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Posted to general@gump.apache.org by Thomas <ho...@hotpop.com> on 2005/06/28 00:07:05 UTC
Gump presentation SoC
Hi Adam and the rest of the group !
I took a look at the links to the documentation you sent me and a CLA is
on its way.
Adam you talked about implementing it with python, it will take me a lot
of time since i haven't used python before so I rather do it in Java.
But if you whant it in python fine I'll take the time and sit to to
learn python. Final result will take abit longer with python thats all.
The choice of language allso depends on what server we have.
So whats next?
I think I need a push in the back to get started so just hit me and we'r
off. What exactly do I need to get started, do i need svn or can I get
the code through cvs? I have never used svn before so a short
introduction would be nice.
how much of the Gump code do I need to know to do my task, Is it enough
to know what the database contains or do I need to integrate with the
rest of the program. Is the presentation a standalone webapplication? If
that is the case then I should only need to focus on the databasecontent
and the mening of it. As it is now I don't realy know what you whant me
to do and from reading some oldposts from the mailing list you don't
realy know either.
Looking forward to hear your opinions and a fun and educational time
with summer of code.
regards
Thomas
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Adam R. B. Jack wrote:
> Folks, please feel free to chip in your comments/reservations and
> perspectives on all of these to help Thomas decide.
I suggest trying dynagump first. If it turns out that Thomas isn't able
to get productive using dynagump, that's a sign that dynagump isn't a
good idea (after all we want to make it easy to do this development!)
and we can take a look at some other options.
Based on my understanding of Thomas' background, something servlet-based
would be next up on the list. We can run that alongside dynagump as part
of the same codebase (dynagump is servlet-based as well, after all), and
perhaps integrate the two in some way.
*I* think python is undervalued for webapp development and there's no
reason it can't work well. But I also think that java is the most mature
webapp technology out there and cocoon is one of the best webapp
frameworks out there (despite me not having much fun using it) so it'd
be insane not to try and use it.
cheers,
Leo
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Thomas wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
>
>
>>On 18-07-2005 15:33, "Thomas" <ho...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>If I don't get around this cocoon problems I have I'll start a new
>>>presentation application (not dyngump) with J2EE and Struts.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I'll chuck in 2 cents: I don't want "J2EE". Servlets+Struts+other stuff like
>>velocity is potentially nice, but please no EJB or JNDI or any of the other
>>J2EE stack. Most of it is crap :-)
>>
>>
>>
>
> If i go with struts it will be very simple Servelts+struts thats about
> it I hope to be able not use any other framwork for the database
> comunication but if I get a lot of protest there from you or other that
> works with Gump, I'll use a framwork for that to (Hybernate).
>
>
>>>like to hear what you have to say, if I missunderstud something with
>>>cocoon or if I'm just giving up to easy. But I want to get som results
>>>now and I feel that cocoon is one step to big to take at the moment to
>>>get where I whant.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Ok. I'd appreciate if you could go into some more detail (and a little more
>>concretely) on what you tried to do with dynagump that you were unable to
>>get to, what you tried to get there, and how you figured out what to try,
>>etc. That'll be very useful feedback to the cocoon people, and it means you
>>won't have "wasted" your time :-)
>>
>>
>
> The thing that I got stuck on with cocoon is when it gets abit more
> complicated, create generators and more custome stuff. I have no
> problems when it comes to communicating with the database take out rows,
> update, add, the basic stuff. The problems comes when I want to do
> something with the data that I get.
> No problems on presenting the data writing xslt's and generating pages
> from xml files. That part I think works porfectly and is the reason why
> I whan't to lear more about cocoon. But when you whant to costumize the
> webapp abit more like generators I'm lost. The level of knoledge you
> need to proceed with that is huge and the tutorials often miss parts
> like filenames of files that are created and wich files he is working on
> (editing). Small things that is so important when you are new to things
> like a compleat framework.
> Something concrete is for example you get a value from the database and
> you whant to multiply it with another value that you also get from the db.
>
> To me it sounds like I have missed something essential.
>
> If I have missed somthing that makes me go Haha I might go with cocoon
> but as it is now cocoon is taking to much time to learn for me to make
> some progres before the summer of code is over.
Good points and I don't have the energy/time to fill that teaching gap,
I'm afraid.
I don't mind if you go Struts+Hibernate, but at least, keep the html
templates that of the current dynagump.
--
Stefano.
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Thomas <ho...@hotpop.com>.
Leo Simons wrote:
>On 18-07-2005 15:33, "Thomas" <ho...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>
>>If I don't get around this cocoon problems I have I'll start a new
>>presentation application (not dyngump) with J2EE and Struts.
>>
>>
>
>I'll chuck in 2 cents: I don't want "J2EE". Servlets+Struts+other stuff like
>velocity is potentially nice, but please no EJB or JNDI or any of the other
>J2EE stack. Most of it is crap :-)
>
>
>
If i go with struts it will be very simple Servelts+struts thats about
it I hope to be able not use any other framwork for the database
comunication but if I get a lot of protest there from you or other that
works with Gump, I'll use a framwork for that to (Hybernate).
>>like to hear what you have to say, if I missunderstud something with
>>cocoon or if I'm just giving up to easy. But I want to get som results
>>now and I feel that cocoon is one step to big to take at the moment to
>>get where I whant.
>>
>>
>
>Ok. I'd appreciate if you could go into some more detail (and a little more
>concretely) on what you tried to do with dynagump that you were unable to
>get to, what you tried to get there, and how you figured out what to try,
>etc. That'll be very useful feedback to the cocoon people, and it means you
>won't have "wasted" your time :-)
>
>
The thing that I got stuck on with cocoon is when it gets abit more
complicated, create generators and more custome stuff. I have no
problems when it comes to communicating with the database take out rows,
update, add, the basic stuff. The problems comes when I want to do
something with the data that I get.
No problems on presenting the data writing xslt's and generating pages
from xml files. That part I think works porfectly and is the reason why
I whan't to lear more about cocoon. But when you whant to costumize the
webapp abit more like generators I'm lost. The level of knoledge you
need to proceed with that is huge and the tutorials often miss parts
like filenames of files that are created and wich files he is working on
(editing). Small things that is so important when you are new to things
like a compleat framework.
Something concrete is for example you get a value from the database and
you whant to multiply it with another value that you also get from the db.
To me it sounds like I have missed something essential.
If I have missed somthing that makes me go Haha I might go with cocoon
but as it is now cocoon is taking to much time to learn for me to make
some progres before the summer of code is over.
regards
Thomas
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On 18-07-2005 15:33, "Thomas" <ho...@hotpop.com> wrote:
> If I don't get around this cocoon problems I have I'll start a new
> presentation application (not dyngump) with J2EE and Struts.
I'll chuck in 2 cents: I don't want "J2EE". Servlets+Struts+other stuff like
velocity is potentially nice, but please no EJB or JNDI or any of the other
J2EE stack. Most of it is crap :-)
> like to hear what you have to say, if I missunderstud something with
> cocoon or if I'm just giving up to easy. But I want to get som results
> now and I feel that cocoon is one step to big to take at the moment to
> get where I whant.
Ok. I'd appreciate if you could go into some more detail (and a little more
concretely) on what you tried to do with dynagump that you were unable to
get to, what you tried to get there, and how you figured out what to try,
etc. That'll be very useful feedback to the cocoon people, and it means you
won't have "wasted" your time :-)
Cheers,
Leo
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Thomas <ho...@hotpop.com>.
Hi Stefano!
I have taken a look at cocoon but find it kind of dificult to keep the
things apart. I can't say that I get it all but from what I have red and
understand the sql code is in the xml document with the content. Logic
can be implemented in alot of different ways, java-script, xslt, and a
costum generator.
Is this right ???
My problem is that it gets kind of messy in the xml files where sql
statements and content is mixed. Also if I whant to do some logic on it
I have to make my own generator. I don't doubt that cocoon is realy good
once you know it. As it is know just figured out the basic pipelines
properly and find it to be a realy good content manage framework at
least. And if I scratch the surfice abit more I'll find the good things
about cocoon.
If I don't get around this cocoon problems I have I'll start a new
presentation application (not dyngump) with J2EE and Struts.
like to hear what you have to say, if I missunderstud something with
cocoon or if I'm just giving up to easy. But I want to get som results
now and I feel that cocoon is one step to big to take at the moment to
get where I whant.
regards
Thomas
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Thomas wrote:
> Stefano Some questions for you about cocoon.
Sure.
> I have just poked around abit but what I find mostly is "look at the
> examples". That is a good way to learn if you know some basic stuff.
Yep, agreed.
> How
> dose the structure of the application looklike where to put files and
> folders ??
well, first of all, cocoon is, if you wish, a huge servlet. So, it looks
like just any other j2ee webapp with a servlet container around.
dynagump is "prepackaged" with jetty running a cocoon webapp, but it's
really two things (and one could think about running dynagump in tomcat,
if one wishes to do so) I like jetty better because it's smaller and
easier to configure/embed and starts/stops faster.
The cocoon specificities are mostly:
1) webapp/sitemap.xmap is where the pipelines are defined and where the
URL -> pipeline processing takes place (NOTE: sitemaps can nest other
sitemaps, so their location could vary and you can have multiple of them)
2) webapp/WEB-INF/cocoon.xconf is where the cocoon configurations
remain. You should not have to do anything there.
> Remeber that I'm comming from J2EE where every config file
> and folder has it's place I'm guessing it's the same here. What config
> files do I need to know about and what is ehcache-2. The ehcache-2 is
> never alive and all I get is an Error saying so. Thats my first error in
> geting dynagump to work.
ehcache is the caching engine. cocoon is pretty agressive on caching.
you might want to tweak the cocoon.xconf settings on caching if that
still causes you troubles.
> One step at the time I'm on my way.
Awesome.
Note: dynagump is not the latest and greatest cocoon, so maybe there
could be bugs that are already fixed. If you sound some others let me know.
--
Stefano.
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Thomas <ho...@hotpop.com>.
Hi every one !
So I'm setingup Gump and I think I'm done... The problem now is to setup
some configuration that will generate good data... a litle help with
that would be nice... just something that gives me different stuff that
can be applied to different use-cases.
More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the
application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from
the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it
in anny special way.
Stefano Some questions for you about cocoon.
I have just poked around abit but what I find mostly is "look at the
examples". That is a good way to learn if you know some basic stuff. How
dose the structure of the application looklike where to put files and
folders ?? Remeber that I'm comming from J2EE where every config file
and folder has it's place I'm guessing it's the same here. What config
files do I need to know about and what is ehcache-2. The ehcache-2 is
never alive and all I get is an Error saying so. Thats my first error in
geting dynagump to work.
One step at the time I'm on my way.
Thanks for your help
/Thomas
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Thomas wrote:
> So I'm setingup Gump and I think I'm done... The problem now is to setup
> some configuration that will generate good data... a litle help with
> that would be nice... just something that gives me different stuff that
> can be applied to different use-cases.
There is now code to generate lots of data :-). I've also put a dump of
some data I generated with that code in SVN, so even if you don't get
the python beastie running you should be able to use that. That data was
generated as follows on my machine:
cd /home/lsimons/svn/gump/branches/Gump3/
mysql -u gump -p gump < gumpdb/src/sql/gump3-database-definition.sql
./gump run
--workspace=/home/lsimons/svn/gump/branches/Gump3/metadata/workspace.xml
./gump run
--workspace=/home/lsimons/svn/gump/branches/Gump3/fixture/metadata/workspace.xml
(in addition setting the --databasepassword parameter to ./gump).
We'll probably try to get you some really big database dumps of more
realistic sample data (right now its just two runs on a single machine
on the same day over about half a dozen projects, the db will have
hundreds or even thousands of runs over hundreds of projects on half a
dozen different machines over the course of several years) once you need
'em.
cheers!
Leo
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Thomas <ho...@hotpop.com>.
Leo Simons wrote:
>Thomas wrote:
>
>
>>Hi every one !
>>
>>
>
>Hi Thomas!
>
>
>
>>More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the
>>application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from
>>the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it
>>in anny special way.
>>
>>
>
>That has got to be the most common error or rather warning cocoon spits
>out. It should be able to work without that file. What do you see when
>visiting http://localhost:8080/?
>
>
>
Some how it works now, Don't know what I have done It might have been
the Catalogmangare file I don't know? Before I got IlligalStateException
I think it was generated because the eh-cache-2 wasn't alive... thats
what the extended message said. But know it all works.
>cheers,
>
>LSD
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> Thomas wrote:
>
> > More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the
> > application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from
> > the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it
> > in anny special way.
>
> That has got to be the most common error or rather warning cocoon spits
> out. It should be able to work without that file. What do you see when
> visiting http://localhost:8080/?
Ignore the CatalogManager.properties message. It is for adding your
own catalog to look up extra DTDs for xml source documents, to save
network trips and get a local copy.
You can have an optional CatalogManager.properties in your project
which can be empty and thus keep the thing quiet.
What version of Cocoon is this?
-David
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Thomas wrote:
> Hi every one !
Hi Thomas!
> More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the
> application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from
> the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it
> in anny special way.
That has got to be the most common error or rather warning cocoon spits
out. It should be able to work without that file. What do you see when
visiting http://localhost:8080/?
cheers,
LSD
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Thomas <ho...@hotpop.com>.
Hi every one !
So I'm setingup Gump and I think I'm done... The problem now is to setup
some configuration that will generate good data... a litle help with
that would be nice... just something that gives me different stuff that
can be applied to different use-cases.
More I have taken a look at the dynaGump but can't get it to woork the
application is missing a Catalogmanager.properties. I've copied one from
the samples of the cocoon source but don't know if I need configure it
in anny special way.
Stefano Some questions for you about cocoon.
I have just poked around abit but what I find mostly is "look at the
examples". That is a good way to learn if you know some basic stuff. How
dose the structure of the application looklike where to put files and
folders ?? Remeber that I'm comming from J2EE where every config file
and folder has it's place I'm guessing it's the same here. What config
files do I need to know about and what is ehcache-2. The ehcache-2 is
never alive and all I get is an Error saying so. Thats my first error in
geting dynagump to work.
One step at the time I'm on my way.
Thanks for your help
/Thomas
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Adam R. B. Jack <aj...@apache.org> wrote:
> To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others
> I've heard discussed.)
>
> - Java JSP/Struts. - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on
> this, he feels it is worth
> evaluating.)
> - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth
> evaluating.)
> - PHP (why not?)
because we'd have to install (security) updates too often for PHP 8-)
Seriously, I don't see any reason to rule out PHP completely and would
even throw in ASP.NET on mod_mono if Thomas is interested.
Personally I'm currently stretched too thin to commit to anything. I
do have quite a bit Struts experience and some ASP.NET/mod_mono. I've
never used any of the three other technologies you've listed.
> I know this is needs to be focused project, with fixed time
> allocated to it. As such, these last two thoughts
[webapp used for more than just presentation and creation of permanent
URLs, different output formats]
> are probably overkill. Getting the data presented to the users is
> the only (first) goal.
+1
Stefan
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Adam R. B. Jack wrote:
> - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it is worth
> evaluating.)
I spent several days designing the Gump3 architecture with Leo last year
at EuroFoo. One of the requirements for the new design was SoC, where
SoC here normally means "Separation of Concerns" and not "Summer of Code ;-)
SoC means "allow different people to do work in parallel", but also
"allow different systems to interconnect" and avoid stagnation.
This is why gump3 separated the data production side (running the
programs) from the data consumption side (presenting the acquired data).
I wrote a thing called DynaGump, based on Cocoon
(http://cocoon.apache.org/), cloned the Mozilla html pages and mounted
the whole thing.
Then I stopped and started working on the data model for the relational
database that would host the data.
Dynagump can be found inside the Gump3 branch, most specifically at
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/gump/branches/Gump3/dynagump/
you can also find a README file that explains what to do, and pointers
to the various places you need to look at to understand what to do.
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/gump/branches/Gump3/dynagump/README.txt
- o -
The only think I'm asking is that you fire that and evaluate it. If
there is anything that you find useful or appealing, use it, build on it
or even rip it off. Don't worry about hurting people's feelings, we are
not attached to code or technologies, we want the functionality.
I used cocoon because, well, that's my hammer for web publishing, but if
you find that something else suites you better, you are more than
welcome to change direction and without even giving too much
explaination, just tell us that your gut felt it was better to go
somewhere else and you did, that would be just fine.
I repeat: this is your task and you are the boss. What we the
functionality, we want to see Gump3 dump data in the database and
DynaGump (or whatever you want to call it) show it to the users. Add a
few history charts, some pretty HTML (feel free to rip the one in
DynaGump if you wish to do so) in the mix and you'll see very happy
campers around here, no matter what technology makes it work.
Ah, and if you decide to go the cocoon way and need explainations or
suggestions or a shoulder to cry on, don't be shy to ask me even privately.
--
Stefano.
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
[your clock is screwed ;-)]
Thomas wrote:
> Some input from me about what I think of what technoligy to use. This is
> just my opinion and of corse I'm willing to learn something new if thats
> what you think would work the best.
I think what works best for you works best for us.
>>On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Adam R. B. Jack wrote:
>>
>>>To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others
>>>I've
>>>heard discussed.)
>>>
>>> - Java JSP/Struts.
>>
> Java and JSP + Struts I know well... the easy way to get a result. Java
> is my main programming language and I personaly think I know it well
> regarding webapplication in Java, J2EE and struts.
Cool.
>>> - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it
>>>is worth
>>>evaluating.)
>>
> Cocoon: I have never used it but sounds like I can get som help from
> Stefano. So that might work for me to.
Great.
>>> - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth
>>>evaluating.)
>>
> mod_python: I have never used python, so that sound like a challange but
> challanges is just a good thing... It all depends on what I need to have
> finished at the end of summer of code.
Learning python is easy (especially if you know java) but you don't have
to. Gump3 is architected in a way so that different modules can be built
with different languages, the idea was to capture more people that way.
But I suggest you start reading the excellent "dive into python"
(http://diveintopython.org/) just to get a sense of what it is.
>>> - PHP (why not?)
>>
> PHP: I have done som work with PHP. But I rather prefer some type of
> Java or none script language before PHP.
Nice to hear that ;-)
>>To toss another idea out there...
>>
>> I highly recommend Ruby on Rails - it's elegant, clean, and ties
>>to a DB easily.
>>
>
>
>>Erik
>
> Ruby on Rails: never used it never even programed in Ruby. But the
> same gose here as for mod_python.
I heard good things on RoR, but nobody here knows Ruby and we are trying
to increase the community size not decrease it ;-)
> To summarize this. I prefer a java based language and framework. The
> advantage of using mod_python is that alot of other thing in gump and
> around gump is written in python. I don't have anything against lerning
> something new but the result will take abit longer and would not be as
> good implemented as if had been Javabased.
>
> I don't know what and how much I need to do compleat the summer of code
> project. My intention and hope is that I can keep on working on this and
> be a part of the Gump project even after the summer of code.
We would hope that to be the case too.
So, make yourself at home, follow Leo's excellent directions and let us
know how you feel when you get there.
> For the moment I'm setting Gump and I'm trying to get it to work. I'm
> also trying to get an over view of the database and what all the tables is.
Great.
--
Stefano.
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Thomas <ho...@hotpop.com>.
Some input from me about what I think of what technoligy to use. This is
just my opinion and of corse I'm willing to learn something new if thats
what you think would work the best.
>
> On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Adam R. B. Jack wrote:
>
>> To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others
>> I've
>> heard discussed.)
>>
>> - Java JSP/Struts.
>
Java and JSP + Struts I know well... the easy way to get a result. Java
is my main programming language and I personaly think I know it well
regarding webapplication in Java, J2EE and struts.
>> - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it
>> is worth
>> evaluating.)
>
Cocoon: I have never used it but sounds like I can get som help from
Stefano. So that might work for me to.
>> - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth
>> evaluating.)
>
mod_python: I have never used python, so that sound like a challange but
challanges is just a good thing... It all depends on what I need to have
finished at the end of summer of code.
>> - PHP (why not?)
>
PHP: I have done som work with PHP. But I rather prefer some type of
Java or none script language before PHP.
>
> To toss another idea out there...
>
> I highly recommend Ruby on Rails - it's elegant, clean, and ties
> to a DB easily.
>
> Erik
Ruby on Rails: never used it never even programed in Ruby. But the
same gose here as for mod_python.
To summarize this. I prefer a java based language and framework. The
advantage of using mod_python is that alot of other thing in gump and
around gump is written in python. I don't have anything against lerning
something new but the result will take abit longer and would not be as
good implemented as if had been Javabased.
I don't know what and how much I need to do compleat the summer of code
project. My intention and hope is that I can keep on working on this and
be a part of the Gump project even after the summer of code.
For the moment I'm setting Gump and I'm trying to get it to work. I'm
also trying to get an over view of the database and what all the tables is.
/Thomas
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Re: Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Adam R. B. Jack wrote:
> To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others
> I've
> heard discussed.)
>
> - Java JSP/Struts.
> - Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it
> is worth
> evaluating.)
> - mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth
> evaluating.)
> - PHP (why not?)
To toss another idea out there...
I highly recommend Ruby on Rails - it's elegant, clean, and ties
to a DB easily.
Erik
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Gump3 Presentation -- choice of technology
Posted by "Adam R. B. Jack" <aj...@apache.org>.
Thomas et al,
We need to pick a technology to use to display the contents of a database
via a webapp. We are in the "fortunate" position of having more technologies
available to use than we could wave a stick at. Clearly we could do the job
with all of them. Let's explore them and come to a mechanism for you to
decide which you want to use.
I won't determine how you evaluate the 'best' choice, that will be your
choice. At the end of the day much of OSS comes down to "scratch what
itches" which is often translated to "you do what you want, how you want,
when you want 'cos nobody is paying you/tellign you what to do". I know this
Google SoC case is slightly different, but the effective is there.
Some *personal* thoughts that might factor into things are (1) which would
you find the most fun (2) which would you learn the most doing (3) which
would you benefit the most from learnng (4) which would you think you'd
like to use again after this project. Added to that (1) which is the best
fit to the requirements (2) which is the best fit to the community
(Gump/ASF) (3) which is most likely to be maintained when you stop working
on it [there is life after any committer] (4) what is the best fit for
users (least resistence to install/use.)
Again, we aren't trying to to be too "academic" -- we do want deliverable
results -- but much at ASF (and especially Gump) is about the long haul,
with the focus being on the community to support the code, not the code
alone.
To my knowledge here are the best known candiates (plus some others I've
heard discussed.)
- Java JSP/Struts.
- Cocoon (Stefano has spent significant time on this, he feels it is worth
evaluating.)
- mod_python (Leo has spent some time on this, he feels it is worth
evaluating.)
- PHP (why not?)
Clearly each of these (and there are plenty others) have
strengths/weaknesses, and I don't profess to know them all. To help you make
some determinations, here are some known requirements/thoughts for your
project.
- Gump3 presentation is simply about getting the data from the database onto
the screen. That said, there are lofty goals for it (and Stefano has great
insights here) that might lead to "charting" and/or "graphics/graphs".
Visualizing data isn't about dumping tables to the screen, but allowing a
humans to easily navigate an interpret. (Do yourself a favour and search the
archives for things marked [RT] in the subject). So, I suspect the
technology will want good visualization support.
- I could see the Gump3 webapp becoming a "first point of contact" w/ users,
so I could see it becoming much more than presenation. For example it might
need to go get output files for folks (for folks who don't have disk space
to store these in the DB.) Heck, it might become a front end for folks to
schedule runs/builds and/or kick of metadata parse checks. So, I suspect the
technology needs to be easily integrated.
- I could see this output of the webapp being data to reference (real-time
and historically) with URLs having a permanance to them. I could see us
generating RSS/Atom feeds from the webapp. I could see projects referencing
their "Gump Info" on their home page, and/or behind a logo. As such, I think
the technology needs full control over it's URL space.
That all said, I know this is needs to be focused project, with fixed time
allocated to it. As such, these last two thoughts are probably overkill.
Getting the data presented to the users is the only (first) goal.
Folks, please feel free to chip in your comments/reservations and
perspectives on all of these to help Thomas decide.
regards,
Adam
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Re: Gump presentation SoC
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Thomas wrote:
> Hi Adam and the rest of the group !
Hi Thomas!
> Adam you talked about implementing it with python, it will take me a lot
> of time since i haven't used python before so I rather do it in Java.
Fine as well :-)
We want to have you as productive as possible. If you can be productive
working in a certain way, chances are other people can too, which is a
Good Thing(tm) as it means more potential gump developers! I'm hoping
you'll be able to get deep enough into Apache Cocoon (more below) to be
productive. If not, consider a python-based webapp (or something purely
servlet-based) as an alternative. I've stubbed out a little in that
direction as well.
> But if you whant it in python fine I'll take the time and sit to to
> learn python. Final result will take abit longer with python thats all.
> The choice of language allso depends on what server we have.
>
> So whats next?
Did you get something to run on your machine yet? Did you get any
instructions for getting "dynagump" running? (I'm afraid we haven't been
paying very close attention so far)
Anyway, go get
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/gump/branches/Gump3/
from SVN, take a look at
http://wiki.apache.org/gump/VmgumpConfig
for some of the things you might need to get through to run something,
and go take a look at the stuff in
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/gump/branches/Gump3/dynagump/
In particular, if you get it to run properly (its jetty+cocoon),
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/gump/branches/Gump3/dynagump/webapp/results/projects.xsp
ends up as
http://localhost:8080/results/projects.xsp
or something similar.
> I think I need a push in the back to get started so just hit me and we'r
> off.
Go get yourself a running dynagump. Play with it. Read through some of
the codebase. Try and learn a little about Apache Cocoon. Holler if you
run into problems. Try and see if you can put in some SQL queries
somewhere that result in some output. Generate a patch ("svn help diff")
and send the results to this mailing list so people (eg Stefano :-)) can
give some tips. Try and see if you can put some simple "workflow" in
there, for example getting from the "projects" list to a "build details"
page.
You can get a feel for the problem and how dynagump may help solve it
and hopefully you can find your way to the next steps. I think the
"workflow" aspect of gump is real interesting. We generate *a lot* of
data (take a look at Gump2 output:
http://vmgump.apache.org/gump/public/
) and presenting it well is a big challenge...
> What exactly do I need to get started, do i need svn or can I get
> the code through cvs? I have never used svn before so a short
> introduction would be nice.
SVN is real easy :-)
There's a great book about it
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
here's how to do a checkout:
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/ch03s04.html
> how much of the Gump code do I need to know to do my task, Is it enough
> to know what the database contains or do I need to integrate with the
> rest of the program.
I think you'll probably need to take a look at some python code to get
some context about what the stuff in the database *means*.
> Is the presentation a standalone webapplication?
Dynagump is.
> If
> that is the case then I should only need to focus on the databasecontent
> and the mening of it. As it is now I don't realy know what you whant me
> to do and from reading some oldposts from the mailing list you don't
> realy know either.
Basically "gump2" generates this:
http://vmgump.apache.org/gump/public/
as static HTML every day. The results from the previous day are thrown
away. Gump3 is not going to generate that stuff, but instead dynamically
serve up the same information, plus a lot more, as a web application.
For this web application, a "stub" or "proof of concept" exists
("dynagump"). We want you to turn it from a proof of concept into
something useful. At a minimum this webapp will present the same info as
Gump2, but there's many more possibilities.
I'm certainly not expecting you'll "get everything right" in designing
this thing. It's a *big* task. Mind you, we've been thinking about this
problem for over 2 years and we don't have something shiny or fancy at
all yet.
Gump3 is an active codebase under "heavy" development. Based on your
ideas on this, the workflows and queries and web pages you design, we're
probably going to be making lots of changes to the python code and the
database schema, discovering and fixing bugs, etc. So we're putting you
right in the middle of things :-)
> Looking forward to hear your opinions and a fun and educational time
> with summer of code.
Woohooh! Do keep asking questions :-)
cheers,
Leo
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Re: Gump presentation SoC
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Adam R. B. Jack wrote:
> BTW: (all) I've also mentioned that Cocoon was likely not our favoured
> approach, since we don't have cycles to help you with it.
There was a working cocoon implementation of Dynagump, I don't know the
status for that.
I *am* interested in helping that succeed, rather than seeing a new
refactored version of a presentation framework for gump in python.
Cocoon might be a little steep learning curve, but I've done a lot
already, it just needs a bunch of SQL queries against the data that gump
generated (since gump3 was not generating any data at that time).
--
Stefano, beating himself in the head for this.
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Re: Gump presentation SoC
Posted by "Adam R. B. Jack" <aj...@apache.org>.
Thomas,
> Adam you talked about implementing it with python, it will take me a lot
> of time since i haven't used python before so I rather do it in Java.
> But if you whant it in python fine I'll take the time and sit to to
> learn python. Final result will take abit longer with python thats all.
I mentioned that Leo was looking at a mod_python implementation, and liking
what he saw. I was just floating the idea, to see how interested you are.
Basically, we want this project to "succeed", but success in OSS comes in
many colours. ;) What we mean is that sometimes learning something new, and
making an "ok" attempt at it is better for the community than doing
something perfect, yet rote. (Some folks say the best OSS project is the
great idea w/ the poor implementation, 'cos it attracts more community.)
Would a mod_python plug-in be more fun? Maybe, that depends upon your
interests. Would it have more bugs? Certainly, the framework is much
younger. Which would be better for the Gump community, or ASF community, or
you? Who knows, only time would tell. Sorry, I guess we are seeing that I'm
going to be one of those mentors that poses more questions than answers. ;-)
That all said, I'm really not pushing either approach. The Java appoach is
good, and since it is easier (on you), it might dig deeper into how we can
extract data from the Gump results. Basically, I'm (1) open to ideas from
other Gumpers (2) willing to let you pick what you are most comfortable
with. Finally, don't feel pressure on this ... we aren't looking for some
fixed result, some perfectly polished webapp, we are all looking to learn
from this endeavour & see where it leads us all.
BTW: (all) I've also mentioned that Cocoon was likely not our favoured
approach, since we don't have cycles to help you with it.
> The choice of language allso depends on what server we have.
We have access to a number, and folks run Gump on whatever servers they
like. What do you have locally to work on? Me, I use W2K others use Linux or
Mac, etc.
> So whats next?
> I think I need a push in the back to get started so just hit me and we'r
> off. What exactly do I need to get started, do i need svn or can I get
> the code through cvs? I have never used svn before so a short
> introduction would be nice.
ASF is migrating from CVS to SVN. Some Gump metadata remains in CVS, but
won't for much longer. As such, please learn/use SVN.
Using the client against ASF code (to get a local copy you can't commit
back) is easy [V1]. To learn more about SVN, should you need/want, try [V2].
The Gump3 code is here [V3].
[V1] http://www.apache.org/dev/version-control.html
[V2] http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
[V3] http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/gump/branches/Gump3/
> how much of the Gump code do I need to know to do my task, Is it enough
> to know what the database contains or do I need to integrate with the
> rest of the program. Is the presentation a standalone webapplication? If
> that is the case then I should only need to focus on the databasecontent
> and the mening of it. As it is now I don't realy know what you whant me
> to do and from reading some oldposts from the mailing list you don't
> realy know either.
We'd like you to focus on the database content, not how it gets populated,
because one of the main thrusts behind Gump3 is to leverage the DB
separation. Gump2 produce static HTML as it runs, and hence during a run
(for many hours) the "output" is inconsistent (part last run, part this
run.) We want to be able to query the data at any time, getting consistent
results. There will be different "use cases" for the data, and although we
can't predict them all, we can some. Some folks just want to know why their
project broke, to fix it. Some will want to know about projects stability
(over time) so do some historical data mining. Some will want to know about
interactions between projects, "who uses my project", etc. We might want to
list these use cases & plan for them.
We will be improving the database schema with feedback from you, as you show
us what is possible with what is there. What is there is pretty simple, but
the main 'players' are in the database, so you can list projects,
dependencies, and so forth. There is plenty to get started with.
I'm sure you'll learn some of how Gump3 works from running it, and you'll
want to run it locally so it produces a local DB of data for you to work on.
You'll want Apache HTTPD v2 [R2], I'm sure. Getting things started will take
a little time in itself, so do start that.
[R1] http://wiki.apache.org/gump/GumpThree
[R2] http://httpd.apache.org/
Please look at the static HTML pages that Gump2 generates [H1], specifically
the statistics [H2] and [H3] cross reference pages and collect your thoughts
on how a dynamic approach (data mining verse data overload) would be better.
Having smaller/tighter pages (not pages stuffed w/ extra info) is the first
win. Being able to calculate (query) a lot of the stats/cross-references is
another win. Allowing folks to "easily navigate Gumpdom" through the webapp
is the key.
[H1] http://vmgump.apache.org/gump/public/buildLog.html
[H2] http://vmgump.apache.org/gump/public/gump_stats/index.html
[H3] http://vmgump.apache.org/gump/public/gump_xref/index.html
Please provide a Wiki page for this project, and we'll take some of this
there. I'm sure we all have a list of design requirements/constraints & they
are best summarized on a wiki.
Again, glad to have you on board.
regards,
Adam
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