Partychat #qpiddocumentation chat log - 12/05/2008

[Danushka Menikkumbura <da...@wso2.com>]

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i'd like to start out by asking (1) how long 
should this meeting be, and (2) any changes to the

agenda
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] for (1) - should we go until 10 if there 
continues to be business and put off anything else until

next week?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] any opinions?
["Martin"] time boxing is good
["Martin"] If it is important to discuss then we should fight for it to 
be at the top of the agenda
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] any objections to setting a limit of 1 hour 
on this meeting?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i agree with that

Danushka:
i agree too

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ok, any objections?
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] +1

Danushka:
+1

partychat:
["Suran"] agreed.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] Decision: go 1 hour, then end
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] Changes to the agenda?
jonathan.robie@gmail.com waits about 30 seconds

Danushka:
I dont think so

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ok, no changes to the agenda
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] Let's go to action item review
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-1. Martin & Senaka to rough out a plan 
for java broker docs
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] anything happen on this front?
["Martin"] Senaka and I haven't yet discussed the issue.
["Martin"] I've had to much to do locally

Danushka:
And Senaka is not in

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-2. Jonathan to push on donating Red Hat 
tutorials
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i've got people working on this, it's not 
closed yet (to my knowledge)
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] basically the red hat folks and the apache 
folks need to discuss this and make sure there are no

issues
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] so both action items remain open
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-3. Danushka & Jonathan & Senaka to 
review existing tutorial documentation
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i got feedback from danushka, i'm working it 
in. until we donate, i'm the only person who can

check in.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-4. Aidan & Rajith & Danushka to scope 
out Forrest conversion and do a prototype of a few

pages
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] Aidan - anything happening on this front?
["aidan"] Danushka's had a look at it, but that's about it AFAIK
["aidan"] I've been totally swamped this week

Danushka:
yeah thats all

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ok, me too, actually
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-5. Senaka & Jonathan & Suran to write 
Readme for doc generation

Danushka:
i could generate site using forrest

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] that's moot until we are doing doc generation
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] danushka - you can do that working from 
docbook instances, i assume

Danushka:
but we need a work plan
like start from where

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] well, some of the docs are yet to be donated

Danushka:
Aidan has done a decent amount of work

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] red hat is considering donating the install 
guides and management guides along with the tutorial,

hasn't happened yet
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] so i think we start with what we already have
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] and the action item is to do a few pages, 
including html and docbook xml, i'd guess
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] letting us know what the issues are

Danushka:
jonathan: you had a look at what we have already?

partychat:
["aidan"] I think the first step is to get a sample site up somewhere, 
then work on the look and feel so we can happily

convert it
["aidan"] s/convert/convert to/
"aidan" meant I think the first step is to get a sample site up 
somewhere, then work on the look and feel so we can happily

convert to it
jonathan.robie@gmail.com agrees with aidan
["aidan"] i haven't had the to put it up on people.apache.org, I can't 
ssh from work and my non-office Qpid time is extremely

limited at the moment
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] aidan - what needs to happen to get a sample 
site up? how much content do you need for that?
["aidan"] very little actually needs doing, forrest site && scp -r 
should do it
["aidan"] the content is mostly taken from a confluence export from a 
while ago, along with a sitemap.xml that describes the

navigation
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] k - what's a realistic time frame for this?
["aidan"] it would be good to re-export confluence and update the navigation

Danushka:
and we are not going to bother about graphics for the time being?

partychat:
["aidan"] I can probably get some time to do it on Wednesday or 
Thursday, I have to get M2.1 released tonight and I have an

essay due for class that I need to work on.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] aidan - ok, is next monday a reasonable ETA?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] this is for the first prototype
["aidan"] danushka: we need to get the look up to an acceptable 
standard, i have the artistic abilities of a comatose mouse

though, so somebody else needs to do that ;)
["aidan"] jonathan: that should be fine
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] aidan - are you sure comatose mice aren't 
artistic?

Danushka:
we need something running by the next meeting
?

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ok, let's get time frames for the rest of the 
action items
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-1. Martin & Senaka to rough out a plan 
for java broker docs
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] martin - is this reasonable for next monday? 
just the plan, not the finished docs?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-2. Jonathan to push on donating Red Hat 
tutorials
["Martin"] Jonathan: I'm sure I can send a suggetion or two out for 
co-ordination with Senaka.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i will push for monday, this does depend on 
both red hat and apache, so it's hard to be sure. i'm

pushing also for other docs to be donated
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] thanks, martin
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-3. Danushka & Jonathan & Danushka to 
review existing tutorial documentation
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] this is sort of done, but i'm rewriting 
everything so we will need another review
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i'm going to leave it open and ask for a new 
review when the new docs are ready. they should be

ready monday (but i don't have an action item for the new docs ;-> )
[suranjay@gmail.com] i can do that.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] A-001-5. Senaka & Jonathan & Suran to write 
Readme for doc generation
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i think this has to be done after we know how 
to do the doc generation
[suranjay@gmail.com] yes.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] So i think i have time frames i can put on 
the action items for the minutes and the next agenda
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] move on to status report?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] 2. Status Report

Danushka:
jonathan: one second

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] 2.1 Java Broker Docs: Martin & Senaka
2.2 Tutorial: Jonathan & Danushka & Suran
2.3 Forrest Conversion: Aidan & Rajith & Danushka
2.4 Readmes: Senaka & Jonathan & Suran
jonathan.robie@gmail.com holds one second

Danushka:
we have not set time frames for doc generation
?

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] danushka - no, only for the first prototype
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i would expect to set times for doc 
generation after the first prototype, when we have a little

more experience

Danushka:
OK

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] and also perhaps after the remaining docs are 
available in docbook format
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] anything else before moving on to 2. Status?

Danushka:
no good to go

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] k, back to status
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] 2. Status Report

2.1 Java Broker Docs: Martin & Senaka
2.2 Tutorial: Jonathan & Danushka & Suran
2.3 Forrest Conversion: Aidan & Rajith & Danushka
2.4 Readmes: Senaka & Jonathan & Suran
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] anythng new on the java broker? i think 
martin implied no
["Martin"] Will make sure we get something done for next week
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] great - thanks!
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] on the tutorial: i'm rewriting for 0-10, i 
rewrote all the python examples, mick is helping with

new "running the examples" sections
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ETA this week, hoping to be able to donate 
them monday if The Powers That Be cooperate
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] we/ve done 2.3. Forrest Conversion already
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] 2.4 Readmes - i would like to discuss with 
Senaka and Suran before giving times on this, i expect

we will start next week for the new examples when they are stable
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] Anything else to report/discuss on status?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] going once ....

Danushka:
jonathan: in 2.2

partychat:
jonathan.robie@gmail.com listens to danushka

Danushka:
i can help you with any C++ related stuff
samples, etc

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] great! for this coming week i'd like to stick 
with documenting the existing examples, should we

add an action item for brainstorming new examples?

Danushka:
yeah that would be better

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] there are two things i'd like to maintain in 
any examples:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] 1. using the same framework for each example 
within a given language so it's easy to compare
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] 2. implementing all examples interoperably 
across all langauges
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] so any time we do a new example in c++, that 
implies someone needs to do it for python and java.

that someone might be me ;->
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] who else works in python/java?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] (who has time to work on examples)
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ok, i'm not hearing any offers right away
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] Anything else we need to discuss on status?

Danushka:
and we need to decide on what other sample that we are gonna have

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] yup

Danushka:
other than what we have at the moment

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i suggest we put that on the agenda for 
future meetings, and discuss in email

Danushka:
or else we can have a wiki

partychat:
["Suran"] I can put in some work on the java samples.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] thanks, suran
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] danushka - i'd suggest we stick with docbook 
+ email + writing the examples, and not try to do a

wiki too

Danushka:
nope i mean just as a scratch pad
until we are done with examples

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] Danushka - let's take that to email (it's not 
on the agenda, we can put it on a future agenda)

Danushka:
fine
agreed

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] last item that is on the agenda is martin's email
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com]

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-qpid-dev/200805.mbox/%3c99e30fe50805050812x127263ceteba2c62743ecc914@mail.

gmail.com%3e
 > For future sessions I think these are areas where we are a little weak
 > just now, in no particular order.
 >
 > . Configuration Documentation (SSL, broker config, client system 
properties)
 > . User Guides (Message Store, Management Console)
 > . Interoperability Documentation (Qpid | RabbitMQ | OpenMQ)
 > . Functional Documentation. (ACLs, Plug-ins, Authentication)
 > . JIRA Process Guide
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] here are some ways we can deal with this

Danushka:
Mostly documentation

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] yes, this is only about documentation, i think

Danushka:
except for the last one?
we are going to have a doc for that as well?

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i suspect he means documenting how to enter 
JIRAs for the project
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] is that right, martin?
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] JIRA process we need to discuss on the list
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] when to raise, when to progress through states
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] what constitutes resolving vs. closing
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] how things get scoped for releases
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] all of this needs to be agreed and then documented
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] rob - i agree, we can write a document that 
reflects any such decisions, but the list needs to

make these decisions.
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] agreeing needs to happen first, however :-)
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] quite
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] documenting is the easy part ;->
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] if i understand correctly, martin, the 
following may be addressed by red hat contributions
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] . Configuration Documentation (SSL, broker 
config, client system properties)
. User Guides (Message Store, Management Console)
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] though the message store .... hmmm, is that 
part of qpid per se now? i thought the storage options

were based on modules not in qpid
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] at red hat, for instance, we have a bdb store 
that is not in qpid, and i think licensing issues

were part of that?
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] For the Java Broker there is an Apache 
licensed message store also
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] rob, martin, am i getting that right?
Martin catches up after boss was asking questions
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] and there is no reason why someone might not 
provide an Apache licensed store for the C++ broker
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] in fact I rather hope they will some day
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] but until they do, we don't have anything to 
document, do we?
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] For the Java we do
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ah! i didn't know that. then there is 
something to be done there.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] martin & senaka are doing the java broker 
docs. can this be folded into that?
[rob.j.godfrey@gmail.com] I also think that we should probably talk to 
those people who maintain the java Broker BDB store

and tell them to write some documents too ;-)
["Martin"] Jonathan: the user guide for the Message Store is for the 
message store tool for the java broker. It is

independent of any store implementation
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] Martin - there's documentation like that for 
the c++ broker too, it says how to invoke a store

generically
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] rob - who maintains the java broker bdb store?
["Martin"] The java message store tool allows you to use to use the java 
broker configuration and inspect the configured

message store
["Martin"] Currently we do :)
jonathan.robie@gmail.com looks at martin expectantly
["Martin"] I haven't seen anyone outside of qpid-dev committing to the 
JBoss repository.
senakafdo@gmail.com joined the chat
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] hi senaka
senakafdo@gmail.com is now known as senaka
["Martin"] the mstool is a separate app that no-one really knows about 
as I haven't documented it.
["senaka"] hi jonathan
["Martin"] It is of course most useful with a persistent store as the in 
memory store will always be empty on start up.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] martin - ok, so that's something you can do? 
document it?
["Martin"] yes and yes.. unfortunately.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ok, i have no idea what this means
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] . Interoperability Documentation (Qpid | 
RabbitMQ | OpenMQ)
["Martin"] jonathan: yes I can do it, yes document it. unfortunately , 
as that means I'll get an action item to do it.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] martin: yup, you got an action item ;->
["Martin"] Ah .. thought you didn't follow that one but it is the next 
line you don't follow

Danushka:
when it comes to C++ docs under "Loading extra modules" i can see 
libbdbstore.so?

partychat:
["Martin"] I think we should have documentation about our own 
interoperability such as SASL

(http://cwiki.apache.org/qpid/qpid-interoperability-documentation.html)

Danushka:
nothing else on BDB

partychat:
["Martin"] Danushka: the BDB is for java and has docs here : 
http://cwiki.apache.org/qpid/3rd-party-libraries.html
["senaka"] martin: there is a bdb for C++ as well?
["Martin"] no
["senaka"] libbdbstore.so is not Java for sure
["senaka"] or is it?
["Martin"] No. I don't recall a BDB store for C++ but I could be wrong. 
looks to c++ peeps
["Martin"] The java is 100% java
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] martin - red hat has a bdb store for c++
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] it's not part of qpid
["senaka"] danushka: here we go
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] here we go?
["Martin"] Cool .. thought the persistent store was a RH store not bdb 
or is there two ?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] we use berkeley db in our persistent store
["senaka"] jonathan: explained the situation to danushka
["senaka"] :)
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] martin - i lost partychat briefly, did you 
respoind on the interop docs?
["Martin"] I think we should have documentation about our own 
interoperability such as SASL

(http://cwiki.apache.org/qpid/qpid-interoperability-documentation.html)
["Martin"] But also we should be nice and try and docuement how to use 
qpid with other AMQP products .. much like RabbitMQ

have a page on interop with Qpid.
["senaka"] martin: +1
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] martin - is this something you would sign up for?
["Martin"] Potentially, but I have quite a lot on just now.

Danushka:
:)

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] is there anyone who has time to do this?

Danushka:
but this is a must have

partychat:
["Martin"] I have place olders on confluence just now but can flesh them 
out for peeps to pop in the the testing results etc.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] danushka - did i just hear you volunteer?
["senaka"] martin: btw, the Java broker docs are more or less similar to 
the qpidd docs... I've just started working on

them...
["Martin"] Excellent.

Danushka:
jonathan: +1

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] i'll put danushka down for the interop docs
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] ok, it's 10
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] so we're done
["senaka"] I can give a hand on that too until i start on other areas
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] anything else that MUST be discussed? i'm 
assuming we meet next week at the same time
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] senaka - you got it!

Danushka:
jonathan:btw we are supposed to have a FAQ?

partychat:
["senaka"] jonathan: did we start 1/2 earlier than the planned time?

Danushka:
it was there in the initial plan i guess

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] danushka - i'll add the question to the 
agenda for next week
["senaka"] 1/2 hr I mean
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] senaka - no, but sri lanka's time zones are 
30 minutes off of EST
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] senaka - it is now 10.03 a.m.
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] (EST, i mean)
["senaka"] so you mean you started one hour ago?
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] senaka - yes

Danushka:
senaka: yeah

partychat:
["senaka"] oh!
["Martin"] Can we work in UTC?
["senaka"] +1

Danushka:
senaka: i told you
+1

partychat:
["senaka"] danushka: I was thinking that folks turn up early rather
["senaka"] UTC is a lot better
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] DECISION: jonathan to use UTC for time 
announcements
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] OK, we're done?
jonathan.robie@gmail.com waits 30 seconds for objections
jonathan.robie@gmail.com pounds the gavel and declares that court is no 
longer in session
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] thanks, y'all, same time next week. well, the 
UTC equivalent of the same time ...
["senaka"] yes please
["Suran"] Have a nice day all.
["senaka"] I was assuming that we are starting now :(
["senaka"] 1 hr later than the time

Danushka:
senaka : ;)

partychat:
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] y'all should move to north carolina, it would 
simplify this time zone issue

Danushka:
senaka : i will send you the history

partychat:
["senaka"] great
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] can someone post the chat log to qpid-dev?
["senaka"] that's better
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] senaka - we gave you all the action items

Danushka:
jonathan: will do

partychat:
["senaka"] do I have any?
["senaka"] ok I will read it
[jonathan.robie@gmail.com] just the ones you had