[DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

All,

It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator. Thank
you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
much of this falls on me.

My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and be
independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
reasons:

Infrastructure:

AAA
I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I got
back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to google
around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.

Releases:
The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn release:clean
&& mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign up
takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign of
health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven steps,
generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote on
the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to an
svn directory.

That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and other
manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed. For
me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net result
is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release is
just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process and I
only did it because it is the only way.

Community:
Apache incubator is about building communities.
Mailing list
The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.

Jira
Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users have
to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and attracting
contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
that.

GIT
Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
merge button)

Updating the site:
Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
like the release process)

Reports
I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never great
with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
month category.

The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq, I
went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the incubator
list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another huge
time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
review.

Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache TLPs
have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant thing
for some....

So lets get out of here.

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

"At the end of the day, I haven't seen an email to this list that wasn't a
podling report request in months. I actually stopped hounding Ed personally
because it had become a regular thing. There is absolutely no shame in
saying that Gossip is not ready for the ASF. I'd really encourage you all
to take a step back and think about that. I honestly think moving to Github
would make you all much happier, and, an eventual move to the Incubator
again later, would be that much easier (knowing what goes into it)."

By the way Josh. I totally agree with alot of what your saying and always
appreciate your help. Also was not expecting anyone to build the community
for me. But it is not about shame/pride. Someone just called a vote on
this, and a few people other then myself -1 ed the vote.  It was very
disheartening to go start writing the report July 2nd, and just happen upon
another incubator convo about ending the gossip project.

I hang around the apache community a lot and anecdotally I know the status
of a number of podlings. But I decided to around some other podlings, there
was one that started in the incubator in 2013 and has not had a commit for
7 months. It feels a bit arbitrary to me, maybe I am biased maybe not.



On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:

> I won't rehash the comments on the more frequent reporting and
> shepherding. I think they were appropriately answered already on
> general@incubator (sorry if the CC to this list was dropped).
>
> I want to address the notion that mentors or other ASF members are here to
> build communities. We're not.
>
> We're here to provide guardrails to try to build healthy communities.
> We're here to help with technical challenges in getting your software
> lifecycle up on ASF infrastructure. We're here to help with the legal
> challenges of software licensing and copyright. We're here to be human
> mentors for when there are questions about interpersonal issues or
> attracting new people.
>
> We're not here to build the community for you.
>
> At the end of the day, I haven't seen an email to this list that wasn't a
> podling report request in months. I actually stopped hounding Ed personally
> because it had become a regular thing. There is absolutely no shame in
> saying that Gossip is not ready for the ASF. I'd really encourage you all
> to take a step back and think about that. I honestly think moving to Github
> would make you all much happier, and, an eventual move to the Incubator
> again later, would be that much easier (knowing what goes into it).
>
> On 7/5/18 1:00 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>
>> The challenge with this process is Apache claims to be about "building
>> communities", but you do not have great tools to do that. A number of
>> apache projects are propped up by some for profit company who just pays
>> people to work on that thing all the time.
>>
>> I asked for 3 months (normal reporting cycle) to re-evaluate and have a
>> legit chance at re-bootstrapping. I go to write up the report (which are
>> now suddenly due every month that no one discussed with me). The report
>> due
>> July 4th a US holiday. I go to write the report find a convo in the
>> incubator about how people want to close up the podling because they can
>> not even wait to see if I actually get the report in or not.
>>
>> Meanwhile the project had this "shepard" who never signed off a report and
>> his first interaction with the ML was to vote on shutting down the
>> podling.
>> Great job "building communities".
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Ed,
>>>
>>> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The Incubator
>>> is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects like you
>>> outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink because there
>>> isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
>>>
>>> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
>>> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you (the
>>> sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from actually
>>> producing software.
>>>
>>> +1 from me
>>>
>>> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>>
>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator.
>>>> Thank
>>>> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
>>>> much of this falls on me.
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and
>>>> be
>>>> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
>>>> reasons:
>>>>
>>>> Infrastructure:
>>>>
>>>> AAA
>>>> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
>>>> got
>>>> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to
>>>> google
>>>> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
>>>> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
>>>>
>>>> Releases:
>>>> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn
>>>> release:clean
>>>> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign
>>>> up
>>>> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign
>>>> of
>>>> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
>>>> steps,
>>>> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote
>>>> on
>>>> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to
>>>> an
>>>> svn directory.
>>>>
>>>> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and
>>>> other
>>>> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
>>>> For
>>>> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net
>>>> result
>>>> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release
>>>> is
>>>> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process
>>>> and
>>>> I
>>>> only did it because it is the only way.
>>>>
>>>> Community:
>>>> Apache incubator is about building communities.
>>>> Mailing list
>>>> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
>>>> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
>>>>
>>>> Jira
>>>> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
>>>> have
>>>> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
>>>> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
>>>> attracting
>>>> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
>>>> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> GIT
>>>> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
>>>> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
>>>> merge button)
>>>>
>>>> Updating the site:
>>>> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
>>>> like the release process)
>>>>
>>>> Reports
>>>> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
>>>> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never
>>>> great
>>>> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
>>>> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
>>>> month category.
>>>>
>>>> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq,
>>>> I
>>>> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
>>>> incubator
>>>> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another
>>>> huge
>>>> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
>>>> review.
>>>>
>>>> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache
>>>> TLPs
>>>> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant
>>>> thing
>>>> for some....
>>>>
>>>> So lets get out of here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

Sree,

I appreciate your input and the work you did building the docs.

The docs are yet another challenge for the project. In particular I tried
this a few times before. I was unable to build the docs on my system and I
was unable to build the docs on the ASF hardware where I can have a shell
account. I am not trying to say the process was impossible to figure out,
IE I am sure if I spent a few hours here and there installing Ruby and JDK
6 (which the process seemed to require). I could have gotten it working.
However the overall theme is that since you set up the docs, no one has
done anything to them accept making small changes when our releases were
done.

I was not super eager to move out because most people do not realized that
back in the day I had to go schedule a "key signing party". Literally, I
had to have web video conference with P. Taylor, we waved our drivers
license back and forth at each other just, so he can sign my key, so I can
get the first release out the door.  Also during the move I had to create
JIRA tickets and get myself the right "karma" just do execute step x or
step y. Yes, I devoted a lot of time into the project. Including mentioning
two GSOC students last year, but it is a 'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME
LATELY?' world.

Understandably the incubator PMC sees low/no activity and the project, and
that is undeniable.  For the project to be healthy it needs be able to
survive independent of a single person. It can not be promises to do
something later.

I do believe this would be easier outside of the incubator, ie pull
requests, one click merge, adding a collaborator with an invite vs voting,
sending singing, ICLA.

If we want to stick out the incubator the proof is in the pudding. We have
several open tickets currently that range from trivially to complex
https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/GOSSIP/issues/GOSSIP-35?filter=allopenissues.
Lets get things reviewed and merged, before next report which is  < 1 month
away. Chandresh and myself have commit and authoritative +1 others can
attach unofficial +1 to reviews.  If we are rolling up on the report date
and we do not have serious activity that speaks for itself.



On Sun, Jul 8, 2018, 2:12 PM chandresh pancholi <chandreshpancholi007@gmail.
com> wrote:

> Agree with Sree.
>
> On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:51 PM Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Edward,
> > Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip
> website
> > with the help of Josh.
> > I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
> >
> > Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to take
> > Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
> >
> > You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean
> > request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
> >
> >
> > "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always
> worked
> > historically.
> >
> >
> > Thank you.Sree Vaddi
> > 650.213.2707 M
> >
> >
> >     On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
> elserj@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >  On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> > > Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
> > >
> > >
> > > So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down
> the
> > > entire incubator.
> >
> > While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
> > Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
> > is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
> > honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
> > easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Chandresh Pancholi
> Senior Software Engineer
> Flipkart.com
> Email-id:chandresh.pancholi@flipkart.com
> Contact:08951803660
>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[chandresh pancholi <ch...@gmail.com>]

Agree with Sree.

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 8:51 PM Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.invalid>
wrote:

> Hi Edward,
> Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip website
> with the help of Josh.
> I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
>
> Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to take
> Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
>
> You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean
> request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
>
>
> "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always worked
> historically.
>
>
> Thank you.Sree Vaddi
> 650.213.2707 M
>
>
>     On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>  On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> > Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
> >
> >
> > So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down the
> > entire incubator.
>
> While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
> Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
> is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
> honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
> easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
>



-- 
Chandresh Pancholi
Senior Software Engineer
Flipkart.com
Email-id:chandresh.pancholi@flipkart.com
Contact:08951803660

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Josh Elser <jo...@gmail.com>]

Thanks, Taylor. Just started a new thread for a dev-list VOTE.

On 8/6/18 12:05 PM, P. Taylor Goetz wrote:
> We should start with a retirement vote on dev@. If that passes, we move on to a IPMC vote on retirement.
> 
> Once that’s done, there are a few administrative steps that need to be done. [1]
> 
> -Taylor
> 
> [1] https://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
> 
>> On Aug 6, 2018, at 11:20 AM, Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes. Let figure out the steps.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Josh Elser <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Should I help by looking at what actually needs to be done to retire?
>>> Seems like we're back in the same exact state :)
>>>
>>> I'd rather us focus efforts on retiring than writing yet another incubator
>>> report that says "nothing happened".
>>>
>>> On 7/25/18 1:29 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>>
>>>> To follow up on this.
>>>>
>>>> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in a
>>>> month".
>>>>
>>>> No activity has happened. The board reports are due soon, I would rather
>>>> not write another report to summarize no activity. We should start the
>>>> vote
>>>> to shut down now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Edward,
>>>>> I am not aware of the difficulty in setting up the website or continuous
>>>>> modifications to it.If you feel so, you may make a motion for an
>>>>> alternate
>>>>> solutions (eg. git pages, ...) and link to 'gossip.incubator.apache.org
>>>>> '.And
>>>>> Apache.org is allowing it, now. Similar to, https://apache.github.io/
>>>>> incubator-heron/
>>>>> It would be a one time task.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in
>>>>> a
>>>>> month".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Josh,
>>>>> You have been very helpful so far.  And I appreciate that,
>>>>> personally.Please suggest a replacement or ad-hoc help that can set us in
>>>>> motion for the next few months, until we streamline.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Edward/Team,
>>>>> I am proposing a meetup event for kick start, again.A hackathon style,
>>>>> that would add to our code base.
>>>>> Josh came forward honestly. Thank you. Let us go through the rest of the
>>>>> names assigned to gossip and find out their level of contributions to
>>>>> gossip.And may be find alternatives or announce open positions.That
>>>>> should
>>>>> attract contributors to gossip.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.Sree
>>>>>
>>>>>      On Monday, July 9, 2018, 11:35:21 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
>>>>> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   I'd clarify that I don't consider myself to be a part of Gossip. I
>>>>> exist
>>>>> only to satisfy my obligations of being a mentor (and even that is
>>>>> difficult for me, most days).
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/8/18 11:21 AM, Sree V wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Edward,
>>>>>> Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip
>>>>>>
>>>>> website with the help of Josh.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to
>>>>>>
>>>>> take Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean
>>>>>>
>>>>> request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always
>>>>>>
>>>>> worked historically.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you.Sree Vaddi
>>>>>> 650.213.2707 M
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
>>>>>>
>>>>> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> entire incubator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
>>>>>> Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
>>>>>> is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
>>>>>> honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
>>>>>> easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

["P. Taylor Goetz" <pt...@gmail.com>]

We should start with a retirement vote on dev@. If that passes, we move on to a IPMC vote on retirement.

Once that’s done, there are a few administrative steps that need to be done. [1]

-Taylor

[1] https://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html

> On Aug 6, 2018, at 11:20 AM, Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes. Let figure out the steps.
> 
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Josh Elser <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Should I help by looking at what actually needs to be done to retire?
>> Seems like we're back in the same exact state :)
>> 
>> I'd rather us focus efforts on retiring than writing yet another incubator
>> report that says "nothing happened".
>> 
>> On 7/25/18 1:29 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>> 
>>> To follow up on this.
>>> 
>>> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in a
>>> month".
>>> 
>>> No activity has happened. The board reports are due soon, I would rather
>>> not write another report to summarize no activity. We should start the
>>> vote
>>> to shut down now.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Edward,
>>>> I am not aware of the difficulty in setting up the website or continuous
>>>> modifications to it.If you feel so, you may make a motion for an
>>>> alternate
>>>> solutions (eg. git pages, ...) and link to 'gossip.incubator.apache.org
>>>> '.And
>>>> Apache.org is allowing it, now. Similar to, https://apache.github.io/
>>>> incubator-heron/
>>>> It would be a one time task.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in
>>>> a
>>>> month".
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Josh,
>>>> You have been very helpful so far.  And I appreciate that,
>>>> personally.Please suggest a replacement or ad-hoc help that can set us in
>>>> motion for the next few months, until we streamline.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Edward/Team,
>>>> I am proposing a meetup event for kick start, again.A hackathon style,
>>>> that would add to our code base.
>>>> Josh came forward honestly. Thank you. Let us go through the rest of the
>>>> names assigned to gossip and find out their level of contributions to
>>>> gossip.And may be find alternatives or announce open positions.That
>>>> should
>>>> attract contributors to gossip.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you.Sree
>>>> 
>>>>     On Monday, July 9, 2018, 11:35:21 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
>>>> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  I'd clarify that I don't consider myself to be a part of Gossip. I
>>>> exist
>>>> only to satisfy my obligations of being a mentor (and even that is
>>>> difficult for me, most days).
>>>> 
>>>> On 7/8/18 11:21 AM, Sree V wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Edward,
>>>>> Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip
>>>>> 
>>>> website with the help of Josh.
>>>> 
>>>>> I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to
>>>>> 
>>>> take Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean
>>>>> 
>>>> request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always
>>>>> 
>>>> worked historically.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you.Sree Vaddi
>>>>> 650.213.2707 M
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>      On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
>>>>> 
>>>> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>  On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down
>>>>>> 
>>>>> the
>>>> 
>>>>> entire incubator.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
>>>>> Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
>>>>> is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
>>>>> honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
>>>>> easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

Yes. Let figure out the steps.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Josh Elser <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Should I help by looking at what actually needs to be done to retire?
> Seems like we're back in the same exact state :)
>
> I'd rather us focus efforts on retiring than writing yet another incubator
> report that says "nothing happened".
>
> On 7/25/18 1:29 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>
>> To follow up on this.
>>
>> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in a
>> month".
>>
>> No activity has happened. The board reports are due soon, I would rather
>> not write another report to summarize no activity. We should start the
>> vote
>> to shut down now.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Edward,
>>> I am not aware of the difficulty in setting up the website or continuous
>>> modifications to it.If you feel so, you may make a motion for an
>>> alternate
>>> solutions (eg. git pages, ...) and link to 'gossip.incubator.apache.org
>>> '.And
>>> Apache.org is allowing it, now. Similar to, https://apache.github.io/
>>> incubator-heron/
>>> It would be a one time task.
>>>
>>>
>>> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in
>>> a
>>> month".
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Josh,
>>> You have been very helpful so far.  And I appreciate that,
>>> personally.Please suggest a replacement or ad-hoc help that can set us in
>>> motion for the next few months, until we streamline.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Edward/Team,
>>> I am proposing a meetup event for kick start, again.A hackathon style,
>>> that would add to our code base.
>>> Josh came forward honestly. Thank you. Let us go through the rest of the
>>> names assigned to gossip and find out their level of contributions to
>>> gossip.And may be find alternatives or announce open positions.That
>>> should
>>> attract contributors to gossip.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you.Sree
>>>
>>>      On Monday, July 9, 2018, 11:35:21 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
>>> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>   I'd clarify that I don't consider myself to be a part of Gossip. I
>>> exist
>>> only to satisfy my obligations of being a mentor (and even that is
>>> difficult for me, most days).
>>>
>>> On 7/8/18 11:21 AM, Sree V wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Edward,
>>>> Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip
>>>>
>>> website with the help of Josh.
>>>
>>>> I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
>>>>
>>>> Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to
>>>>
>>> take Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean
>>>>
>>> request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always
>>>>
>>> worked historically.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.Sree Vaddi
>>>> 650.213.2707 M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
>>>>
>>> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>
>>>> entire incubator.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
>>>> Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
>>>> is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
>>>> honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
>>>> easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Josh Elser <jo...@gmail.com>]

Should I help by looking at what actually needs to be done to retire? 
Seems like we're back in the same exact state :)

I'd rather us focus efforts on retiring than writing yet another 
incubator report that says "nothing happened".

On 7/25/18 1:29 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> To follow up on this.
> 
> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in a
> month".
> 
> No activity has happened. The board reports are due soon, I would rather
> not write another report to summarize no activity. We should start the vote
> to shut down now.
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.invalid>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Edward,
>> I am not aware of the difficulty in setting up the website or continuous
>> modifications to it.If you feel so, you may make a motion for an alternate
>> solutions (eg. git pages, ...) and link to 'gossip.incubator.apache.org'.And
>> Apache.org is allowing it, now. Similar to, https://apache.github.io/
>> incubator-heron/
>> It would be a one time task.
>>
>>
>> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in a
>> month".
>>
>>
>> Hi Josh,
>> You have been very helpful so far.  And I appreciate that,
>> personally.Please suggest a replacement or ad-hoc help that can set us in
>> motion for the next few months, until we streamline.
>>
>>
>> Hi Edward/Team,
>> I am proposing a meetup event for kick start, again.A hackathon style,
>> that would add to our code base.
>> Josh came forward honestly. Thank you. Let us go through the rest of the
>> names assigned to gossip and find out their level of contributions to
>> gossip.And may be find alternatives or announce open positions.That should
>> attract contributors to gossip.
>>
>>
>> Thank you.Sree
>>
>>      On Monday, July 9, 2018, 11:35:21 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
>> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>   I'd clarify that I don't consider myself to be a part of Gossip. I exist
>> only to satisfy my obligations of being a mentor (and even that is
>> difficult for me, most days).
>>
>> On 7/8/18 11:21 AM, Sree V wrote:
>>> Hi Edward,
>>> Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip
>> website with the help of Josh.
>>> I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
>>>
>>> Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to
>> take Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
>>>
>>> You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean
>> request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always
>> worked historically.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you.Sree Vaddi
>>> 650.213.2707 M
>>>
>>>
>>>       On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
>> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>   On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>>> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down
>> the
>>>> entire incubator.
>>>
>>> While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
>>> Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
>>> is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
>>> honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
>>> easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
>>>
>>>
>>
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

To follow up on this.

+1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in a
month".

No activity has happened. The board reports are due soon, I would rather
not write another report to summarize no activity. We should start the vote
to shut down now.



On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.invalid>
wrote:

> Hi Edward,
> I am not aware of the difficulty in setting up the website or continuous
> modifications to it.If you feel so, you may make a motion for an alternate
> solutions (eg. git pages, ...) and link to 'gossip.incubator.apache.org'.And
> Apache.org is allowing it, now. Similar to, https://apache.github.io/
> incubator-heron/
> It would be a one time task.
>
>
> +1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in a
> month".
>
>
> Hi Josh,
> You have been very helpful so far.  And I appreciate that,
> personally.Please suggest a replacement or ad-hoc help that can set us in
> motion for the next few months, until we streamline.
>
>
> Hi Edward/Team,
> I am proposing a meetup event for kick start, again.A hackathon style,
> that would add to our code base.
> Josh came forward honestly. Thank you. Let us go through the rest of the
> names assigned to gossip and find out their level of contributions to
> gossip.And may be find alternatives or announce open positions.That should
> attract contributors to gossip.
>
>
> Thank you.Sree
>
>     On Monday, July 9, 2018, 11:35:21 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>
>  I'd clarify that I don't consider myself to be a part of Gossip. I exist
> only to satisfy my obligations of being a mentor (and even that is
> difficult for me, most days).
>
> On 7/8/18 11:21 AM, Sree V wrote:
> > Hi Edward,
> > Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip
> website with the help of Josh.
> > I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
> >
> > Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to
> take Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
> >
> > You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean
> request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
> >
> >
> > "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always
> worked historically.
> >
> >
> > Thank you.Sree Vaddi
> > 650.213.2707 M
> >
> >
> >      On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <
> elserj@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >  On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> >> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
> >>
> >>
> >> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down
> the
> >> entire incubator.
> >
> > While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
> > Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
> > is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
> > honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
> > easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
> >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.INVALID>]

Hi Edward,
I am not aware of the difficulty in setting up the website or continuous modifications to it.If you feel so, you may make a motion for an alternate solutions (eg. git pages, ...) and link to 'gossip.incubator.apache.org'.And Apache.org is allowing it, now. Similar to, https://apache.github.io/incubator-heron/
It would be a one time task.


+1 from me for "let's get things reviewed & merged before next report in a month".


Hi Josh,
You have been very helpful so far.  And I appreciate that, personally.Please suggest a replacement or ad-hoc help that can set us in motion for the next few months, until we streamline.


Hi Edward/Team,
I am proposing a meetup event for kick start, again.A hackathon style, that would add to our code base.
Josh came forward honestly. Thank you. Let us go through the rest of the names assigned to gossip and find out their level of contributions to gossip.And may be find alternatives or announce open positions.That should attract contributors to gossip.


Thank you.Sree 

    On Monday, July 9, 2018, 11:35:21 AM PDT, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:  
 
 I'd clarify that I don't consider myself to be a part of Gossip. I exist 
only to satisfy my obligations of being a mentor (and even that is 
difficult for me, most days).

On 7/8/18 11:21 AM, Sree V wrote:
> Hi Edward,
> Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip website with the help of Josh.
> I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
> 
> Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to take Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
> 
> You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
> 
> 
> "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always worked historically.
> 
> 
> Thank you.Sree Vaddi
> 650.213.2707 M
>  
> 
>      On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>  
>  On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
>>
>>
>> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down the
>> entire incubator.
> 
> While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
> Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
> is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
> honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
> easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
>    
> 
  

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Josh Elser <el...@apache.org>]

I'd clarify that I don't consider myself to be a part of Gossip. I exist 
only to satisfy my obligations of being a mentor (and even that is 
difficult for me, most days).

On 7/8/18 11:21 AM, Sree V wrote:
> Hi Edward,
> Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip website with the help of Josh.
> I prefer to stay in Apache.org.
> 
> Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to take Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)
> 
> You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.
> 
> 
> "Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always worked historically.
> 
> 
> Thank you.Sree Vaddi
> 650.213.2707 M
>   
> 
>      On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>   
>   On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
>>
>>
>> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down the
>> entire incubator.
> 
> While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the
> Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that
> is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to
> honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be
> easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
>    
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Sree V <sr...@yahoo.com.INVALID>]

Hi Edward,
Allow me to introduce myself, as the creator of the current gossip website with the help of Josh.
I prefer to stay in Apache.org.

Four willing people from this conversation, should be good enough to take Gossip forward.(Josh, Chandresh, Ankur & Myself)

You summarized the work involved very nicely.  Thanks.Let's add (i mean request) names to each of those tasks. And we are done.


"Delegate"; "Divide & Conquer"; "Epic, Story, Tasks..." .... always worked historically.


Thank you.Sree Vaddi
650.213.2707 M
 

    On Friday, July 6, 2018, 8:07:58 AM PDT, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:  
 
 On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
> 
> 
> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down the
> entire incubator.

While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the 
Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that 
is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to 
honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be 
easier made me think I wasn't off-base).
  

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Josh Elser <el...@apache.org>]

On 7/5/18 6:59 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.
> 
> 
> So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down the
> entire incubator.

While I know this is tongue-in-cheek, the folks who help out in the 
Incubator are well-stretched already. This isn't a new discussion that 
is coming out of the IPMC -- I'm just actually trying to get Gossip to 
honestly think about this (the comments about how using Github would be 
easier made me think I wasn't off-base).

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

All I am saying is:

https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/July2018

airflow (no report)

Amaterasu


(no report)

Annotator


(no report)

BatchEE 7 years in the incubator

no report

Goblin
Report

Gossip (no Report)

Hawk (report)

Livy (no report)

Milagro (no report)

S2 Graph (no report)

The list just goes on and on...

Of the ones with reports, not much sign off.


So if your going to make a big deal about reports...time to shut down the
entire incubator.

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:

> I won't rehash the comments on the more frequent reporting and
> shepherding. I think they were appropriately answered already on
> general@incubator (sorry if the CC to this list was dropped).
>
> I want to address the notion that mentors or other ASF members are here to
> build communities. We're not.
>
> We're here to provide guardrails to try to build healthy communities.
> We're here to help with technical challenges in getting your software
> lifecycle up on ASF infrastructure. We're here to help with the legal
> challenges of software licensing and copyright. We're here to be human
> mentors for when there are questions about interpersonal issues or
> attracting new people.
>
> We're not here to build the community for you.
>
> At the end of the day, I haven't seen an email to this list that wasn't a
> podling report request in months. I actually stopped hounding Ed personally
> because it had become a regular thing. There is absolutely no shame in
> saying that Gossip is not ready for the ASF. I'd really encourage you all
> to take a step back and think about that. I honestly think moving to Github
> would make you all much happier, and, an eventual move to the Incubator
> again later, would be that much easier (knowing what goes into it).
>
> On 7/5/18 1:00 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>
>> The challenge with this process is Apache claims to be about "building
>> communities", but you do not have great tools to do that. A number of
>> apache projects are propped up by some for profit company who just pays
>> people to work on that thing all the time.
>>
>> I asked for 3 months (normal reporting cycle) to re-evaluate and have a
>> legit chance at re-bootstrapping. I go to write up the report (which are
>> now suddenly due every month that no one discussed with me). The report
>> due
>> July 4th a US holiday. I go to write the report find a convo in the
>> incubator about how people want to close up the podling because they can
>> not even wait to see if I actually get the report in or not.
>>
>> Meanwhile the project had this "shepard" who never signed off a report and
>> his first interaction with the ML was to vote on shutting down the
>> podling.
>> Great job "building communities".
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Ed,
>>>
>>> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The Incubator
>>> is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects like you
>>> outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink because there
>>> isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
>>>
>>> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
>>> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you (the
>>> sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from actually
>>> producing software.
>>>
>>> +1 from me
>>>
>>> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>>
>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator.
>>>> Thank
>>>> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
>>>> much of this falls on me.
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and
>>>> be
>>>> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
>>>> reasons:
>>>>
>>>> Infrastructure:
>>>>
>>>> AAA
>>>> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
>>>> got
>>>> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to
>>>> google
>>>> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
>>>> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
>>>>
>>>> Releases:
>>>> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn
>>>> release:clean
>>>> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign
>>>> up
>>>> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign
>>>> of
>>>> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
>>>> steps,
>>>> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote
>>>> on
>>>> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to
>>>> an
>>>> svn directory.
>>>>
>>>> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and
>>>> other
>>>> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
>>>> For
>>>> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net
>>>> result
>>>> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release
>>>> is
>>>> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process
>>>> and
>>>> I
>>>> only did it because it is the only way.
>>>>
>>>> Community:
>>>> Apache incubator is about building communities.
>>>> Mailing list
>>>> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
>>>> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
>>>>
>>>> Jira
>>>> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
>>>> have
>>>> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
>>>> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
>>>> attracting
>>>> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
>>>> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> GIT
>>>> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
>>>> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
>>>> merge button)
>>>>
>>>> Updating the site:
>>>> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
>>>> like the release process)
>>>>
>>>> Reports
>>>> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
>>>> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never
>>>> great
>>>> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
>>>> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
>>>> month category.
>>>>
>>>> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq,
>>>> I
>>>> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
>>>> incubator
>>>> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another
>>>> huge
>>>> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
>>>> review.
>>>>
>>>> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache
>>>> TLPs
>>>> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant
>>>> thing
>>>> for some....
>>>>
>>>> So lets get out of here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

I filed our report a day late. Sorry for the delay.

https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/July2018#preview

I made note that we are in discussion to leave the incubator.

This leaves 9 podlings that did not report for yall to track down :)




On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:

> I won't rehash the comments on the more frequent reporting and
> shepherding. I think they were appropriately answered already on
> general@incubator (sorry if the CC to this list was dropped).
>
> I want to address the notion that mentors or other ASF members are here to
> build communities. We're not.
>
> We're here to provide guardrails to try to build healthy communities.
> We're here to help with technical challenges in getting your software
> lifecycle up on ASF infrastructure. We're here to help with the legal
> challenges of software licensing and copyright. We're here to be human
> mentors for when there are questions about interpersonal issues or
> attracting new people.
>
> We're not here to build the community for you.
>
> At the end of the day, I haven't seen an email to this list that wasn't a
> podling report request in months. I actually stopped hounding Ed personally
> because it had become a regular thing. There is absolutely no shame in
> saying that Gossip is not ready for the ASF. I'd really encourage you all
> to take a step back and think about that. I honestly think moving to Github
> would make you all much happier, and, an eventual move to the Incubator
> again later, would be that much easier (knowing what goes into it).
>
> On 7/5/18 1:00 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>
>> The challenge with this process is Apache claims to be about "building
>> communities", but you do not have great tools to do that. A number of
>> apache projects are propped up by some for profit company who just pays
>> people to work on that thing all the time.
>>
>> I asked for 3 months (normal reporting cycle) to re-evaluate and have a
>> legit chance at re-bootstrapping. I go to write up the report (which are
>> now suddenly due every month that no one discussed with me). The report
>> due
>> July 4th a US holiday. I go to write the report find a convo in the
>> incubator about how people want to close up the podling because they can
>> not even wait to see if I actually get the report in or not.
>>
>> Meanwhile the project had this "shepard" who never signed off a report and
>> his first interaction with the ML was to vote on shutting down the
>> podling.
>> Great job "building communities".
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Ed,
>>>
>>> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The Incubator
>>> is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects like you
>>> outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink because there
>>> isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
>>>
>>> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
>>> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you (the
>>> sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from actually
>>> producing software.
>>>
>>> +1 from me
>>>
>>> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>>
>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator.
>>>> Thank
>>>> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
>>>> much of this falls on me.
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and
>>>> be
>>>> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
>>>> reasons:
>>>>
>>>> Infrastructure:
>>>>
>>>> AAA
>>>> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
>>>> got
>>>> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to
>>>> google
>>>> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
>>>> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
>>>>
>>>> Releases:
>>>> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn
>>>> release:clean
>>>> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign
>>>> up
>>>> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign
>>>> of
>>>> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
>>>> steps,
>>>> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote
>>>> on
>>>> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to
>>>> an
>>>> svn directory.
>>>>
>>>> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and
>>>> other
>>>> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
>>>> For
>>>> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net
>>>> result
>>>> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release
>>>> is
>>>> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process
>>>> and
>>>> I
>>>> only did it because it is the only way.
>>>>
>>>> Community:
>>>> Apache incubator is about building communities.
>>>> Mailing list
>>>> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
>>>> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
>>>>
>>>> Jira
>>>> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
>>>> have
>>>> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
>>>> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
>>>> attracting
>>>> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
>>>> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> GIT
>>>> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
>>>> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
>>>> merge button)
>>>>
>>>> Updating the site:
>>>> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
>>>> like the release process)
>>>>
>>>> Reports
>>>> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
>>>> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never
>>>> great
>>>> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
>>>> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
>>>> month category.
>>>>
>>>> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq,
>>>> I
>>>> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
>>>> incubator
>>>> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another
>>>> huge
>>>> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
>>>> review.
>>>>
>>>> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache
>>>> TLPs
>>>> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant
>>>> thing
>>>> for some....
>>>>
>>>> So lets get out of here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Josh Elser <el...@apache.org>]

I won't rehash the comments on the more frequent reporting and 
shepherding. I think they were appropriately answered already on 
general@incubator (sorry if the CC to this list was dropped).

I want to address the notion that mentors or other ASF members are here 
to build communities. We're not.

We're here to provide guardrails to try to build healthy communities. 
We're here to help with technical challenges in getting your software 
lifecycle up on ASF infrastructure. We're here to help with the legal 
challenges of software licensing and copyright. We're here to be human 
mentors for when there are questions about interpersonal issues or 
attracting new people.

We're not here to build the community for you.

At the end of the day, I haven't seen an email to this list that wasn't 
a podling report request in months. I actually stopped hounding Ed 
personally because it had become a regular thing. There is absolutely no 
shame in saying that Gossip is not ready for the ASF. I'd really 
encourage you all to take a step back and think about that. I honestly 
think moving to Github would make you all much happier, and, an eventual 
move to the Incubator again later, would be that much easier (knowing 
what goes into it).

On 7/5/18 1:00 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> The challenge with this process is Apache claims to be about "building
> communities", but you do not have great tools to do that. A number of
> apache projects are propped up by some for profit company who just pays
> people to work on that thing all the time.
> 
> I asked for 3 months (normal reporting cycle) to re-evaluate and have a
> legit chance at re-bootstrapping. I go to write up the report (which are
> now suddenly due every month that no one discussed with me). The report due
> July 4th a US holiday. I go to write the report find a convo in the
> incubator about how people want to close up the podling because they can
> not even wait to see if I actually get the report in or not.
> 
> Meanwhile the project had this "shepard" who never signed off a report and
> his first interaction with the ML was to vote on shutting down the podling.
> Great job "building communities".
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hey Ed,
>>
>> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The Incubator
>> is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects like you
>> outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink because there
>> isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
>>
>> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
>> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you (the
>> sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from actually
>> producing software.
>>
>> +1 from me
>>
>> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator. Thank
>>> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
>>> much of this falls on me.
>>>
>>> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and be
>>> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
>>> reasons:
>>>
>>> Infrastructure:
>>>
>>> AAA
>>> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
>>> got
>>> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to google
>>> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
>>> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
>>>
>>> Releases:
>>> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn release:clean
>>> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign
>>> up
>>> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign of
>>> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
>>> steps,
>>> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote on
>>> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to an
>>> svn directory.
>>>
>>> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and other
>>> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
>>> For
>>> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net result
>>> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release is
>>> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process and
>>> I
>>> only did it because it is the only way.
>>>
>>> Community:
>>> Apache incubator is about building communities.
>>> Mailing list
>>> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
>>> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
>>>
>>> Jira
>>> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
>>> have
>>> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
>>> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
>>> attracting
>>> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
>>> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
>>> that.
>>>
>>> GIT
>>> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
>>> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
>>> merge button)
>>>
>>> Updating the site:
>>> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
>>> like the release process)
>>>
>>> Reports
>>> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
>>> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never great
>>> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
>>> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
>>> month category.
>>>
>>> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq, I
>>> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
>>> incubator
>>> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another huge
>>> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
>>> review.
>>>
>>> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache TLPs
>>> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant thing
>>> for some....
>>>
>>> So lets get out of here.
>>>
>>>
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Ankur Agrawal <an...@gmail.com>]

Hi Ed

Given the challenges with the processes and tooling, I am with you if you
want to move this to github.

However, just in case it can help, with apache-incubator, or with the
github, I can shoulder some of the responsibilities to keep the project
alive. I can commit to 3-4 hours of productive work every week, with some
consistency of at-least 1 hour every alternate day if required. I know this
is not a lot, but I am guessing with few of us being committed, the burden
will not fall on only one person.

Thanks
Ankur

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:00 AM Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The challenge with this process is Apache claims to be about "building
> communities", but you do not have great tools to do that. A number of
> apache projects are propped up by some for profit company who just pays
> people to work on that thing all the time.
>
> I asked for 3 months (normal reporting cycle) to re-evaluate and have a
> legit chance at re-bootstrapping. I go to write up the report (which are
> now suddenly due every month that no one discussed with me). The report due
> July 4th a US holiday. I go to write the report find a convo in the
> incubator about how people want to close up the podling because they can
> not even wait to see if I actually get the report in or not.
>
> Meanwhile the project had this "shepard" who never signed off a report and
> his first interaction with the ML was to vote on shutting down the podling.
> Great job "building communities".
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hey Ed,
> >
> > I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The Incubator
> > is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects like you
> > outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink because there
> > isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
> >
> > The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
> > who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you (the
> > sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from actually
> > producing software.
> >
> > +1 from me
> >
> > On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> >
> >> All,
> >>
> >> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator.
> Thank
> >> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
> >> much of this falls on me.
> >>
> >> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and
> be
> >> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
> >> reasons:
> >>
> >> Infrastructure:
> >>
> >> AAA
> >> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
> >> got
> >> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to
> google
> >> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
> >> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
> >>
> >> Releases:
> >> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn
> release:clean
> >> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign
> >> up
> >> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign
> of
> >> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
> >> steps,
> >> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote
> on
> >> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to
> an
> >> svn directory.
> >>
> >> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and
> other
> >> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
> >> For
> >> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net
> result
> >> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release
> is
> >> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process
> and
> >> I
> >> only did it because it is the only way.
> >>
> >> Community:
> >> Apache incubator is about building communities.
> >> Mailing list
> >> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
> >> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
> >>
> >> Jira
> >> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
> >> have
> >> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
> >> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
> >> attracting
> >> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
> >> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
> >> that.
> >>
> >> GIT
> >> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
> >> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
> >> merge button)
> >>
> >> Updating the site:
> >> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
> >> like the release process)
> >>
> >> Reports
> >> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
> >> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never
> great
> >> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
> >> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
> >> month category.
> >>
> >> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq,
> I
> >> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
> >> incubator
> >> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another
> huge
> >> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
> >> review.
> >>
> >> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache
> TLPs
> >> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant
> thing
> >> for some....
> >>
> >> So lets get out of here.
> >>
> >>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

The challenge with this process is Apache claims to be about "building
communities", but you do not have great tools to do that. A number of
apache projects are propped up by some for profit company who just pays
people to work on that thing all the time.

I asked for 3 months (normal reporting cycle) to re-evaluate and have a
legit chance at re-bootstrapping. I go to write up the report (which are
now suddenly due every month that no one discussed with me). The report due
July 4th a US holiday. I go to write the report find a convo in the
incubator about how people want to close up the podling because they can
not even wait to see if I actually get the report in or not.

Meanwhile the project had this "shepard" who never signed off a report and
his first interaction with the ML was to vote on shutting down the podling.
Great job "building communities".



On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hey Ed,
>
> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The Incubator
> is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects like you
> outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink because there
> isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
>
> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you (the
> sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from actually
> producing software.
>
> +1 from me
>
> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator. Thank
>> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
>> much of this falls on me.
>>
>> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and be
>> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
>> reasons:
>>
>> Infrastructure:
>>
>> AAA
>> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
>> got
>> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to google
>> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
>> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
>>
>> Releases:
>> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn release:clean
>> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign
>> up
>> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign of
>> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
>> steps,
>> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote on
>> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to an
>> svn directory.
>>
>> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and other
>> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
>> For
>> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net result
>> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release is
>> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process and
>> I
>> only did it because it is the only way.
>>
>> Community:
>> Apache incubator is about building communities.
>> Mailing list
>> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
>> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
>>
>> Jira
>> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
>> have
>> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
>> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
>> attracting
>> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
>> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
>> that.
>>
>> GIT
>> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
>> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
>> merge button)
>>
>> Updating the site:
>> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
>> like the release process)
>>
>> Reports
>> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
>> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never great
>> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
>> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
>> month category.
>>
>> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq, I
>> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
>> incubator
>> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another huge
>> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
>> review.
>>
>> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache TLPs
>> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant thing
>> for some....
>>
>> So lets get out of here.
>>
>>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Edward Capriolo <ed...@gmail.com>]

I did not want to leave apache either because of the huge swaths of time
invested into their build eco-system. That being said hosting the project
elsewhere will have only upsides.

For example, I host many projects using sonatype for project hosting.
https://central.sonatype.org/pages/ossrh-guide.html

With sonatype I can release with 3 commands. For apache I have to run 14
commands and then have a vote on this mailing list, a vote on another
mailing list, then manually push artifacts to apache SVN, and then send out
another [ANN] email proclaiming about how great the release is!

All this just takes unnecessary time. It is not fun, and if you are moving
jobs and I get fired for example and the report is not done the incubator
crew is unhappy. No one wants to do the monthly reports including myself so
that is that really.


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, chandresh pancholi <
chandreshpancholi007@gmail.com> wrote:

> Before moving it to GitHub, I would say let's give a chance.
> I am moving out from current job and I have plenty of time to contribute
> and promote gossip to forum in india.
>
> Happy to know your thoughts.
> -1 from me.
>
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, 10:21 PM Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hey Ed,
> >
> > I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The
> > Incubator is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects
> > like you outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink
> > because there isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
> >
> > The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
> > who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you
> > (the sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from
> > actually producing software.
> >
> > +1 from me
> >
> > On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> > > All,
> > >
> > > It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator.
> > Thank
> > > you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
> > > much of this falls on me.
> > >
> > > My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and
> > be
> > > independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the
> following
> > > reasons:
> > >
> > > Infrastructure:
> > >
> > > AAA
> > > I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
> > got
> > > back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to
> google
> > > around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp
> lost
> > > password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
> > >
> > > Releases:
> > > The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn
> release:clean
> > > && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and
> sign
> > up
> > > takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign
> > of
> > > health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
> > steps,
> > > generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote
> > on
> > > the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to
> an
> > > svn directory.
> > >
> > > That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and
> other
> > > manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
> > For
> > > me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net
> > result
> > > is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release
> > is
> > > just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process
> > and I
> > > only did it because it is the only way.
> > >
> > > Community:
> > > Apache incubator is about building communities.
> > > Mailing list
> > > The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
> > > figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
> > >
> > > Jira
> > > Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
> > have
> > > to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
> > > navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
> > attracting
> > > contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot.
> Having
> > > users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help
> with
> > > that.
> > >
> > > GIT
> > > Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
> > > peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
> > > merge button)
> > >
> > > Updating the site:
> > > Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard,
> (much
> > > like the release process)
> > >
> > > Reports
> > > I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
> > > different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never
> > great
> > > with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
> > > generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
> > > month category.
> > >
> > > The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a
> bbq, I
> > > went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
> > incubator
> > > list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another
> > huge
> > > time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
> > > review.
> > >
> > > Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache
> > TLPs
> > > have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant
> thing
> > > for some....
> > >
> > > So lets get out of here.
> > >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Josh Elser <el...@apache.org>]

I will point out that I've been pointing out the writing on the wall for 
months. This isn't some abrupt action.

On 7/5/18 1:00 PM, chandresh pancholi wrote:
> Before moving it to GitHub, I would say let's give a chance.
> I am moving out from current job and I have plenty of time to contribute
> and promote gossip to forum in india.
> 
> Happy to know your thoughts.
> -1 from me.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, 10:21 PM Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hey Ed,
>>
>> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The
>> Incubator is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects
>> like you outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink
>> because there isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
>>
>> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
>> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you
>> (the sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from
>> actually producing software.
>>
>> +1 from me
>>
>> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>> All,
>>>
>>> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator.
>> Thank
>>> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
>>> much of this falls on me.
>>>
>>> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and
>> be
>>> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
>>> reasons:
>>>
>>> Infrastructure:
>>>
>>> AAA
>>> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
>> got
>>> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to google
>>> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
>>> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
>>>
>>> Releases:
>>> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn release:clean
>>> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign
>> up
>>> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign
>> of
>>> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
>> steps,
>>> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote
>> on
>>> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to an
>>> svn directory.
>>>
>>> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and other
>>> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
>> For
>>> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net
>> result
>>> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release
>> is
>>> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process
>> and I
>>> only did it because it is the only way.
>>>
>>> Community:
>>> Apache incubator is about building communities.
>>> Mailing list
>>> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
>>> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
>>>
>>> Jira
>>> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
>> have
>>> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
>>> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
>> attracting
>>> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
>>> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
>>> that.
>>>
>>> GIT
>>> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
>>> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
>>> merge button)
>>>
>>> Updating the site:
>>> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
>>> like the release process)
>>>
>>> Reports
>>> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
>>> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never
>> great
>>> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
>>> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
>>> month category.
>>>
>>> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq, I
>>> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
>> incubator
>>> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another
>> huge
>>> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
>>> review.
>>>
>>> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache
>> TLPs
>>> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant thing
>>> for some....
>>>
>>> So lets get out of here.
>>>
>>
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[chandresh pancholi <ch...@gmail.com>]

Before moving it to GitHub, I would say let's give a chance.
I am moving out from current job and I have plenty of time to contribute
and promote gossip to forum in india.

Happy to know your thoughts.
-1 from me.

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, 10:21 PM Josh Elser <el...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hey Ed,
>
> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The
> Incubator is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects
> like you outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink
> because there isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
>
> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you
> (the sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from
> actually producing software.
>
> +1 from me
>
> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator.
> Thank
> > you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
> > much of this falls on me.
> >
> > My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and
> be
> > independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
> > reasons:
> >
> > Infrastructure:
> >
> > AAA
> > I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
> got
> > back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to google
> > around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
> > password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
> >
> > Releases:
> > The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn release:clean
> > && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign
> up
> > takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign
> of
> > health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
> steps,
> > generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote
> on
> > the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to an
> > svn directory.
> >
> > That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and other
> > manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
> For
> > me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net
> result
> > is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release
> is
> > just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process
> and I
> > only did it because it is the only way.
> >
> > Community:
> > Apache incubator is about building communities.
> > Mailing list
> > The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
> > figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
> >
> > Jira
> > Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
> have
> > to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
> > navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
> attracting
> > contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
> > users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
> > that.
> >
> > GIT
> > Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
> > peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
> > merge button)
> >
> > Updating the site:
> > Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
> > like the release process)
> >
> > Reports
> > I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
> > different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never
> great
> > with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
> > generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
> > month category.
> >
> > The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq, I
> > went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
> incubator
> > list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another
> huge
> > time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
> > review.
> >
> > Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache
> TLPs
> > have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant thing
> > for some....
> >
> > So lets get out of here.
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator

[Josh Elser <el...@apache.org>]

Hey Ed,

I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The 
Incubator is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects 
like you outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink 
because there isn't the expected level of volume or participants.

The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks 
who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you 
(the sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from 
actually producing software.

+1 from me

On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> All,
> 
> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator. Thank
> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
> much of this falls on me.
> 
> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and be
> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
> reasons:
> 
> Infrastructure:
> 
> AAA
> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I got
> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to google
> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
> 
> Releases:
> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn release:clean
> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is free and sign up
> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign of
> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven steps,
> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote on
> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to an
> svn directory.
> 
> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and other
> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed. For
> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net result
> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release is
> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process and I
> only did it because it is the only way.
> 
> Community:
> Apache incubator is about building communities.
> Mailing list
> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
> 
> Jira
> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users have
> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and attracting
> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
> that.
> 
> GIT
> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
> merge button)
> 
> Updating the site:
> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
> like the release process)
> 
> Reports
> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never great
> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
> month category.
> 
> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq, I
> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the incubator
> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another huge
> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
> review.
> 
> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache TLPs
> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant thing
> for some....
> 
> So lets get out of here.
>