RE: sharing microsoft experience

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

After this, I rest my case...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> Sent: vrijdag 30 november 2001 16:59
> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: sharing microsoft experience
>

[...]

> Absolutely. Right now you can have Netscape and IE cohexist, but *NOT*
> two different IE versions in the same machine. This is, IMO, a *severe*
> limitation that OS-decoupled browsers don't have.
>
> > > I wouldn't want to be the one who requires IE 6 for their editor but has
> > > to deploy it on a intranet where a two-years-old IE4-based webapp does
> > > email and calendar. Have fun porting your wonderful XML-stuff over to
> > > IE4!
> >
> > same goes for NS, and until there is a sequel to the yet to be released Moz 1.0
> > release we do not know what backwards compatibility means to the Mozilla
> community
> > (really no pun intended)
>
> Good point, but *at least* I can have the user install two different
> versions (probably without even knowing: I could build my editor with
> mozilla underneath but without letting them know. It's a choice, anyway.
> Something that IE doesn't give me (you can't ask for a *version* of the
> same dll in windows!)

OK, as long as the user doesn't have to install 2 *browsers*. He'll be perfectly
happy to install a CMS-client, but not a second browser on his machine. Furthermore,
after many trials to create a browser-based (i.e.: forms, stateless, much screens to
imitate a copy/paste action, ...) CMS client, I am pretty sure that the ideal CMS
client should support *real* UI interactions (explorer-like tree view, drag & drop,
stylized/wysiwyg XML/XHTML editing for rich text fields, the ability to search & sort
on columns on each list that you show, preferably remote editing (for nomadic
users)...

I should read up on the facilities offered by Mozilla in this perspective - and if
not, Java Swing seems like a good alternative to heavy plumbing on top of a browser
framework, and a programming language that is likely to be in more proficient use
with the members of this group ;-)

> But I hate when they follow mafia-type business guidelines. I hate how
> they ruined SoftImage. I hate how they tried to kill Java and then
> reinvent the wheel with C#. I hate how they ruined the word-processor

You haven't been looking at J# recently, or you would be even *less* merciful on MS
:-)

> An agenda which allows me, with hard work, to overcome all the obstacles
> without requiring huge payments (as a corporation), huge political power
> (as a government), or a huge ego, time and luck (to overthrow Bill going
> to work for them).
>
> Sorry, but I find this ability to be actively responsible for my
> technological future more appealing than any functionality they could
> give me right now.

This is politics - not to be discussed on cocoon-dev ;-)

[...]

> > >  4) mozilla is designed for portability and open standards compliance.
> >
> > come on - their XSLT support is severly lacking, the parser inside is ages old...
>
> :) what if I wrap Xalan C and Xerces C with XPCOM components? tell me,
> how hard would that be? (ActiveState already does it).

Uh-oh. Mozilla is cool. Cocoon is cool. We want to do something CMS-like on top of
both. Let's use Mozilla. That we have to guide a Java-centric community towards C++
plumbing because a fellow-OSS-project is in dire need of an audience, I do not
understand.

> What I mean is that you can bet your ass the Mozilla community will not
> use some proprietary extensions to open standards to lock you in, as I
> would be expecting from Microsoft. Call me paranoid, but I don't want to
> bet my future on Microsoft new open attitude.

Yes, you're paranoid ;-) But not enough! Sun is equally bad, and so is each & every
commercial entity that tries to abuse IPR-laws to make money. And MS is playing
toughball because they are the only one that make money on *only* software.

> What would you do, then? a java application? a flash object?

What's wrong with Java?

My two scenarios are:

  - a Java client app, being it Swing or SWT-based that behaves and feels like a
native OS app
  - a web-based app that unfortunately will not offer the same useability as a real
client

possible alternative would indeed be to build a client app that uses Mozilla
technology packaged in the style of Activestate, but for this, I believe the effort
and shift of focus warrants this *not* to be an ASF/XML-ASF/Cocoon-project.

> I considered all possible technological solutions available today and
> tried to forecase their future. Mozilla is the winner, even if,
> admittedly, has some limitations. All others solutions had some worse
> limitations.
>
> Anyway, I'm wide open to suggestions.

Thank you!

Regards,

</Steven>


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Re: sharing microsoft experience

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Steven Noels wrote:

> Uh-oh. Mozilla is cool. Cocoon is cool. We want to do something CMS-like on top of
> both. Let's use Mozilla. That we have to guide a Java-centric community towards C++
> plumbing because a fellow-OSS-project is in dire need of an audience, I do not
> understand.

If you think I'm doing this because Mozilla is in need of an audience,
you didn't get my point (see below).
 
> > What would you do, then? a java application? a flash object?
> 
> What's wrong with Java?

I want to do be able to do WYSIWYG inline editing and I need a full
browser for that (HTML + CSS + javascript). HotJava sucks. Jazilla,
well, it's dead, it's a memory hog and not compliant.

Should I write my own fully compliant java browser just to have inline
editing?

> My two scenarios are:
> 
>   - a Java client app, being it Swing or SWT-based that behaves and feels like a
> native OS app
>   - a web-based app that unfortunately will not offer the same useability as a real
> client
> 
> possible alternative would indeed be to build a client app that uses Mozilla
> technology packaged in the style of Activestate, but for this, I believe the effort
> and shift of focus warrants this *not* to be an ASF/XML-ASF/Cocoon-project.

Why do you think so?

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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