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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> on 2013/06/04 00:35:20 UTC
[VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Staring a [VOTE][DISCUSS] thread parallel to the [VOTE] thread.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
.
.
.
>
> My comments with some very preliminary testing: the VERY LIGHT gray
> "Apache" in any form doesn't scale well going smaller. The very thin
> letters also don't scale well going smaller.
>
How did you scale the image? By resizing the PNG file? If so that
probably doesn't give the optimal quality. If we resize from the SVG
source, and if the SVG references a vector font with "hinting", then
it is possible that the text will be clearer at smaller sizes. In
theory that should help with the letter scaling. Not sure about the
light gray.
-Rob
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Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Posted by Dave Barton <db...@tasit.net>.
-------- Original Message --------
From: Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org <de...@openoffice.apache.org>, Dennis
Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 08:45:32 -0400
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <or...@apache.org> wrote:
>> I think if the "Apache" is made thicker by using Bold and a touch darker grey, it will work much better, at least as positioned in the Rottensteiner Stage 2 refinement. It also gives "Apache" more (symbolic) weight without overpowering the "OpenOffice" part.
>>
>> I agree one wants to use the best of resampled PNG and regenerated SVG at the lower size. Also, if the SVG has hints about the visually-intended size (at whatever pixel resolution), the fonts may be adjusted automatically to avoid excessive thinning at smaller presentation sizes. Then there are the tricks needed when rasterization also becomes significant.
>>
>
> Right. And I hope that no one thinks that we're voting for pixels
> carved in marble. We're voting on a design. I'd expect ordinary
> technical adjustments to be made to suit the scale and medium of a
> particular use. It should feel the same to a user, of course. That's
> the advantage of having the vector source to a logo. With the current
> logo it has been difficult to work with, since we only have the orb as
> a bitmap.
>
> -Rob
Maybe I am missing something here (very possible), but I have the
current logo and a couple of variants in svg format. If required I would
be happy to upload them.
If someone would be kind enough to advise me how to create a public html
page ~bmcs (like https://people.apache.org/~arielch/), I will put all
the OOo & AOO related svg images I have collected there.
Dave
>> - Dennis
>>
>> I don't have enough personal knowledge about SVG implementations and font hinting (although Adobe has information about it). I do know that Knuth had to introduce anomorphic scaling into his fonts because the smaller ones would become visually too thin at the smaller point sizes if simply scaled geometrically. It's a human vision thing. He was producing images for production publishing systems and had a luxury of pixels; there was more involved that nudging pixel alignments.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.schenk@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2013 04:54 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Staring a [VOTE][DISCUSS] thread parallel to the [VOTE] thread.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> My comments with some very preliminary testing: the VERY LIGHT gray
>>>> "Apache" in any form doesn't scale well going smaller. The very thin
>>>> letters also don't scale well going smaller.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How did you scale the image? By resizing the PNG file? If so that
>>> probably doesn't give the optimal quality.
>>
>>
>> yes, this is what I did...
>>
>>
>>> If we resize from the SVG
>>> source, and if the SVG references a vector font with "hinting", then
>>> it is possible that the text will be clearer at smaller sizes. In
>>> theory that should help with the letter scaling. Not sure about the
>>> light gray.
>>>
>>
>> Well maybe someone could resize appropriately. Our current "web" logo is
>> only 200 x 100. I actually used 300 x ??? (kept the aspect ratio) and
>> things were not great on any of these with that very light gray
>> "Apache"...even slightly darker would help I think.
>>
>>
>>> -Rob
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Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 04/06/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Dave Barton wrote:
>>>
>>> If someone would be kind enough to advise me how to create a public html
>>> page ~bmcs (like https://people.apache.org/~arielch/), I will put all
>>> the OOo& AOO related svg images I have collected there.
>
>
> It corresponds to a public_html folder that you can create in your home
> directory, on the people.apache.org machine that you access with your
> committer credentials. See
> https://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide#ssh-setup
>
>
>> Could you check what you have? I have a version as well, where there
>> is an SVG, but the SVG merely points to a bitmap image for the orb and
>> gulls. So not really pure SVG. If you have something that is
>> entirely SVG, feel free to send it along and I can check it into SVN
>> for you.
>
>
> Limited to the orb, the best version we have is
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27834483/ApacheOpenOfficeTM.svg
> (where we have a pure vector orb; the font is wrong so it's not used
> elsewhere).
>
That is described as "a very rough freehand demonstration of the
concept knocked up in five minutes using Inkscape". It is also
deleted.
As far as I can tell, we don't have any vector version of the current logo.
-Rob
> See http://www.mail-archive.com/ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org/msg26911.html
> for more.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
>
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Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 04/06/2013 Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Dave Barton wrote:
>> If someone would be kind enough to advise me how to create a public html
>> page ~bmcs (like https://people.apache.org/~arielch/), I will put all
>> the OOo& AOO related svg images I have collected there.
It corresponds to a public_html folder that you can create in your home
directory, on the people.apache.org machine that you access with your
committer credentials. See
https://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide#ssh-setup
> Could you check what you have? I have a version as well, where there
> is an SVG, but the SVG merely points to a bitmap image for the orb and
> gulls. So not really pure SVG. If you have something that is
> entirely SVG, feel free to send it along and I can check it into SVN
> for you.
Limited to the orb, the best version we have is
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27834483/ApacheOpenOfficeTM.svg
(where we have a pure vector orb; the font is wrong so it's not used
elsewhere).
See
http://www.mail-archive.com/ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org/msg26911.html
for more.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Dave Barton <db...@tasit.net> wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org <de...@openoffice.apache.org>, Dennis
> Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 08:45:32 -0400
>
>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <or...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> I think if the "Apache" is made thicker by using Bold and a touch darker grey, it will work much better, at least as positioned in the Rottensteiner Stage 2 refinement. It also gives "Apache" more (symbolic) weight without overpowering the "OpenOffice" part.
>>>
>>> I agree one wants to use the best of resampled PNG and regenerated SVG at the lower size. Also, if the SVG has hints about the visually-intended size (at whatever pixel resolution), the fonts may be adjusted automatically to avoid excessive thinning at smaller presentation sizes. Then there are the tricks needed when rasterization also becomes significant.
>>>
>>
>> Right. And I hope that no one thinks that we're voting for pixels
>> carved in marble. We're voting on a design. I'd expect ordinary
>> technical adjustments to be made to suit the scale and medium of a
>> particular use. It should feel the same to a user, of course. That's
>> the advantage of having the vector source to a logo. With the current
>> logo it has been difficult to work with, since we only have the orb as
>> a bitmap.
>>
>> -Rob
>
> Maybe I am missing something here (very possible), but I have the
> current logo and a couple of variants in svg format. If required I would
> be happy to upload them.
>
> If someone would be kind enough to advise me how to create a public html
> page ~bmcs (like https://people.apache.org/~arielch/), I will put all
> the OOo & AOO related svg images I have collected there.
>
Could you check what you have? I have a version as well, where there
is an SVG, but the SVG merely points to a bitmap image for the orb and
gulls. So not really pure SVG. If you have something that is
entirely SVG, feel free to send it along and I can check it into SVN
for you.
-Rob
> Dave
>
>>> - Dennis
>>>
>>> I don't have enough personal knowledge about SVG implementations and font hinting (although Adobe has information about it). I do know that Knuth had to introduce anomorphic scaling into his fonts because the smaller ones would become visually too thin at the smaller point sizes if simply scaled geometrically. It's a human vision thing. He was producing images for production publishing systems and had a luxury of pixels; there was more involved that nudging pixel alignments.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.schenk@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2013 04:54 PM
>>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Staring a [VOTE][DISCUSS] thread parallel to the [VOTE] thread.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> My comments with some very preliminary testing: the VERY LIGHT gray
>>>>> "Apache" in any form doesn't scale well going smaller. The very thin
>>>>> letters also don't scale well going smaller.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How did you scale the image? By resizing the PNG file? If so that
>>>> probably doesn't give the optimal quality.
>>>
>>>
>>> yes, this is what I did...
>>>
>>>
>>>> If we resize from the SVG
>>>> source, and if the SVG references a vector font with "hinting", then
>>>> it is possible that the text will be clearer at smaller sizes. In
>>>> theory that should help with the letter scaling. Not sure about the
>>>> light gray.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well maybe someone could resize appropriately. Our current "web" logo is
>>> only 200 x 100. I actually used 300 x ??? (kept the aspect ratio) and
>>> things were not great on any of these with that very light gray
>>> "Apache"...even slightly darker would help I think.
>>>
>>>
>>>> -Rob
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
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Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Posted by Dave Barton <db...@tasit.net>.
-------- Original Message --------
From: Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org <de...@openoffice.apache.org>, Dennis
Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 08:45:32 -0400
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <or...@apache.org> wrote:
>> I think if the "Apache" is made thicker by using Bold and a touch darker grey, it will work much better, at least as positioned in the Rottensteiner Stage 2 refinement. It also gives "Apache" more (symbolic) weight without overpowering the "OpenOffice" part.
>>
>> I agree one wants to use the best of resampled PNG and regenerated SVG at the lower size. Also, if the SVG has hints about the visually-intended size (at whatever pixel resolution), the fonts may be adjusted automatically to avoid excessive thinning at smaller presentation sizes. Then there are the tricks needed when rasterization also becomes significant.
>>
>
> Right. And I hope that no one thinks that we're voting for pixels
> carved in marble. We're voting on a design. I'd expect ordinary
> technical adjustments to be made to suit the scale and medium of a
> particular use. It should feel the same to a user, of course. That's
> the advantage of having the vector source to a logo. With the current
> logo it has been difficult to work with, since we only have the orb as
> a bitmap.
>
> -Rob
Maybe I am missing something here (very possible), but I have the
current logo and a couple of variants in svg format. If required I would
be happy to upload them.
If someone would be kind enough to advise me how to create a public html
page ~bmcs (like https://people.apache.org/~arielch/), I will put all
the OOo & AOO related svg images I have collected there.
Dave
>> - Dennis
>>
>> I don't have enough personal knowledge about SVG implementations and font hinting (although Adobe has information about it). I do know that Knuth had to introduce anomorphic scaling into his fonts because the smaller ones would become visually too thin at the smaller point sizes if simply scaled geometrically. It's a human vision thing. He was producing images for production publishing systems and had a luxury of pixels; there was more involved that nudging pixel alignments.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.schenk@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2013 04:54 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Staring a [VOTE][DISCUSS] thread parallel to the [VOTE] thread.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> My comments with some very preliminary testing: the VERY LIGHT gray
>>>> "Apache" in any form doesn't scale well going smaller. The very thin
>>>> letters also don't scale well going smaller.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How did you scale the image? By resizing the PNG file? If so that
>>> probably doesn't give the optimal quality.
>>
>>
>> yes, this is what I did...
>>
>>
>>> If we resize from the SVG
>>> source, and if the SVG references a vector font with "hinting", then
>>> it is possible that the text will be clearer at smaller sizes. In
>>> theory that should help with the letter scaling. Not sure about the
>>> light gray.
>>>
>>
>> Well maybe someone could resize appropriately. Our current "web" logo is
>> only 200 x 100. I actually used 300 x ??? (kept the aspect ratio) and
>> things were not great on any of these with that very light gray
>> "Apache"...even slightly darker would help I think.
>>
>>
>>> -Rob
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Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <or...@apache.org> wrote:
> I think if the "Apache" is made thicker by using Bold and a touch darker grey, it will work much better, at least as positioned in the Rottensteiner Stage 2 refinement. It also gives "Apache" more (symbolic) weight without overpowering the "OpenOffice" part.
>
> I agree one wants to use the best of resampled PNG and regenerated SVG at the lower size. Also, if the SVG has hints about the visually-intended size (at whatever pixel resolution), the fonts may be adjusted automatically to avoid excessive thinning at smaller presentation sizes. Then there are the tricks needed when rasterization also becomes significant.
>
Right. And I hope that no one thinks that we're voting for pixels
carved in marble. We're voting on a design. I'd expect ordinary
technical adjustments to be made to suit the scale and medium of a
particular use. It should feel the same to a user, of course. That's
the advantage of having the vector source to a logo. With the current
logo it has been difficult to work with, since we only have the orb as
a bitmap.
-Rob
> - Dennis
>
> I don't have enough personal knowledge about SVG implementations and font hinting (although Adobe has information about it). I do know that Knuth had to introduce anomorphic scaling into his fonts because the smaller ones would become visually too thin at the smaller point sizes if simply scaled geometrically. It's a human vision thing. He was producing images for production publishing systems and had a luxury of pixels; there was more involved that nudging pixel alignments.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.schenk@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2013 04:54 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Staring a [VOTE][DISCUSS] thread parallel to the [VOTE] thread.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> >
>> > My comments with some very preliminary testing: the VERY LIGHT gray
>> > "Apache" in any form doesn't scale well going smaller. The very thin
>> > letters also don't scale well going smaller.
>> >
>>
>> How did you scale the image? By resizing the PNG file? If so that
>> probably doesn't give the optimal quality.
>
>
> yes, this is what I did...
>
>
>> If we resize from the SVG
>> source, and if the SVG references a vector font with "hinting", then
>> it is possible that the text will be clearer at smaller sizes. In
>> theory that should help with the letter scaling. Not sure about the
>> light gray.
>>
>
> Well maybe someone could resize appropriately. Our current "web" logo is
> only 200 x 100. I actually used 300 x ??? (kept the aspect ratio) and
> things were not great on any of these with that very light gray
> "Apache"...even slightly darker would help I think.
>
>
>> -Rob
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> "You can't believe one thing and do another.
> What you believe and what you do are the same thing."
> -- Leonard Peltier
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
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RE: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org>.
I think if the "Apache" is made thicker by using Bold and a touch darker grey, it will work much better, at least as positioned in the Rottensteiner Stage 2 refinement. It also gives "Apache" more (symbolic) weight without overpowering the "OpenOffice" part.
I agree one wants to use the best of resampled PNG and regenerated SVG at the lower size. Also, if the SVG has hints about the visually-intended size (at whatever pixel resolution), the fonts may be adjusted automatically to avoid excessive thinning at smaller presentation sizes. Then there are the tricks needed when rasterization also becomes significant.
- Dennis
I don't have enough personal knowledge about SVG implementations and font hinting (although Adobe has information about it). I do know that Knuth had to introduce anomorphic scaling into his fonts because the smaller ones would become visually too thin at the smaller point sizes if simply scaled geometrically. It's a human vision thing. He was producing images for production publishing systems and had a luxury of pixels; there was more involved that nudging pixel alignments.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.schenk@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2013 04:54 PM
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> Staring a [VOTE][DISCUSS] thread parallel to the [VOTE] thread.
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> .
> .
> .
> >
> > My comments with some very preliminary testing: the VERY LIGHT gray
> > "Apache" in any form doesn't scale well going smaller. The very thin
> > letters also don't scale well going smaller.
> >
>
> How did you scale the image? By resizing the PNG file? If so that
> probably doesn't give the optimal quality.
yes, this is what I did...
> If we resize from the SVG
> source, and if the SVG references a vector font with "hinting", then
> it is possible that the text will be clearer at smaller sizes. In
> theory that should help with the letter scaling. Not sure about the
> light gray.
>
Well maybe someone could resize appropriately. Our current "web" logo is
only 200 x 100. I actually used 300 x ??? (kept the aspect ratio) and
things were not great on any of these with that very light gray
"Apache"...even slightly darker would help I think.
> -Rob
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"You can't believe one thing and do another.
What you believe and what you do are the same thing."
-- Leonard Peltier
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Re: [VOTE][DISCUSS] Logo selection for Apache OpenOffice 4.0
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> Staring a [VOTE][DISCUSS] thread parallel to the [VOTE] thread.
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> .
> .
> .
> >
> > My comments with some very preliminary testing: the VERY LIGHT gray
> > "Apache" in any form doesn't scale well going smaller. The very thin
> > letters also don't scale well going smaller.
> >
>
> How did you scale the image? By resizing the PNG file? If so that
> probably doesn't give the optimal quality.
yes, this is what I did...
> If we resize from the SVG
> source, and if the SVG references a vector font with "hinting", then
> it is possible that the text will be clearer at smaller sizes. In
> theory that should help with the letter scaling. Not sure about the
> light gray.
>
Well maybe someone could resize appropriately. Our current "web" logo is
only 200 x 100. I actually used 300 x ??? (kept the aspect ratio) and
things were not great on any of these with that very light gray
"Apache"...even slightly darker would help I think.
> -Rob
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"You can't believe one thing and do another.
What you believe and what you do are the same thing."
-- Leonard Peltier