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Posted to dev@couchdb.apache.org by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> on 2013/11/30 11:05:36 UTC
[discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Enough is enough,
I am starting to be really frustrated this situation. Not having any
control on the couchapp.org starts to be really annoying. It is now 1 week
since the couchapp.org website is spammed without any possibility to revert
the content or whatever.
I will yet again contact Jchris and Jason about it, and hopefully one of
them will answer and it will be solved next week. But we can’t continue
like this. I’m frustrated, some users are frustrated etc. Especially since
some are ready to start a real documentation. So I would like to clear the
situation this time.
If we considers the couchapps concept as a part of the couchdb project,
then we should:
- either start some action
- or find a new name and new way to document the concept
If some of you consider that we should just ditch the couchapps concept
from the couchdb and make couchdb another database, then we should also
clarify this situation and start a real discussion about it and at the end
take a decision
So let's solve that,
- benoit
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Jim Klo <ji...@sri.com>.
FWIW the domain expires on Dec 13th in a couple weeks. If couchbase doesn't care about it, maybe they won't renew it?
Jim Klo
Senior Software Engineer
SRI International
t: @nsomnac
On Nov 30, 2013, at 8:18 AM, "Octavian Damiean" <od...@linux.com>> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Filippo Fadda <
filippo.fadda@programmazione.it<ma...@programmazione.it>> wrote:
Anyway, if you decide (I mean you all) that the couch apps are an integral
CouchDB part, I think they should be a topic of the CouchDB main site and
not live in a separate domain. Else, if you consider couch apps as an
external resource, like any other projects made on top of CouchDB, I don't
see any responsibility of yours.
I don't quite agree. That's not the way we should handle things.
If we want to have a good reputation among our peers then it is important
to reach out to external projects and offer our assistance, especially if
that external project is a really visible one.
Cheers,
--
Octavian Damiean
GitHub: https://github.com/mainerror
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com>.
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Filippo Fadda <
filippo.fadda@programmazione.it> wrote:
> Anyway, if you decide (I mean you all) that the couch apps are an integral
> CouchDB part, I think they should be a topic of the CouchDB main site and
> not live in a separate domain. Else, if you consider couch apps as an
> external resource, like any other projects made on top of CouchDB, I don't
> see any responsibility of yours.
>
I don't quite agree. That's not the way we should handle things.
If we want to have a good reputation among our peers then it is important
to reach out to external projects and offer our assistance, especially if
that external project is a really visible one.
Cheers,
--
Octavian Damiean
GitHub: https://github.com/mainerror
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
Filippo,
I heard you, thanks.
And FYI show, list and other functions are already "plugins": you may
disable them at httpd_design_handlers config section in any time or
replace them by your own implementation.
--
,,,^..^,,,
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 7:28 PM, Filippo Fadda
<fi...@programmazione.it> wrote:
>
> On Dec 1, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Alexander Shorin wrote:
>> You can do the same with Erlang query server since it has access to
>> all internal functions.
>
> I can do it in PHP inside my Query Server (I already said this to you), without the need to investigate the CouchDB internals, trying to find the functions to do that. I can simply include ElephantOnCouch inside my query server and use it. But I'm not gonna do that, because I can obtain the same result with a simple PHP script.
> Should I use ErLang, learning something that is not documented, spending days, just to obtain a little performance gain? Who cares!
> You know why Oracle invented PL/SQL, Microsoft created Transact SQL or any other RDBMS uses an SQL dialect? BECAUSE THEY ARE SIMPLE!
> The internal functions you are talking about are not even documented for christ's sake.
>
>> But I don't think you'd like to shot youself
>> in foot by such side effects by losing all your data (; I even wonder
>> if you really wanted them since it's good practice to have no global
>> state and no side effects for any functions no matter where they are
>> been executed: on CouchDB or inside your program. No state and no side
>> effects guarantees you portability and explicit behaviour. For more
>> arguments follow the functional programming languages - this is quite
>> interesting world, but this is offtopic.
>
> The main purpose of a stored procedure is to elaborate data. The results are new data or data changes. You can't do that inside a list or a show, so they are not stored procedures. The only way you can do that is using ErLang, right? Wow, this is great, same as writing an Oracle stored procedure using C and the Oracle undocumented "internal functions". I'm sarcastic.
> There is no point using list and show, unless you are writing a CouchApp using CouchDB as an application server. Full stop. For me CouchDB is a database, not an application server. Things like show and list shouldn't be part of the core.
>
>> Also, ability to debug code is mostly depends on query server - the
>> standalone process that executes design functions. To debug Erlang
>> function you may use Erlang features (I couldn't recommend any since
>> I'm currently follow debug-by-logs way); for Python I made mock query
>> server and quite rich set of utilities to test you code right in your
>> IDE without uploading it to CouchDB; for JavaScript you may even debug
>> inside your browser:
>> https://jhs.iriscouch.com/files/debugger/debug.html
>
> I'm not gonna complicate my life when I can use any IDE with xdebug, unit testing, step by step debugging.
>
>> The idea of CouchApp not only to write some own code in
>> JS/PHP/Python/etc. but also to be able share them with easy using
>> replication feature. People are able to just replicate your app to own
>> local host (even to mobile futon) and they shouldn't it broken. The
>> rough edge are custom query servers, but it isn't an big issue: I'd
>> run Python query server on Android with easy, same should be for other
>> langs, I'm sure.
>
> And since I'm not interested in a CouchApp and I think CouchDB should be a database - not an application server - I don't think the concept should be part of CouchDB. This is MY opinion. You have a different vision of what CouchDB should be, an application server, we already know that. Why do you insist so much?
>
>> Outside of CouchApp context, the main goal of show and list functions
>> to format doc and view responses in the way you need: return them as
>> nice HTML page or preprocess data before clients will get them or
>> something else. This is a feature: you may use it, you may don't.
>> Really, you don't argue for removal every PHP std function that you
>> found useless, right?(:
>
> I don't use them and I don't want them inside CouchDB because those functional requirements (list and show) don't fit the goals of the product, since the product, for me, it's a database and not an application server. It's pretty clear, why can't you understand?
> PHP is a different, it's not a database, it's a language with a standard library and a ton of extensions.
> List and show could be made available as a CouchDB plugin. This plugin can be called CouchApp. This is my vision. And this my last word on the subject.
>
> -Filippo
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Filippo Fadda <
filippo.fadda@programmazione.it> wrote:
>
> On Dec 1, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Alexander Shorin wrote:
> > You can do the same with Erlang query server since it has access to
> > all internal functions.
>
> I can do it in PHP inside my Query Server (I already said this to you),
> without the need to investigate the CouchDB internals, trying to find the
> functions to do that. I can simply include ElephantOnCouch inside my query
> server and use it. But I'm not gonna do that, because I can obtain the same
> result with a simple PHP script.
> Should I use ErLang, learning something that is not documented, spending
> days, just to obtain a little performance gain? Who cares!
> You know why Oracle invented PL/SQL, Microsoft created Transact SQL or any
> other RDBMS uses an SQL dialect? BECAUSE THEY ARE SIMPLE!
> The internal functions you are talking about are not even documented for
> christ's sake.
>
> > But I don't think you'd like to shot youself
> > in foot by such side effects by losing all your data (; I even wonder
> > if you really wanted them since it's good practice to have no global
> > state and no side effects for any functions no matter where they are
> > been executed: on CouchDB or inside your program. No state and no side
> > effects guarantees you portability and explicit behaviour. For more
> > arguments follow the functional programming languages - this is quite
> > interesting world, but this is offtopic.
>
> The main purpose of a stored procedure is to elaborate data. The results
> are new data or data changes. You can't do that inside a list or a show, so
> they are not stored procedures. The only way you can do that is using
> ErLang, right? Wow, this is great, same as writing an Oracle stored
> procedure using C and the Oracle undocumented "internal functions". I'm
> sarcastic.
>
Purpose of the lists are to manipulate results from secondary indexes aka
views. SInce you can join and link inside a view. You have alreayd a lot
without having to access to a db. Like stored procedures in facts (not
triggers).
> There is no point using list and show, unless you are writing a CouchApp
> using CouchDB as an application server. Full stop.
Ypu're wrong about that. Having a way to share data transformations using
the replications amd make it available to all clients whatever their
languages is quite convenient.
Anyway you made your point. I just wanted to clarify this.
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Filippo Fadda <fi...@programmazione.it>.
On Dec 1, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Alexander Shorin wrote:
> You can do the same with Erlang query server since it has access to
> all internal functions.
I can do it in PHP inside my Query Server (I already said this to you), without the need to investigate the CouchDB internals, trying to find the functions to do that. I can simply include ElephantOnCouch inside my query server and use it. But I'm not gonna do that, because I can obtain the same result with a simple PHP script.
Should I use ErLang, learning something that is not documented, spending days, just to obtain a little performance gain? Who cares!
You know why Oracle invented PL/SQL, Microsoft created Transact SQL or any other RDBMS uses an SQL dialect? BECAUSE THEY ARE SIMPLE!
The internal functions you are talking about are not even documented for christ's sake.
> But I don't think you'd like to shot youself
> in foot by such side effects by losing all your data (; I even wonder
> if you really wanted them since it's good practice to have no global
> state and no side effects for any functions no matter where they are
> been executed: on CouchDB or inside your program. No state and no side
> effects guarantees you portability and explicit behaviour. For more
> arguments follow the functional programming languages - this is quite
> interesting world, but this is offtopic.
The main purpose of a stored procedure is to elaborate data. The results are new data or data changes. You can't do that inside a list or a show, so they are not stored procedures. The only way you can do that is using ErLang, right? Wow, this is great, same as writing an Oracle stored procedure using C and the Oracle undocumented "internal functions". I'm sarcastic.
There is no point using list and show, unless you are writing a CouchApp using CouchDB as an application server. Full stop. For me CouchDB is a database, not an application server. Things like show and list shouldn't be part of the core.
> Also, ability to debug code is mostly depends on query server - the
> standalone process that executes design functions. To debug Erlang
> function you may use Erlang features (I couldn't recommend any since
> I'm currently follow debug-by-logs way); for Python I made mock query
> server and quite rich set of utilities to test you code right in your
> IDE without uploading it to CouchDB; for JavaScript you may even debug
> inside your browser:
> https://jhs.iriscouch.com/files/debugger/debug.html
I'm not gonna complicate my life when I can use any IDE with xdebug, unit testing, step by step debugging.
> The idea of CouchApp not only to write some own code in
> JS/PHP/Python/etc. but also to be able share them with easy using
> replication feature. People are able to just replicate your app to own
> local host (even to mobile futon) and they shouldn't it broken. The
> rough edge are custom query servers, but it isn't an big issue: I'd
> run Python query server on Android with easy, same should be for other
> langs, I'm sure.
And since I'm not interested in a CouchApp and I think CouchDB should be a database - not an application server - I don't think the concept should be part of CouchDB. This is MY opinion. You have a different vision of what CouchDB should be, an application server, we already know that. Why do you insist so much?
> Outside of CouchApp context, the main goal of show and list functions
> to format doc and view responses in the way you need: return them as
> nice HTML page or preprocess data before clients will get them or
> something else. This is a feature: you may use it, you may don't.
> Really, you don't argue for removal every PHP std function that you
> found useless, right?(:
I don't use them and I don't want them inside CouchDB because those functional requirements (list and show) don't fit the goals of the product, since the product, for me, it's a database and not an application server. It's pretty clear, why can't you understand?
PHP is a different, it's not a database, it's a language with a standard library and a ton of extensions.
List and show could be made available as a CouchDB plugin. This plugin can be called CouchApp. This is my vision. And this my last word on the subject.
-Filippo
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 6:33 AM, Filippo Fadda
<fi...@programmazione.it> wrote:
>
> On Dec 1, 2013, at 1:18 AM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
>> And you keep ignoring what I said about the doc. Ie. it is not complete
>> (and it must be fixed).
>>
>> Like stored procedure they are stored. Like stored procedure they can be
>> used in a query. Afaik queries happen on HTTP level in couchdb.
>>
>> Also "are side effect free and idempotent" = no side effect and idempotent
>
> You can manipulate data inside a stored procedure, you can change values, entire rows, delete columns, change a column type, you can do whatever you want, even drop a table. A stored procedure can have side effects, obviously. And you can debug your code.
You can do the same with Erlang query server since it has access to
all internal functions. But I don't think you'd like to shot youself
in foot by such side effects by losing all your data (; I even wonder
if you really wanted them since it's good practice to have no global
state and no side effects for any functions no matter where they are
been executed: on CouchDB or inside your program. No state and no side
effects guarantees you portability and explicit behaviour. For more
arguments follow the functional programming languages - this is quite
interesting world, but this is offtopic.
Also, ability to debug code is mostly depends on query server - the
standalone process that executes design functions. To debug Erlang
function you may use Erlang features (I couldn't recommend any since
I'm currently follow debug-by-logs way); for Python I made mock query
server and quite rich set of utilities to test you code right in your
IDE without uploading it to CouchDB; for JavaScript you may even debug
inside your browser:
https://jhs.iriscouch.com/files/debugger/debug.html
>> You're just ignoring how to use shows and lists and how they are used. Some
>> are just using them like a way to handle and merge different sets using
>> links and joins. And like many things in couchdb they need to be improved
>> in term of performance.
>
> I'm not ignoring anything Benoit, believe me.
>
>> Moving on what exactly? You keep saying we should remove the couchapp
>> engine etc.... But the why is still unclear. To be honest it's hard to
>> discuss about such topic without knowing what's your business with couchdb.
>> Maybe you could clarify that?
>
> For me CouchDB is a database and I use it like a database, storing and retrieving documents, that's all. I don't need an application server and I don't need couch apps. I like the idea of stored procedures but I don't find them so important, and like they are, list and show, are useless to me. They are pretty hard to debug and I don't see any use case for them. I can do the same with a PHP script.
The idea of CouchApp not only to write some own code in
JS/PHP/Python/etc. but also to be able share them with easy using
replication feature. People are able to just replicate your app to own
local host (even to mobile futon) and they shouldn't it broken. The
rough edge are custom query servers, but it isn't an big issue: I'd
run Python query server on Android with easy, same should be for other
langs, I'm sure.
Outside of CouchApp context, the main goal of show and list functions
to format doc and view responses in the way you need: return them as
nice HTML page or preprocess data before clients will get them or
something else. This is a feature: you may use it, you may don't.
Really, you don't argue for removal every PHP std function that you
found useless, right?(:
For debugging see above - it's all depends on query server
implementation, CouchDB doesn't controls things inside query servers
and even doesn't cares about them much: just respect the protocol and
send response before time is out.
--
,,,^..^,,
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Filippo Fadda <fi...@programmazione.it>.
On Dec 1, 2013, at 1:18 AM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
> And you keep ignoring what I said about the doc. Ie. it is not complete
> (and it must be fixed).
>
> Like stored procedure they are stored. Like stored procedure they can be
> used in a query. Afaik queries happen on HTTP level in couchdb.
>
> Also "are side effect free and idempotent" = no side effect and idempotent
You can manipulate data inside a stored procedure, you can change values, entire rows, delete columns, change a column type, you can do whatever you want, even drop a table. A stored procedure can have side effects, obviously. And you can debug your code.
> You're just ignoring how to use shows and lists and how they are used. Some
> are just using them like a way to handle and merge different sets using
> links and joins. And like many things in couchdb they need to be improved
> in term of performance.
I'm not ignoring anything Benoit, believe me.
> Moving on what exactly? You keep saying we should remove the couchapp
> engine etc.... But the why is still unclear. To be honest it's hard to
> discuss about such topic without knowing what's your business with couchdb.
> Maybe you could clarify that?
For me CouchDB is a database and I use it like a database, storing and retrieving documents, that's all. I don't need an application server and I don't need couch apps. I like the idea of stored procedures but I don't find them so important, and like they are, list and show, are useless to me. They are pretty hard to debug and I don't see any use case for them. I can do the same with a PHP script.
Performances optimization, joins, the big couch integration, improved replication, a faster update of the views, a better query server protocol, these are all things matter to me. Show and list are something I can live without.
> Anyway I am not here to discuss *yet* about that. I am discussing either
> the possibility to discuss it (and I noted your point) or fixing the
> current issue. Like other suggested they are indeed 2 different topics that
> we can handle in // . Right now the fact is that the couchapp website can't
> be updated and other media not controlled and it's very damageable for the
> community whatever the final decision will be,
Things are correlated. If you all think CouchApp should be part of CouchDB, then shutdown couchapp.org and include the documentation in the main site: couchdb.apache.org. Else, if CouchApp is something related, a project built on top of CouchDB, a plugin, recall the ownership of couchapp.org from the actual maintainer and manage it.
I'm not gonna spend more time on the subject. Please just accept that we can have different opinions.
Thank you
-Filippo
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Filippo Fadda <
filippo.fadda@programmazione.it> wrote:
> List and show are not stored procedure. We already discussed that Benoit.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/Formatting_with_Show_and_List
>
> From the documentation: "Show and list functions are side effect free and
> idempotent. They can not make additional HTTP requests against CouchDB.
> Their purpose is to render JSON documents in other formats."
> Apples are not pears. I'm not buying it, stop selling list and show like
> stored proc. A stored procedure, in general, is not side effect free or
> idempotent.
>
And you keep ignoring what I said about the doc. Ie. it is not complete
(and it must be fixed).
Like stored procedure they are stored. Like stored procedure they can be
used in a query. Afaik queries happen on HTTP level in couchdb.
Also "are side effect free and idempotent" = no side effect and idempotent
...
> > If you just want a database then any KV is enough for your purpose. If
> now
> > you want a DBMS which at least I want, then you probably want a way to
> > store procedures and such to adapt the query language to your needs.
> Guess,
> > what is the purpose of lists and shows?
>
> Not in the way they are. To me, actually list and show are useless. I'm
> sorry, this is what I think.
You're just ignoring how to use shows and lists and how they are used. Some
are just using them like a way to handle and merge different sets using
links and joins. And like many things in couchdb they need to be improved
in term of performance.
> Can we just move on?
>
Moving on what exactly? You keep saying we should remove the couchapp
engine etc.... But the why is still unclear. To be honest it's hard to
discuss about such topic without knowing what's your business with couchdb.
Maybe you could clarify that?
Anyway I am not here to discuss *yet* about that. I am discussing either
the possibility to discuss it (and I noted your point) or fixing the
current issue. Like other suggested they are indeed 2 different topics that
we can handle in // . Right now the fact is that the couchapp website can't
be updated and other media not controlled and it's very damageable for the
community whatever the final decision will be,
- benoit
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Matt Goodall <ma...@gmail.com>.
For the record, I think it's important to remember that design docs
are extensible, i.e. couchapp-style tools should also support
'fulltext' (couchdb-lucene), 'spatial' (geocouch), etc members. In
general, that means blindly building a design doc from whatever bits
(js, json, plain text) are on disk. I think both couchapp and erica
handle this already.
I really see couchapp-style tools in a two parts:
1. Project starter. Dumps a typical directory structure to disk
according to some template, e.g. erica's create-app and create-webapp
or couchapp's startapp and generate commands.
2. Pull/clone. Updates a database from whatever is on disk or vice versa.
Would it make sense to provide two distinct tools? The pull/clone tool
might even be the only tool that's included in apache's couchdb
distribution, which is likely to appeal to those who see couchdb as
purely a database and should be easy to get in very quickly.
- Matt
On 4 December 2013 22:11, Benjamin Young <by...@bigbluehat.com> wrote:
> On 11/30/13, 7:20 PM, Russell Branca wrote:
>>
>> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
>> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible
>
>
> First parts done:
> https://github.com/couchapp/couchapp/wiki/Complete-Filesystem-to-Design-Doc-Mapping-Example
>
> erica and couchapp(.py) both support it.
>
> node.couchapp.js can also support the format if the app.js is setup properly
> via couchapp.loadFiles() for each key.
>
> kan.so can as well:
> http://kan.so/docs/Kanso_for_developers_using_the_python_couchapp_tool
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Benjamin Young <by...@bigbluehat.com>.
On 11/30/13, 7:20 PM, Russell Branca wrote:
> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible
First parts done:
https://github.com/couchapp/couchapp/wiki/Complete-Filesystem-to-Design-Doc-Mapping-Example
erica and couchapp(.py) both support it.
node.couchapp.js can also support the format if the app.js is setup
properly via couchapp.loadFiles() for each key.
kan.so can as well:
http://kan.so/docs/Kanso_for_developers_using_the_python_couchapp_tool
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com>.
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Vivek Pathak <vp...@orgmeta.com> wrote:
>
> Firstly, let me thank you all on the great work you have done with couch.
> Thanks.
>
> Secondly, regardless of JChris/domain ownership/personal likings etc; Is
> there any possibility of improving (or changing) couchapp (or its
> replacement's) functionality?
>
>
> For example:
>
> 1. Javascript stored on the file system must match the javascript stored
> on couch (i.e. no including common code through comments in view files) -
> this is required if you want reliable version control - and be able to
> match each code change with behavior change and vice versa.
>
> 2. Support unit test and profiling support (or at least permit them
> without having to modify the code managed through couchapp). There has
> been quite a bit of work on unit tests/linting tools etc, and the way
> couchapp works makes it difficult to take advantage of these.
>
> Of course these are my desires - and I understand you and others may not
> share it. And you have my apologies in case any of these topics are
> discomforting in any way.
>
> I will shut up now.
>
> Thanks
> Vivek
Hello there,
There is no need to shut up, discussions are welcome and your questions
seem legit however I'd propose asking this question in its own thread. It
is not really on topic in this thread.
Cheers,
--
Octavian Damiean
GitHub: https://github.com/mainerror
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Vivek Pathak <vp...@orgmeta.com>.
Firstly, let me thank you all on the great work you have done with
couch. Thanks.
Secondly, regardless of JChris/domain ownership/personal likings etc;
Is there any possibility of improving (or changing) couchapp (or its
replacement's) functionality?
For example:
1. Javascript stored on the file system must match the javascript stored
on couch (i.e. no including common code through comments in view files)
- this is required if you want reliable version control - and be able to
match each code change with behavior change and vice versa.
2. Support unit test and profiling support (or at least permit them
without having to modify the code managed through couchapp). There has
been quite a bit of work on unit tests/linting tools etc, and the way
couchapp works makes it difficult to take advantage of these.
Of course these are my desires - and I understand you and others may not
share it. And you have my apologies in case any of these topics are
discomforting in any way.
I will shut up now.
Thanks
Vivek
On 12/02/2013 05:35 AM, Andy Wenk wrote:
> why don't we stop the discussion here and think about how couchapp.org or
> at least the contents can be maintained further? There are only some points
> to clarify:
>
> - do we (the CouchDB community) want to maintain the contents? Regardless
> if it is "part" of CouchDB or not (this is a never-ending discussion imho)
>
> - who will start to speak with JChris about the domain?
>
> - where do we want to host the domain or contents?
>
> I have a personal interest to keep couchapp.org and / or it's contents
> running because that was my first contact with CouchDB, Benoit and JChris.
> I don't want to see the awesome work die!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
> On 2 December 2013 02:50, Vivek Pathak <vp...@orgmeta.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I agree quite a bit about the coucapp. Hence couldnt help but comment.
>>
>> Couchapp does seem to have quite a few rough corners feel to it - when
>> compared to the soundness of couchdb as a whole (even without bigcouch etc).
>>
>> I have been using a self written tool to push view/list/show code to
>> couchdb from using a makefile for my project. A sample line from the
>> makefile is as follows:
>>
>> belongs_view:
>> update_field.py -u $(COUCH) $(DBNAME) _design/ids views.belongs.map
>> belongs.js
>>
>> This pushes belongs.js to key db["_design/ids"].views.belongs.map ,
>> recursively creating any intermediate json objects as needed.
>>
>> It has worked well for me because I get to edit my javascript code in any
>> editor. And unlike couchapp, I do not need to install a python package
>> (particularly one which does not seem to have heavy community support).
>>
>> The use case for couchapp is mentioned as sharing code between views (
>> http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/HTTP_view_API#Sharing_Code_Between_Views). At the cost of adding shared code into common js modules explicitly, I
>> get the convenience of "what you see is what you get" - unlike the
>> inclusion of code through JS comments in couchapp.
>>
>> If the overall idea of having a standalone tool is attractive, I can
>> surely improve it a bit (eg: usage line can improve, etc) and share more
>> widely. It anyway was created under an apache 2 licence.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Vivek
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/30/13, 10:33 PM, Alexander Shorin wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:20 AM, Russell Branca <ch...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In its current form, couchapp.org is a relic that has been mostly
>>>> abandoned
>>>> and is not maintainable by the community. I strongly feel we should move
>>>> the couchapp documentation into official documentation. I see two
>>>> relevant
>>>> points of interest in this discussion. First is the notion of couchapps
>>>> as
>>>> the self contained application platform that utilizes show/list
>>>> functions,
>>>> and whether these should be included in CouchDB. I don't think this is
>>>> the
>>>> important issue at hand.
>>>>
>>>> The bigger issue is that the defacto method of defining design documents
>>>> is
>>>> to use one of the many "couchapp" tools, and the only place this is
>>>> documented as a whole is couchapp.org. This is a disservice to the
>>>> community, and one that needs to be resolved. This is a constant source
>>>> of
>>>> confusion to new users who quickly realize the futility of defining
>>>> design
>>>> docs in the browser, and get lost when told "just use a couchapp", and
>>>> then
>>>> they inevitably end up clicking on the top google result for "couchapp",
>>>> couchapp.org. We need to have this properly documented in the official
>>>> documentation so that the process is fully defined for new users.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
>>>> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible, or to
>>>> officially bless a tool like Erica. While I do want to see Fauxton
>>>> provide
>>>> powerful editors for all the different function types, I don't think this
>>>> is sufficient as people typically want to keep their design docs raw code
>>>> under SCM. Whatever approach is taken, I think the number one priority
>>>> here
>>>> is ensuring proper documentation explaining to users best practices for
>>>> defining and maintaining design docs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Russell
>>>>
>>> +1 and actually I'm only waiting for rcouch merge and having erica as
>>> builtin tool. There is already big place to land all the stuff in
>>> source code tree and even named also as "couchapp" since it provides
>>> huge potential for more interesting and rich content rather than just
>>> "ddoc" or similar.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>>
>>
>
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com>.
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Peter Nolan <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the purpose of 'what a couchapp is' in my previous email was intended to
> clarify what a couchapp is. In the past, there has been many discussions
> on what exactly constitutes a 'couchapp', and i just wanted to express my
> view what a 'couchapp' is. And more importantly, to emphasize the
> independence of couchapps. Too often, i see amazing things that are
> 'couchappy' that, in order to add more features to their 'couchapp',
> requires too many things (Node.JS and such) or neglect major operating
> systems (windows in particular). Just wanted to say my peace on the
> subject. *steps off soapbox*
>
Ah, ok. I misunderstood you then, just as I thought. :)
--
Octavian Damiean
GitHub: https://github.com/mainerror
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Peter Nolan <pe...@gmail.com>.
Heya,
the purpose of 'what a couchapp is' in my previous email was intended to
clarify what a couchapp is. In the past, there has been many discussions
on what exactly constitutes a 'couchapp', and i just wanted to express my
view what a 'couchapp' is. And more importantly, to emphasize the
independence of couchapps. Too often, i see amazing things that are
'couchappy' that, in order to add more features to their 'couchapp',
requires too many things (Node.JS and such) or neglect major operating
systems (windows in particular). Just wanted to say my peace on the
subject. *steps off soapbox*
Before talking about what should be on the couchapp website, the first
question i'd like to ask is, is the term 'couchapp' copyrighted in anyway?
Trademarked? I just wanna make sure that no person/entity can claim
ownership of the term in the future.
-Pete
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Peter Nolan <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Personally, what i'd like to see from 'couch-apps'. is the ability for a
> > layman to be able to develop websites that use couchdb as the database,
> > knowing only
> >
> > HTML
> > CSS
> > Javascript
> > Couchdb
> >
> >
> > Without needing the following
> > 1) change of operating systems (couchapps should be able to run on OSx,
> > windows, and 'linux')
> > 2) Without the need to install other 3rd party programs(node js and
> such).
> > - all the person should need to write code is a simple text editor.
> > 3) propriety code. All the code should be open source. There shouldn't
> be
> > any private ownership of code, or ideas, in any form (I think this is the
> > point Dave was trying to make in his email).
> >
>
> All of the above is just what couchapps are. I might might have
> misunderstood what you were trying to say though, maybe you can rephrase
> that.
>
>
> > Furthermore, couch apps is going to need a central website that people
> can
> > go to for information or to ask for help. So far, all the help that
> people
> > have provided to each other is too scattered amongst a variety of
> locations
> > (blogs, websites, email chains etc.), which minimizes the information's
> > effectiveness unfortunately. Centralizing all that information would
> > really benefit the community.
>
>
> I agree and this is exactly what this email thread is about. :)
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Octavian Damiean
>
> GitHub: https://github.com/mainerror
>
--
Peter Nolan
Cell - 631-398-8662
Email - PeterWNolan@gmail.com
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com>.
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Peter Nolan <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally, what i'd like to see from 'couch-apps'. is the ability for a
> layman to be able to develop websites that use couchdb as the database,
> knowing only
>
> HTML
> CSS
> Javascript
> Couchdb
>
>
> Without needing the following
> 1) change of operating systems (couchapps should be able to run on OSx,
> windows, and 'linux')
> 2) Without the need to install other 3rd party programs(node js and such).
> - all the person should need to write code is a simple text editor.
> 3) propriety code. All the code should be open source. There shouldn't be
> any private ownership of code, or ideas, in any form (I think this is the
> point Dave was trying to make in his email).
>
All of the above is just what couchapps are. I might might have
misunderstood what you were trying to say though, maybe you can rephrase
that.
> Furthermore, couch apps is going to need a central website that people can
> go to for information or to ask for help. So far, all the help that people
> have provided to each other is too scattered amongst a variety of locations
> (blogs, websites, email chains etc.), which minimizes the information's
> effectiveness unfortunately. Centralizing all that information would
> really benefit the community.
I agree and this is exactly what this email thread is about. :)
Cheers,
--
Octavian Damiean
GitHub: https://github.com/mainerror
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Peter Nolan <pe...@gmail.com>.
Hey all,
First off I'd like to say that it's absolutely wonderful that there is such
passion for couchapps these many years later. The problems that couchapp
has will only be solved if people care to solve em, which we do, so yay!
I think one of the big problems that couch-app has had is haphazardness.
To me, when couch-db and couch-apps were first coming out, it seems that
the community got excited about the prospects that couch gave them, and
everyone ran off into different directions to explore and develop their own
interests. Unfortunately, we haven't found a way to connect everyones
little bit of awesomeness well. Everyones little project either matured
into working systems (Kanso for example) while other systems have slowly
withered away.
Personally, what i'd like to see from 'couch-apps'. is the ability for a
layman to be able to develop websites that use couchdb as the database,
knowing only
HTML
CSS
Javascript
Couchdb
Without needing the following
1) change of operating systems (couchapps should be able to run on OSx,
windows, and 'linux')
2) Without the need to install other 3rd party programs(node js and such).
- all the person should need to write code is a simple text editor.
3) propriety code. All the code should be open source. There shouldn't be
any private ownership of code, or ideas, in any form (I think this is the
point Dave was trying to make in his email).
Furthermore, couch apps is going to need a central website that people can
go to for information or to ask for help. So far, all the help that people
have provided to each other is too scattered amongst a variety of locations
(blogs, websites, email chains etc.), which minimizes the information's
effectiveness unfortunately. Centralizing all that information would
really benefit the community.
Also, It'd really be nice if the website for couchapp was itself a
couchapp, so people can clone it to their own couch, and be able to show
any suggested features that they think should be implemented.
Lastly, I'd like to thank all of you all for keeping couchdb, and couchapp
alive.
-Pete
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> We expect the mailing list to be a friendly and welcoming environment
> for everyone. This is very important for the community, so please try
> to keep it that way. I will follow up with people in private if any
> further clarification is needed.
>
> Thank you,
>
> On 3 December 2013 23:46, david martin <da...@lymegreen.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > NO!
> >
> > --
> > David Martin
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Noah Slater
> https://twitter.com/nslater
>
--
Peter Nolan
Cell - 631-398-8662
Email - PeterWNolan@gmail.com
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Hi folks,
We expect the mailing list to be a friendly and welcoming environment
for everyone. This is very important for the community, so please try
to keep it that way. I will follow up with people in private if any
further clarification is needed.
Thank you,
On 3 December 2013 23:46, david martin <da...@lymegreen.co.uk> wrote:
> NO!
>
> --
> David Martin
>
--
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by david martin <da...@lymegreen.co.uk>.
NO!
--
David Martin
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by "Florian Westreicher Bakk.techn." <st...@meredrica.org>.
I have no idea what that email was about, could you clarify please?
david martin <da...@lymegreen.co.uk> wrote:
>On 02/12/13 14:16, Noah Slater wrote:
>> Thanks Benoit.
>>
>> If J Chris does not want to cede control of the domain, we might want
>> to consider using ourGoogle juice to get another website to the top
>> of the search results.
>>
>> To everyone else in the thread: I know you guys are passionate about
>> this stuff, but please try to relax a little.
>What "stuff" are you passionate about -- " an obsession with
>aesthetics"
>Its anesthetic I think you might mean!
>
>
>> I didn't like the tone
>> of a few of the emails in this thread.
>"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."
>said Groucho Marx WITHOUT HAT
>
>The concept of hats means that when a PMC member votes on project
>matters, they are casting their vote as an individual acting in the
>best interests of that PMC, /and not as an employee or representative
>of some third party/. There are also certain expectations of diversity
>within a PMC; the board may apply extra scrutiny to PMCs with low
>diversity (i.e. PMCs that are dominated by people with a common
>employer). Similarly, the ASF does not allow corporations to
>participate directly in project management, only individuals.
>
>I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.
>
>Groucho Marx
><http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/groucho_marx.html>
>
>
>Read more at
>http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/grouchomar122546.html#xvuUweqBlsRgeX9s.99
>
>I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.
>
>Groucho Marx
><http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/groucho_marx.html>
>
>
>Read more at
>http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/grouchomar122546.html#xvuUweqBlsRgeX9s.99
>http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html
>
>ALL THOSE WITH VESTED INTERESTS PLEASE STEP FORWARD and REMOVE
>YOURSELVES IMMEDIEATLY
>
>And no veiled references are required to "please Relax" and other
>rather condesending and implicating Trade mark platitudes.
>
>The board should immediatly and no MAY! "the board may apply extra
>scrutiny"
>The board must immediatly apply extra scrutiny or be seen to be failing
>in its duty to protect the Charitable gifts to the foundation from
>inappropriate manipulation by corporate placemen.
>
>Groucho will tell the Pink Panther and all hell will break loose, so
>just relax and let it happen.
>
>>
>> Thanks. :)
>>
>> On 2 December 2013 14:12, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>> just a quick update about this topic. jchris has been contacted and
>I
>>> exchanged a mail with him yesterday. Maybe some good news around
>will see.
>>> I will keep this thread updated asap.
>>>
>>> Also thanks for your help all. I propose to coordinate sometimes
>this week
>>> once we know more :)
>>>
>>> - benoit
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2 December 2013 12:51, Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com>
>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> It's hard to say for the whole community, but better to say who
>>>>>> (personally) wants to maintain and collaborate in couchapp.org
>>>>>> support. I'd like to, pretty sure that Benoit too. Who else?
>>>> me!
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Andy Wenk
>>>> Hamburg - Germany
>>>> RockIt!
>>>>
>>>> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
>>>> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>>>>
>>>> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>>>>
>>
>>
--
Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by david martin <da...@lymegreen.co.uk>.
On 02/12/13 14:16, Noah Slater wrote:
> Thanks Benoit.
>
> If J Chris does not want to cede control of the domain, we might want
> to consider using ourGoogle juice to get another website to the top
> of the search results.
>
> To everyone else in the thread: I know you guys are passionate about
> this stuff, but please try to relax a little.
What "stuff" are you passionate about -- " an obsession with aesthetics"
Its anesthetic I think you might mean!
> I didn't like the tone
> of a few of the emails in this thread.
"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."
said Groucho Marx WITHOUT HAT
The concept of hats means that when a PMC member votes on project matters, they are casting their vote as an individual acting in the best interests of that PMC, /and not as an employee or representative of some third party/. There are also certain expectations of diversity within a PMC; the board may apply extra scrutiny to PMCs with low diversity (i.e. PMCs that are dominated by people with a common employer). Similarly, the ASF does not allow corporations to participate directly in project management, only individuals.
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.
Groucho Marx <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/groucho_marx.html>
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/grouchomar122546.html#xvuUweqBlsRgeX9s.99
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.
Groucho Marx <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/groucho_marx.html>
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/grouchomar122546.html#xvuUweqBlsRgeX9s.99
http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html
ALL THOSE WITH VESTED INTERESTS PLEASE STEP FORWARD and REMOVE YOURSELVES IMMEDIEATLY
And no veiled references are required to "please Relax" and other rather condesending and implicating Trade mark platitudes.
The board should immediatly and no MAY! "the board may apply extra scrutiny"
The board must immediatly apply extra scrutiny or be seen to be failing in its duty to protect the Charitable gifts to the foundation from inappropriate manipulation by corporate placemen.
Groucho will tell the Pink Panther and all hell will break loose, so just relax and let it happen.
>
> Thanks. :)
>
> On 2 December 2013 14:12, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> just a quick update about this topic. jchris has been contacted and I
>> exchanged a mail with him yesterday. Maybe some good news around will see.
>> I will keep this thread updated asap.
>>
>> Also thanks for your help all. I propose to coordinate sometimes this week
>> once we know more :)
>>
>> - benoit
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2 December 2013 12:51, Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's hard to say for the whole community, but better to say who
>>>>> (personally) wants to maintain and collaborate in couchapp.org
>>>>> support. I'd like to, pretty sure that Benoit too. Who else?
>>> me!
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andy Wenk
>>> Hamburg - Germany
>>> RockIt!
>>>
>>> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
>>> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>>>
>>> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>>>
>
>
--
David Martin
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Dale Harvey <da...@arandomurl.com>.
So funnily enough I just got an email that couchapp.net which I had
registered was in its redemption period, I just renewed it and anyone is
free to it
On 2 December 2013 14:16, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thanks Benoit.
>
> If J Chris does not want to cede control of the domain, we might want
> to consider using our Google juice to get another website to the top
> of the search results.
>
> To everyone else in the thread: I know you guys are passionate about
> this stuff, but please try to relax a little. I didn't like the tone
> of a few of the emails in this thread.
>
> Thanks. :)
>
> On 2 December 2013 14:12, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > just a quick update about this topic. jchris has been contacted and I
> > exchanged a mail with him yesterday. Maybe some good news around will
> see.
> > I will keep this thread updated asap.
> >
> > Also thanks for your help all. I propose to coordinate sometimes this
> week
> > once we know more :)
> >
> > - benoit
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2 December 2013 12:51, Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > It's hard to say for the whole community, but better to say who
> >> > > (personally) wants to maintain and collaborate in couchapp.org
> >> > > support. I'd like to, pretty sure that Benoit too. Who else?
> >> >
> >>
> >> me!
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andy Wenk
> >> Hamburg - Germany
> >> RockIt!
> >>
> >> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> >> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
> >>
> >> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Noah Slater
> https://twitter.com/nslater
>
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Thanks Benoit.
If J Chris does not want to cede control of the domain, we might want
to consider using our Google juice to get another website to the top
of the search results.
To everyone else in the thread: I know you guys are passionate about
this stuff, but please try to relax a little. I didn't like the tone
of a few of the emails in this thread.
Thanks. :)
On 2 December 2013 14:12, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> just a quick update about this topic. jchris has been contacted and I
> exchanged a mail with him yesterday. Maybe some good news around will see.
> I will keep this thread updated asap.
>
> Also thanks for your help all. I propose to coordinate sometimes this week
> once we know more :)
>
> - benoit
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
>
>> On 2 December 2013 12:51, Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > It's hard to say for the whole community, but better to say who
>> > > (personally) wants to maintain and collaborate in couchapp.org
>> > > support. I'd like to, pretty sure that Benoit too. Who else?
>> >
>>
>> me!
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> --
>> Andy Wenk
>> Hamburg - Germany
>> RockIt!
>>
>> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
>> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>>
>> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>>
--
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
just a quick update about this topic. jchris has been contacted and I
exchanged a mail with him yesterday. Maybe some good news around will see.
I will keep this thread updated asap.
Also thanks for your help all. I propose to coordinate sometimes this week
once we know more :)
- benoit
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> On 2 December 2013 12:51, Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com> wrote:
>
> > > It's hard to say for the whole community, but better to say who
> > > (personally) wants to maintain and collaborate in couchapp.org
> > > support. I'd like to, pretty sure that Benoit too. Who else?
> >
>
> me!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
On 2 December 2013 12:51, Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com> wrote:
> > It's hard to say for the whole community, but better to say who
> > (personally) wants to maintain and collaborate in couchapp.org
> > support. I'd like to, pretty sure that Benoit too. Who else?
>
me!
Cheers
Andy
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com>.
I'd volunteer as well Alex.
On Dec 2, 2013 12:01 PM, "Alexander Shorin" <kx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> > - do we (the CouchDB community) want to maintain the contents? Regardless
> > if it is "part" of CouchDB or not (this is a never-ending discussion
> imho)
>
> It's hard to say for the whole community, but better to say who
> (personally) wants to maintain and collaborate in couchapp.org
> support. I'd like to, pretty sure that Benoit too. Who else?
>
> > - who will start to speak with JChris about the domain?
>
> I'm pretty sure that Benoit had already contacted with him, but let us
> know the status.
>
> > - where do we want to host the domain or contents?
>
> Afaik couchapp.org is a couchapp itself and hosts somewhere on
> IrisCouch. Create a replica of it on new instance shouldn't be a
> problem.
>
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
>
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> - do we (the CouchDB community) want to maintain the contents? Regardless
> if it is "part" of CouchDB or not (this is a never-ending discussion imho)
It's hard to say for the whole community, but better to say who
(personally) wants to maintain and collaborate in couchapp.org
support. I'd like to, pretty sure that Benoit too. Who else?
> - who will start to speak with JChris about the domain?
I'm pretty sure that Benoit had already contacted with him, but let us
know the status.
> - where do we want to host the domain or contents?
Afaik couchapp.org is a couchapp itself and hosts somewhere on
IrisCouch. Create a replica of it on new instance shouldn't be a
problem.
--
,,,^..^,,,
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
why don't we stop the discussion here and think about how couchapp.org or
at least the contents can be maintained further? There are only some points
to clarify:
- do we (the CouchDB community) want to maintain the contents? Regardless
if it is "part" of CouchDB or not (this is a never-ending discussion imho)
- who will start to speak with JChris about the domain?
- where do we want to host the domain or contents?
I have a personal interest to keep couchapp.org and / or it's contents
running because that was my first contact with CouchDB, Benoit and JChris.
I don't want to see the awesome work die!
Cheers
Andy
On 2 December 2013 02:50, Vivek Pathak <vp...@orgmeta.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I agree quite a bit about the coucapp. Hence couldnt help but comment.
>
> Couchapp does seem to have quite a few rough corners feel to it - when
> compared to the soundness of couchdb as a whole (even without bigcouch etc).
>
> I have been using a self written tool to push view/list/show code to
> couchdb from using a makefile for my project. A sample line from the
> makefile is as follows:
>
> belongs_view:
> update_field.py -u $(COUCH) $(DBNAME) _design/ids views.belongs.map
> belongs.js
>
> This pushes belongs.js to key db["_design/ids"].views.belongs.map ,
> recursively creating any intermediate json objects as needed.
>
> It has worked well for me because I get to edit my javascript code in any
> editor. And unlike couchapp, I do not need to install a python package
> (particularly one which does not seem to have heavy community support).
>
> The use case for couchapp is mentioned as sharing code between views (
> http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/HTTP_view_API#Sharing_Code_Between_Views). At the cost of adding shared code into common js modules explicitly, I
> get the convenience of "what you see is what you get" - unlike the
> inclusion of code through JS comments in couchapp.
>
> If the overall idea of having a standalone tool is attractive, I can
> surely improve it a bit (eg: usage line can improve, etc) and share more
> widely. It anyway was created under an apache 2 licence.
>
> Thanks
> Vivek
>
>
>
>
> On 11/30/13, 10:33 PM, Alexander Shorin wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:20 AM, Russell Branca <ch...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In its current form, couchapp.org is a relic that has been mostly
>>> abandoned
>>> and is not maintainable by the community. I strongly feel we should move
>>> the couchapp documentation into official documentation. I see two
>>> relevant
>>> points of interest in this discussion. First is the notion of couchapps
>>> as
>>> the self contained application platform that utilizes show/list
>>> functions,
>>> and whether these should be included in CouchDB. I don't think this is
>>> the
>>> important issue at hand.
>>>
>>> The bigger issue is that the defacto method of defining design documents
>>> is
>>> to use one of the many "couchapp" tools, and the only place this is
>>> documented as a whole is couchapp.org. This is a disservice to the
>>> community, and one that needs to be resolved. This is a constant source
>>> of
>>> confusion to new users who quickly realize the futility of defining
>>> design
>>> docs in the browser, and get lost when told "just use a couchapp", and
>>> then
>>> they inevitably end up clicking on the top google result for "couchapp",
>>> couchapp.org. We need to have this properly documented in the official
>>> documentation so that the process is fully defined for new users.
>>>
>>> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
>>> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible, or to
>>> officially bless a tool like Erica. While I do want to see Fauxton
>>> provide
>>> powerful editors for all the different function types, I don't think this
>>> is sufficient as people typically want to keep their design docs raw code
>>> under SCM. Whatever approach is taken, I think the number one priority
>>> here
>>> is ensuring proper documentation explaining to users best practices for
>>> defining and maintaining design docs.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Russell
>>>
>> +1 and actually I'm only waiting for rcouch merge and having erica as
>> builtin tool. There is already big place to land all the stuff in
>> source code tree and even named also as "couchapp" since it provides
>> huge potential for more interesting and rich content rather than just
>> "ddoc" or similar.
>>
>> --
>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>
>
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Vivek Pathak <vp...@orgmeta.com>.
Hi
I agree quite a bit about the coucapp. Hence couldnt help but comment.
Couchapp does seem to have quite a few rough corners feel to it - when
compared to the soundness of couchdb as a whole (even without bigcouch
etc).
I have been using a self written tool to push view/list/show code to
couchdb from using a makefile for my project. A sample line from the
makefile is as follows:
belongs_view:
update_field.py -u $(COUCH) $(DBNAME) _design/ids views.belongs.map
belongs.js
This pushes belongs.js to key db["_design/ids"].views.belongs.map ,
recursively creating any intermediate json objects as needed.
It has worked well for me because I get to edit my javascript code in
any editor. And unlike couchapp, I do not need to install a python
package (particularly one which does not seem to have heavy community
support).
The use case for couchapp is mentioned as sharing code between views (
http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/HTTP_view_API#Sharing_Code_Between_Views
). At the cost of adding shared code into common js modules
explicitly, I get the convenience of "what you see is what you get" -
unlike the inclusion of code through JS comments in couchapp.
If the overall idea of having a standalone tool is attractive, I can
surely improve it a bit (eg: usage line can improve, etc) and share
more widely. It anyway was created under an apache 2 licence.
Thanks
Vivek
On 11/30/13, 10:33 PM, Alexander Shorin wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:20 AM, Russell Branca <ch...@apache.org> wrote:
>> In its current form, couchapp.org is a relic that has been mostly abandoned
>> and is not maintainable by the community. I strongly feel we should move
>> the couchapp documentation into official documentation. I see two relevant
>> points of interest in this discussion. First is the notion of couchapps as
>> the self contained application platform that utilizes show/list functions,
>> and whether these should be included in CouchDB. I don't think this is the
>> important issue at hand.
>>
>> The bigger issue is that the defacto method of defining design documents is
>> to use one of the many "couchapp" tools, and the only place this is
>> documented as a whole is couchapp.org. This is a disservice to the
>> community, and one that needs to be resolved. This is a constant source of
>> confusion to new users who quickly realize the futility of defining design
>> docs in the browser, and get lost when told "just use a couchapp", and then
>> they inevitably end up clicking on the top google result for "couchapp",
>> couchapp.org. We need to have this properly documented in the official
>> documentation so that the process is fully defined for new users.
>>
>> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
>> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible, or to
>> officially bless a tool like Erica. While I do want to see Fauxton provide
>> powerful editors for all the different function types, I don't think this
>> is sufficient as people typically want to keep their design docs raw code
>> under SCM. Whatever approach is taken, I think the number one priority here
>> is ensuring proper documentation explaining to users best practices for
>> defining and maintaining design docs.
>>
>>
>> -Russell
> +1 and actually I'm only waiting for rcouch merge and having erica as
> builtin tool. There is already big place to land all the stuff in
> source code tree and even named also as "couchapp" since it provides
> huge potential for more interesting and rich content rather than just
> "ddoc" or similar.
>
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:20 AM, Russell Branca <ch...@apache.org> wrote:
> In its current form, couchapp.org is a relic that has been mostly abandoned
> and is not maintainable by the community. I strongly feel we should move
> the couchapp documentation into official documentation. I see two relevant
> points of interest in this discussion. First is the notion of couchapps as
> the self contained application platform that utilizes show/list functions,
> and whether these should be included in CouchDB. I don't think this is the
> important issue at hand.
>
> The bigger issue is that the defacto method of defining design documents is
> to use one of the many "couchapp" tools, and the only place this is
> documented as a whole is couchapp.org. This is a disservice to the
> community, and one that needs to be resolved. This is a constant source of
> confusion to new users who quickly realize the futility of defining design
> docs in the browser, and get lost when told "just use a couchapp", and then
> they inevitably end up clicking on the top google result for "couchapp",
> couchapp.org. We need to have this properly documented in the official
> documentation so that the process is fully defined for new users.
>
> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible, or to
> officially bless a tool like Erica. While I do want to see Fauxton provide
> powerful editors for all the different function types, I don't think this
> is sufficient as people typically want to keep their design docs raw code
> under SCM. Whatever approach is taken, I think the number one priority here
> is ensuring proper documentation explaining to users best practices for
> defining and maintaining design docs.
>
>
> -Russell
+1 and actually I'm only waiting for rcouch merge and having erica as
builtin tool. There is already big place to land all the stuff in
source code tree and even named also as "couchapp" since it provides
huge potential for more interesting and rich content rather than just
"ddoc" or similar.
--
,,,^..^,,,
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 1:20 AM, Russell Branca <ch...@apache.org>wrote:
> In its current form, couchapp.org is a relic that has been mostly
> abandoned
> and is not maintainable by the community. I strongly feel we should move
> the couchapp documentation into official documentation. I see two relevant
> points of interest in this discussion. First is the notion of couchapps as
> the self contained application platform that utilizes show/list functions,
> and whether these should be included in CouchDB. I don't think this is the
> important issue at hand.
>
> The bigger issue is that the defacto method of defining design documents is
> to use one of the many "couchapp" tools, and the only place this is
> documented as a whole is couchapp.org. This is a disservice to the
> community, and one that needs to be resolved. This is a constant source of
> confusion to new users who quickly realize the futility of defining design
> docs in the browser, and get lost when told "just use a couchapp", and then
> they inevitably end up clicking on the top google result for "couchapp",
> couchapp.org. We need to have this properly documented in the official
> documentation so that the process is fully defined for new users.
>
> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible, or to
> officially bless a tool like Erica. While I do want to see Fauxton provide
> powerful editors for all the different function types, I don't think this
> is sufficient as people typically want to keep their design docs raw code
> under SCM. Whatever approach is taken, I think the number one priority here
> is ensuring proper documentation explaining to users best practices for
> defining and maintaining design docs.
>
>
>
> +1
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Johannes Jörg Schmidt <sc...@netzmerk.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 01.12.2013 01:20, Russell Branca wrote:
> In its current form, couchapp.org is a relic that has been mostly
> abandoned and is not maintainable by the community. I strongly feel
> we should move the couchapp documentation into official
> documentation. I see two relevant points of interest in this
> discussion. First is the notion of couchapps as the self contained
> application platform that utilizes show/list functions, and whether
> these should be included in CouchDB. I don't think this is the
> important issue at hand.
>
> The bigger issue is that the defacto method of defining design
> documents is to use one of the many "couchapp" tools, and the only
> place this is documented as a whole is couchapp.org. This is a
> disservice to the community, and one that needs to be resolved.
> This is a constant source of confusion to new users who quickly
> realize the futility of defining design docs in the browser, and
> get lost when told "just use a couchapp", and then they inevitably
> end up clicking on the top google result for "couchapp",
> couchapp.org. We need to have this properly documented in the
> official documentation so that the process is fully defined for new
> users.
>
> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible, or
> to officially bless a tool like Erica. While I do want to see
> Fauxton provide powerful editors for all the different function
> types, I don't think this is sufficient as people typically want to
> keep their design docs raw code under SCM. Whatever approach is
> taken, I think the number one priority here is ensuring proper
> documentation explaining to users best practices for defining and
> maintaining design docs.
+1
And I must say that it would be great, especially for CouchDB
beginners, to have erica shipped together with CouchDB as a builtin
tool. This would lead to a situation where the directory layout is
etablished and standardized, via the 'reference implementation' erica.
Then you can refer to the erica tool inside the documentation which
will fill a big gap, telling the user how to get their (view, rewrite,
validate_doc_update etc....) code into the database.
Johannes
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Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Filippo Fadda <fi...@programmazione.it>.
I'm not a neophyte, I have just a different opinion of yours. Republicans and democrats don't share same opinions, and even inside a group you can find people with different opinions and you have to respect them, always. This is called democracy.
I don't decide the goals myself, but I can express my thoughts, my vision. In my vision CouchDB is a database, not an application server. Live with that.
-Filippo
> The reason for my diplomatic controlled aggression ( or rage as you termed it in a rather cheeky way)
> on this "Elephant in the room" subject is because
> "those that refuse to learn the lessons of history are condemmed to repeat the mistakes ad infinitum"
> The essence of responsible open source is to ensure that neophyte users and persons who do not know any better
> are not trapped or even locked-in to endless fruitless toil pushing ordure up hills with pointed sticks.
> Everyone is free to do as they wish in this world, unless what they do is promoting a course of action which harms others.
> People Hate Perl (or PHP or Perl Hypertext Preprocessor) is hardly a platform for a blind man to be standing upon to make claims of knowing what the Elephant is.
> Every-one has different opinions on almost everything including Elephants
> "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant"
> Here is a diplomatic history lesson that affected many people in a far off land.
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by david martin <da...@lymegreen.co.uk>.
On 01/12/13 00:20, Russell Branca wrote:
> In its current form, couchapp.org is a relic that has been mostly abandoned
> and is not maintainable by the community. I strongly feel we should move
> the couchapp documentation into official documentation. I see two relevant
> points of interest in this discussion. First is the notion of couchapps as
> the self contained application platform that utilizes show/list functions,
> and whether these should be included in CouchDB. I don't think this is the
> important issue at hand.
>
> The bigger issue is that the defacto method of defining design documents is
> to use one of the many "couchapp" tools, and the only place this is
> documented as a whole is couchapp.org. This is a disservice to the
> community, and one that needs to be resolved. This is a constant source of
> confusion to new users who quickly realize the futility of defining design
> docs in the browser, and get lost when told "just use a couchapp", and then
> they inevitably end up clicking on the top google result for "couchapp",
> couchapp.org. We need to have this properly documented in the official
> documentation so that the process is fully defined for new users.
>
> A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
> definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible, or to
> officially bless a tool like Erica. While I do want to see Fauxton provide
> powerful editors for all the different function types, I don't think this
> is sufficient as people typically want to keep their design docs raw code
> under SCM. Whatever approach is taken, I think the number one priority here
> is ensuring proper documentation explaining to users best practices for
> defining and maintaining design docs.
>
>
> -Russell
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Filippo Fadda <
> filippo.fadda@programmazione.it> wrote:
>
>> List and show are not stored procedure. We already discussed that Benoit.
>>
>> http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/Formatting_with_Show_and_List
>>
>> From the documentation: "Show and list functions are side effect free and
>> idempotent. They can not make additional HTTP requests against CouchDB.
>> Their purpose is to render JSON documents in other formats."
>>
>> Apples are not pears. I'm not buying it, stop selling list and show like
>> stored proc. A stored procedure, in general, is not side effect free or
>> idempotent.
>>
>>> If you just want a database then any KV is enough for your purpose. If
>> now
>>> you want a DBMS which at least I want, then you probably want a way to
>>> store procedures and such to adapt the query language to your needs.
>> Guess,
>>> what is the purpose of lists and shows?
>> Not in the way they are. To me, actually list and show are useless. I'm
>> sorry, this is what I think. Can we just move on?
>>
>> -Filippo
The reason for my diplomatic controlled aggression ( or rage as you termed it in a rather cheeky way)
on this "Elephant in the room" subject is because
"those that refuse to learn the lessons of history are condemmed to repeat the mistakes ad infinitum"
The essence of responsible open source is to ensure that neophyte users and persons who do not know any better
are not trapped or even locked-in to endless fruitless toil pushing ordure up hills with pointed sticks.
Everyone is free to do as they wish in this world, unless what they do is promoting a course of action which harms others.
People Hate Perl (or PHP or Perl Hypertext Preprocessor) is hardly a platform for a blind man to be standing upon to make claims of knowing what the Elephant is.
Every-one has different opinions on almost everything including Elephants
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant"
Here is a diplomatic history lesson that affected many people in a far off land.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Sending HTML5 forms from iThoughtsHD "Rant on Couchapps"
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:05:30 +0100
From: david martin <da...@lymegreen.co.uk>
To: Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl>
CC: Gregory Kelleher <gr...@kelleher.cc>, Saptarshi Purkayastha <su...@gmail.com>, Matt Adams <ma...@radicaldynamic.com>, SurajitNundy <nu...@gmail.com>, Daniel Pepper <da...@gmail.com>, SharathHangal <sh...@gmail.com>, Roger Friedman <rd...@cdc.gov>
On 21/10/11 07:53, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 04:23, Gregory Kelleher<gr...@kelleher.cc> wrote:
>> If you search the web for info on your own, you'll want to first be clear about the terminology. In particular, "CouchDB" is the name of a top-level Apache Foundation project and of the non-SQL DBMS it distributes as its open source product. A search on that term should reveal broad activity, volunteer and commercial development, professional training, and both free and subscription hosting services.
>>
>> In addition to being a JSON document DBMS, CouchDB can function out of the box as a Web applications server and deployment server. The first O'Reilly book on CouchDB coined the term "couchapp" as a name for the distinctive 2-tier Web applications that can be creates with the new technology. They also named their utility functions used to create these web apps "couchapp".
>>
>> There are now several competing utility functions used by many to help with development of CouchApps, and a few of them are named the same, creating some confusion. It seems you've been investigating one of these scripts. Most of them are pretty simple, which accounts for the low commit rate.
> I'm aware of all this, though I admit to not having tracked all the
> different utilties that can help with building couchapps (the 2-tier
> apps). Still, do you know of any larger projects that are built
> according to the 2-tier architecture? It seems to me most are more in
> the proof-of-concept, play-thing, experimental kind of way. I used to
> track Mozilla's Raindrop, which was built as a couchapp, but it was
> discarded at the experimental stage because they thought CouchDB was a
> bad fit for their data model.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
>
>
Current reasonably Informed opinion in Couchdb user list favours 2.5-tier architecture
with memory resident njinx load balancing and proxying multiple couchdb databases.
Some aspects of the total need can be catered for by simple couchdb hosted client side
so called couchapps. This is the preferred solution for stateless applications such as
viewing data from a database or Create Update and Delete.
Couchdb is based strictly on HTTP which is a stateless protocol,
So ipso facto all Couchdb so called couchapps are strictly stateless and thus can never form
the whole of a so called "larger project". They should however be used whenever possible
and the fact that they cannot be used in certain circumstances alerts designers to the
fact that they are implicitly assuming a state in their design and that has implications
that are often ignored because it is hidden in the tiers they don't even know exist.
If you do have massive statefull applications, then there is a very comprehensive
layer for this very purpose for example see Couchbase Server 2.0 which uses Membase
and Memcached. In most cases this would be overkill, and changes feeds to user modules
of CouchDb can provide a useful 0.5 adjunct to the strict 2-tier model.
Finally on the subject of couchapp can do this and couchapps cannot do that and that couchapps
activity is low, may I say that couchapp was and is the first helper framework to create
applications run on clients and served from CouchDB. Couchapp is a Python based helper application.
Couchapp (the Python helper application) is now on its last release and will be replaced by
Erica which is native Erlang and therefor removes dependancy for Python. (Erlang is always present for CouchDB).
Couchapps run on a client and are served by CouchDB.
This is a generic term to encompass applications that can use any language known to the browser in their
implementation, (including Javascript produced by Google Closure Templates),
or indeed anything that you can run client side in a browser.
In conclusion, to attribute facts to couchapps you must attribute them to
the browser languages, the DOM, CSS or html or xhtml or any client technology or so called framework that forms the HTTP web.
Yours sincerely,
David Martin
--
David Martin
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Russell Branca <ch...@apache.org>.
In its current form, couchapp.org is a relic that has been mostly abandoned
and is not maintainable by the community. I strongly feel we should move
the couchapp documentation into official documentation. I see two relevant
points of interest in this discussion. First is the notion of couchapps as
the self contained application platform that utilizes show/list functions,
and whether these should be included in CouchDB. I don't think this is the
important issue at hand.
The bigger issue is that the defacto method of defining design documents is
to use one of the many "couchapp" tools, and the only place this is
documented as a whole is couchapp.org. This is a disservice to the
community, and one that needs to be resolved. This is a constant source of
confusion to new users who quickly realize the futility of defining design
docs in the browser, and get lost when told "just use a couchapp", and then
they inevitably end up clicking on the top google result for "couchapp",
couchapp.org. We need to have this properly documented in the official
documentation so that the process is fully defined for new users.
A couple of options for approach would be to formalize the folder
definition of a couchapp and list tools known to be compatible, or to
officially bless a tool like Erica. While I do want to see Fauxton provide
powerful editors for all the different function types, I don't think this
is sufficient as people typically want to keep their design docs raw code
under SCM. Whatever approach is taken, I think the number one priority here
is ensuring proper documentation explaining to users best practices for
defining and maintaining design docs.
-Russell
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Filippo Fadda <
filippo.fadda@programmazione.it> wrote:
> List and show are not stored procedure. We already discussed that Benoit.
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/Formatting_with_Show_and_List
>
> From the documentation: "Show and list functions are side effect free and
> idempotent. They can not make additional HTTP requests against CouchDB.
> Their purpose is to render JSON documents in other formats."
>
> Apples are not pears. I'm not buying it, stop selling list and show like
> stored proc. A stored procedure, in general, is not side effect free or
> idempotent.
>
> > If you just want a database then any KV is enough for your purpose. If
> now
> > you want a DBMS which at least I want, then you probably want a way to
> > store procedures and such to adapt the query language to your needs.
> Guess,
> > what is the purpose of lists and shows?
>
> Not in the way they are. To me, actually list and show are useless. I'm
> sorry, this is what I think. Can we just move on?
>
> -Filippo
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Filippo Fadda <fi...@programmazione.it>.
List and show are not stored procedure. We already discussed that Benoit.
http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/Formatting_with_Show_and_List
From the documentation: "Show and list functions are side effect free and idempotent. They can not make additional HTTP requests against CouchDB. Their purpose is to render JSON documents in other formats."
Apples are not pears. I'm not buying it, stop selling list and show like stored proc. A stored procedure, in general, is not side effect free or idempotent.
> If you just want a database then any KV is enough for your purpose. If now
> you want a DBMS which at least I want, then you probably want a way to
> store procedures and such to adapt the query language to your needs. Guess,
> what is the purpose of lists and shows?
Not in the way they are. To me, actually list and show are useless. I'm sorry, this is what I think. Can we just move on?
-Filippo
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Filippo Fadda <
filippo.fadda@programmazione.it> wrote:
> Alexander,
>
> PgREST is not PostgreSQL anyway, it's a project that uses PostgreSQL and I
> think CouchApp should be the same, maybe a plugin but not a core feature.
>
But PgRest is only possible if you can store procudure in postgres.
Procedure/functions/list/shows see why you can't simply say that.
>
> Which are the CouchDB goals? The goals are determined at blastoff time.
> You must ensure the goals are reasonable, attainable, simply stated,
> worthwhile, and carry and measurement, so that you can test the delivered
> product to ensure that it satisfies the goal. If the goal does not have
> these properties, then history demonstrates that it is unlikely the project
> will deliver anything useful.
>
> The goal is used throughout the requirements gathering activity. Each of
> the requirements that you gather must contribute, even if indirectly, to
> the goal. Requirements that don't contribute are not relevant, and should
> be discarded. Purpose of CouchDB is to store data, delivering applications,
> or both? Is the goal to create a database, an application server or both?
>
You again misunderstood what is a couchapp. couchapps were never only used
to deliver an html apps.
>
> CouchDB is an open source project, based on the community efforts. There
> is probably someone in charge, right? Who is in charge should discuss with
> the other stakeholders the goals of the product and drive the product
> construction to reach the goals. A product without a goal is not a product,
> it's just a bunch of lines of code. It's really cool that CouchDB can make
> a coffee because someone coded the ability in it, but I'm not interested in
> a coffee machine, I want a database.
>
> This project needs a goal. CouchApp can be part of it or not, I'm not the
> one who decides, but I think it shouldn't. You all know that I'm not the
> only one who thinks CouchDB should be just a cool database, as I know many
> of you, instead, like the idea of an application server. It might be a
> database, an application server or both, but at this point I think it's
> important to decide its goals.
>
If you just want a database then any KV is enough for your purpose. If now
you want a DBMS which at least I want, then you probably want a way to
store procedures and such to adapt the query language to your needs. Guess,
what is the purpose of lists and shows?
- benoit
>
> -Filippo
>
> On Nov 30, 2013, at 7:42 PM, Alexander Shorin wrote:
> > Suddenly, it isn't just a database since 0.9 release when design
> > functions like show, list and update was introduced. Couchapp isn't a
> > feature or a part of CouchDB - it's not something physical that could
> > be removed. It's the way of using CouchDB features to create real rich
> > applications that are hosted directly by CouchDB and used data of the
> > related database. This way is based on design functions
> > (show/list/update/validate_doc_update), views, replication, HTTP API.
> > You may use these features to create couchapps, you may use this
> > features in standalone, you may don't, but it's still same CouchDB.
> >
> > If you aware, the same CouchApp concept (self-hosted application on
> > top of database) is actively tried to be implemented on top of
> > PostgreSQL:
> > http://pgre.st/
> >
> > this isn't first attempt, but the most recent and more interested. If
> > people creates such stuff, may be there is really lack of application
> > server features in popular databases that they trying to fill?
> > Hopefully, CouchDB has such long ago, out of the box and for any
> > languages you'd like to use.
> >
> > --
> > ,,,^..^,,,
>
>
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Filippo Fadda <fi...@programmazione.it>.
Alexander,
PgREST is not PostgreSQL anyway, it's a project that uses PostgreSQL and I think CouchApp should be the same, maybe a plugin but not a core feature.
Which are the CouchDB goals? The goals are determined at blastoff time. You must ensure the goals are reasonable, attainable, simply stated, worthwhile, and carry and measurement, so that you can test the delivered product to ensure that it satisfies the goal. If the goal does not have these properties, then history demonstrates that it is unlikely the project will deliver anything useful.
The goal is used throughout the requirements gathering activity. Each of the requirements that you gather must contribute, even if indirectly, to the goal. Requirements that don't contribute are not relevant, and should be discarded. Purpose of CouchDB is to store data, delivering applications, or both? Is the goal to create a database, an application server or both?
CouchDB is an open source project, based on the community efforts. There is probably someone in charge, right? Who is in charge should discuss with the other stakeholders the goals of the product and drive the product construction to reach the goals. A product without a goal is not a product, it's just a bunch of lines of code. It's really cool that CouchDB can make a coffee because someone coded the ability in it, but I'm not interested in a coffee machine, I want a database.
This project needs a goal. CouchApp can be part of it or not, I'm not the one who decides, but I think it shouldn't. You all know that I'm not the only one who thinks CouchDB should be just a cool database, as I know many of you, instead, like the idea of an application server. It might be a database, an application server or both, but at this point I think it's important to decide its goals.
-Filippo
On Nov 30, 2013, at 7:42 PM, Alexander Shorin wrote:
> Suddenly, it isn't just a database since 0.9 release when design
> functions like show, list and update was introduced. Couchapp isn't a
> feature or a part of CouchDB - it's not something physical that could
> be removed. It's the way of using CouchDB features to create real rich
> applications that are hosted directly by CouchDB and used data of the
> related database. This way is based on design functions
> (show/list/update/validate_doc_update), views, replication, HTTP API.
> You may use these features to create couchapps, you may use this
> features in standalone, you may don't, but it's still same CouchDB.
>
> If you aware, the same CouchApp concept (self-hosted application on
> top of database) is actively tried to be implemented on top of
> PostgreSQL:
> http://pgre.st/
>
> this isn't first attempt, but the most recent and more interested. If
> people creates such stuff, may be there is really lack of application
> server features in popular databases that they trying to fill?
> Hopefully, CouchDB has such long ago, out of the box and for any
> languages you'd like to use.
>
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Filippo Fadda
<fi...@programmazione.it> wrote:
> CouchDB is a database. And IMHO couch apps are something that shouldn't be part of the CouchDB core. Benoit asked a very simple question and I gave my opinion. I think who matters should take a position on the subject because I can understand Benoit frustration about the current status of couchapp.org. CouchApp could be the best piece of software in the world but my personal vision of CouchDB doesn't include it, because I see CouchDB as a database and not an application server.
Suddenly, it isn't just a database since 0.9 release when design
functions like show, list and update was introduced. Couchapp isn't a
feature or a part of CouchDB - it's not something physical that could
be removed. It's the way of using CouchDB features to create real rich
applications that are hosted directly by CouchDB and used data of the
related database. This way is based on design functions
(show/list/update/validate_doc_update), views, replication, HTTP API.
You may use these features to create couchapps, you may use this
features in standalone, you may don't, but it's still same CouchDB.
If you aware, the same CouchApp concept (self-hosted application on
top of database) is actively tried to be implemented on top of
PostgreSQL:
http://pgre.st/
this isn't first attempt, but the most recent and more interested. If
people creates such stuff, may be there is really lack of application
server features in popular databases that they trying to fill?
Hopefully, CouchDB has such long ago, out of the box and for any
languages you'd like to use.
--
,,,^..^,,,
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Filippo Fadda <fi...@programmazione.it>.
David,
for me, and I speak just for myself, CouchDB is a database. And IMHO couch apps are something that shouldn't be part of the CouchDB core. Benoit asked a very simple question and I gave my opinion. I think who matters should take a position on the subject because I can understand Benoit frustration about the current status of couchapp.org. CouchApp could be the best piece of software in the world but my personal vision of CouchDB doesn't include it, because I see CouchDB as a database and not an application server. You are not gonna change my mind.
Apache CouchDB needs a direction. I'm not the one who decide the way to go, but I'm free to provide my opinion, I hope. And I think everyone should take a position, since Benoit asked, using his own words to "clarify this situation and start a real discussion about it and at the end take a decision". And since Benoit is a veteran with established relations among the community, it's legit that someone is not comfortable to go "against" him. I'm just asking an effort for the good, so a decision can be taken.
I don't like your rage, it's totally out of control. Relax.
-Filippo
On Nov 30, 2013, at 6:00 PM, david martin wrote:
> Many people cut their teeth on couchapp (not couchapps), implemented by Benoit.
>
> Many people learned the rudiments of CouchDB and probed the limitations of many things using the Python based couchapp interface .
>
> Your views are misinformed and confused by the many imitators of the original concept.
>
> The plethora of half baked imitators and copiers of the original are the ones creating custom perversions in
>
> "my fav language of the day fanboi acolyte style".
>
> No one knows the difference between a concept and implementation for last 4 years.
>
> Benoit has even re-written in Erlang (because Python2-Python3 third party mess) to drive the point home as Erica can be guaranteed to be system and language agnostic as,
> wake up, the core language which is always there is Erlang.
>
> Not JS not Node not lua, not C++ not C# not coffeescript not elixir but Erlang/OTP!
>
> Maybe you should have your own feelings hurt and I certainly will do that if you do not pull your head in!
>
> What do you know about what is and is not core to this matter without waiting for a full and open discussion?
>
> The contributer list is high for CouchDB with nobody leaving, If persons cannot be bothered to answer I suggest persons tender
> their resignations and stop allowing spammers to further confuse users.
>
> No response may be a sign of Arterial Sclerosis or death or /commercial conflict of interest/ , or not knowing where anything is hosted or FUD creators having fun or you confusing them with more half baked attitudes .
>
> To say
>
> "I see other members are avoiding your question because they don't want take a position is a bit premature" don't you think?
>
> Especially in light of the forthcoming long planned major developments.
>
> I think Jan is too polite and too nice a guy and in too public a position to be other than a superb diplomat and technology implementor and to do what I would do forthwith, which is to put the cat among the pigeons and cull the ones that do not move fast enough (pigeons that is).
>
>
> totally random biginteger davidoccam a.k.a.
>
> --
> David Martin
>
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by david martin <da...@lymegreen.co.uk>.
On 30/11/13 15:41, Filippo Fadda wrote:
> maybe hurt your feelings?
Many people cut their teeth on couchapp (not couchapps), implemented by Benoit.
Many people learned the rudiments of CouchDB and probed the limitations of many things using the Python based couchapp interface .
Your views are misinformed and confused by the many imitators of the original concept.
The plethora of half baked imitators and copiers of the original are the ones creating custom perversions in
"my fav language of the day fanboi acolyte style".
No one knows the difference between a concept and implementation for last 4 years.
Benoit has even re-written in Erlang (because Python2-Python3 third party mess) to drive the point home as Erica can be guaranteed to be system and language agnostic as,
wake up, the core language which is always there is Erlang.
Not JS not Node not lua, not C++ not C# not coffeescript not elixir but Erlang/OTP!
Maybe you should have your own feelings hurt and I certainly will do that if you do not pull your head in!
What do you know about what is and is not core to this matter without waiting for a full and open discussion?
The contributer list is high for CouchDB with nobody leaving, If persons cannot be bothered to answer I suggest persons tender
their resignations and stop allowing spammers to further confuse users.
No response may be a sign of Arterial Sclerosis or death or /commercial conflict of interest/ , or not knowing where anything is hosted or FUD creators having fun or you confusing them with more half baked attitudes .
To say
"I see other members are avoiding your question because they don't want take a position is a bit premature" don't you think?
Especially in light of the forthcoming long planned major developments.
I think Jan is too polite and too nice a guy and in too public a position to be other than a superb diplomat and technology implementor and to do what I would do forthwith, which is to put the cat among the pigeons and cull the ones that do not move fast enough (pigeons that is).
totally random biginteger davidoccam a.k.a.
--
David Martin
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Filippo Fadda <fi...@programmazione.it>.
I can understand your frustration but I see other members are avoiding your question because they don't want take a position (or maybe hurt your feelings?). Dirkjan is the only one has taken a position and, personally, I agree with him, but you already know that since we discussed, partially, the topic days ago in another thread talking about list and show.
Anyway, if you decide (I mean you all) that the couch apps are an integral CouchDB part, I think they should be a topic of the CouchDB main site and not live in a separate domain. Else, if you consider couch apps as an external resource, like any other projects made on top of CouchDB, I don't see any responsibility of yours.
I suggest to take a vote on it.
-Filippo
On Nov 30, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
> Enough is enough,
>
> I am starting to be really frustrated this situation. Not having any
> control on the couchapp.org starts to be really annoying. It is now 1 week
> since the couchapp.org website is spammed without any possibility to revert
> the content or whatever.
>
> I will yet again contact Jchris and Jason about it, and hopefully one of
> them will answer and it will be solved next week. But we can’t continue
> like this. I’m frustrated, some users are frustrated etc. Especially since
> some are ready to start a real documentation. So I would like to clear the
> situation this time.
>
> If we considers the couchapps concept as a part of the couchdb project,
> then we should:
>
> - either start some action
>
> - or find a new name and new way to document the concept
>
> If some of you consider that we should just ditch the couchapps concept
> from the couchdb and make couchdb another database, then we should also
> clarify this situation and start a real discussion about it and at the end
> take a decision
>
> So let's solve that,
>
> - benoit
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
+1
couchapp is quite known brand of not the one, but group of CouchDB
features. Even if couchapp.org isn't be a part of project, if it
doesn't works well - it makes CouchDB not bad, but also not good
reputation. People has a bit different measurement that based on
feelings (is it informative, works well, looks pretty etc.), has
directly associations (if A is about B features, so A explicitly
relates to B, especially if it's popular resource) and they mostly
don't care about organization structure.
Would like to help with his support if needed.
--
,,,^..^,,,
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com> wrote:
> +1 even if we decide that the concept shouldn't be part of the core project
> we should make sure that it is maintained well since it represents a
> community effort and w certainly don't want our community to look broken.
> On Nov 30, 2013 12:46 PM, "Jan Lehnardt" <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 30 Nov 2013, at 11:34 , Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> If we considers the couchapps concept as a part of the couchdb project,
>> >> then we should:
>> >>
>> >> - either start some action
>> >>
>> >> - or find a new name and new way to document the concept
>> >>
>> >> If some of you consider that we should just ditch the couchapps concept
>> >> from the couchdb and make couchdb another database, then we should also
>> >> clarify this situation and start a real discussion about it and at the
>> end
>> >> take a decision
>> >
>> > IMO the CouchApps concept should not be a part of the CouchDB project,
>> > even though it is obviously related to it. Having too wide a focus
>> > means not having that much focus at all, and I think we should focus
>> > on being the cool MVCC database w/ REST API that makes things like
>> > CouchApps possible.
>>
>> Regardless of that, CouchApp.org should be in the hands of people that
>> care about it and if we can help with that, we should.
>>
>> Best
>> Jan
>> --
>>
>>
>>
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Octavian Damiean <od...@linux.com>.
+1 even if we decide that the concept shouldn't be part of the core project
we should make sure that it is maintained well since it represents a
community effort and w certainly don't want our community to look broken.
On Nov 30, 2013 12:46 PM, "Jan Lehnardt" <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 30 Nov 2013, at 11:34 , Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> If we considers the couchapps concept as a part of the couchdb project,
> >> then we should:
> >>
> >> - either start some action
> >>
> >> - or find a new name and new way to document the concept
> >>
> >> If some of you consider that we should just ditch the couchapps concept
> >> from the couchdb and make couchdb another database, then we should also
> >> clarify this situation and start a real discussion about it and at the
> end
> >> take a decision
> >
> > IMO the CouchApps concept should not be a part of the CouchDB project,
> > even though it is obviously related to it. Having too wide a focus
> > means not having that much focus at all, and I think we should focus
> > on being the cool MVCC database w/ REST API that makes things like
> > CouchApps possible.
>
> Regardless of that, CouchApp.org should be in the hands of people that
> care about it and if we can help with that, we should.
>
> Best
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
On 30 Nov 2013, at 11:34 , Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If we considers the couchapps concept as a part of the couchdb project,
>> then we should:
>>
>> - either start some action
>>
>> - or find a new name and new way to document the concept
>>
>> If some of you consider that we should just ditch the couchapps concept
>> from the couchdb and make couchdb another database, then we should also
>> clarify this situation and start a real discussion about it and at the end
>> take a decision
>
> IMO the CouchApps concept should not be a part of the CouchDB project,
> even though it is obviously related to it. Having too wide a focus
> means not having that much focus at all, and I think we should focus
> on being the cool MVCC database w/ REST API that makes things like
> CouchApps possible.
Regardless of that, CouchApp.org should be in the hands of people that
care about it and if we can help with that, we should.
Best
Jan
--
Re: [discuss] couchapp.org down, couchapp.org spammed
Posted by Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl>.
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If we considers the couchapps concept as a part of the couchdb project,
> then we should:
>
> - either start some action
>
> - or find a new name and new way to document the concept
>
> If some of you consider that we should just ditch the couchapps concept
> from the couchdb and make couchdb another database, then we should also
> clarify this situation and start a real discussion about it and at the end
> take a decision
IMO the CouchApps concept should not be a part of the CouchDB project,
even though it is obviously related to it. Having too wide a focus
means not having that much focus at all, and I think we should focus
on being the cool MVCC database w/ REST API that makes things like
CouchApps possible.
Cheers,
Dirkjan