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Posted to dev@tomcat.apache.org by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> on 2023/06/15 09:31:49 UTC
Tomcat 11, Java 21 and Windows 32-bit support
All,
I'm currently looking at adding the Windows specific binary
distributions to Maven Central as a result of PR #609 [1].
That got me thinking whether Windows 32-bit was still supported.
Some quick research found that:
- The only currently supported 32-bit version of Windows is Windows 10
which reaches EOL on 2025-10-14
- OpenJDK only provides 64-bit Windows releases for Java 20
- Oracle only provides 64-bit Windows releases for Java 9 onwards
- The Java 21 EA releases only include 64-bit builds for Windows
- The latest Temurin release for 32-bit Windows is Java 19
- The latest Azul release for 32-bit Windows is Java 17
Given the above, I think we can safely:
- plan to stop providing 32-bit Windows builds after 2025-10-14
- remove 32-bit Windows builds from Tomcat 11
Given that the only remaining supported 32-bit Windows operating system
is a consumer one (the last Windows server OS to support 32-bit was
Sever 2008) do we want to drop 32-bit support from any other products
and/or versions? I'm thinking about Tomcat Native, Connectors (mod_jk &
ISAPI redirector), and the earlier Tomcat versions.
Personally, I'm leaning towards not making any further changes until
after 2025-10-14 but what does everyone else think?
Thoughts?
Mark
[1] https://github.com/apache/tomcat/pull/609
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Re: Tomcat 11, Java 21 and Windows 32-bit support
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 20/06/2023 23:34, Christopher Schultz wrote:
> Mark,
>
> On 6/15/23 05:31, Mark Thomas wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> I'm currently looking at adding the Windows specific binary
>> distributions to Maven Central as a result of PR #609 [1].
>>
>> That got me thinking whether Windows 32-bit was still supported.
>>
>> Some quick research found that:
>>
>> - The only currently supported 32-bit version of Windows is Windows 10
>> which reaches EOL on 2025-10-14
>>
>> - OpenJDK only provides 64-bit Windows releases for Java 20
>>
>> - Oracle only provides 64-bit Windows releases for Java 9 onwards
>>
>> - The Java 21 EA releases only include 64-bit builds for Windows
>>
>> - The latest Temurin release for 32-bit Windows is Java 19
>>
>> - The latest Azul release for 32-bit Windows is Java 17
>>
>>
>> Given the above, I think we can safely:
>>
>> - plan to stop providing 32-bit Windows builds after 2025-10-14
>>
>> - remove 32-bit Windows builds from Tomcat 11
>
> Microsoft has sometimes allowed customers to stick with "unsupported"
> versions of Windows my just paying for
> super-secret-double-extended-support lifetimes. I'm not sure how they
> will feel about that EOY 2025 for Windows 10, but it could happen.
Indeed. But there are also options to pay for extended Tomcat support.
We are pretty generous with out support lifetimes so I think ending
support for an OS when it officially reaches EOL seems reasonable.
>> Given that the only remaining supported 32-bit Windows operating
>> system is a consumer one (the last Windows server OS to support 32-bit
>> was Sever 2008) do we want to drop 32-bit support from any other
>> products and/or versions? I'm thinking about Tomcat Native, Connectors
>> (mod_jk & ISAPI redirector), and the earlier Tomcat versions.
>>
>> Personally, I'm leaning towards not making any further changes until
>> after 2025-10-14 but what does everyone else think?
>
> Certainly there's no reason to change anything just yet, but this is a
> reasonable conversation to have starting now.
>
> Another data point: Apache Lounge (Windows builds for httpd and related
> modules) only does 64-bit builds for mod_jk. I didn't look at archives
> to see how far back in time you have to go in order to get a 32-bit build.
Ah. Interesting. I didn't know that.
> Given that we bundle libtcnative with Tomcat but do not build it
> on-demand for each release (that is, we just pull the existing binaries)
> and we should continue to bundle both 32-bit and 64-bit libtcnative
> builds with Tomcat 9 semi-indefinitely, I think it's actually more work
> to remove the 32-bit builds from Tomcat 10, 11, etc. than it is to leave
> them in, no?
It is, but by that argument we'd never remove anything that was no
longer used / needed.
The changes for Tomcat 11 are already in place so...
> 32-bit builds for the installer/uninstaller and mod_jk seem more
> obvious. I think these days it's /much/ more likely that someone is
> running a 32-bit JVM on a 64-bit OS than on a 32-bit OS. So it really
> doesn't matter if the installer/uninstaller are available as 32-bit as
> long as the installer installs the arch-appropriate libtcnative.
I'm fairly sure the installer is 32-bit and I know it does auto-detect
the correct architecture from the JVM.
That is a good point about 32-bit JVMs. It might be the case that we
need to support 32-bit Tomcat Native as long as there are supported
Tomcat versions that run on (supported? - we've never been that
concerned about Java versions going out of support) Java versions that
are available for 32-bit.
Mark
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Re: Tomcat 11, Java 21 and Windows 32-bit support
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
Mark,
On 6/15/23 05:31, Mark Thomas wrote:
> All,
>
> I'm currently looking at adding the Windows specific binary
> distributions to Maven Central as a result of PR #609 [1].
>
> That got me thinking whether Windows 32-bit was still supported.
>
> Some quick research found that:
>
> - The only currently supported 32-bit version of Windows is Windows 10
> which reaches EOL on 2025-10-14
>
> - OpenJDK only provides 64-bit Windows releases for Java 20
>
> - Oracle only provides 64-bit Windows releases for Java 9 onwards
>
> - The Java 21 EA releases only include 64-bit builds for Windows
>
> - The latest Temurin release for 32-bit Windows is Java 19
>
> - The latest Azul release for 32-bit Windows is Java 17
>
>
> Given the above, I think we can safely:
>
> - plan to stop providing 32-bit Windows builds after 2025-10-14
>
> - remove 32-bit Windows builds from Tomcat 11
Microsoft has sometimes allowed customers to stick with "unsupported"
versions of Windows my just paying for
super-secret-double-extended-support lifetimes. I'm not sure how they
will feel about that EOY 2025 for Windows 10, but it could happen.
> Given that the only remaining supported 32-bit Windows operating system
> is a consumer one (the last Windows server OS to support 32-bit was
> Sever 2008) do we want to drop 32-bit support from any other products
> and/or versions? I'm thinking about Tomcat Native, Connectors (mod_jk &
> ISAPI redirector), and the earlier Tomcat versions.
>
> Personally, I'm leaning towards not making any further changes until
> after 2025-10-14 but what does everyone else think?
Certainly there's no reason to change anything just yet, but this is a
reasonable conversation to have starting now.
Another data point: Apache Lounge (Windows builds for httpd and related
modules) only does 64-bit builds for mod_jk. I didn't look at archives
to see how far back in time you have to go in order to get a 32-bit build.
Given that we bundle libtcnative with Tomcat but do not build it
on-demand for each release (that is, we just pull the existing binaries)
and we should continue to bundle both 32-bit and 64-bit libtcnative
builds with Tomcat 9 semi-indefinitely, I think it's actually more work
to remove the 32-bit builds from Tomcat 10, 11, etc. than it is to leave
them in, no?
32-bit builds for the installer/uninstaller and mod_jk seem more
obvious. I think these days it's /much/ more likely that someone is
running a 32-bit JVM on a 64-bit OS than on a 32-bit OS. So it really
doesn't matter if the installer/uninstaller are available as 32-bit as
long as the installer installs the arch-appropriate libtcnative.
-chris
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Re: Tomcat 11, Java 21 and Windows 32-bit support
Posted by Rémy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:31 AM Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I'm currently looking at adding the Windows specific binary
> distributions to Maven Central as a result of PR #609 [1].
>
> That got me thinking whether Windows 32-bit was still supported.
>
> Some quick research found that:
>
> - The only currently supported 32-bit version of Windows is Windows 10
> which reaches EOL on 2025-10-14
>
> - OpenJDK only provides 64-bit Windows releases for Java 20
>
> - Oracle only provides 64-bit Windows releases for Java 9 onwards
>
> - The Java 21 EA releases only include 64-bit builds for Windows
>
> - The latest Temurin release for 32-bit Windows is Java 19
>
> - The latest Azul release for 32-bit Windows is Java 17
>
>
> Given the above, I think we can safely:
>
> - plan to stop providing 32-bit Windows builds after 2025-10-14
>
> - remove 32-bit Windows builds from Tomcat 11
>
> Given that the only remaining supported 32-bit Windows operating system
> is a consumer one (the last Windows server OS to support 32-bit was
> Sever 2008) do we want to drop 32-bit support from any other products
> and/or versions? I'm thinking about Tomcat Native, Connectors (mod_jk &
> ISAPI redirector), and the earlier Tomcat versions.
>
> Personally, I'm leaning towards not making any further changes until
> after 2025-10-14 but what does everyone else think?
>
> Thoughts?
+1, end of 2025 sounds very generous for 32 bit.
Rémy
> Mark
>
>
> [1] https://github.com/apache/tomcat/pull/609
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
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>
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Re: Tomcat 11, Java 21 and Windows 32-bit support
Posted by Emmanuel Bourg <eb...@apache.org>.
On 16/06/2023 21:42, Mark Thomas wrote:
> There are lots of interesting things about those numbers but in terms of
> 32-bit Windows support there still looks to be a demand for it all the
> way up to Tomcat 10. If we were to drop it for one we might as well drop
> it for all but I think there is enough demand to keep producing the
> 32-bit binaries for now.
We don't know if there is a real demand for 32-bit binaries or if this
simply reflects random clicks on the download page. The 32-bit zip is
listed before the 64-bit one, this might inflate the numbers.
Running Tomcat on Windows with less than 4GB RAM doesn't make much sense
nowadays in my opinion. If someone really has a memory constrained
server he would run Linux and not Windows.
I'm +1 for releasing Tomcat 11 with 64-bit binaries only, but I wouldn't
wait until 2025 to drop the 32-bit distribution for the previous
releases. If nobody complains about the lack of 32-bit support in Tomcat
11 by the end of 2023, I would suggest dropping the 32-bit binary
distribution for Tomcat 10 as well.
Emmanuel Bourg
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Re: Tomcat 11, Java 21 and Windows 32-bit support
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 16/06/2023 16:15, Mark Thomas wrote:
> One thing we could do is check the download stats for the x86 releases.
> I'll look into that before doing anything else.
Looking at the last 90 days of CDN downloads
There were 5.6 million Tomcat downloads via the CDN
100k of those were for source distributions (not relevant for this
discussion but interesting)
1.2 million of those were for Windows binary distributions.
56k of those were for x86 Windows binary distributions.
Breaking down the 56k further we have:
- Tomcat 8 20k
- Tomcat 9 22k
- Tomcat 10 11k
- Tomcat 11 3k
archives.a.o saw 5.7 million downloads over the same period.
115k of those were for source distributions
1 (yes one!) was for a x64 Windows binary
There were no downloads of x86 Windows binaries
And for entertainment they break down by version as:
- Tomcat 11 48k
- Tomcat 10 380k
- Tomcat 9 2,700k
- Tomcat 8 1,700k
- Tomcat 7 800k
- Tomcat 6 68k
- Tomcat 5 18k
- Tomcat 4 2k
- Tomcat 3 5
There are lots of interesting things about those numbers but in terms of
32-bit Windows support there still looks to be a demand for it all the
way up to Tomcat 10. If we were to drop it for one we might as well drop
it for all but I think there is enough demand to keep producing the
32-bit binaries for now.
Mark
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Re: Tomcat 11, Java 21 and Windows 32-bit support
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 15/06/2023 12:27, Konstantin Kolinko wrote:
> чт, 15 июн. 2023 г. в 12:32, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Given the above, I think we can safely:
>>
>> - plan to stop providing 32-bit Windows builds after 2025-10-14
>>
>> - remove 32-bit Windows builds from Tomcat 11
>>
>> Given that the only remaining supported 32-bit Windows operating system
>> is a consumer one (the last Windows server OS to support 32-bit was
>> Sever 2008) do we want to drop 32-bit support from any other products
>> and/or versions? I'm thinking about Tomcat Native, Connectors (mod_jk &
>> ISAPI redirector), and the earlier Tomcat versions.
>>
>> Personally, I'm leaning towards not making any further changes until
>> after 2025-10-14 but what does everyone else think?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> Regarding 32-bit Java on Windows, my experience is
>
> 1. I still have Java 7 (32-bit) installed, and I use it to test Tomcat 8.5.
>
> I do not know about any 64-bit versions of Java 7 being available.
>
> I plan to uninstall it once Tomcat 8.5 reaches EOL.
>
> 2. I have 32-bit Java 8 (provided by Temurin) installed, for the sake
> of occasionally running some legacy software.
>
> (Software that is based on old 32-bit versions of Eclipse RCP
> platform. That platform has native components in it (SWT). Thus it is
> tied to a specific processor architecture).
>
> I occasionally use this 32-bit Java 8 to test Tomcat 9. I remember
> fixing some tests that did not pass with memory limitations of a
> 32-bit JRE.
>
> I do not run Tomcat 9 on 32-bit Java for any business purpose.
>
> 3. I do not use 32-bit Java 11, though I know that it is available from Temurin.
>
> I never tested Tomcat 10.1 with it.
>
> 4. I wonder about the Windows 10 EOL date. I know some places that
> still use Windows XP.
> (It is hard to upgrade the OS on existing legacy hardware.)
>
> Thus
>
> 1. I think that providing 32-bit Windows support for Tomcat 9 (and
> Tomcat Native 1.2.x) has a value, as long as it continues to run on
> Java 8.
>
> We may reconsider if some Tomcat 9.y.x version will require a later
> version of Java.
>
> 2. I wonder about Tomcat 10.1 and Java 11.
>
> As a starter, we may stop publishing
> "apache-tomcat-10.1.x-windows-x86.zip" archives and see if anyone
> cares.
>
> 3. I am +1 for removing 32-bit support from Tomcat 11 onwards.
I think we have consensus for this last point so I'll start working on that.
One thing we could do is check the download stats for the x86 releases.
I'll look into that before doing anything else.
Mark
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Re: Tomcat 11, Java 21 and Windows 32-bit support
Posted by Konstantin Kolinko <kn...@gmail.com>.
чт, 15 июн. 2023 г. в 12:32, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>:
>
> [...]
>
> Given the above, I think we can safely:
>
> - plan to stop providing 32-bit Windows builds after 2025-10-14
>
> - remove 32-bit Windows builds from Tomcat 11
>
> Given that the only remaining supported 32-bit Windows operating system
> is a consumer one (the last Windows server OS to support 32-bit was
> Sever 2008) do we want to drop 32-bit support from any other products
> and/or versions? I'm thinking about Tomcat Native, Connectors (mod_jk &
> ISAPI redirector), and the earlier Tomcat versions.
>
> Personally, I'm leaning towards not making any further changes until
> after 2025-10-14 but what does everyone else think?
>
> Thoughts?
Regarding 32-bit Java on Windows, my experience is
1. I still have Java 7 (32-bit) installed, and I use it to test Tomcat 8.5.
I do not know about any 64-bit versions of Java 7 being available.
I plan to uninstall it once Tomcat 8.5 reaches EOL.
2. I have 32-bit Java 8 (provided by Temurin) installed, for the sake
of occasionally running some legacy software.
(Software that is based on old 32-bit versions of Eclipse RCP
platform. That platform has native components in it (SWT). Thus it is
tied to a specific processor architecture).
I occasionally use this 32-bit Java 8 to test Tomcat 9. I remember
fixing some tests that did not pass with memory limitations of a
32-bit JRE.
I do not run Tomcat 9 on 32-bit Java for any business purpose.
3. I do not use 32-bit Java 11, though I know that it is available from Temurin.
I never tested Tomcat 10.1 with it.
4. I wonder about the Windows 10 EOL date. I know some places that
still use Windows XP.
(It is hard to upgrade the OS on existing legacy hardware.)
Thus
1. I think that providing 32-bit Windows support for Tomcat 9 (and
Tomcat Native 1.2.x) has a value, as long as it continues to run on
Java 8.
We may reconsider if some Tomcat 9.y.x version will require a later
version of Java.
2. I wonder about Tomcat 10.1 and Java 11.
As a starter, we may stop publishing
"apache-tomcat-10.1.x-windows-x86.zip" archives and see if anyone
cares.
3. I am +1 for removing 32-bit support from Tomcat 11 onwards.
Best regards,
Konstantin Kolinko
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