Is graduation subject to veto?

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Roy T. Fielding wrote:

> Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.

Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation.  Yes, it is a policy
decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.

	--- Noel


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Re: Is graduation subject to veto?

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>]

vetos must be justified... An unjustified veto is
worthless.


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Re: Is graduation subject to veto?

[Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>]

Jim Jagielski wrote:
> 
> On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> 
>> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>>
>>> Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
>>
>> Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
>> recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation.  Yes, it is a policy
>> decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
>> Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
> 
> I tend to agree. If someone feels strongly enough to veto a
> graduation, we should address it. As Noel implied, we
> could consider graduation as a sort of major league code
> patch :)

If you want to object any code on a technical basis, feel free.

I, however, would rather a graduation be viewed as akin to a release. 
What I am most afraid of is for somebody to use a veto as a tool to 
squelch what they view as a "competing" project.

Concrete examples: there was once some (unfounded) concern that I would 
veto and or lobby against the establishment of the Maven project.  More 
to the point: there have been attempts within the general Avalon 
community to squash another groups efforts.

Look at how we approve projects within the board.  We generally look for 
the existance of a healthy community firmly anchored by a code base, and 
then we approve it by a majority vote.  Votes are rarely close: we 
either overwhelmingly approve it, otherwise we generally conclude that 
perhaps this month is not quite the right time to move forward with this 
particular resolution.  Often this is because one of us has some 
actionable concerns, and others on the board echo and respect those 
concerns.  We rarely disapprove outright - preferring to leave the door 
open.

It appears that this the spirit in which Roy expressed his -1.  Since 
Roy's comments appear thoughtful, constructive, and actionable, I will 
echo his -1 for the moment.

- Sam Ruby








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Re: Is graduation subject to veto?

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>]

On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
>> Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
>
> Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
> recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation.  Yes, it is a policy
> decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
> Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
>

I tend to agree. If someone feels strongly enough to veto a
graduation, we should address it. As Noel implied, we
could consider graduation as a sort of major league code
patch :)


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Re: Is graduation subject to veto?

[Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> 
> 
>>Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
> 
> 
> Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
> recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation.  Yes, it is a policy
> decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
> Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
> 

There are some graduation criteria, such as licensing or IP issues, that 
are clearly objective and for those a veto option would be appropriate. 
I would trust, though, that we would never obtain concensus should any 
such issue exist.

Other criteria, for example the diversity of the community, are more 
subjective. Simple consensus seems more appropriate.

Citing the recent Derby discussion, Roy voted against with clear issues 
that have been resolved; however, the issue with community is far muddier.

--
Jeremy

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Re: Is graduation subject to veto?

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
> Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.

I'd rather then have an escalation onto a higher bar (sush as a 2/3) or
some deferal to board/members at the next general assembly. A petition (or
some backed veto) could be the trigger for this (which would set the bar
for escalation lowish) but should not an instrument by itself.

Dw

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Re: Is graduation subject to veto?

[Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>]

At 04:44 AM 3/30/2005, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
> > Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
>
>Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
>recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation.  Yes, it is a policy
>decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
>Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.

I always thought it was a veto type decision. However, since you brought up 
the issue, a 2/3 or even 3/4 majority seem appropriate me.


         --- Noel


-- 
Ceki Gülcü

   The complete log4j manual: http://www.qos.ch/log4j/



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