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Posted to users@qpid.apache.org by bryand <br...@bldixon.net> on 2018/03/21 13:37:19 UTC
Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
We are using Broker-J 7.0.2. For a couple of Queues I've set setting Persist
Messages? to 'Never'. However when sending a message via a Qpid JMS 0.30.0
client the messages are being stored as Persistent. I've tried both methods
MessageProducer.send(Message message) and MessageProducer.send(Message
message, int deliveryMode, int priority, long timeToLive) (using
DeliveryMode.PERSISTENT for deliveryMode) and both result in persistent
messages in the Queue. Since I had the queue configured to Never persist
messages I wasn't expecting that behavior - maybe I'm misunderstanding this
setting?
When I use a DeliveryMode.NON_PERSISTENT for the deliveryMode then messages
are not persistent as expected.
Thanks
Bryan
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Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Robbie Gemmell <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 22 March 2018 at 16:57, Rob Godfrey <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22 March 2018 at 12:35, Bryan Dixon <br...@bldixon.net> wrote:
>
>> Rob, I wouldn't know if messages are being stored or not. I'm assuming
>> they
>> are not since a broker restart causes the messages to be 'lost' but that's
>> just my assumption.
>>
>
> OK - great, just checking
>
>
>>
>> At the end of day Keith is correct - the behavior is what I was wanting -
>> the messages don't appear to be persistent (to me persistent means stored).
>> It was just very confusing that the web admin UI was displaying Persistent:
>> true for messages and the JMS JMSDeliveryMode header also reported the
>> message as Persistent yet I defined on the web admin UI Persist Messages?:
>> NEVER. That's why I was concerned there was an issue.
>>
>> I'm also coming at this from a JMS perspective and not an AMQP one so that
>> could be causing my confusion - terminology differences.
>>
>>
> I think this is really just a broker presentation issue rather than a
> JMS/AMQP thing.
Sounds like it. Effectively the broker (and sending/receiving client)
is simply reporting whats true for the message as sent in JMS and AMQP
terms, it actually was a persistent/durable message that has been
sent, however its also true that queue is explicitly configured to
ignore that and not actually store it to disk.
I'm not sure theres really a great alternative to doing it that way.
I'd probably be surprised personally if it started saying
non-persistent just because the queue was configured in that manner.
> Both JMS and AMQP basically say that properties like
> persistence shouldn't be changed by the network. They are effectively
> statements of requirements made by the sender of the message "I want this
> message to be stored persistently". In the case of setting the queue to
> never persist a message we are basically saying that we are deliberately
> ignoring the sender's wishes. Note (for instance) if you set up a DLQ for
> a queue with persist NEVER, and that DLQ did not have the persistence
> override, then if the message moved to the DLQ then it would be persisted
> (because the DLQ would respect the wishes of the sender as expressed in the
> message header information).
>
> -- Rob
>
> Bryan
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Rob Godfrey <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 22 March 2018 at 12:35, Bryan Dixon <br...@bldixon.net> wrote:
> Rob, I wouldn't know if messages are being stored or not. I'm assuming
> they
> are not since a broker restart causes the messages to be 'lost' but that's
> just my assumption.
>
OK - great, just checking
>
> At the end of day Keith is correct - the behavior is what I was wanting -
> the messages don't appear to be persistent (to me persistent means stored).
> It was just very confusing that the web admin UI was displaying Persistent:
> true for messages and the JMS JMSDeliveryMode header also reported the
> message as Persistent yet I defined on the web admin UI Persist Messages?:
> NEVER. That's why I was concerned there was an issue.
>
> I'm also coming at this from a JMS perspective and not an AMQP one so that
> could be causing my confusion - terminology differences.
>
>
I think this is really just a broker presentation issue rather than a
JMS/AMQP thing. Both JMS and AMQP basically say that properties like
persistence shouldn't be changed by the network. They are effectively
statements of requirements made by the sender of the message "I want this
message to be stored persistently". In the case of setting the queue to
never persist a message we are basically saying that we are deliberately
ignoring the sender's wishes. Note (for instance) if you set up a DLQ for
a queue with persist NEVER, and that DLQ did not have the persistence
override, then if the message moved to the DLQ then it would be persisted
(because the DLQ would respect the wishes of the sender as expressed in the
message header information).
-- Rob
Bryan
>
>
>
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Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Bryan Dixon <br...@bldixon.net>.
Rob, I wouldn't know if messages are being stored or not. I'm assuming they
are not since a broker restart causes the messages to be 'lost' but that's
just my assumption.
At the end of day Keith is correct - the behavior is what I was wanting -
the messages don't appear to be persistent (to me persistent means stored).
It was just very confusing that the web admin UI was displaying Persistent:
true for messages and the JMS JMSDeliveryMode header also reported the
message as Persistent yet I defined on the web admin UI Persist Messages?:
NEVER. That's why I was concerned there was an issue.
I'm also coming at this from a JMS perspective and not an AMQP one so that
could be causing my confusion - terminology differences.
Bryan
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Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Rob Godfrey <ro...@gmail.com>.
Getting back to the original question - do we have any evidence that the
messages are actually being stored persistently, or is it just that fact
that the messages say "persistent=true" when viewed through the API?
As per my earlier replies, I believe that if the message is sent only to
queues which are non-durable, or that have their messageDurability set to
NEVER then the message will not actually be persistently stored (though
other than observing the size of store files on disk it may be difficult to
determine this).
-- Rob
On 21 March 2018 at 22:55, Keith W <ke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bryan
>
> You are modifying the correct attribute on the queue. At the API
> level it is called Queue#messageDurability. Within the Queue UI it is
> labelled "Persist Messages". There is no good reason for the
> inconsistency in terminology here. My apologies for any confusion.
>
> From your description on the behaviour, the feature is working
> correctly. The feature tells the queue to override the sender's
> message persistence wishes: ALWAYS will cause the queue to consider
> the message to be handled as if it were persistent, NEVER as if it
> were not persistent. DEFAULT respects the sender's original
> persistence wish. The feature influences the queue's storage
> behaviour. It does not cause the message's header to be rewritten.
> The message's header conveys the sender's delivery instructions and is
> mostly* considered immutable by the Broker. After all, the Broker
> might be just one of many intermediaries, and just because you wish
> one Broker to countermand the persistence setting, does not mean you
> want the same to apply to all intermediaries that follow. So the fact
> that delivered message header does not reflect the overrides
> persistence is expected. Management just offers a view onto the
> message header so again, it shows what the sender sent.
>
> * different versions of AMQP have different rules.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> The feature overrides the message's persistence setting to true if set
> ALWAYS, and false if set NEVER. If set DEFAULT, the sender's original
> persistence wishes are respected.
>
> On 21 March 2018 at 16:51, Bryan Dixon <br...@bldixon.net> wrote:
> > Alex your response about queue attribute 'messageDurability' isn't what
> I had
> > set to NEVER - it was the Persist Messages? attribute that I set to
> NEVER.
> > I want to make sure I'm on the same page as you guys and I'll provide
> some
> > screen shots to show what I did and saw.
> >
> > Firstly, my original post was referring to the attribute 'Message
> persistent
> > override' from this documentation:
> > https://qpid.apache.org/releases/qpid-broker-j-7.0.2/
> book/Java-Broker-Management-Managing-Queues.html.
> >
> > There is a 'Durable' attribute documented on that page also and my
> current
> > setting is enabled (checked on the admin UI) but that wasn't what I
> wanting
> > to change/test.
> >
> > Using the web admin UI I changed a queue's Persist Messages? value to
> NEVER
> > - see this screen shot
> > <http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/file/t396334/
> broker-j-queue-persist.png>
> >
> > I then ran this Java code using Qpid JMS 0.30.0 jars:
> > ConnectionFactory connectionFactory = new JmsConnectionFactory(
> brokerUrl);
> > Connection connection = connectionFactory.createConnection(user, pwd);
> > Session session = connection.createSession(false,
> Session.AUTO_ACKNOWLEDGE);
> > Destination destination =
> > session.createQueue("app_attach_ehcacheReplicateQueue");
> > MessageProducer messageProducer = session.createProducer(destination);
> > TextMessage message = session.createTextMessage("Hello world! " + new
> > Timestamp(System.currentTimeMillis()));
> > messageProducer.send(message);
> >
> > It published the message to the queue and when I view the message via the
> > web admin UI it has Persistent: true - see this screen shot
> > <http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/file/t396334/broker-j-msg-persist.png>
> .
> > I expected it to be Persistent: false based upon my change to NEVER and
> what
> > I understood from the documentation.
> >
> > Also, when I ran this Java code (using JMS 0.30.0 again), it returned a
> > value of 2 which indicates it is a persistent message:
> > MessageConsumer messageConsumer = session.createConsumer(destination);
> > TextMessage message = (TextMessage)messageConsumer.receive();
> > System.out.println(String.format("persist?: %s",
> > message.getJMSDeliveryMode()));
> >
> > However, after reading Alex's response of ' Thus, on broker restart the
> > queue entries would be removed. ' I thought I would see what would
> happen to
> > the message after the broker restart. When I restarted the broker the
> > message was gone.
> >
> > So now I'm actually a little more confused that I originally was but
> perhaps
> > I'm not fully understanding this. Being that the message was marked as
> > Persistent (even though I didn't want it to be) and the Queue is marked
> as
> > Durable (the checkbox is checked on the web admin UI), the message was
> lost
> > which doesn't seem right?
> >
> > The virtual host environment I have is a 3 VirtualHostNode setup for
> HA. I
> > didn't test this on a single VirualHost node.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bryan
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/Apache-Qpid-users-
> f2158936.html
> >
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@qpid.apache.org
> >
>
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Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Keith W <ke...@gmail.com>.
Hi Bryan
You are modifying the correct attribute on the queue. At the API
level it is called Queue#messageDurability. Within the Queue UI it is
labelled "Persist Messages". There is no good reason for the
inconsistency in terminology here. My apologies for any confusion.
From your description on the behaviour, the feature is working
correctly. The feature tells the queue to override the sender's
message persistence wishes: ALWAYS will cause the queue to consider
the message to be handled as if it were persistent, NEVER as if it
were not persistent. DEFAULT respects the sender's original
persistence wish. The feature influences the queue's storage
behaviour. It does not cause the message's header to be rewritten.
The message's header conveys the sender's delivery instructions and is
mostly* considered immutable by the Broker. After all, the Broker
might be just one of many intermediaries, and just because you wish
one Broker to countermand the persistence setting, does not mean you
want the same to apply to all intermediaries that follow. So the fact
that delivered message header does not reflect the overrides
persistence is expected. Management just offers a view onto the
message header so again, it shows what the sender sent.
* different versions of AMQP have different rules.
Hope this helps.
The feature overrides the message's persistence setting to true if set
ALWAYS, and false if set NEVER. If set DEFAULT, the sender's original
persistence wishes are respected.
On 21 March 2018 at 16:51, Bryan Dixon <br...@bldixon.net> wrote:
> Alex your response about queue attribute 'messageDurability' isn't what I had
> set to NEVER - it was the Persist Messages? attribute that I set to NEVER.
> I want to make sure I'm on the same page as you guys and I'll provide some
> screen shots to show what I did and saw.
>
> Firstly, my original post was referring to the attribute 'Message persistent
> override' from this documentation:
> https://qpid.apache.org/releases/qpid-broker-j-7.0.2/book/Java-Broker-Management-Managing-Queues.html.
>
> There is a 'Durable' attribute documented on that page also and my current
> setting is enabled (checked on the admin UI) but that wasn't what I wanting
> to change/test.
>
> Using the web admin UI I changed a queue's Persist Messages? value to NEVER
> - see this screen shot
> <http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/file/t396334/broker-j-queue-persist.png>
>
> I then ran this Java code using Qpid JMS 0.30.0 jars:
> ConnectionFactory connectionFactory = new JmsConnectionFactory(brokerUrl);
> Connection connection = connectionFactory.createConnection(user, pwd);
> Session session = connection.createSession(false, Session.AUTO_ACKNOWLEDGE);
> Destination destination =
> session.createQueue("app_attach_ehcacheReplicateQueue");
> MessageProducer messageProducer = session.createProducer(destination);
> TextMessage message = session.createTextMessage("Hello world! " + new
> Timestamp(System.currentTimeMillis()));
> messageProducer.send(message);
>
> It published the message to the queue and when I view the message via the
> web admin UI it has Persistent: true - see this screen shot
> <http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/file/t396334/broker-j-msg-persist.png> .
> I expected it to be Persistent: false based upon my change to NEVER and what
> I understood from the documentation.
>
> Also, when I ran this Java code (using JMS 0.30.0 again), it returned a
> value of 2 which indicates it is a persistent message:
> MessageConsumer messageConsumer = session.createConsumer(destination);
> TextMessage message = (TextMessage)messageConsumer.receive();
> System.out.println(String.format("persist?: %s",
> message.getJMSDeliveryMode()));
>
> However, after reading Alex's response of ' Thus, on broker restart the
> queue entries would be removed. ' I thought I would see what would happen to
> the message after the broker restart. When I restarted the broker the
> message was gone.
>
> So now I'm actually a little more confused that I originally was but perhaps
> I'm not fully understanding this. Being that the message was marked as
> Persistent (even though I didn't want it to be) and the Queue is marked as
> Durable (the checkbox is checked on the web admin UI), the message was lost
> which doesn't seem right?
>
> The virtual host environment I have is a 3 VirtualHostNode setup for HA. I
> didn't test this on a single VirualHost node.
>
> Thanks
> Bryan
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/Apache-Qpid-users-f2158936.html
>
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Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Bryan Dixon <br...@bldixon.net>.
Alex your response about queue attribute 'messageDurability' isn't what I had
set to NEVER - it was the Persist Messages? attribute that I set to NEVER.
I want to make sure I'm on the same page as you guys and I'll provide some
screen shots to show what I did and saw.
Firstly, my original post was referring to the attribute 'Message persistent
override' from this documentation:
https://qpid.apache.org/releases/qpid-broker-j-7.0.2/book/Java-Broker-Management-Managing-Queues.html.
There is a 'Durable' attribute documented on that page also and my current
setting is enabled (checked on the admin UI) but that wasn't what I wanting
to change/test.
Using the web admin UI I changed a queue's Persist Messages? value to NEVER
- see this screen shot
<http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/file/t396334/broker-j-queue-persist.png>
I then ran this Java code using Qpid JMS 0.30.0 jars:
ConnectionFactory connectionFactory = new JmsConnectionFactory(brokerUrl);
Connection connection = connectionFactory.createConnection(user, pwd);
Session session = connection.createSession(false, Session.AUTO_ACKNOWLEDGE);
Destination destination =
session.createQueue("app_attach_ehcacheReplicateQueue");
MessageProducer messageProducer = session.createProducer(destination);
TextMessage message = session.createTextMessage("Hello world! " + new
Timestamp(System.currentTimeMillis()));
messageProducer.send(message);
It published the message to the queue and when I view the message via the
web admin UI it has Persistent: true - see this screen shot
<http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/file/t396334/broker-j-msg-persist.png> .
I expected it to be Persistent: false based upon my change to NEVER and what
I understood from the documentation.
Also, when I ran this Java code (using JMS 0.30.0 again), it returned a
value of 2 which indicates it is a persistent message:
MessageConsumer messageConsumer = session.createConsumer(destination);
TextMessage message = (TextMessage)messageConsumer.receive();
System.out.println(String.format("persist?: %s",
message.getJMSDeliveryMode()));
However, after reading Alex's response of ' Thus, on broker restart the
queue entries would be removed. ' I thought I would see what would happen to
the message after the broker restart. When I restarted the broker the
message was gone.
So now I'm actually a little more confused that I originally was but perhaps
I'm not fully understanding this. Being that the message was marked as
Persistent (even though I didn't want it to be) and the Queue is marked as
Durable (the checkbox is checked on the web admin UI), the message was lost
which doesn't seem right?
The virtual host environment I have is a 3 VirtualHostNode setup for HA. I
didn't test this on a single VirualHost node.
Thanks
Bryan
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Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Rob Godfrey <ro...@gmail.com>.
Looking at this further, it seems to me that the optimisation is already
implemented... in the org.apache.qpid.server.txn.*Transaction classes,
calls to _transaction.enqueue(queue, message) are always guarded
by if(queue.getMessageDurability().persist(message.isPersistent())) ; thus
the store() method on the StoredBDBMessage or StoredJDBCMessage is never
called. The message should thus only be stored on disk if flowToDisk()
gets called.
Of course if the message is routed to multiple queues and one of the queues
does require the message to be persisted, then the message isn't
automatically removed from the store until it has been removed from *all*
queues (not just those that require persistence).
Bryan - can you provide a minimal virtual host config and client program
demonstrating this behaviour?
-- Rob
On 21 March 2018 at 16:00, Rob Godfrey <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alex,
>
> we should probably see if we can optimise this... If a message is only
> sent to queues which are non-durable or override message durability to
> never, then we could avoid storing the message (or at least immediately
> delete it from the store, and not wait for confirmation the message is in
> the store before acknowledging the incoming message)
>
> -- Rob
>
> On 21 March 2018 at 15:29, Oleksandr Rudyy <or...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> A queue attribute 'messageDurability' set to NEVER will stop queue
>> message entries from storing in the message store. Thus, on broker
>> restart the queue entries would be removed.
>> However, queue 'messageDurability' does not affect storing of message
>> content. If you send a persistent message, its content will be stored
>> regardless the value of queue 'messageDurability'.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Alex
>>
>> On 21 March 2018 at 13:37, bryand <br...@bldixon.net> wrote:
>> > We are using Broker-J 7.0.2. For a couple of Queues I've set setting
>> Persist
>> > Messages? to 'Never'. However when sending a message via a Qpid JMS
>> 0.30.0
>> > client the messages are being stored as Persistent. I've tried both
>> methods
>> > MessageProducer.send(Message message) and MessageProducer.send(Message
>> > message, int deliveryMode, int priority, long timeToLive) (using
>> > DeliveryMode.PERSISTENT for deliveryMode) and both result in persistent
>> > messages in the Queue. Since I had the queue configured to Never
>> persist
>> > messages I wasn't expecting that behavior - maybe I'm misunderstanding
>> this
>> > setting?
>> >
>> > When I use a DeliveryMode.NON_PERSISTENT for the deliveryMode then
>> messages
>> > are not persistent as expected.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Bryan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sent from: http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/Apache-Qpid-users-f2158936
>> .html
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@qpid.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@qpid.apache.org
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Rob Godfrey <ro...@gmail.com>.
Alex,
we should probably see if we can optimise this... If a message is only sent
to queues which are non-durable or override message durability to never,
then we could avoid storing the message (or at least immediately delete it
from the store, and not wait for confirmation the message is in the store
before acknowledging the incoming message)
-- Rob
On 21 March 2018 at 15:29, Oleksandr Rudyy <or...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> A queue attribute 'messageDurability' set to NEVER will stop queue
> message entries from storing in the message store. Thus, on broker
> restart the queue entries would be removed.
> However, queue 'messageDurability' does not affect storing of message
> content. If you send a persistent message, its content will be stored
> regardless the value of queue 'messageDurability'.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Alex
>
> On 21 March 2018 at 13:37, bryand <br...@bldixon.net> wrote:
> > We are using Broker-J 7.0.2. For a couple of Queues I've set setting
> Persist
> > Messages? to 'Never'. However when sending a message via a Qpid JMS
> 0.30.0
> > client the messages are being stored as Persistent. I've tried both
> methods
> > MessageProducer.send(Message message) and MessageProducer.send(Message
> > message, int deliveryMode, int priority, long timeToLive) (using
> > DeliveryMode.PERSISTENT for deliveryMode) and both result in persistent
> > messages in the Queue. Since I had the queue configured to Never persist
> > messages I wasn't expecting that behavior - maybe I'm misunderstanding
> this
> > setting?
> >
> > When I use a DeliveryMode.NON_PERSISTENT for the deliveryMode then
> messages
> > are not persistent as expected.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bryan
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/Apache-Qpid-users-
> f2158936.html
> >
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@qpid.apache.org
> >
>
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Re: Broker-J Queue Message persistent override
Posted by Oleksandr Rudyy <or...@gmail.com>.
Hi Brian,
A queue attribute 'messageDurability' set to NEVER will stop queue
message entries from storing in the message store. Thus, on broker
restart the queue entries would be removed.
However, queue 'messageDurability' does not affect storing of message
content. If you send a persistent message, its content will be stored
regardless the value of queue 'messageDurability'.
Kind Regards,
Alex
On 21 March 2018 at 13:37, bryand <br...@bldixon.net> wrote:
> We are using Broker-J 7.0.2. For a couple of Queues I've set setting Persist
> Messages? to 'Never'. However when sending a message via a Qpid JMS 0.30.0
> client the messages are being stored as Persistent. I've tried both methods
> MessageProducer.send(Message message) and MessageProducer.send(Message
> message, int deliveryMode, int priority, long timeToLive) (using
> DeliveryMode.PERSISTENT for deliveryMode) and both result in persistent
> messages in the Queue. Since I had the queue configured to Never persist
> messages I wasn't expecting that behavior - maybe I'm misunderstanding this
> setting?
>
> When I use a DeliveryMode.NON_PERSISTENT for the deliveryMode then messages
> are not persistent as expected.
>
> Thanks
> Bryan
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://qpid.2158936.n2.nabble.com/Apache-Qpid-users-f2158936.html
>
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