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Posted to dev@servicemix.apache.org by James Strachan <ja...@fusesource.com> on 2011/07/01 10:13:48 UTC
Re: [DISCUSS] Rebooting ServiceMix 5
On 29 June 2011 10:14, Geert Schuring <ge...@schuring.eu> wrote:
> I too have doubts about the Tomcat distribution. The software stack that
> ServiceMix consists of is already very complex, and contains all kinds of
> frameworks and components that can be used outside ServiceMix or OSGi as
> well. In my opinion ServiceMix should focus on providing a consistent, well
> documented environment instead of trying to serve as much different ways of
> implementation as possible. I think that's an important reason why the
> documentation has been so slow and painful for SMX 3 & 4.
>
> I think starting new documenation from scratch for SMX 5 is a very good
> idea. Combined with using scalate and storing the documentation in
> subversion, we should be able to write version specific and accurate
> documentation.
>
> Would it be possible to drop spring entirely and switch to blueprint for SMX
> 5? That again would simplify the examples and documentation, and would make
> SMX 5 more accessible to new users.
An ESB is all about integration; so dropping support for things people
use is generally bad; though for sure we should recommend on OSGi
folks use blueprint as its simpler & smaller; though we should still
support folks using Spring.
--
James
-------
FuseSource
Email: james@fusesource.com
Web: http://fusesource.com
Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
Open Source Integration and Messaging
Re: [DISCUSS] Rebooting ServiceMix 5
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@fusesource.com>.
On 1 July 2011 11:01, Ioannis Canellos <io...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm not even sure that's possible :). Using ServiceMix in a Tomcat
>> distro would be more about "reusing Tomcat" than "taking full
>> advantage of OSGi".
>>
>
> Please allow me to rephrase: "How can we build a product, that will run both
> on Tomcat and Karaf, without limiting the pure Karaf deployments".
> It's not a statement. Its more like a technical concern.
Totally agreed BTW. I think its totally fine for some stuff to only
work in OSGi land and some stuff to be a bit 'hard baked' into Tomcat.
--
James
-------
FuseSource
Email: james@fusesource.com
Web: http://fusesource.com
Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
Open Source Integration and Messaging
Re: [DISCUSS] Rebooting ServiceMix 5
Posted by Ioannis Canellos <io...@gmail.com>.
> I'm not even sure that's possible :). Using ServiceMix in a Tomcat
> distro would be more about "reusing Tomcat" than "taking full
> advantage of OSGi".
>
Please allow me to rephrase: "How can we build a product, that will run both
on Tomcat and Karaf, without limiting the pure Karaf deployments".
It's not a statement. Its more like a technical concern.
> Tomcat and Karaf both rock and both have their pros and cons; though
> letting users choose is a good thing too IMHO.
>
Despite my technical concerns, I totally agree on that.
--
*Ioannis Canellos*
*
http://iocanel.blogspot.com
Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
Apache ServiceMix <http://servicemix.apache.org/> Committer
*
Re: [DISCUSS] Rebooting ServiceMix 5
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@fusesource.com>.
On 1 July 2011 09:58, Ioannis Canellos <io...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My comment about being skeptic about Tomcat received a lot of comments, so I
> would like to clarify that I am not being skeptic on "if we should support
> tomcat" but on "how can we support tomcat + take full advantage of OSGi".
I'm not even sure that's possible :). Using ServiceMix in a Tomcat
distro would be more about "reusing Tomcat" than "taking full
advantage of OSGi".
It will be interesting to see how OSGi-like we can make Tomcat, but
I'd have thought the shared class loader stuff in Tomcat is always
going to be fairly static though; not like OSGi where anything can be
hot swapped at runtime and by using wacky class loaders you can hide
packages or share different versions of the same package across
deployment units. WARs can clearly be hot-swapped; am not sure if
there'll be any hot swapping of the shared ServiceMix class loader
stuff though.
Though maybe its a bit like using statically typed languages like
Scala in a REPL (which makes it seem like a totally dynamic scripting
language when really its just compiling each line on the fly); we
could maybe make the Tomcat version of ServiceMix look and feel like
the dynamic OSGi world; its just when you upgrade/install/uninstall
something shared, it just reboots Tomcat under the covers :). But then
folks in production with Tomcat tend to do that anyway when
undeploying WARs anyway :)
Its worth remembering though that the aim isn't to turn Tomcat into
OSGi (there's no point, there's already OSGi/Karaf if thats what you
want :), its to bring the ServiceMix goodness to folks who prefer
Tomcat as their general purpose application container.
Tomcat and Karaf both rock and both have their pros and cons; though
letting users choose is a good thing too IMHO.
--
James
-------
FuseSource
Email: james@fusesource.com
Web: http://fusesource.com
Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
Open Source Integration and Messaging
Re: [DISCUSS] Rebooting ServiceMix 5
Posted by Ioannis Canellos <io...@gmail.com>.
My comment about being skeptic about Tomcat received a lot of comments, so I
would like to clarify that I am not being skeptic on "if we should support
tomcat" but on "how can we support tomcat + take full advantage of OSGi".
--
*Ioannis Canellos*
*
http://iocanel.blogspot.com
Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC
Apache ServiceMix <http://servicemix.apache.org/> Committer
*
Re: [DISCUSS] Rebooting ServiceMix 5
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:41, Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:13 AM, James Strachan <ja...@fusesource.com> wrote:
>> On 29 June 2011 10:14, Geert Schuring <ge...@schuring.eu> wrote:
>>> I too have doubts about the Tomcat distribution. The software stack that
>>> ServiceMix consists of is already very complex, and contains all kinds of
>>> frameworks and components that can be used outside ServiceMix or OSGi as
>>> well. In my opinion ServiceMix should focus on providing a consistent, well
>>> documented environment instead of trying to serve as much different ways of
>>> implementation as possible. I think that's an important reason why the
>>> documentation has been so slow and painful for SMX 3 & 4.
>>>
>>> I think starting new documenation from scratch for SMX 5 is a very good
>>> idea. Combined with using scalate and storing the documentation in
>>> subversion, we should be able to write version specific and accurate
>>> documentation.
>>>
>>> Would it be possible to drop spring entirely and switch to blueprint for SMX
>>> 5? That again would simplify the examples and documentation, and would make
>>> SMX 5 more accessible to new users.
>>
>> An ESB is all about integration; so dropping support for things people
>> use is generally bad; though for sure we should recommend on OSGi
>> folks use blueprint as its simpler & smaller; though we should still
>> support folks using Spring.
>>
>
> Yeah Spring is widely used. Its just that spring-dm is ... not their
> finest moment.
> Maybe that Eclipse Virgo is better (isnt that spring-dm 2.0).
The ideas in spring-dm are really good, I think the main problem is
that they had the requirement to support spring namespaces with no
changes, and that it does not fit well in OSGi. The Aries blueprint
impl did not had such constraints, so it was easier to have something
better ;-)
>
>> --
>> James
>> -------
>> FuseSource
>> Email: james@fusesource.com
>> Web: http://fusesource.com
>> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
>> Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
>>
>> Open Source Integration and Messaging
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Claus Ibsen
> -----------------
> FuseSource
> Email: cibsen@fusesource.com
> Web: http://fusesource.com
> Twitter: davsclaus, fusenews
> Blog: http://davsclaus.blogspot.com/
> Author of Camel in Action: http://www.manning.com/ibsen/
>
--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
Re: [DISCUSS] Rebooting ServiceMix 5
Posted by Claus Ibsen <cl...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:13 AM, James Strachan <ja...@fusesource.com> wrote:
> On 29 June 2011 10:14, Geert Schuring <ge...@schuring.eu> wrote:
>> I too have doubts about the Tomcat distribution. The software stack that
>> ServiceMix consists of is already very complex, and contains all kinds of
>> frameworks and components that can be used outside ServiceMix or OSGi as
>> well. In my opinion ServiceMix should focus on providing a consistent, well
>> documented environment instead of trying to serve as much different ways of
>> implementation as possible. I think that's an important reason why the
>> documentation has been so slow and painful for SMX 3 & 4.
>>
>> I think starting new documenation from scratch for SMX 5 is a very good
>> idea. Combined with using scalate and storing the documentation in
>> subversion, we should be able to write version specific and accurate
>> documentation.
>>
>> Would it be possible to drop spring entirely and switch to blueprint for SMX
>> 5? That again would simplify the examples and documentation, and would make
>> SMX 5 more accessible to new users.
>
> An ESB is all about integration; so dropping support for things people
> use is generally bad; though for sure we should recommend on OSGi
> folks use blueprint as its simpler & smaller; though we should still
> support folks using Spring.
>
Yeah Spring is widely used. Its just that spring-dm is ... not their
finest moment.
Maybe that Eclipse Virgo is better (isnt that spring-dm 2.0).
> --
> James
> -------
> FuseSource
> Email: james@fusesource.com
> Web: http://fusesource.com
> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
> Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/
>
> Open Source Integration and Messaging
>
--
Claus Ibsen
-----------------
FuseSource
Email: cibsen@fusesource.com
Web: http://fusesource.com
Twitter: davsclaus, fusenews
Blog: http://davsclaus.blogspot.com/
Author of Camel in Action: http://www.manning.com/ibsen/