Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Sebastian Hennebrueder <us...@laliluna.de>]

Hi all,

I would like to know, if there is still interest in a website update or 
not. We have seen so many discussion threads on the topic but every time 
there is something concrete there is a long silence.

I made some efforts to create a new website structure using existing 
technologies (Maven site). There had been some remarks on that but the 
effort got stuck finally. Some community members proposed to look for a 
better more flexible technology in order to integrate news or other 
sources of information.

In a recent discussion Ulrich proposed the alternative to use a Wiki 
based solution and I proposed the use of a static site generator. We 
discussed pros and cons but did not get to a final decision. Both 
approaches are viable solutions.

About 10 days ago, I put together a prototype to demonstrate how a 
static site generator works and allow the community to play with that 
solution. I was a kind of surprised that there wasn't a discussion. It 
is fine, if we decide not to use the approach because this allows us to 
go with the Wiki approach or another alternative. But if there is no 
interest in discussing and finally deciding on alternatives, then it is 
most unlikely that we will ever manage to update the website.

-- 
Best Regards / Viele Grüße

Sebastian Hennebrueder
-----
Software Developer and Trainer for Hibernate / Java Persistence
http://www.laliluna.de




---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

["Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:36:19 -0300, Sebastian Hennebrueder  
<us...@laliluna.de> wrote:

> Hi all,

Hi!

I agree that we need to decide on a solution and start working on it.

I vote on wiki or some other way that allow us to update pages on the fly.  
IMHO, replacing one static generator by another is not a good solution.

-- 
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,  
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Robin Komiwes <od...@gmail.com>]

What about trying to sync the website/doc rework for Tapestry 5.2 release?

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Robin Komiwes <od...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For the reworked homepage, I guess I could try to make some proposals in
> the next days.
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>wrote:
>
>> > Good point, bad attitude. If you feel you can close the gap and let
>> > committers to decide on your work.
>>
>> First we need common sense about what we want to accomplish as a
>> community, then people can jump in and provide their skills.
>> You can't expect people to put time and effort into something that
>> will not be used afterwards. Different people tend to have different
>> oppinions about what needs to be done and how...
>>
>> We have several proposals in this thread.. lets decide on them and
>> look how far we get. What comes up again and again is:
>> - a new documentation system
>> - tutorial-style documentation for beginners
>> - better structured, modern homepage
>>
>> For the documentation system we have 2 proposals:
>> - make use of confluence
>> - make use of textile
>>
>> Lets decide about this first - maybe with a new thread to vote on it.
>>
>> About the reworked homepage, lets start a vote if people agree that it
>> is neccessary to have a fresh, nice looking homepage - or if people
>> think its more important to put time into something else.. Then we can
>> see what steps are needed, and what people help out to accomplish the
>> goal.
>>
>> It's just my oppinion of course, and I am not a committer. Just trying
>> to move forward..
>>
>>             Piero
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Robin Komiwes <od...@gmail.com>]

For the reworked homepage, I guess I could try to make some proposals in the
next days.

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>wrote:

> > Good point, bad attitude. If you feel you can close the gap and let
> > committers to decide on your work.
>
> First we need common sense about what we want to accomplish as a
> community, then people can jump in and provide their skills.
> You can't expect people to put time and effort into something that
> will not be used afterwards. Different people tend to have different
> oppinions about what needs to be done and how...
>
> We have several proposals in this thread.. lets decide on them and
> look how far we get. What comes up again and again is:
> - a new documentation system
> - tutorial-style documentation for beginners
> - better structured, modern homepage
>
> For the documentation system we have 2 proposals:
> - make use of confluence
> - make use of textile
>
> Lets decide about this first - maybe with a new thread to vote on it.
>
> About the reworked homepage, lets start a vote if people agree that it
> is neccessary to have a fresh, nice looking homepage - or if people
> think its more important to put time into something else.. Then we can
> see what steps are needed, and what people help out to accomplish the
> goal.
>
> It's just my oppinion of course, and I am not a committer. Just trying
> to move forward..
>
>             Piero
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>]

> Good point, bad attitude. If you feel you can close the gap and let
> committers to decide on your work.

First we need common sense about what we want to accomplish as a
community, then people can jump in and provide their skills.
You can't expect people to put time and effort into something that
will not be used afterwards. Different people tend to have different
oppinions about what needs to be done and how...

We have several proposals in this thread.. lets decide on them and
look how far we get. What comes up again and again is:
- a new documentation system
- tutorial-style documentation for beginners
- better structured, modern homepage

For the documentation system we have 2 proposals:
- make use of confluence
- make use of textile

Lets decide about this first - maybe with a new thread to vote on it.

About the reworked homepage, lets start a vote if people agree that it
is neccessary to have a fresh, nice looking homepage - or if people
think its more important to put time into something else.. Then we can
see what steps are needed, and what people help out to accomplish the
goal.

It's just my oppinion of course, and I am not a committer. Just trying
to move forward..

             Piero

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de> wrote:

> To make the point: Tapestry is developed by excellent developers,
> whats missing are marketing people and designers!
> I am pretty sure there are some of us who could fullfill these roles -
> but another problem is responsibility and common sense. My oppinion is
> that tapestry needs to decide on a direction and strategy first. After
> that, people may jump in.
>

Good point, bad attitude. If you feel you can close the gap and let
committers to decide on your work.

Cheers
-- 
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>]

> I would also say that the actual website looks like a bit "older" and would
> need some redesign, with quotes from users, community sections etc.
> Like :
> http://liftweb.net/
> http://www.grails.org/
> http://jquery.com/

+1. It's not enough to have a good framework and easy to modify
documentation - we need to create a nice looking, easy to navigate,
easy to start with web presence to gain more users. The first
impression of tapestry is not that great at all, and I bet a lot of
users just move away because of this.

To make the point: Tapestry is developed by excellent developers,
whats missing are marketing people and designers!
I am pretty sure there are some of us who could fullfill these roles -
but another problem is responsibility and common sense. My oppinion is
that tapestry needs to decide on a direction and strategy first. After
that, people may jump in.

The homepage and documentation needs to be just one piece of a more
general strategy.

                     Piero

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Robin Komiwes <od...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

I completely agree with Kalle on:

"but I bet that users in general are missing documentation that is more
flowing and more tutorial type, similar to Spring's and Hibernate's.
It's difficult to use the current documentation if you don't know
exactly what you are looking for."

I would also say that the actual website looks like a bit "older" and would
need some redesign, with quotes from users, community sections etc.
Like :
http://liftweb.net/
http://www.grails.org/
http://jquery.com/


Regards,

Robin



On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:06 AM, Kalle Korhonen
<ka...@gmail.com>wrote:

> It's a bit more than just the organization of the documentation IMHO.
> The existing documentation is of really good quality, but I bet that
> users in general are missing documentation that is more flowing and
> more tutorial type, similar to Spring's and Hibernate's. It's
> difficult to use the current documentation if you don't know exactly
> what you are looking for. Wiki is a better format for the tutorials
> since there's so much to improve on the linguistic form alone.
> Tynamo.org is of course a much smaller project than Tapestry, but
> hopefully we've at least proven that Wiki is a viable format for
> "official" documentation. Another thing we've been able to do thanks
> to Codehaus, is a seamless integration of Wiki and Maven-based content
> (for example, compare http://tynamo.org/Overview and
> http://tynamo.org/tapestry-model/tapestry-model-core/dependencies.html
> - the former is a pure wiki page and the latter is Maven originated
> content). It's a pity that Maven doesn't currently have better
> out-of-box support for integrating with Wiki systems.
>
> I think the lack of comments doesn't imply lack of interest, but the
> fact that its difficult to suggest a good, compromising solution.
> Hopefully I didn't muddy the waters too much with this post but in
> general, I'm in favor of making (parts of) the documentation
> wiki-based.
>
> Kalle
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Igor Drobiazko
> <ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well, I'm pretty fine with Maven-based site. There is no lack of
> > documentation. The problem is the structure and organization. Tapestry's
> > documentation is hard to find because it is spread over several modules.
> > First of all we need to move T5 site to the start page and maybe put all
> the
> > documentation into a single module. I guess no switch to any technology
> or
> > format is needed.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Sebastian Hennebrueder
> > <us...@laliluna.de>wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I would like to know, if there is still interest in a website update or
> >> not. We have seen so many discussion threads on the topic but every time
> >> there is something concrete there is a long silence.
> >>
> >> I made some efforts to create a new website structure using existing
> >> technologies (Maven site). There had been some remarks on that but the
> >> effort got stuck finally. Some community members proposed to look for a
> >> better more flexible technology in order to integrate news or other
> sources
> >> of information.
> >>
> >> In a recent discussion Ulrich proposed the alternative to use a Wiki
> based
> >> solution and I proposed the use of a static site generator. We discussed
> >> pros and cons but did not get to a final decision. Both approaches are
> >> viable solutions.
> >>
> >> About 10 days ago, I put together a prototype to demonstrate how a
> static
> >> site generator works and allow the community to play with that solution.
> I
> >> was a kind of surprised that there wasn't a discussion. It is fine, if
> we
> >> decide not to use the approach because this allows us to go with the
> Wiki
> >> approach or another alternative. But if there is no interest in
> discussing
> >> and finally deciding on alternatives, then it is most unlikely that we
> will
> >> ever manage to update the website.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Best Regards / Viele Grüße
> >>
> >> Sebastian Hennebrueder
> >> -----
> >> Software Developer and Trainer for Hibernate / Java Persistence
> >> http://www.laliluna.de
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Igor Drobiazko
> > http://tapestry5.de/blog
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Kalle Korhonen <ka...@gmail.com>]

It's a bit more than just the organization of the documentation IMHO.
The existing documentation is of really good quality, but I bet that
users in general are missing documentation that is more flowing and
more tutorial type, similar to Spring's and Hibernate's. It's
difficult to use the current documentation if you don't know exactly
what you are looking for. Wiki is a better format for the tutorials
since there's so much to improve on the linguistic form alone.
Tynamo.org is of course a much smaller project than Tapestry, but
hopefully we've at least proven that Wiki is a viable format for
"official" documentation. Another thing we've been able to do thanks
to Codehaus, is a seamless integration of Wiki and Maven-based content
(for example, compare http://tynamo.org/Overview and
http://tynamo.org/tapestry-model/tapestry-model-core/dependencies.html
- the former is a pure wiki page and the latter is Maven originated
content). It's a pity that Maven doesn't currently have better
out-of-box support for integrating with Wiki systems.

I think the lack of comments doesn't imply lack of interest, but the
fact that its difficult to suggest a good, compromising solution.
Hopefully I didn't muddy the waters too much with this post but in
general, I'm in favor of making (parts of) the documentation
wiki-based.

Kalle


On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Igor Drobiazko
<ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I'm pretty fine with Maven-based site. There is no lack of
> documentation. The problem is the structure and organization. Tapestry's
> documentation is hard to find because it is spread over several modules.
> First of all we need to move T5 site to the start page and maybe put all the
> documentation into a single module. I guess no switch to any technology or
> format is needed.
>
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Sebastian Hennebrueder
> <us...@laliluna.de>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to know, if there is still interest in a website update or
>> not. We have seen so many discussion threads on the topic but every time
>> there is something concrete there is a long silence.
>>
>> I made some efforts to create a new website structure using existing
>> technologies (Maven site). There had been some remarks on that but the
>> effort got stuck finally. Some community members proposed to look for a
>> better more flexible technology in order to integrate news or other sources
>> of information.
>>
>> In a recent discussion Ulrich proposed the alternative to use a Wiki based
>> solution and I proposed the use of a static site generator. We discussed
>> pros and cons but did not get to a final decision. Both approaches are
>> viable solutions.
>>
>> About 10 days ago, I put together a prototype to demonstrate how a static
>> site generator works and allow the community to play with that solution. I
>> was a kind of surprised that there wasn't a discussion. It is fine, if we
>> decide not to use the approach because this allows us to go with the Wiki
>> approach or another alternative. But if there is no interest in discussing
>> and finally deciding on alternatives, then it is most unlikely that we will
>> ever manage to update the website.
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards / Viele Grüße
>>
>> Sebastian Hennebrueder
>> -----
>> Software Developer and Trainer for Hibernate / Java Persistence
>> http://www.laliluna.de
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Igor Drobiazko
> http://tapestry5.de/blog
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Igor Drobiazko
<ig...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, I'm pretty fine with Maven-based site. There is no lack of
> documentation. The problem is the structure and organization. Tapestry's
> documentation is hard to find because it is spread over several modules.
> First of all we need to move T5 site to the start page and maybe put all the
> documentation into a single module. I guess no switch to any technology or
> format is needed.

Completely agree.

Talking about other's ideas of an "older-looking site"  IMHO it seems
obvious that having an appealing site is a plus but that doesn't
deserve the importance others are giving.

-- 
Massimo
http://meridio.blogspot.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org

Re: Tapestry website update wanted or not?

[Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>]

Well, I'm pretty fine with Maven-based site. There is no lack of
documentation. The problem is the structure and organization. Tapestry's
documentation is hard to find because it is spread over several modules.
First of all we need to move T5 site to the start page and maybe put all the
documentation into a single module. I guess no switch to any technology or
format is needed.

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Sebastian Hennebrueder
<us...@laliluna.de>wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I would like to know, if there is still interest in a website update or
> not. We have seen so many discussion threads on the topic but every time
> there is something concrete there is a long silence.
>
> I made some efforts to create a new website structure using existing
> technologies (Maven site). There had been some remarks on that but the
> effort got stuck finally. Some community members proposed to look for a
> better more flexible technology in order to integrate news or other sources
> of information.
>
> In a recent discussion Ulrich proposed the alternative to use a Wiki based
> solution and I proposed the use of a static site generator. We discussed
> pros and cons but did not get to a final decision. Both approaches are
> viable solutions.
>
> About 10 days ago, I put together a prototype to demonstrate how a static
> site generator works and allow the community to play with that solution. I
> was a kind of surprised that there wasn't a discussion. It is fine, if we
> decide not to use the approach because this allows us to go with the Wiki
> approach or another alternative. But if there is no interest in discussing
> and finally deciding on alternatives, then it is most unlikely that we will
> ever manage to update the website.
>
> --
> Best Regards / Viele Grüße
>
> Sebastian Hennebrueder
> -----
> Software Developer and Trainer for Hibernate / Java Persistence
> http://www.laliluna.de
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Best regards,

Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de/blog