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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Geoff Callender <ge...@gmail.com> on 2013/10/30 08:04:56 UTC
[5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
I'm trying so very hard to keep my templates "preview-able" but it's getting oh-so-difficult. Is it time to stop trying and just get my web designer to use the same development environment as me?
When I say "preview-able template", I mean a template coded in such a way that a web page designer can open it in a web browser or WYSIWYG editor for "preview" and edit. The idea is that it looks close enough to the runtime page to be useful, and easily editable.
In the past, the techniques that have allowed this include:
* Invisible instrumentation (see http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/lang/previewabletemplates).
* The Remove component (see http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/styling/previewablewithstylesheets).
* The Content component.
But the obstacles have been growing and growing.
* These days a page is usually made from lots of complex components. None of these will be shown in the preview.
* AJAX-busy pages are often made from lots of components that show at different times. None of this will be shown in the preview.
* Complex components are often made from other complex components. None of these will be shown in the preview.
* Tapestry's own BeanEdit, BeanDisplay, and Grid, all preview terribly. If you put in the work to make them preview-able then you might as well not use them.
* A field might be replaced at runtime by a PropertyEditor. This will not be shown in the preview.
* I have to keep the Remove-d stylesheet link in the TML file in line with the @Import-ed stylesheet in the Java.
* With T5.4, Form labels and fields emit Bootstrap classes at runtime. These will not be shown in the preview.
So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same development environment as me?
Cheers,
Geoff
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Lenny Primak <lp...@hope.nyc.ny.us>.
It looks so.
I think this is a real shame IMHO, because one of the biggest differentiators of the Tapestry framework
are previewable templates.
In fact, originally, we chose Tapestry for all of our projects mostly because of this feature.
On Oct 30, 2013, at 3:04 AM, Geoff Callender wrote:
> I'm trying so very hard to keep my templates "preview-able" but it's getting oh-so-difficult. Is it time to stop trying and just get my web designer to use the same development environment as me?
>
> When I say "preview-able template", I mean a template coded in such a way that a web page designer can open it in a web browser or WYSIWYG editor for "preview" and edit. The idea is that it looks close enough to the runtime page to be useful, and easily editable.
>
> In the past, the techniques that have allowed this include:
>
> * Invisible instrumentation (see http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/lang/previewabletemplates).
> * The Remove component (see http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/styling/previewablewithstylesheets).
> * The Content component.
>
> But the obstacles have been growing and growing.
>
> * These days a page is usually made from lots of complex components. None of these will be shown in the preview.
> * AJAX-busy pages are often made from lots of components that show at different times. None of this will be shown in the preview.
> * Complex components are often made from other complex components. None of these will be shown in the preview.
> * Tapestry's own BeanEdit, BeanDisplay, and Grid, all preview terribly. If you put in the work to make them preview-able then you might as well not use them.
> * A field might be replaced at runtime by a PropertyEditor. This will not be shown in the preview.
> * I have to keep the Remove-d stylesheet link in the TML file in line with the @Import-ed stylesheet in the Java.
> * With T5.4, Form labels and fields emit Bootstrap classes at runtime. These will not be shown in the preview.
>
> So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same development environment as me?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Geoff
>
>
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Rural Hunter <ru...@gmail.com>.
I see. Thanks for the nice trick!
于 2013/10/31 20:27, Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo 写道:
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 22:16:59 -0200, Rural Hunter
> <ru...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thiago,
>>
>> Good answer and I learnt from it. Is there a good way to handle the
>> Layout thing?
>
> Yep!
>
> Here's an example and the code of the crud/Remove and crud/JustBody
> will be listed below. The Layout component is normal, declaring <htm>,
> <head>, <link type="text/css"> etc, plus a <body> with <t:body/>
> somewhere inside it.
>
> A page using the Layout component. Notice the use of crud/Remove and
> crud/JustBody:
>
> <html t:type="Layout"
> xmlns:t="http://tapestry.apache.org/schema/tapestry_5_3_0.xsd">
> <!-- For previewability, as this tag will not appear in generated
> pages -->
> <head t:type="crud/Remove">
> <title>Welcome!</title>
> <link href="css/main.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/>
> </head>
> <!-- The body tag will not appear in the generated page, just its
> contents (body). -->
> <body t:type="crud/JustBody">
> ... content ...
> </body>
> </html>
>
> crud/Remove (I'm not sure the DiscardBody mixin here is actually needed):
>
> /**
> * A component that doesn't render its tag nor its body. It is used for
> * previewability purposes and works a lot like Tapestry 4's
> <code>$remove$</code>.
> * One example can be found
> * <a
> href="http://ars-machina.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ars-machina/example/trunk/src/main/webapp/Index.tml?view=markup"
> * >in the Ars Machina Project Example Application</a>.
> *
> * @author Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> */
> public class Remove {
>
> @Mixin
> @SuppressWarnings("unused")
> private DiscardBody discardBody;
>
> @SetupRender
> public boolean nothing() {
> return true;
> }
>
> }
>
> crud/JustBody:
>
> /**
> * A component that just renders its body, not its tag, thus providing
> previewability
> * for Tapestry templates. It was meant to be used in the
> * <code>body</code> tag that in pages that use some Layout component.
> * One example can be found
> * <a
> href="http://ars-machina.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ars-machina/example/trunk/src/main/webapp/Index.tml?view=markup"
> * >in the Ars Machina Project Example Application</a>.
> *
> * @author Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> */
> public class JustBody {
>
> }
>
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 22:16:59 -0200, Rural Hunter <ru...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Thiago,
>
> Good answer and I learnt from it. Is there a good way to handle the
> Layout thing?
Yep!
Here's an example and the code of the crud/Remove and crud/JustBody will
be listed below. The Layout component is normal, declaring <htm>, <head>,
<link type="text/css"> etc, plus a <body> with <t:body/> somewhere inside
it.
A page using the Layout component. Notice the use of crud/Remove and
crud/JustBody:
<html t:type="Layout"
xmlns:t="http://tapestry.apache.org/schema/tapestry_5_3_0.xsd">
<!-- For previewability, as this tag will not appear in generated pages
-->
<head t:type="crud/Remove">
<title>Welcome!</title>
<link href="css/main.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css"/>
</head>
<!-- The body tag will not appear in the generated page, just its
contents (body). -->
<body t:type="crud/JustBody">
... content ...
</body>
</html>
crud/Remove (I'm not sure the DiscardBody mixin here is actually needed):
/**
* A component that doesn't render its tag nor its body. It is used for
* previewability purposes and works a lot like Tapestry 4's
<code>$remove$</code>.
* One example can be found
* <a
href="http://ars-machina.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ars-machina/example/trunk/src/main/webapp/Index.tml?view=markup"
* >in the Ars Machina Project Example Application</a>.
*
* @author Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
*/
public class Remove {
@Mixin
@SuppressWarnings("unused")
private DiscardBody discardBody;
@SetupRender
public boolean nothing() {
return true;
}
}
crud/JustBody:
/**
* A component that just renders its body, not its tag, thus providing
previewability
* for Tapestry templates. It was meant to be used in the
* <code>body</code> tag that in pages that use some Layout component.
* One example can be found
* <a
href="http://ars-machina.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ars-machina/example/trunk/src/main/webapp/Index.tml?view=markup"
* >in the Ars Machina Project Example Application</a>.
*
* @author Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
*/
public class JustBody {
}
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Rural Hunter <ru...@gmail.com>.
Thiago,
Good answer and I learnt from it. Is there a good way to handle the
Layout thing?
于 2013/10/30 19:03, Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo 写道:
> Short answer: no. It never was. That's what I still do and recommend
> for almost all cases. It is as dead as it was since the first Tapestry
> 5 alpha was released many years ago, which is not dead.
>
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
Short answer: no. It never was. That's what I still do and recommend for
almost all cases. It is as dead as it was since the first Tapestry 5 alpha
was released many years ago, which is not dead.
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 05:04:56 -0200, Geoff Callender
<ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> * Invisible instrumentation (see
> http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/lang/previewabletemplates).
> * The Remove component (see
> http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/styling/previewablewithstylesheets).
> * The Content component.
>
> But the obstacles have been growing and growing.
>
> * These days a page is usually made from lots of complex components.
> None of these will be shown in the preview.
If you program the component right (basically, returning false in the
beginRender() method, nothing in the body of the component will be
rendered, so you can put anything you want there to make the page or
component previewable.
SomeComponent.java:
...
boolean beginRender() {
...
return false;
}
<div t:type="SomeComponent">
Nothing inside here will be rendered by Tapestry, but will appear
when the template is viewed directly on the browser.
</div>
If Tapestry-provided components don't do that yet, please file a JIRA so
we can fix this.
> * AJAX-busy pages are often made from lots of components that show at
> different times. None of this will be shown in the preview.
The Remove component is useful at this. That's exactly why I created it.
> * Complex components are often made from other complex components. None
> of these will be shown in the preview.
Same as above.
> * Tapestry's own BeanEdit, BeanDisplay, and Grid, all preview terribly.
> If you put in the work to make them preview-able then you might as well
> not use them.
The situation of their previewability is the same as it ever was. Besides
Grid, they were created as scaffolding, as something to speed up
development and probably be replaced by fields later.
> * A field might be replaced at runtime by a PropertyEditor. This will
> not be shown in the preview.
Same as above.
> * I have to keep the Remove-d stylesheet link in the TML file in line
> with the @Import-ed stylesheet in the Java.
Yep. Previewability isn't free.
> * With T5.4, Form labels and fields emit Bootstrap classes at runtime.
> These will not be shown in the preview.
You can add the CSS classes in the template.
> So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the
> techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same
> development environment as me?
I'm not the one who should answer this question. Not my company. :)
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 04:10:26 -0200, Jens Breitenstein
<ma...@j-b-s.de> wrote:
> I believe it strongly depends what you want and use from Tapestry.
>
> For example: The BeanEditor is a great component to display something
> quickly but at the very end I never used it, because you can not (or at
> least I am to stupid to) control exactly the look and feel / positioning
> of all fields to make a real responsive form because it lacks css
> modification accross fields.
T5.3-: BeanEditor adds CSS classes based on the name of the property.
T5.4: BeanEditor adds data-* attributes based on the name of the property.
> As the world and Tapestry moves more and more towards JavaScript it's
> natural you loose your preview capabilities but Tapestry still allows a
> detailed preview of the static positioning and responsive setup without
> a running server, in contrast to JSF / GWT or others.
>
> In short: I like the concept, still.
Thanks, Jens! That's exactly what I was trying to say, but with better
words. :)
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Jens Breitenstein <ma...@j-b-s.de>.
I believe it strongly depends what you want and use from Tapestry.
For example: The BeanEditor is a great component to display something
quickly but at the very end I never used it, because you can not (or at
least I am to stupid to) control exactly the look and feel / positioning
of all fields to make a real responsive form because it lacks css
modification accross fields.
As the world and Tapestry moves more and more towards JavaScript it's
natural you loose your preview capabilities but Tapestry still allows a
detailed preview of the static positioning and responsive setup without
a running server, in contrast to JSF / GWT or others.
In short: I like the concept, still.
Jens
Am 31.10.13 01:20, schrieb Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo:
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 21:51:40 -0200, Lenny Primak
> <lp...@hope.nyc.ny.us> wrote:
>
>> We have scenario #2 with the caveat that designer used their own tool
>> to edit templates and the IDE runs in the background so they can
>> check how the web site looks live.
>
> In the end, with any kind of dynamic page, Tapestry or Wicket or Play
> or PHP or anything else, running the application is the only way of
> the designer be sure the result of their edits is the expected one.
> And I really love the fact that Tapestry templates, even when using
> complex components that generates lots of markup by itself, still look
> like regular, ordinary HTML. Now compare with JSF templates, specially
> non-facelet ones, for example.
>
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 21:51:40 -0200, Lenny Primak <lp...@hope.nyc.ny.us>
wrote:
> We have scenario #2 with the caveat that designer used their own tool to
> edit templates and the IDE runs in the background so they can check how
> the web site looks live.
In the end, with any kind of dynamic page, Tapestry or Wicket or Play or
PHP or anything else, running the application is the only way of the
designer be sure the result of their edits is the expected one. And I
really love the fact that Tapestry templates, even when using complex
components that generates lots of markup by itself, still look like
regular, ordinary HTML. Now compare with JSF templates, specially
non-facelet ones, for example.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Lenny Primak <lp...@hope.nyc.ny.us>.
We have scenario #2 with the caveat that designer used their own tool to edit templates and the IDE runs in the background so they can check how the web site looks live.
> On Oct 30, 2013, at 7:26 PM, Bob Harner <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Previewable templates are a great marketing bullet point, but whether you
> use them depends on your circumstances:
>
> 1) You have no UI designer (i.e., the developers are the designers) --
> there is probably no need for previewable templates.
>
> 2) You have designers who are willing to use some developer tools (IDE,
> build tool, version control) -- there is probably no need for previewable
> templates.
>
> 3) You have a designer and he/she is unwilling to use developer tools: use
> previewable templates.
>
> My projects have been mostly in the first category.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Geoff Callender <
> geoff.callender.jumpstart@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Good helpful responses, thanks, but I'm surprised how broad the range of
>> opinions is!
>>
>> Thiago is passionately in favour of putting in the effort to be
>> preview-able, while others feel that it's not worth the effort. Are there
>> any more opinions out there?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Geoff
>>
>>> On 30/10/2013, at 6:04 PM, Geoff Callender wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm trying so very hard to keep my templates "preview-able" but it's
>> getting oh-so-difficult. Is it time to stop trying and just get my web
>> designer to use the same development environment as me?
>>>
>>> When I say "preview-able template", I mean a template coded in such a
>> way that a web page designer can open it in a web browser or WYSIWYG editor
>> for "preview" and edit. The idea is that it looks close enough to the
>> runtime page to be useful, and easily editable.
>>>
>>> In the past, the techniques that have allowed this include:
>>>
>>> * Invisible instrumentation (see
>> http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/lang/previewabletemplates
>> ).
>>> * The Remove component (see
>> http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/styling/previewablewithstylesheets
>> ).
>>> * The Content component.
>>>
>>> But the obstacles have been growing and growing.
>>>
>>> * These days a page is usually made from lots of complex components.
>> None of these will be shown in the preview.
>>> * AJAX-busy pages are often made from lots of components that show at
>> different times. None of this will be shown in the preview.
>>> * Complex components are often made from other complex components. None
>> of these will be shown in the preview.
>>> * Tapestry's own BeanEdit, BeanDisplay, and Grid, all preview terribly.
>> If you put in the work to make them preview-able then you might as well not
>> use them.
>>> * A field might be replaced at runtime by a PropertyEditor. This will
>> not be shown in the preview.
>>> * I have to keep the Remove-d stylesheet link in the TML file in line
>> with the @Import-ed stylesheet in the Java.
>>> * With T5.4, Form labels and fields emit Bootstrap classes at runtime.
>> These will not be shown in the preview.
>>>
>>> So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the
>> techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same
>> development environment as me?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Geoff
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Bob Harner <bo...@gmail.com>.
Previewable templates are a great marketing bullet point, but whether you
use them depends on your circumstances:
1) You have no UI designer (i.e., the developers are the designers) --
there is probably no need for previewable templates.
2) You have designers who are willing to use some developer tools (IDE,
build tool, version control) -- there is probably no need for previewable
templates.
3) You have a designer and he/she is unwilling to use developer tools: use
previewable templates.
My projects have been mostly in the first category.
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Geoff Callender <
geoff.callender.jumpstart@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good helpful responses, thanks, but I'm surprised how broad the range of
> opinions is!
>
> Thiago is passionately in favour of putting in the effort to be
> preview-able, while others feel that it's not worth the effort. Are there
> any more opinions out there?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Geoff
>
> On 30/10/2013, at 6:04 PM, Geoff Callender wrote:
>
> > I'm trying so very hard to keep my templates "preview-able" but it's
> getting oh-so-difficult. Is it time to stop trying and just get my web
> designer to use the same development environment as me?
> >
> > When I say "preview-able template", I mean a template coded in such a
> way that a web page designer can open it in a web browser or WYSIWYG editor
> for "preview" and edit. The idea is that it looks close enough to the
> runtime page to be useful, and easily editable.
> >
> > In the past, the techniques that have allowed this include:
> >
> > * Invisible instrumentation (see
> http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/lang/previewabletemplates
> ).
> > * The Remove component (see
> http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/styling/previewablewithstylesheets
> ).
> > * The Content component.
> >
> > But the obstacles have been growing and growing.
> >
> > * These days a page is usually made from lots of complex components.
> None of these will be shown in the preview.
> > * AJAX-busy pages are often made from lots of components that show at
> different times. None of this will be shown in the preview.
> > * Complex components are often made from other complex components. None
> of these will be shown in the preview.
> > * Tapestry's own BeanEdit, BeanDisplay, and Grid, all preview terribly.
> If you put in the work to make them preview-able then you might as well not
> use them.
> > * A field might be replaced at runtime by a PropertyEditor. This will
> not be shown in the preview.
> > * I have to keep the Remove-d stylesheet link in the TML file in line
> with the @Import-ed stylesheet in the Java.
> > * With T5.4, Form labels and fields emit Bootstrap classes at runtime.
> These will not be shown in the preview.
> >
> > So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the
> techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same
> development environment as me?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Geoff
> >
>
>
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>
>
Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:55:30 -0200, Geoff Callender
<ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good helpful responses, thanks, but I'm surprised how broad the range of
> opinions is!
Yay for diversity! :)
> Thiago is passionately in favour of putting in the effort to be
> preview-able, while others feel that it's not worth the effort.
I wouldn't say I'm passionately in favor: I was just saying how you could
do stuff. I do like previewability and use it most of the time. I don't
use it, for example, when there's an if I don't want to generate markup
for it. I think using invisible instrumentation or not is a case-by-case
choice of balancing pros and cons.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 21:18:06 -0200, Lenny Primak <lp...@hope.nyc.ny.us>
wrote:
> I just feel that's not a priority for most of the tapestry team (Thiago
> excluded). I hope I am wrong.
> If this is the case though, this functionality will be eroded to
> non-existent over time.
Is it eroding? I really can't see any drop of previewability in Tapestry
itself through all the history of its fifth version. I don't think the
introduction of BeanEditor, for example, lowered the previewability of
Tapestry: you can still use <xxx t:type="yyy"> as much as before. You can
still just do a <xxx t:id="yyy"> and use @Component to define what the
component is and its parameters. You just have a component (and other too,
BeanEditor is just an example) that generates more markup than its
declaration. If you want full previewability, don't use this kind of
component. If you want some previewability, if BeanEditor itself doesn't
drop its body, please file a JIRA so I or other committer can fix that.
Regarding AJAX, Tapestry or not, at least at a first glance, I can see how
it could be previewable.
Another non-Tapestry specific hurdle is dynamic markup generation in
general.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Lenny Primak <lp...@hope.nyc.ny.us>.
Just so there is no misunderstandings, I personally love previewable templates. I would love to keep them.
That's one of the best parts of tapestry and a great differentiating factor.
I just feel that's not a priority for most of the tapestry team (Thiago excluded). I hope I am wrong.
If this is the case though, this functionality will be eroded to non-existent over time.
> On Oct 30, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Geoff Callender <ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good helpful responses, thanks, but I'm surprised how broad the range of opinions is!
>
> Thiago is passionately in favour of putting in the effort to be preview-able, while others feel that it's not worth the effort. Are there any more opinions out there?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Geoff
>
>> On 30/10/2013, at 6:04 PM, Geoff Callender wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying so very hard to keep my templates "preview-able" but it's getting oh-so-difficult. Is it time to stop trying and just get my web designer to use the same development environment as me?
>>
>> When I say "preview-able template", I mean a template coded in such a way that a web page designer can open it in a web browser or WYSIWYG editor for "preview" and edit. The idea is that it looks close enough to the runtime page to be useful, and easily editable.
>>
>> In the past, the techniques that have allowed this include:
>>
>> * Invisible instrumentation (see http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/lang/previewabletemplates).
>> * The Remove component (see http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/styling/previewablewithstylesheets).
>> * The Content component.
>>
>> But the obstacles have been growing and growing.
>>
>> * These days a page is usually made from lots of complex components. None of these will be shown in the preview.
>> * AJAX-busy pages are often made from lots of components that show at different times. None of this will be shown in the preview.
>> * Complex components are often made from other complex components. None of these will be shown in the preview.
>> * Tapestry's own BeanEdit, BeanDisplay, and Grid, all preview terribly. If you put in the work to make them preview-able then you might as well not use them.
>> * A field might be replaced at runtime by a PropertyEditor. This will not be shown in the preview.
>> * I have to keep the Remove-d stylesheet link in the TML file in line with the @Import-ed stylesheet in the Java.
>> * With T5.4, Form labels and fields emit Bootstrap classes at runtime. These will not be shown in the preview.
>>
>> So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same development environment as me?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Geoff
>
>
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Geoff Callender <ge...@gmail.com>.
Good helpful responses, thanks, but I'm surprised how broad the range of opinions is!
Thiago is passionately in favour of putting in the effort to be preview-able, while others feel that it's not worth the effort. Are there any more opinions out there?
Cheers,
Geoff
On 30/10/2013, at 6:04 PM, Geoff Callender wrote:
> I'm trying so very hard to keep my templates "preview-able" but it's getting oh-so-difficult. Is it time to stop trying and just get my web designer to use the same development environment as me?
>
> When I say "preview-able template", I mean a template coded in such a way that a web page designer can open it in a web browser or WYSIWYG editor for "preview" and edit. The idea is that it looks close enough to the runtime page to be useful, and easily editable.
>
> In the past, the techniques that have allowed this include:
>
> * Invisible instrumentation (see http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/lang/previewabletemplates).
> * The Remove component (see http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/styling/previewablewithstylesheets).
> * The Content component.
>
> But the obstacles have been growing and growing.
>
> * These days a page is usually made from lots of complex components. None of these will be shown in the preview.
> * AJAX-busy pages are often made from lots of components that show at different times. None of this will be shown in the preview.
> * Complex components are often made from other complex components. None of these will be shown in the preview.
> * Tapestry's own BeanEdit, BeanDisplay, and Grid, all preview terribly. If you put in the work to make them preview-able then you might as well not use them.
> * A field might be replaced at runtime by a PropertyEditor. This will not be shown in the preview.
> * I have to keep the Remove-d stylesheet link in the TML file in line with the @Import-ed stylesheet in the Java.
> * With T5.4, Form labels and fields emit Bootstrap classes at runtime. These will not be shown in the preview.
>
> So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same development environment as me?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Geoff
>
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Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Kalle Korhonen <ka...@gmail.com>.
For the past five years, my designers have been perfectly happy running
"mvn jetty:run" against an embedded database, then editing the templates on
the fly without the faintest idea of the underlying machinery. To this day,
they only have superficial knowledge of the "backend", or god forbid, Java.
I think it's high time for your web designer to get on with the program.
Kalle
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Geoff Callender <
geoff.callender.jumpstart@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying so very hard to keep my templates "preview-able" but it's
> getting oh-so-difficult. Is it time to stop trying and just get my web
> designer to use the same development environment as me?
>
> When I say "preview-able template", I mean a template coded in such a way
> that a web page designer can open it in a web browser or WYSIWYG editor for
> "preview" and edit. The idea is that it looks close enough to the runtime
> page to be useful, and easily editable.
>
> In the past, the techniques that have allowed this include:
>
> * Invisible instrumentation (see
> http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/lang/previewabletemplates
> ).
> * The Remove component (see
> http://jumpstart.doublenegative.com.au/jumpstart/examples/styling/previewablewithstylesheets
> ).
> * The Content component.
>
> But the obstacles have been growing and growing.
>
> * These days a page is usually made from lots of complex components. None
> of these will be shown in the preview.
> * AJAX-busy pages are often made from lots of components that show at
> different times. None of this will be shown in the preview.
> * Complex components are often made from other complex components. None of
> these will be shown in the preview.
> * Tapestry's own BeanEdit, BeanDisplay, and Grid, all preview terribly. If
> you put in the work to make them preview-able then you might as well not
> use them.
> * A field might be replaced at runtime by a PropertyEditor. This will not
> be shown in the preview.
> * I have to keep the Remove-d stylesheet link in the TML file in line with
> the @Import-ed stylesheet in the Java.
> * With T5.4, Form labels and fields emit Bootstrap classes at runtime.
> These will not be shown in the preview.
>
> So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the
> techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same
> development environment as me?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Geoff
>
>
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>
Re: [5.4] Is preview-able TML dead?
Posted by Rural Hunter <ru...@gmail.com>.
于 2013/10/30 15:04, Geoff Callender 写道:
> So, is it time to accept that preview-able TML is dead, drop the techniques above, and teach my web page designer to run the same development environment as me?
That's what we have been doing for quite a long time.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Geoff
>
>
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