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Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by Sarala Lee <sa...@gmail.com> on 2014/05/13 03:06:40 UTC
Suggestion.
Sir / Madam,
For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that satisfies most of my requirements.
However there is one very important property (if that's the right word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice? It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
Gordon Lee.
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
Some of what you want is easily available as follows:
Use Tools | Options to open the options dialog.
On the left, expend the section for Writer | Formatting Aids (you may
need to have a writer document open at the time)
You can then tell it to display things such as Paragraph end, spaces,
non-breaking spaces, tabs, breaks, and similar.
There is a macro that does something similar here:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/hillview/OOo/
These were written 10 years back. I vaguely remember running
RevealCodes2 or RevealCodes3, and, I think that I needed to fix
something so that it would work... I don't really remember.
One problem with a reveal codes macro in OOo is that formatting is often
not changed based on directly applied formatting, but by styles. This
may be a paragraph style, a character style, or, as directly applied
formatting.
On 05/12/2014 09:06 PM, Sarala Lee wrote:
> Sir / Madam,
> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that satisfies most of my requirements.
> However there is one very important property (if that's the right word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice? It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
> Gordon Lee.
>
>
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>
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Urmas <da...@gmail.com>.
"japples":
> A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
> document and make corrections on the spot.
I've never used WP, but basing on Wiki images, it shows mostly useless stuff
like linebreaks and spaces. Do you want to see where each formatting run
begins and ends?
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/22/2014 04:22 AM, japples wrote:
> How red faced am I . . . I finally put aside a portion of my mindset
> and can now can see OO's "reveal codes" - amazing how easy it is not
> to see the forest for the trees. Could not see OO codes because they
> did not appear as I was accustomed to viewing (periods look like dust
> specks on my monitor).
>
How?
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by japples <ja...@europa.com>.
Doug wrote: See below your note
>
> On 05/22/2014 04:22 AM, japples wrote:
>> How red faced am I . . . I finally put aside a portion of my mindset
>> and can now can see OO's "reveal codes" - amazing how easy it is not
>> to see the forest for the trees. Could not see OO codes because they
>> did not appear as I was accustomed to viewing (periods look like dust
>> specks on my monitor).
>>
>
> How?
Almost equal to the super deep red "Black Baccara" rose. I am able to
admit to my mistakes knowing there is a list member who delights in
attempting to make me feel inferior / signs his notes with his name
followed by "private" . I'll never know if he tries to contact me again
- anything connected with him is deleted before it reaches me.
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by japples <ja...@europa.com>.
How red faced am I . . . I finally put aside a portion of my mindset and
can now can see OO's "reveal codes" - amazing how easy it is not to see
the forest for the trees. Could not see OO codes because they did not
appear as I was accustomed to viewing (periods look like dust specks on
my monitor).
Jack
Wheels on elephant skates only allow forward movement
They lock thus preventing backward motion
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Martin Groenescheij <Ma...@Groenescheij.COM>.
On 21-5-2014 10:28, japples wrote:
> Martin, to put it more simply, you prefer to post the styles /
> definitions of a document as a cheat sheet rather than see the code in
> real time and where located in your document (reveal codes). Very
> inefficient to take eyes off of the document to search for "style
> definitions" then go back to document to "fix" the problem and
> possibly create a clash with imported document or another style
> definition.
To be honest, I don't prefer anything, because I believe I master
Styles. All I tried to address is that we should not be blind for
requirements of others and see if we can come up with a solution to
assist users who have problems with Styles.
>
> A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
> document and make corrections on the spot. Also, using this type of
> reveal code window eliminates the possibility of creating a
> conflicting style definition.
>
> This whole thing reminds me of when I started writing web pages. In
> short order I began to see how limiting wysiwyg (ie, styles) was yet I
> was unable to move to a more efficient method until that mindset
> changed. If the mind is closed, nothing can be accomplished.
> Opening a Reveal Codes window to correct document is more efficient
> and less problematic than working with styles. Per your description,
> a list of styles can be opened to identify what part of the rule is
> creating the problem. Reveal Codes allows to see the code causing
> the problem plus eliminates guessing related to conflicting styles.
>
> Perhaps when all the mindsets are put into neutral, an option that is
> intuitive, efficient, has low risk of creating other document
> problems, will come to light.
>
> Another comparison of styles vs reveal codes is the automobile
> transmissions. The manual is similar to working with style
> definitions while the automatic is more like working with reveal codes.
>
> The above is not saying adding "reveal codes" to OO is the thing to
> do; however, those with open minds seem to be projecting a more
> efficient way to handle documents.
> Nor is it saying anyone understanding the value of reveal codes and
> capable of the work required to add it to OO, won't be driven to drink
> or start staring at spinning spiral disks in a room of alternating
> color spotlights highlighting the pink spotted elephant chorus line.
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Doug Johnson wrote:
>> And your not even involving columns and tables, etc., yet!
>>
>> A page can get very complex.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Martin Groenescheij <
>> Martin@groenescheij.com> wrote:
>>> For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find
>>> this the best way to control my documents.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing
>>> Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes
>>> before
>>> he master Styles.
>>>
>>> Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited
>>> properties from parent Styles.
>>> Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems
>>> when you
>>> have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.
>>>
>>> Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of
>>> expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they
>>> need is
>>> something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me
>>> to Avoid
>>> Making Mistakes".
>>>
>>> One of the simple things that could help users is information of each
>>> property within a Style that shows from which Style
>>> the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style
>>> Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
>>> Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and
>>> Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze
>>> the formatting issues.
>>>
>>>
>>> Heading 1
>>> Font
>>> Font Inherited from Heading
>>> Typeface Bold
>>> Size 115%
>>> Language Inherited from Default
>>> Font Effects
>>> Font Color Inherited from Default
>>> Effects Inherited from Default
>>> Relief Inherited from Default
>>> Outline Inherited from Default
>>> Shadow Inherited from Default
>>> Blinking Inherited from Default
>>> Hidden Inherited from Default
>>> Overlining Inherited from Default
>>> Striketrough Inherited from Default
>>> Underlining Inherited from Default
>>> Alignment
>>> Left Inherited from Default
>>> Right Inherited from Default
>>> Center Inherited from Default
>>> Justified Inherited from Default
>>> Indent and Spacing
>>> Before Text 0.76
>>> After Text Inherited from Default
>>> First Line -0.76
>>> Automatic Inherited from Default
>>> Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
>>> Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
>>> Line Spacing Inherited from Default
>>> Active Inherited from Default
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sir / Madam,
>>>> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and
>>>> Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never
>>>> found a
>>>> better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found
>>>> that
>>>> satisfies most of my requirements.
>>>> However there is one very important property (if that's the
>>>> right
>>>> word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that
>>>> I have
>>>> used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change
>>>> that was
>>>> made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard
>>>> return was
>>>> "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the
>>>> change you
>>>> required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens
>>>> which I
>>>> don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
>>>> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in
>>>> OpenOffice?
>>>> It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many
>>>> others
>>>> who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
>>>> Gordon Lee.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>> List Conduct Guidelines:
>>>> http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Greg Madden <go...@gci.net>.
On Friday 23 May 2014 13:43:21 you wrote:
> Larry, I understand your words. For now, this is the closest OO has
> to WP reveal codes.
>
> Look closely and you will see some of the codes shown with OO are
> also shown in WP reveal codes window. Point being, you don't have to
> have a separate window to view / edit codes.
>
> One other point, WP Reveal Codes are non-printable. WP uses " <> "
> for space and OO uses "."; WP uses "HRT" for hard return and OO uses
> the old symbol (pre computer) for a new paragraph.
>
> Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples
> other than ones I have given above). The OO's limited source has
> been the topic for requesting to expand. The ability to edit is
> there just not in a separate window as WP. I don't know if OO has
> the ability to edit a text box but someone with more time and energy
> could respond.
>
> Jack
>
> Larry Gusaas wrote:
> > On 2014-05-23, 9:07 AM japples wrote:
> >> I do apologize for not being more clear about where I found the
> >> "codes" OO has that are similar to the WP codes.
> >> Open OO Writer, find the icon that looks similar to the manual
> >> (before computer) editing symbol for new paragraph. Click on it
> >> to expose the codes or simply ctrl+F10.
> >
> > ctrl+F10 shows Non-Printing Charactors. That is not comparable to
> > WP's reveal codes.
butinski...
Ive read this thread, and for the context of "Reveal Codes " most folks
are 'not' talking aboout the small subset of features supplied by
AOO's 'non-printing characters', not even obtusley, imho.
quote Larry
" That is not comparable to WP's reveal codes."
Quote Japples:
"Now tell me again how there are no similarities"
Big difference between "no" and "comparable"
I currently have a vm of WP8 in a NT4 image. Love it, more for nostalgia
than production.
--
Peace,
Greg
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2014-05-23, 9:07 AM japples wrote:
> I do apologize for not being more clear about where I found the "codes" OO has that are
> similar to the WP codes.
> Open OO Writer, find the icon that looks similar to the manual (before computer) editing
> symbol for new paragraph. Click on it to expose the codes or simply ctrl+F10.
ctrl+F10 shows Non-Printing Charactors. That is not comparable to WP's reveal codes.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/23/2014 05:43 PM, japples wrote:
> Larry, I understand your words. For now, this is the closest OO has
> to WP reveal codes.
> Look closely and you will see some of the codes shown with OO are also
> shown in WP reveal codes window. Point being, you don't have to have
> a separate window to view / edit codes.
>
> One other point, WP Reveal Codes are non-printable. WP uses " <> "
> for space and OO uses "."; WP uses "HRT" for hard return and OO uses
> the old symbol (pre computer) for a new paragraph.
The name of the ¶ sign is "pilcrow."
--doug
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by japples <ja...@europa.com>.
Larry, I understand your words. For now, this is the closest OO has to
WP reveal codes.
Look closely and you will see some of the codes shown with OO are also
shown in WP reveal codes window. Point being, you don't have to have a
separate window to view / edit codes.
One other point, WP Reveal Codes are non-printable. WP uses " <> " for
space and OO uses "."; WP uses "HRT" for hard return and OO uses the old
symbol (pre computer) for a new paragraph.
Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples other
than ones I have given above). The OO's limited source has been the
topic for requesting to expand. The ability to edit is there just not
in a separate window as WP. I don't know if OO has the ability to edit
a text box but someone with more time and energy could respond.
Jack
Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2014-05-23, 9:07 AM japples wrote:
>> I do apologize for not being more clear about where I found the
>> "codes" OO has that are similar to the WP codes.
>> Open OO Writer, find the icon that looks similar to the manual
>> (before computer) editing symbol for new paragraph. Click on it to
>> expose the codes or simply ctrl+F10.
>
> ctrl+F10 shows Non-Printing Charactors. That is not comparable to WP's
> reveal codes.
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Alan B <ab...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Doug <dm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> On 05/23/2014 08:43 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
>> On 2014-05-23, 3:43 PM japples wrote:
>>
>> /snip/
>
> There is a huge difference between showing non-printing characters and
>> showing formatting codes. Saying AOO shows non-printing characters is
>> similar to WP reveal codes is ridiculous.
>>
>> Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples other
>>> than ones I have given above). The OO's limited source has been the topic
>>> for requesting to expand. The ability to edit is there just not in a
>>> separate window as WP. I don't know if OO has the ability to edit a text
>>> box but someone with more time and energy could respond.
>>>
>>
>> Using reveal non-printing charters in AOO does not show any formatting
>> codes. The purpose of WP reveal codes is to change the documents
>> formatting (font size and type, bold, italic, underline, superscript, etc).
>> There is no similarity to AOO.
>>
>>
> I have found the Reveal Codes feature to be most useful in finding oddball
> things that may have come in with an imported file, and to debug minor
> mishaps that are
> not obvious from just looking at the text. One use of Reveal Codes will
> tell you whether a tab or a set of spaces is used in a text. Also, to spot
> double spaces, if you don't
>
> I'm in agreement w Larry. Finding extra/misplaced characters, non-printing
or otherwise, is not at all equivalent to reveal codes. With reveal codes
it is/was possible to literally see where formatting or styles were applied
in a document. It would "reveal" such things as two different formats
applied one after the other to a block of text which would help make
apparent why removing one type of formatting didn't cause the text to be
displayed as expected.
e.g. <format_code1>a whole bunch of text<f_c2><f_c3>some other text.
Remove <f_c3> and "some other text" would now display as <f_c2> not <f_c1>
as would be expected when reveal codes was off. But turn on reveal codes
and it became immediately apparent why the text was not displaying as
expected.
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com>.
Doug wrote:
> One use of Reveal Codes will tell you whether a tab or a set of spaces
> is used in a text. Also, to spot double spaces, if you don't
> just do a find/replace to get rid of them. I think this kind of use
> could be done in OO or LO just as well.
Just to clarify, and as I think most users of OpenOffice realize, these
particular things will be shown fine using View > Non-printing
characters (or Ctrl+F10). So there is no need for any additional "reveal
code" features for these items. (I'm not saying there are no other needs
for reveal codes.)
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/23/2014 08:43 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2014-05-23, 3:43 PM japples wrote:
>
/snip/
> There is a huge difference between showing non-printing characters and
> showing formatting codes. Saying AOO shows non-printing characters is
> similar to WP reveal codes is ridiculous.
>
>> Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples
>> other than ones I have given above). The OO's limited source has
>> been the topic for requesting to expand. The ability to edit is
>> there just not in a separate window as WP. I don't know if OO has
>> the ability to edit a text box but someone with more time and energy
>> could respond.
>
> Using reveal non-printing charters in AOO does not show any formatting
> codes. The purpose of WP reveal codes is to change the documents
> formatting (font size and type, bold, italic, underline, superscript,
> etc). There is no similarity to AOO.
>
I must respectfully disagree. All of the formatting in WP is modifiable
from the menus at the top of the page, and simple format changes, like
bold, italic, underline
are available from the keyboard in the same fashion that is found in
virtually all modern word processors or text writers. Font and font size
are also modifiable from
the heading structure. (What are those top lines, which occur in just
about all GUI programs, including Firefox and Thunderbird, called,
anyway?) Real format tricks,
like small caps can be found in the pull-down menus.
I have found the Reveal Codes feature to be most useful in finding
oddball things that may have come in with an imported file, and to debug
minor mishaps that are
not obvious from just looking at the text. One use of Reveal Codes will
tell you whether a tab or a set of spaces is used in a text. Also, to
spot double spaces, if you don't
just do a find/replace to get rid of them. I think this kind of use
could be done in OO or LO just as well.
--doug
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2014-05-23, 3:43 PM japples wrote:
> Larry, I understand your words. For now, this is the closest OO has to WP reveal codes.
> Look closely and you will see some of the codes shown with OO are also shown in WP reveal
> codes window. Point being, you don't have to have a separate window to view / edit codes.
>
> One other point, WP Reveal Codes are non-printable. WP uses " <> " for space and OO uses
> "."; WP uses "HRT" for hard return and OO uses the old symbol (pre computer) for a new
> paragraph.
There is a huge difference between showing non-printing characters and showing formatting
codes. Saying AOO shows non-printing characters is similar to WP reveal codes is ridiculous.
> Now tell me again how there are no similarities (include examples other than ones I have
> given above). The OO's limited source has been the topic for requesting to expand. The
> ability to edit is there just not in a separate window as WP. I don't know if OO has the
> ability to edit a text box but someone with more time and energy could respond.
Using reveal non-printing charters in AOO does not show any formatting codes. The purpose of
WP reveal codes is to change the documents formatting (font size and type, bold, italic,
underline, superscript, etc). There is no similarity to AOO.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by japples <ja...@europa.com>.
Dan, like you, I am very tired of people talking about things such as
the "content.xml file in the zipped ODT file" which doesn't seem to be a
function in the standard tool bar such as Edit, Copy, Paste etc.
I do apologize for not being more clear about where I found the "codes"
OO has that are similar to the WP codes.
Open OO Writer, find the icon that looks similar to the manual (before
computer) editing symbol for new paragraph. Click on it to expose the
codes or simply ctrl+F10.
Thank you for your kind request for clarification
Jack
Dan Lewis wrote:
> On 05/22/2014 04:15 PM, japples wrote:
>>
>>
>> Urmas wrote:
>>> "japples":
>>>
>>>> A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
>>>> document and make corrections on the spot.
>>>
>>> I've never used WP, but basing on Wiki images, it shows mostly
>>> useless stuff like linebreaks and spaces. Do you want to see where
>>> each formatting run begins and ends?
>>
>> May I suggest you use the real deal rather than accepting an
>> explanation by a third party - listening to a third party is similar
>> to listening to gossip rather than finding out for yourself. Most of
>> the time you will find gossip is a mix of truth and fantasy. Last
>> comment, OO has similar codes revealed and, personally, I have used
>> them for over 30 years and find them most helpful. In the past, I
>> was able to help co-workers who used a product without ability to see
>> codes. They spent hours trying to fix a document that took me less
>> than 10 minutes.
>>
> Once again I read about that someone has done something without
> saying what they did nor how. What codes are you talking about in OO
> better known (supposedly) as AOO? Are you talking about the
> content.xml file in the zipped ODT file?
>
> --Dan
>
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>
>
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>.
On 05/22/2014 04:15 PM, japples wrote:
>
>
> Urmas wrote:
>> "japples":
>>
>>> A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
>>> document and make corrections on the spot.
>>
>> I've never used WP, but basing on Wiki images, it shows mostly
>> useless stuff like linebreaks and spaces. Do you want to see where
>> each formatting run begins and ends?
>
> May I suggest you use the real deal rather than accepting an
> explanation by a third party - listening to a third party is similar
> to listening to gossip rather than finding out for yourself. Most of
> the time you will find gossip is a mix of truth and fantasy. Last
> comment, OO has similar codes revealed and, personally, I have used
> them for over 30 years and find them most helpful. In the past, I was
> able to help co-workers who used a product without ability to see
> codes. They spent hours trying to fix a document that took me less
> than 10 minutes.
>
Once again I read about that someone has done something without
saying what they did nor how. What codes are you talking about in OO
better known (supposedly) as AOO? Are you talking about the content.xml
file in the zipped ODT file?
--Dan
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by japples <ja...@europa.com>.
Urmas wrote:
> "japples":
>
>> A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
>> document and make corrections on the spot.
>
> I've never used WP, but basing on Wiki images, it shows mostly useless
> stuff like linebreaks and spaces. Do you want to see where each
> formatting run begins and ends?
May I suggest you use the real deal rather than accepting an explanation
by a third party - listening to a third party is similar to listening to
gossip rather than finding out for yourself. Most of the time you will
find gossip is a mix of truth and fantasy. Last comment, OO has similar
codes revealed and, personally, I have used them for over 30 years and
find them most helpful. In the past, I was able to help co-workers who
used a product without ability to see codes. They spent hours trying to
fix a document that took me less than 10 minutes.
>
>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by japples <ja...@europa.com>.
Martin, to put it more simply, you prefer to post the styles /
definitions of a document as a cheat sheet rather than see the code in
real time and where located in your document (reveal codes). Very
inefficient to take eyes off of the document to search for "style
definitions" then go back to document to "fix" the problem and possibly
create a clash with imported document or another style definition.
A more efficient way would be to have the codes seen where they are in
document and make corrections on the spot. Also, using this type of
reveal code window eliminates the possibility of creating a conflicting
style definition.
This whole thing reminds me of when I started writing web pages. In
short order I began to see how limiting wysiwyg (ie, styles) was yet I
was unable to move to a more efficient method until that mindset
changed. If the mind is closed, nothing can be accomplished.
Opening a Reveal Codes window to correct document is more efficient and
less problematic than working with styles. Per your description, a list
of styles can be opened to identify what part of the rule is creating
the problem. Reveal Codes allows to see the code causing the problem
plus eliminates guessing related to conflicting styles.
Perhaps when all the mindsets are put into neutral, an option that is
intuitive, efficient, has low risk of creating other document problems,
will come to light.
Another comparison of styles vs reveal codes is the automobile
transmissions. The manual is similar to working with style definitions
while the automatic is more like working with reveal codes.
The above is not saying adding "reveal codes" to OO is the thing to do;
however, those with open minds seem to be projecting a more efficient
way to handle documents.
Nor is it saying anyone understanding the value of reveal codes and
capable of the work required to add it to OO, won't be driven to drink
or start staring at spinning spiral disks in a room of alternating color
spotlights highlighting the pink spotted elephant chorus line.
Jack
Doug Johnson wrote:
> And your not even involving columns and tables, etc., yet!
>
> A page can get very complex.
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Martin Groenescheij <
> Martin@groenescheij.com> wrote:
>
>> For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find
>> this the best way to control my documents.
>>
>> Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing
>> Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes before
>> he master Styles.
>>
>> Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited
>> properties from parent Styles.
>> Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems when you
>> have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.
>>
>> Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of
>> expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they need is
>> something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me to Avoid
>> Making Mistakes".
>>
>> One of the simple things that could help users is information of each
>> property within a Style that shows from which Style
>> the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style
>> Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
>> Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and
>> Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze
>> the formatting issues.
>>
>>
>> Heading 1
>> Font
>> Font Inherited from Heading
>> Typeface Bold
>> Size 115%
>> Language Inherited from Default
>> Font Effects
>> Font Color Inherited from Default
>> Effects Inherited from Default
>> Relief Inherited from Default
>> Outline Inherited from Default
>> Shadow Inherited from Default
>> Blinking Inherited from Default
>> Hidden Inherited from Default
>> Overlining Inherited from Default
>> Striketrough Inherited from Default
>> Underlining Inherited from Default
>> Alignment
>> Left Inherited from Default
>> Right Inherited from Default
>> Center Inherited from Default
>> Justified Inherited from Default
>> Indent and Spacing
>> Before Text 0.76
>> After Text Inherited from Default
>> First Line -0.76
>> Automatic Inherited from Default
>> Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
>> Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
>> Line Spacing Inherited from Default
>> Active Inherited from Default
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Sir / Madam,
>>> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and
>>> Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a
>>> better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that
>>> satisfies most of my requirements.
>>> However there is one very important property (if that's the right
>>> word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have
>>> used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was
>>> made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was
>>> "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you
>>> required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I
>>> don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
>>> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice?
>>> It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others
>>> who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
>>> Gordon Lee.
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug Johnson <do...@gmail.com>.
And your not even involving columns and tables, etc., yet!
A page can get very complex.
On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Martin Groenescheij <
Martin@groenescheij.com> wrote:
> For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find
> this the best way to control my documents.
>
> Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing
> Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes before
> he master Styles.
>
> Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited
> properties from parent Styles.
> Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems when you
> have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.
>
> Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of
> expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they need is
> something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me to Avoid
> Making Mistakes".
>
> One of the simple things that could help users is information of each
> property within a Style that shows from which Style
> the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style
> Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
> Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and
> Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze
> the formatting issues.
>
>
> Heading 1
> Font
> Font Inherited from Heading
> Typeface Bold
> Size 115%
> Language Inherited from Default
> Font Effects
> Font Color Inherited from Default
> Effects Inherited from Default
> Relief Inherited from Default
> Outline Inherited from Default
> Shadow Inherited from Default
> Blinking Inherited from Default
> Hidden Inherited from Default
> Overlining Inherited from Default
> Striketrough Inherited from Default
> Underlining Inherited from Default
> Alignment
> Left Inherited from Default
> Right Inherited from Default
> Center Inherited from Default
> Justified Inherited from Default
> Indent and Spacing
> Before Text 0.76
> After Text Inherited from Default
> First Line -0.76
> Automatic Inherited from Default
> Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
> Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
> Line Spacing Inherited from Default
> Active Inherited from Default
>
>
>
> On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:
>
>> Sir / Madam,
>> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and
>> Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a
>> better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that
>> satisfies most of my requirements.
>> However there is one very important property (if that's the right
>> word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have
>> used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was
>> made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was
>> "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you
>> required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I
>> don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
>> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice?
>> It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others
>> who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
>> Gordon Lee.
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Martin Groenescheij <Ma...@Groenescheij.COM>.
For me personally I worked with Styles for about three decades and find
this the best way to control my documents.
Nevertheless we should not be blind for the needs of others, managing
Styles has a long learning curve and someone can make many mistakes
before he master Styles.
Where someone can fall into the trap is the complexity of inherited
properties from parent Styles.
Even if you are an expert in Style formats you come into problems when
you have to combine documents which are originated from different persons.
Users tend to ask for something they are familiar with instead of
expressing their problem, they ask for "Reveal Codes" but what they need
is something like "Reveal my Mistakes with Styles" or better "Help me to
Avoid Making Mistakes".
One of the simple things that could help users is information of each
property within a Style that shows from which Style
the property is inherited e.g. Heading 1 inherit properties from Style
Heading and Style Heading inherit properties from
Style Default. Displaying this information either in the Style and
Formatting Toolbar or in the Sidebar will help to analyze
the formatting issues.
Heading 1
Font
Font Inherited from Heading
Typeface Bold
Size 115%
Language Inherited from Default
Font Effects
Font Color Inherited from Default
Effects Inherited from Default
Relief Inherited from Default
Outline Inherited from Default
Shadow Inherited from Default
Blinking Inherited from Default
Hidden Inherited from Default
Overlining Inherited from Default
Striketrough Inherited from Default
Underlining Inherited from Default
Alignment
Left Inherited from Default
Right Inherited from Default
Center Inherited from Default
Justified Inherited from Default
Indent and Spacing
Before Text 0.76
After Text Inherited from Default
First Line -0.76
Automatic Inherited from Default
Above paragraph Inherited from Heading
Below paragraph Inherited from Heading
Line Spacing Inherited from Default
Active Inherited from Default
On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:
> Sir / Madam,
> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that satisfies most of my requirements.
> However there is one very important property (if that's the right word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice? It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
> Gordon Lee.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
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>
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Martin Groenescheij <Ma...@Groenescheij.COM>.
On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:
> Sir / Madam,
> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that satisfies most of my requirements.
> However there is one very important property (if that's the right word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
If you learn to use Styles there is not much to reveal. Yes it takes
some time before you master Styles but it's worth the effort.
> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice? It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
> Gordon Lee.
>
>
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>
Re: Suggestion
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 00:13 13/05/2014 -0400, Doug McGarrett wrote:
>... the stuffy answers came back and said you have to use "styles," ...
Styles are an important and attractive feature of
OpenOffice. Any recommendation of them is surely
helpful; it's difficult to see how that can be described as "stuffy".
>... which is a giant ball of wax.
Er, perhaps not to those who appreciate them.
>In other words, even if you could see what was
>happening, you could not change it "on the fly," ...
On the contrary, if you have created and applied
styles appropriately, any change can be done
easily and efficiently. That's their beauty. Of
course, if you have resisted the use of the
product's facilities, you will necessarily find them puzzling and difficult.
>... you had to go and figure out what kind of
>style would make the text look like what you wanted and create that style.
Once you are familiar with styles, selecting an
existing style or creating or modifying one suitably is child's play.
>And then your whole document would have that style.
Ho, ho! You don't make your case any stronger by
making farcical claims. In text documents, there
are character, paragraph, frame, list and page
styles. They would be nonsensical if they
couldn't and didn't apply to individual or ranges
of characters, paragraphs, pages, and so on. They
do, of course. (If you've applied no styles,
every element of each type will have the same
default style, so any modification you make to
that style will *of course* apply to all such elements.)
>What a humongous mess!
It's odd that you should choose to use a product
that you apparently dislike so much. But chacun à
son goût. It's probably worth saying that any
skill needs some time and effort to achieve, of
course. Those who have learned about styles will
tell you how flexible they are.
Brian Barker
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Re: Suggestion
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 11:46 13/05/2014 -0400, Doug McGarrett wrote:
>/snip/
It's interesting that you had to excise my comment before you
commented further - presumably so that you could avoid facing it!
>You could only change it if you messed with "styles," which is what I said.
No, that's not what you said: what you actually said (I'll check) is
(about the use of styles) 'even if you could see what was happening,
you could not change it "on the fly," ...'. And that's not true: you
can make local changes if you prefer or, if you are using styles (one
of the purposes of which is to maintain consistency between similar
but possibly disparate areas of a document), you can just as easily
change the style - to change all the areas to which it is applied.
And that is *what you would want*, of course. (If you think you
wouldn't want that, then you have yet to appreciate the point of styles.)
>You couldn't just arbitrarily change one thing, like you can in
>WordPerfect, or many other word processors or editors.
Oh, you can, you can! And you can also change many things at once,
using styles. Take your pick.
>I have never seen anything as _in_flexible as OO/LO!
If you are claiming limited experience, I can't comment, of course.
>I find "styles" to be a strait-jacket I don't wish to wear!
You seem to be under the impression that I'm attempting to persuade
you to like OpenOffice, but I'm not. I'm perfectly happy for you to
be like the majority of the world's population - non-users of
OpenOffice. What I think is unfortunate is that you should
misrepresent its powers to an audience (of perhaps thousands?) who
may be prepared to like it.
Brian Barker
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Re: Suggestion
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/13/2014 10:31 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
> At 00:13 13/05/2014 -0400, Doug McGarrett wrote:
>> ... the stuffy answers came back and said you have to use "styles," ...
>
> Styles are an important and attractive feature of OpenOffice. Any
> recommendation of them is surely helpful; it's difficult to see how
> that can be described as "stuffy".
>
>> ... which is a giant ball of wax.
>
> Er, perhaps not to those who appreciate them.
>
>> In other words, even if you could see what was happening, you could
>> not change it "on the fly," ...
>
/snip/
You could only change it if you messed with "styles," which is what I
said. You couldn't just arbitrarily change one thing, like you can in
WordPerfect, or many
other word processors or editors.
>> What a humongous mess!
>
> It's odd that you should choose to use a product that you apparently
> dislike so much. But chacun à son goût. It's probably worth saying
> that any skill needs some time and effort to achieve, of course. Those
> who have learned about styles will tell you how flexible they are.
>
> Brian Barker
>
Basically, I _don't_ use the product. LO came installed in my distro,
but I have found other word-processors, including WordPerfect12, that
works on a 32-bit
system, and Free Office Text Maker, a free version of a commercial
product made in Germany. As far as I'm concerned they work better than
LO or OO,
altho the old WP probably can't read the latest Microsoft formats. I
have never seen anything as _in_flexible as OO/LO! I find "styles" to
be a strait-jacket I
don't wish to wear!
--doug
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/12/2014 10:08 PM, Julian Thomas wrote:
> On 12 May 2014, at 21:20, Jim McLaughlin <jj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I would certainly "second" Gordon Lee's suggestion for ver. 5.x.x that
>> having a
>> parallel to the Corel/WP "reveal Codes" function would be invaluable.
> Amen. One of the VERY BEST features of WP - even before it went Corel - was the reveal codes option, which gave the user full control over the quirky formatting of almost any WordProc app - including OO [if you question this, try to do nested lists, with the top level numbered and the next level bulleted].
>
> jt
>
>
This subject came up a couple of months ago, maybe with LO instead of
OO, and the stuffy answers came back and said you have to use "styles,"
which is a
giant ball of wax. In other words, even if you could see what was
happening, you could not change it "on the fly," you had to go and
figure out what kind
of style would make the text look like what you wanted and and create
that style. And then your whole document would have that style. What a
humongous
mess! WordPerfect Office 12 word processor (only*) will run in 32-bit
Linux, but I don't know whether the reveal styles function works--not
everything does.
Also it apparently will not run in 64-bit systems, but maybe that can be
finagled.
*Do not try to install other features of the office suite, like the
spread sheet, or Corel Draw, etc.
--doug
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
On 13 May 2014, at 01:20, Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net> wrote:
> Nested lists are no problem whatsoever if you use list styles.
can you point me at a 'how to' for this? I'm not [yet] into styles.
Many thanks - jt
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Monday 12 May 2014 10:08:57 PM Julian Thomas wrote:
> Amen. One of the VERY BEST features of WP - even before it went Corel - was
> the reveal codes option, which gave the user full control over the quirky
> formatting of almost any WordProc app - including OO [if you question this,
> try to do nested lists, with the top level numbered and the next level
> bulleted].
Nested lists are no problem whatsoever if you use list styles.
Some people squirm at the idea of using lists, but there's no escaping the
fact that OpenOffice and LibreOffice are designed to work with styles, and are
inefficient without them.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
On 12 May 2014, at 21:20, Jim McLaughlin <jj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would certainly "second" Gordon Lee's suggestion for ver. 5.x.x that
> having a
> parallel to the Corel/WP "reveal Codes" function would be invaluable.
Amen. One of the VERY BEST features of WP - even before it went Corel - was the reveal codes option, which gave the user full control over the quirky formatting of almost any WordProc app - including OO [if you question this, try to do nested lists, with the top level numbered and the next level bulleted].
jt
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
If you use styles, and press F11 to open the Styles and Formatting window, the
window automatically highlights the style you are using. change the type of
style being listed, and the highlighting may also change. Right-click on the
style and select Modify, and you can read a summary of the style, then go to
the tabs to change it.
In other words, if you use OpenOffice the way it was designed to use, it already
has a Reveal Code-like feature.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by 許哲崇 <fi...@gmail.com>.
Try to use keyboard recording software.
2014-05-13 9:20 GMT+08:00 Jim McLaughlin <jj...@gmail.com>:
> I would certainly "second" Gordon Lee's suggestion for ver. 5.x.x that
> having a
> parallel to the Corel/WP "reveal Codes" function would be invaluable.
>
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Sarala Lee <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sir / Madam,
> > For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and
> Desktop
> > Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better
> > program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that
> satisfies
> > most of my requirements.
> > However there is one very important property (if that's the right
> > word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I
> have
> > used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was
> > made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return
> was
> > "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you
> > required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which
> I
> > don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
> > Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice?
> It
> > would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others
> who
> > still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
> > Gordon Lee.
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Jim McLaughlin <jj...@gmail.com>.
I would certainly "second" Gordon Lee's suggestion for ver. 5.x.x that
having a
parallel to the Corel/WP "reveal Codes" function would be invaluable.
On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Sarala Lee <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sir / Madam,
> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and Desktop
> Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better
> program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that satisfies
> most of my requirements.
> However there is one very important property (if that's the right
> word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have
> used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was
> made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was
> "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you
> required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I
> don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice? It
> would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others who
> still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
> Gordon Lee.
>
>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Martin Groenescheij <Ma...@Groenescheij.COM>.
As you're not subscribed to this user list you have only seen 2 out of
15 replies.
> "Reveal Codes", where every change that was made in the document was shown by a particular code.
OpenOffice doesn't have Reveal Codes, but it can show your changes, if
you have selected record changes.
"HRT" ¶ can been seen when you have selected Show Nonprinting Characters
Once you have learned to use Styles there is less of a need to reveal
changes.
On 13-5-2014 11:06, Sarala Lee wrote:
> Sir / Madam,
> For many years I used WordPerfect as my Word Processor and Desktop Publisher to produce a 12 page newsletter. I have never found a better program. As I now have iMac I use Openoffice and have found that satisfies most of my requirements.
> However there is one very important property (if that's the right word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I have used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes", where every change that was made in the document was shown by a particular code. e.g.: Hard return was "HRT". If this was not what was wanted then you could make the change you required. Or as sometimes happens in OpenOffice, something happens which I don't understand, I have no way of finding out why.
> Would it be possible to incorporate this feature in OpenOffice? It would enhance this program's appeal to me and, I'm sure to many others who still hanker for the user friendliness of WP.
> Gordon Lee.
>
>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/13/2014 08:10 AM, circulars@gmx.com wrote:
> Reveal codes was a marvellously useful feature of Word Perfect. If it
> be that we can't have that, could we at least have a 'reveal styles'
> command instead? There is no ready and full-proof way to do this at
> the moment. Presumably that would be a more acceptable compromise.
>
/snip/
I posted earlier about installing WordPerfect 12 on Linux. I have it
running on PCLinuxOS 32-bit KDE, and I just this minute verified that
the Reveal Codes
feature works as it should. This turns out to be not Office 12, but
WordPerfect 12. It is called a Productivity Pack, and is probably not
supposed to be sold
separately, since my disk, which I bought from Amazon, says "This
software is pre-installed on your computer." On the disk is a Corel
logo that
says OEM. On the envelope, it says it's a backup copy for Dell, and
it's only for use with that. It's copyright 2005, so it's not likely to
read the latest Microsoft
formats. As of today, Amazon can supply two copies. They supply a serial
number you can use to install it. And they tell you NOT to install the
other apps,
like the spread sheet or the draw program, etc. So I didn't. I don't
know what happens if you do. When Amazon runs out, I don't know where
you can get it.
Anyway, I have a bunch of money invested in "real" WordPerfect (Windows)
versions so I don't feel bad about using this.
--doug
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
>how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
>and behave like computers.
It's perhaps worth pointing out that the truth is diametrically
opposite to this claim! Users who ask to "reveal codes" are asking to
look at the inner workings of the program and to see how (they
perceive that) it and the computer actually work. Developers who
offer facilities such as styles are allowing users to use programs
and computers in the way *the users* think, not how the machinery does.
If you want, say, a paragraph to be indented, you want the paragraph
indented, pure and simple. And that's what styles allow you to say.
If you prefer the codes, you need to say "Start indenting the text
from this point onwards" and separately "Stop the indenting of text
that you have been practising up to now". That's the way programs and
computers may need to think, but it is not the way real users do naturally.
Have you ever been asked to double-space a document? Probably. Has
anyone ever asked you instead to set double spacing at the beginning
of the document and then turn it off at the end? Of course not:
that's not how people think and speak!
>This is not necessarily the best way to ensure "user satisfaction".
1. Remember that local formatting is still available: no-one is
forced to use styles.
2. Many users are most satisfied using a word processor as if it were
a typewriter. Their satisfaction should not be allowed to limit the
advancement of software and facilities that can be appreciated by others.
Brian Barker
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Friday 16 May 2014 11:35:46 PM James Knott wrote:
> On 05/16/2014 09:29 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
> > If people don't want to learn how to use Writer the way it was designed,
> > they might be better off with some simpler tool.
>
> Notepad? ;-)
:-)
But I didn't say that to put anyone down.
It's just that if someone is going to stay with manual formatting, there's a
lot of things in Writer that will be irrelevant to them.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by James Knott <ja...@rogers.com>.
On 05/16/2014 09:29 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
> If people don't want to learn how to use Writer the way it was designed, they
> might be better off with some simpler tool.
Notepad? ;-)
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Thursday 15 May 2014 09:03:13 PM Jim McLaughlin wrote:
> the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option
Really? I don't mean to be contentious, but I didn't see an overwhelming
majority on either side.
> If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
> attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel products,
> those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
> providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
> rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed here
> so far.
All major office suites, including WordPefect, are most efficient when styles are
used. OpenOffice Writer is an extreme example of using styles, but that's also
what makes it so powerful. And for some people, like the writers of technical
manuals, styles are absolutely essential for their work.
Writer does allow you to format manually, if you really insist. In fact, some
innovations, such as the sidebar, chiefly aid manually formatting. However, I
would hate, for example, to create a table of contents without heading styles;
I would have to go through the entire document and create each entry one at a
time, instead of having them ready to use when I want the TOC.
But you can only accommodate people's unwillingness to learn or to help
themselves so far. You wouldn't expect to sit down and play a game without
learning how it was structured, so why would you expect to do so with an office
suite? Beyond a certain point, people have to help themselves.
If people don't want to learn how to use Writer the way it was designed, they
might be better off with some simpler tool. AbiWord might be a good choice for
such people; it's one of the few word processors I know that might be said to
be oriented towards manual formatting.
> Is there a technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can not
> be implemented in 5.x.x?
See my previous post about past discussions of the subject. One potential
problem is that unlike WordPerfect, OpenOffice doesn't store information in a
single file. An OpenOffice file is really a collection of several compressed files.
Under these circumstances, a Reveal Code feature is not impossible, but it is
more complicated than in WordPerfect. It means another way for files to corrupt
as information passes back and forth between the actual files and the Reveal
Code Screen, and would be high maintenance, since every new feature would
require revisions to it.
I don't speak for anyone except myself. However, given that there is a lot to
do already with maintaining and cleaning the aging code, I doubt that
developers would make Reveal Codes a high priority unless there was a lot more
enthusiasm that has been shown so far.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by James Plante <ji...@me.com>.
+1 on that, Bruce.
I've got a small stash of letters, memos, and technical docs (many just for my own use) that I keep; some of these were crafted in the 1.x version of OpenOffice. Most are version 3.x templates, though. They all still work, just as you describe.
Learning to use templates does not require an extensive amount of additional work. And if you mostly use the same type of document, e.g., an in-house memo form, then set that as the default template. You can always open a different one when you want to write a letter or a formal report.
Jim Plante
On May 15, 2014, at 11:15 PM, Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday 14 May 2014 06:38:37 PM Doug wrote:
>
> it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
>> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
>> metallurgy!
>
> When I first started using OpenOffice.org well over a decade ago, I sat down and
> figured all the types of short documents I did, and developed templates for
> them them. Some years ago, I imported them to ODF, and I am still using them
> today.
>
> Whenever I use those templates, I never have to think about formatting except
> occasionally to change styles. Often, I don't even have to do that, because of
> the Next field automatically changes styles for me. The time I save on each
> document is small, but over the years I must have saved days' worth of work --
> and all because I took a little extra time once, years ago, to learn about
> styles. So even if you're only doing short, one-off documents, styles can save
> you time and effort.
>
> --
> Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
> blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
> website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Wednesday 14 May 2014 06:38:37 PM Doug wrote:
it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
> metallurgy!
When I first started using OpenOffice.org well over a decade ago, I sat down and
figured all the types of short documents I did, and developed templates for
them them. Some years ago, I imported them to ODF, and I am still using them
today.
Whenever I use those templates, I never have to think about formatting except
occasionally to change styles. Often, I don't even have to do that, because of
the Next field automatically changes styles for me. The time I save on each
document is small, but over the years I must have saved days' worth of work --
and all because I took a little extra time once, years ago, to learn about
styles. So even if you're only doing short, one-off documents, styles can save
you time and effort.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Tom Backer Johnsen <ba...@psych.uib.no>.
At least two (probably more) of the books I have in my shelf are produced entirely by a system widely used in the sciences, LaTeX, in combination with other software like RStudio, R, and a package for R called knitr. As far as I understand, page layout, headers, footers, references, everything. No tweaking afterwards. LaTeX is a beautiful tool. Steep learning curve, but with anything more than a few pages long, definitely worth the investment in the long run.
Tom
On 21. May 2014, at 07:02 , Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday 21 May 2014 09:22:08 AM Urmas wrote:
>> "Bruce Byfield":
>>
>> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
>> because
>> it means doing more work than necessary
>>
>> Take any book from your shelf.
>> The number of lines on each page was adjusted manually.
>> The hyphenation and letter spacing were adjusted manually.
>> Paragraph spacing was adjusted manually.
>> The height of each footnote was adjusted manually.
>> Each illustration was placed manually.
>
>
> Sorry -- you're waayyyy behind the times. The vast majority of books published
> these days use a layout program -- sometimes, even, LibreOffice -- and the
> publishers set it using tools like styles. I've worked with several different
> publishers, and I can tell you that the industry standards are fairly
> consistent.
>
> The only books in which everything is done manually are made by small presses,
> usually working with a pre-digital press. Such books tend to be expensive
> because they are so time-consuming to produce.
>
> Chances are, you yourself don't do manually all the things you mention when
> you use LibreOffice. You might tweak a hyphenation break here and there, or kern
> a couple of characters, but I would be very surprised to learn that you went
> character by character over all your documents.
>
> --
> Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
> blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
> website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
>
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Tom Backer Johnsen
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5003 Bergen
Mobil: +47 9169 3346
Email: backer(at)psych.uib.no
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Wednesday 21 May 2014 05:14:33 PM mt wrote:
> On 20/5/14 at 3:02 PM, bbyfield@axion.net (Bruce Byfield) wrote:
> >....
> >
> >Sorry -- you're waayyyy behind the times. The vast majority of
> >books published these days use a layout program -- sometimes,
> >even, LibreOffice -- and the publishers set it using tools like
> >styles. ...
>
> This is true, Bruce. But you can always set apart books that
> have been manually adjusted from books that rely on automatic layout.
>
> Guess which are the most professional-looking? :-)
Sure, and they can be a joy to own.
However, I would point out:
- Manual layouts for books are usually done on pre-digital presses, not on a
computer.
- What singles out manually-set books isn't that they are set manually, but
that time and effort is devoted to making everything perfect. It's the care,
not the technique that matters. In theory, you could take the same care with a
digital file, but neither manual formatters nor users of styles generally do
so. More often, both settle for what is good enough.
- The question of manual formatting vs. style comes down to a matter of which
can save you the most time while presenting the higher standard of layout. You
probably still have to tweak finishing details if you use styles, but you
generally have less to do, and can finish the tweaks more quickly and with less
effort than if you rely on manual formatting.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by mt <mt...@lockedbags.org>.
On 20/5/14 at 3:02 PM, bbyfield@axion.net (Bruce Byfield) wrote:
>....
>
>Sorry -- you're waayyyy behind the times. The vast majority of
>books published these days use a layout program -- sometimes,
>even, LibreOffice -- and the publishers set it using tools like
>styles. ...
>
This is true, Bruce. But you can always set apart books that
have been manually adjusted from books that rely on automatic layout.
Guess which are the most professional-looking? :-)
Bottom line is that there is no "perfect automation". Which is
exactly why many users request more efficient ways to "interact"
with the software.
Now I don't know whether we should make a distinction between
"requirement" and "request" in this case... but it seems to me
that whitewashing it altogether might not be the best approach.
marina
---
MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
@martadiello
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Wednesday 21 May 2014 09:22:08 AM Urmas wrote:
> "Bruce Byfield":
>
> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
> because
> it means doing more work than necessary
>
> Take any book from your shelf.
> The number of lines on each page was adjusted manually.
> The hyphenation and letter spacing were adjusted manually.
> Paragraph spacing was adjusted manually.
> The height of each footnote was adjusted manually.
> Each illustration was placed manually.
Sorry -- you're waayyyy behind the times. The vast majority of books published
these days use a layout program -- sometimes, even, LibreOffice -- and the
publishers set it using tools like styles. I've worked with several different
publishers, and I can tell you that the industry standards are fairly
consistent.
The only books in which everything is done manually are made by small presses,
usually working with a pre-digital press. Such books tend to be expensive
because they are so time-consuming to produce.
Chances are, you yourself don't do manually all the things you mention when
you use LibreOffice. You might tweak a hyphenation break here and there, or kern
a couple of characters, but I would be very surprised to learn that you went
character by character over all your documents.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 18:03 15/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>I'm simply asking that user perspective is taken into consideration
>at least as much as the programmer's own. The starting point ought
>always to be that computers are there to aid humans. And not all
>humans take to computing as well as programmers do. It's just
>obvious to me - why should it sound so "strange" to programmers? :-)
Come, come: this is entirely a straw man! No-one writing user
software fails to take users and their humanity into account - and
you do the very kind developers of OpenOffice (with whom, for the
avoidance of doubt, I have no connection) a serious disservice by
suggesting that they do. The styles you deplore are surely designed
with users and their needs in mind, not with any convenience of
programming. Your desire for the software to be user-friendly is of
course spot on, but your conclusion that this end is provided by
"reveal codes" is totally wrong.
It's interesting that you failed to reply to my earlier comments (not
that you have any responsibility to do so, of course) and that you
excised my comments from the message to which you did reply (though
unhelpfully leaving my name in). What should we deduce from this:
that my suggestions were so much to the point that you cannot fault them?!
Since you are still asking for a low-level approach to word
processing on the pretext of wanting a high-level approach, it may be
worth exercising the argument further. There are three possible
reasons, I suggest, for wanting "reveal codes".
1. The first is that you actually want to be able to see *how* the
program works - in other words, you are a geek and want to think like
a programmer, not like a true user. There is nothing wrong with that:
it's like the person who buys a new gadget and wants - before s/he
uses it - to take it apart and see not how to use it but how it
actually works. This person, when they look at a car with the
prospect of buying it, does not sit in the driving seat and get the
feel of the controls, but instead opens the bonnet and starts
fiddling with the engine components. You claim not to be this person,
but you nevertheless ask to see the innards of the program.
2. The second possibility is that you are dissatisfied with the way
that OpenOffice (in particular, Writer) displays the structure (as
distinct from the appearance) of any document. You perhaps inherit a
document from elsewhere and need to know how to modify it as you
need. For that, you need to be able to see its structure. I have to
say that I cannot disagree with such a suggestion! In case anyone
doesn't know what I mean, let me give a simple example. Suppose you
have two similar-looking tables with one immediately following the
other - with no intervening element, that is. There is no easy way to
see immediately that you have two tables and not just one, longer
table. But the two cases behave differently, and you need to know
which you have in order to be able to handle the document
efficiently. (Yes, there are ways to see which you have, but they are
indirect and not very obvious.) The solution to this, though, is to
improve the display of document structure, not to ask to look inside
the program. If you need to know when your car is low on fuel, you
ask for a fuel gauge on the dashboard, not an external dipstick on
the fuel tank.
3. When you revealed codes in Word Perfect, you could, I think,
tinker with them: you could edit the codes directly, deleting one
here and entering a new one there. Indeed, I think that was their
purpose: Word Perfect would sometime get itself in a twist and end up
with inconsistent tags in a document - and the solution offered by
its developers was to show the user the internal workings of the
program and insist that they tinkered with them to achieve what was
necessary. In this way, they were insisting that users (temporarily?)
became programmers, not (as you seem to think) the other way about.
But as soon as you allow users to *modify* any such tags, you
immediately lose the integrity of the tags: it's just as easy to
delete one tag of a pair and leave the other or to add an unbalanced
tag or to insert a misspelled one as to do something meaningful. Word
Perfect offered a facility for you to sort out its mistakes, but what
you are asking for is a recipe for users' creating confused and
incorrect documents.
It's perhaps also worth saying that the idea of "reveal codes"
implies the existence of such codes in the first place. In other
words, you are assuming that the internal model of the program labels
the structure through tags - as a mark-up language does. But this is
only one way for programs and documents to behave - and many don't.
Do you know the best way? My ideal word processor would not be at all
wysiwyg; instead it would concentrate on displaying plain text with
all the structure of the document. You would not see the appearance
of the document until the last minute, when you used Page Preview.
But that would be no problem since, with such clear indication of the
structure of the document, you would know before you saw it that the
document would appear exactly as you wanted! (Er, but I'm not
expecting anyone to believe this for a decade or three!)
I hope that your true concern is my second possibility and that you
can campaign on its behalf.
Brian Barker
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com>.
Not to argue, but just to mention my experiences -- I do "on the spot"
formatting on many occasions and I've never felt hampered by not having
the "reveal codes" capability. Also, I've used styles on many other
occasions, and likewise have never felt hampered by not having "reveal
codes".
I DO find it helpful on many occasions to use the View > Non-printing
characters (also accessed by clicking on the "paragraph" symbol button,
or selecting Ctrl+F10) feature, to see where hard returns are, where
spaces are, etc. Especially when editing text that someone else created,
in particular one person who submits to the newsletter that I edit
where, rather than using tabs to create a table-like format, he uses
spaces.
Based on a post of someone else, it seems like some of the features that
this person was complaining about not having in Open Office are in fact
achievable by the View > Non-printing characters feature.
Doug Johnson wrote:
> I agree with the "On the spot" need. Quite simply, Reveal Codes allows me
> to see what's going with a glance.
>
> With so many features, the interaction between them can make formatting
> unexpectedly difficult.
>
> Like salt and pepper, use when needed!
>
>
> On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> What I don't understand, and I'm sure I must be missing something so
>> please explain, is how come this discussion seems to suggest that it's
>> either/or -- meaning, "use styles for all formatting" or "we HAVE to have
>> "reveal codes" to not use styles".
>>
>> I've used styles a lot with Open Office and I greatly appreciate how
>> valuable they can be; for example, I edit a newsletter and styles have made
>> my life way easier and made the resulting newsletter way more consistent.
>>
>> On the other hand, there are many places, in smaller documents, where I
>> want to format something on the spot without setting up styles -- changing
>> the spacing between paragraphs, making some text bold, indenting a
>> paragraph, etc., and I often do that without using styles. And it works
>> just fine.
>>
>> So if someone wants to use styles, they can use them. If someone doesn't
>> want to use styles and do formatting on the spot without going through
>> styles, that can be done too. So why the implied necessity for "reveal
>> codes" for people who choose not to use styles?
>>
>>
>> Jim McLaughlin wrote:
>>
>>> This has been a very interesting thread.
>>>
>>> It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
>>> so months I've been a subscrber to this group.
>>>
>>> What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
>>> "orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
>>> codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
>>> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
>>> "styles " approach.
>>>
>>> Food for thought.
>>>
>>> If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
>>> attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel
>>> products,
>>> those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
>>> providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
>>> rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed
>>> here
>>> so far.
>>>
>>> Not trying to start a pissing contest. Just pointing out what the
>>> admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.
>>>
>>> Is there a technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can
>>> not
>>> be implemented in 5.x.x?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug <dm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
>>>>> At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>>>>>> In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
>>>>>>> how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
>>>>>>> and behave like computers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of
>>>>>> perverse,
>>>>>>
>>>>> because
>>>>> it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
>>>>> important features.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book
>>>>> I'm in
>>>>> the middle of completing:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than
>>>>> thirty
>>>>> years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can
>>>>> format a
>>>>> document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned
>>>>> is to
>>>>> do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
>>>>> available.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them
>>>>> and
>>>>> coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get
>>>>> things
>>>>> done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some
>>>>> tasks, like
>>>>> going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited
>>>>> view."
>>>>>
>>>>> I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I
>>>>>
>>>> probably
>>>> never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
>>>> I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
>>>> bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages"
>>>> or
>>>> whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
>>>> at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
>>>> my text. I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
>>>> no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
>>>> format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
>>>> don't write books, or edit them or publish them, i don't need a desktop
>>>> publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, if I needed a desktop publisher, and didn't want to
>>>> or could not afford to purchase a "professional" one, I would certainly
>>>> look at the possibility of learning and using OO/LO. From what I read
>>>> in these lists, that would be a real possibility. Someone who is willing
>>>> to
>>>> spend the time to actually write a book can probably afford the time to
>>>> learn desktop publishing.
>>>>
>>>> One more thing: I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from
>>>> learning OO/LO, if that's what they want. I am, however, pointing out
>>>> that it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
>>>> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
>>>> metallurgy!
>>>>
>>>> I rest my case.
>>>>
>>>> --doug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> -------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug Johnson <do...@gmail.com>.
I agree with the "On the spot" need. Quite simply, Reveal Codes allows me
to see what's going with a glance.
With so many features, the interaction between them can make formatting
unexpectedly difficult.
Like salt and pepper, use when needed!
On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com> wrote:
> What I don't understand, and I'm sure I must be missing something so
> please explain, is how come this discussion seems to suggest that it's
> either/or -- meaning, "use styles for all formatting" or "we HAVE to have
> "reveal codes" to not use styles".
>
> I've used styles a lot with Open Office and I greatly appreciate how
> valuable they can be; for example, I edit a newsletter and styles have made
> my life way easier and made the resulting newsletter way more consistent.
>
> On the other hand, there are many places, in smaller documents, where I
> want to format something on the spot without setting up styles -- changing
> the spacing between paragraphs, making some text bold, indenting a
> paragraph, etc., and I often do that without using styles. And it works
> just fine.
>
> So if someone wants to use styles, they can use them. If someone doesn't
> want to use styles and do formatting on the spot without going through
> styles, that can be done too. So why the implied necessity for "reveal
> codes" for people who choose not to use styles?
>
>
> Jim McLaughlin wrote:
>
>> This has been a very interesting thread.
>>
>> It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
>> so months I've been a subscrber to this group.
>>
>> What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
>> "orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
>> codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
>> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
>> "styles " approach.
>>
>> Food for thought.
>>
>> If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
>> attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel
>> products,
>> those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
>> providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
>> rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed
>> here
>> so far.
>>
>> Not trying to start a pissing contest. Just pointing out what the
>> admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.
>>
>> Is there a technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can
>> not
>> be implemented in 5.x.x?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug <dm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
>>>>>> how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
>>>>>> and behave like computers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of
>>>>> perverse,
>>>>>
>>>> because
>>>> it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
>>>> important features.
>>>>
>>>> Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book
>>>> I'm in
>>>> the middle of completing:
>>>>
>>>> "Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than
>>>> thirty
>>>> years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.
>>>>
>>>> "Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can
>>>> format a
>>>> document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned
>>>> is to
>>>> do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
>>>> available.
>>>>
>>>> "It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them
>>>> and
>>>> coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get
>>>> things
>>>> done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some
>>>> tasks, like
>>>> going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited
>>>> view."
>>>>
>>>> I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I
>>>>
>>> probably
>>> never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
>>> I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
>>> bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages"
>>> or
>>> whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
>>> at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
>>> my text. I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
>>> no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
>>> format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
>>> don't write books, or edit them or publish them, i don't need a desktop
>>> publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if I needed a desktop publisher, and didn't want to
>>> or could not afford to purchase a "professional" one, I would certainly
>>> look at the possibility of learning and using OO/LO. From what I read
>>> in these lists, that would be a real possibility. Someone who is willing
>>> to
>>> spend the time to actually write a book can probably afford the time to
>>> learn desktop publishing.
>>>
>>> One more thing: I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from
>>> learning OO/LO, if that's what they want. I am, however, pointing out
>>> that it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
>>> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
>>> metallurgy!
>>>
>>> I rest my case.
>>>
>>> --doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Richard Detwiler <RL...@aol.com>.
What I don't understand, and I'm sure I must be missing something so
please explain, is how come this discussion seems to suggest that it's
either/or -- meaning, "use styles for all formatting" or "we HAVE to
have "reveal codes" to not use styles".
I've used styles a lot with Open Office and I greatly appreciate how
valuable they can be; for example, I edit a newsletter and styles have
made my life way easier and made the resulting newsletter way more
consistent.
On the other hand, there are many places, in smaller documents, where I
want to format something on the spot without setting up styles --
changing the spacing between paragraphs, making some text bold,
indenting a paragraph, etc., and I often do that without using styles.
And it works just fine.
So if someone wants to use styles, they can use them. If someone doesn't
want to use styles and do formatting on the spot without going through
styles, that can be done too. So why the implied necessity for "reveal
codes" for people who choose not to use styles?
Jim McLaughlin wrote:
> This has been a very interesting thread.
>
> It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
> so months I've been a subscrber to this group.
>
> What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
> "orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
> codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
> "styles " approach.
>
> Food for thought.
>
> If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
> attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel products,
> those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
> providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
> rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed here
> so far.
>
> Not trying to start a pissing contest. Just pointing out what the
> admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.
>
> Is there a technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can not
> be implemented in 5.x.x?
>
>
> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug <dm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
>>>>> how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
>>>>> and behave like computers.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
>>> because
>>> it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
>>> important features.
>>>
>>> Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book
>>> I'm in
>>> the middle of completing:
>>>
>>> "Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than
>>> thirty
>>> years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.
>>>
>>> "Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can
>>> format a
>>> document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned
>>> is to
>>> do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
>>> available.
>>>
>>> "It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them and
>>> coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get
>>> things
>>> done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some
>>> tasks, like
>>> going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited
>>> view."
>>>
>>> I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I
>> probably
>> never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
>> I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
>> bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages" or
>> whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
>> at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
>> my text. I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
>> no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
>> format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
>> don't write books, or edit them or publish them, i don't need a desktop
>> publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.
>>
>> On the other hand, if I needed a desktop publisher, and didn't want to
>> or could not afford to purchase a "professional" one, I would certainly
>> look at the possibility of learning and using OO/LO. From what I read
>> in these lists, that would be a real possibility. Someone who is willing to
>> spend the time to actually write a book can probably afford the time to
>> learn desktop publishing.
>>
>> One more thing: I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from
>> learning OO/LO, if that's what they want. I am, however, pointing out
>> that it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
>> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
>> metallurgy!
>>
>> I rest my case.
>>
>> --doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Peter Johansson <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:03 AM, Jim McLaughlin
<jj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
> "orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
> codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
> WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
> "styles " approach.
It is all a matter of where you want to spend your time. Those who
prefer to spend it up front go with styles. Those who don't prefer
embedded codes. Those who prefer embedded codes rarely realize just
how much time they are wasting at the back end on every document, or
how much time they could be saving overall by learning how to use, and
then using styles.
Of course, it is not exactly as simple as this. Personally, I learned
of and how to use the style model back in 1987 when I learned LaTeX as
that was the only way to drive the spiffy new DEC LN03 laser printer
at my university. It was around that time when I replaced my Apple 2
with a 286 PC and quickly found WordPerfect absolutely horrid by
comparison. To this day, I still prefer the semantic mark-up of LaTeX
for text-based document.
Sadly, as brutal as developing styles in TeX can be, developing styles
in a GUI/WYSIWYG is really not all that much better -- at least from
what I have seen from my casual investigation over the years. But
another sad reality is that while anyone can put in the time and learn
how to use styles, not everyone can learn how to produce an
aesthetically pleasing design.
That said, it then becomes clear that the proper workflow model is to
have *one* person in an organization develop style sheets and then
require everyone else to actually use them -- regardless of what
software you are using. Sadly, this model seems to be rarely
implemented.
-p.
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Jim McLaughlin <jj...@gmail.com>.
This has been a very interesting thread.
It has also been the single most posted to thread I've seen in the six or
so months I've been a subscrber to this group.
What fascinates me is that other than the three defender's of OO
"orthodoxy" regarding "styles" ve. alternative methods, like a WP "reveal
codes" approach, the overwhelming majority of posters appear to desire the
WP/Corel "Reveal Codes" option to the very steep learning curve of the
"styles " approach.
Food for thought.
If the programmers behind OO want to provide a word processor which will
attract users, and avoid the very high costs of the MJKS or Corel products,
those programmers might want to seriously consider the efficacy of
providing what the users who have expressed an opinion appear to want,
rather tahn take the "...my way or the highway..." approach expresseed here
so far.
Not trying to start a pissing contest. Just pointing out what the
admittedly unscientifif opinion sample in this thread has so far shown.
Is there a technical reason why a Corel/WP "Reveal Codes" function can not
be implemented in 5.x.x?
On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Doug <dm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
>>
>>> At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>>>
>>>> In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
>>>> how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
>>>> and behave like computers.
>>>>
>>> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
>> because
>> it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
>> important features.
>>
>> Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book
>> I'm in
>> the middle of completing:
>>
>> "Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than
>> thirty
>> years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.
>>
>> "Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can
>> format a
>> document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned
>> is to
>> do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
>> available.
>>
>> "It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them and
>> coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get
>> things
>> done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some
>> tasks, like
>> going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited
>> view."
>>
>> I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I
> probably
> never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
> I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
> bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages" or
> whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
> at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
> my text. I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
> no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
> format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
> don't write books, or edit them or publish them, i don't need a desktop
> publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.
>
> On the other hand, if I needed a desktop publisher, and didn't want to
> or could not afford to purchase a "professional" one, I would certainly
> look at the possibility of learning and using OO/LO. From what I read
> in these lists, that would be a real possibility. Someone who is willing to
> spend the time to actually write a book can probably afford the time to
> learn desktop publishing.
>
> One more thing: I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from
> learning OO/LO, if that's what they want. I am, however, pointing out
> that it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
> writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
> metallurgy!
>
> I rest my case.
>
> --doug
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
> List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/14/2014 02:12 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
> On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
>> At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>>> In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
>>> how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
>>> and behave like computers.
> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse, because
> it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
> important features.
>
> Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book I'm in
> the middle of completing:
>
> "Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than thirty
> years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.
>
> "Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can format a
> document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned is to
> do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
> available.
>
> "It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them and
> coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get things
> done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some tasks, like
> going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited view."
>
I, being an enemy of "styles," in general, explain myself thusly: I probably
never write anything more than three pages long. I am not writing a book.
I don't have chapters. I don't use bulletted lists, altho I might if
bullets were easier to use _without_ styles! I don't have "Front Pages" or
whatever chapter heads are called in fancy books. I don't have chapters
at all, so I don't need pages that end in the middle before going on with
my text. I don't even indent paragraphs, but if I wanted to, it would be
no big deal to push the tab key. (Actually, most word-processors have a
format command that would do that for me, if I wanted it.) And since I
don't write books, or edit them or publish them, i don't need a desktop
publisher, which is what _I_ think OO/LO are aiming to be.
On the other hand, if I needed a desktop publisher, and didn't want to
or could not afford to purchase a "professional" one, I would certainly
look at the possibility of learning and using OO/LO. From what I read
in these lists, that would be a real possibility. Someone who is willing to
spend the time to actually write a book can probably afford the time to
learn desktop publishing.
One more thing: I am not in any way trying to dissuade anyone from
learning OO/LO, if that's what they want. I am, however, pointing out
that it is hardly worth the effort for the average memo writer, letter
writer, or even article writer. It would be like a numismatist learning
metallurgy!
I rest my case.
--doug
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by James Knott <ja...@rogers.com>.
On 05/20/2014 10:22 PM, Urmas wrote:
> Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
> because
> it means doing more work than necessary
If anyone knows perverse, it would be Urmas. ;-)
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Urmas <da...@gmail.com>.
"Bruce Byfield":
Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse,
because
it means doing more work than necessary
Take any book from your shelf.
The number of lines on each page was adjusted manually.
The hyphenation and letter spacing were adjusted manually.
Paragraph spacing was adjusted manually.
The height of each footnote was adjusted manually.
Each illustration was placed manually.
Manual formatting is essential.
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by japples <ja...@europa.com>.
Thank you for the links. I understood less than 5% of what I read.
Not sure if I gleamed this correctly or not; however, it seems WP and OO
are different platforms (?) so adding a reveal code feature would
require OO to be totally re-written.
Personally, I find reveal codes very helpful yet haven't learned how
style rules can provide help with these functions:
Example: when creating a document there might be a soft-return
making the document look correct on the screen / in print preview
but skewed when printed. In reveal codes, can find soft returns /
hard returns; soft change of page / hard change of page.
Example: double spacing between some words (my hand gets tired,
rests on the space bar ever now and then) is easier to find these
extra spaces via reveal codes.
Example: finding / editing text box is easier with reveal codes.
There can be more than one Text box in no particular order but
easily identified in reveal codes. Another plus, the identified
Text box can be edited in the reveal code window.
Bruce Byfield wrote:
> By the way, the idea of a Reveal Codes feature goes way back - over a decade,
> in fact:
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
>
> And a discussion of the issues involved with implementing it:
>
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Reveal_Codes_-_Alternative_for_OOo_Writer
>
> Other discussion at LibreOffice:
>
> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.bugs/87075
>
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
By the way, the idea of a Reveal Codes feature goes way back - over a decade,
in fact:
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
And a discussion of the issues involved with implementing it:
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Reveal_Codes_-_Alternative_for_OOo_Writer
Other discussion at LibreOffice:
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.bugs/87075
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Thursday 15 May 2014 06:03:34 PM mt wrote:
> I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm simply asking that user
> perspective is taken into consideration at least as much as the
> programmer's own.
So far as I'm concerned, anything that saves me time and effort is taking my
perspective as a user into consideration.
> Also, your comments do not address the main point in my message,
> which was about "revealing codes" for document options that go
> beyond plain styling.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you give an example of "options that go
beyond plain styling?"
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by mt <mt...@lockedbags.org>.
On 14/5/14 at 4:12 AM, bbyfield@axion.net (Bruce Byfield) wrote:
>On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
>>At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
>>>In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
>>>how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
>>>and behave like computers.
>
>Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of
>perverse, because it means doing more work than necessary, and
>cutting yourself off from important features.
>
Mh, this really depends.
>Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to
>the book I'm in the middle of completing:
>
>"Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after
>more than thirty years, few of us have bothered to learn how to
>use them.
>
>"Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us
>can format a document and print it out, after a fashion. But
>what we haven't learned is to do these things efficiently,
>taking advantage of all the tools that are available.
>"It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill
>in them and coast across level ground, but never learned about
>the ignition. We get things done, but with more effort and less
>efficiency that we should. Some tasks, like going uphill, we
>don't imagine are even possible because of our limited view."
>
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm simply asking that user
perspective is taken into consideration at least as much as the
programmer's own.
The starting point ought always to be that computers are there
to aid humans. And not all humans take to computing as well as
programmers do. It's just obvious to me - why should it sound so
"strange" to programmers? :-)
Also, your comments do not address the main point in my message,
which was about "revealing codes" for document options that go
beyond plain styling.
marina
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Wednesday 14 May 2014 05:29:45 PM Brian Barker wrote:
> At 23:38 14/05/2014 +1000, Marina Tadiello wrote:
> >In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one example of
> >how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to think ("program")
> >and behave like computers.
Yes, manual formatting is available. But using it is kind of perverse, because
it means doing more work than necessary, and cutting yourself off from
important features.
Here's how I describe manual formatting in the introduction to the book I'm in
the middle of completing:
"Office suites are as old as the personal computer. Yet, after more than thirty
years, few of us have bothered to learn how to use them.
"Oh, we have learned how to get things done in them. Most of us can format a
document and print it out, after a fashion. But what we haven't learned is to
do these things efficiently, taking advantage of all the tools that are
available.
"It is as if we have learned enough about cars to go down hill in them and
coast across level ground, but never learned about the ignition. We get things
done, but with more effort and less efficiency that we should. Some tasks, like
going uphill, we don't imagine are even possible because of our limited view."
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
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website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Felmon Davis <da...@union.edu>.
On Wed, 14 May 2014, Brian Barker wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Have you ever been asked to double-space a document? Probably. Has anyone
> ever asked you instead to set double spacing at the beginning of the document
> and then turn it off at the end? Of course not: that's not how people think
> and speak!
>
>
[sorry for snipping so much context!]
I probably don't grasp your idea here but there's nothing unhuman
about being asked to set double-spacing from one spot in a document to
another (or more plausibly, to indent "from here to there").
of course this is a very good use for styles. I use both styles and
direct formatting ('like a typewriter') according to my needs and
purposes though since 'default formatting' is itself a 'style', I
guess one always uses styles.
not directed at you specifically but I see no need to be dogmatic; I'm
happy enough with using these tools to fit my needs but I definitely
would love it if 'reveal codes' were possible as I've run across
situations where there's a bit of code 'stuck' somewhere doing devilry
and it's hard to find. cutting and pasting in again without formatting
is clumsy.
F.
--
Felmon Davis
It's hard to keep your shirt on when you're getting something off your chest.
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>.
On 05/14/2014 10:17 PM, Julian Thomas wrote:
> On 14 May 2014, at 09:38, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
>
>> While I have learned how to (use and) appreciate the Styles features, I agree that not everything in every given text document is prone to being "styled".
> As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles. I'd still like to see some helpful information on how to get started with styles (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I tried those tutorials and they didn't work very well for me]) and a reference.
>
> jt
>
>
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Chapter 6 and 7 of the Writer Guide available at this link:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Writer_Guide
--Dan
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Peter Johansson <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 3:12 AM, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
> To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to me that you
> are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like you don't really know
> WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to be something other than it was.
I can't speak for the others, but as someone who worked helpdesk
support in the days of WordPerfect 4.2 I am well aware of what reveal
codes does. Fixing peoples fubared documents in reveal codes what 90%
of that job.
If your word processor requires reveal codes to fix formatting issues
it is fundamentally flawed in other ways. The proper fix is *not* to
add reveal codes, but rather to address the fundamental problems
directly so that reveal codes is not necessary in the first place.
-p.
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
On 15 May 2014, at 07:15, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> We are preparing new documentation under the Apache License here:
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide/Writer/Styles
> Feel free to review and improve it. If you need a wiki account, just ask here (this applies to everybody on this list, of course).
went there, found this:
> About the List Styles and How to Use Them
>
> We already talked about numbered lists and bullets as manual formatting. This method, while quick to implement for a single list becomes a problem when we need several lists, all of them maintaining consistency in formatting: here is where the use of list styles is important. List styles are particular in Writer, because they are never applied directly: even when manually applying a list style, all we get is the paragraph calling the list style.
> Indeed, the list styles are always called from a paragraph, either through direct formatting or with the use of styles. In fact, when editing a paragraph style (or the format for a particular paragraph) on the Outline & Numbering tab we have a "Numbering Style" drop down menu: selecting an existing list style the paragraph style (or the particular paragraph) we are modifying will be numbered with the list style.
Sigh. This is hardly what I would call a tutorial. I am not [yet] competent to improve this since I am struggling mightily to get the basics of list style formatting.
Thanks. When this is brought up to snuff, it should help with these issues that desperately need to be un-arcaned [if I may coin a word].
What I want to be able to do is a list like this:
1. blah
2. blech
* blech2
3. Ugh
and then be able to go back to 1 and insert a bullet underneath it, or enter a bulleted item under 3
* Ugga
and then be able to go back and enter
4. Yuck
OO does not deal well with this; I find that if I don't do 4. Yuck before I do 3. * ugga, the numbering and alignment is all messed up.
Try it - you won't like it!
jt
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Julian Thomas wrote:
> As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles. I'd
> still like to see some helpful information on how to get started with
> styles (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I tried those tutorials
> and they didn't work very well for me]) and a reference.
We are preparing new documentation under the Apache License here:
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide/Writer/Styles
Feel free to review and improve it. If you need a wiki account, just ask
here (this applies to everybody on this list, of course).
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Catherine RIOBÉ <ri...@noos.fr>.
please dont send me emails any more. I am a particular person.
Le 17 mai 2014 à 05:24, Bruce Byfield a écrit :
> On Friday 16 May 2014 10:28:44 PM Julian Thomas wrote:
>>> But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. If people
>>> like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the
>>> programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or
>>> shouldn't it??
>> On 16 May 2014, at 03:12, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
>>> Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used to
>>> learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and
>>> after investing many hours doing just that, I have found that using
>>> styles can save some time with complex documents.
>> As I said earlier, I'm struggling with styles [since it seems to be the way
>> to go, I need to get up to speed] but need something more than 'my pets'
>> and 'my cats' - particularly with regard to list formatting [mixing
>> numbered lists and bulleted subitems under the numbered items; this has
>> always been a major hassle without styles].
>
> Have you looked at the ODF Author's site? You should find some decent
> documentation there.
>
> --
> Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
> blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
> website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Friday 16 May 2014 10:28:44 PM Julian Thomas wrote:
> > But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. If people
> > like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the
> > programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or
> > shouldn't it??
> On 16 May 2014, at 03:12, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
> > Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used to
> > learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and
> > after investing many hours doing just that, I have found that using
> > styles can save some time with complex documents.
> As I said earlier, I'm struggling with styles [since it seems to be the way
> to go, I need to get up to speed] but need something more than 'my pets'
> and 'my cats' - particularly with regard to list formatting [mixing
> numbered lists and bulleted subitems under the numbered items; this has
> always been a major hassle without styles].
Have you looked at the ODF Author's site? You should find some decent
documentation there.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
> But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. If people like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or shouldn't it??
On 16 May 2014, at 03:12, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
> Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used to learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and after investing many hours doing just that, I have found that using styles can save some time with complex documents.
As I said earlier, I'm struggling with styles [since it seems to be the way to go, I need to get up to speed] but need something more than 'my pets' and 'my cats' - particularly with regard to list formatting [mixing numbered lists and bulleted subitems under the numbered items; this has always been a major hassle without styles].
<curmedgeon on>
Features without good documentation are barely usable.
</curmedgeon off>
jt
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Sat, 17 May 2014 00:18:32 -0700
Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net> wrote:
> On Saturday 17 May 2014 12:32:43 AM Doug wrote:
>
> > My beef is that when you find something weird happening, it's likely to
> > be because of some "style" that you weren't aware of, and _you can't fix
> > it, because__
> > __it's built into the "style." _
>
> Are your experiences with styles with someone else's template, or else one
> that has been developed by a lot of different people with no attempt at
> consistency? I'm asking because these are the only scenarios in which I can
> imagine the difficulties you describe.
>
> Apart from the default style and a few advanced cases like the Content styles
> that are automatically applied when you create a table of contents, styles are
> not just randomly applied. They're in the document because you put them there,
> and you can see them in the Applied Styles view of the Styles and Formatting
> window. So how could you not be aware of them?
>
> As for features that are part of a style, I can't think of any offhand that
> can't be adjusted, turned off, or at least set to zero. To the contrary, you
> can set most settings with extreme accuracy.
>
> The closest thing that I can imagine to things you can't change because
> they're built into the style are defaults that suddenly come in play because
> you've made some change. For example, in Draw, if you add text to an object,
> suddenly settings like font and font size are activated that previously did
> nothing. But it should be obvious when you've added something like that.
>
> > PS: I don't intend to memorize a whole bunch of "styles"--I did my last
> > memorization with WordStar in CPM and then in DOS.
>
> Why would you have to memorize anything? You can preview styles in the
> toolbar, and use the views in the Styles and Formatting window to find what you
> want. Usually, too, the names of the pre-defined styles should tell you what
> each style does. For example, Text Body is obviously the main paragraph style
> in the document, and Title the name of the document.
>
> --
> Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
> blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
> website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
On the English language forum there is a useful list and details of the inbuilt Styles
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=48530
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
On Saturday 17 May 2014 12:32:43 AM Doug wrote:
> My beef is that when you find something weird happening, it's likely to
> be because of some "style" that you weren't aware of, and _you can't fix
> it, because__
> __it's built into the "style." _
Are your experiences with styles with someone else's template, or else one
that has been developed by a lot of different people with no attempt at
consistency? I'm asking because these are the only scenarios in which I can
imagine the difficulties you describe.
Apart from the default style and a few advanced cases like the Content styles
that are automatically applied when you create a table of contents, styles are
not just randomly applied. They're in the document because you put them there,
and you can see them in the Applied Styles view of the Styles and Formatting
window. So how could you not be aware of them?
As for features that are part of a style, I can't think of any offhand that
can't be adjusted, turned off, or at least set to zero. To the contrary, you
can set most settings with extreme accuracy.
The closest thing that I can imagine to things you can't change because
they're built into the style are defaults that suddenly come in play because
you've made some change. For example, in Draw, if you add text to an object,
suddenly settings like font and font size are activated that previously did
nothing. But it should be obvious when you've added something like that.
> PS: I don't intend to memorize a whole bunch of "styles"--I did my last
> memorization with WordStar in CPM and then in DOS.
Why would you have to memorize anything? You can preview styles in the
toolbar, and use the views in the Styles and Formatting window to find what you
want. Usually, too, the names of the pre-defined styles should tell you what
each style does. For example, Text Body is obviously the main paragraph style
in the document, and Title the name of the document.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Bruce Byfield <bb...@axion.net>.
> On 05/16/2014 03:12 AM, mt wrote:
> > To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to me
> > that you are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like you don't
> > really know WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to be something
> > other than it was.
In my case, what is "quite obvious" is wrong. I used WordPerfect for a number
of years, including writing my thesis in it. I hated Reveal Codes, finding it
clunky and time-consuming.
> > But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me.
I've been a user of OpenOffice since the 1.0 release -- for over 12 years.
Surely you aren't suggesting that it isn't for people like me just as much?
> > If people like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the
> > programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or
> > shouldn't it??
Yes and no.
On the one hand, everyone wants the program to be useful. That's why bug-filing
include suggestions for enhancement. I've got one or two I'd like to see
realized myself.
On the other hand, working on OpenOffice is not a job for all the developers,
and, besides, there's a long tradition in free software of working on what
interests you, even if you're getting paid.
Furthermore, as in most free software projects, there is always far more to do
than people to do it. Those involved have to decide what priority requests
have, how complicated they are to implement, and how they complement the
existing code. For instance, would any existing feature have to be re-written
to be compatible with the proposed new one?
In the case of a Reveal Codes feature, there has historically been a lack of
interest in implementing it and some complications involved that, so far, no
one has wanted to tackle. It's not a feature that someone is likely undertake
because it can implemented in a couple of hours.
So it's not just enough for one or two people to express a wish for a feature
and then sit back and wait for the developers to fulfill their wishes.
If you really want to see a Reveal Codes feature, you need to start a
campaign, not just requesting it, but also developing use cases that explain
why it is important, and learning enough to suggest possible approaches that
can overcome the challenges of implementing it. You need to convince people
that the feature should have priority.. That's how free software works, and,
from what I have seen while reading mailing lists, OpenOffice is no exception.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
blog: https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com
website: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield/
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Doug <dm...@optonline.net>.
On 05/16/2014 03:12 AM, mt wrote:
> On 14/5/14 at 12:17 PM, jt@jt-mj.net (Julian Thomas) wrote:
>
>>
>> As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles. I'd
>> still like to see some helpful information on how to get started with
>> styles (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I tried those tutorials
>> and they didn't work very well for me]) and a reference.
>>
>
> Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used
> to learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error,
> and after investing many hours doing just that, I have found that
> using styles can save some time with complex documents.
>
> (I write and translate books, so using styles was "forced" on me by my
> editors, a dozen years ago or so. As of today, I am still sort of
> unsure what amount of time I have *effectively* saved by learning how
> to use styles - but I was given no option, and now that I've grown
> accustomed to styles, it's possible I am starting to save time. Twelve
> years, and many books down the track....! >:] )
>
> To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to me
> that you are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like you don't
> really know WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to be something
> other than it was.
>
> But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me. If
> people like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should be the
> programmer's job to consider it from the user's perspective... or
> shouldn't it??
>
> Again, I would like to say thank you to those who give their time for
> free to build and improve OpenOffice. This includes those who put
> forward useful suggestions "from the user's perspective" :-)
>
> marina
>
I had really intended not to comment on this again, having thought I had
said it all, but I guess I was wrong.
My beef is not particularly about reveal codes, altho that's certainly
useful, when you want to find something weird happening at the end of a
line, say.
My beef is that when you find something weird happening, it's likely to
be because of some "style" that you weren't aware of, and _you can't fix
it, because__
__it's built into the "style." _ I think I said something like this in
my first post on the subject, but maybe i did not make myself clear.
So, yes, I want a somewhat intelligent typewriter, and no, I don't see
anything at all wrong with that!
--doug
PS: I don't intend to memorize a whole bunch of "styles"--I did my last
memorization with WordStar in CPM and then in DOS.
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
On 20 May 2014, at 03:52, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
> The best style manual I have come across was the ancient Hakon Wium Lie's CSS book - and in fact, it's been easier for me to master styles in writer applications after grasping the CSS concept. Of course experience with HTML (from version 1...) also helped greatly, in terms of understanding how to design "structured documents".
Duh! I know and use CSS but it took this posting to beat me over the head and see the similarity. Allovassudden it looks intuitive to me - I think I'm off to the races now!
Many many thanks! jt
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by mt <mt...@lockedbags.org>.
On 19/5/14 at 12:05 PM, jt@jt-mj.net (Julian Thomas) wrote:
>.... Is there a better manual than the online help that I'm missing?
>
>cheers - jt
>
The best style manual I have come across was the ancient Hakon
Wium Lie's CSS book - and in fact, it's been easier for me to
master styles in writer applications after grasping the CSS
concept. Of course experience with HTML (from version 1...) also
helped greatly, in terms of understanding how to design
"structured documents".
It might be easier for you, too, to understand Styles if you
look at your document's structure: headings, normal paragraphs,
indented paragraphs, bullet or number lists can all be defined
as individual "paragraph styles", which then become available
for other parts of the document. Or, if you save these styles to
a style library, for all other documents. Similarly, you can
define "character styles" for things like bold, italic, or
coloured text that does not span the whole extent of a paragraph.
I found it was easier for me to work with my own styles. If you
take the "New style based on selection" approach, you'll be able
to see how attributes are assigned.
I know this is very rough... hope it helps a little bit!
marina
---
MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
@martadiello
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
On 16 May 2014, at 03:12, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
> Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm used to learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and after investing many hours doing just that, I have found that using styles can save some time with complex documents.
>
> (I write and translate books, so using styles was "forced" on me by my editors, a dozen years ago or so. As of today, I am still sort of unsure what amount of time I have *effectively* saved by learning how to use styles - but I was given no option, and now that I've grown accustomed to styles, it's possible I am starting to save time. Twelve years, and many books down the track....! >:] )
>
> To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to me that you are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like you don't really know WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to be something other than it was.
Thanks for the support. I used WordPerfect from the days when it came from Satellite Systems [or something like that before wordperfect corp - if you were there then you may remember Pete Peterson's 'bedtime stories' on the compuserve forum] and used it through WP 6 on DOS until they abandoned OS2 and I went in other directions. Have been on OO since the early days of Star Office for OS2; now I've moved to Mac OSX.
I've had the same frustration with other word processors [most prominently DeScribe] where again the issue of 'reveal codes' was hotly debated in the discussion groups.
I don't care about the d**n codes themselves; I just need to know what formatting is applied how and where [and how to adjust it]! In WP you could actually edit the codes [delete a code was the most useful] and fix the document.
If anyone cares, I *think* I can fire up an old wordperfect 6 dos session and get a screen shot of what reveal codes looks like.
I'm not opposed to the use of styles, but need a shorter learning curve than
>
> I'm used to learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial and error, and after investing many hours doing just that
Is there a better manual than the online help that I'm missing?
cheers - jt
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by mt <mt...@lockedbags.org>.
On 14/5/14 at 12:17 PM, jt@jt-mj.net (Julian Thomas) wrote:
>
>As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles.
>I'd still like to see some helpful information on how to get
>started with styles (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I
>tried those tutorials and they didn't work very well for me])
>and a reference.
>
Sorry I can't help Julian, I have found no tutorials at all. I'm
used to learning by reading the manual and then lots of trial
and error, and after investing many hours doing just that, I
have found that using styles can save some time with complex documents.
(I write and translate books, so using styles was "forced" on me
by my editors, a dozen years ago or so. As of today, I am still
sort of unsure what amount of time I have *effectively* saved by
learning how to use styles - but I was given no option, and now
that I've grown accustomed to styles, it's possible I am
starting to save time. Twelve years, and many books down the
track....! >:] )
To those who chimed in to justify styles: it is quite obvious to
me that you are missing the point. For starters, it sounds like
you don't really know WordPerfect, and imagine "Reveal codes" to
be something other than it was.
But more basically, OpenOffice is for people like Julian and me.
If people like me and Julian put forward a suggestion, it should
be the programmer's job to consider it from the user's
perspective... or shouldn't it??
Again, I would like to say thank you to those who give their
time for free to build and improve OpenOffice. This includes
those who put forward useful suggestions "from the user's
perspective" :-)
marina
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Julian Thomas <jt...@jt-mj.net>.
On 14 May 2014, at 09:38, mt <mt...@lockedbags.org> wrote:
> While I have learned how to (use and) appreciate the Styles features, I agree that not everything in every given text document is prone to being "styled".
As a longtime Star office and now OO user, I am new to styles. I'd still like to see some helpful information on how to get started with styles (better than 'my pets' and 'my cats'; [I tried those tutorials and they didn't work very well for me]) and a reference.
jt
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by mt <mt...@lockedbags.org>.
While I have learned how to (use and) appreciate the Styles
features, I agree that not everything in every given text
document is prone to being "styled".
Sometimes it's just not worth spending the time required to
define a new Style (or find a suitable one among those already
defined), so it's simpler to change format on the fly. This is,
I believe, where a "Reveal codes" option would be ideal.
Also, from my remote memories of WordPerfect, "Reveal codes" was
necessary (in complex documents) for changes in page format,
orientation, table dimensions, and other document options that
went beyond "simple" word and paragraph formatting.
In general, and from a user's perspective, Styles are one
example of how common users are encouraged (or forced? :-) to
think ("program") and behave like computers. This is not
necessarily the best way to ensure "user satisfaction".
So while I understand that Styles have a place in modern
applications, I would appreciate it if program designers could
make better efforts to grasp the average user's point of view.
This, without limiting my gratitude to OO developers!!
marina
---
Italy or Australia?
MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, OS X 10.6.8
@martadiello
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by ci...@gmx.com.
Thanks Rory
Understood. But that is not the same as being able to hit 'reveal
codes' see exactly where the style is turned on and off (as you can
currently do for some formatting with the 'Non-printing Characters'
command. It would be a lot more foolproof, particularly when having
problems.
That was the beauty of Word Perfect in this respect.
On 13 May 2014, at 15:25, Rory O'Farrell wrote:
> If you position your cursor in a paragraph, the Style for that
> Paragraph is shown on the left of the Formatting toolbar. If you
> have the Stylist open (F11 or /Format /Styles and Formatting) the
> Paragraph style under the cursor is highlighted; ditto for the
> character style under the cursor, and also the page style for the
> current page. The current page style is also shown centre left of
> the Status Bar.
>
> A useful guide to the predefined styles (which styles you can
> customise) is given at
> https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=48530
>
>
>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Tue, 13 May 2014 13:10:16 +0100
circulars@gmx.com wrote:
> Reveal codes was a marvellously useful feature of Word Perfect. If it
> be that we can't have that, could we at least have a 'reveal styles'
> command instead? There is no ready and full-proof way to do this at
> the moment. Presumably that would be a more acceptable compromise.
>
>
> On 13 May 2014, at 08:19, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>
> > Sarala Lee wrote:
> >> However there is one very important property (if that's the right
> >> word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I
> >> have used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes"
> >
> > This has been discussed at length for years. OpenOffice historically
> > has always used styles instead. If some developers want to work on
> > such a feature, their contribution is surely welcome (and they can
> > get help on our dev list), but at the moment there are no "official"
> > efforts towards this. See the long discussion at
> > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
> > for the current status.
> >
> > Gordon: you received many answers. If you didn't see them, you are
> > not subscribed, see the archives: http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html#users-mailing-list-public
> >
> > Regards,
> > Andrea.
> >
If you position your cursor in a paragraph, the Style for that Paragraph is shown on the left of the Formatting toolbar. If you have the Stylist open (F11 or /Format /Styles and Formatting) the Paragraph style under the cursor is highlighted; ditto for the character style under the cursor, and also the page style for the current page. The current page style is also shown centre left of the Status Bar.
A useful guide to the predefined styles (which styles you can customise) is given at
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=48530
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: Suggestion.
Posted by ci...@gmx.com.
Reveal codes was a marvellously useful feature of Word Perfect. If it
be that we can't have that, could we at least have a 'reveal styles'
command instead? There is no ready and full-proof way to do this at
the moment. Presumably that would be a more acceptable compromise.
On 13 May 2014, at 08:19, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Sarala Lee wrote:
>> However there is one very important property (if that's the right
>> word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I
>> have used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes"
>
> This has been discussed at length for years. OpenOffice historically
> has always used styles instead. If some developers want to work on
> such a feature, their contribution is surely welcome (and they can
> get help on our dev list), but at the moment there are no "official"
> efforts towards this. See the long discussion at
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
> for the current status.
>
> Gordon: you received many answers. If you didn't see them, you are
> not subscribed, see the archives: http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html#users-mailing-list-public
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
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>
Re: Suggestion.
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Sarala Lee wrote:
> However there is one very important property (if that's the right
> word) that WP had that is missing from all the Word Processors that I
> have used. That is what WP called "Reveal Codes"
This has been discussed at length for years. OpenOffice historically has
always used styles instead. If some developers want to work on such a
feature, their contribution is surely welcome (and they can get help on
our dev list), but at the moment there are no "official" efforts towards
this. See the long discussion at
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395
for the current status.
Gordon: you received many answers. If you didn't see them, you are not
subscribed, see the archives:
http://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html#users-mailing-list-public
Regards,
Andrea.
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