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Posted to ivy-user@ant.apache.org by Paul Newport <ne...@googlemail.com> on 2008/06/22 11:31:58 UTC
Plea for a forum
Looking through the mail archive, there was a thread asking for a
forum instead of a mailing list.
I've started looking at IVY recently and have had to subscribe at work
with my work email address, and at home with my home one, which is
somewhat frustrating.
Mailing lists may have been OK years ago, but I seriously believe you
are shooting yourselves in the foot by having a mailing list instead
of forum. Look at the forum used by the Spring Project, or the JBoss
crew, highly active, loads of users and traffic, easy to search, can
log in whether at home or at work.
Also some people's work IT managers like to monitor email traffic
(don't you love 'em) and frown upon constant emails coming in from a
mailing list.
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by pa...@targetgroup.net.
I do agree with Patrick on this one.
My main issue with mailing lists is that you get all the threads regardless
(hence the spam comment) and that the user interfaces of the archive
viewers is nowhere near as good as say the one used on the Spring forum.
The question was asked by the developers about a forum, so they muyst be
pondering it too. I do think you would get a lot more activity if there was
a forum, which is at the end of the day what we want.
Target
www.targetgroup.net
Target is a trading name of Target Group Limited,
registered in England and Wales No. 1208137
Registered office: Target House, Cowbridge Road East, Cardiff CF11 9AU
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Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Patrick Aikens <pa...@gmail.com>.
I like Drupal - I've used that for my personal site for quite a while, and
even though I'm abandoning it now I still think it's a good choice for
portal and community sites - there's just better options for personal
sites. The included forum module was just a hacked up post/comment module,
though, and it hasn't improved...
So, I guess this is off-topic for the off-topic... :)
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Xavier Hanin <xa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Patrick Aikens <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ick - no wonder... that looks like the Drupal default forum module...
> which
> > isn't a forum at all, really.
>
> Indeed, that's what it was. Better than nothing I'd say, and it helped Ivy
> grow during its first days.
>
> Xavier
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue 2008-06-24 at 08:59h, paul.newport@targetgroup.net wrote on
> > > ivy-user:
> > > :
> > > > Doesn't it make more sense to have one nicely searchable forum than
> > >
> > > It would make sense if web applications would have the responsiveness
> > > and useability of fat client desktop apps (as an analogy, would you
> > > like to put up with having to use a web-based IDE running in a browser
> > > rather than your normal desktop IDE?) and if the searching/sorting/
> > > filtering functionality would be as powerful as provided by desktop
> > > e-mail client software. The other thing is that a web forum forces the
> > > same user interface on everyone. With e-mail on the other hand you
> > > have many choices (including even the choice to write your own client).
> > >
> > > > That cache incidentally being not portable between work and home
> > > > accounts.
> > >
> > > It is possible to properly synchronize over a remote account.
> > >
> > > But really, I think this discussion has come to a dead point. The
> > > basic arguments have been exchanged, no side will completely change
> > > their mind anyway, and in the end the decision is up to Xavier.
> > >
> > > There once was an Ivy forum by the way (
> > http://www.jaya.free.fr/forum.html
> > > ),
> > > which was a hassle to search and browse and post to and keep track of.
> > > I can't tell you how glad I was when it was finally replaced by this
> > > mailing list. :)
> > >
> > > -- Niklas Matthies
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > WC Fields - "I am free of all prejudices. I hate every one equally."
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
> http://xhab.blogspot.com/
> http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
> http://www.xoocode.org/
>
--
Frank Lloyd Wright - "TV is chewing gum for the eyes."
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Xavier Hanin <xa...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Patrick Aikens <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ick - no wonder... that looks like the Drupal default forum module... which
> isn't a forum at all, really.
Indeed, that's what it was. Better than nothing I'd say, and it helped Ivy
grow during its first days.
Xavier
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue 2008-06-24 at 08:59h, paul.newport@targetgroup.net wrote on
> > ivy-user:
> > :
> > > Doesn't it make more sense to have one nicely searchable forum than
> >
> > It would make sense if web applications would have the responsiveness
> > and useability of fat client desktop apps (as an analogy, would you
> > like to put up with having to use a web-based IDE running in a browser
> > rather than your normal desktop IDE?) and if the searching/sorting/
> > filtering functionality would be as powerful as provided by desktop
> > e-mail client software. The other thing is that a web forum forces the
> > same user interface on everyone. With e-mail on the other hand you
> > have many choices (including even the choice to write your own client).
> >
> > > That cache incidentally being not portable between work and home
> > > accounts.
> >
> > It is possible to properly synchronize over a remote account.
> >
> > But really, I think this discussion has come to a dead point. The
> > basic arguments have been exchanged, no side will completely change
> > their mind anyway, and in the end the decision is up to Xavier.
> >
> > There once was an Ivy forum by the way (
> http://www.jaya.free.fr/forum.html
> > ),
> > which was a hassle to search and browse and post to and keep track of.
> > I can't tell you how glad I was when it was finally replaced by this
> > mailing list. :)
> >
> > -- Niklas Matthies
> >
>
>
>
> --
> WC Fields - "I am free of all prejudices. I hate every one equally."
>
--
Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
http://xhab.blogspot.com/
http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
http://www.xoocode.org/
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Patrick Aikens <pa...@gmail.com>.
Ick - no wonder... that looks like the Drupal default forum module... which
isn't a forum at all, really.
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>
wrote:
> On Tue 2008-06-24 at 08:59h, paul.newport@targetgroup.net wrote on
> ivy-user:
> :
> > Doesn't it make more sense to have one nicely searchable forum than
>
> It would make sense if web applications would have the responsiveness
> and useability of fat client desktop apps (as an analogy, would you
> like to put up with having to use a web-based IDE running in a browser
> rather than your normal desktop IDE?) and if the searching/sorting/
> filtering functionality would be as powerful as provided by desktop
> e-mail client software. The other thing is that a web forum forces the
> same user interface on everyone. With e-mail on the other hand you
> have many choices (including even the choice to write your own client).
>
> > That cache incidentally being not portable between work and home
> > accounts.
>
> It is possible to properly synchronize over a remote account.
>
> But really, I think this discussion has come to a dead point. The
> basic arguments have been exchanged, no side will completely change
> their mind anyway, and in the end the decision is up to Xavier.
>
> There once was an Ivy forum by the way (http://www.jaya.free.fr/forum.html
> ),
> which was a hassle to search and browse and post to and keep track of.
> I can't tell you how glad I was when it was finally replaced by this
> mailing list. :)
>
> -- Niklas Matthies
>
--
WC Fields - "I am free of all prejudices. I hate every one equally."
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>.
On Tue 2008-06-24 at 08:59h, paul.newport@targetgroup.net wrote on ivy-user:
:
> Doesn't it make more sense to have one nicely searchable forum than
It would make sense if web applications would have the responsiveness
and useability of fat client desktop apps (as an analogy, would you
like to put up with having to use a web-based IDE running in a browser
rather than your normal desktop IDE?) and if the searching/sorting/
filtering functionality would be as powerful as provided by desktop
e-mail client software. The other thing is that a web forum forces the
same user interface on everyone. With e-mail on the other hand you
have many choices (including even the choice to write your own client).
> That cache incidentally being not portable between work and home
> accounts.
It is possible to properly synchronize over a remote account.
But really, I think this discussion has come to a dead point. The
basic arguments have been exchanged, no side will completely change
their mind anyway, and in the end the decision is up to Xavier.
There once was an Ivy forum by the way (http://www.jaya.free.fr/forum.html),
which was a hassle to search and browse and post to and keep track of.
I can't tell you how glad I was when it was finally replaced by this
mailing list. :)
-- Niklas Matthies
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Patrick Aikens <pa...@gmail.com>.
IMAP seems a worse idea than a web interface - in addition to the problems I
mentioned before, you lose the ability to tag things easily and gain several
times the slowness. Searching a large cache of e-mails via IMAP sounds like
a perfectly horrible idea (and indeed, in my experience it is - I moved a
large body of IMAP-accessible e-mail to GMail a couple of years ago to
improve speed, searching and archiving). I do use Thunderbird at home,
sometimes, but I get more done faster with GMail's web interface when
dealing with my GMail account, and ditching the one-copy-in-a-folder
metaphor for the ability to simply label an e-mail with multiple tags was a
massive productivity improvement over my amazingly complex filter/folder
system when I was using IMAP-based hosts, not to mention the need to keep
several desktop apps in sync with regards to my filter rules.
I'm quite willing and interested to get some pointers on how to properly set
up Thunderbird in this context - anything to improve my ability to
participate, though it would only be from home mostly at that point and I
tend to ignore my computer at home (too much like work - 10 hours a day is
enough for me). About all I ever do at home is visit a few of my favorite
forums for some idle chat... I think this is the most I've replied to any
mailing list thread since... ever, actually.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>
wrote:
> On Mon 2008-06-23 at 16:17h, Patrick Aikens wrote on ivy-user:
> > Especially in GMail, your methods wouldn't work.
>
> I'm not really familiar with GMail or its web interface, so somebody
> else would have to comment on that. I would recommend using a desktop
> client software (like Thunderbird or similar) synchronizing with one
> or more IMAP accounts. A good e-mail software set up properly is
> massively more effective in saving time using mailing lists than any
> web forum software I've ever seen (or can imagine).
>
> :
> > in a perfect world I would only want mail addressed DIRECTLY to me
> > and addressing ONLY me in the body sent to my e-mail account - it's
> > for personal messages only.
>
> No, in a perfect world there would be no web forums. ;) ;) ;)
>
> -- Niklas Matthies
>
--
WC Fields - "I am free of all prejudices. I hate every one equally."
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by pa...@targetgroup.net.
"A good e-mail software set up properly is
massively more effective in saving time using mailing lists than any
web forum software I've ever seen (or can imagine)."
I'll lend you my imagination then ;-)
Doesn't it make more sense to have one nicely searchable forum than
thousands of users all with their (partially complete) local cache of
emails all in their many and different email clients ? That cache
incidentally being not portable between work and home accounts.
Target
www.targetgroup.net
Target is a trading name of Target Group Limited,
registered in England and Wales No. 1208137
Registered office: Target House, Cowbridge Road East, Cardiff CF11 9AU
**********************************************************************
DISCLAIMER.
This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may
contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy,
distribute or take any action or reliance upon it.
The content of this message may also contain personal
views of an employee of this company and does
not necessarily represent the view of the company.
**********************************************************************
This message has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus.
It has also been scanned by MAILsweeper to enforce our e-mail
policy. If you have any concerns or comments about the content
of this message, please e-mail support@targetgroup.net.
**********************************************************************
_____________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System. For more information on a proactive email security
service working around the clock, around the globe, visit
http://www.messagelabs.com
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>.
On Mon 2008-06-23 at 16:17h, Patrick Aikens wrote on ivy-user:
> Especially in GMail, your methods wouldn't work.
I'm not really familiar with GMail or its web interface, so somebody
else would have to comment on that. I would recommend using a desktop
client software (like Thunderbird or similar) synchronizing with one
or more IMAP accounts. A good e-mail software set up properly is
massively more effective in saving time using mailing lists than any
web forum software I've ever seen (or can imagine).
:
> in a perfect world I would only want mail addressed DIRECTLY to me
> and addressing ONLY me in the body sent to my e-mail account - it's
> for personal messages only.
No, in a perfect world there would be no web forums. ;) ;) ;)
-- Niklas Matthies
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Patrick Aikens <pa...@gmail.com>.
Especially in GMail, your methods wouldn't work. If I just want to find the
e-mail my friend Bob sent me last month sometime with the name of that
website I can't remember, just quickly searching for "Bob website" in the
GMail search bar would probably hit dozens/hundreds of archived mailing list
e-mails in addition to the one I want, regardless of using labels and
archiving. If I DILLIGENTLY labelled every e-mail, I could restrict the
search to a given label. WAY too much time managing my e-mail at that
point. Life's too short to spend that many hours sorting and tagging
messages. Yeah, I could register another GMail account, but now I have yet
another e-mail address to maintain - I already monitor too many as it is -
I'd probably never even see the messages anymore since I'd probably never
feel I had the time to look at it. I hate the idea of mailing lists in
general - in a perfect world I would only want mail addressed DIRECTLY to me
and addressing ONLY me in the body sent to my e-mail account - it's for
personal messages only. Right now I tend to ignore mailing list traffic out
of habit because of its volume. This thread only caught my eye as my
hopefulness for a forum I could visit only when necessary or had time to
devote to it piqued my interest.
Speaking of time, I suppose I've already spent too much time on this
anyway. My interest has already been answered - no forum, not likely in the
future. Time to delete this thread and set up the kill filter for the
subject.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>
wrote:
> On Mon 2008-06-23 at 07:50h, Patrick Aikens wrote on ivy-user:
> :
> > I have GMail, and it's certainly not a replacement for a decent
> > forum - even with it's unlimited space, it's just silly to think
> > that ALL the Ivy users with GMail or an IMAP account should store
> > their own local cache of messages so they can search them later.
>
> Personally, I highly value a "local cache" for offline searching and
> for not losing the archive when the forum moves or shuts down.
>
> > I clean out all mailing list traffic on a regular basis - I don't
> > have any Ivy mailing list posts more than a week old. I don't want
> > it cluttering up hits in my personal mail when I search it, and I
> > certainly don't want to have to include search modifiers EVERY time
> > I search my mail to omit all the mailing lists.
>
> The usual way to handle this is to use saved searches/virtual folders
> and/or to have mailing list messages auto-saved to dedicated folders
> (and other mails too to their respective folders).
>
> Really, once you've got accustomed to a powerful e-mail client, you
> may realize how much better that is than any forum UI in existence and
> than having to use a dozen forums on a dozen different sites. People
> who prefer mailing lists over forums usually don't do so because they
> are old-fashioned but because they find forum UIs to constitute a
> serious degradation of their user experience compared to their e-mail
> client.
>
> -- Niklas Matthies
>
--
Frank Lloyd Wright - "TV is chewing gum for the eyes."
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>.
On Mon 2008-06-23 at 07:50h, Patrick Aikens wrote on ivy-user:
:
> I have GMail, and it's certainly not a replacement for a decent
> forum - even with it's unlimited space, it's just silly to think
> that ALL the Ivy users with GMail or an IMAP account should store
> their own local cache of messages so they can search them later.
Personally, I highly value a "local cache" for offline searching and
for not losing the archive when the forum moves or shuts down.
> I clean out all mailing list traffic on a regular basis - I don't
> have any Ivy mailing list posts more than a week old. I don't want
> it cluttering up hits in my personal mail when I search it, and I
> certainly don't want to have to include search modifiers EVERY time
> I search my mail to omit all the mailing lists.
The usual way to handle this is to use saved searches/virtual folders
and/or to have mailing list messages auto-saved to dedicated folders
(and other mails too to their respective folders).
Really, once you've got accustomed to a powerful e-mail client, you
may realize how much better that is than any forum UI in existence and
than having to use a dozen forums on a dozen different sites. People
who prefer mailing lists over forums usually don't do so because they
are old-fashioned but because they find forum UIs to constitute a
serious degradation of their user experience compared to their e-mail
client.
-- Niklas Matthies
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Tom Widmer <to...@googlemail.com>.
Dan North wrote:
> Hi folks.
>
> I've submitted a request to GMane <http://gmane.org/> to subscribe to the
> list. That way you will have an indexed, searchable, threaded, web-friendly
> version of the mail list.
>
> I'll let the list know once it's live.
I'm already reading this using Thunderbird on news.gmane.org, and have
done so for some time. The newsgroup is
gmane.comp.apache.incubator.ivy.user.
Tom
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by st...@xmission.com.
People may also be interested in MarkMail, ivy-user is archived there
as well: http://markmail.org/search/?q=+list%3Aorg.apache.ant.ivy-user
+1 for keeping a mailing list. My reasons are most of the ones that've
already been stated -- tracking a bunch of mail lists is much easier
than registering within and following a bunch of different forums.
Google Group's interface seems like the best of both worlds -- it
appears to be a forum, but it's really backed by a mailing list.
-Steve
Quoting Dan North <ta...@gmail.com>:
> Hi folks.
>
> I've submitted a request to GMane <http://gmane.org/> to subscribe to the
> list. That way you will have an indexed, searchable, threaded, web-friendly
> version of the mail list.
>
> I'll let the list know once it's live.
>
> Hope that helps,
> Dan
>
>
> 2008/6/23 Shawn Castrianni <Sh...@halliburton.com>:
>
>> 1. Don't most user forum implementations have an email feature so that you
>> can ask to be sent email of any posts? Everybody that likes email can
>> register for email notifications while everybody that likes user forums can
>> use the user forum directly. The user forum will satisfy both preferences.
>> 2. Why should everyone archive all the messages themselves duplicating and
>> wasting disk space when it could be done in one place by the owner's of the
>> user forum database?
>> 3. If the worry is that the owner of the user forum database will go away
>> and all of the messages are lost, then the same worry happens if relying on
>> other mailing lists archival sites when they go away.
>> 4. I would think a quality product would provide a means to transfer the
>> user forum database to someone else rather than just pulling the plug.
>>
>> ---
>> Shawn Castrianni
>> CM Chief Architect
>> Landmark
>> Halliburton Drilling, Evaluation and Digital Solutions Building 2
>> 2107 City West Blvd.
>> Houston, TX 77042
>> Work: 713-839-3086
>> Cell: 832-654-0888
>> Fax: 713-839-2758
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DuckPuppy [mailto:paikens@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 3:00 PM
>> To: ivy-user@ant.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Plea for a forum
>>
>> Actually, I don't think I could even track 50 different lists if
>> there's sufficient traffic on any of them. I don't have that kind of
>> time in my day. I have about 5, and I end up ignoring most of the
>> mails if the subject isn't pertinent to me at that moment.
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Matthias Kilian <ki...@outback.escape.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 07:50:48AM -0400, Patrick Aikens wrote:
>> >> At least the replies on this thread have been mostly civil - I was
>> >> worried
>> >> when I saw Kili's reply that we would have a string of troll-bait
>> >> like his.
>> >
>> > Please accept my apologies for my rude mail, that was yet another
>> > bad hair day (happens too often these days).
>> >
>> > For the topic (which is offtopic, so this will be my second and
>> > last reply on it): can you track 50 different web forums? I can't,
>> > but I can track 50 different mailing lists (and I'm not even using
>> > something like procmail -- it's all flooding my inbox).
>> >
>> > Ciao,
>> > Kili
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and
>> privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
>> review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.
>> If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information
>> for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
>> delete all copies of this message.
>>
>
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Dan North <ta...@gmail.com>.
Hi folks.
I've submitted a request to GMane <http://gmane.org/> to subscribe to the
list. That way you will have an indexed, searchable, threaded, web-friendly
version of the mail list.
I'll let the list know once it's live.
Hope that helps,
Dan
2008/6/23 Shawn Castrianni <Sh...@halliburton.com>:
> 1. Don't most user forum implementations have an email feature so that you
> can ask to be sent email of any posts? Everybody that likes email can
> register for email notifications while everybody that likes user forums can
> use the user forum directly. The user forum will satisfy both preferences.
> 2. Why should everyone archive all the messages themselves duplicating and
> wasting disk space when it could be done in one place by the owner's of the
> user forum database?
> 3. If the worry is that the owner of the user forum database will go away
> and all of the messages are lost, then the same worry happens if relying on
> other mailing lists archival sites when they go away.
> 4. I would think a quality product would provide a means to transfer the
> user forum database to someone else rather than just pulling the plug.
>
> ---
> Shawn Castrianni
> CM Chief Architect
> Landmark
> Halliburton Drilling, Evaluation and Digital Solutions Building 2
> 2107 City West Blvd.
> Houston, TX 77042
> Work: 713-839-3086
> Cell: 832-654-0888
> Fax: 713-839-2758
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DuckPuppy [mailto:paikens@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 3:00 PM
> To: ivy-user@ant.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Plea for a forum
>
> Actually, I don't think I could even track 50 different lists if
> there's sufficient traffic on any of them. I don't have that kind of
> time in my day. I have about 5, and I end up ignoring most of the
> mails if the subject isn't pertinent to me at that moment.
>
> On Jun 23, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Matthias Kilian <ki...@outback.escape.de>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 07:50:48AM -0400, Patrick Aikens wrote:
> >> At least the replies on this thread have been mostly civil - I was
> >> worried
> >> when I saw Kili's reply that we would have a string of troll-bait
> >> like his.
> >
> > Please accept my apologies for my rude mail, that was yet another
> > bad hair day (happens too often these days).
> >
> > For the topic (which is offtopic, so this will be my second and
> > last reply on it): can you track 50 different web forums? I can't,
> > but I can track 50 different mailing lists (and I'm not even using
> > something like procmail -- it's all flooding my inbox).
> >
> > Ciao,
> > Kili
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and
> privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
> review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.
> If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information
> for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
> delete all copies of this message.
>
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Niklas Matthies <ml...@nmhq.net>.
On Mon 2008-06-23 at 15:19h, Shawn Castrianni wrote on ivy-user:
> 1. Don't most user forum implementations have an email feature so
> that you can ask to be sent email of any posts? Everybody that
> likes email can register for email notifications while everybody
> that likes user forums can use the user forum directly. The user
> forum will satisfy both preferences.
In theory, a web forum that doubles as a mailing list server would be
possible. (After all, sites like Nabble almost do something like that.)
But the e-mail notifications sent out by existing forum software do
not even come close to the functionality of a real mailing list.
Two of the deal-breakers are that they don't contain References or
In-Reply-To headers that would allow the e-mail client to show a
threaded view, and they don't allow direct replies to either the forum
or the message author. There are other issues, but these are the most
important ones.
> 2. Why should everyone archive all the messages themselves
> duplicating and wasting disk space when it could be done in one
> place by the owner's of the user forum database?
Everyone doesn't have to, but they can if they prefer to.
Regarding the wasting of disk space: I have an archive of fourteen
years worth of mailing list mails that only takes up roughly 2GB.
Plain-text mails really don't consume that much space.
> 3. If the worry is that the owner of the user forum database will go
> away and all of the messages are lost, then the same worry happens
> if relying on other mailing lists archival sites when they go away.
That's correct.
> 4. I would think a quality product would provide a means to transfer
> the user forum database to someone else rather than just pulling the
> plug.
I've experienced several cases of "pulling the plug" or just resetting
with some new forum software, of leaving the archive at the old site
(so you had to search in multiple places) and of attempting to transfer
the data from one forum software to another but corrupting it in some
subtle or less subtle ways in the process. In theory it's certainly
possible, but in practice I wouldn't want having to rely on it.
-- Niklas Matthies
RE: Plea for a forum
Posted by Shawn Castrianni <Sh...@halliburton.com>.
1. Don't most user forum implementations have an email feature so that you can ask to be sent email of any posts? Everybody that likes email can register for email notifications while everybody that likes user forums can use the user forum directly. The user forum will satisfy both preferences.
2. Why should everyone archive all the messages themselves duplicating and wasting disk space when it could be done in one place by the owner's of the user forum database?
3. If the worry is that the owner of the user forum database will go away and all of the messages are lost, then the same worry happens if relying on other mailing lists archival sites when they go away.
4. I would think a quality product would provide a means to transfer the user forum database to someone else rather than just pulling the plug.
---
Shawn Castrianni
CM Chief Architect
Landmark
Halliburton Drilling, Evaluation and Digital Solutions Building 2
2107 City West Blvd.
Houston, TX 77042
Work: 713-839-3086
Cell: 832-654-0888
Fax: 713-839-2758
-----Original Message-----
From: DuckPuppy [mailto:paikens@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 3:00 PM
To: ivy-user@ant.apache.org
Subject: Re: Plea for a forum
Actually, I don't think I could even track 50 different lists if
there's sufficient traffic on any of them. I don't have that kind of
time in my day. I have about 5, and I end up ignoring most of the
mails if the subject isn't pertinent to me at that moment.
On Jun 23, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Matthias Kilian <ki...@outback.escape.de>
wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 07:50:48AM -0400, Patrick Aikens wrote:
>> At least the replies on this thread have been mostly civil - I was
>> worried
>> when I saw Kili's reply that we would have a string of troll-bait
>> like his.
>
> Please accept my apologies for my rude mail, that was yet another
> bad hair day (happens too often these days).
>
> For the topic (which is offtopic, so this will be my second and
> last reply on it): can you track 50 different web forums? I can't,
> but I can track 50 different mailing lists (and I'm not even using
> something like procmail -- it's all flooding my inbox).
>
> Ciao,
> Kili
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Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by DuckPuppy <pa...@gmail.com>.
Actually, I don't think I could even track 50 different lists if
there's sufficient traffic on any of them. I don't have that kind of
time in my day. I have about 5, and I end up ignoring most of the
mails if the subject isn't pertinent to me at that moment.
On Jun 23, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Matthias Kilian <ki...@outback.escape.de>
wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 07:50:48AM -0400, Patrick Aikens wrote:
>> At least the replies on this thread have been mostly civil - I was
>> worried
>> when I saw Kili's reply that we would have a string of troll-bait
>> like his.
>
> Please accept my apologies for my rude mail, that was yet another
> bad hair day (happens too often these days).
>
> For the topic (which is offtopic, so this will be my second and
> last reply on it): can you track 50 different web forums? I can't,
> but I can track 50 different mailing lists (and I'm not even using
> something like procmail -- it's all flooding my inbox).
>
> Ciao,
> Kili
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.
--- Xavier Hanin <xa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM,
> <pa...@targetgroup.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "For what it's worth, I'm pretty much in favour of
> mailing lists, and
> > in my ever so humble opinion I'm not a dinosaur,
> I'm quite the
> > hipster. For me the main argument is as stated -
> being able to track
> > lots of lists simultaneously. GMail does this
> excellently - I have a
> > special account which I only use for mailing
> lists, all mail gets
> > tagged when it comes in and optionally archived
> immediately"
> >
> > This may well be, but completely useless for those
> of us who do not have
> > access to web mail from work. THis is why we need
> a forum.
> >
> > Last comment on the thread, up to the IVY guys now
> to decide.
>
> Not really, Ivy being a project of the ASF, we have
> to follow the ASF rules.
> And the ASF is clear on the subject [1]:
> "Communication is done via mailing
> lists."
>
Thank you, Xavier. I was just about to post a link to
http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html,
but your link is actually a little clearer.
> That being said, I also like the mailing lists for
> reasons listed by others.
> IMO tools like google group offer the best of both
> worlds. But maybe the
> best would simply be mail 2.0 [2] [3]
>
One would really think that between Nabble and
Markmail all the other arguments against mailing lists
are moot. Markmail is really nice.
-Matt
> Xavier
>
> [1]
>
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#communication
> [2]
>
http://www.jroller.com/robertburrelldonkin/entry/mail2_0_smtp_vs_blogging
> [3] http://code.google.com/p/rmep/
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Target
> > www.targetgroup.net
> >
> > Target is a trading name of Target Group Limited,
> > registered in England and Wales No. 1208137
> > Registered office: Target House, Cowbridge Road
> East, Cardiff CF11 9AU
> >
> >
>
**********************************************************************
> > DISCLAIMER.
> > This message is intended only for the use of the
> Addressee and may
> > contain information that is PRIVILEGED and
> CONFIDENTIAL.
> > If you are not the intended recipient you must not
> copy,
> > distribute or take any action or reliance upon it.
> > The content of this message may also contain
> personal
> > views of an employee of this company and does
> > not necessarily represent the view of the company.
> >
>
**********************************************************************
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> > It has also been scanned by MAILsweeper to enforce
> our e-mail
> > policy. If you have any concerns or comments about
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_____________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the
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> proactive email security
> > service working around the clock, around the
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>
>
>
> --
> Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
> http://xhab.blogspot.com/
> http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
> http://www.xoocode.org/
>
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Xavier Hanin <xa...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM, <pa...@targetgroup.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> "For what it's worth, I'm pretty much in favour of mailing lists, and
> in my ever so humble opinion I'm not a dinosaur, I'm quite the
> hipster. For me the main argument is as stated - being able to track
> lots of lists simultaneously. GMail does this excellently - I have a
> special account which I only use for mailing lists, all mail gets
> tagged when it comes in and optionally archived immediately"
>
> This may well be, but completely useless for those of us who do not have
> access to web mail from work. THis is why we need a forum.
>
> Last comment on the thread, up to the IVY guys now to decide.
Not really, Ivy being a project of the ASF, we have to follow the ASF rules.
And the ASF is clear on the subject [1]: "Communication is done via mailing
lists."
That being said, I also like the mailing lists for reasons listed by others.
IMO tools like google group offer the best of both worlds. But maybe the
best would simply be mail 2.0 [2] [3]
Xavier
[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#communication
[2]
http://www.jroller.com/robertburrelldonkin/entry/mail2_0_smtp_vs_blogging
[3] http://code.google.com/p/rmep/
>
>
>
>
> Target
> www.targetgroup.net
>
> Target is a trading name of Target Group Limited,
> registered in England and Wales No. 1208137
> Registered office: Target House, Cowbridge Road East, Cardiff CF11 9AU
>
> **********************************************************************
> DISCLAIMER.
> This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may
> contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL.
> If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy,
> distribute or take any action or reliance upon it.
> The content of this message may also contain personal
> views of an employee of this company and does
> not necessarily represent the view of the company.
> **********************************************************************
> This message has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus.
> It has also been scanned by MAILsweeper to enforce our e-mail
> policy. If you have any concerns or comments about the content
> of this message, please e-mail support@targetgroup.net.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
> Security System. For more information on a proactive email security
> service working around the clock, around the globe, visit
> http://www.messagelabs.com
>
--
Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
http://xhab.blogspot.com/
http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
http://www.xoocode.org/
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Jose Noheda <jo...@gmail.com>.
+1 to mailing lists
Glassfish implements a nice feature though where you can post in the forum
or the mailing list and it's available to both. so you end having the best
of both worlds
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM, <pa...@targetgroup.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> "For what it's worth, I'm pretty much in favour of mailing lists, and
> in my ever so humble opinion I'm not a dinosaur, I'm quite the
> hipster. For me the main argument is as stated - being able to track
> lots of lists simultaneously. GMail does this excellently - I have a
> special account which I only use for mailing lists, all mail gets
> tagged when it comes in and optionally archived immediately"
>
> This may well be, but completely useless for those of us who do not have
> access to web mail from work. THis is why we need a forum.
>
> Last comment on the thread, up to the IVY guys now to decide.
>
>
>
> Target
> www.targetgroup.net
>
> Target is a trading name of Target Group Limited,
> registered in England and Wales No. 1208137
> Registered office: Target House, Cowbridge Road East, Cardiff CF11 9AU
>
> **********************************************************************
> DISCLAIMER.
> This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may
> contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL.
> If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy,
> distribute or take any action or reliance upon it.
> The content of this message may also contain personal
> views of an employee of this company and does
> not necessarily represent the view of the company.
> **********************************************************************
> This message has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus.
> It has also been scanned by MAILsweeper to enforce our e-mail
> policy. If you have any concerns or comments about the content
> of this message, please e-mail support@targetgroup.net.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
> Security System. For more information on a proactive email security
> service working around the clock, around the globe, visit
> http://www.messagelabs.com
>
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by pa...@targetgroup.net.
"For what it's worth, I'm pretty much in favour of mailing lists, and
in my ever so humble opinion I'm not a dinosaur, I'm quite the
hipster. For me the main argument is as stated - being able to track
lots of lists simultaneously. GMail does this excellently - I have a
special account which I only use for mailing lists, all mail gets
tagged when it comes in and optionally archived immediately"
This may well be, but completely useless for those of us who do not have
access to web mail from work. THis is why we need a forum.
Last comment on the thread, up to the IVY guys now to decide.
Target
www.targetgroup.net
Target is a trading name of Target Group Limited,
registered in England and Wales No. 1208137
Registered office: Target House, Cowbridge Road East, Cardiff CF11 9AU
**********************************************************************
DISCLAIMER.
This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may
contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy,
distribute or take any action or reliance upon it.
The content of this message may also contain personal
views of an employee of this company and does
not necessarily represent the view of the company.
**********************************************************************
This message has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus.
It has also been scanned by MAILsweeper to enforce our e-mail
policy. If you have any concerns or comments about the content
of this message, please e-mail support@targetgroup.net.
**********************************************************************
_____________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System. For more information on a proactive email security
service working around the clock, around the globe, visit
http://www.messagelabs.com
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Colin Fleming <co...@gmail.com>.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty much in favour of mailing lists, and
in my ever so humble opinion I'm not a dinosaur, I'm quite the
hipster. For me the main argument is as stated - being able to track
lots of lists simultaneously. GMail does this excellently - I have a
special account which I only use for mailing lists, all mail gets
tagged when it comes in and optionally archived immediately. It
basically enables me to turn a mailing list into a forum, whereas the
opposite is almost never possible.
As for being a means to achieve more traffic - maybe, I'm not sure.
I'd hate to see the traffic here split between a forum and the list,
because then I'd have to check both, and realistically it would
greatly reduce my chances of seeing any particular message.
Cheers,
Colin
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Matthias Kilian <ki...@outback.escape.de>.
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 07:50:48AM -0400, Patrick Aikens wrote:
> At least the replies on this thread have been mostly civil - I was worried
> when I saw Kili's reply that we would have a string of troll-bait like his.
Please accept my apologies for my rude mail, that was yet another
bad hair day (happens too often these days).
For the topic (which is offtopic, so this will be my second and
last reply on it): can you track 50 different web forums? I can't,
but I can track 50 different mailing lists (and I'm not even using
something like procmail -- it's all flooding my inbox).
Ciao,
Kili
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Patrick Aikens <pa...@gmail.com>.
Not really - personally, I dislike Nabble greatly. Terrible interface. I'm
one of the ones who would prefer a forum to the mailing list - mailing lists
are just a dead method of collaboration. I fail to see anything that sets a
mailing list above a forum, unless it's to feed the laziness or
forgetfulness of people who have to have the topics come to them instead of
the other way around. I have GMail, and it's certainly not a replacement
for a decent forum - even with it's unlimited space, it's just silly to
think that ALL the Ivy users with GMail or an IMAP account should store
their own local cache of messages so they can search them later. I clean
out all mailing list traffic on a regular basis - I don't have any Ivy
mailing list posts more than a week old. I don't want it cluttering up hits
in my personal mail when I search it, and I certainly don't want to have to
include search modifiers EVERY time I search my mail to omit all the mailing
lists. I'll fall back on *shudder* Nabble if I need them again.
At least the replies on this thread have been mostly civil - I was worried
when I saw Kili's reply that we would have a string of troll-bait like his.
On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Colin Fleming <co...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> "Spammed" is a bit strong given that you signed up for the mailing list :-)
>
> What's wrong with Nabble, exactly? It's basically a forum, isn't it?
>
> Cheers,
> Colin
>
--
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Colin Fleming <co...@gmail.com>.
"Spammed" is a bit strong given that you signed up for the mailing list :-)
What's wrong with Nabble, exactly? It's basically a forum, isn't it?
Cheers,
Colin
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Paul Newport <ne...@googlemail.com>.
Web mail is blocked at work ; ...so I do have to have two accounts.
Asking the question about fora in here though is bound to be a bit
skewed, because a lot of the fora fans will have not even bothered to
join the mailing list.
I am now going to unsubscribe for the weekend so that I don't get
spammed twice but the mailing list :-)
Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Jim White <ji...@pagesmiths.com>.
I prefer forums myself because they can have good archive support.
But having been involved with OSS development for a long time I'm very
aware that most core developers prefer to deal with email and simply use
good (or at least familiar) tools to manage the complexity.
I'm fairly certain the reason forums are refused by many is because each
one has a different interface and when you're dealing with as many as a
dozen or two lists the prospect of using a different UI for each one is
appalling.
But just because there is a mailing list doesn't mean you can't have a
forum-style web interface. There are several web services that turn
public mailing lists into web forums. Nabble, Mail-archive, and
MarkMail cover many lists including ivy-user.
http://www.nabble.com/ivy-user-f18383.html
http://markmail.org/browse/org.apache.ant.ivy-user
As for the email account home/work problem, just get a GMail account for
that purpose and that will turn any mailing list into a web forum.
Jim
Paul Newport wrote:
> Looking through the mail archive, there was a thread asking for a
> forum instead of a mailing list.
>
> I've started looking at IVY recently and have had to subscribe at work
> with my work email address, and at home with my home one, which is
> somewhat frustrating.
>
> Mailing lists may have been OK years ago, but I seriously believe you
> are shooting yourselves in the foot by having a mailing list instead
> of forum. Look at the forum used by the Spring Project, or the JBoss
> crew, highly active, loads of users and traffic, easy to search, can
> log in whether at home or at work.
>
> Also some people's work IT managers like to monitor email traffic
> (don't you love 'em) and frown upon constant emails coming in from a
> mailing list.
>
RE: Plea for a forum
Posted by "Brown, Carlton" <Ca...@compucredit.com>.
I'm kind of neutral on the issue, but it's worth noting that a forums
are also fairly prone to getting blocked by modern content proxies,
which are much more sophisticated at detecting and blacklisting any form
of online communications.
I just register a gmail address in addition to my corporate address.
Corporate is what I use for communication, the gmail is for searching,
online archival, and POP retrieval if necessary. Gmail is much better
suited for this purpose than Nabble and other mediocre mail aggregators,
IMO.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Newport [mailto:newportmeister@googlemail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:32 AM
To: ivy-user@ant.apache.org
Subject: Plea for a forum
Looking through the mail archive, there was a thread asking for a forum
instead of a mailing list.
I've started looking at IVY recently and have had to subscribe at work
with my work email address, and at home with my home one, which is
somewhat frustrating.
Mailing lists may have been OK years ago, but I seriously believe you
are shooting yourselves in the foot by having a mailing list instead of
forum. Look at the forum used by the Spring Project, or the JBoss crew,
highly active, loads of users and traffic, easy to search, can log in
whether at home or at work.
Also some people's work IT managers like to monitor email traffic (don't
you love 'em) and frown upon constant emails coming in from a mailing
list.
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Re: Plea for a forum
Posted by Matthias Kilian <ki...@outback.escape.de>.
On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 10:31:58AM +0100, Paul Newport wrote:
> I've started looking at IVY recently and have had to subscribe at work
> with my work email address, and at home with my home one, which is
> somewhat frustrating.
Get a mail account with web access, or some IMAP account. Or use
one of the fine mailing list archives for reading and searching.
> Mailing lists may have been OK years ago, but I seriously believe you
> are shooting yourselves in the foot by having a mailing list instead
> of forum. Look at the forum used by the Spring Project, or the JBoss
> crew, highly active, loads of users and traffic, easy to search, can
> log in whether at home or at work.
Web forums are just inefficient and dictate the way you're using them.
> Also some people's work IT managers like to monitor email traffic
> (don't you love 'em) and frown upon constant emails coming in from a
> mailing list.
Those people shouldn't be called IT managers. Blocking their own
developers, build managers, etc. from accessing valuable technical
resources on the net (be it email, be it the web) is so incredibly
stupid. A company with such a management *deserves* to have no
success at all.
Ciao,
Kili