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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie> on 2015/11/22 23:33:56 UTC
Re: [QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:29:07 -0800
"Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org> wrote:
> I remain puzzled about the use of Forums as places to pre-discuss issues with proposed resolutions brought to Bugzilla or dev@ to "verify consensus." I can easily be guilty of having not paid attention. Or there is a simple misunderstanding on my part?
I think you are misunderstanding: A forum is a discussion place, where an open discussion, in this context on proposals, can be held. Hopefully, after a good discussion, a consensus on improvement can be reached and the proposal, which is in the open, may either be adopted by a code writer (hopefully a new recruit) or a link to the forum discussion posted back to a Bugzilla thread.
Note that the general view of less experienced users is that Bugzilla is unfriendly - they dislike the need to open a new account, not understanding why their Forum account is not valid on Bugzilla. They also often do not have the discipline to write a succinct analysis of their problem and regard the tags of "unconfirmed", "won't fix" etc as dismissive.
In my personal view, Bugzilla is adequate for bug fixing, but is not the best forum for enhancement proposals.
Rory
>
> I am very interested in seeing coupling of dev@, users@, Bugzilla, and the forums in a way where issues can be addressed and possibly resolved after confirmation of understanding.
>
> I have questions.
>
> 1. Where is it established that the Forum is the preferred place for this, sort of out-of-site of the other three places where issues are brought to our attention? How is a member of our public with a concern or request informed and guided about this?
>
> 2. How has this worked so far? What are examples of this approach bringing issues/resolutions to dev@ and/or Bugzilla that succeeded (whatever success means)?
>
> - Dennis
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orcmid@apache.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:29
> > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS] (was RE: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace"
> > dialog enhancements)
> >
> > I don't understand this.
> >
> > Issues are a place to provide a tracked account for something being
> > worked on with regard to defects, and that includes usability matters
> > and even determination of what the defect is, if any. It is the only
> > place where there is a single URL and a mailing-list account that fits
> > typical Apache processes.
> >
> > I think discussions of these matters on forums is great. I would prefer
> > there to be stronger bidirectional coupling and easy ways for people to
> > follow links to specific places on the different services. So if
> > something starts out on Bugzilla, and there is a Forum discussion that
> > goes with it or is started from it, they should be coupled.
> >
> > My concern is that discussions are disconnected from the developers who
> > have to decide on what and how action is to be taken, the users who
> > report/analyze defect reports, and forum threads which may have
> > satisfying conclusions and simply stop there. I am all for greater
> > inclusion. Let's keep the multiple places where the same subject arises
> > connected.
> >
> > I don't recall the forums being given the prominence that is suggested
> > here. Should we put FAQ messages on dev@ and users@ describing the
> > desired practice, say monthly? I assume blogs are not meant as part of
> > this but as other ways of informing the public about something.
> >
> > - Dennis
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
> > > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 15:03
> > > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace" dialog enhancements
> > >
> > > On 16/11/2015 Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > > > One or more issues should be opened on Bugzilla as well, with cross-
> > > linking to the Forum thread(s).
> > > > That's important as a matter of governance. The Forum threads are
> > not
> > > fully part of the governance and accountability structure of the
> > > project.
> > >
> > > The discussion is brought to the Forum as an initial, open, free,
> > > discussion, to gather feedback from users. Decision-making is done on
> > > lists but here we are in a "discovery" phase where we simply ask
> > people
> > > for feedback, and the right channels for this are the blog and the
> > > forum, places where we reach our end-users.
> > >
> > > Then, in a normal workflow, a proposal should be brought to the dev
> > list
> > > to verify consensus, and issues opened on Bugzilla to track
> > development.
> > [orcmid]
> > That's my problem. I'm concerned about "verifying consensus" where
> > deliberations are elsewhere.
> > >
> > > That said, I for one value end result more than the process, so I
> > won't
> > > insist on where we should take the various steps; but it's sad to see
> > > that nothing gets ever posted to the blog, even though we would have
> > > materials for posts.
> > [orcmid]
> > The AOO blog is not exactly an easy thing to create articles for. It is
> > definitely not a place for discussion, unless we more-actively moderate
> > comments.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Andrea.
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: [QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Le 23/11/2015 01:06, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> I also have a moderate concern that the Forum community is perhaps too separate from the rest of the project and we need a way for all voices to be heard, including working out proposals for remedies. In both directions. Any ideas on how to facilitate that?
When developers need feedback from the forum users, they can ask on the dev mailing list. There are already some power users from the forum who are subscribed. This is what happened in the current case. It may be easier to tag the object with something like [Forum] so that we spot it more quickly (well, talking about myself mainly here...).
What would be the list requirement exactly from the forum users? For example, Rory often reports the interesting discussions that can occur in the forum.
Hagar
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RE: [QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 14:34
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [QUESTIONS] RE: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS]
>
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:29:07 -0800
> "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I remain puzzled about the use of Forums as places to pre-discuss
> issues with proposed resolutions brought to Bugzilla or dev@ to "verify
> consensus." I can easily be guilty of having not paid attention. Or
> there is a simple misunderstanding on my part?
>
> I think you are misunderstanding: A forum is a discussion place, where
> an open discussion, in this context on proposals, can be held.
> Hopefully, after a good discussion, a consensus on improvement can be
> reached and the proposal, which is in the open, may either be adopted by
> a code writer (hopefully a new recruit) or a link to the forum
> discussion posted back to a Bugzilla thread.
>
> Note that the general view of less experienced users is that Bugzilla is
> unfriendly - they dislike the need to open a new account, not
> understanding why their Forum account is not valid on Bugzilla. They
> also often do not have the discipline to write a succinct analysis of
> their problem and regard the tags of "unconfirmed", "won't fix" etc as
> dismissive.
>
> In my personal view, Bugzilla is adequate for bug fixing, but is not the
> best forum for enhancement proposals.
>
> Rory
[orcmid]
Thanks Rory,
I agree that the Bugzilla is very difficult to bring to bear and
conventional users have much difficulty with it. However, I don't see a
problem with one of the experienced experts, administrators, or
participating devs creating the issue.
It is also helpful to create the issue early so that people who do start
from or monitor issues have a better picture and won't miss that there is a
companion discussion on the Forum.
My biggest concern is how usability issues are not being captured (and dealt
with) on the Bugzilla, which is not a problem of the forum team and it will
have to be addressed elsewhere. I don't share the belief that Bugzilla
issues are only about identifiable code defects. That is a conversation for
a different thread though.
I also have a moderate concern that the Forum community is perhaps too
separate from the rest of the project and we need a way for all voices to be
heard, including working out proposals for remedies. In both directions.
Any ideas on how to facilitate that?
>
>
> >
> > I am very interested in seeing coupling of dev@, users@, Bugzilla, and
> the forums in a way where issues can be addressed and possibly resolved
> after confirmation of understanding.
> >
> > I have questions.
> >
> > 1. Where is it established that the Forum is the preferred place for
> this, sort of out-of-site of the other three places where issues are
> brought to our attention? How is a member of our public with a concern
> or request informed and guided about this?
> >
> > 2. How has this worked so far? What are examples of this approach
> bringing issues/resolutions to dev@ and/or Bugzilla that succeeded
> (whatever success means)?
> >
> > - Dennis
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orcmid@apache.org]
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:29
> > > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > > Subject: [ISSUE DISCUSSIONS] (was RE: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace"
> > > dialog enhancements)
> > >
> > > I don't understand this.
> > >
> > > Issues are a place to provide a tracked account for something being
> > > worked on with regard to defects, and that includes usability
> matters
> > > and even determination of what the defect is, if any. It is the
> only
> > > place where there is a single URL and a mailing-list account that
> fits
> > > typical Apache processes.
> > >
> > > I think discussions of these matters on forums is great. I would
> prefer
> > > there to be stronger bidirectional coupling and easy ways for people
> to
> > > follow links to specific places on the different services. So if
> > > something starts out on Bugzilla, and there is a Forum discussion
> that
> > > goes with it or is started from it, they should be coupled.
> > >
> > > My concern is that discussions are disconnected from the developers
> who
> > > have to decide on what and how action is to be taken, the users who
> > > report/analyze defect reports, and forum threads which may have
> > > satisfying conclusions and simply stop there. I am all for greater
> > > inclusion. Let's keep the multiple places where the same subject
> arises
> > > connected.
> > >
> > > I don't recall the forums being given the prominence that is
> suggested
> > > here. Should we put FAQ messages on dev@ and users@ describing the
> > > desired practice, say monthly? I assume blogs are not meant as
> part of
> > > this but as other ways of informing the public about something.
> > >
> > > - Dennis
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
> > > > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 15:03
> > > > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: Proposed Calc "Find & Replace" dialog enhancements
> > > >
> > > > On 16/11/2015 Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > > > > One or more issues should be opened on Bugzilla as well, with
> cross-
> > > > linking to the Forum thread(s).
> > > > > That's important as a matter of governance. The Forum threads
> are
> > > not
> > > > fully part of the governance and accountability structure of the
> > > > project.
> > > >
> > > > The discussion is brought to the Forum as an initial, open, free,
> > > > discussion, to gather feedback from users. Decision-making is done
> on
> > > > lists but here we are in a "discovery" phase where we simply ask
> > > people
> > > > for feedback, and the right channels for this are the blog and the
> > > > forum, places where we reach our end-users.
> > > >
> > > > Then, in a normal workflow, a proposal should be brought to the
> dev
> > > list
> > > > to verify consensus, and issues opened on Bugzilla to track
> > > development.
> > > [orcmid]
> > > That's my problem. I'm concerned about "verifying consensus" where
> > > deliberations are elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > > That said, I for one value end result more than the process, so I
> > > won't
> > > > insist on where we should take the various steps; but it's sad to
> see
> > > > that nothing gets ever posted to the blog, even though we would
> have
> > > > materials for posts.
> > > [orcmid]
> > > The AOO blog is not exactly an easy thing to create articles for.
> It is
> > > definitely not a place for discussion, unless we more-actively
> moderate
> > > comments.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Andrea.
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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