Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>]

on 5/1/02 11:58 PM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:

> Which basically boils down to "let's just invent our own little language
> and try to get enough people bragging about it"

It isn't a little language... It is Velocity templates using a well
known/used API (DOM4J).

> Come on, this isn't serious anymore. Sorry to say, but in the real
> world, there are more XSLT than dvsl users.

Just like there are more JSP users than Velocity users.

Still doesn't mean that JSP is better than Velocity.

> Wasn't this entire thing
> about community building? So what do we really want: using technology we
> invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to
> common standards?

Using technology that is well supported, developed by a community of people
who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests (instead, motived
by real world requirements).

Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it until you try it.

-jon


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

["Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

>on 5/1/02 11:58 PM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
>
>>Which basically boils down to "let's just invent our own little language
>>and try to get enough people bragging about it"
>>
>
>It isn't a little language... It is Velocity templates using a well
>known/used API (DOM4J).
>
>>Come on, this isn't serious anymore. Sorry to say, but in the real
>>world, there are more XSLT than dvsl users.
>>
>
>Just like there are more JSP users than Velocity users.
>
>Still doesn't mean that JSP is better than Velocity.
>
XSL is hardly comparable to JSP.  

>
>>Wasn't this entire thing
>>about community building? So what do we really want: using technology we
>>invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to
>>common standards?
>>
>
>Using technology that is well supported, developed by a community of people
>who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests (instead, motived
>by real world requirements).
>
>Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it until you try it.
>
Now he's done it (steven).  XSL suites my needs fine.  I've no reason to 
learn one that is the Apache version of proprietary.  When I have a 
specific need for it other than "gee lets make so and so use DVSL", I'll 
use it.  This isn't such a case.  Standards don't have to be the BEST 
solution or the ONLY solution but I tend to like using things that don't 
require me to learn all of your pet projects Jon.  I'd end up having no 
time but to join a "Cult of Jon's Pet projects" and follow you around 
like the next Richard Stallman wondering "but what did it mean" when you 
belch.

XSL is not like JSP or EJB there is nothing horribly wrong with it.  

I think its reasonable for anything that you say "QUICK use this" to at 
least attempt to support standards.

-Andy

>
>-jon
>
>
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>




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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 5/1/02 11:58 PM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Which basically boils down to "let's just invent our own little language
>>and try to get enough people bragging about it"
> 
> 
> It isn't a little language... It is Velocity templates using a well
> known/used API (DOM4J).

Language != technology.

DOM4J is technology.  THe DVSL markup is language.  It just so happens
that you use DOM4J in the parts where you change things--but DVSL is
where you mark what you change and when.



> Just like there are more JSP users than Velocity users.
> 
> Still doesn't mean that JSP is better than Velocity.

And it doesn't mean that Velocity is better than JSP.  I personally am
not a JSP fan, but different tools for different fools.  Quit comparing
apples and oranges.  Let's get back to your thought provoking posts.

> 
> 
> Using technology that is well supported, developed by a community of people
> who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests (instead, motived
> by real world requirements).
> 
> Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it until you try it.
> 

I haven't had a need to.  If I can do everything I need outside of DVSL,
using standard technologies that can be used in other settings, what
incentive do I have?  Besides Xalan is an Apache project, as is Xerces.
We use them.  So how is that *not* using a technology that is *well*
supported.

As to your assertation that commercial or academic interests are not
valid motivations, you forget that they *are* real world requirements.
In fact I would assert that development efforts not originated in some
way by commercial or academic needs are efforts that are done for the
sake of doing them.

We have to eat.  I eat because I program.  I use Apache products because
they are better than many commercial products for the same purpose, and
because I can convince my managers that we can build our solutions with
them.

But I degress...


-- 

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
                 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: In defense of DVSL and XSLT

[Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>]

James Taylor <jt...@4lane.com> writes:

> I personally have found uses for both. You may notice that for print
> documentation in maven we are using XSLT rather than DVSL. At that point
> all the generated documents and user documents are in the same
> intermediate format and no further access to java objects is necessary.
> However when generating the intermediate documents (or generating code
> and build files for maven itself) DVSL is much easier.

Exactly.  Use the right tool for the job.

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In defense of DVSL and XSLT

[James Taylor <jt...@4lane.com>]

> Granted: I use XSLT and am able to live with it. Nothing to be ashamed
> of, I guess. I've briefly looked into DVSL when Maven was gathering
> momentum, and it was not the kind of quantum-leap technology that would
> change my judgement on XSLT.

As a user and supporter of both, I just want to point out that DVSL and
XSLT have different strengths. DVSL is declarative like XSLT, but it
generates text rather than a node graph. Therefore DVSL lacks some of
the cool features of XSLT like xsl:attribute-set, xsl:copy, and others.

However DVSL is much better at accessing beans. It's just velocity, so
you push whatever you want onto the context and go. Much easier than
dealing with extension functions. 

I personally have found uses for both. You may notice that for print
documentation in maven we are using XSLT rather than DVSL. At that point
all the generated documents and user documents are in the same
intermediate format and no further access to java objects is necessary.
However when generating the intermediate documents (or generating code
and build files for maven itself) DVSL is much easier.

-- jt



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RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You makethedecision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

Jon wrote:

> on 5/2/02 12:22 AM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
>
> > My point is that projects are being attacked here *solely*
> because they
> > prefer XSLT instead of DVSL.
>
> Where the heck did you see someone being 'attacked'? Geez.
> People. You need
> to quit reading into someone saying "THEY" don't like XSLT
> vs. whatever else
> you have made up in your mind.

OK, 'not being accepted' was perhaps the better wording.

> > I'm perfectly happy when people don't like
> > XSLT and scratch their own itches, but I do find it quite
> > counterproductive when projects are considered to be less
> 'cool' when
> > they prefer to use standards above home-brown solutions.
> I'm afraid I
> > really don't want to know your opinion on Xalan and Cocoon, then :-)
>
> First off, Velocity isn't any more home brewed than JSP. Just
> because it
> came from 'Sun' doesn't mean it is a standard.

Right on. XSLT is a standard and it has a lively community. 600+
messages in xsl-list@lists.mulberrytech.com in 10 days. But you son't
seem to like the language, so I'll leave it to that.

> > Oh well, perhaps this might become more productive if you start to
> > explain me what I need to do to create a Forrest plugin for Maven.
>
> Clearly you aren't an idiot. I'm sure you can figure it out
> on your own.

I'll take that as a compliment, and hopefully I find time to figure it
out on my own.

Hehe, I'm glad I read http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html prior to
jumping in. "Talking about what an asshole he is (or defending him) does
nothing more than waste energy." I'll focus that energy in trying to
handle the Forrest part of an eventual Maven/Centipede/Gump
consolidation, if that happens.

Cheers,

</Steven>


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>]

on 5/2/02 12:22 AM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:

> My point is that projects are being attacked here *solely* because they
> prefer XSLT instead of DVSL.

Where the heck did you see someone being 'attacked'? Geez. People. You need
to quit reading into someone saying "THEY" don't like XSLT vs. whatever else
you have made up in your mind.

> I'm perfectly happy when people don't like
> XSLT and scratch their own itches, but I do find it quite
> counterproductive when projects are considered to be less 'cool' when
> they prefer to use standards above home-brown solutions. I'm afraid I
> really don't want to know your opinion on Xalan and Cocoon, then :-)

First off, Velocity isn't any more home brewed than JSP. Just because it
came from 'Sun' doesn't mean it is a standard.

Reality is that JSP was created by someone who never created a web app in
his life.

> Oh well, perhaps this might become more productive if you start to
> explain me what I need to do to create a Forrest plugin for Maven.

Clearly you aren't an idiot. I'm sure you can figure it out on your own.

-jon


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RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

Jon wrote:

> > Wasn't this entire thing
> > about community building? So what do we really want: using
> technology we
> > invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to
> > common standards?
>
> Using technology that is well supported, developed by a
> community of people
> who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests
> (instead, motived
> by real world requirements).
>
> Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it
> until you try it.

Granted: I use XSLT and am able to live with it. Nothing to be ashamed
of, I guess. I've briefly looked into DVSL when Maven was gathering
momentum, and it was not the kind of quantum-leap technology that would
change my judgement on XSLT.

My point is that projects are being attacked here *solely* because they
prefer XSLT instead of DVSL. I'm perfectly happy when people don't like
XSLT and scratch their own itches, but I do find it quite
counterproductive when projects are considered to be less 'cool' when
they prefer to use standards above home-brown solutions. I'm afraid I
really don't want to know your opinion on Xalan and Cocoon, then :-)

You know what? Java isn't open source, neither, and lots of academic
work goes into that commercial language, too :-)

Oh well, perhaps this might become more productive if you start to
explain me what I need to do to create a Forrest plugin for Maven.

</Steven>


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