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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2002/06/04 11:11:39 UTC
Links to commercial entities
Matthew Langham wrote:
> I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the Apache side
> of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in the sense of
> "tolerated". Thanks.
Ok, a few comments from an ASF member.
NOTE: this is *not* official. Only the ASF board can state something
officially about the ASF, but this is as official as I can get.
First, Apache pays back with visibility, recognition, respect, credits
and all the non-conservative resources that we can. Paying back with
non-conservative resources (those that the sum is not constrained,
unlike money) allows to remove friction from the communities that would
otherwise develop.
So, rule #1: as long as giving a resource to somebody doesn't remove
anything from somebody else, no friction will develop and we are all
set.
Second, Apache is a realist entity. There is no such thing as 'absolute
freedom' (as some 'free software' persons advocate). In reality, you
can't eat 'non-conservative resources', well, until we don't have
startrek-like 'matter compilers', so there is an impedence mistmatch
that must somehow be solved.
We solved it by allowing people to 'use' their visibility (a
non-conservative resource) to obtain conservative resources (mostly
money, but also benefits, such as this very laptop that was kindly
donated to me some time ago).
Sure, there is the chance of 'abusing' this visibility. This the reason
why the Apache License prevents you from "stealing" due credits (and
avoid things like GNU/Linux debates) by abusing the name (you won't see
a 'RedHat Apache', that's for sure).
Still, there is no problem in letting people who deserve it to be listed
someplace in the site.
- o -
Now, this said: I personally don't have any problem in having a page
that lists companies that provide commercial services for Cocoon, as
long as they deserve it. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an ASF
policy for those things and we are allowed to create our own.
So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
What do you think?
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Links to commercial entities
Posted by Andy Lewis <aj...@ascii27.net>.
I'm not a committer here - but I think this is a excellent way to handle
it...
> Matthew Langham wrote:
>
>> I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the Apache
>> side of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in
>> the sense of "tolerated". Thanks.
>
> Ok, a few comments from an ASF member.
>
> NOTE: this is *not* official. Only the ASF board can state something
> officially about the ASF, but this is as official as I can get.
>
> First, Apache pays back with visibility, recognition, respect, credits
> and all the non-conservative resources that we can. Paying back with
> non-conservative resources (those that the sum is not constrained,
> unlike money) allows to remove friction from the communities that would
> otherwise develop.
>
> So, rule #1: as long as giving a resource to somebody doesn't remove
> anything from somebody else, no friction will develop and we are all
> set.
>
> Second, Apache is a realist entity. There is no such thing as 'absolute
> freedom' (as some 'free software' persons advocate). In reality, you
> can't eat 'non-conservative resources', well, until we don't have
> startrek-like 'matter compilers', so there is an impedence mistmatch
> that must somehow be solved.
>
> We solved it by allowing people to 'use' their visibility (a
> non-conservative resource) to obtain conservative resources (mostly
> money, but also benefits, such as this very laptop that was kindly
> donated to me some time ago).
>
> Sure, there is the chance of 'abusing' this visibility. This the reason
> why the Apache License prevents you from "stealing" due credits (and
> avoid things like GNU/Linux debates) by abusing the name (you won't see
> a 'RedHat Apache', that's for sure).
>
> Still, there is no problem in letting people who deserve it to be
> listed someplace in the site.
>
> - o -
>
> Now, this said: I personally don't have any problem in having a page
> that lists companies that provide commercial services for Cocoon, as
> long as they deserve it. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an
> ASF policy for those things and we are allowed to create our own.
>
> So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
> listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
> at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
>
> This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
>
> What do you think?
>
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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>
>
>
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--
"The heights of genius are only measurable by the depths of stupiditiy."
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Re: Links to commercial entities
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>Matthew Langham wrote:
>
>
>
>>I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the Apache side
>>of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in the sense of
>>"tolerated". Thanks.
>>
>>
<snip/>
>Now, this said: I personally don't have any problem in having a page
>that lists companies that provide commercial services for Cocoon, as
>long as they deserve it. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an ASF
>policy for those things and we are allowed to create our own.
>
>So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
>listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
>at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
>
>This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
>
>What do you think?
>
>
>
These are simple but wise rules, as they will reward active members of
the community.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez
Anyware Technologies Apache Cocoon
http://www.anyware-tech.com mailto:sylvain@apache.org
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RE: Links to commercial entities
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Now, this said: I personally don't have any problem in having a page
> that lists companies that provide commercial services for Cocoon, as
> long as they deserve it.
I agree here totally, but I see problems in finding out who deserves
it and who not. (There are some companies out there claiming themselfs
to be Cocoon experts which have *NEVER* contributed anything to Cocoon.
And I think they really do not deserve it to be listed!)
> Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an ASF
> policy for those things and we are allowed to create our own.
>
> So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
> listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
> at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
>
A patch is one criteria, but perhaps there are more: what about people
answering many questions in the mailing lists but never submitting a
patch etc. This will be very difficult to decide, but we could try it :)
BUT: I don't want to vote on it for two reasons: (ok, I know, if I don't
want to vote I don't have to). First: the community is not
really interested in these votes. So there won't be many votes for a
new entry, I fear. What do we do if only one says: +1 and all the
others remain silent?
But the other thing is that we might get into a competition between two
commercial entities. What if one entity is listed and perhaps
represented by a committer and a competitor wants to be listed, too?
This might create some difficulties, but perhaps I'm too panicing (does
this work exists?) here. I personally have no problems with this, but
others might have (and perhaps the boss of that committer).
> This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
>
> What do you think?
>
As always: we should/could give it a try and see what happens.
Carsten
Carsten Ziegeler Chief Architect Open Source Group, S&N AG
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Re: Links to commercial entities
Posted by Jeremy Quinn <sh...@mac.com>.
On Tuesday, June 4, 2002, at 10:11 AM, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Matthew Langham wrote:
>
>> I discussed this with Sylvain and we both were not sure of the
>> Apache side
>> of things. Perhaps someone can comment on what is "allowed" in
>> the sense of
>> "tolerated". Thanks.
>
> So, I would like to propose that a commercial entity that want to be
> listed on those pages *MUST* have submitted at least a patch in the CVS
> at some point and *MUST* be voted in by the committers.
>
> This should remove abuses and keep things sane.
>
> What do you think?
>
Sounds extremely sane to me.
+1
I'll add myself ;)
regards Jeremy
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