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Posted to community@apache.org by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> on 2004/09/28 11:09:49 UTC
Style of community building
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 September 2004 09:30, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>>If you want to change my mind, that's how you start: tell me what is the
>>benefit for the ASF in promoting this style of community building,
>>despite its long-term history of social energy waste, frustration and
>>contract instability.
>
> In all due respect, IMHO this thread was never meant to be about community
> style building. Initially I brought up an issue of "knowing the playing
> field" to a more explicit extent, and secondary about level of transparency.
OK, new thread.
If you want to change my mind, you also need to start at the same place
as Stefano indicated.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@mvdb.net>.
Hi Ken,
> 'not been interested in history': have you never heard that 'those who will
> not learn from history are condemned to repeat it' ? how are lessons to
> be learnt is not from examining past situations and their resolutions?
History doesn't mean anything, people just think it has meaning.
You can not change it, you cannot not learn from it, it has
no power, so looking back is a waste of energy.
What was yesterday, will never be today.
Wasting too much time in being in the past, loses focus on what you want to achieve / accomplish
now.
The lessons learned in the past are not the lessons we need to learn now.
I my view most people do that automatically.
Mvgr,
Martin
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RE: Style of community building
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: 29 September 2004 13:17
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Style of community building
<snip>
> ... how are lessons to
> be learnt is not from examining past situations and their resolutions?
Have a few thoughts I put together which examine the past situation as
part of my reply to a public post from Stefano over on the dev mailing
list. Seems to me that there maybe something in it that is relevant to
the subject of community building (or at least some of the aspect of
social and group rules that play into community evolution).
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=109645485530289&w=4
Stephen.
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
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Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 September 2004 06:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> And when asked *expliticly* to address our concerns about
>> community-style, you just look the other way.
>
> Until this day, I have not been interested in history, there is no point at
> pointing fingers and place blame. I have a long list of people (myself,
> Stephen, you Stefano, and *many* others) who have their fair share of blame
> in the Avalon 'disaster'. Don't point fingers at others without pointing at
> your own nose first, is my motto.
the cases are not parallel. the fact that someone has behaved incorrectly
does not provide licence for others to do so as well. the 'he did it first'
defence does not wash.
the cases are not parallel. in this case, stefano is not *just* a peer;
he is also someone to whom the projects and individuals are answerable,
as a member and director of the foundation.
perhaps there was insufficient context in stefano's remark; i myself am not
sure precisely to what he is referring. however, your response did not
address his remark either way.
'not been interested in history': have you never heard that 'those who will
not learn from history are condemned to repeat it' ? how are lessons to
be learnt is not from examining past situations and their resolutions?
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 06:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
<snip content="appreciated" />
> If you believed in the technology, the brand should not care.
I think this is probably the best advice I have gotten all week. Seriously!
> And when asked *expliticly* to address our concerns about
> community-style, you just look the other way.
Until this day, I have not been interested in history, there is no point at
pointing fingers and place blame. I have a long list of people (myself,
Stephen, you Stefano, and *many* others) who have their fair share of blame
in the Avalon 'disaster'. Don't point fingers at others without pointing at
your own nose first, is my motto.
> Tell me: what would *you* do in my shoes?
Well, that is a highly hypothetical question, isn't it?
I am not the master creator of communities, who take pride in stepping away
when he thinks he is an obstacle to the community, yet steps back in and with
'determination' sets 'half paralyzed' projects back on track. YOU are really
good at it, so what would I know of what to do in this situation?
I am a simple man, who likes to chitchat over a beer in an Irish Pub, or as a
poor man's substitute for airtickets, ICQ, and would probably spend more time
with people at a social level, accepting that all are not equal and not
expecting big changes from them, than re-iteration of rhetoric. Even people I
don't like can teach me something positive. And often people I don't like at
first (like my wife) can be much more genuine than first impression, or what
is expressed in fruitless debates and flamefests.
What would I do? Perhaps provide some better guidance of how to make things
better and less critique of what's wrong? But then I again, I am not in your
shoes, and most likely never will be.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Dave Brondsema <br...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 September 2004 23:18, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > In any case, this does not answer the question as to how the lack of a
> > top level project for Metro would damage a commercial user.
>
> IMHO,
> 1. Metro doesn't belong any more in Avalon than Cocoon belongs in Tomcat.
> 2. The described 'worst-case' scenario, makes me not inclined to take Merlin
> away from the ASF.
>
> from that follows a set of options,
> a. A TLP.
> b. The Incubator.
> c. Another project/federation.
>
> a. is what we have opted for as the most preferred scenario from our
> perspective.
> b. is in the group considered a "death sentence". Be that an overstatement,
> some users are indicating it to be a signal of the negative kind.
> c. we are unable to see that the technology fits naturally within any other
> project, but I am all ears if there is an opinion towards this.
>
The incubator should not be considered a "death sentence". It is only
such for projects which will die anyway. The death of an incubated
project is less negative for PR, etc. than the death of a TLP.
The incubator defines a process for a new project to get approval to
become a TLP. If you believe Metro will be a successful project, moving
it quickly through the incubator should not be difficult.
--
Dave Brondsema : dave@brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net : personal
http://www.splike.com : programming
http://csx.calvin.edu : student org
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 29 Sep 2004, at 12:19, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 September 2004 17:55, Steven Noels wrote:
>
> <snip content="good material" />
>
>> One should give and take with consideration and balance.
>
> Noted and Agreed. AND respectfully wished this would be true in all
> directions.
I'm confident that people still have positive energy left for a
productive and future-looking debate & resolution of this matter. I'm
also confident that suggesting this is _not_ the case isn't helping you
nor us. Speak freely without doublespeak and anyone gets to be heard.
Heck, the changed tone of this thread even convinced myself that I
still had some patience to look for a resolution.
> If you shout loud enough, noone will hear you.
*grin*
Please keep in mind that going silent now will require your peers to
speak up or else people will move along - nothing here (anymore).
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 17:55, Steven Noels wrote:
<snip content="good material" />
> One should give and take with consideration and balance.
Noted and Agreed. AND respectfully wished this would be true in all
directions.
I have also lately been made aware of actions that I do not comprehend, and
will politely refrain from any further public debate in the ASF political
arena.
I am probably just another idiot. Please, ignore me, I have caused too much
aggrevation, and withstood too much humiliation, for/from this community, so
I ashamefully withdraw back under my rock and get on with better things in
life, like getting a great product through the door...
Cheers
Niclas Hedhman
- - - - -
If you shout loud enough, noone will hear you.
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 29 Sep 2004, at 00:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> the Lenya people went thru hell and back with the incubator, also
> accepting policies that were continously changing, demonstrating lots
> of patience and will to collaborate, they hang on, even when it was
> frustrating and *I* was pissed at the incubator PMC for not saying the
> same thing the same week.
>
> They had big customers, they risked their assets in the event of a
> 'death sentence' (a real one) and they made several big mistakes that
> forced the mentors to get in and say "look, one other thing like this
> and you are out".
>
> They learned, they stimulated a community, which is now diverse,
> friendly and healthy from all possible senses and even ego attachments
> to some of the architectural issues were diluted in the process and
> there is no more sign of that.
>
> Result, a long time after that, they graduated. They *earned it*. The
> hard way, now they are trusted peers.
To put things in perspective: I was one of the folks giving them hard
times at regular occasions. I also became a de-facto Mentor during
their Incubation process. I'm a member of their TLP PMC now - upon
their own request. And in terms of bias, my company happens to be
releasing a somehow competing open source CMS framework in the next few
weeks. So what we have now is a bunch of people who are willing to
collaborate, even if personal or business interests differ, for the
good of the community. Yes, we had times where people grew increasingly
weary over all the "fuzz" ASF was requiring from them. But we choose to
leave these times behind and look into the future instead. Lenya will
probably have outlived the longest incubation process ever, and I think
everyone learned from it.
Looking at your replies, I still have difficulties to understand your
real intentions and real feelings towards the ASF processes and
participants. I see a great care about your technology, of which I'm a
happy user, which however somehow is dwarfed by your nits about ASF
community practices and people - yet you seem to be very eager to
provide Metro with the ASF brand.
However, please don't forget that the foundation is growing at ever
accelerating rates, with 1K of committers so far, close to 200 separate
source repositories, close to 30 TLPs - yet you encounter the same
policy-suggesting people everywhere. That means patience of people can
grow thin quickly if they need to "make exceptions" for new projects
with new policies - which unfortunately is the result of our current
size. It is not in the interest of the foundation to "provide" said
brand to a project which doesn't like to fit in somehow, which doesn't
respect what we have achieved so far, and which doesn't respect its
(inter-)project peers and senior participants of Apache, and feels
cornered at the same time, _even_ if that project has a compelling
technical vision.
I'm not saying you or other Metro folks have intentions to follow or
stay on a collision course any longer, I'm just trying to point you out
what the logical consequences are when someone wants to join a group.
One should give and take with consideration and balance.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> b. The Incubator.
[...]
> b. is in the group considered a "death sentence". Be that an overstatement,
> some users are indicating it to be a signal of the negative kind.
Steven already said loud and clear and with very nice wording, but let
me state one example for all: the Lenya people went thru hell and back
with the incubator, also accepting policies that were continously
changing, demonstrating lots of patience and will to collaborate, they
hang on, even when it was frustrating and *I* was pissed at the
incubator PMC for not saying the same thing the same week.
They had big customers, they risked their assets in the event of a
'death sentence' (a real one) and they made several big mistakes that
forced the mentors to get in and say "look, one other thing like this
and you are out".
They learned, they stimulated a community, which is now diverse,
friendly and healthy from all possible senses and even ego attachments
to some of the architectural issues were diluted in the process and
there is no more sign of that.
Result, a long time after that, they graduated. They *earned it*. The
hard way, now they are trusted peers.
Merlin/Metro still has to go thru all that and you tell everybody that
you think that would be a death sentence?
Believe me, Niclas, you were a lot more closer to TLP a week ago where I
was willing to believe that Stephen was the problem and all you guys
were just trying to help out and work with me to fix him.
Now I think that several people in Merlin just want to cover their ass
for their poor decisions and they don't care if they will abuse the
foundation (and disrespect fellow committers) in doing so.
If you believed in the technology, the brand should not care.
If you believed in the brand and in what it stands for, then you would
not think that you would be killed by incubation.
If you are not willing to pay the price of being inside the foundation,
you don't deserve to be here.
You want an easy way to earn the best position in the foundation and you
are not willing to pay anything for it, just waiving some silly
guilt-play for those who invested in a technology without understanding
that the dynamics behind it were screwed.
Well, this is *abusive*. This is wrong. This is just an insult for those
people that went thru all that to earn their merit.
And when asked *expliticly* to address our concerns about
community-style, you just look the other way.
Tell me: what would *you* do in my shoes?
--
Stefano.
Re: Style of community building
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
> 2. The described 'worst-case' scenario, makes me not inclined to take
> Merlin
> away from the ASF.
Are you hinting at the bank story? Hm. Quite frankly, I think people
are being oversold on the size of the Merlin community ATM, and
individual cases are being extrapolated into broad tendencies. We use
Merlin in a project of ours, BTW. The code and vision are good. If the
license terms stay the same, we wouldn't care too much about whether
Merlin is an Apache project or not. I must honestly say I've been
personally considering to offer you guys a Subversion repository if you
really don't want to go to Sourceforge.
> from that follows a set of options,
> a. A TLP.
> b. The Incubator.
> c. Another project/federation.
>
> a. is what we have opted for as the most preferred scenario from our
> perspective.
For better or for worse, creating TLPs to fulfill personal desires
isn't the business of the ASF. I see the Metro TLP request as a way to
steer around the actual problems, and I also see the value of being
part of the Apache family being less appreciated than it should.
Whether you like this or not, the foundation isn't only about simple
implementation or interpretation of rules - it's primarily about
people. If people start evaluating rules as to check whether there's a
way to still settle their own private agendas, something rotten is
going on.
> b. is in the group considered a "death sentence". Be that an
> overstatement,
> some users are indicating it to be a signal of the negative kind.
Being a member of the Incubator PMC, this obviously hits some nerves
with me. Any ASF project, at any time, should have no issues at all
with passing the simple criteria that were established in order to be
able to enter the foundation. Saying incubation would mean a death
sentence for Metro means you already know about severe issues with
these criteria. Or you suspect that we are biased in judging Metro
along these criteria. If that would be the case, I'm really sure that
everyone on the Incubation PMC is mature enough to abstain if he feels
too biased.
> c. we are unable to see that the technology fits naturally within any
> other
> project, but I am all ears if there is an opinion towards this.
An confrontational but well-wishing advise from me would be to take
Metro out of Apache for 6 to 12 months, and re-approach Apache as a
fresh project with no murky past after that.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 28 September 2004 23:18, Sam Ruby wrote:
> "long-lived community" is the key phrase.
yes.
> Successful communities outlast their leaders.
Agree.
> In any case, this does not answer the question as to how the lack of a
> top level project for Metro would damage a commercial user.
IMHO,
1. Metro doesn't belong any more in Avalon than Cocoon belongs in Tomcat.
2. The described 'worst-case' scenario, makes me not inclined to take Merlin
away from the ASF.
from that follows a set of options,
a. A TLP.
b. The Incubator.
c. Another project/federation.
a. is what we have opted for as the most preferred scenario from our
perspective.
b. is in the group considered a "death sentence". Be that an overstatement,
some users are indicating it to be a signal of the negative kind.
c. we are unable to see that the technology fits naturally within any other
project, but I am all ears if there is an opinion towards this.
Cheers
Niclas
P.S. Thanks for your patience.
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 September 2004 22:08, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>>>Hindsight is easy, and I am not sure whether your intention is to punish
>>>parts (not all) of those who made it happen, plus some people who hasn't
>>>been involved (for instance commercial users).
>>
>>The intent is not to punish anyone, at all. For example, how are
>>commercial users damaged in any way by the way the ASF choses to
>>organize its work into projects? This is not meant to be a rhetorical
>>question, I am genuinely curious.
>
> I will give you one particular example, as I personally feel somewhat
> responsible for dragging him into this mess.
> One of the most active users with Merlin is Andreas Oberhack, who works with
> financial institutions. He have just secured the first phase of a massive
> undertaking for a German bank. According to him, persuading the technical IT
> department of the downsides of J2EE and the really positive sides of Merlin
> in large and complex applications. However, the management in banks are
> generally very conservative about outside products in general and OSS in
> particular. He spent the majority of "selling Merlin" on the notions of the
> liberal ASL, the long-lived community behind it, access to the sources, and
> the usual arguments in favour of OSS and particularly BSD-styled products.
> How much that management based their decision on the solidity of the ASF is
> uncertain, but hate to envision that Andreas would loose any additional
> phases of work, or worse mis-representing the ASF and its longevity of
> products and be held liable, over this. I am not saying it will happen if we
> move Metro elsewhere, just the thought makes me at unease.
>
> I hope that puts things in a perspective.
"long-lived community" is the key phrase.
I started Gump. Gump has essentially been completely rewritten since I
last made any major contribution to it. Yet the community remains. And
the interfaces (in the form of data definitions, in this case) are stable.
Successful communities outlast their leaders.
In any case, this does not answer the question as to how the lack of a
top level project for Metro would damage a commercial user.
>>>Did my suggestion reach you at all, or is it considered, what Ken refers
>>>to as, a "hand wave" ?
>
>>When someone points out that Ken has erred, he investigates the root
>>cause, shares it, and takes full responsibility for the error.
>
> Some miscommunication must have occurred. :o)
> I wasn't asking about Ken, just used a term he has used to dismiss statements
> from me previously. "Hand wave" == "Nothing to take note of".
>
> Instead, I suggested that we learn from the Avalon experience, and try to
> establish a mechanism that safe guard all projects in the ASF from it
> happening elsewhere in the future.
> I spoke of "Markers" indicating something is not right, and "Safety Valves"
> (Aaron, not values) to steer things back on track, long before we issue "...
> severe reservations of ... being part of...".
I will note that the key portion of my reply has been elided, and that
another discussion has been inserted.
People who know me will attest to the fact that I can be annoyingly
patient and persistant.
We can discuss other things if you like, but until there is a proposal
which adequately covers the technical and community aspects, you won't
have this director's vote.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 28 September 2004 22:08, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > Hindsight is easy, and I am not sure whether your intention is to punish
> > parts (not all) of those who made it happen, plus some people who hasn't
> > been involved (for instance commercial users).
>
> The intent is not to punish anyone, at all. For example, how are
> commercial users damaged in any way by the way the ASF choses to
> organize its work into projects? This is not meant to be a rhetorical
> question, I am genuinely curious.
I will give you one particular example, as I personally feel somewhat
responsible for dragging him into this mess.
One of the most active users with Merlin is Andreas Oberhack, who works with
financial institutions. He have just secured the first phase of a massive
undertaking for a German bank. According to him, persuading the technical IT
department of the downsides of J2EE and the really positive sides of Merlin
in large and complex applications. However, the management in banks are
generally very conservative about outside products in general and OSS in
particular. He spent the majority of "selling Merlin" on the notions of the
liberal ASL, the long-lived community behind it, access to the sources, and
the usual arguments in favour of OSS and particularly BSD-styled products.
How much that management based their decision on the solidity of the ASF is
uncertain, but hate to envision that Andreas would loose any additional
phases of work, or worse mis-representing the ASF and its longevity of
products and be held liable, over this. I am not saying it will happen if we
move Metro elsewhere, just the thought makes me at unease.
I hope that puts things in a perspective.
> > Did my suggestion reach you at all, or is it considered, what Ken refers
> > to as, a "hand wave" ?
> When someone points out that Ken has erred, he investigates the root
> cause, shares it, and takes full responsibility for the error.
Some miscommunication must have occurred. :o)
I wasn't asking about Ken, just used a term he has used to dismiss statements
from me previously. "Hand wave" == "Nothing to take note of".
Instead, I suggested that we learn from the Avalon experience, and try to
establish a mechanism that safe guard all projects in the ASF from it
happening elsewhere in the future.
I spoke of "Markers" indicating something is not right, and "Safety Valves"
(Aaron, not values) to steer things back on track, long before we issue "...
severe reservations of ... being part of...".
I was hoping, that irregardless of what happens to Avalon/Metro, that this
would be of interest of the ASF at large, since although you have harmony in
most (all?) projects today, that doesn't necessary mean it will always
prevail as people come and people go, new projects arrive and so forth.
History can't be changed, but one should try to learn from it and avoid the
same mistakes in the future.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 September 2004 20:27, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>>Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>>
>>>Rightly or wrongly so, the tone of "competition" in Avalon was set well
>>>before the emergence of Merlin. That was bad. So now the train was
>>>moving, and noone pulled the breaks, not any individual, not the PMC, not
>>>the PMC Chair, not the community, not the Board - noone. That was also
>>>bad.
>>
>>I can't fix the past, but...
>>
>>Sam reaches for brakes.
>>
>>Sam grasps brakes.
>>
>>Sam pulls.
>
> That (whatever the pull symbolizes) should have been done 18-24 months ago :o)
Agreed.
> Hindsight is easy, and I am not sure whether your intention is to punish parts
> (not all) of those who made it happen, plus some people who hasn't been
> involved (for instance commercial users).
The intent is not to punish anyone, at all. For example, how are
commercial users damaged in any way by the way the ASF choses to
organize its work into projects? This is not meant to be a rhetorical
question, I am genuinely curious.
> Did my suggestion reach you at all, or is it considered, what Ken refers to
> as, a "hand wave" ?
Since you asked, I'll share my perception. Warning: it might not be
what you expect.
When someone points out that Ken has erred, he investigates the root
cause, shares it, and takes full responsibility for the error.
In this case, somebody pointed out an instance where somebody has erred,
and I interpreted the response as "sure I erred, but everybody else did
too, and here is some other irrelevant consideration".
I consider those portions of the message to be hand waves.
We can discuss other things if you like, but until there is a proposal
which adequately covers the technical and community aspects, you won't
have this director's vote.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 28 September 2004 20:27, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > Rightly or wrongly so, the tone of "competition" in Avalon was set well
> > before the emergence of Merlin. That was bad. So now the train was
> > moving, and noone pulled the breaks, not any individual, not the PMC, not
> > the PMC Chair, not the community, not the Board - noone. That was also
> > bad.
>
> I can't fix the past, but...
>
> Sam reaches for brakes.
>
> Sam grasps brakes.
>
> Sam pulls.
That (whatever the pull symbolizes) should have been done 18-24 months ago :o)
Hindsight is easy, and I am not sure whether your intention is to punish parts
(not all) of those who made it happen, plus some people who hasn't been
involved (for instance commercial users).
Did my suggestion reach you at all, or is it considered, what Ken refers to
as, a "hand wave" ?
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> Rightly or wrongly so, the tone of "competition" in Avalon was set well before
> the emergence of Merlin. That was bad. So now the train was moving, and noone
> pulled the breaks, not any individual, not the PMC, not the PMC Chair, not
> the community, not the Board - noone. That was also bad.
I can't fix the past, but...
Sam reaches for brakes.
Sam grasps brakes.
Sam pulls.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Style of community building
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 28 September 2004 17:09, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > On Tuesday 28 September 2004 09:30, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >>If you want to change my mind, that's how you start: tell me what is the
> >>benefit for the ASF in promoting this style of community building,
> >>despite its long-term history of social energy waste, frustration and
> >>contract instability.
> >
> > In all due respect, IMHO this thread was never meant to be about
> > community style building. Initially I brought up an issue of "knowing the
> > playing field" to a more explicit extent, and secondary about level of
> > transparency.
>
> OK, new thread.
>
> If you want to change my mind, you also need to start at the same place
> as Stefano indicated.
Sorry if I gave the impression, but I don't want to change the style of
community building. I DO want a peaceful and consensus-driven environment. I
am also tired of the "negative atmosphere" in Avalon and that's the reason
why I resigned from its PMC to concentrate on getting the development done.
When _I_ speak to Steve privately, he says he is also tired from it, as time
spent on fruitless debates could be used to move the product(s) forward, but
he has a view that he is not entirely to blame, and he means that the root
causes to the situation is much deeper than his desire to make Merlin a
success.
Rightly or wrongly so, the tone of "competition" in Avalon was set well before
the emergence of Merlin. That was bad. So now the train was moving, and noone
pulled the breaks, not any individual, not the PMC, not the PMC Chair, not
the community, not the Board - noone. That was also bad. Steve for sure added
to the heat, but wasn't alone, and I expressed some serious concerns about
how I perceived the situation as a lowly user a year and a bit ago;
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=106001074924233&w=2
(and the comments that followed are also interesting)
But now is now, and let's learn from history instead of criticizing it, and
stop looking for blame. We need to find the 'markers' of projects going down
the wrong track, and put in place 'safety valves' to defuse the situation
before it becomes critical.
I am not sure of how such 'marker detection' and 'safety valve' system should
be constructed, but I trust that through out the entire ASF community, there
must be plenty of ideas. I am anxious to discuss this, and put them in place
immediately for Avalon and/or Metro.
Cheers
Niclas
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