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Posted to dev@nuttx.apache.org by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com> on 2019/12/25 14:34:20 UTC
User Email Account
There have been quite a few NuttX users who have been put of by the
volume and content of emails on this list. December is not quite over
and there have been close to 850 emails so far this month. And the
majority of the community is only interested is discussion technical
issues and do not even care about the project-oriented content.
So I wonder, would it be good to have a user@nuttx.apache.org mail list
just for user-facing questions? I see that many other projects have
such an email account. This would allow people to have simple
discussions about the OS without the organizational/political content.
Such an email would be a replacement for the Google email list.
dev@nuttx.apache.org is not.
Does this sound like good idea? Or should should we continue to force
users to wad through 100s of emails that they do not way to see?
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
The user list is usually only created once a project graduates, but sometimes it is before if there too much noise.
Some reasons for not creating a user account so early:
- User questions tend to be ignored if they are on a seperate list
- Users don’t participate in other activities so you miss out on potential candidates for committers
- Users miss important details e.g how to submit bug reports/make contributions
Other part of the solution is the rate limit yourself and write more careful replies or reply to several emails at once.
Thanks,
Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>.
> Definitely a good idea.
> I believe David also suggested that gitbox messages will be redirected
> to their own pr@ mailing list.
>
> There is just too much traffic in dev@
I tried to create the email account at https://selfserve.apache.org/,
but it says I have can't do that because I am not a PMC member. We'll
have to ask someone else to do this for us.
I will then update the post at the Google group about the new email list.
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Abdelatif Guettouche <ab...@gmail.com>.
Definitely a good idea.
I believe David also suggested that gitbox messages will be redirected
to their own pr@ mailing list.
There is just too much traffic in dev@
On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 2:38 PM 张铎(Duo Zhang) <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1 on a user@nuttx mailing list.
>
> Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com> 于2019年12月25日周三 下午10:34写道：
>
> > There have been quite a few NuttX users who have been put of by the
> > volume and content of emails on this list. December is not quite over
> > and there have been close to 850 emails so far this month. And the
> > majority of the community is only interested is discussion technical
> > issues and do not even care about the project-oriented content.
> >
> > So I wonder, would it be good to have a user@nuttx.apache.org mail list
> > just for user-facing questions? I see that many other projects have
> > such an email account. This would allow people to have simple
> > discussions about the OS without the organizational/political content.
> > Such an email would be a replacement for the Google email list.
> > dev@nuttx.apache.org is not.
> >
> > Does this sound like good idea? Or should should we continue to force
> > users to wad through 100s of emails that they do not way to see?
> >
> >
> >
Re: User Email Account
Posted by "张铎 (Duo Zhang)" <pa...@gmail.com>.
+1 on a user@nuttx mailing list.
Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com> 于2019年12月25日周三 下午10:34写道：
> There have been quite a few NuttX users who have been put of by the
> volume and content of emails on this list. December is not quite over
> and there have been close to 850 emails so far this month. And the
> majority of the community is only interested is discussion technical
> issues and do not even care about the project-oriented content.
>
> So I wonder, would it be good to have a user@nuttx.apache.org mail list
> just for user-facing questions? I see that many other projects have
> such an email account. This would allow people to have simple
> discussions about the OS without the organizational/political content.
> Such an email would be a replacement for the Google email list.
> dev@nuttx.apache.org is not.
>
> Does this sound like good idea? Or should should we continue to force
> users to wad through 100s of emails that they do not way to see?
>
>
>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>.
> (By the way, I expect that once the dust settles, we have consensus on
> a workflow, and we "find our groove," the volume of organizational
> emails should drop substantially and most emails on dev will center
> around technical discussions once again. But it might take a while...)
I expect it to die down as well but there will still be a lot of chatter
about internal policies and releases which will maintain a substantial
volume indefinitely.
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Xiang Xiao <xi...@gmail.com>.
issues@ is a good name, let's follow the convention.
On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 1:06 AM Abdelatif Guettouche
<ab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
> > but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
> > review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
> > list?
>
> While reading some projects' board reports, I came across this:
>
> > Gitbox traffic is now going to issues@. The community was losing dev@
> > subscribers because of the high volume of traffic from Gitbox.
>
> Once we are all set up and ready to receive patches/PRs, we may run
> into the same issue.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 1:34 PM Xiang Xiao <xi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
> > but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
> > review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
> > list?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Xiang
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 8:19 PM spudaneco <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I may grumble a bit bur I always follow Justin's advice.I do think that
> > > NuttX is diferent from other new podlings because began with a huge user
> > > base and has a few different needs on day 1 as a mature project.I don't
> > > believe that finding new committers will be a problem.Sent from Samsung
> > > tablet.
> > > -------- Original message --------From: Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io> Date:
> > > 12/26/19 1:23 AM (GMT-06:00) To: dev@nuttx.apache.org Subject: Re: User
> > > Email Account I think what Justin is saying is that it's going to seem like
> > > uncomfortablechaos for a bit, but will eventually settle down into a better
> > > state.From what I know about well-functioning teams, that seems right.
> > > Form,storm, norm,
> > > perform.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development>
> > > :)cheersadamOn Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 8:28 PM Justin Mclean
> > > <ju...@classsoftware.com>wrote:> Hi,>> Most of those are not current
> > > incubating projects. Some of them did not> become to level projects. Just
> > > about all did not start with user lists.> Creating a seperate user list this
> > > early in previous incubating projects> has slowed or hindered their
> > > community growth. You want users involved so> that they become committers.
> > > At no point have I said you can't do this but> the PPMC needs to carefully
> > > consider it. My Internet access is limited> right now but if you search on
> > > the incubator general list you'll see> several discussions on this.>>
> > > Thanks,> Justin>-- Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
RE: User Email Account
Posted by David Sidrane <Da...@nscdg.com>.
+1
-----Original Message-----
From: 张铎(Duo Zhang) [mailto:palomino219@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 10:49 PM
To: dev@nuttx.apache.org
Subject: Re: User Email Account
But I think posting so many 'hard to read' emails to the mailing list will
hurt user experience and cause users to leave...
Actually for a committer, or a long term contributor who is familiar with
the community, he/she can just use a filter to filter these emails out,
this is what I have done for hadoop. But for a new user, when he/she
subscribe the mailing list and then receive a bunch of emails just sent by
a robot then he/she may unsubscribe immediately... I do not think this is
user friendly...
Thanks.
Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> 于2019年12月31日周二 上午8:23写道：
> Hi,
>
> I think we will just let the gitbox forwarded emails to go to another
> > mailing list, which we can see on GitHub? No information lost.
> >
>
> Which assumes you use github and not every one does. New users may not,
> again try to put yourself in a user shoes not a committer on the project.
> What's convenient for developers not not be for users. There should be one
> place I can come to to get a good idea of how the project works and what
> is
> going on. As a new user if that's spread over many places does that help
> me? Anyway I suggest you carefully read the conversations I pointed to on
> the incubator general list in particular the comments on the damaging
> effect on community growth.
>
> Thanks
> Justin
>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>.
I'm a relatively new NuttX user– just joined as the Apache incubator
started. The amount of emails was a lot, but once I understood what's
happening and why, it was relatively easy to get what I needed. I can pick
out the user/help emails from the robot accounts and the Apache Incubator
discussions. I don't have to tune into all of them.
So maybe all we need is a short statement about what's going on with the
Apache incubator and why everything is all together on the same list? That
should be easy to put in the automatic welcome email that people get when
they join the list.
-adam
On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 10:49 PM 张铎(Duo Zhang) <pa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> But I think posting so many 'hard to read' emails to the mailing list will
> hurt user experience and cause users to leave...
>
> Actually for a committer, or a long term contributor who is familiar with
> the community, he/she can just use a filter to filter these emails out,
> this is what I have done for hadoop. But for a new user, when he/she
> subscribe the mailing list and then receive a bunch of emails just sent by
> a robot then he/she may unsubscribe immediately... I do not think this is
> user friendly...
>
> Thanks.
>
> Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> 于2019年12月31日周二 上午8:23写道：
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I think we will just let the gitbox forwarded emails to go to another
> > > mailing list, which we can see on GitHub? No information lost.
> > >
> >
> > Which assumes you use github and not every one does. New users may not,
> > again try to put yourself in a user shoes not a committer on the project.
> > What's convenient for developers not not be for users. There should be
> one
> > place I can come to to get a good idea of how the project works and what
> is
> > going on. As a new user if that's spread over many places does that help
> > me? Anyway I suggest you carefully read the conversations I pointed to on
> > the incubator general list in particular the comments on the damaging
> > effect on community growth.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Justin
> >
>
--
Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by "张铎 (Duo Zhang)" <pa...@gmail.com>.
But I think posting so many 'hard to read' emails to the mailing list will
hurt user experience and cause users to leave...
Actually for a committer, or a long term contributor who is familiar with
the community, he/she can just use a filter to filter these emails out,
this is what I have done for hadoop. But for a new user, when he/she
subscribe the mailing list and then receive a bunch of emails just sent by
a robot then he/she may unsubscribe immediately... I do not think this is
user friendly...
Thanks.
Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> 于2019年12月31日周二 上午8:23写道：
> Hi,
>
> I think we will just let the gitbox forwarded emails to go to another
> > mailing list, which we can see on GitHub? No information lost.
> >
>
> Which assumes you use github and not every one does. New users may not,
> again try to put yourself in a user shoes not a committer on the project.
> What's convenient for developers not not be for users. There should be one
> place I can come to to get a good idea of how the project works and what is
> going on. As a new user if that's spread over many places does that help
> me? Anyway I suggest you carefully read the conversations I pointed to on
> the incubator general list in particular the comments on the damaging
> effect on community growth.
>
> Thanks
> Justin
>
RE: User Email Account
Posted by David Sidrane <Da...@nscdg.com>.
Hi Justin,
I would say we all understand the argument. We do not agree with how the
problem is solved.
Why are we making everyone drink from the fire hose?
Please help make this work for everyone. Clearly, from the responses, it is
not.
How about we make multiple lists and arrogate them to top level list and
then to an 'all' list?
Like:
Make a list 'all' aggregate all the email;
Make a list dev just have dev email
Make a list github-dev just have github PR, issue email
Make a list gitbox-dev just have gitbox PR issue email
Make a list commits just have commit email
Make a list github-commits just have github commits issue email
Make a list gitbox-commits...
Make xys-dev just have xyz email
Make a list issues just have issues email
Make a list github-issues just have github issues email
Make a list gitbox- issues just have gitbox issues email
Then let the people choose. They can start at 'all' and throttle back to a
set that helps them, not drowns them.
That a win-win. ASF get is metrics and the rest of get to "get to work"
If you do not give the community well thought out options - they will bail!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Mclean [mailto:justin@classsoftware.com]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 4:23 PM
To: dev@nuttx.apache.org
Subject: Re: User Email Account
Hi,
I think we will just let the gitbox forwarded emails to go to another
> mailing list, which we can see on GitHub? No information lost.
>
Which assumes you use github and not every one does. New users may not,
again try to put yourself in a user shoes not a committer on the project.
What's convenient for developers not not be for users. There should be one
place I can come to to get a good idea of how the project works and what is
going on. As a new user if that's spread over many places does that help
me? Anyway I suggest you carefully read the conversations I pointed to on
the incubator general list in particular the comments on the damaging
effect on community growth.
Thanks
Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
I think we will just let the gitbox forwarded emails to go to another
> mailing list, which we can see on GitHub? No information lost.
>
Which assumes you use github and not every one does. New users may not,
again try to put yourself in a user shoes not a committer on the project.
What's convenient for developers not not be for users. There should be one
place I can come to to get a good idea of how the project works and what is
going on. As a new user if that's spread over many places does that help
me? Anyway I suggest you carefully read the conversations I pointed to on
the incubator general list in particular the comments on the damaging
effect on community growth.
Thanks
Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by "张铎 (Duo Zhang)" <pa...@gmail.com>.
Hi, Justin
I think we will just let the gitbox forwarded emails to go to another
mailing list, which we can see on GitHub? No information lost.
And the problem is, actually we are answering the questions on GitHub but
then the answer is sent to this mailing list again with a hard to read
format...
I do not think this is something which splits the community.
Thanks.
Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>于2019年12月31日 周二06:07写道：
> Hi,
>
> > The discussion has shifted more towards redirecting gitbox
>
> Which splits the community. How many people will subscribe to that list?
> Will user get answers to their questions if less (or no) people see them?
>
> > We are just concerned that this may cause a lot of noise in dev@
>
> So why decide it is going to be an issue before it is proven to be one?
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> The discussion has shifted more towards redirecting gitbox
Which splits the community. How many people will subscribe to that list? Will user get answers to their questions if less (or no) people see them?
> We are just concerned that this may cause a lot of noise in dev@
So why decide it is going to be an issue before it is proven to be one?
Thanks,
Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Abdelatif Guettouche <ab...@gmail.com>.
Hi Justin,
The discussion has shifted more towards redirecting gitbox
notifications to their own mailing list.
Something similar to commit@
We are just concerned that this may cause a lot of noise in dev@
On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 9:21 PM Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just an observation. You seem to making decisions based and what you think will happen rather than what actually will happening and ignoring advice given. While these things can be corrected, splitting the community so early is not recommended. Did anyone read the links to the conversations I posted?
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
Just an observation. You seem to making decisions based and what you think will happen rather than what actually will happening and ignoring advice given. While these things can be corrected, splitting the community so early is not recommended. Did anyone read the links to the conversations I posted?
Thanks,
Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Xiang Xiao <xi...@gmail.com>.
New JIRA request INFRA create issues@nuttx.apache.org:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-19645
On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 3:24 AM Alin Jerpelea <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> sounds like a good ideea
> lets hope that we can still maintain the dev focus with less distraction
>
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 19:43 Alan Carvalho de Assis <ac...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think is it a good idea! It will avoid increase the volume of emails
> > to dev@ list.
> >
> > BR,
> >
> > Alan
> >
> > On 12/27/19, Abdelatif Guettouche <ab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
> > >> but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
> > >> review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
> > >> list?
> > >
> > > While reading some projects' board reports, I came across this:
> > >
> > >> Gitbox traffic is now going to issues@. The community was losing dev@
> > >> subscribers because of the high volume of traffic from Gitbox.
> > >
> > > Once we are all set up and ready to receive patches/PRs, we may run
> > > into the same issue.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 1:34 PM Xiang Xiao <xi...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
> > >> but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
> > >> review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
> > >> list?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks
> > >> Xiang
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 8:19 PM spudaneco <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > I may grumble a bit bur I always follow Justin's advice.I do think
> > that
> > >> > NuttX is diferent from other new podlings because began with a huge
> > >> > user
> > >> > base and has a few different needs on day 1 as a mature project.I
> > don't
> > >> > believe that finding new committers will be a problem.Sent from
> > Samsung
> > >> > tablet.
> > >> > -------- Original message --------From: Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
> > >> > Date:
> > >> > 12/26/19 1:23 AM (GMT-06:00) To: dev@nuttx.apache.org Subject: Re:
> > >> > User
> > >> > Email Account I think what Justin is saying is that it's going to seem
> > >> > like
> > >> > uncomfortablechaos for a bit, but will eventually settle down into a
> > >> > better
> > >> > state.From what I know about well-functioning teams, that seems right.
> > >> > Form,storm, norm,
> > >> > perform.<
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development>
> > >> > :)cheersadamOn Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 8:28 PM Justin Mclean
> > >> > <ju...@classsoftware.com>wrote:> Hi,>> Most of those are not current
> > >> > incubating projects. Some of them did not> become to level projects.
> > >> > Just
> > >> > about all did not start with user lists.> Creating a seperate user
> > list
> > >> > this
> > >> > early in previous incubating projects> has slowed or hindered their
> > >> > community growth. You want users involved so> that they become
> > >> > committers.
> > >> > At no point have I said you can't do this but> the PPMC needs to
> > >> > carefully
> > >> > consider it. My Internet access is limited> right now but if you
> > search
> > >> > on
> > >> > the incubator general list you'll see> several discussions on this.>>
> > >> > Thanks,> Justin>-- Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
> > >
> >
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Alin Jerpelea <je...@gmail.com>.
sounds like a good ideea
lets hope that we can still maintain the dev focus with less distraction
On Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 19:43 Alan Carvalho de Assis <ac...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I think is it a good idea! It will avoid increase the volume of emails
> to dev@ list.
>
> BR,
>
> Alan
>
> On 12/27/19, Abdelatif Guettouche <ab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
> >> but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
> >> review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
> >> list?
> >
> > While reading some projects' board reports, I came across this:
> >
> >> Gitbox traffic is now going to issues@. The community was losing dev@
> >> subscribers because of the high volume of traffic from Gitbox.
> >
> > Once we are all set up and ready to receive patches/PRs, we may run
> > into the same issue.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 1:34 PM Xiang Xiao <xi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
> >> but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
> >> review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
> >> list?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Xiang
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 8:19 PM spudaneco <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I may grumble a bit bur I always follow Justin's advice.I do think
> that
> >> > NuttX is diferent from other new podlings because began with a huge
> >> > user
> >> > base and has a few different needs on day 1 as a mature project.I
> don't
> >> > believe that finding new committers will be a problem.Sent from
> Samsung
> >> > tablet.
> >> > -------- Original message --------From: Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
> >> > Date:
> >> > 12/26/19 1:23 AM (GMT-06:00) To: dev@nuttx.apache.org Subject: Re:
> >> > User
> >> > Email Account I think what Justin is saying is that it's going to seem
> >> > like
> >> > uncomfortablechaos for a bit, but will eventually settle down into a
> >> > better
> >> > state.From what I know about well-functioning teams, that seems right.
> >> > Form,storm, norm,
> >> > perform.<
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development>
> >> > :)cheersadamOn Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 8:28 PM Justin Mclean
> >> > <ju...@classsoftware.com>wrote:> Hi,>> Most of those are not current
> >> > incubating projects. Some of them did not> become to level projects.
> >> > Just
> >> > about all did not start with user lists.> Creating a seperate user
> list
> >> > this
> >> > early in previous incubating projects> has slowed or hindered their
> >> > community growth. You want users involved so> that they become
> >> > committers.
> >> > At no point have I said you can't do this but> the PPMC needs to
> >> > carefully
> >> > consider it. My Internet access is limited> right now but if you
> search
> >> > on
> >> > the incubator general list you'll see> several discussions on this.>>
> >> > Thanks,> Justin>-- Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
> >
>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Alan Carvalho de Assis <ac...@gmail.com>.
I think is it a good idea! It will avoid increase the volume of emails
to dev@ list.
BR,
Alan
On 12/27/19, Abdelatif Guettouche <ab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
>> but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
>> review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
>> list?
>
> While reading some projects' board reports, I came across this:
>
>> Gitbox traffic is now going to issues@. The community was losing dev@
>> subscribers because of the high volume of traffic from Gitbox.
>
> Once we are all set up and ready to receive patches/PRs, we may run
> into the same issue.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 1:34 PM Xiang Xiao <xi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
>> but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
>> review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
>> list?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Xiang
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 8:19 PM spudaneco <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I may grumble a bit bur I always follow Justin's advice.I do think that
>> > NuttX is diferent from other new podlings because began with a huge
>> > user
>> > base and has a few different needs on day 1 as a mature project.I don't
>> > believe that finding new committers will be a problem.Sent from Samsung
>> > tablet.
>> > -------- Original message --------From: Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
>> > Date:
>> > 12/26/19 1:23 AM (GMT-06:00) To: dev@nuttx.apache.org Subject: Re:
>> > User
>> > Email Account I think what Justin is saying is that it's going to seem
>> > like
>> > uncomfortablechaos for a bit, but will eventually settle down into a
>> > better
>> > state.From what I know about well-functioning teams, that seems right.
>> > Form,storm, norm,
>> > perform.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development>
>> > :)cheersadamOn Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 8:28 PM Justin Mclean
>> > <ju...@classsoftware.com>wrote:> Hi,>> Most of those are not current
>> > incubating projects. Some of them did not> become to level projects.
>> > Just
>> > about all did not start with user lists.> Creating a seperate user list
>> > this
>> > early in previous incubating projects> has slowed or hindered their
>> > community growth. You want users involved so> that they become
>> > committers.
>> > At no point have I said you can't do this but> the PPMC needs to
>> > carefully
>> > consider it. My Internet access is limited> right now but if you search
>> > on
>> > the incubator general list you'll see> several discussions on this.>>
>> > Thanks,> Justin>-- Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Abdelatif Guettouche <ab...@gmail.com>.
> The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
> but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
> review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
> list?
While reading some projects' board reports, I came across this:
> Gitbox traffic is now going to issues@. The community was losing dev@
> subscribers because of the high volume of traffic from Gitbox.
Once we are all set up and ready to receive patches/PRs, we may run
into the same issue.
On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 1:34 PM Xiang Xiao <xi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
> but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
> review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
> list?
>
> Thanks
> Xiang
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 8:19 PM spudaneco <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I may grumble a bit bur I always follow Justin's advice.I do think that
> > NuttX is diferent from other new podlings because began with a huge user
> > base and has a few different needs on day 1 as a mature project.I don't
> > believe that finding new committers will be a problem.Sent from Samsung
> > tablet.
> > -------- Original message --------From: Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io> Date:
> > 12/26/19 1:23 AM (GMT-06:00) To: dev@nuttx.apache.org Subject: Re: User
> > Email Account I think what Justin is saying is that it's going to seem like
> > uncomfortablechaos for a bit, but will eventually settle down into a better
> > state.From what I know about well-functioning teams, that seems right.
> > Form,storm, norm,
> > perform.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development>
> > :)cheersadamOn Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 8:28 PM Justin Mclean
> > <ju...@classsoftware.com>wrote:> Hi,>> Most of those are not current
> > incubating projects. Some of them did not> become to level projects. Just
> > about all did not start with user lists.> Creating a seperate user list this
> > early in previous incubating projects> has slowed or hindered their
> > community growth. You want users involved so> that they become committers.
> > At no point have I said you can't do this but> the PPMC needs to carefully
> > consider it. My Internet access is limited> right now but if you search on
> > the incubator general list you'll see> several discussions on this.>>
> > Thanks,> Justin>-- Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Xiang Xiao <xi...@gmail.com>.
The dev list traffic may reduce after we finish the workflow discussion.
but email from GibBox will become more and more, can we send them to
review@nuttx.apache.org to avoid the review message mess up the dev
list?
Thanks
Xiang
On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 8:19 PM spudaneco <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I may grumble a bit bur I always follow Justin's advice.I do think that
> NuttX is diferent from other new podlings because began with a huge user
> base and has a few different needs on day 1 as a mature project.I don't
> believe that finding new committers will be a problem.Sent from Samsung
> tablet.
> -------- Original message --------From: Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io> Date:
> 12/26/19 1:23 AM (GMT-06:00) To: dev@nuttx.apache.org Subject: Re: User
> Email Account I think what Justin is saying is that it's going to seem like
> uncomfortablechaos for a bit, but will eventually settle down into a better
> state.From what I know about well-functioning teams, that seems right.
> Form,storm, norm,
> perform.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development>
> :)cheersadamOn Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 8:28 PM Justin Mclean
> <ju...@classsoftware.com>wrote:> Hi,>> Most of those are not current
> incubating projects. Some of them did not> become to level projects. Just
> about all did not start with user lists.> Creating a seperate user list this
> early in previous incubating projects> has slowed or hindered their
> community growth. You want users involved so> that they become committers.
> At no point have I said you can't do this but> the PPMC needs to carefully
> consider it. My Internet access is limited> right now but if you search on
> the incubator general list you'll see> several discussions on this.>>
> Thanks,> Justin>-- Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by spudaneco <sp...@gmail.com>.
I may grumble a bit bur I always follow Justin's advice.I do think that NuttX is diferent from other new podlings because began with a huge user base and has a few different needs on day 1 as a mature project.I don't believe that finding new committers will be a problem.Sent from Samsung tablet.
-------- Original message --------From: Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io> Date: 12/26/19 1:23 AM (GMT-06:00) To: dev@nuttx.apache.org Subject: Re: User Email Account I think what Justin is saying is that it's going to seem like uncomfortablechaos for a bit, but will eventually settle down into a better state.From what I know about well-functioning teams, that seems right. Form,storm, norm, perform.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development> :)cheersadamOn Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 8:28 PM Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>wrote:> Hi,>> Most of those are not current incubating projects. Some of them did not> become to level projects. Just about all did not start with user lists.> Creating a seperate user list this early in previous incubating projects> has slowed or hindered their community growth. You want users involved so> that they become committers. At no point have I said you can't do this but> the PPMC needs to carefully consider it. My Internet access is limited> right now but if you search on the incubator general list you'll see> several discussions on this.>> Thanks,> Justin>-- Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>.
I think what Justin is saying is that it's going to seem like uncomfortable
chaos for a bit, but will eventually settle down into a better state.
From what I know about well-functioning teams, that seems right. Form,
storm, norm, perform.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development> :)
cheers
adam
On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 8:28 PM Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Most of those are not current incubating projects. Some of them did not
> become to level projects. Just about all did not start with user lists.
> Creating a seperate user list this early in previous incubating projects
> has slowed or hindered their community growth. You want users involved so
> that they become committers. At no point have I said you can't do this but
> the PPMC needs to carefully consider it. My Internet access is limited
> right now but if you search on the incubator general list you'll see
> several discussions on this.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
--
Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
Most of those are not current incubating projects. Some of them did not
become to level projects. Just about all did not start with user lists.
Creating a seperate user list this early in previous incubating projects
has slowed or hindered their community growth. You want users involved so
that they become committers. At no point have I said you can't do this but
the PPMC needs to carefully consider it. My Internet access is limited
right now but if you search on the incubator general list you'll see
several discussions on this.
Thanks,
Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>.
On 12/25/2019 6:22 PM, Gregory Nutt wrote:
> On 12/25/2019 5:58 PM, Justin Mclean wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>> I think the idea has been nix'ed by Justin. So I am not going to
>>> pursue this. Others may want to buck the system, but I have already
>>> caused enough problems.
>> How so? We already have a seperate commits@nuttx.apache.org list
>> which is working fine from what I can see.
>
> I don't see the relevance of commits@nuttx.apache.org. It has nothing
> do with the issue that is being addressed for the end user.
>
> The issue for users who just want to ask for help. For example, "I am
> using and STM32Fxxx-Foobar board. I enable I2C3 and I get this error
> when trying to communicate with my GPS modem. Please help me?" And a
> response might be something like, "Oh, I think you need to enable
> CONFIG_FOOBAR_I2C3_FIXME=y. Please try that and let me know if that
> solves your problem."
>
> That is lost in the 100's of emails on dev and I see no connect with
> commit@apache.org. Things are IDLE there now because there is
> workflow requirment document in place and because of the holiday. But
> when things get functional again, if ever, there will be hundreds of
> messages there to. None of them related to "How I solve my
> STM32Fxxx-Foobar problem?"
>
> Basic we are making the decision to screw the end user in favor of
> rules and process. I concede that and will not bring it up again.
Per https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/, these incubator projects
all have a user or users email list:
ariatosca
cmda
daffodil
druid
flagon
gearpump
gobblin
heron
hivemail
iota
milagro
mrql
mxnet
openaz
pinot
ponymail
quickstep
ratis
s2graph
samoa
sirona
taverna
tuweni
weex
zipkin
That (I think) is most of the incubator projects. I don't understand
exactly why we are being discriminated against when this is common
practice for most other incubator projects.
Greg
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>.
> Basic we are making the decision to screw the end user in favor of
> rules and process. I concede that and will not bring it up again.
It is not just this. We are advocating other things that effect the
end-user and the usability of NuttX. It is sad, because NuttX has
always been a user-oriented project.
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>.
On 12/25/2019 5:58 PM, Justin Mclean wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> I think the idea has been nix'ed by Justin. So I am not going to pursue this. Others may want to buck the system, but I have already caused enough problems.
> How so? We already have a seperate commits@nuttx.apache.org list which is working fine from what I can see.
I don't see the relevance of commits@nuttx.apache.org. It has nothing
do with the issue that is being addressed for the end user.
The issue for users who just want to ask for help. For example, "I am
using and STM32Fxxx-Foobar board. I enable I2C3 and I get this error
when trying to communicate with my GPS modem. Please help me?" And a
response might be something like, "Oh, I think you need to enable
CONFIG_FOOBAR_I2C3_FIXME=y. Please try that and let me know if that
solves your problem."
That is lost in the 100's of emails on dev and I see no connect with
commit@apache.org. Things are IDLE there now because there is workflow
requirment document in place and because of the holiday. But when
things get functional again, if ever, there will be hundreds of messages
there to. None of them related to "How I solve my STM32Fxxx-Foobar
problem?"
Basic we are making the decision to screw the end user in favor of rules
and process. I concede that and will not bring it up again.
Greg
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> I think the idea has been nix'ed by Justin. So I am not going to pursue this. Others may want to buck the system, but I have already caused enough problems.
How so? We already have a seperate commits@nuttx.apache.org list which is working fine from what I can see.
Thanks,
Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
Some previous discussions for you consideration:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/a1811e65e31dbd551b2da7429a7617359523cbc5c969827c9a908a6a%40%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/e7be60b4fa3086aaa30eb2b09ec990d807bd8cc03256829fe6651276%401283929842%40%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
I suggest you look though the general@ archives as you find a lot more on this and other subjects.
Thanks,
Justin
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>.
I'm ok with the way it is right now– once NuttX graduates from incubator
status we can make changes if needed. I understand Justin's points about
the utility of keeping the lists all in one for now.
cheers
adam
On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 3:54 PM Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > especially for the commits and notifications, so they can be filtered.
> I'm
> > ok with separate lists for commits and notifications, I just want them to
> > be separate from the lists meant for humans :)
>
> I think the idea has been nix'ed by Justin. So I am not going to pursue
> this. Others may want to buck the system, but I have already caused
> enough problems.
>
>
>
--
Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>.
> +1
>
> especially for the commits and notifications, so they can be filtered. I'm
> ok with separate lists for commits and notifications, I just want them to
> be separate from the lists meant for humans :)
I think the idea has been nix'ed by Justin. So I am not going to pursue
this. Others may want to buck the system, but I have already caused
enough problems.
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>.
+1
especially for the commits and notifications, so they can be filtered. I'm
ok with separate lists for commits and notifications, I just want them to
be separate from the lists meant for humans :)
On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 9:01 AM Alin Jerpelea <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1
> this will remove the noise for most users
>
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 17:27 David Sidrane <Da...@nscdg.com> wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > >* notifications@nuttx.apache.org: For all notifications from GitHub,
> > GitBox, Confluence, Jira, etc., etc., etc.
> >
> > But I would separates commits@ from notifications@
> >
> > I made similar suggestions but it appears flood has swept away the key
> > points.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nathan Hartman [mailto:hartman.nathan@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 7:16 AM
> > To: dev@nuttx.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: User Email Account
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 9:34 AM Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > There have been quite a few NuttX users who have been put of by the
> > > volume and content of emails on this list. December is not quite over
> > > and there have been close to 850 emails so far this month. And the
> > > majority of the community is only interested is discussion technical
> > > issues and do not even care about the project-oriented content.
> > >
> > > So I wonder, would it be good to have a user@nuttx.apache.org mail
> list
> > > just for user-facing questions? I see that many other projects have
> > > such an email account. This would allow people to have simple
> > > discussions about the OS without the organizational/political content.
> > > Such an email would be a replacement for the Google email list.
> > > dev@nuttx.apache.org is not.
> > >
> > > Does this sound like good idea? Or should should we continue to force
> > > users to wad through 100s of emails that they do not way to see?
> >
> > Yes, we didn't anticipate so many emails!
> >
> > It's good that we have a lot of participation but we did get quite a
> > few complaints about volume.
> >
> > Perhaps an arrangement like this would allow people to take control of
> > the situation:
> >
> > * dev@nuttx.apache.org: For development of NuttX itself, including
> > organizational discussions.
> >
> > * user@nuttx.apache.org: For users of NuttX, who are usually
> > developers themselves, but they're downstream developers who use NuttX
> > in other products.
> >
> > * notifications@nuttx.apache.org: For all notifications from GitHub,
> > GitBox, Confluence, Jira, etc., etc., etc.
> >
> > (By the way, I expect that once the dust settles, we have consensus on
> > a workflow, and we "find our groove," the volume of organizational
> > emails should drop substantially and most emails on dev will center
> > around technical discussions once again. But it might take a while...)
> >
> > Thoughts?
> > Nathan
> >
>
--
Adam Feuer <ad...@starcat.io>
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Alin Jerpelea <je...@gmail.com>.
+1
this will remove the noise for most users
On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 17:27 David Sidrane <Da...@nscdg.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> >* notifications@nuttx.apache.org: For all notifications from GitHub,
> GitBox, Confluence, Jira, etc., etc., etc.
>
> But I would separates commits@ from notifications@
>
> I made similar suggestions but it appears flood has swept away the key
> points.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathan Hartman [mailto:hartman.nathan@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 7:16 AM
> To: dev@nuttx.apache.org
> Subject: Re: User Email Account
>
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 9:34 AM Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > There have been quite a few NuttX users who have been put of by the
> > volume and content of emails on this list. December is not quite over
> > and there have been close to 850 emails so far this month. And the
> > majority of the community is only interested is discussion technical
> > issues and do not even care about the project-oriented content.
> >
> > So I wonder, would it be good to have a user@nuttx.apache.org mail list
> > just for user-facing questions? I see that many other projects have
> > such an email account. This would allow people to have simple
> > discussions about the OS without the organizational/political content.
> > Such an email would be a replacement for the Google email list.
> > dev@nuttx.apache.org is not.
> >
> > Does this sound like good idea? Or should should we continue to force
> > users to wad through 100s of emails that they do not way to see?
>
> Yes, we didn't anticipate so many emails!
>
> It's good that we have a lot of participation but we did get quite a
> few complaints about volume.
>
> Perhaps an arrangement like this would allow people to take control of
> the situation:
>
> * dev@nuttx.apache.org: For development of NuttX itself, including
> organizational discussions.
>
> * user@nuttx.apache.org: For users of NuttX, who are usually
> developers themselves, but they're downstream developers who use NuttX
> in other products.
>
> * notifications@nuttx.apache.org: For all notifications from GitHub,
> GitBox, Confluence, Jira, etc., etc., etc.
>
> (By the way, I expect that once the dust settles, we have consensus on
> a workflow, and we "find our groove," the volume of organizational
> emails should drop substantially and most emails on dev will center
> around technical discussions once again. But it might take a while...)
>
> Thoughts?
> Nathan
>
RE: User Email Account
Posted by David Sidrane <Da...@nscdg.com>.
+1
>* notifications@nuttx.apache.org: For all notifications from GitHub,
GitBox, Confluence, Jira, etc., etc., etc.
But I would separates commits@ from notifications@
I made similar suggestions but it appears flood has swept away the key
points.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Hartman [mailto:hartman.nathan@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 7:16 AM
To: dev@nuttx.apache.org
Subject: Re: User Email Account
On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 9:34 AM Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There have been quite a few NuttX users who have been put of by the
> volume and content of emails on this list. December is not quite over
> and there have been close to 850 emails so far this month. And the
> majority of the community is only interested is discussion technical
> issues and do not even care about the project-oriented content.
>
> So I wonder, would it be good to have a user@nuttx.apache.org mail list
> just for user-facing questions? I see that many other projects have
> such an email account. This would allow people to have simple
> discussions about the OS without the organizational/political content.
> Such an email would be a replacement for the Google email list.
> dev@nuttx.apache.org is not.
>
> Does this sound like good idea? Or should should we continue to force
> users to wad through 100s of emails that they do not way to see?
Yes, we didn't anticipate so many emails!
It's good that we have a lot of participation but we did get quite a
few complaints about volume.
Perhaps an arrangement like this would allow people to take control of
the situation:
* dev@nuttx.apache.org: For development of NuttX itself, including
organizational discussions.
* user@nuttx.apache.org: For users of NuttX, who are usually
developers themselves, but they're downstream developers who use NuttX
in other products.
* notifications@nuttx.apache.org: For all notifications from GitHub,
GitBox, Confluence, Jira, etc., etc., etc.
(By the way, I expect that once the dust settles, we have consensus on
a workflow, and we "find our groove," the volume of organizational
emails should drop substantially and most emails on dev will center
around technical discussions once again. But it might take a while...)
Thoughts?
Nathan
Re: User Email Account
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 9:34 AM Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There have been quite a few NuttX users who have been put of by the
> volume and content of emails on this list. December is not quite over
> and there have been close to 850 emails so far this month. And the
> majority of the community is only interested is discussion technical
> issues and do not even care about the project-oriented content.
>
> So I wonder, would it be good to have a user@nuttx.apache.org mail list
> just for user-facing questions? I see that many other projects have
> such an email account. This would allow people to have simple
> discussions about the OS without the organizational/political content.
> Such an email would be a replacement for the Google email list.
> dev@nuttx.apache.org is not.
>
> Does this sound like good idea? Or should should we continue to force
> users to wad through 100s of emails that they do not way to see?
Yes, we didn't anticipate so many emails!
It's good that we have a lot of participation but we did get quite a
few complaints about volume.
Perhaps an arrangement like this would allow people to take control of
the situation:
* dev@nuttx.apache.org: For development of NuttX itself, including
organizational discussions.
* user@nuttx.apache.org: For users of NuttX, who are usually
developers themselves, but they're downstream developers who use NuttX
in other products.
* notifications@nuttx.apache.org: For all notifications from GitHub,
GitBox, Confluence, Jira, etc., etc., etc.
(By the way, I expect that once the dust settles, we have consensus on
a workflow, and we "find our groove," the volume of organizational
emails should drop substantially and most emails on dev will center
around technical discussions once again. But it might take a while...)
Thoughts?
Nathan