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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com> on 2010/01/11 09:39:53 UTC
Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
> action by the copyright owner?
Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
modifications?
Jochen
--
Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Daniel,
On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:31 AM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
>>> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
>>> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
>>> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
>>> modifications?
>>
>> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
>> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
>> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
>> ownership of their contributions.
>
> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>
> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then,
> in
> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it
> and not
> the ASF.
To be clear, the owner of the code retains all copyrights. The
committer might or might not be the copyright owner (especially if the
work is done under contract covered by "work for hire" or other
concepts). That's one reason for the CCLA, to make sure that companies
explicitly grant a license to Apache for code that is committed by
employees .
> Thus, why does our NOTICE file have:
>
> Copyright 2006-2010 The Apache Software Foundation
>
> Is that for the "collective work" (aka: the distribution)?
Yes.
> Even that would
> be built and such on my machine and signed with my personal keys and
> such.
When the release manager builds an Apache release, there's no IP
contributed by the release manager that needs to be acknowledged with
a notice. Apache holds the copyright to the collective work.
Craig
>
> Most just to satisfy my own curiosity. Might as well try and learn
> something
> new today. :-)
>
> --
> Daniel Kulp
> dkulp@apache.org
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Ceki,
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 7:42 PM, Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch> wrote:
> ...Adding a copyright notice for "WorldWide Conferencing" or any other
> contributor in ASF's SVN is an awful idea. It goes against an existing
> procedure which has the merit of being both perfectly simple and very
> fair. Having the ASF copyright on code hosted on ASF's SVN makes a
> clear statement. This code is owned by the ASF, although it may be
> co-owned....
Agree about that. The problem with ESME is that this code is existing,
it's a major part of the ESME core, and the committer refuses to
remove it.
So I guess in this case we'll find a pragmatic solution as has been
suggested in this thread, but I totally agree that this should be an
exception, nothing more.
-Bertrand
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
Adding a copyright notice for "WorldWide Conferencing" or any other
contributor in ASF's SVN is an awful idea. It goes against an existing
procedure which has the merit of being both perfectly simple and very
fair. Having the ASF copyright on code hosted on ASF's SVN makes a
clear statement. This code is owned by the ASF, although it may be
co-owned.
If a contributor wishes to publish software they have written outside
the ASF they can do so. The ICLA allows this.
It is unfortunate that David has decided to resign from his ASF
activities but that is his decision. He misunderstood the basic
functioning of the ASF and the way contributions are handled. Nothing
the ASF could have done, except explaining ASF's policy *before* he
started contributing could have influenced the outcome.
Author tags raise a different question having to do with attribution
and much less with copyright. I wish the current policy for removing
author tags would be reverted because well, I think it sucks. Anyway,
I won't develop any arguments as to why because it's a different
question than the one raised by Bertrand.
On 11/01/2010 7:00 PM, Richard Hirsch wrote:
> What additional obligations will arise for users of ESME because
> copyright notices are contained in either source code or the NOTICE
> file? Especially if they distributed ESME source code rather than a
> binary form?
>
> D.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Ceki Gülcü<ce...@qos.ch> wrote:
>> On 11/01/2010 5:31 PM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>>>>
>>>>> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
>>>>> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
>>>>> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
>>>>> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
>>>>> modifications?
>>>>
>>>> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
>>>> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
>>>> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
>>>> ownership of their contributions.
>>>
>>> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>>>
>>> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
>>> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and
>>> not
>>> the ASF.
>>
>> Contrary to physical property, software is immaterial. When you lend
>> your car to a friend for a week, you can no longer drive it during
>> that week because the vehicle is inaccessible. With software, when
>> your grant sub-licensing rights to a friend on some software you have
>> written, e.g. the ASF, both you and the ASF have now copyright on the
>> said software. ASF's rights to do not diminish your rights and vice
>> versa.
>>
>> So, the contents of the svn is copyrighted by thge ASF even if you as
>> a contributor hold copyright for the parts you have developed and
>> could create your own distribution (based on your work) under a
>> different license and your copyright. Logback is a concrete example
>> thereof.
>>
>> More generally, the written word like software is immaterial. Most
>> editors will have the author to assign copyright to the
>> editor. However, if you insist and after some negotiation, the editor
>> might agree for you to retain copyright for your work and keep a
>> parallel copyright (for the editor). But I am digressing...
>>
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>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
What additional obligations will arise for users of ESME because
copyright notices are contained in either source code or the NOTICE
file? Especially if they distributed ESME source code rather than a
binary form?
D.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch> wrote:
> On 11/01/2010 5:31 PM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
>>
>> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>>>
>>>> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
>>>> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
>>>> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
>>>> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
>>>> modifications?
>>>
>>> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
>>> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
>>> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
>>> ownership of their contributions.
>>
>> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>>
>> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
>> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and
>> not
>> the ASF.
>
> Contrary to physical property, software is immaterial. When you lend
> your car to a friend for a week, you can no longer drive it during
> that week because the vehicle is inaccessible. With software, when
> your grant sub-licensing rights to a friend on some software you have
> written, e.g. the ASF, both you and the ASF have now copyright on the
> said software. ASF's rights to do not diminish your rights and vice
> versa.
>
> So, the contents of the svn is copyrighted by thge ASF even if you as
> a contributor hold copyright for the parts you have developed and
> could create your own distribution (based on your work) under a
> different license and your copyright. Logback is a concrete example
> thereof.
>
> More generally, the written word like software is immaterial. Most
> editors will have the author to assign copyright to the
> editor. However, if you insist and after some negotiation, the editor
> might agree for you to retain copyright for your work and keep a
> parallel copyright (for the editor). But I am digressing...
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
On 11/01/2010 5:31 PM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
>>> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
>>> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
>>> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
>>> modifications?
>>
>> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
>> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
>> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
>> ownership of their contributions.
>
> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>
> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and not
> the ASF.
Contrary to physical property, software is immaterial. When you lend
your car to a friend for a week, you can no longer drive it during
that week because the vehicle is inaccessible. With software, when
your grant sub-licensing rights to a friend on some software you have
written, e.g. the ASF, both you and the ASF have now copyright on the
said software. ASF's rights to do not diminish your rights and vice
versa.
So, the contents of the svn is copyrighted by thge ASF even if you as
a contributor hold copyright for the parts you have developed and
could create your own distribution (based on your work) under a
different license and your copyright. Logback is a concrete example
thereof.
More generally, the written word like software is immaterial. Most
editors will have the author to assign copyright to the
editor. However, if you insist and after some negotiation, the editor
might agree for you to retain copyright for your work and keep a
parallel copyright (for the editor). But I am digressing...
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 1:59:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
> > It is trivial to get "who-contributed-what" information from
> > subversion.
>
> That is great. But I note that "who contributed" isn't necessarily the same
> as "who claimed ownership of the copyright."
To a downstream user who complies with the Apache license, what difference does
it make? It only matters to someone who intends to violate the license and
rely on some other agreement with the copyright owner. I simply could care
less about those cases as they don't further the foundation's mission in the
least. We distribute icla and ccla information to anyone who wants it, that
should be enough for anyone who is familiar with how subversion works.
>
> > The only thing collecting that additional information in the NOTICE file
> > would provide is more redundant overhead for downstream repackagers to
> > carry along with our releases.
>
> And that hurts the downstream repackagers in what ways? We don't charge per
> byte.
You must be new to open source ;-). Downstream repackagers and people producing
derivative works do not want to pass along third-party NOTICES to their consumers,
as once things are in our NOTICE file they cannot be removed. The ASF offers
clean and simple licensing terms which is not intended to be accompanied by a
laundry list of explicit IP claims.
> > If that means more work for third party attorneys come
> > enforcement time, them's the breaks.
>
> I suppose that, as a paid attorney, I shouldn't worry about more work. As a
> potential client, you should be.
Not if I expect the ASF to make enforcement decisions ;-)
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RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
> It is trivial to get "who-contributed-what" information from
> subversion.
That is great. But I note that "who contributed" isn't necessarily the same
as "who claimed ownership of the copyright."
> The only thing collecting that additional information in the NOTICE file
> would provide is more redundant overhead for downstream repackagers to
> carry along with our releases.
And that hurts the downstream repackagers in what ways? We don't charge per
byte.
> If that means more work for third party attorneys come
> enforcement time, them's the breaks.
I suppose that, as a paid attorney, I shouldn't worry about more work. As a
potential client, you should be.
/Larry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe_schaefer@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:18 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
> (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>
> > From: Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>
> > To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> > Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 12:03:38 PM
> > Subject: RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
> (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> > For that reason, our contributors needn't worry about their
> copyrights being
> > affected because ASF removes their copyright notices. However, I have
> said
> > previously, as my personal opinion, that our policy ought to be to
> retain
> > contributors' copyright notices somewhere obvious (in the NOTICE
> file, or leave
> > them where you found them?), if only to provide as much historical
> information
> > as possible to determine the original provenance of the code.
>
> It is trivial to get "who-contributed-what" information from
> subversion. The
> only thing collecting that additional information in the NOTICE file
> would provide
> is more redundant overhead for downstream repackagers to carry along
> with our
> releases. The ASF discourages people from putting any "ownership"
> marks on our
> source code as a means of facilitating the types of social balances
> we'd like our
> communities to maintain. If that means more work for third party
> attorneys come
> enforcement time, them's the breaks.
>
>
>
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 12:03:38 PM
> Subject: RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
> For that reason, our contributors needn't worry about their copyrights being
> affected because ASF removes their copyright notices. However, I have said
> previously, as my personal opinion, that our policy ought to be to retain
> contributors' copyright notices somewhere obvious (in the NOTICE file, or leave
> them where you found them?), if only to provide as much historical information
> as possible to determine the original provenance of the code.
It is trivial to get "who-contributed-what" information from subversion. The
only thing collecting that additional information in the NOTICE file would provide
is more redundant overhead for downstream repackagers to carry along with our
releases. The ASF discourages people from putting any "ownership" marks on our
source code as a means of facilitating the types of social balances we'd like our
communities to maintain. If that means more work for third party attorneys come
enforcement time, them's the breaks.
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@SUN.com>.
Hi Larry,
On Jan 11, 2010, at 9:03 AM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> For that reason, our contributors needn't worry about their
> copyrights being affected because ASF removes their copyright notices.
We don't *remove* copyright notices from the project. We *move* them
to the NOTICE or LICENSE file depending (please don't fuss over where
they move; that's a separate discussion).
> However, I have said previously, as my personal opinion, that our
> policy ought to be to retain contributors' copyright notices
> somewhere obvious (in the NOTICE file, or leave them where you found
> them?), if only to provide as much historical information as
> possible to determine the original provenance of the code.
This is our current policy.
Craig
Craig L Russell
Assistant Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
Chair, OpenJPA PMC
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
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RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
Daniel Kulp asked:
> Thus, why does our NOTICE file have:
>
> Copyright 2006-2010 The Apache Software Foundation
See 17 USC 404(a):
A separate contribution to a collective work may bear its own notice of
copyright, as provided by sections 401 through 403 [17 USC § §401-403].
However, a single notice applicable to the collective work as a whole
is sufficient to invoke the provisions of section 401(d) or 402(d),
as applicable with respect to the separate contributions it contains
(not including advertisements inserted on behalf of persons other than
the owner of copyright in the collective work), regardless of the
ownership of copyright in the contributions and whether or not they
have been previously published.
Section 401(d) and 402(d) provide that copyright notices have evidentiary weight. In other words, the presence of a notice prevents someone from claiming that his/her infringement was innocent (i.e., "I didn't know I was infringing"). Copyright notices aren't actually required but they help in this way.
17 USC 405(c) also provides:
Removal of notice. Protection under this title is not affected by the
removal, destruction, or obliteration of the notice, without the
authorization of the copyright owner, from any publicly distributed
copies or phonorecords.
For that reason, our contributors needn't worry about their copyrights being affected because ASF removes their copyright notices. However, I have said previously, as my personal opinion, that our policy ought to be to retain contributors' copyright notices somewhere obvious (in the NOTICE file, or leave them where you found them?), if only to provide as much historical information as possible to determine the original provenance of the code.
> Most just to satisfy my own curiosity. Might as well try and learn
> something new today. :-)
I hope you did. :-)
/Larry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Kulp [mailto:dkulp@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:32 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
> (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
> > > Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
> > > understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
> > > assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
> > > least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
> > > modifications?
> >
> > No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
> > Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
> > copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
> > ownership of their contributions.
>
> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>
> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and
> not
> the ASF. Thus, why does our NOTICE file have:
>
> Copyright 2006-2010 The Apache Software Foundation
>
> Is that for the "collective work" (aka: the distribution)? Even that
> would
> be built and such on my machine and signed with my personal keys and
> such.
>
> Most just to satisfy my own curiosity. Might as well try and learn
> something
> new today. :-)
>
> --
> Daniel Kulp
> dkulp@apache.org
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
> > Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
> > understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
> > assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
> > least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
> > modifications?
>
> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
> ownership of their contributions.
On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and not
the ASF. Thus, why does our NOTICE file have:
Copyright 2006-2010 The Apache Software Foundation
Is that for the "collective work" (aka: the distribution)? Even that would
be built and such on my machine and signed with my personal keys and such.
Most just to satisfy my own curiosity. Might as well try and learn something
new today. :-)
--
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
<jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
>> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
>> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
>> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
>> action by the copyright owner?
>
> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
> modifications?
No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
ownership of their contributions.
-Bertrand
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