The Future of Couch: [Was: The future of couchapps]

[Miles Fidelman <mf...@meetinghouse.net>]

I just spent a little time comparing "Cloudant Local" with CouchDB - and 
in addition to ongoing support for CouchApps, it seems like Cloudant 
Local supports geospatial functions as well.  Which leads me to wonder 
two things:
- Whatever happened to geoCouch?
- What's the general direction of the CouchDB ecosystem.  Are we seeing 
Cloudant diverge from Couch, with IBM-supported features not making 
their way back into the open source version of Couch?

Miles Fidelman


Joan Touzet wrote:
> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>
> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
> list.
>
> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>
> Best regards,
> Joan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>> feature.
>>
>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>> users
>> and not only.
>>
>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.  Otherwise CouchApps
>> will
>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>> what
>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>
>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>
>> --
>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>
>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>
>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>
>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>
>>> Johs
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>> won't get
>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>> them were
>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>> of
>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>> people
>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>> people
>>>>> don't like it
>>>> Watch me.


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra

Re: The Future of Couch: [Was: The future of couchapps]

[Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>]

On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 4:26 AM, Miles Fidelman
<mf...@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
> - Whatever happened to geoCouch?

It's fine and AFAIK, @vmx is working on make it compatible with 2.0.
Cloudant didn't declare that feature they want to contribute. AFAIK,
again.

> - What's the general direction of the CouchDB ecosystem.  Are we seeing
> Cloudant diverge from Couch, with IBM-supported features not making their
> way back into the open source version of Couch?

We'll the other so far: Cloudant goes to be CouchDB 2.0 + extra
features, which they cannot open source now (like chained map/reduce),
or which we cannot include by default (like FTS because of Java). The
general direction in 2.0 era is to make CouchDB scale and extend
right, and find a balance between needs of regular and enterprise
users on that domain.

--
,,,^..^,,,

Re: The Future of Couch: [Was: The future of couchapps]

[Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>]

Miles,
the question you are asking about IMB-supported features was answered a year ago according to http://www.informationweek.com/big-data/software-platforms/ibm-cloudant-will-power-local-data-centers-apple-apps/d/d-id/1316965 <http://www.informationweek.com/big-data/software-platforms/ibm-cloudant-will-power-local-data-centers-apple-apps/d/d-id/1316965> 
An confirmation that this is the case from Cloudant wold be good.

"CouchDB 2.0 is essentially the code that Cloudant already runs, and once 2.0 is out, the Cloudant team will be working directly against Apache repositories and all of our bug-fixing and improvements will go directly to CouchDB," said Bob Newson, a senior engineer at Cloudant who is a member of the Apache CouchDB Project Management Committee, in a phone interview with InformationWeek. "Our thrust over the last year has been to consolidate the code bases because we don't want forks, and the only things in Cloudant that won't be in the Apache offering will be the proprietary bits we add on to manage the service."

Your question "Are we seeing Cloudant diverge from Couch" is as interesting to me to get an answer to as the comment I am getting on Jan's "watch me".
I really need to see a clear policy on this.

Johs


> On 20. sep. 2015, at 03.26, Miles Fidelman <mf...@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
> 
> I just spent a little time comparing "Cloudant Local" with CouchDB - and in addition to ongoing support for CouchApps, it seems like Cloudant Local supports geospatial functions as well.  Which leads me to wonder two things:
> - Whatever happened to geoCouch?
> - What's the general direction of the CouchDB ecosystem.  Are we seeing Cloudant diverge from Couch, with IBM-supported features not making their way back into the open source version of Couch?
> 
> Miles Fidelman
> 
> 
> Joan Touzet wrote:
>> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
>> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>> 
>> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with many
>> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there are so
>> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than we do
>> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, and a
>> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, there's
>> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated on the
>> list.
>> 
>> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, JavaScript
>> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to sustain
>> development on that over the course of the years it would take to match
>> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's just
>> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Joan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com>
>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>> 
>>> Hi John,
>>> 
>>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on this
>>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite enough
>>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop this
>>> feature.
>>> 
>>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. It's
>>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how to
>>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>>> users
>>> and not only.
>>> 
>>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in CouchDB
>>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.  Otherwise CouchApps
>>> will
>>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>> what
>>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>> 
>>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3CCAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>> 
>>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>> 
>>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely on
>>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a future
>>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>> 
>>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>> 
>>>> Johs
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>>> won't get
>>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>>> them were
>>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>>> step up and I’d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a few
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> don't like it
>>>>> Watch me.
> 
> 
> -- 
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
>