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Posted to users@spamassassin.apache.org by Raymond Dijkxhoorn <ra...@prolocation.net> on 2009/12/01 00:51:38 UTC
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Hi!
>> I'm investigating it further but what appears is that the IP also
>> failed to close the connection with a QUIT.
> OK, but it really is a legitimate mail server, so shouldn't be listed.
So if you have a crappy connection towards your mailserver Marc you can
get listed, thats rather funny, and annoying. Connections do break also
when not running a botnet... pfff....
Bye,
Raymond.
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Michael Monnerie <mi...@is.it-management.at>.
On Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2009 Raymond Dijkxhoorn wrote:
> So if you have a crappy connection towards your mailserver Marc you
> can get listed, thats rather funny, and annoying. Connections do
> break also when not running a botnet... pfff....
>
It's not that you get listed, but all of your customers who want to send
you mail :-(
BTW, another FP:
http://ipadmin.junkemailfilter.com/remove.php?ip=62.179.121.43
mfg zmi
--
// Michael Monnerie, Ing.BSc ----- http://it-management.at
// Tel: 0660 / 415 65 31 .network.your.ideas.
// PGP Key: "curl -s http://zmi.at/zmi.asc | gpg --import"
// Fingerprint: AC19 F9D5 36ED CD8A EF38 500E CE14 91F7 1C12 09B4
// Keyserver: wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net Key-ID: 1C1209B4
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Michael Monnerie <mi...@is.it-management.at>.
On Dienstag, 15. Dezember 2009 Marc Perkel wrote:
> Get a modern email client.
While I *can* read HTML with my client, I set *text* to be the default
view, as it's usually more readable.
It's really a very simple setting to send at least *both* html *and*
text. I'd prefer text only, to save those bytes and the environment, but
I don't bother too much.
BTW: 80.120.179.155 is mx.lk-oe.at, which is the agricultural chamber of
Austria. I don't know if yellow or white would be suitable, I guess
white.
--
mit freundlichen Grüssen,
Michael Monnerie, Ing. BSc
it-management Internet Services
http://it-management.at
Tel: 0660 / 415 65 31
// Wir haben zwei Häuser zu verkaufen:
// http://zmi.at/langegg/
// http://willhaben.at/iad/realestate/object?adId=15306857
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by jdow <jd...@earthlink.net>.
From: "LuKreme" <kr...@kreme.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 2009/December/15 07:19
> On 15-Dec-2009, at 06:11, Kai Schaetzl wrote:
>> Mark, can you *please* stop sending HTML-only messages to the list?
>
> And just in case the response is "no one else complains"
>
> Yes. Stop doing this. Bad list subscriber. Bad! Bad!
Very much yes. Jdow stomps the bad hand with her spiked heels.
{^_-}
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Karl Pearson <ka...@ourldsfamily.com>.
On Tue, December 15, 2009 9:31 am, Marc Perkel wrote:
>
>
> LuKreme wrote: On 15-Dec-2009, at 06:11, Kai Schaetzl wrote:
> Mark, can you *please* stop sending HTML-only messages to the list?
> And just in case the response is "no one else complains" Yes.
> Stop doing this. Bad list subscriber. Bad! Bad!
> Get a modern email client. Are you using a KSR33 teletype on a 110 baud
> modem?
>
Sorry, modern isn't good. I manage an email group server, and HTML/MIME
email really messes up the archives, so I've installed plugins that
strip it out, thus making the archives usable. Who wants to scan through
thousands of bytes of uuencoding to get to the text they are searching
for? No one.
Your email is always put in a separate folder from the rest, and usually
I just delete them, so if you have something important to say, I will
usually miss it.
Quit sending HTML email. It's very annoying, and if marketing professors
are right, for every ONE person that complains, there are probably 20+
others who say nothing.
---
Karl Pearson
Karlp@ourldsfamily.com
Owner/Administrator of the sites at
http://ourldsfamily.com
---
"To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it;
to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it."
---
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have
for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
--Benjamin Franklin
---
Prayer for Obama, et al: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ps/109/8#8 (~)
---
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>.
On tir 15 dec 2009 17:31:54 CET, Marc Perkel wrote
> Get a modern email client. Are you using a KSR33 teletype on a 110
> baud modem?
why are you offtopic now ?
--
xpoint http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by LuKreme <kr...@kreme.com>.
On 15-Dec-2009, at 09:31, Marc Perkel wrote:
> Get a modern email client. Are you using a KSR33 teletype on a 110 baud modem?
I have a modern email client that can handle HTML email just fine.
Keep the damn html kruft off the mailing lists. It's rude, it's inconsiderate, and it's not safe. And your messages are especially annoying since you are violating standards by not sending a plain text portion at all.
Seems like you need to upgrade your client to one that works properly.
--
'And I suppose you know what sound is made by one hand clapping, do you?' said the holy man nastily.
YES. CL. THE OTHER HAND MAKES THE AP. --Soul Music
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Lucio Chiappetti <lu...@lambrate.inaf.it>.
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Charles Gregory wrote:
> And even my antiquated Pine install correctly interprets your HTML-only
> mail and displays it properly.
My more modern (and still my favourite mail client) Alpine may do it too,
nevertheless I find HTML mail (and specially those messages duplicated in
plain text and HTML) an annoyance and a waste of space, I even have
procmail rules to strip them out
http://sax.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/Procmail/noquotenohtml.html
And still ... is it not considered a spam signature ?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy)
For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail
/\ http://arc.pasp.de/
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Charles Gregory <cg...@hwcn.org>.
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Marc Perkel wrote:
> Get a modern email client. Are you using a KSR33 teletype on a 110 baud
> modem?
To be fair, I must admit that there comes a point in the technology curve
when we must let go of the oldest/plainest tech in favor of new ways of
doing things. And even my antiquated Pine install correctly interprets
your HTML-only mail and displays it properly.
That being said, I consider it one of the greatest evils of major software
developers to 'push' new standards, and convince their users that it is
'natural', 'expected' and not at all RUDE to be demanding that everyone
else upgrade to the new 'standard' that this software company has chosen,
just as soon as they invent it. Perhaps after a few years, when other
vendors have had a chance to add the new standard, sure.
So Marc, with how 'old' HTML mail now is, it may indeed be fair/right to
suggest that people upgrade their mail clients to an HTML-capable version.
But at the same time, when dealing with System Admins, and diverse
systems, we must keep in mind that some people on this list are *stuck*
with systems and software that they have no *authorization* to update, and
so it is equally fair, or perhaps even more so, to ask you to tweak an
option that is probably just a 'checkbox' on your mail client, rather than
(unintentionally) taunt these people with a suggestion to upgrade that
they cannot follow, and then make them *live* with whatever inconvenience
that HTML-only mail brings them.
Think about it. Your modem analogy is more apt than you realize. I have
dialup customers (ANY speed) who are always having problems with people
sending them oversize e-mails from their broadband connections. There
really NEEDS to be significant consideration for when people have
different technology levels..... :)
- Charles
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by LuKreme <kr...@kreme.com>.
On Dec 15, 2009, at 11:32, Marc Perkel <ma...@perkel.com> wrote:
> If you can't handle HTML then filter it on your end.
I think instead I'll simply filter you.
>
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Friday 18 December 2009, jdow wrote:
>From: "Gene Heskett" <ge...@verizon.net>
>Sent: Thursday, 2009/December/17 21:21
[...]
>
>Now, if you want to "get me rolling" about an incompetent computer
>company just mention GRiD and their Compass not really a laptop computer.
>Even the bugs were themselves buggy. (We had to own 6 of them to keep 5
>running most of the time. The displays went out regularly. And the OS
>would lock up at peculiar times "just because it felt like it" when
>trying to talk to an HPIB device. (It had built in HPIB to talk to its
>disk drive etc.) Wikipiddle accuses it of being a laptop. All I can do
>is snicker about that assertion. Then they continue the phrase to call
>it a computer. Admittedly it was, on brief occasions, a computer. But
>it spent too much time emulating a doorstop to be worthy of its price.
>
>{^_^}
>
ROTFL, thanks Joanne.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
There is something in the pang of change
More than the heart can bear,
Unhappiness remembering happiness.
-- Euripides
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Friday 18 December 2009, John Hardin wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> I got to work for several months as a bench tech for an outfit building
>> the first pair of the then smallest tv cameras in the world.
>>
>> Later I found out that one of those civies was Jacques Cousteau,
>>
>> 3 hours later had a contract to put those two cameras on the Trieste as
>> soon as we could get the pressure cases built. Those were headed for
>> the bottom of the Challenger Deep, 37,000+ feet in the big pond. Short
>> story, we did, and they worked.
>
>And I think Gene wins. Bravo! That's a cool story.
Thanks John. I have in my 75 years of history, several examples of being in
the right place, at the right time, due purely by serendipity. But I think
we have wasted enough of this lists tolerance for off-topic posts by now.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
Who is John Galt?
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by jdow <jd...@earthlink.net>.
From: "Gene Heskett" <ge...@verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, 2009/December/17 21:21
> My impression of the (DEC) field engineers knowledge was that it was nil,
> other
> than the rote stuff, DEC had taught him. And I suspect Joanne would back
> me
> up on that. Those guys couldn't replace a stuck output cuz it had an open
> collector in a 7406 with a gun to their head, no idea how to troubleshoot
> to
> the critters part level with a good scope, and little or no idea which end
> of > a soldering iron got hot. He drug out a wood burning kit from ungar
> once to
> do something and I unplugged it 3 times before he got the message that he
> wasn't going to use that piece of blow every chip in the building crap on
> my
> watch. I went and got my bench iron, a fairly fancy, grounded tip,
> variable
> temp controlled iron and a roll of silver bearing solder and did it my
> self. > And he was surprised as all get out when a pair of 5" curved nose
> suture
> clamps came off my T-shirt collar and grabbed that stuff about 10x tighter
> than he would ever get with his worn out radio shack special long noses.
> Ditto the pair of 4" flush cut diagonals I used to clean up the surplus
> leads > on the other side of the board. Not to mention the alky and
> q-tips used to
> clean up after myself. He/they had just enough knowledge to be dangerous.
>
Gene, it's HP 2100S computers that I know. And I was able to accurately
diagnose at least one problem before the substitute tech figured it out.
He looked at me with "a strange expression on his face." The usual guy
had not prepared him. The usual fellow and I had a good rapport. I learned
to describe problems well enough he could diagnose them quickly and fix
them. (Aside from the digital tape drives in those old 8500 consoles the
basic setup was quite reliable. Even the Versatec wet printers did their
job very well on simple routine maintenance.)
I have experience on DEC PDP-11 machines and VAXen. But it's limited.
Now, if you want to "get me rolling" about an incompetent computer
company just mention GRiD and their Compass not really a laptop computer.
Even the bugs were themselves buggy. (We had to own 6 of them to keep 5
running most of the time. The displays went out regularly. And the OS
would lock up at peculiar times "just because it felt like it" when
trying to talk to an HPIB device. (It had built in HPIB to talk to its
disk drive etc.) Wikipiddle accuses it of being a laptop. All I can do
is snicker about that assertion. Then they continue the phrase to call
it a computer. Admittedly it was, on brief occasions, a computer. But
it spent too much time emulating a doorstop to be worthy of its price.
{^_^}
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by John Hardin <jh...@impsec.org>.
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I got to work for several months as a bench tech for an outfit building
> the first pair of the then smallest tv cameras in the world.
> Later I found out that one of those civies was Jacques Cousteau,
> 3 hours later had a contract to put those two cameras on the Trieste as
> soon as we could get the pressure cases built. Those were headed for
> the bottom of the Challenger Deep, 37,000+ feet in the big pond. Short
> story, we did, and they worked.
And I think Gene wins. Bravo! That's a cool story.
--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bother," said Pooh as he struggled with /etc/sendmail.cf, "it never
does quite what I want. I wish Christopher Robin was here."
-- Peter da Silva in a.s.r
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
7 days until Christmas
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Thursday 17 December 2009, R-Elists wrote:
>> The absolute, without a doubt, biggest POS I ever had to live
>> with was an
>> 11/23 that had more hdwe bugs than all issues of windows
>> combined since DOS5.0. Dec field engineers changed every
>> piece in that thing except the frame rail with the serial
>> number and all they managed to do was convert a daily crash
>> into an every 10 minute crash.
>
><snip>
>
>> --
>> Cheers, Gene
>
>wow, Gene, that is a bummer, sincerely sorry to hear about that episode...
>
>i was just a wee tiny lad when you (cough) more experienced folks were
> using tin cans & string...
>
We were just a slight more advanced than that. I went to Kalifornia to make
my million and didn't, but that's another story. While there in '60 I got to
work for several months as a bench tech for an outfit building the first pair
of the then smallest tv cameras in the world. B&W of course, 2.5" in diameter
& about a foot long out of the case. We had the breadboard working fairly
well but it was ugly as sin with parts flying out of it nearly everywhere.
About 10 minutes after I arrived one morning the front door opened up and a
couple of civilians plus about 6 copies of some navy folks with silver & gold
on their shoulders walked in. Wanted to see it work. In the dark. So as it
was showing a good pix of the shop area on a monitor, Joe picked it up,
cleared one side of one of the benches drawers out, set it in gently and
closed the drawer on the coax cable that was both video and power supply. 3
seconds later the auto target finally got there and a very nice pix of the
wood grain of the drawers plywood back was showing on the monitor, slightly
out of focus. Joe offered to trim the focus but the silvered gent said it
won't be necessary, but do you have an office with a few chairs so we can
talk. Later I found out that one of those civies was Jacques Cousteau, who
was one of the 2 guys in that 6 foot pressure ball in Feb '61 when that dive
was made.
We did, and 3 hours later had a contract to put those two cameras on the
Trieste as soon as we could get the pressure cases built. Those were headed
for the bottom of the Challenger Deep, 37,000+ feet in the big pond. Short
story, we did, and they worked. And don't let anyone tell you water is not
compressible. The Trieste ran on big banks of sears die hard batteries and
were not protected from the pressure. Each cell had a small extension neck
screwed into it, and a small balloon with about a cup of battery acid in it
was snapped on. A wire cage kept the balloons from being carried too far by
the currents. One of the pix they brought back showed one rack of batteries,
with the balloons either out of sight or only about 1/4" high above the
neck, the squeeze of 17,000 psi was on. The batteries didn't care, they Just
Worked(TM).
>;->
>
>did 11/23 meant it was 23 months off the engineering board?
>
At this late date, I haven't a clue exactly what the 11/23 meant. That was a
weird beastie, the app was written in pascal, and it was recompiled at boot
time. So they could call it up, upload a new version of the app, and reboot
it as they were logging out. The reboot of course took several minutes, so
they had to choose a time when the schedule was empty for an hour or more
when they did that. We had a vt-220 that stayed logged in all the time so we
could make emergency schedule changes, but that turned out to be no job at
all, and when it was the vt-220 that failed, the HOT went up in smoke, was
when I re-wrote the vt-100 proggy we had for the coco3, and turned it into a
vt-220. That was fairly easy cuz the only real change in the protocol was
the esc sequence, it became a full 8 bit byte but 99% of the rest of it was
identical.
>i dont recall ever having an issue with DEC stuff yet maybe that was
> because they had pocket burns up to the elbow on their arms ?
My impression of the field engineers knowledge was that it was nil, other
than the rote stuff, DEC had taught him. And I suspect Joanne would back me
up on that. Those guys couldn't replace a stuck output cuz it had an open
collector in a 7406 with a gun to their head, no idea how to troubleshoot to
the critters part level with a good scope, and little or no idea which end of
a soldering iron got hot. He drug out a wood burning kit from ungar once to
do something and I unplugged it 3 times before he got the message that he
wasn't going to use that piece of blow every chip in the building crap on my
watch. I went and got my bench iron, a fairly fancy, grounded tip, variable
temp controlled iron and a roll of silver bearing solder and did it my self.
And he was surprised as all get out when a pair of 5" curved nose suture
clamps came off my T-shirt collar and grabbed that stuff about 10x tighter
than he would ever get with his worn out radio shack special long noses.
Ditto the pair of 4" flush cut diagonals I used to clean up the surplus leads
on the other side of the board. Not to mention the alky and q-tips used to
clean up after myself. He/they had just enough knowledge to be dangerous.
> - rh
>
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
The best way to keep your friends is not to give them away.
RE: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by R-Elists <li...@abbacomm.net>.
> The absolute, without a doubt, biggest POS I ever had to live
> with was an
> 11/23 that had more hdwe bugs than all issues of windows
> combined since DOS5.0. Dec field engineers changed every
> piece in that thing except the frame rail with the serial
> number and all they managed to do was convert a daily crash
> into an every 10 minute crash.
<snip>
> --
> Cheers, Gene
wow, Gene, that is a bummer, sincerely sorry to hear about that episode...
i was just a wee tiny lad when you (cough) more experienced folks were using
tin cans & string...
;->
did 11/23 meant it was 23 months off the engineering board?
i dont recall ever having an issue with DEC stuff yet maybe that was because
they had pocket burns up to the elbow on their arms ?
- rh
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Thursday 17 December 2009, R-Elists wrote:
>as far as museum pieces go, i submit that my first was an Apple 2E if i
>remember correctly..
>
>BRUN BEERRUN
>
>was an interesting game, or something to that effect... ;-)
>
>...and (snore) i also programmed a helicopter to fly across the top and
> drop a bomb on a "space invader" and go boom...
>
>wow huh?
>
>anyways, my FAVORITE was always the VAX !!!
>
>DEC VAX 11/785 to be more concise... although 11/780's and 11/750's and
>microVAXes were fun to play, errr work with too...
>
The absolute, without a doubt, biggest POS I ever had to live with was an
11/23 that had more hdwe bugs than all issues of windows combined since
DOS5.0. Dec field engineers changed every piece in that thing except the
frame rail with the serial number and all they managed to do was convert a
daily crash into an every 10 minute crash. When it started costing us money
because we were selling tooth paste instead of dog food when a switch didn't
get done, I blew up, and before I was off the phone, the head computer guy at
CBS was packing up his test mule to send to me that he used to check stuff
out with before sending it out to the affiliates. We got the legal dicks at
DEC at accept that CBS and WDTV were trading seriel numbers so we still had a
support contract. A contract which at the time I considered worthless, but
at the time, the docs on that 11/23 were not for sale except possibly at
gunpoint in the parking lot, so my hands were also rather effectively tied.
Hugo's machine worked flawlessly, but because the machine I sent Hugo was a
genuine lemon, he could no longer fix other stations problems & CBS was
forced into replacing the whole maryann at all affiliates with an industrial
IBM, and an artic card. So Dec's ineptness at honoring a service contract at
a single affiliate out in the WV mountains cost CBS at least $300K, and that,
multiplied a few times no doubt contributed to the demise of DEC. Couldn't
have happened to nicer folks. Field office was 30 miles away in Morgantown
but they often didn't show up in the same week they were called. Funny
thing, the the service contract said 4 hour response.
They treated us like stray dogs AFAIAC.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
Ad astra per aspera.
[To the stars by aspiration.]
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Bowie Bailey <Bo...@BUC.com>.
R-Elists wrote:
> as far as museum pieces go, i submit that my first was an Apple 2E if i
> remember correctly..
>
> BRUN BEERRUN
>
> was an interesting game, or something to that effect... ;-)
>
> ...and (snore) i also programmed a helicopter to fly across the top and drop
> a bomb on a "space invader" and go boom...
>
> wow huh?
>
My first computer was an Apple II+. Black case made by Bell & Howell.
It had a cassette drive and connected to the TV for video. It had a
couple of paddle controllers that we used to play Breakout and Pong. I
have no idea how much (little) memory it had. I think we eventually
added a 5.25 floppy to it. I remember typing in games in Basic from a
couple of books full of Basic games.
--
Bowie
RE: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by R-Elists <li...@abbacomm.net>.
as far as museum pieces go, i submit that my first was an Apple 2E if i
remember correctly..
BRUN BEERRUN
was an interesting game, or something to that effect... ;-)
...and (snore) i also programmed a helicopter to fly across the top and drop
a bomb on a "space invader" and go boom...
wow huh?
anyways, my FAVORITE was always the VAX !!!
DEC VAX 11/785 to be more concise... although 11/780's and 11/750's and
microVAXes were fun to play, errr work with too...
set proc /priv=ALL
eh?
- rh
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Thursday 17 December 2009, jdow wrote:
>From: "Chris Hoogendyk" <ho...@bio.umass.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, 2009/December/17 10:07
>
>> Steve Lindemann wrote:
>>>>> I think I still have a Model B in the loft somewhere...
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> I've seen CP/M mentioned but no mention of the venerable Kaypro! Oh
>>> those were the days.... 8^)
>>>
>>> But my first digital computer (at work) was a Raytheon 703 with paper
>>> tape to load programs (after you fingered in the boot) and output was
>>> the lights on the front panel. I also worked on analog computers for
>>> a number of years, it wasn't so much programming as re-engineering. I
>>> actually do miss those days.
>>
>> A skilled practitioner could get 5 digits out of this baby:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule (I still have the yellow one).
>> If you needed more rigorous but still relatively easy and quick, you
>> would use this: http://ljkrakauer.com/CRC99ph/CRCbook.htm.
>
>I still have my K&E Log Log Duplex Decitrig. It still works. And it's
>still aligned despite it's being bamboo.
So do I, but mine is alu, and corrosion over about 50 years has taken its
toll on how smoothly it operates. But like yours, it still worrks, just
needs a shot of wd-40 occasionally.
>Learning to calculate with slide rules is an important step to being
>numerate. You can forget actually using the slide rule. But being able
>to hammer out answers on it for complex problems leads to a really good
>ability to estimate answers. That way when the nice digital CPU coughs
>up a digital hairball answer to a problem you can see the error at a
>glance.
Yup, great teacher, for a kid with a grammer school education way back when
the 50L6-gt was a brand new tube.
>{^_^}
>
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
Q: How does a Unix guru have sex?
A: unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;umount;sleep
-- unknown source
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by David B Funk <db...@engineering.uiowa.edu>.
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009, jdow wrote:
> I still have my K&E Log Log Duplex Decitrig. It still works. And it's
> still aligned despite it's being bamboo.
Ah, you've got the newer cheaper model. I inherited mine from my father
(40's vintage) and it has a rosewood core.
In my freshman year of college, (1970) we had to take a slide-rulesmanship
class, given pages of number problems were graded on speed and accuracy
of working those problems (shades of grade school ;).
> Learning to calculate with slide rules is an important step to being
> numerate. You can forget actually using the slide rule. But being able
> to hammer out answers on it for complex problems leads to a really good
> ability to estimate answers. That way when the nice digital CPU coughs
> up a digital hairball answer to a problem you can see the error at a
> glance.
That's because the slide rule doesn't give you the exponent, only the
mantissa. So part of that slide-rulesmanship class was learning to
do the exponent calculations in your head rapidly and accurately.
Great for looking at gobs of numbers and figuring out the OOM of
the answer.
--
Dave Funk University of Iowa
<dbfunk (at) engineering.uiowa.edu> College of Engineering
319/335-5751 FAX: 319/384-0549 1256 Seamans Center
Sys_admin/Postmaster/cell_admin Iowa City, IA 52242-1527
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
Better is not better, 'standard' is better. B{
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Chris Hoogendyk <ho...@bio.umass.edu>.
jdow wrote:
> From: "Chris Hoogendyk" <ho...@bio.umass.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, 2009/December/17 10:07
>>
>> Steve Lindemann wrote:
>>>>> I think I still have a Model B in the loft somewhere...
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>
>>>
>>> I've seen CP/M mentioned but no mention of the venerable Kaypro! Oh
>>> those were the days.... 8^)
>>>
>>> But my first digital computer (at work) was a Raytheon 703 with
>>> paper tape to load programs (after you fingered in the boot) and
>>> output was the lights on the front panel. I also worked on analog
>>> computers for a number of years, it wasn't so much programming as
>>> re-engineering. I actually do miss those days.
>>
>> A skilled practitioner could get 5 digits out of this baby:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule (I still have the yellow
>> one). If you needed more rigorous but still relatively easy and
>> quick, you would use this: http://ljkrakauer.com/CRC99ph/CRCbook.htm.
>
> I still have my K&E Log Log Duplex Decitrig. It still works. And it's
> still aligned despite it's being bamboo.
>
> Learning to calculate with slide rules is an important step to being
> numerate. You can forget actually using the slide rule. But being able
> to hammer out answers on it for complex problems leads to a really good
> ability to estimate answers. That way when the nice digital CPU coughs
> up a digital hairball answer to a problem you can see the error at a
> glance.
bingo.
I like the way you stated that.
--
---------------
Chris Hoogendyk
-
O__ ---- Systems Administrator
c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments
(*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center
~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst
<ho...@bio.umass.edu>
---------------
Erdös 4
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by jdow <jd...@earthlink.net>.
From: "Chris Hoogendyk" <ho...@bio.umass.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 2009/December/17 10:07
>
> Steve Lindemann wrote:
>>>> I think I still have a Model B in the loft somewhere...
>>>>
>>>> Kevin
>>>>
>>
>> I've seen CP/M mentioned but no mention of the venerable Kaypro! Oh
>> those were the days.... 8^)
>>
>> But my first digital computer (at work) was a Raytheon 703 with paper
>> tape to load programs (after you fingered in the boot) and output was
>> the lights on the front panel. I also worked on analog computers for
>> a number of years, it wasn't so much programming as re-engineering. I
>> actually do miss those days.
>
> A skilled practitioner could get 5 digits out of this baby:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule (I still have the yellow one).
> If you needed more rigorous but still relatively easy and quick, you
> would use this: http://ljkrakauer.com/CRC99ph/CRCbook.htm.
I still have my K&E Log Log Duplex Decitrig. It still works. And it's
still aligned despite it's being bamboo.
Learning to calculate with slide rules is an important step to being
numerate. You can forget actually using the slide rule. But being able
to hammer out answers on it for complex problems leads to a really good
ability to estimate answers. That way when the nice digital CPU coughs
up a digital hairball answer to a problem you can see the error at a
glance.
{^_^}
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Chris Hoogendyk <ho...@bio.umass.edu>.
Steve Lindemann wrote:
>>> I think I still have a Model B in the loft somewhere...
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>
> I've seen CP/M mentioned but no mention of the venerable Kaypro! Oh
> those were the days.... 8^)
>
> But my first digital computer (at work) was a Raytheon 703 with paper
> tape to load programs (after you fingered in the boot) and output was
> the lights on the front panel. I also worked on analog computers for
> a number of years, it wasn't so much programming as re-engineering. I
> actually do miss those days.
A skilled practitioner could get 5 digits out of this baby:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule (I still have the yellow one).
If you needed more rigorous but still relatively easy and quick, you
would use this: http://ljkrakauer.com/CRC99ph/CRCbook.htm.
Later, there were Wang digital calculators
(http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang362e.html <- that one's actually
newer, smaller & more feature rich) in the chem library with multiple
keyboard/display units connected by serial cable so that several
students could be using it at once. The thing is that all those extra
digits were insignificant and had to be lopped off anyway. ;-)
Computers often encourage innumeracy
(http://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mathematical-Illiteracy-Its-Consequences/dp/0809074478/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0),
and make us think we know more than we actually do. (That's quite a good
book, by the way. If you like numbers/math, get it for yourself for
Christmas or whatever you celebrate at this time of year.)
--
---------------
Chris Hoogendyk
-
O__ ---- Systems Administrator
c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments
(*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center
~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst
<ho...@bio.umass.edu>
---------------
Erdös 4
Re: OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by jdow <jd...@earthlink.net>.
From: "Steve Lindemann" <st...@marmot.org>
Sent: Thursday, 2009/December/17 08:30
>>> I think I still have a Model B in the loft somewhere...
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>
> I've seen CP/M mentioned but no mention of the venerable Kaypro! Oh
> those were the days.... 8^)
Have one complete with the SASI hard disk.
{^_^}
OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Steve Lindemann <st...@marmot.org>.
>> I think I still have a Model B in the loft somewhere...
>>
>> Kevin
>>
I've seen CP/M mentioned but no mention of the venerable Kaypro! Oh
those were the days.... 8^)
But my first digital computer (at work) was a Raytheon 703 with paper
tape to load programs (after you fingered in the boot) and output was
the lights on the front panel. I also worked on analog computers for a
number of years, it wasn't so much programming as re-engineering. I
actually do miss those days.
--
Steve Lindemann __
Network Administrator //\\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Marmot Library Network, Inc. \\// against HTML/RTF email,
http://www.marmot.org //\\ vCards & M$ attachments
+1.970.242.3331 x116
OT Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Michael Scheidell <sc...@secnap.net>.
On 12/17/09 8:56 AM, Kevin Golding wrote:
> I think I still have a Model B in the loft somewhere...
>
> Kevin
>
I had an ASR 33 teletype with an Anderson Jacobs 110 baud coupler. We
dialed into an 800 number owned by tymenet (an X.25 pad).
had to hit the ^p on the keyboard after it stopped screaming into the
coupler.
it took ATT (in 1970) two months to engineer a phone line from the CO
that would stand up to the rigors of 110 baud.
(and I might have been the one to have written one of the original ST
games. I still have the paper tape and printout of the source)
It started its life on an SDS940 somewhere in Texas, running 'UBASIC'
(university of maryland basic).
Ended up on a Sperry Univac that was jointly owned by Florida Atlantic
University and Florida International University.
I used to skip class (11th grade in high school) to hang out in the
basement of the FAU admin building and work on the program.
new 'glass tubes' came in. we convinced the computer science majors
that 'CRT' meant 'Computer Readout Tube'. and, yes, the two most
popular programs that ran on the new 'calcom plotter' were a pinup of
marilyn monroe and lucy (pregnant) yelling 'You blockhead charlie brown')
--
Michael Scheidell, CTO
Phone: 561-999-5000, x 1259
> *| *SECNAP Network Security Corporation
* Certified SNORT Integrator
* 2008-9 Hot Company Award Winner, World Executive Alliance
* Five-Star Partner Program 2009, VARBusiness
* Best Anti-Spam Product 2008, Network Products Guide
* King of Spam Filters, SC Magazine 2008
_________________________________________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________________________
Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Kevin Golding <ke...@caomhin.demon.co.uk>.
In article <64...@mail.gmail.com>
, Rajkumar S <ra...@asianetindia.com> writes
>On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:05 AM, McDonald, Dan
><Da...@austinenergy.com> wrote:
>
>> I miss my Ohio Scientific C3. I had a Tektrinix 4027 terminal with more ram
>> than the computer.
>
>Just wondering if any one here started off with BBC Micro? I had
>couple of them in my school and they were truly sweet to program.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro
I think I still have a Model B in the loft somewhere...
Kevin
Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Rajkumar S <ra...@asianetindia.com>.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:05 AM, McDonald, Dan
<Da...@austinenergy.com> wrote:
> I miss my Ohio Scientific C3. I had a Tektrinix 4027 terminal with more ram
> than the computer.
Just wondering if any one here started off with BBC Micro? I had
couple of them in my school and they were truly sweet to program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro
raj
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Justin Mason <jm...@jmason.org>.
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 16:15, Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org> wrote:
> On ons 16 dec 2009 16:49:52 CET, Charles Gregory wrote
>
>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>>>>
>>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>>>
>>
>> For your amusement:
>>
>> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>>
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>
> my commodore 128 have basic 7.0 copyrighted from microsoft, i bet bill
> gates have seen one of them with a reu 1750 and sayed the final words of
> 640k ram ougth to be enough for anyone :)
>
> i still have 8bit computers that works, and also cpm where i have pascal,
> fortran, autocad wordstar, you name it, best of all it works !
>
> my nokia e51 have frodo c64 emulator that emulate all what a 64 & 1541 can
> do if one have the hardware, apple iphones have a c64 app aswell now, so no
> excuse for not have fun anymore :)
>
BTW, if you're curious -- here are some of the demos I wrote ;)
http://taint.org/2008/01/10/011624a.html
--j.
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Wednesday 16 December 2009, Aaron Wolfe wrote:
>On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>> On Wednesday 16 December 2009, Benny Pedersen wrote:
[...]
>>>kids need to know how little is needed to do simple things, and when
>>>thay have seen it, thay will code much better if thay get some jobs
>>>that use there knowledge
>>
>> I agree Benny. To demo that, I have the old coco2 that acted like a
>> $20,000 dollar Grass Valley Group E-Disk for the production video
>> switchers in the 300 series they made about 20 years ago. For $245 worth
>> of stuff, its 4x faster and 100x more friendly for the tech directors to
>> use than the $20k GVG package was.
>>
>> Coding in assembly for one of those is something I can still do, I just
>> rewrote the mouse driver which was suffering from a huge lack of tlc.
>>
>> When someone comes over who can be impressed, I go boot the coco3 up,
>> then come back to this linux box, and over a bluetooth serial emulation,
>> log into it with minicom. Just to impress the frogs of course.
>
>Long live the Coco :)
>
>At this moment I am working on a project (half 6809 assembler, half
>Java) that allows multiple simultaneous telnet sessions in and out of
>a Coco running NitrOS-9. Just two days ago we made Coco history when
>three people (including one of the original OS-9 developers) all
>connected over the internet into my coco 3.
>
>8 bit CPUs and ancient operating systems are still very fun to play with.
>
>-Aaron
Amen Aaron.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
The Kennedy Constant:
Don't get mad -- get even.
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Martin Gregorie <ma...@gregorie.org>.
On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 21:20 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> No cpm here, but what was once os-9, now nitros-9 because we changed the cpu
> to a hitachi 6309, cmos & smarter, then re-wrote os-9. Both levels.
>
No CP/M here either, but I have a working Flex 09 relic - MC6809 with
parallel connected ASCII keyboard (remember them?) and a stack of 4
floppy drives, with all drivers and boot strap in my own re-engineered
ROM monitor.
I still run OS-9/68K v2.4 on a 68020 (Peripheral Technology hardware).
This is run almost daily with access over my LAN via ssh access to a
copy of Kermit and a serial port on the physically nearest Linux box.
Martin
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Aaron Wolfe <aa...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday 16 December 2009, Benny Pedersen wrote:
>>On ons 16 dec 2009 16:49:52 CET, Charles Gregory wrote
>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>>>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>>>>
>>>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>>>
>>> For your amusement:
>>>
>>> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>>
> And I still have several coco's, including a coco3 in the basement that all
> boots up with a flick of the power switch.
>
>>my commodore 128 have basic 7.0 copyrighted from microsoft, i bet bill
>>gates have seen one of them with a reu 1750 and sayed the final words
>>of 640k ram ougth to be enough for anyone :)
>>
>>i still have 8bit computers that works, and also cpm where i have
>>pascal, fortran, autocad wordstar, you name it, best of all it works !
>
> No cpm here, but what was once os-9, now nitros-9 because we changed the cpu
> to a hitachi 6309, cmos & smarter, then re-wrote os-9. Both levels.
>
>>my nokia e51 have frodo c64 emulator that emulate all what a 64 & 1541
>>can do if one have the hardware, apple iphones have a c64 app aswell
>>now, so no excuse for not have fun anymore :)
>>
>>c128 have 1M of mem page mapped in 64k pages, it realy have mmu, so it
>>can adress one whole meg of mem, fun part is that if i start cpm on
>>this, the m drive have 4 times more disk space then the system disks :)
>
> My coco3 has 2 megs, in 8k pages, 64k at a time, instant switch to a
> different map of 64k, and just a few microseconds to remap any of that 2 megs
> into the 64k that is visible.
>
>>> One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits
>>> for a show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's
>>> Heritage Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious'
>>> possesions from their parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys,
>>> favorite tools, whatever.
>>>
>>> Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So
>>> she put that in her exhibit.
>>>
>>> So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
>>> Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
>>
>>kids need to know how little is needed to do simple things, and when
>>thay have seen it, thay will code much better if thay get some jobs
>>that use there knowledge
>
> I agree Benny. To demo that, I have the old coco2 that acted like a $20,000
> dollar Grass Valley Group E-Disk for the production video switchers in the
> 300 series they made about 20 years ago. For $245 worth of stuff, its 4x
> faster and 100x more friendly for the tech directors to use than the $20k GVG
> package was.
>
> Coding in assembly for one of those is something I can still do, I just
> rewrote the mouse driver which was suffering from a huge lack of tlc.
>
> When someone comes over who can be impressed, I go boot the coco3 up, then
> come back to this linux box, and over a bluetooth serial emulation, log into
> it with minicom. Just to impress the frogs of course.
>
Long live the Coco :)
At this moment I am working on a project (half 6809 assembler, half
Java) that allows multiple simultaneous telnet sessions in and out of
a Coco running NitrOS-9. Just two days ago we made Coco history when
three people (including one of the original OS-9 developers) all
connected over the internet into my coco 3.
8 bit CPUs and ancient operating systems are still very fun to play with.
-Aaron
>>sorry to be OT
>
> There must be a Senor Wences line here someplace, but I'll have to plead
> oldtimers.
>
> --
> Cheers, Gene
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
> <https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
>
> No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted.
> -- Aesop
>
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Wednesday 16 December 2009, Dave Pooser wrote:
>On 12/16/09 8:20 PM, "Gene Heskett" <ge...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> I agree Benny. To demo that, I have the old coco2 that acted like a
>> $20,000 dollar Grass Valley Group E-Disk for the production video
>> switchers in the 300 series they made about 20 years ago. For $245 worth
>> of stuff, its 4x faster and 100x more friendly for the tech directors to
>> use than the $20k GVG package was.
>
>Heh. And today at $DAYJOB we're using $2200 worth of Playback Pro software
> + iMac because it's 4x faster and 100x more friendly than the $10k GV
> Turbo. The more things change.... :-)
>
Chuckle, couple of guffahs even. Hi Dave. I run into you in the darndest
places.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
Senate, n.:
A body of elderly gentlemen charged with high duties and misdemeanors.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Dave Pooser <da...@pooserville.com>.
On 12/16/09 8:20 PM, "Gene Heskett" <ge...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I agree Benny. To demo that, I have the old coco2 that acted like a $20,000
> dollar Grass Valley Group E-Disk for the production video switchers in the
> 300 series they made about 20 years ago. For $245 worth of stuff, its 4x
> faster and 100x more friendly for the tech directors to use than the $20k GVG
> package was.
Heh. And today at $DAYJOB we're using $2200 worth of Playback Pro software +
iMac because it's 4x faster and 100x more friendly than the $10k GV Turbo.
The more things change.... :-)
--
Dave Pooser
Cat-Herder-in-Chief, Pooserville.com
"...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in one pretty and well-preserved piece, but to slide across the
finish line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, and
shouting GERONIMO!!!" -- Bill McKenna
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Wednesday 16 December 2009, Benny Pedersen wrote:
>On ons 16 dec 2009 16:49:52 CET, Charles Gregory wrote
>
>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>>>
>>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>>
>> For your amusement:
>>
>> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>
And I still have several coco's, including a coco3 in the basement that all
boots up with a flick of the power switch.
>my commodore 128 have basic 7.0 copyrighted from microsoft, i bet bill
>gates have seen one of them with a reu 1750 and sayed the final words
>of 640k ram ougth to be enough for anyone :)
>
>i still have 8bit computers that works, and also cpm where i have
>pascal, fortran, autocad wordstar, you name it, best of all it works !
No cpm here, but what was once os-9, now nitros-9 because we changed the cpu
to a hitachi 6309, cmos & smarter, then re-wrote os-9. Both levels.
>my nokia e51 have frodo c64 emulator that emulate all what a 64 & 1541
>can do if one have the hardware, apple iphones have a c64 app aswell
>now, so no excuse for not have fun anymore :)
>
>c128 have 1M of mem page mapped in 64k pages, it realy have mmu, so it
>can adress one whole meg of mem, fun part is that if i start cpm on
>this, the m drive have 4 times more disk space then the system disks :)
My coco3 has 2 megs, in 8k pages, 64k at a time, instant switch to a
different map of 64k, and just a few microseconds to remap any of that 2 megs
into the 64k that is visible.
>> One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits
>> for a show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's
>> Heritage Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious'
>> possesions from their parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys,
>> favorite tools, whatever.
>>
>> Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So
>> she put that in her exhibit.
>>
>> So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
>> Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
>
>kids need to know how little is needed to do simple things, and when
>thay have seen it, thay will code much better if thay get some jobs
>that use there knowledge
I agree Benny. To demo that, I have the old coco2 that acted like a $20,000
dollar Grass Valley Group E-Disk for the production video switchers in the
300 series they made about 20 years ago. For $245 worth of stuff, its 4x
faster and 100x more friendly for the tech directors to use than the $20k GVG
package was.
Coding in assembly for one of those is something I can still do, I just
rewrote the mouse driver which was suffering from a huge lack of tlc.
When someone comes over who can be impressed, I go boot the coco3 up, then
come back to this linux box, and over a bluetooth serial emulation, log into
it with minicom. Just to impress the frogs of course.
>sorry to be OT
There must be a Senor Wences line here someplace, but I'll have to plead
oldtimers.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted.
-- Aesop
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Timo Schoeler <ti...@riscworks.net>.
thus Charles Gregory spake:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>> Those were the days. A few poke and peek commands, 15 minutes
>> waiting for the cassette tape to load the pirated game...
>
> Biggest thrill for me was reverse-egineering the 'fast loader' code in
> one of the games so that I could create my own TSR that would allow me
> to load *any* game from the floppy drive using fast synchronous
> transfer.....
I remember to run some app on my C64 (there was a 1541-II atached to it,
as well as a 1581 -- but the 1541-II is the device that came into play)
that used the floppy's CPU and RAM as a second node. MPP for crunching
fractals, in the 80s, at home! :D
> Sigh.....
>
> (So, so seriously OT here..... Better stop this now.... LOL)
>
> - C
Timo
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Charles Gregory <cg...@hwcn.org>.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> Those were the days. A few poke and peek commands, 15 minutes
> waiting for the cassette tape to load the pirated game...
Biggest thrill for me was reverse-egineering the 'fast loader' code in one
of the games so that I could create my own TSR that would allow me to load
*any* game from the floppy drive using fast synchronous transfer.....
Sigh.....
(So, so seriously OT here..... Better stop this now.... LOL)
- C
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Christian Brel <br...@copperproductions.co.uk>.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:05:18 -0800
Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@ipinc.net> wrote:
> Charles Gregory wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
> >> Marc Perkel wrote:
> >>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
> >> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
> >
> > For your amusement:
> >
> > I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the
> > basement.
> >
> > One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits
> > for a show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's
> > Heritage Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious'
> > possesions from their parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys,
> > favorite tools, whatever.
> >
> > Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So
> > she put that in her exhibit.
> >
> > So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
> > Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
> >
> > - Charles
>
> I had a Vic-20 once and I also had the port expander card that
> allowed you to make copies of the game cartridges to cassette tape.
> We were so naive back then, running our data and addressing lines
> for a foot outside the computer, the clock speeds were so slow
> that we never knew anything about propagation delays.
>
> Those were the days. A few poke and peek commands, 15 minutes
> waiting for the cassette tape to load the pirated game into the
> 16k memory card, then a flip of the switch changing the address
> locations of the memory card, and a final command to start execution
> and we were off and playing. $250 worth of electronic gear to
> be able to pirate a $15 game cartridge that was merely a copy of
> some arcade game that cost 25 cents at the local pizza parlor, and
> ran at 3 times the resolution at the arcade. I think the most fun of
> it was learning how to actually do it.
>
>
> Ted
They introduced Microsoft to the three finger salute with the 'run
stop' and 'restore' combo. Man, that machine haunted me. POKE 36879,8
Lol....
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Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@ipinc.net>.
Charles Gregory wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>
> For your amusement:
>
> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>
> One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits for a
> show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's Heritage
> Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious' possesions from their
> parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys, favorite tools, whatever.
>
> Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So she
> put that in her exhibit.
>
> So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
> Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
>
> - Charles
I had a Vic-20 once and I also had the port expander card that
allowed you to make copies of the game cartridges to cassette tape.
We were so naive back then, running our data and addressing lines
for a foot outside the computer, the clock speeds were so slow
that we never knew anything about propagation delays.
Those were the days. A few poke and peek commands, 15 minutes
waiting for the cassette tape to load the pirated game into the
16k memory card, then a flip of the switch changing the address
locations of the memory card, and a final command to start execution
and we were off and playing. $250 worth of electronic gear to
be able to pirate a $15 game cartridge that was merely a copy of
some arcade game that cost 25 cents at the local pizza parlor, and
ran at 3 times the resolution at the arcade. I think the most fun of
it was learning how to actually do it.
Ted
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Gene Heskett <ge...@verizon.net>.
On Thursday 17 December 2009, Jari Fredriksson wrote:
>On 17.12.2009 23:10, Jari Fredriksson wrote:
>> On 16.12.2009 18:15, Benny Pedersen wrote:
>>> On ons 16 dec 2009 16:49:52 CET, Charles Gregory wrote
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>>>>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>>>>>
>>>>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>>>>
>>>> For your amusement:
>>>>
>>>> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the
>>>> basement.
>>>
>>> my commodore 128 have basic 7.0 copyrighted from microsoft, i bet bill
>>> gates have seen one of them with a reu 1750 and sayed the final words of
>>> 640k ram ougth to be enough for anyone :)
>>>
>>> i still have 8bit computers that works, and also cpm where i have
>>> pascal, fortran, autocad wordstar, you name it, best of all it works !
>>
>> I still have my Nokia MikroMikko I with 64 kilos RAM and Intel 8085
>> processor (8-bit). CP/M 2.2 with Cobol, Fortran, Pascal, C, MS-Basic
>> (both compiler and interpreter), WordStar and Multiplan and the Basic
>> game "Keke" (a Rosberg formula one "simulation" ;))
>>
>> Still works. If it had a NIC and TCP/IP I would use it. Now it's
>> useless. If it worked, I'd port Firefox for it ;)
>
>I wrote my 'BAG' compression software for CP/M with it, using the
>LZH-algorithm, ported LZH uncompression named 'UnYoshi', and ported
>UNZIP, those from MS/DOS. It was not easy, as the BDS-C compiler did not
>have 'overlay' -technogy, had to implement my own.
>
>Also wrote a VT-100 emulator, but that did not succeed, no matter how
>much assembly I added to it, it was sluggish. Nokia's own VT-52 terminal
>was super fast, and I never could get there. There was no VT-100 for
>MikroMikko available :( The BBS-systems on MS-DOS era needed one, though.
>
I took the os-9 version of VT-100 and with relatively little added code, made
it into a VT-220 that the CBS programmed devices I was programming with it
couldn't tell that it wasn't a real VT-220. But it was a coco3 on the end of
the cable. I ran our network satellite system that way for several years.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp>
Kiss a non-smoker; taste the difference.
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@ipinc.net>.
Jari Fredriksson wrote:
>
> On 16.12.2009 18:15, Benny Pedersen wrote:
>> On ons 16 dec 2009 16:49:52 CET, Charles Gregory wrote
>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>>>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>>>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>>> For your amusement:
>>>
>>> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>> my commodore 128 have basic 7.0 copyrighted from microsoft, i bet bill
>> gates have seen one of them with a reu 1750 and sayed the final words of
>> 640k ram ougth to be enough for anyone :)
>>
>> i still have 8bit computers that works, and also cpm where i have
>> pascal, fortran, autocad wordstar, you name it, best of all it works !
>>
>
> I still have my Nokia MikroMikko I with 64 kilos RAM and Intel 8085
> processor (8-bit). CP/M 2.2 with Cobol, Fortran, Pascal, C, MS-Basic
> (both compiler and interpreter), WordStar and Multiplan and the Basic
> game "Keke" (a Rosberg formula one "simulation" ;))
>
> Still works. If it had a NIC and TCP/IP I would use it.
The oldest Ka9Q code for CP/M has a TCP/IP stack in it, you can get it
from here: http://www.gaby.de/ecpmlink.htm
More goodies on this issue here:
http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/cpm_tcpip.html
It will talk out the serial port, but you can then setup an old Cisco
2501 as a router between it's serial aux port and it's ethernet port to
get on the Internet.
Ted
Now it's
> useless. If it worked, I'd port Firefox for it ;)
>
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Jari Fredriksson <ja...@iki.fi>.
On 17.12.2009 23:10, Jari Fredriksson wrote:
>
>
> On 16.12.2009 18:15, Benny Pedersen wrote:
>> On ons 16 dec 2009 16:49:52 CET, Charles Gregory wrote
>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>>>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>>>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>>>
>>> For your amusement:
>>>
>>> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>>
>> my commodore 128 have basic 7.0 copyrighted from microsoft, i bet bill
>> gates have seen one of them with a reu 1750 and sayed the final words of
>> 640k ram ougth to be enough for anyone :)
>>
>> i still have 8bit computers that works, and also cpm where i have
>> pascal, fortran, autocad wordstar, you name it, best of all it works !
>>
>
> I still have my Nokia MikroMikko I with 64 kilos RAM and Intel 8085
> processor (8-bit). CP/M 2.2 with Cobol, Fortran, Pascal, C, MS-Basic
> (both compiler and interpreter), WordStar and Multiplan and the Basic
> game "Keke" (a Rosberg formula one "simulation" ;))
>
> Still works. If it had a NIC and TCP/IP I would use it. Now it's
> useless. If it worked, I'd port Firefox for it ;)
>
I wrote my 'BAG' compression software for CP/M with it, using the
LZH-algorithm, ported LZH uncompression named 'UnYoshi', and ported
UNZIP, those from MS/DOS. It was not easy, as the BDS-C compiler did not
have 'overlay' -technogy, had to implement my own.
Also wrote a VT-100 emulator, but that did not succeed, no matter how
much assembly I added to it, it was sluggish. Nokia's own VT-52 terminal
was super fast, and I never could get there. There was no VT-100 for
MikroMikko available :( The BBS-systems on MS-DOS era needed one, though.
--
http://www.iki.fi/jarif/
You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely.
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Jari Fredriksson <ja...@iki.fi>.
On 16.12.2009 18:15, Benny Pedersen wrote:
> On ons 16 dec 2009 16:49:52 CET, Charles Gregory wrote
>
>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>>
>> For your amusement:
>>
>> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>
> my commodore 128 have basic 7.0 copyrighted from microsoft, i bet bill
> gates have seen one of them with a reu 1750 and sayed the final words of
> 640k ram ougth to be enough for anyone :)
>
> i still have 8bit computers that works, and also cpm where i have
> pascal, fortran, autocad wordstar, you name it, best of all it works !
>
I still have my Nokia MikroMikko I with 64 kilos RAM and Intel 8085
processor (8-bit). CP/M 2.2 with Cobol, Fortran, Pascal, C, MS-Basic
(both compiler and interpreter), WordStar and Multiplan and the Basic
game "Keke" (a Rosberg formula one "simulation" ;))
Still works. If it had a NIC and TCP/IP I would use it. Now it's
useless. If it worked, I'd port Firefox for it ;)
--
http://www.iki.fi/jarif/
You will pay for your sins. If you have already paid, please disregard
this message.
Re: OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>.
On ons 16 dec 2009 16:49:52 CET, Charles Gregory wrote
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>
> For your amusement:
>
> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
my commodore 128 have basic 7.0 copyrighted from microsoft, i bet bill
gates have seen one of them with a reu 1750 and sayed the final words
of 640k ram ougth to be enough for anyone :)
i still have 8bit computers that works, and also cpm where i have
pascal, fortran, autocad wordstar, you name it, best of all it works !
my nokia e51 have frodo c64 emulator that emulate all what a 64 & 1541
can do if one have the hardware, apple iphones have a c64 app aswell
now, so no excuse for not have fun anymore :)
c128 have 1M of mem page mapped in 64k pages, it realy have mmu, so it
can adress one whole meg of mem, fun part is that if i start cpm on
this, the m drive have 4 times more disk space then the system disks :)
> One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits
> for a show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's
> Heritage Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious'
> possesions from their parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys,
> favorite tools, whatever.
>
> Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So
> she put that in her exhibit.
>
> So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
> Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
kids need to know how little is needed to do simple things, and when
thay have seen it, thay will code much better if thay get some jobs
that use there knowledge
sorry to be OT
--
xpoint http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Re: [OT] Museum piece...
Posted by Eray Aslan <er...@caf.com.tr>.
[Replying randomly to one of the emails in the thread]
On 17.12.2009 05:41, David B Funk wrote:
> Hah, I've still got my SWTPC 6800 but it's been hopped up. It's
> got the original M6800 plus a 6809 and a Z80. Havn't fired it up
> in decades, so don't know if it'll still boot. ;()
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20091201
--
Eray
Re: Museum piece...
Posted by "McDonald, Dan" <Da...@austinenergy.com>.
On Dec 16, 2009, at 9:42 PM, "David B Funk" <dbfunk@engineering.uiowa.edu
> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Marc Perkel wrote:
>
>> I don't know if anyone still remembers this but this is what I had
>> for
>> my first computer back on 1979.
>>
I miss my Ohio Scientific C3. I had a Tektrinix 4027 terminal with
more ram than the computer.
Back in the late 70's early 80's I had three Ohio Scientific boxes.
Learned assembly, basic, forth. Had to hack the hardware on the c1p
to get 8k of ram.
>>
Re: Museum piece...
Posted by David B Funk <db...@engineering.uiowa.edu>.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Marc Perkel wrote:
> I don't know if anyone still remembers this but this is what I had for
> my first computer back on 1979.
>
> http://www.scotthodson.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/imsai8080.jpg
>
> IMSAI 8080 - except I had a Z80 board for it.
Hah, I've still got my SWTPC 6800 but it's been hopped up. It's
got the original M6800 plus a 6809 and a Z80. Havn't fired it up
in decades, so don't know if it'll still boot. ;()
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWTPC
Now is the time of year when I can kinda justify firing up my pair of
Apollo DN10Ks. ;)
http://apollo.maxnt.co.jp/apollo/photo/DN100x0_01.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo/Domain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_PRISM
--
Dave Funk University of Iowa
<dbfunk (at) engineering.uiowa.edu> College of Engineering
319/335-5751 FAX: 319/384-0549 1256 Seamans Center
Sys_admin/Postmaster/cell_admin Iowa City, IA 52242-1527
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
Better is not better, 'standard' is better. B{
Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Martin Gregorie <ma...@gregorie.org>.
On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 18:27 -0800, Marc Perkel wrote:
>
> jdow wrote:
> > From: "Charles Gregory" <cg...@hwcn.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, 2009/December/16 07:49
> >
> >
> >> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
> >>> Marc Perkel wrote:
> >>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
> >>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
> >>
> >> For your amusement:
> >>
> >> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
> >>
> >> One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits for
> >> a show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's
> >> Heritage Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious' possesions
> >> from their parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys, favorite tools,
> >> whatever.
> >>
> >> Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So she
> >> put that in her exhibit.
> >>
> >> So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
> >> Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
> >
> >
> > How many do you want? I believe Loren might still have several.
> >
> > {O.O}
> >
> >
> I don't know if anyone still remembers this but this is what I had for
> my first computer back on 1979.
>
> http://www.scotthodson.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/imsai8080.jpg
>
> IMSAI 8080 - except I had a Z80 board for it.
>
"War Games" anybody? I remember The Kid had an IMSAI 8080 and, judging
by the flashing lights, it was faster than the SAC's supercomputer by
several orders of magnitude.
Martin
Re: Museum piece...
Posted by Marc Perkel <ma...@perkel.com>.
jdow wrote:
> From: "Charles Gregory" <cg...@hwcn.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, 2009/December/16 07:49
>
>
>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>>
>> For your amusement:
>>
>> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>>
>> One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits for
>> a show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's
>> Heritage Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious' possesions
>> from their parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys, favorite tools,
>> whatever.
>>
>> Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So she
>> put that in her exhibit.
>>
>> So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
>> Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
>
>
> How many do you want? I believe Loren might still have several.
>
> {O.O}
>
>
I don't know if anyone still remembers this but this is what I had for
my first computer back on 1979.
http://www.scotthodson.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/imsai8080.jpg
IMSAI 8080 - except I had a Z80 board for it.
Re: Museum piece...
Posted by jdow <jd...@earthlink.net>.
From: "Charles Gregory" <cg...@hwcn.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 2009/December/16 07:49
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
>> Marc Perkel wrote:
>>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
>> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
>
> For your amusement:
>
> I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
>
> One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits for a
> show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's Heritage
> Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious' possesions from their
> parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys, favorite tools, whatever.
>
> Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So she put
> that in her exhibit.
>
> So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
> Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
How many do you want? I believe Loren might still have several.
{O.O}
OT: Museum piece...
Posted by Charles Gregory <cg...@hwcn.org>.
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:
> Marc Perkel wrote:
>> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
> There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house.
For your amusement:
I still have my old Commodore 64 and 1541 drive sitting in the basement.
One year my daughter's school had a project to construct exhibits for a
show called 'working class treasures' for the local Worker's Heritage
Museum. The idea was to put on display 'precious' possesions from their
parents' childhood. Baseballs, old toys, favorite tools, whatever.
Well, the only thing I had of any 'meaning' to me was my C-64. So she put
that in her exhibit.
So yes, my Commodore 64 has actually been displayed in a museum.
Not just figuratively, but *literally* a 'museum piece'. :)
- Charles
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Chris Hoogendyk <ho...@bio.umass.edu>.
Marc Perkel wrote:
> I found the text only list and I originally had it set to just
> spamassassin.org rather that spamassassin.apache.org so this should
> help those on the list reading their email with a KSR33 teletype on a
> 110 baud acoustic modem use less paper when reading their email.
>
> http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
What's with the duct tape? Someone needs to refurbish that one.
There was actually a time when I had one of those in my house. I had a
special phone line installed so that I could dial a single digit and get
to the mainframe in the next state. I wrote some structured software
with doubly linked data structures on that thing. Printouts took a
while. Occasionally, I'd shoot a printout to the line printer and drive
over to pick it up. No such thing as email in those days. No such thing
as html. The mainframe ran on 16K core memory. Magnetic core. Big
cabinet to hold that much. ;-)
--
---------------
Chris Hoogendyk
-
O__ ---- Systems Administrator
c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments
(*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center
~~~~~~~~~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst
<ho...@bio.umass.edu>
---------------
Erdös 4
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by John Hardin <jh...@impsec.org>.
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Marc Perkel wrote:
> I had thought that at one time I already set it to text only on this
> list and I had. But that was before the list name changed many years
> ago. I'm been on this list since 2001.
_thank_ you for turning off the HTML, Marc.
--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bother," said Pooh as he struggled with /etc/sendmail.cf, "it never
does quite what I want. I wish Christopher Robin was here."
-- Peter da Silva in a.s.r
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
9 days until Christmas
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Thomas Harold <th...@nybeta.com>.
On 12/16/2009 10:50 AM, Marc Perkel wrote:
>
> I had thought that at one time I already set it to text only on this
> list and I had. But that was before the list name changed many years
> ago. I'm been on this list since 2001.
>
One of the (many) reasons why I've switched over to having a dedicated
email account just for list subscriptions. I tell Thunderbird to only
compose in plain-text on this account. Which then applies to all
mailing lists, even if I forget to set their text type in the address book.
It also nicely segregates the dozens of mailing lists away from my
primary work account.
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Marc Perkel <su...@junkemailfilter.com>.
Charles Gregory wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Marc Perkel wrote:
>> I found the text only list and I originally had it set to just
>> spamassassin.org rather that spamassassin.apache.org so this should
>> help those on the list reading their email with a KSR33 teletype on a
>> 110 baud acoustic modem use less paper when reading their email.
>
> Actually, your 'pot stirring' helped out in other ways. I have been
> getting complaints that *my* e-mails are 'hard to read' and now, in
> response to your thread, I see the comment that the ">" quoting is
> messed up by HTML processing in Outhouse. So... uh.... thanks! :)
>
> - C
>
I had thought that at one time I already set it to text only on this
list and I had. But that was before the list name changed many years
ago. I'm been on this list since 2001.
--
Marc Perkel - Sales/Support
support@junkemailfilter.com
http://www.junkemailfilter.com
Junk Email Filter dot com
415-992-3400
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Charles Gregory <cg...@hwcn.org>.
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Marc Perkel wrote:
> I found the text only list and I originally had it set to just
> spamassassin.org rather that spamassassin.apache.org so this should help
> those on the list reading their email with a KSR33 teletype on a 110
> baud acoustic modem use less paper when reading their email.
Actually, your 'pot stirring' helped out in other ways. I have been
getting complaints that *my* e-mails are 'hard to read' and now, in
response to your thread, I see the comment that the ">" quoting is messed
up by HTML processing in Outhouse. So... uh.... thanks! :)
- C
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Marc Perkel <ma...@perkel.com>.
I found the text only list and I originally had it set to just
spamassassin.org rather that spamassassin.apache.org so this should help
those on the list reading their email with a KSR33 teletype on a 110
baud acoustic modem use less paper when reading their email.
http://www.vintage-computer.com/asr33.shtml
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@ipinc.net>.
Marc Perkel wrote:
> If you can't handle HTML then filter it on your end.
I use Thunderbird which handles HTML mail fine.
However, I will point out that a lot of people use
Outlook (the Outlook in MS Orafice) because they are
supporting Outlook users and need to be familiar
with the latest Mickeysoft bozoisms in Outlook.
Outlook can be set to compose and send text-only
e-mail just fine.
However, when Outlook RECEIVES an HTML mail and the
user replies or forwards it, then the text-only settings
are ignored, the mail remains HTML-formatted.
The HTML-formatting breaks the usual ">" quoting badly,
it greatly discourages editing of posts the user is
replying to to trim out the extraneous cruft, (ever
tried selecting a block of forwarded text and deleting it
in Outlook) and it hides URL's embedded in the mail
message.
It's possible to click a button in Outlook and reformat
text your forwarding to text-only, but this puts the
burden on the recipient to remember to do this - and also
when you do it, the mail is really formatted badly and
the user has to manually reformat it.
Now granted a lot of this could be corrected by bugfixing
Outlook and isn't the fault of HTML mail - but, it is currently
broken NOW and Mickeysoft isn't likely to correct it. You must
understand that if your using Outlook to handle both internal
corporate mail (in which case you may want to HTML-format it)
and external mailing list mail, that people who send HTML mail
to mailing lists really cause you a problem.
Ted
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Marc Perkel <ma...@perkel.com>.
If you can't handle HTML then filter it on your end.
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Blaine Fleming <gr...@digital-z.com>.
MY EYES!!!!!!11
Maybe it's time to repost the "best practices" for this list?!?
--Blaine
Disclaimer:
This top post is the intellectual property of blah blah blah and urmom.
Henrik K wrote:
>
>
> Marc wrote:
>
>> Get a modern email client. Are you using a KSR33 teletype on a 110
>> baud modem?
>
> Idiot, HTML is supposed to be flashy and not a tool for lame blockquotes.
Re: OT: Weird characters in Pine
Posted by Martin Gregorie <ma...@gregorie.org>.
On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 10:55 -0500, Charles Gregory wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, John Hardin wrote:
> > I generally use PINE....
> >
> > {researches a bit} Hmmm. It only appears to happen when non-ASCII
> > characters are in the message I'm replying to.
>
> OT: Seeing how you seem to have some passing acquaintance with ASCII
> character set issues, I thought I would ask if you are familiar with
> whatever 'character' problem causes me to see a pair of displayed
> characters that look like the graphic box 'T' character, followed by the
> letter 'a', at various places in my e-mail when I use Pine via this simple
> 'telnet' client on Vista?
>
> I know it has something to do with my 'terminal type' settings, because
> I don't get this problem in my Win98 'Hyperterminal'. But it only occurs
> in mails that come (you guessed it) from certain Outhouse mail clients.
> Is there a character sequence that I could possibly 'translate' out of the
> e-mail before I view it in telnet?
>
Its beem a while since I've used a MS OS, but it might have something to
do with Win98 using the old DOS codepages while Vista does something
completely different by default. A poke round 'terminal type' settings
looking for Win 98/DOS codepage emulation or asking on the relevant
forum(s) may be useful.
Martin
OT: Weird characters in Pine
Posted by Charles Gregory <cg...@hwcn.org>.
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, John Hardin wrote:
> I generally use PINE....
>
> {researches a bit} Hmmm. It only appears to happen when non-ASCII
> characters are in the message I'm replying to.
OT: Seeing how you seem to have some passing acquaintance with ASCII
character set issues, I thought I would ask if you are familiar with
whatever 'character' problem causes me to see a pair of displayed
characters that look like the graphic box 'T' character, followed by the
letter 'a', at various places in my e-mail when I use Pine via this simple
'telnet' client on Vista?
I know it has something to do with my 'terminal type' settings, because
I don't get this problem in my Win98 'Hyperterminal'. But it only occurs
in mails that come (you guessed it) from certain Outhouse mail clients.
Is there a character sequence that I could possibly 'translate' out of the
e-mail before I view it in telnet?
- Charles
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Martin Gregorie <ma...@gregorie.org>.
On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 13:15 -0800, John Hardin wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
> > BTW John, why does your MUA emit a textual MIME part with an X-UNKNOWN
> > charset every so often? Its pretty rare and so far I haven't been able
> > to see a pattern to it. Do you occasionally use a different MUA?
>
> I generally use PINE; occasionally I use Evolution, usually only if I want
> to look at image attachments without exporting them first.
>
> {researches a bit} Hmmm. It only appears to happen when non-ASCII
> characters are in the message I'm replying to. I have my locale set to
> en_US.utf8, maybe PINE doesn't try to figure out the right thing to do
> when I reply to a non-UTF8 message with accented characters or some such.
>
> I'll switch back to iso8859-mumble for a while and see if it happens
> again.
>
I just found an old message I've kept from April this year. It was sent
from PINE LNX 4.64. Its just the one text/plain MIME part that uses an
X-UNKNOWN charset. It it you were replying to Karsten Br<E4>ckelmann: as
you can see, there's an e umlaut in the attribution line, so that's most
likely the cause.
FWIW JavaMail 1.4.2 trips over it despite my use of a CharsetProvider to
substitute iso-8859-1 for it, which works if the charset is defined in
the mail headers but not if its in a MIME part. I notice that JavaMail
1.4.3 is now out, so I'll see if upgrading fixes the problem for MIME
parts. Your saved message will make a good real-world test.
Martin
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by John Hardin <jh...@impsec.org>.
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> BTW John, why does your MUA emit a textual MIME part with an X-UNKNOWN
> charset every so often? Its pretty rare and so far I haven't been able
> to see a pattern to it. Do you occasionally use a different MUA?
I generally use PINE; occasionally I use Evolution, usually only if I want
to look at image attachments without exporting them first.
{researches a bit} Hmmm. It only appears to happen when non-ASCII
characters are in the message I'm replying to. I have my locale set to
en_US.utf8, maybe PINE doesn't try to figure out the right thing to do
when I reply to a non-UTF8 message with accented characters or some such.
I'll switch back to iso8859-mumble for a while and see if it happens
again.
--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our government should bear in mind the fact that the American
Revolution was touched off by the then-current government
attempting to confiscate firearms from the people.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Today: Bill of Rights day
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Martin Gregorie <ma...@gregorie.org>.
On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 10:38 -0800, John Hardin wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Henrik K wrote:
>
> > Marc wrote:
> > Get a modern email client. Are you using a KSR33 teletype on a 110
> > baud modem?
> >
> > Idiot, HTML is supposed to be flashy and not a tool for lame
> > blockquotes.
>
> I suspect that I am _really_ thankful right now that I generally use a
> text-only MUA...
>
I use Evolution which can handle both, but I have it configured to send
plain text and to preferentially display HTML - this gives me look-ahead
on maliciously obfuscated URLs and assures my recipients that I'm not
trying to smuggle nastiness onto their systems.
BTW John, why does your MUA emit a textual MIME part with an X-UNKNOWN
charset every so often? Its pretty rare and so far I haven't been able
to see a pattern to it. Do you occasionally use a different MUA?
Martin
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by John Hardin <jh...@impsec.org>.
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Henrik K wrote:
> Marc wrote:
> Get a modern email client. Are you using a KSR33 teletype on a 110
> baud modem?
>
> Idiot, HTML is supposed to be flashy and not a tool for lame
> blockquotes.
I suspect that I am _really_ thankful right now that I generally use a
text-only MUA...
--
John Hardin KA7OHZ http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/
jhardin@impsec.org FALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhardin@impsec.org
key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it
will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the
wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly
administered. -- Lyndon B. Johnson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Today: Bill of Rights day
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by LuKreme <kr...@kreme.com>.
On 15-Dec-2009, at 06:11, Kai Schaetzl wrote:
> Mark, can you *please* stop sending HTML-only messages to the list?
And just in case the response is "no one else complains"
Yes. Stop doing this. Bad list subscriber. Bad! Bad!
--
Hello Diane, I'm Bucky Goldstein
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>.
On tir 15 dec 2009 17:22:44 CET, Marc Perkel wrote
>> Mark, can you *please* stop sending HTML-only messages to the list?
> Get a modern email client.
helps more to get a better os :)
--
xpoint http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Kai Schaetzl <ma...@conactive.com>.
Marc Perkel wrote on Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:22:44 -0800:
> Get a modern email client.
Please stop responding like an asshole. This is not a matter about my
email client but about *you* configuring *your* email client incorrectly!
Please configure your email client correctly! Thank you.
Kai
--
Kai Schätzl, Berlin, Germany
Get your web at Conactive Internet Services: http://www.conactive.com
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Per Jessen <pe...@computer.org>.
Marc Perkel wrote:
> Get a modern email client.
>
Note that Kai didn't complain about the HTML, he comaplained that you're
_only_ sending the HTML. You should really send the text-portion along
too.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
Slightly OT: HTML in emails
Posted by Toni Mueller <su...@oeko.net>.
Hi,
On Tue, 15.12.2009 at 17:40:55 +0100, Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org> wrote:
> On tir 15 dec 2009 17:36:56 CET, Toni Mueller wrote
>> HTML in emails is usually a synonym for "F*CKING SH*T".
>
> most users that try doing it is maybe just trying to write in red or white :)
this is imho a dumb idea.
> but yes, i will also say html is not for email, but so many clients have
> it as default i have giving up with it, html is designed for webpages
I've not given up educating users, and if it weren't for a very few,
but very important users that I have yet been unable to educate, I'd be
trashing HTML emails on my server without further ado.
To all users I explain eg. that not using HTML email makes email safer
for them, plugging one big hole for incoming malware. A somewhat recent
precedent has been using manipulated images, referenced by a "cid:"
link, which works even when the user is offline. And I also explain
that they should not to unto their recipients what they don't want to
have done unto themselves. Usually this is sufficient that they at
least create an exception for me in their address book, if they
otherwise want to continue sending HTML emails.
Kind regards,
--Toni++
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>.
On tir 15 dec 2009 17:36:56 CET, Toni Mueller wrote
> HTML in emails is usually a synonym for "F*CKING SH*T".
most users that try doing it is maybe just trying to write in red or white :)
but yes, i will also say html is not for email, but so many clients
have it as default i have giving up with it, html is designed for
webpages
--
xpoint http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Toni Mueller <su...@oeko.net>.
Hi,
On Tue, 15.12.2009 at 08:22:44 -0800, Marc Perkel <ma...@perkel.com> wrote:
> Get a modern email client.
>
> Kai Schaetzl wrote:
>> Mark, can you *please* stop sending HTML-only messages to the list?
looks like I should start blacklisting individual subscribers.
HTML in emails is usually a synonym for "F*CKING SH*T".
Kind regards,
--Toni++
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Marc Perkel <ma...@perkel.com>.
Get a modern email client.
Kai Schaetzl wrote:
> Mark, can you *please* stop sending HTML-only messages to the list?
>
> Kai
>
>
Re: HTML in Messages
Posted by Bob O'Brien <bo...@barracuda.com>.
Kai Schaetzl wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <4B...@perkel.com>
> Mark, can you *please* stop sending HTML-only messages to the list?
>
> Kai
>
>
All the noise aside,
the message referenced by your threading header,
/at least when it arrived here/,
DID in fact contain a text-part
which appears to include everything it should.
Bob
--
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Kai Schaetzl <ma...@conactive.com>.
Mark, can you *please* stop sending HTML-only messages to the list?
Kai
--
Kai Schätzl, Berlin, Germany
Get your web at Conactive Internet Services: http://www.conactive.com
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Kevin Golding <ke...@caomhin.demon.co.uk>.
In article <4B...@perkel.com>, Marc Perkel <ma...@perkel.com>
writes
>
> Kevin Golding wrote:
>
>> bigfootinteractive.com. 3600 IN TXT "v=spf1
>> ip4:206.132.3.0/24 ip4:206.132.1.0/24 ip4:216.35.62.0/25
>> ip4:216.33.63.0/24 ip4:209.67.13.128/25 ip4:66.7.58.0/24 -all"
>
>>
> OK - I whitelisted that host as well.
>
It's possibly more one for Yellow tbh but 206.132.3.182 just hit again.
I've no idea how many of those IPs they actually send from but certainly
that's what hit ~5 minutes ago. I just did your remove thing but I
suspect it will re-appear if left alone. Not a great sign for Bigfoot
tbh, but so long as M&S keep using them it'll be an FP here.
Kevin
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Kevin Golding <ke...@caomhin.demon.co.uk>.
In article <4B...@perkel.com>, Marc Perkel <ma...@perkel.com>
writes
> If you have any other domain names for me to list let me know. I'm
> always looking to expand my white lists.
shop.marksandspencer.com is one I always see hitting black, and
SPF_HELO_PASS so...
shop.marksandspencer.com. 86400 IN TXT "v=spf1 include:bfi0.com
include:bigfootinteractive.com -all"
Which gives:
bfi0.com. 86400 IN TXT "v=spf1
ip4:93.191.146.0/23 ip4:206.132.3.0/24 ip4:206.132.1.0/24
ip4:216.35.62.0/25 ip4:216.33.63.0/24 ip4:209.67.13.128/25
ip4:208.70.142.0/24 ip4:208.70.143.0/24 -all"
bigfootinteractive.com. 3600 IN TXT "v=spf1
ip4:206.132.3.0/24 ip4:206.132.1.0/24 ip4:216.35.62.0/25
ip4:216.33.63.0/24 ip4:209.67.13.128/25 ip4:66.7.58.0/24 -all"
Kevin
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Michael Monnerie <mi...@is.it-management.at>.
On Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2009 Marc Perkel wrote:
> Every list is imperfect. In this case there were about 10 hits on the
> hi MX record and they didn't use QUIT to close the connection.
> Generally this indicates a virus. If they had used QUIT they
> wouldn't have been listed. Although I try to keep the list perfect,
> if an email server impersonates a spam bot then they are more likely
> to get on the wrong lists.
We've had a lot of mail hosts of clients on hostkarma. During the last
days, I had to remove these:
mtaout3.isp.ptt.rs[212.62.57.38]
(is an ISP, has mtaout1-4, so put all these on yellow)
mgate30.omv.com[193.186.185.30]
One of OMVs gates, a big oil company.
Don't know why they came on your list, you should check. At least for
that OMV gate, the listing occured Nov 26. I don't remember the other.
I'm willing to use your hostkarma list, and keep the tarbaby on some of
our domains so you can learn addresses. But currently there are *way*
too many FPs. I'd prefer to have no FPs and more spam passing through,
as FPs means work on my side, while spam is catched by the filters
anyway. Reliability of any blacklist is much more determined by the FPs
than by catched spam, IMO.
mfg zmi
--
// Michael Monnerie, Ing.BSc ----- http://it-management.at
// Tel: 0660 / 415 6531 .network.your.ideas.
//
// Wir haben zwei Häuser zu verkaufen:
// http://zmi.at/langegg/
// http://willhaben.at/iad/realestate/object?adId=15306857
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uh...@fantomas.sk>.
> On tir 01 dec 2009 02:16:04 CET, wrote
>> I believe Raymond's response was addressing the fact a server
>> connection could possibly be interrupted before it had a chance to
>> issue the SMTP QUIT command. I would think being listed for that alone
>> would be ridiculous.
On 01.12.09 02:20, Benny Pedersen wrote:
> if its this i would agree, cant exim see diff in not sending quit or
> drop connection ?
>
> postfix have lost connection, spam sign ?
It may depend on the number of lost connections.
Marc said he's investigating the problem, let's see the result
--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way.
RE: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by R-Elists <li...@abbacomm.net>.
>
> if it was just for me you would post it on maillists ? :)
>
> thanks for clearify it, atleast for me
>
Benny,
sure we would! as ummm ...well, you know, you are just so lovable... :-)
seriously, and the reason you are so lovable is that even if i read some
(not all) of your posts over and over, i cant figure out what you are
saying...
something lost in the translation maybe??? ;-)
- rh
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>.
On tir 01 dec 2009 12:27:58 CET, Mike Cardwell wrote
> When I say, "you," I'm refering to the people using the JMF lists,
> not specifically you Benny.
if it was just for me you would post it on maillists ? :)
thanks for clearify it, atleast for me
--
xpoint http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Mike Cardwell <sp...@lists.grepular.com>.
Benny Pedersen wrote:
>> I believe Raymond's response was addressing the fact a server
>> connection could possibly be interrupted before it had a chance to
>> issue the SMTP QUIT command. I would think being listed for that alone
>> would be ridiculous.
>
> if its this i would agree, cant exim see diff in not sending quit or
> drop connection ?
It can. This is exactly what makes the "noquit" list possible.
Exim has two relevant ACLs. One that is run when the connection is
closed after a QUIT, and one that is run when the connection is closed
without a QUIT. So one of those two is run at the end of every
connection, depending on how it ended.
As I understand it, Marc has added some configuration to his system so
that when the "Closed without QUIT" ACL is run, he adds the IP address
to a queryable list.
It is described here:
http://wiki.junkemailfilter.com/index.php/Spam_DNS_Lists#Tracking_use_of_QUIT
It is described as "Experimental"
His list gives three responses:
* 127.0.1.1 - QUIT is used
* 127.0.1.2 - No QUIT is used
* 127.0.1.3 - Mixed - Quit is used sometimes
If you don't want the "Closed without QUIT" part of the list, there's
nothing stopping you from using every other feature of his lists without
using this particulary part. You wouldn't use a DNSBL without knowing
how it works first would you?
When I say, "you," I'm refering to the people using the JMF lists, not
specifically you Benny.
--
Mike Cardwell - IT Consultant and LAMP developer
Cardwell IT Ltd. (UK Reg'd Company #06920226) http://cardwellit.com/
Technical Blog: https://secure.grepular.com/blog/
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>.
On tir 01 dec 2009 02:16:04 CET, wrote
> I believe Raymond's response was addressing the fact a server
> connection could possibly be interrupted before it had a chance to
> issue the SMTP QUIT command. I would think being listed for that
> alone would be ridiculous.
if its this i would agree, cant exim see diff in not sending quit or
drop connection ?
postfix have lost connection, spam sign ?
--
xpoint http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by d....@yournetplus.com.
Quoting Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>:
> On tir 01 dec 2009 00:51:38 CET, Raymond Dijkxhoorn wrote
>> So if you have a crappy connection towards your mailserver Marc you
>> can get listed, thats rather funny, and annoying. Connections do
>> break also when not running a botnet... pfff....
>
> maybe i am dump, but what do you mean by the above ?
>
> if my internet connection is down for 30 days i get listed for not
> being in service ?, how magical can my ip change when its static ?
>
> worst case of admins is ones that accept mail from localhost as not spam
I believe Raymond's response was addressing the fact a server
connection could possibly be interrupted before it had a chance to
issue the SMTP QUIT command. I would think being listed for that alone
would be ridiculous.
Re: FP on blacklist hostkarma
Posted by Benny Pedersen <me...@junc.org>.
On tir 01 dec 2009 00:51:38 CET, Raymond Dijkxhoorn wrote
> So if you have a crappy connection towards your mailserver Marc you
> can get listed, thats rather funny, and annoying. Connections do
> break also when not running a botnet... pfff....
maybe i am dump, but what do you mean by the above ?
if my internet connection is down for 30 days i get listed for not
being in service ?, how magical can my ip change when its static ?
worst case of admins is ones that accept mail from localhost as not spam
--
xpoint http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html