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Posted to dev@esme.apache.org by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> on 2010/01/08 09:47:41 UTC
Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Hi,
Related to ESME-47, I had a look at the current codebase, and many
source files include
Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing, LLC
In their license header.
According to http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#header-existingcopyright,
such copyright notices should go away for code that is developed at
the ASF.
The copyright notice could go to a NOTICE file if desired, to indicate
that parts of ESME are copyrighted by the above company, but having it
in source files is wrong as those files get edited by various people
over time, and committers retain the copyright on their contributions
[1], so the copyright on the individual source files is a mixture of
the different contributions.
I think those notices where all committed by dpp, David do you agree
to remove them?
And do you want the copyright to be mentioned in the NOTICE file?
I'm happy to supply a patch that removes the notices, for you to
commit, if that helps.
-Bertrand (incubation mentor hat on)
[1] See http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt - committers grant a
copyright license to the ASF but retain copyright on their
contributions
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source files?
Posted by Anne Kathrine Petterøe <yo...@gmail.com>.
Should we ping David?
I am not sure he reads all emails on the list these days.
/Anne
On 8. jan. 2010, at 10.23, Richard Hirsch wrote:
> OK. Sounds like a plan.
>
> Let's wait and see how David responds.
>
> D.
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Look at David's comment on the Jira Item:
>>> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47?focusedCommentId=12729407&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#action_12729407
>>
>> Let me reply to those here then, as disccusion is probably easier here
>> than in JIRA.
>> IANAL - happy to have this clarified by ASF legal team if needed):
>>
>>> All the code that I have contributed is copyright WorldWide Conferencing, LLC.
>>> My reading of the license grant that I signed does not change the copyright holder.
>>
>> Agreed, no problem with that.
>>
>>> So, why should the assertion of copyright by the copyright holder be removed?
>>
>> Because over time source code gets edited by various people who each
>> retain copyright on their contributions, so saying " copyright XYZ" is
>> only true for parts of the file after some time.
>>
>> See http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#header-existingcopyright,
>> the recommended way is to move the copyright notices to a NOTICE file
>> if the copyright holder wants that.
>>
>>> In terms of the LiftConsole.scala, etc. files, those files were generated by the Lift archetype
>>> The copyright on those files continues to remain with WorldWide Conferencing,
>>> LLC. The license on those files (and all Lift files) is Apache 2.0.
>>
>> See my comments of today in ESME-47, that notice seems to be gone if
>> using recent versions of the Lift archetypes (except for one
>> unimportant file).
>>
>>> If there is further question about keeping the copyright in the file, please have one of
>>> the ASF lawyers contact me to discuss the various IP related issues.
>>
>> In light of the additional explanations in this thread, I'd like to
>> have David's current opinion about removing those notices. If he wants
>> to discuss this with legal folks, no problem with that, but I thought
>> we might take a more direct route if there's agreement.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
OK. Sounds like a plan.
Let's wait and see how David responds.
D.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Look at David's comment on the Jira Item:
>> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47?focusedCommentId=12729407&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#action_12729407
>
> Let me reply to those here then, as disccusion is probably easier here
> than in JIRA.
> IANAL - happy to have this clarified by ASF legal team if needed):
>
>> All the code that I have contributed is copyright WorldWide Conferencing, LLC.
>> My reading of the license grant that I signed does not change the copyright holder.
>
> Agreed, no problem with that.
>
>> So, why should the assertion of copyright by the copyright holder be removed?
>
> Because over time source code gets edited by various people who each
> retain copyright on their contributions, so saying " copyright XYZ" is
> only true for parts of the file after some time.
>
> See http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#header-existingcopyright,
> the recommended way is to move the copyright notices to a NOTICE file
> if the copyright holder wants that.
>
>> In terms of the LiftConsole.scala, etc. files, those files were generated by the Lift archetype
>> The copyright on those files continues to remain with WorldWide Conferencing,
>> LLC. The license on those files (and all Lift files) is Apache 2.0.
>
> See my comments of today in ESME-47, that notice seems to be gone if
> using recent versions of the Lift archetypes (except for one
> unimportant file).
>
>> If there is further question about keeping the copyright in the file, please have one of
>> the ASF lawyers contact me to discuss the various IP related issues.
>
> In light of the additional explanations in this thread, I'd like to
> have David's current opinion about removing those notices. If he wants
> to discuss this with legal folks, no problem with that, but I thought
> we might take a more direct route if there's agreement.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Look at David's comment on the Jira Item:
> http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47?focusedCommentId=12729407&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#action_12729407
Let me reply to those here then, as disccusion is probably easier here
than in JIRA.
IANAL - happy to have this clarified by ASF legal team if needed):
> All the code that I have contributed is copyright WorldWide Conferencing, LLC.
> My reading of the license grant that I signed does not change the copyright holder.
Agreed, no problem with that.
> So, why should the assertion of copyright by the copyright holder be removed?
Because over time source code gets edited by various people who each
retain copyright on their contributions, so saying " copyright XYZ" is
only true for parts of the file after some time.
See http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#header-existingcopyright,
the recommended way is to move the copyright notices to a NOTICE file
if the copyright holder wants that.
> In terms of the LiftConsole.scala, etc. files, those files were generated by the Lift archetype
> The copyright on those files continues to remain with WorldWide Conferencing,
> LLC. The license on those files (and all Lift files) is Apache 2.0.
See my comments of today in ESME-47, that notice seems to be gone if
using recent versions of the Lift archetypes (except for one
unimportant file).
> If there is further question about keeping the copyright in the file, please have one of
> the ASF lawyers contact me to discuss the various IP related issues.
In light of the additional explanations in this thread, I'd like to
have David's current opinion about removing those notices. If he wants
to discuss this with legal folks, no problem with that, but I thought
we might take a more direct route if there's agreement.
-Bertrand
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
Look at David's comment on the Jira Item:
http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47?focusedCommentId=12729407&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#action_12729407
D.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Related to ESME-47, I had a look at the current codebase, and many
> source files include
>
> Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing, LLC
>
> In their license header.
>
> According to http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#header-existingcopyright,
> such copyright notices should go away for code that is developed at
> the ASF.
>
> The copyright notice could go to a NOTICE file if desired, to indicate
> that parts of ESME are copyrighted by the above company, but having it
> in source files is wrong as those files get edited by various people
> over time, and committers retain the copyright on their contributions
> [1], so the copyright on the individual source files is a mixture of
> the different contributions.
>
> I think those notices where all committed by dpp, David do you agree
> to remove them?
> And do you want the copyright to be mentioned in the NOTICE file?
>
> I'm happy to supply a patch that removes the notices, for you to
> commit, if that helps.
>
> -Bertrand (incubation mentor hat on)
>
> [1] See http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt - committers grant a
> copyright license to the ASF but retain copyright on their
> contributions
>
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <g....@sourcesense.com>.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, David Pollak
<fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Gianugo Rabellino <
> g.rabellino@sourcesense.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:22 PM, David Pollak
>> <fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The Apache 2.0 license, the license I granted in the code that I've
>> > contributed to the ESME project, states in section 4.3:
>> >
>> > You must retain, in the Source form of any Derivative Works that You
>> > distribute, all copyright, patent, trademark, and attribution notices
>> from
>> > the Source form of the Work, excluding those notices that do not pertain
>> to
>> > any part of the Derivative Works
>> >
>> > This was part of terms of my license grant in the code I developed for
>> > ESME. Can you point to a place in the CLA where I have abrogated this
>> part
>> > of the license in favor of ASF rules?
>>
>> I'm afraid you got it wrong. You haven't licensed code to Apache under
>> the AL - by signing a CLA, and committing code to Subversion, you have
>> donated your code to the ASF (or, more strictly speaking, licensed
>> your a copyright). It is the ASF, then, licensing it under the AL. If
>> it was not your intention to license the whole copyright, and if you
>> are not content with being recognized in the NOTICE file, that code
>> will have to go.
>>
>
> At no point did I assign any code to the ASF.
What is the bit of "You hereby grant to the Foundation and to
recipients of software distributed by the Foundation a perpetual,
worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable
copyright license" that you don't understand exactly?
> I granted a license to the
> ASF and section 4.3 of the license I granted controls the retention of
> copyright notices.
>
> If you remove the copyright notices from the code that I committed to the
> ESME project, I will consider that a violation of license I granted to the
> ASF.
>
> If a lawyer wants to discuss this further, I am available.
You are more than welcome to post a question to legal-discuss@a.o. But
if I were in your shoes, I would go and re-read the ICLA I assume you
signed.
--
Gianugo Rabellino
M: +44 779 5364 932 / +39 389 44 26 846
Sourcesense - making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Posted by David Pollak <fe...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Gianugo Rabellino <
g.rabellino@sourcesense.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:22 PM, David Pollak
> <fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Apache 2.0 license, the license I granted in the code that I've
> > contributed to the ESME project, states in section 4.3:
> >
> > You must retain, in the Source form of any Derivative Works that You
> > distribute, all copyright, patent, trademark, and attribution notices
> from
> > the Source form of the Work, excluding those notices that do not pertain
> to
> > any part of the Derivative Works
> >
> > This was part of terms of my license grant in the code I developed for
> > ESME. Can you point to a place in the CLA where I have abrogated this
> part
> > of the license in favor of ASF rules?
>
> I'm afraid you got it wrong. You haven't licensed code to Apache under
> the AL - by signing a CLA, and committing code to Subversion, you have
> donated your code to the ASF (or, more strictly speaking, licensed
> your a copyright). It is the ASF, then, licensing it under the AL. If
> it was not your intention to license the whole copyright, and if you
> are not content with being recognized in the NOTICE file, that code
> will have to go.
>
At no point did I assign any code to the ASF. I granted a license to the
ASF and section 4.3 of the license I granted controls the retention of
copyright notices.
If you remove the copyright notices from the code that I committed to the
ESME project, I will consider that a violation of license I granted to the
ASF.
If a lawyer wants to discuss this further, I am available.
>
> --
> Gianugo Rabellino
> M: +44 779 5364 932 / +39 389 44 26 846
> Sourcesense - making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
>
--
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Surf the harmonics
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <g....@sourcesense.com>.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:22 PM, David Pollak
<fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Apache 2.0 license, the license I granted in the code that I've
> contributed to the ESME project, states in section 4.3:
>
> You must retain, in the Source form of any Derivative Works that You
> distribute, all copyright, patent, trademark, and attribution notices from
> the Source form of the Work, excluding those notices that do not pertain to
> any part of the Derivative Works
>
> This was part of terms of my license grant in the code I developed for
> ESME. Can you point to a place in the CLA where I have abrogated this part
> of the license in favor of ASF rules?
I'm afraid you got it wrong. You haven't licensed code to Apache under
the AL - by signing a CLA, and committing code to Subversion, you have
donated your code to the ASF (or, more strictly speaking, licensed
your a copyright). It is the ASF, then, licensing it under the AL. If
it was not your intention to license the whole copyright, and if you
are not content with being recognized in the NOTICE file, that code
will have to go.
--
Gianugo Rabellino
M: +44 779 5364 932 / +39 389 44 26 846
Sourcesense - making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source files?
Posted by Anne Kathrine Petterøe <yo...@gmail.com>.
Thank you Bertrand.
I have subscribed to the legal list so that I can follow the discussion there.
/Anne
On 11. jan. 2010, at 09.32, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:22 PM, David Pollak
> <fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...I think those notices where all committed by dpp, David do you agree
>>> to remove them?
>>>
>>
>> No...
>
> I have now started the discussion on legal-discuss@apache.org (which
> is a public list, so anyone's free to join), Message-ID:
> <f7...@mail.gmail.com>,
> "Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
> how best to solve?".
>
> As Joe says in another thread, this might not be a legal issue at all,
> more an ASF policy issue, but I think it's good to clarify it there so
> that other projects faced with similar issues can find that info
> later.
>
> -Bertrand
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:22 PM, David Pollak
<fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
>> wrote:
>>
>> ...I think those notices where all committed by dpp, David do you agree
>> to remove them?
>>
>
> No...
I have now started the discussion on legal-discuss@apache.org (which
is a public list, so anyone's free to join), Message-ID:
<f7...@mail.gmail.com>,
"Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?".
As Joe says in another thread, this might not be a legal issue at all,
more an ASF policy issue, but I think it's good to clarify it there so
that other projects faced with similar issues can find that info
later.
-Bertrand
Re: Can we remove "Copyright WorldWide Conferencing , LLC" in source
files?
Posted by David Pollak <fe...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Related to ESME-47, I had a look at the current codebase, and many
> source files include
>
> Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing, LLC
>
> In their license header.
>
> According to
> http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#header-existingcopyright,
> such copyright notices should go away for code that is developed at
> the ASF.
>
The Apache 2.0 license, the license I granted in the code that I've
contributed to the ESME project, states in section 4.3:
You must retain, in the Source form of any Derivative Works that You
distribute, all copyright, patent, trademark, and attribution notices from
the Source form of the Work, excluding those notices that do not pertain to
any part of the Derivative Works
This was part of terms of my license grant in the code I developed for
ESME. Can you point to a place in the CLA where I have abrogated this part
of the license in favor of ASF rules?
> The copyright notice could go to a NOTICE file if desired, to indicate
> that parts of ESME are copyrighted by the above company, but having it
> in source files is wrong as those files get edited by various people
> over time, and committers retain the copyright on their contributions
> [1], so the copyright on the individual source files is a mixture of
> the different contributions.
>
It would make sense then that each person who edits a file contributes their
name to the copyright notice.
>
> I think those notices where all committed by dpp, David do you agree
> to remove them?
>
No.
> And do you want the copyright to be mentioned in the NOTICE file?
>
> I'm happy to supply a patch that removes the notices, for you to
> commit, if that helps.
>
> -Bertrand (incubation mentor hat on)
>
> [1] See http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt - committers grant a
> copyright license to the ASF but retain copyright on their
> contributions
>
--
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Surf the harmonics