question is whether the outcome of the vote (Dave wrote: "Do we all agree?"), now need only wait.
> Or was the question of Dave, not at all meant as a vote?
>

That was not a vote.  A vote would be in  "[VOTE]" thread and would
say how long the vote remains open.   What Dave did was a form of lazy
consensus:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#LazyConsensus

>> 1) Treat PrOOoBox as a 3rd party distribution and include it in a page
>> where we describe other 3rd party distributions.
>
> Yes, that's the way I want to go.
>
>> 2) (more work) make PrOOoBox be an official product of the project.
>> If we do that then we can announce it via all the resources we have.
>
> That would be good, but that will require a lot of coordination work.
>

Yes.

> At the moment, perhaps even following questions:
>
> What content should be on the PrOOo box? e.g. also FireFox?
>
> If the PrOOo box would directly associated with AOO, eg on http://www.openoffice.org/de/prooo-box/, it would then also the site www.prooo-box.org give (with exactly the same content), and how would their status? Would then www.prooo-box.org no 3rd party?
>

If it was developed, approved and released as an Apache OpenOffice
product, then many things are possible.  For example, we could
transfer the domain name prooo-box.org to Apache and host the website
here.  We could put the strings into Pootle to make it easier for
translators to translate the text into other languages.  We could put
prominent links on our homepage or download page.

But this is a trade-off.  If you do it as an official release then
everything about the product, from name to contents to logo, will be
open for discussion by the community.   So if "creative control" over
the CD is more important, then it is probably better to treat it as a
3rd party product.

-Rob


>> Once you make a proposal, then wait 72-hours (lazy consensus) and if
>> there are no objections, then go ahead and do it.
>
> OK.
>
>> We don't need to vote. The important thing is that we all understand
>> the constraints about how we relate to 3rd parties and that we make
>> this clear on our website.
>
> Yes.
>
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 


> It is not clear to me if you do not understand what was said, or
> whether you disagree with what was said.  Or maybe a combination of
> both?

My question is whether the outcome of the vote (Dave wrote: "Do we all agree?"), now need only wait.
Or was the question of Dave, not at all meant as a vote?

> 1) Treat PrOOoBox as a 3rd party distribution and include it in a page
> where we describe other 3rd party distributions.

Yes, that's the way I want to go.

> 2) (more work) make PrOOoBox be an official product of the project.
> If we do that then we can announce it via all the resources we have.

That would be good, but that will require a lot of coordination work.

At the moment, perhaps even following questions:

What content should be on the PrOOo box? e.g. also FireFox?

If the PrOOo box would directly associated with AOO, eg on http://www.openoffice.org/de/prooo-box/, it would then also the site www.prooo-box.org give (with exactly the same content), and how would their status? Would then www.prooo-box.org no 3rd party?

> Once you make a proposal, then wait 72-hours (lazy consensus) and if
> there are no objections, then go ahead and do it.

OK.

> We don't need to vote. The important thing is that we all understand
> the constraints about how we relate to 3rd parties and that we make
> this clear on our website.

Yes.


Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
>> From: RGB ES [mailto:rgb.mldc@gmail.com]
>
>> I think that that was suggested since the beginning by Rob...
>> so yes, an
>> "oo.o/de/porting" site or similar is possible.
>
> All right, then I had not understood correctly.
>
>
> But please specifically, because *I* do not know exactly what to do currently:
>
> Must now be voted yet?
>
> Or we can directly start the website(s), as now discussed, edit?
>

It is not clear to me if you do not understand what was said, or
whether you disagree with what was said.  Or maybe a combination of
both?

It might help if you stated, in your own words, what you think should
be done.  Make a mini-proposal:  what pages will be added, etc.

No one can tell you what to do because there are two different
approaches that you can take:

1) Treat PrOOoBox as a 3rd party distribution and include it in a page
where we describe other 3rd party distributions.

or

2) (more work) make PrOOoBox be an official product of the project.
If we do that then we can announce it via all the resources we have.

Once you make a proposal, then wait 72-hours (lazy consensus) and if
there are no objections, then go ahead and do it.

We don't need to vote.  The important thing is that we all understand
the constraints about how we relate to 3rd parties and that we make
this clear on our website.

Regards,

-Rob



>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: RGB ES [mailto:rgb.mldc@gmail.com] 

> I think that that was suggested since the beginning by Rob... 
> so yes, an
> "oo.o/de/porting" site or similar is possible.

All right, then I had not understood correctly.


But please specifically, because *I* do not know exactly what to do currently:

Must now be voted yet?

Or we can directly start the website(s), as now discussed, edit?


Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by RGB ES <rg...@gmail.com>.
2013/6/22 Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>

> > From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>
>
> > In my very first post on the topic, I wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> yes, that's right. I had read that.
>
> > That was true then.  That is true now.
>
> This is not quite correct.
>
> The point is that Dave has suggested that there should be
> language-specific pages.
>
> In my opinion so for example:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/
>
> which is not the same as:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
>
>
> Can there be such sites or not? Dave had called to vote.
>

I think that that was suggested since the beginning by Rob... so yes, an
"oo.o/de/porting" site or similar is possible.

Regards
Ricardo



>
> > It us unfortunate that it
> > required such a long thread for it sink in.
>
> That's not a fair comment, _I try to like all here, only to do my best._
>
> But english is not my native language, and I am familiar with the rules of
> Apache does not look as good as you.
>
>
> Gretings,
> Jörg
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 


> In my very first post on the topic, I wrote:

> [...]

yes, that's right. I had read that.

> That was true then.  That is true now.  

This is not quite correct.

The point is that Dave has suggested that there should be language-specific pages.

In my opinion so for example:

http://www.openoffice.org/de/porting/

which is not the same as:

http://www.openoffice.org/porting/


Can there be such sites or not? Dave had called to vote.

> It us unfortunate that it
> required such a long thread for it sink in.

That's not a fair comment, _I try to like all here, only to do my best._

But english is not my native language, and I am familiar with the rules of Apache does not look as good as you.


Gretings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Am 22.06.2013 00:04, schrieb Rob Weir:

> 
> In my very first post on the topic, I wrote:
> 
> "So one solution discussed was to do similar to what we do with the
> main English pages with winPenPack.  We have a general page for 3rd
> party ports and distributions:
> 
> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
> 
> So it might be good to add info about PrOOo-Box to that page.  And
> then if you want, you could translate that entire page, or link to it."
> 
> That was true then.  That is true now.  It us unfortunate that it
> required such a long thread for it sink in.
> 

I disagree furthermore.

IMO it's ok to make a news entry about the box on the germanophone homepage.

Regards
Michael

Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>
>
>> I assume for #4 that you mean the news feed points to the ASF-hosted
>> page that lists 3rd party distributions, but not to the 3rd party page
>> directly.   That is my understanding, at least.
>>
>> It could say, for example, "PrOOo Box now released with support for
>> AOO 3.4.1.  See our ports and distributions page for details".
>>
>> That would be fine, IMHO.
>
> Yes, that would be possible.
>
>
> Rob, an honest word:
> I have taken care that the site is de current, and I know what German users want, _but I knew nothing of item 1 to 4_ (see Dave's mail) ... PLEASE consider that a "no" from you is a "no" for me, however, the attempt would help me to find a solution that will meet our (i mean the local German community) requirements for the de-website AND the rules of Apache have been a better way.
> A little help is sometimes better than just the citing of rules.
>
> Understandable?
>

In my very first post on the topic, I wrote:

"So one solution discussed was to do similar to what we do with the
main English pages with winPenPack.  We have a general page for 3rd
party ports and distributions:

http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

So it might be good to add info about PrOOo-Box to that page.  And
then if you want, you could translate that entire page, or link to it."

That was true then.  That is true now.  It us unfortunate that it
required such a long thread for it sink in.

Regards,

-Rob

>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
 

> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 


> I assume for #4 that you mean the news feed points to the ASF-hosted
> page that lists 3rd party distributions, but not to the 3rd party page
> directly.   That is my understanding, at least.
> 
> It could say, for example, "PrOOo Box now released with support for
> AOO 3.4.1.  See our ports and distributions page for details".
> 
> That would be fine, IMHO.

Yes, that would be possible.


Rob, an honest word:
I have taken care that the site is de current, and I know what German users want, _but I knew nothing of item 1 to 4_ (see Dave's mail) ... PLEASE consider that a "no" from you is a "no" for me, however, the attempt would help me to find a solution that will meet our (i mean the local German community) requirements for the de-website AND the rules of Apache have been a better way.
A little help is sometimes better than just the citing of rules.

Understandable?


Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Jun 21, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Dr. Michael Stehmann wrote:
>
>> Am 21.06.2013 17:06, schrieb Rob Weir:
>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 AM, RA Stehmann
>>> <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
>>>> Hi Rob,
>>>>
>>>> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
>>>>
>>>> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of the
>>>> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>>>
>>>> But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." isn't
>>>> any old third party.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We need to be fair.  Treating one 3rd party special is not fair.
>>
>> Treating equal things unequal isn't fair, but it's also unfair treating
>> unequal things equal. You have to make the decision, what's equal and
>> whd what's unequa and in what aspect. That's the sense of "suum cuique
>> tribuere".
>
> My recollection of the discussion was.
>
> (1) Have a 3rd party page.
>
> (2) Each language may have their own 3rd party page.
>
> (3) Each language can have their own news feed.
>
> (4) Each news item may link to a 3rd party page.
>
> Conclusion.
>
> DE page can have news about PrOOo and point to a link on the 3rd party page.
>
> Do we all agree?
>

I assume for #4 that you mean the news feed points to the ASF-hosted
page that lists 3rd party distributions, but not to the 3rd party page
directly.   That is my understanding, at least.

It could say, for example, "PrOOo Box now released with support for
AOO 3.4.1.  See our ports and distributions page for details".

That would be fine, IMHO.

I think a relevant fact for thinking about this is that there are a
number of corporations who contribute money and services to the ASF,
in order to keep it operating.  But we do not link to them on our home
page.  Instead we have a separate "sponsors" page that we use:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/thanks.html

I've never heard anyone offended by this practice.  We're not
insulting the companies that contribute to help the ASF.  But we don't
put up advertisements for 3rd parties on the homepage as a matter of
policy.

-Rob

> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>>
>>>> It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
>>>> still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
>>>> Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>>>
>>>> Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.
>>>>
>>>> So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage, making
>>>> clear, who's the distributor of that product.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'd be much happier if the German community listened to what I am
>>> saying and took steps to address the full issue. IMHO you need to add
>>> a page that gives equal access to all 3rd party ports and
>>> distributions, and not just favor a single one with a news
>>> announcement.
>>
>> see above.
>>
>> IMO you like to treat uneqal things equal.
>>
>> Making a page presenting third party products makes sense.
>>
>> But it don't makes sense, presenting all third party products in the
>> news. And it makes IMO sense presenting the box there.
>>
>>>
>>> If you then give announcements of updates to these distributions,
>>> whenever they occur, and do such announcements fairly, not for just a
>>> single 3rd party, then this might be OK.   So if you really want to
>>> move this forward I'd highly recommend creating and maintaining a
>>> German version of the porting page:
>>> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
>>>
>>
>> Doing one thing doesn't mean to drop another.
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 21, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Dr. Michael Stehmann wrote:

> Am 21.06.2013 17:06, schrieb Rob Weir:
>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 AM, RA Stehmann
>> <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
>>> Hi Rob,
>>> 
>>> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
>>> 
>>> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of the
>>> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>> 
>>> But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." isn't
>>> any old third party.
>>> 
>> 
>> We need to be fair.  Treating one 3rd party special is not fair.
> 
> Treating equal things unequal isn't fair, but it's also unfair treating
> unequal things equal. You have to make the decision, what's equal and
> whd what's unequa and in what aspect. That's the sense of "suum cuique
> tribuere".

My recollection of the discussion was.

(1) Have a 3rd party page.

(2) Each language may have their own 3rd party page.

(3) Each language can have their own news feed.

(4) Each news item may link to a 3rd party page.

Conclusion.

DE page can have news about PrOOo and point to a link on the 3rd party page.

Do we all agree?

Regards,
Dave

>> 
>>> It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
>>> still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
>>> Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>> 
>>> Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.
>>> 
>>> So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage, making
>>> clear, who's the distributor of that product.
>>> 
>> 
>> I'd be much happier if the German community listened to what I am
>> saying and took steps to address the full issue. IMHO you need to add
>> a page that gives equal access to all 3rd party ports and
>> distributions, and not just favor a single one with a news
>> announcement.
> 
> see above.
> 
> IMO you like to treat uneqal things equal.
> 
> Making a page presenting third party products makes sense.
> 
> But it don't makes sense, presenting all third party products in the
> news. And it makes IMO sense presenting the box there.
> 
>> 
>> If you then give announcements of updates to these distributions,
>> whenever they occur, and do such announcements fairly, not for just a
>> single 3rd party, then this might be OK.   So if you really want to
>> move this forward I'd highly recommend creating and maintaining a
>> German version of the porting page:
>> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
>> 
> 
> Doing one thing doesn't mean to drop another.
> 
> Regards
> Michael
> 
> 
> 


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Am 21.06.2013 17:06, schrieb Rob Weir:
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 AM, RA Stehmann
> <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
>>
>> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of the
>> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>
>> But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." isn't
>> any old third party.
>>
> 
> We need to be fair.  Treating one 3rd party special is not fair.

Treating equal things unequal isn't fair, but it's also unfair treating
unequal things equal. You have to make the decision, what's equal and
whd what's unequa and in what aspect. That's the sense of "suum cuique
tribuere".
> 
>> It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
>> still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
>> Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>>
>> Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.
>>
>> So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage, making
>> clear, who's the distributor of that product.
>>
> 
> I'd be much happier if the German community listened to what I am
> saying and took steps to address the full issue. IMHO you need to add
> a page that gives equal access to all 3rd party ports and
> distributions, and not just favor a single one with a news
> announcement.

see above.

IMO you like to treat uneqal things equal.

Making a page presenting third party products makes sense.

But it don't makes sense, presenting all third party products in the
news. And it makes IMO sense presenting the box there.

> 
> If you then give announcements of updates to these distributions,
> whenever they occur, and do such announcements fairly, not for just a
> single 3rd party, then this might be OK.   So if you really want to
> move this forward I'd highly recommend creating and maintaining a
> German version of the porting page:
> http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
> 

Doing one thing doesn't mean to drop another.

Regards
Michael

Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 AM, RA Stehmann
<an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.
>
> I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of the
> ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>
> But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." isn't
> any old third party.
>

We need to be fair.  Treating one 3rd party special is not fair.

> It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
> still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
> Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".
>
> Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.
>
> So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage, making
> clear, who's the distributor of that product.
>

I'd be much happier if the German community listened to what I am
saying and took steps to address the full issue. IMHO you need to add
a page that gives equal access to all 3rd party ports and
distributions, and not just favor a single one with a news
announcement.

If you then give announcements of updates to these distributions,
whenever they occur, and do such announcements fairly, not for just a
single 3rd party, then this might be OK.   So if you really want to
move this forward I'd highly recommend creating and maintaining a
German version of the porting page:
http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

-Rob

> Regards
> Michael
>

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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by RA Stehmann <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Hi Rob,

I can understand your concerns, but they aren't drasticly.

I'm with you, that we have to make clear, the Box isn't a product of the
ASF but distributed by the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".

But on the other hand the "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V.." isn't
any old third party.

It's a charitable german entity supporting Free office software. It's
still supporting Apache OpenOffice. The computer an the monitor at our
Fosdem stand were provided by "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..".

Disclaimer: I'm no member of that club, but know persons who are.

So IMO it's ok to put that news in the news line of the homepage, making
clear, who's the distributor of that product.

Regards
Michael

Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 3:34 AM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
> Hello Rob,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:28 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; Jörg Schmidt
>> Subject: Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Jörg Schmidt
>> <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > So far we had no one who takes care of updating the web
>> pages in the German community.
>> > Meanwhile, a new volunteer has, with Piotr, found that
>> makes this work. However, Piotr needs help commit himself so
>> far that he is not a committer.
>> >
>>
>> There was a discussion on this patch on the dev list.  I would have
>> cc'de Piotr but he didn't put his full name or contact information in
>> the patch comment.
>
> Piotr I will say that he should imagine on the dev list.
> Ok?
>

Thanks.


>> There was a concern over the link to the PrOOo-Box website.   Some of
>> us (including me) were concerned about putting advertisements like
>> that on an NL homepage.  As a non-profit we need to be fair and not
>> promote one 3rd party over another.
>
> Rob, that's not to understand the PrOOo box is the OpenOffice CD of the German community for over 8 years. The deutschgen users know this CD.
>
> Always all content and changes in PrOOo box in the community were discussed, the content of PrOOo of the community always was approved.
>
> We are also very happy to have taken into account all information of Apache, for example, currently a request by Andrea Pescetti and trademarks@apache.org.
>

This isn't a trademark issue.

> What is the problem?
>

The CD is not from the Apache OpenOffice project.  It was not reviewed
and approved for release by the project.  It is a 3rd party product.
The website says it is from "Verein Freies Office Deutschland e.V..":

http://www.prooo-box.org/

Of course, this doesn't mean it is a bad thing.  Personally I think it
is wonderful that this exists.  Just like I'm happy to see winPenPack
version of AOO.  But these are still 3rd party distributions.

And since they are third party distributions, from other
organizations, we need to be careful in how we refer to them on our
website.  The practice we've adopted for this is to list such
distributions (and ports) on a special page:

http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

The ensures fairness.  Everyone wants placement on the front page of
the website.  We get requests (to the private list) from companies on
a regular basis begging us to "partner" with them and looking for a
mention on the website.  We refuse them every time.

So a good solution would be to have a page that mentions all 3rd party
distributions of AOO and has a disclaimer like we have on the /porting
page:

"The following list of third-party party ports and distributions is
made available as a service to the community. The Apache OpenOffice
project does not officially endorse or maintain these packages"

So we are fair and we don't give special prominence to any single 3rd
party distribution.  We don't have favorites or "special relations"
with 3rd parties.

But once we have a page that lists all 3rd party distributions, then
we can promote that page on the home page.

Another solution would be to create the CD (the ISO image) as an
official publication of the project, and have it be reviewed and
approved by the PMC.  That would require additional work, reviewing
the license and notice of the additional material, checking in the
source of the artwork, etc.  But if approved for release it would get
far greater attention, and could be linked to right from our main
download page.


> Where is _this_ discussion? I could not find anything.
>
>
>
> AND let me say clearly, there is no special link to PrOOo box, there is only one news-Note!
>
> AND ...
>
> there are MANY, MANY other links to external resources [1], how else should do the website?
>
> The PrOOo box is essential for us in Germany, without the PrOOo box, we can not effectively work for end-users because they expect to make a full CD, created by project members.
>
> [1]
> for example:
> http://www.openoffice.org/de/foren.html
>

This isn't the de homepage.  Material on the homepage has special
prominence and is seen as being official.


> and the majority of these links is NOT run by project members - the PrOOo-box, however, is made for more than 8 years of project members from OpenOffice, in the past by members of OOo and current members of the German AOO community!
>

winPenPack is old 8 years old.  But we do not link to it from our homepage.


In any case I hope the issue is clear here and no one turns this into
another "Rob is oppressing the masses" argument.

Regards,

-Rob

>
>> I understand enough German to review patches for the de NL page, but
>> it would be better, of course, to have a native speaker.
>
> That's a good idea, I will contact you directly Oliver.
>
> (I had hoped would help the Raphael, which was also the suggestion of Marcus (on the German list), but unfortunately, Raphael seems to have no interest.)
>
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello Rob, 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 7:28 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org; Jörg Schmidt
> Subject: Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites
> 
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Jörg Schmidt 
> <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > So far we had no one who takes care of updating the web 
> pages in the German community.
> > Meanwhile, a new volunteer has, with Piotr, found that 
> makes this work. However, Piotr needs help commit himself so 
> far that he is not a committer.
> >
> 
> There was a discussion on this patch on the dev list.  I would have
> cc'de Piotr but he didn't put his full name or contact information in
> the patch comment.

Piotr I will say that he should imagine on the dev list.
Ok?

> There was a concern over the link to the PrOOo-Box website.   Some of
> us (including me) were concerned about putting advertisements like
> that on an NL homepage.  As a non-profit we need to be fair and not
> promote one 3rd party over another.

Rob, that's not to understand the PrOOo box is the OpenOffice CD of the German community for over 8 years. The deutschgen users know this CD.

Always all content and changes in PrOOo box in the community were discussed, the content of PrOOo of the community always was approved.

We are also very happy to have taken into account all information of Apache, for example, currently a request by Andrea Pescetti and trademarks@apache.org.

What is the problem?

Where is _this_ discussion? I could not find anything.



AND let me say clearly, there is no special link to PrOOo box, there is only one news-Note!

AND ...

there are MANY, MANY other links to external resources [1], how else should do the website?

The PrOOo box is essential for us in Germany, without the PrOOo box, we can not effectively work for end-users because they expect to make a full CD, created by project members.

[1]
for example:
http://www.openoffice.org/de/foren.html

and the majority of these links is NOT run by project members - the PrOOo-box, however, is made for more than 8 years of project members from OpenOffice, in the past by members of OOo and current members of the German AOO community!


> I understand enough German to review patches for the de NL page, but
> it would be better, of course, to have a native speaker.

That's a good idea, I will contact you directly Oliver.

(I had hoped would help the Raphael, which was also the suggestion of Marcus (on the German list), but unfortunately, Raphael seems to have no interest.)


Greetings,
Jörg


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Re: Can somebody please commit the update of the de-websites

Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> So far we had no one who takes care of updating the web pages in the German community.
> Meanwhile, a new volunteer has, with Piotr, found that makes this work. However, Piotr needs help commit himself so far that he is not a committer.
>

There was a discussion on this patch on the dev list.  I would have
cc'de Piotr but he didn't put his full name or contact information in
the patch comment.

There was a concern over the link to the PrOOo-Box website.   Some of
us (including me) were concerned about putting advertisements like
that on an NL homepage.  As a non-profit we need to be fair and not
promote one 3rd party over another.

So one solution discussed was to do similar to what we do with the
main English pages with winPenPack.  We have a general page for 3rd
party ports and distributions:

http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

So it might be good to add info about PrOOo-Box to that page.  And
then if you want, you could translate that entire page, or link to it.


> Rob had already commits recently (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-dev/201306.mbox/%3cCAP-ksoh5=eJqq1vCbeQFYou8CzEH4s=Soh5GQTmVoSwxqWVQGg@mail.gmail.com%3e), but currently stocking the work of Piotr because no one commits.
>
> We have already discussed the changes on the German mailing list, so maybe Raphael, Oliver Juergen or are ready to take on the commit?
> *In general, we need the next time relatively much support during committing as many websites need to be updated.*
>

I agree that we want changes to be committed quickly.  But that
requires good communications between the contributor and the committer
who checks in the code.  So a good idea would be to send a note to the
dev list, saying, "Hello, I'm Piotr.  I'm planning on making some
changes to the de website.  I'll need some help getting this
committed.  If anyone has a question regarding a patch, please send me
a note).

I understand enough German to review patches for the de NL page, but
it would be better, of course, to have a native speaker.

Regards,

-Rob

> Currently, the following changes should be committed properly to Piotr already at 10.06. had received:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-dev/201306.mbox/%3c20130610211727.1560B2173E1@cms.zones.apache.org%3e
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Jörg
>
>
>
>
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