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Posted to users@subversion.apache.org by Jay Paulson <jp...@sedl.org> on 2005/08/25 18:46:45 UTC
Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Hello all-
I'm doing some research for many things and from reading about
subversion it might do the trick, but I still have questions.
The company I currently work for has many different projects, however
they are not coding projects. The projects are mainly research ones
with many documents (Word, Excell, PDF docs etc) that are used with
this research (mainly documents things about the research but usually
go through many versions before a final version is released).
What is needed is some sort of version control system that team members
can use to share files, collaborate ideas, and basically have a project
tracker kind of like SourceForge.net.
My question is can Subversion handle something like this with mainly
different kind of documents that aren't programs etc? Is there a good
web interface that promotes users to collaborate? I would prefer if
the web interface was written in PHP but if there are good ones written
in something else I'd like to see them.
Thanks for any suggestions!
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Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Posted by Toby Johnson <to...@etjohnson.us>.
Jay Paulson wrote:
> The company I currently work for has many different projects, however
> they are not coding projects. The projects are mainly research ones
> with many documents (Word, Excell, PDF docs etc) that are used with
> this research (mainly documents things about the research but usually
> go through many versions before a final version is released).
Subversion can handle any type of file. It is most commonly used with
source files and other line-based files but it handles "binary" files
such as Office docs just fine. For these office files, you will most
likely be interested in using the locking features introduced in version
1.2, since these files are considered "unmergeable", that is, two people
can't generally merge independent changes back to a single
version-controlled document.
However, the TortoiseSVN project (http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/), which
makes an excellent Windows Explorer plugin for Subversion, also now has
scripts which allow merging of Word documents, although I've never
actually used them. I don't believe there are any good, web-based tools
which allow the full range of Subversion actions -- checkout, modify,
etc. -- so you'd want something like TortoiseSVN for everyday actions
anyway.
> What is needed is some sort of version control system that team
> members can use to share files, collaborate ideas, and basically have
> a project tracker kind of like SourceForge.net.
Subversion is only the version-control part of this; it has no project
tracking or collaboration tools. However, Trac
(http://www.edgewall.com/trac/) uses Subversion for its version control
and also incorporates all these features. It's written in Python.
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Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Posted by David Anderson <da...@calixo.net>.
Jay Paulson wrote:
> My question is can Subversion handle something like this with mainly
> different kind of documents that aren't programs etc? Is there a good
> web interface that promotes users to collaborate? I would prefer if the
> web interface was written in PHP but if there are good ones written in
> something else I'd like to see them.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions!
In my humble experience, Subversion works very well with all kinds of
files, not just source code for programs. For example, check out the
SubWiki project, a wiki engine which uses Subversion as a storage
backend for the pages. There have been quite a few successful reports
of people using it to store various word documents as well, all very
happy families and happy endings.
Now, as to what kind of setup could encourage nonprogrammer users to use
version control and collaborative development, I can suggest basically
two things:
Use mod_dav_svn (repository accessible via http:// or https://) and
activate DAV auto-versionning (new in svn 1.2). This will allow your
users to mount the repository as a WebDAV remote drive and use it as if
it were a normal file share. Microsoft Office programs can also
directly open files by URL if they are on a subversion DAV share.
Backstage, Subversion will automagically commit when the users write to
the webdrive (albeit with a strange, nondescript commit message). This
makes the version control completely transparent if people don't want to
go through the trouble of learning new tools. The cons are that commits
don't necessarily describe a single logical change, and that commit
messages become essentially useless.
If your users are not reticent to learning a new (very easy to use!)
tool and a few version control paradigms (commit one logical change at a
time, document your changes in the logs, etc.), then TortoiseSVN on
windows (I'm assuming windows because of the file formats you mention)
integrates beautifully (*really*) with the operating system and offers
Subversion client functionality. There, the version control wouldn't be
transparent, but would be so well integrated and seamless that, after
the initial day or so of learning and teething, it would "just work".
Next, you were talking about a web interface to promote user
collaboration. The very best I can think of in this case is Trac
(http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/ iirc).
It is written in python, but integrates a wiki, a timeline (to view
changesets, diffs, revision info, navigate through time in the
repository), a task/milestone management system and a bug/issue tracking
system. In the current development version (which is stable enough to
use on a production system -- I do it), each of these features is a
plugin, so you can disable eg. the issue tracker if you'd rather not
confuse users about that.
That said, I can see how all of these features could be used for
non-programmer users: the wiki to coordinate development, the timeline
to navigate, the milestone system to manage releases and objectives, and
the issue tracker as a notepad of "stuff to do/correct". Perhaps just
modify the templates slightly to remove references to programmer terms
and replace/remove them in favour of something a little less programmer
oriented. That, all in all, shouldn't take long: Trac is well designed,
the template language (ClearSilver) is well documented and easy to get
to grips with.
As for such systems using PHP, I *do* know of some, but unless you
really insist, I'm not going to tell you about them. Don't take this
badly, I'm simply trying to prod you in the best direction: Trac's motto
is "to help developers (ie. users) whilst keeping as much out of the way
as possible", and I find that they have achieved this (very desirable)
objective. Other groupware management systems do exist, are written in
PHP, but are also the equivalent, in your case, of a tactical
thermonuclear warhead to swat a rather asmathic and sluggish baby fly.
Honestly, try Trac (unfortunately their test site, hosted by a friend of
mine, is down until in about 24 hours time, so just be patient). It is
not in your language of choice, but I believe the benefits reaped from
using it far outweigh the implementation considerations in this case.
It will make you very happy if the users are receptive to it's power and
elegance.
There. Just my 0.2€, delivered shrink wrapped in a three page long ode
to the joys of Subversion and Trac used properly :-). Hope that helped.
- Dave.
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Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
Carl Baldwin <cn...@fc.hp.com> writes:
> I meant to take this to another level where subversion called an
> external script if the file matches a given mime-type.
I believe 'svn merge' takes the --diff3-cmd option for this purpose.
It's unfortunate, from a user interface point of view, that the option
retains the same name it uses with 'svn diff', but still it should
have the effect you want. (Or if it doesn't, please let us know!)
-Karl
--
www.collab.net <> CollabNet | Distributed Development On Demand
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 05:31:13PM -0700, Erik Anderson wrote:
> > Isn't this how conflict-resolution is handled in Subversion where simple
> > text merges are simply not available? The files are flagged as requiring
> > manual merge and the three versions of the file are available for
> > comparison...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carl Baldwin [mailto:cnb@fc.hp.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 5:29 PM
> > To: Vincent Starre
> > Cc: Jay Paulson; users@subversion.tigris.org
> > Subject: Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I just had a thought.
> >
> > I wonder if subversion could be made to defer the merging operation on
> > files with certain mime-types. This way, subversion would merely detect
> > the need to merge a file but defer the actual work to a script or
> > something. In the best case, it might be possible to wrap tools that
> > would attempt (hopefully successfully) to merge files like MS office
> > documents. If nothing else, the script could tell the user that a merge
> > needs to be done and mark the working copy dirty.
> >
> > I actually got this idea from git. It has this sort of flexibility.
> > Actually, it will make a great back-end for this sort of use when it
> > gets a webdav interface (plus maybe autoversioning) and a neat windows
> > client. For now, though, its not an option.
> >
> > Carl
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 07:01:18PM -0400, Vincent Starre wrote:
> > > I would not recommend subversion for "text"-like things which are not
> > > bare text. While svn certainly /can/ do things like this, it would treat
> >
> > > all files as binary, so a lot (though certainly not all) of the
> > > usefulness would be gone.
> > > Word[for example] is a common enough format that I'm sure there are some
> >
> > > version control systems which are format-aware of Word[for example]
> > files.
> > > Though I can't say with certainty, having not actually used it,
> > > "SharePoint" comes to mind.
> > >
> > > Jay Paulson wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hello all-
> > > >
> > > >I'm doing some research for many things and from reading about
> > > >subversion it might do the trick, but I still have questions.
> > > >
> > > >The company I currently work for has many different projects, however
> > > >they are not coding projects. The projects are mainly research ones
> > > >with many documents (Word, Excell, PDF docs etc) that are used with
> > > >this research (mainly documents things about the research but usually
> > > >go through many versions before a final version is released).
> > > >
> > > >What is needed is some sort of version control system that team
> > > >members can use to share files, collaborate ideas, and basically have
> > > >a project tracker kind of like SourceForge.net.
> > > >
> > > >My question is can Subversion handle something like this with mainly
> > > >different kind of documents that aren't programs etc? Is there a good
> > > >web interface that promotes users to collaborate? I would prefer if
> > > >the web interface was written in PHP but if there are good ones
> > > >written in something else I'd like to see them.
> > > >
> > > >Thanks for any suggestions!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
> > > >For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
> > >
> >
> > --
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > Carl Baldwin Systems VLSI Laboratory
> > Hewlett Packard Company
> > MS 88 work: 970 898-1523
> > 3404 E. Harmony Rd. work: Carl.N.Baldwin@hp.com
> > Fort Collins, CO 80525 home: Carl@ecBaldwin.net
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >
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>
>
>
> --
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> Carl Baldwin Systems VLSI Laboratory
> Hewlett Packard Company
> MS 88 work: 970 898-1523
> 3404 E. Harmony Rd. work: Carl.N.Baldwin@hp.com
> Fort Collins, CO 80525 home: Carl@ecBaldwin.net
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
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Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Posted by Carl Baldwin <cn...@fc.hp.com>.
I meant to take this to another level where subversion called an
external script if the file matches a given mime-type.
On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 05:31:13PM -0700, Erik Anderson wrote:
> Isn't this how conflict-resolution is handled in Subversion where simple
> text merges are simply not available? The files are flagged as requiring
> manual merge and the three versions of the file are available for
> comparison...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Baldwin [mailto:cnb@fc.hp.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 5:29 PM
> To: Vincent Starre
> Cc: Jay Paulson; users@subversion.tigris.org
> Subject: Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
>
> Hello,
>
> I just had a thought.
>
> I wonder if subversion could be made to defer the merging operation on
> files with certain mime-types. This way, subversion would merely detect
> the need to merge a file but defer the actual work to a script or
> something. In the best case, it might be possible to wrap tools that
> would attempt (hopefully successfully) to merge files like MS office
> documents. If nothing else, the script could tell the user that a merge
> needs to be done and mark the working copy dirty.
>
> I actually got this idea from git. It has this sort of flexibility.
> Actually, it will make a great back-end for this sort of use when it
> gets a webdav interface (plus maybe autoversioning) and a neat windows
> client. For now, though, its not an option.
>
> Carl
>
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 07:01:18PM -0400, Vincent Starre wrote:
> > I would not recommend subversion for "text"-like things which are not
> > bare text. While svn certainly /can/ do things like this, it would treat
>
> > all files as binary, so a lot (though certainly not all) of the
> > usefulness would be gone.
> > Word[for example] is a common enough format that I'm sure there are some
>
> > version control systems which are format-aware of Word[for example]
> files.
> > Though I can't say with certainty, having not actually used it,
> > "SharePoint" comes to mind.
> >
> > Jay Paulson wrote:
> >
> > >Hello all-
> > >
> > >I'm doing some research for many things and from reading about
> > >subversion it might do the trick, but I still have questions.
> > >
> > >The company I currently work for has many different projects, however
> > >they are not coding projects. The projects are mainly research ones
> > >with many documents (Word, Excell, PDF docs etc) that are used with
> > >this research (mainly documents things about the research but usually
> > >go through many versions before a final version is released).
> > >
> > >What is needed is some sort of version control system that team
> > >members can use to share files, collaborate ideas, and basically have
> > >a project tracker kind of like SourceForge.net.
> > >
> > >My question is can Subversion handle something like this with mainly
> > >different kind of documents that aren't programs etc? Is there a good
> > >web interface that promotes users to collaborate? I would prefer if
> > >the web interface was written in PHP but if there are good ones
> > >written in something else I'd like to see them.
> > >
> > >Thanks for any suggestions!
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
> > >For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
> >
>
> --
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Carl Baldwin Systems VLSI Laboratory
> Hewlett Packard Company
> MS 88 work: 970 898-1523
> 3404 E. Harmony Rd. work: Carl.N.Baldwin@hp.com
> Fort Collins, CO 80525 home: Carl@ecBaldwin.net
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
--
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Carl Baldwin Systems VLSI Laboratory
Hewlett Packard Company
MS 88 work: 970 898-1523
3404 E. Harmony Rd. work: Carl.N.Baldwin@hp.com
Fort Collins, CO 80525 home: Carl@ecBaldwin.net
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Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Posted by Vincent Starre <vs...@comcast.net>.
You may be able to due such a thing by pointing the diff program to a
wrapper which will determine
the type of file and act accordingly. I dont know what kind of output
svn requires, though.
(*this is all a wild guess :) )
Carl Baldwin wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I just had a thought.
>
>I wonder if subversion could be made to defer the merging operation on
>files with certain mime-types. This way, subversion would merely detect
>the need to merge a file but defer the actual work to a script or
>something. In the best case, it might be possible to wrap tools that
>would attempt (hopefully successfully) to merge files like MS office
>documents. If nothing else, the script could tell the user that a merge
>needs to be done and mark the working copy dirty.
>
>I actually got this idea from git. It has this sort of flexibility.
>Actually, it will make a great back-end for this sort of use when it
>gets a webdav interface (plus maybe autoversioning) and a neat windows
>client. For now, though, its not an option.
>
>Carl
>
>On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 07:01:18PM -0400, Vincent Starre wrote:
>
>
>>I would not recommend subversion for "text"-like things which are not
>>bare text. While svn certainly /can/ do things like this, it would treat
>>all files as binary, so a lot (though certainly not all) of the
>>usefulness would be gone.
>>Word[for example] is a common enough format that I'm sure there are some
>>version control systems which are format-aware of Word[for example] files.
>>Though I can't say with certainty, having not actually used it,
>>"SharePoint" comes to mind.
>>
>>Jay Paulson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello all-
>>>
>>>I'm doing some research for many things and from reading about
>>>subversion it might do the trick, but I still have questions.
>>>
>>>The company I currently work for has many different projects, however
>>>they are not coding projects. The projects are mainly research ones
>>>with many documents (Word, Excell, PDF docs etc) that are used with
>>>this research (mainly documents things about the research but usually
>>>go through many versions before a final version is released).
>>>
>>>What is needed is some sort of version control system that team
>>>members can use to share files, collaborate ideas, and basically have
>>>a project tracker kind of like SourceForge.net.
>>>
>>>My question is can Subversion handle something like this with mainly
>>>different kind of documents that aren't programs etc? Is there a good
>>>web interface that promotes users to collaborate? I would prefer if
>>>the web interface was written in PHP but if there are good ones
>>>written in something else I'd like to see them.
>>>
>>>Thanks for any suggestions!
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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RE: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Posted by Erik Anderson <er...@teamworkgroup.com>.
Isn't this how conflict-resolution is handled in Subversion where simple
text merges are simply not available? The files are flagged as requiring
manual merge and the three versions of the file are available for
comparison...
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Baldwin [mailto:cnb@fc.hp.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 5:29 PM
To: Vincent Starre
Cc: Jay Paulson; users@subversion.tigris.org
Subject: Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Hello,
I just had a thought.
I wonder if subversion could be made to defer the merging operation on
files with certain mime-types. This way, subversion would merely detect
the need to merge a file but defer the actual work to a script or
something. In the best case, it might be possible to wrap tools that
would attempt (hopefully successfully) to merge files like MS office
documents. If nothing else, the script could tell the user that a merge
needs to be done and mark the working copy dirty.
I actually got this idea from git. It has this sort of flexibility.
Actually, it will make a great back-end for this sort of use when it
gets a webdav interface (plus maybe autoversioning) and a neat windows
client. For now, though, its not an option.
Carl
On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 07:01:18PM -0400, Vincent Starre wrote:
> I would not recommend subversion for "text"-like things which are not
> bare text. While svn certainly /can/ do things like this, it would treat
> all files as binary, so a lot (though certainly not all) of the
> usefulness would be gone.
> Word[for example] is a common enough format that I'm sure there are some
> version control systems which are format-aware of Word[for example]
files.
> Though I can't say with certainty, having not actually used it,
> "SharePoint" comes to mind.
>
> Jay Paulson wrote:
>
> >Hello all-
> >
> >I'm doing some research for many things and from reading about
> >subversion it might do the trick, but I still have questions.
> >
> >The company I currently work for has many different projects, however
> >they are not coding projects. The projects are mainly research ones
> >with many documents (Word, Excell, PDF docs etc) that are used with
> >this research (mainly documents things about the research but usually
> >go through many versions before a final version is released).
> >
> >What is needed is some sort of version control system that team
> >members can use to share files, collaborate ideas, and basically have
> >a project tracker kind of like SourceForge.net.
> >
> >My question is can Subversion handle something like this with mainly
> >different kind of documents that aren't programs etc? Is there a good
> >web interface that promotes users to collaborate? I would prefer if
> >the web interface was written in PHP but if there are good ones
> >written in something else I'd like to see them.
> >
> >Thanks for any suggestions!
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@subversion.tigris.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@subversion.tigris.org
>
--
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Carl Baldwin Systems VLSI Laboratory
Hewlett Packard Company
MS 88 work: 970 898-1523
3404 E. Harmony Rd. work: Carl.N.Baldwin@hp.com
Fort Collins, CO 80525 home: Carl@ecBaldwin.net
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Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Posted by Carl Baldwin <cn...@fc.hp.com>.
Hello,
I just had a thought.
I wonder if subversion could be made to defer the merging operation on
files with certain mime-types. This way, subversion would merely detect
the need to merge a file but defer the actual work to a script or
something. In the best case, it might be possible to wrap tools that
would attempt (hopefully successfully) to merge files like MS office
documents. If nothing else, the script could tell the user that a merge
needs to be done and mark the working copy dirty.
I actually got this idea from git. It has this sort of flexibility.
Actually, it will make a great back-end for this sort of use when it
gets a webdav interface (plus maybe autoversioning) and a neat windows
client. For now, though, its not an option.
Carl
On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 07:01:18PM -0400, Vincent Starre wrote:
> I would not recommend subversion for "text"-like things which are not
> bare text. While svn certainly /can/ do things like this, it would treat
> all files as binary, so a lot (though certainly not all) of the
> usefulness would be gone.
> Word[for example] is a common enough format that I'm sure there are some
> version control systems which are format-aware of Word[for example] files.
> Though I can't say with certainty, having not actually used it,
> "SharePoint" comes to mind.
>
> Jay Paulson wrote:
>
> >Hello all-
> >
> >I'm doing some research for many things and from reading about
> >subversion it might do the trick, but I still have questions.
> >
> >The company I currently work for has many different projects, however
> >they are not coding projects. The projects are mainly research ones
> >with many documents (Word, Excell, PDF docs etc) that are used with
> >this research (mainly documents things about the research but usually
> >go through many versions before a final version is released).
> >
> >What is needed is some sort of version control system that team
> >members can use to share files, collaborate ideas, and basically have
> >a project tracker kind of like SourceForge.net.
> >
> >My question is can Subversion handle something like this with mainly
> >different kind of documents that aren't programs etc? Is there a good
> >web interface that promotes users to collaborate? I would prefer if
> >the web interface was written in PHP but if there are good ones
> >written in something else I'd like to see them.
> >
> >Thanks for any suggestions!
> >
> >
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Re: Questions about using subversion for non-coding projects.
Posted by Vincent Starre <vs...@comcast.net>.
I would not recommend subversion for "text"-like things which are not
bare text. While svn certainly /can/ do things like this, it would treat
all files as binary, so a lot (though certainly not all) of the
usefulness would be gone.
Word[for example] is a common enough format that I'm sure there are some
version control systems which are format-aware of Word[for example] files.
Though I can't say with certainty, having not actually used it,
"SharePoint" comes to mind.
Jay Paulson wrote:
> Hello all-
>
> I'm doing some research for many things and from reading about
> subversion it might do the trick, but I still have questions.
>
> The company I currently work for has many different projects, however
> they are not coding projects. The projects are mainly research ones
> with many documents (Word, Excell, PDF docs etc) that are used with
> this research (mainly documents things about the research but usually
> go through many versions before a final version is released).
>
> What is needed is some sort of version control system that team
> members can use to share files, collaborate ideas, and basically have
> a project tracker kind of like SourceForge.net.
>
> My question is can Subversion handle something like this with mainly
> different kind of documents that aren't programs etc? Is there a good
> web interface that promotes users to collaborate? I would prefer if
> the web interface was written in PHP but if there are good ones
> written in something else I'd like to see them.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions!
>
>
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