Establishing an ASF project for training

[Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials for
ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.

I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
keep those up-to-date.

We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is worth
that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.

So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are currently
talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us in
open sourcing their material.

I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it should
be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears as a
“project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a familiar
structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
(e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).

This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
code and potentially other media forms.

One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as possible,
but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
using this material would need to customize it.

This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
In scope:
* Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
* Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
* Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
* Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and combined)

Out of scope (for now at least)
* Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
Program”[1] with certified training partners
* Project documentation

I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here or
somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I think
this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
worthwhile.

I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I would
be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
and shape.

Anticipated FAQs:

Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
central project doing this than having this as part of every project
itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
all want to learn about the ecosystem).

Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d actually
like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now (which
could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.

Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
project?
A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment but
from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably reuse
some content and tools.

Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
should do PechaKucha at all times.
A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable format
will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
other project.

Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@) to
which I do not yet have an answer.

Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
of this mail.

Cheers,
Lars

[0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
[1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
[2] <https://community.apache.org/>

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>]

Hi,

A possibly related related thread [1]. On the format/technology front I know Christofer Dutz uses mavin / asciidoctor (?) to build and make multiple versions of his slides, so he might have something to contribute. I would also be interested.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/20341b987366adb0c2a89347c18d809d9216d99a6351eefc419d73b4@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E


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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Gris Cuevas <gr...@apache.org>]

Hi Everyone, 

This is a fantastic idea and we'd love to contribute! Personally, I think it makes more sense to have this to be a central offering of the ASF instead of a project. The reason is that having a central service would help permeate the values and belief of the ASF to the projects. If we have this as an independent project we might lose the connection to the foundation as a parent. That been said, I'd love to help shape a proposal to the board if this is still under consideration. 

I'm interested in developing a training about the Apache Way for two audiences: 
a) Teams wanting to implement the Apache Way to open source their technology (new projects) 
b) New contributors/committers to an Apache project 

My employer (Google) is betting heavily in helping our technical teams contributing to Apache projects to become good open source citizens, and as part of this effort we're organizing an internal Summit with the following sessions: 

a. The economics of Open Source (why we bet in open source technology)
b. Introduction to the Apache Way 
    - Focusing on best practices & citizenship
c. Understanding individual participation and representing a company
d. Community Management 
e. Project Management in Open Source Projects 

Personally, I'm a true believer that creating resources for new community members is key to grow and sustain any online community, so I'd love to help make this a resource we share with all projects, this is an opportunity to build a solid common ground that unifies the way companies and individuals get to become part of the ASF. 

How could I help?


On 2018/12/18 09:06:44, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote: 
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:24 PM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >...I believe we can probably hash out most details on
> > the list as well?..
> 
> Yes, that's how we work ;-)
> 
> -Bertrand
> 
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> 

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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:24 PM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>...I believe we can probably hash out most details on
> the list as well?..

Yes, that's how we work ;-)

-Bertrand

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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

["Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>]

On 12/17/2018 2:14 PM, Lars Francke wrote:
> thanks for the heads up and for the support. I'd love for those
> companies to contribute but I think there's no need to wait for them, no?
>
> I understand that a meeting can be useful but if you have one it'd be
> great if it could be an online meetup/call so I (from Germany) can
> also participate. That said: I believe we can probably hash out most
> details on the list as well?

Hi Lars, I had hoped they were interested more than just for financial
and proprietary benefit.  However, the fact that only 1 responded tells
me they didn't like the idea.

If you wanted to lead a PMC for this project, I'm happy to re-engage
with them and try and get them involved in your efforts.


Regards,
KAM


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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>]

Kevin,

thanks for the heads up and for the support. I'd love for those companies
to contribute but I think there's no need to wait for them, no?

I understand that a meeting can be useful but if you have one it'd be great
if it could be an online meetup/call so I (from Germany) can also
participate. That said: I believe we can probably hash out most details on
the list as well?

Cheers,
Lars


On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 7:41 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi Lars,
>
> Just a note that this might tie in nicely to the proposal I sent to a
> number of online companies: Coursera, Pluralsight, Udemy, & Udacity re:
> setting up a PMC for Training.  I got only one response which so far
> hasn't materialized with much.  However, I think the idea has a lot of
> merit and thought I would share what I wrote back in October.
>
> Regards,
> KAM
>
> Invitation to a Discussion Panel re: the Apache Way and a PMC Proposal
> for Online Training
>
> Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> Tue, Oct 16, 12:46 PM
>
> Hello All,
>
> Over the past few years, the ASF has been approached a number of times
> regarding online training/certification and working with several players
> in the industry.  To date, we haven't had much luck finding a way that
> works but just recently, we had another firm reach out to us.
>
> With this additional firm and combining it with recent ASF discussions
> about "central service" projects at the ASF to embrace things that are
> non-code related like graphics and documentation, we might have a way
> forward.
>
> In broad strokes, the idea of creating training material presents itself
> as an interesting idea for a project in the Apache Incubator.  The
> Incubator is where we grow and cultivate interesting ideas towards being
> top level projects.
>
> The plan at this stage is to get interested parties to discuss the
> idea.  What is needed is for a team of people to create a proposal for a
> project management committee to produce this training material just like
> how we produce OSS software in a vendor neutral, collaborative manner
> using the Apache Way.
>
> It's important to note that the ASF wouldn't drive this ship.  We'd help
> steer it with tugboats but we have a lot of experience with successful
> projects involving lots of different vendors that create value through
> open source.
>
> If the companies you represent might be able to help in doing that, I'd
> like to see if it's feasible and guide you.  The first step is to setup
> a meeting with interested parties to discuss things further.  Please let
> me know if you would be interested and if you recommend anyone else is
> invited for the meeting.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM
> On 12/17/2018 8:22 AM, Lars Francke wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
> > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials
> for
> > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
> >
> > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
> > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
> > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
> > keep those up-to-date.
> >
> > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
> > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is
> worth
> > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
> > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
> > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
> >
> > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
> > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
> > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are
> currently
> > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us
> in
> > open sourcing their material.
> >
> > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it
> should
> > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
> > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears
> as a
> > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a
> familiar
> > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
> > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
> >
> > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
> > code and potentially other media forms.
> >
> > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as
> possible,
> > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
> > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
> > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
> > using this material would need to customize it.
> >
> > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
> > In scope:
> > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
> > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
> > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
> > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
> > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and
> combined)
> >
> > Out of scope (for now at least)
> > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
> > Program”[1] with certified training partners
> > * Project documentation
> >
> > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here
> or
> > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I
> think
> > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
> > worthwhile.
> >
> > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I
> would
> > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
> > and shape.
> >
> > Anticipated FAQs:
> >
> > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
> > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
> > material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
> > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
> > central project doing this than having this as part of every project
> > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
> > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
> > all want to learn about the ecosystem).
> >
> > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
> > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d
> actually
> > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
> > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now
> (which
> > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
> >
> > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
> > project?
> > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment
> but
> > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
> > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably
> reuse
> > some content and tools.
> >
> > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
> > should do PechaKucha at all times.
> > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable
> format
> > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
> > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
> > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
> > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
> > other project.
> >
> > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
> > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
> > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@)
> to
> > which I do not yet have an answer.
> >
> > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
> > of this mail.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Lars
> >
> > [0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
> > [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
> > [2] <https://community.apache.org/>
> >
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> VP Fundraising, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

["Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>]

Hi Lars,

Just a note that this might tie in nicely to the proposal I sent to a
number of online companies: Coursera, Pluralsight, Udemy, & Udacity re:
setting up a PMC for Training.  I got only one response which so far
hasn't materialized with much.  However, I think the idea has a lot of
merit and thought I would share what I wrote back in October.

Regards,
KAM

Invitation to a Discussion Panel re: the Apache Way and a PMC Proposal
for Online Training

Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
Tue, Oct 16, 12:46 PM

Hello All,

Over the past few years, the ASF has been approached a number of times
regarding online training/certification and working with several players
in the industry.  To date, we haven't had much luck finding a way that
works but just recently, we had another firm reach out to us.

With this additional firm and combining it with recent ASF discussions
about "central service" projects at the ASF to embrace things that are
non-code related like graphics and documentation, we might have a way
forward.

In broad strokes, the idea of creating training material presents itself
as an interesting idea for a project in the Apache Incubator.  The
Incubator is where we grow and cultivate interesting ideas towards being
top level projects.

The plan at this stage is to get interested parties to discuss the
idea.  What is needed is for a team of people to create a proposal for a
project management committee to produce this training material just like
how we produce OSS software in a vendor neutral, collaborative manner
using the Apache Way.

It's important to note that the ASF wouldn't drive this ship.  We'd help
steer it with tugboats but we have a lot of experience with successful
projects involving lots of different vendors that create value through
open source.

If the companies you represent might be able to help in doing that, I'd
like to see if it's feasible and guide you.  The first step is to setup
a meeting with interested parties to discuss things further.  Please let
me know if you would be interested and if you recommend anyone else is
invited for the meeting.

Thanks for your time.

Regards,

KAM
On 12/17/2018 8:22 AM, Lars Francke wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
> Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials for
> ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
>
> I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
> consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
> developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
> keep those up-to-date.
>
> We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
> challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is worth
> that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
> instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
> deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
>
> So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
> resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
> that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are currently
> talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us in
> open sourcing their material.
>
> I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it should
> be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
> think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears as a
> “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a familiar
> structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
> (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
>
> This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
> code and potentially other media forms.
>
> One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as possible,
> but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
> matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
> communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
> using this material would need to customize it.
>
> This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
> In scope:
> * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
> * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
> * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
> * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
> repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and combined)
>
> Out of scope (for now at least)
> * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
> Program”[1] with certified training partners
> * Project documentation
>
> I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here or
> somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I think
> this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
> worthwhile.
>
> I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I would
> be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
> and shape.
>
> Anticipated FAQs:
>
> Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
> A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
> material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
> documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
> central project doing this than having this as part of every project
> itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
> trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
> all want to learn about the ecosystem).
>
> Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
> A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d actually
> like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
> code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now (which
> could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
>
> Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
> project?
> A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment but
> from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
> projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably reuse
> some content and tools.
>
> Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
> should do PechaKucha at all times.
> A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable format
> will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
> discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
> Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
> disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
> other project.
>
> Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
> design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
> A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@) to
> which I do not yet have an answer.
>
> Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
> of this mail.
>
> Cheers,
> Lars
>
> [0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
> [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
> [2] <https://community.apache.org/>
>

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
VP Fundraising, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>]

Gris,

sorry for the late reply. I'm only now catching up on emails after the
holidays. Thanks for your support!

The next steps are for me (in the next two weeks) to write an official
proposal. I'll then start a [DISCUSS] Thread and will gather interested
parties. We can take it from there. I believe that for the moment there's
nothing to do.

Regarding the technical discussion: I've intentionally avoided that for now
as I wanted to focus on the topic itself before hopefully diving into
details later. No matter which technology we chose someone will be unhappy
with it but I believe this to be no different than any other "technical"
project.

Cheers,
Lars

>
> > I really like the idea!
> > We, from time to time, also do trainings and workshops with Apache
> projects and it would really help to have a better basis.
> > And I agree for you that you don’t get payed for *having* slides but for
> the show as well as for the insights you get from a good instructor or a
> person with background knowledge, so I also see no big concerns in sharing.
> >
> > One thing that came to my mind was to use some kind of "code based"
> generation for the slides, notebooks, brochures like Latex, Markdown,
> Asciidoc or else...
>
> I would strongly advise against using code base generators as the only way
> to consume these materials. The reason why is that this is a entry barrier
> for folks wanting to contribute to community and project management and who
> are not technical. This will also put a huge adoption barrier since we'd
> need to assume people using this materials are versed in this technology.
> That been said. We could use the code based generator for folks wanting to
> do more with what's produced but also publishing official brochures and
> content that people can just "grab and go".
>
> This is in alignment with having a more active attitude towards
> recognizing non-code contributions.
>
> > I would not like to force users to use proprietary tools (PPT) to use
> the material.
> > And furthermore, this would allow us to have some kind of style files
> which could be personalized for corps and which they could keep for each
> release.
> > Another aspect is that it makes the whole versioning way easier as it is
> code and one can see all changes and stuff which is impossible for "binary"
> formats.
> > I also think we have enough people here that would be able to easily do
> an automated resources documentation, so that we could always offer
> "compiled" material in pdf in default style or the possibility to do a
> custom build with custom styles.
> >
> > And I think that the incubator would be a good place to start to see if
> here, as in all ASF projects, a community can be established and continuous
> effort is spend on the project. This would reduce the risk of a "zombie"
> project which is probably only really powered by one organization and lives
> and dies on their will.
> >
> > Julian
> >
> > Am 17.12.18, 14:37 schrieb "Rich Bowen" <rb...@rcbowen.com>:
> >
> >     It's worth mentioning that there's a conversation going right now
> over on
> >     the members@ list about creating a "central services" kind of
> entity. That
> >     discussion is primarily focused on design/graphic kind of stuff, but
> >     training/documentation/presentations are similar in concept, if not
> in
> >     content, and I'm definitely in favor of such an entity existing.
> >
> >     Your anticipated question "Isn't the ASF all about code, now you
> want to do
> >     PPT!" is very insightful. The ASF exists to provide services to
> projects,
> >     and this is an unfilled need that many/most of our projects have.
> There is
> >     precedent - we have an infrastructure organization, a conferences
> entity, a
> >     marketing group, legal, brand, and so on, that provide non-code
> services to
> >     projects. Recognizing contributors for non-code contributions is
> *critical*
> >     for the survival of our projects, and of the Foundation as a whole,
> and we
> >     tend to be very poor at it.
> >
> >     So, suffice it to say, a huge +1 to this concept, although I'm not
> sure
> >     where it should live - whether under ComDev (as you suggest) or as a
> >     top-level entity. I think the latter makes a little more sense.
> While this
> >     is indeed a function of community development/growth/education, it's
> also
> >     sufficiently different that it may need to be independent.
> >
> >     What are next steps? I don't *think* this is something that should go
> >     through the Incubator. It's not a Thing Like That. Perhaps a
> proposal to
> >     the Board to create a top-level thing? I'll put a pointer to this
> thread
> >     into that other thread (referenced above), and apologies to those of
> you
> >     who are not ASF Members and cannot see that thread.
> >
> >
> >     On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:23 AM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >     > Hi,
> >     >
> >     > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or
> Central
> >     > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related
> materials for
> >     > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
> >     >
> >     > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money
> doing
> >     > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and
> we have
> >     > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard
> work to
> >     > keep those up-to-date.
> >     >
> >     > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the
> same
> >     > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck
> is worth
> >     > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe
> the
> >     > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that
> person is
> >     > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
> >     >
> >     > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and
> other
> >     > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in
> the hopes
> >     > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are
> currently
> >     > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in
> joining us in
> >     > open sourcing their material.
> >     >
> >     > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if
> it should
> >     > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here
> because I
> >     > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it
> appears as a
> >     > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a
> familiar
> >     > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects
> though
> >     > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
> >     >
> >     > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also
> accompanying
> >     > code and potentially other media forms.
> >     >
> >     > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as
> possible,
> >     > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on
> the
> >     > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
> >     > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess
> anyone
> >     > using this material would need to customize it.
> >     >
> >     > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
> >     > In scope:
> >     > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
> >     > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
> >     > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those
> labs
> >     > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a
> slide
> >     > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and
> combined)
> >     >
> >     > Out of scope (for now at least)
> >     > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
> >     > Program”[1] with certified training partners
> >     > * Project documentation
> >     >
> >     > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or
> here or
> >     > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a
> “project” I think
> >     > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you
> think it
> >     > worthwhile.
> >     >
> >     > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on
> this. I would
> >     > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a
> result
> >     > and shape.
> >     >
> >     > Anticipated FAQs:
> >     >
> >     > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
> >     > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but
> developing
> >     > material for professional “training” is quite different from
> writing
> >     > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a
> single
> >     > central project doing this than having this as part of every
> project
> >     > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
> >     > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop”
> training. They
> >     > all want to learn about the ecosystem).
> >     >
> >     > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
> >     > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d
> actually
> >     > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not
> about the
> >     > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations
> now (which
> >     > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
> >     >
> >     > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of
> that
> >     > project?
> >     > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or
> alignment but
> >     > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two
> distinct
> >     > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and
> probably reuse
> >     > some content and tools.
> >     >
> >     > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/...
> everyone
> >     > should do PechaKucha at all times.
> >     > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a
> suitable format
> >     > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
> >     > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache
> Jira and
> >     > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
> >     > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different
> than any
> >     > other project.
> >     >
> >     > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my
> corporate
> >     > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
> >     > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves
> legal@) to
> >     > which I do not yet have an answer.
> >     >
> >     > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the
> review
> >     > of this mail.
> >     >
> >     > Cheers,
> >     > Lars
> >     >
> >     > [0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
> >     > [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
> >     > [2] <https://community.apache.org/>
> >     >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Gris Cuevas <gr...@apache.org>]

On 2018/12/17 14:26:47, Julian Feinauer <j....@pragmaticminds.de> wrote: 
> Hey Lars,
> hi Rich,
> 
> I really like the idea!
> We, from time to time, also do trainings and workshops with Apache projects and it would really help to have a better basis.
> And I agree for you that you don’t get payed for *having* slides but for the show as well as for the insights you get from a good instructor or a person with background knowledge, so I also see no big concerns in sharing.
> 
> One thing that came to my mind was to use some kind of "code based" generation for the slides, notebooks, brochures like Latex, Markdown, Asciidoc or else...

I would strongly advise against using code base generators as the only way to consume these materials. The reason why is that this is a entry barrier for folks wanting to contribute to community and project management and who are not technical. This will also put a huge adoption barrier since we'd need to assume people using this materials are versed in this technology. That been said. We could use the code based generator for folks wanting to do more with what's produced but also publishing official brochures and content that people can just "grab and go". 

This is in alignment with having a more active attitude towards recognizing non-code contributions. 

> I would not like to force users to use proprietary tools (PPT) to use the material.
> And furthermore, this would allow us to have some kind of style files which could be personalized for corps and which they could keep for each release.
> Another aspect is that it makes the whole versioning way easier as it is code and one can see all changes and stuff which is impossible for "binary" formats.
> I also think we have enough people here that would be able to easily do an automated resources documentation, so that we could always offer "compiled" material in pdf in default style or the possibility to do a custom build with custom styles.
> 
> And I think that the incubator would be a good place to start to see if here, as in all ASF projects, a community can be established and continuous effort is spend on the project. This would reduce the risk of a "zombie" project which is probably only really powered by one organization and lives and dies on their will.
> 
> Julian
> 
> Am 17.12.18, 14:37 schrieb "Rich Bowen" <rb...@rcbowen.com>:
> 
>     It's worth mentioning that there's a conversation going right now over on
>     the members@ list about creating a "central services" kind of entity. That
>     discussion is primarily focused on design/graphic kind of stuff, but
>     training/documentation/presentations are similar in concept, if not in
>     content, and I'm definitely in favor of such an entity existing.
>     
>     Your anticipated question "Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do
>     PPT!" is very insightful. The ASF exists to provide services to projects,
>     and this is an unfilled need that many/most of our projects have. There is
>     precedent - we have an infrastructure organization, a conferences entity, a
>     marketing group, legal, brand, and so on, that provide non-code services to
>     projects. Recognizing contributors for non-code contributions is *critical*
>     for the survival of our projects, and of the Foundation as a whole, and we
>     tend to be very poor at it.
>     
>     So, suffice it to say, a huge +1 to this concept, although I'm not sure
>     where it should live - whether under ComDev (as you suggest) or as a
>     top-level entity. I think the latter makes a little more sense. While this
>     is indeed a function of community development/growth/education, it's also
>     sufficiently different that it may need to be independent.
>     
>     What are next steps? I don't *think* this is something that should go
>     through the Incubator. It's not a Thing Like That. Perhaps a proposal to
>     the Board to create a top-level thing? I'll put a pointer to this thread
>     into that other thread (referenced above), and apologies to those of you
>     who are not ASF Members and cannot see that thread.
>     
>     
>     On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:23 AM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>     
>     > Hi,
>     >
>     > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
>     > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials for
>     > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
>     >
>     > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
>     > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
>     > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
>     > keep those up-to-date.
>     >
>     > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
>     > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is worth
>     > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
>     > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
>     > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
>     >
>     > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
>     > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
>     > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are currently
>     > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us in
>     > open sourcing their material.
>     >
>     > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it should
>     > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
>     > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears as a
>     > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a familiar
>     > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
>     > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
>     >
>     > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
>     > code and potentially other media forms.
>     >
>     > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as possible,
>     > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
>     > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
>     > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
>     > using this material would need to customize it.
>     >
>     > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
>     > In scope:
>     > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
>     > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
>     > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
>     > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
>     > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and combined)
>     >
>     > Out of scope (for now at least)
>     > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
>     > Program”[1] with certified training partners
>     > * Project documentation
>     >
>     > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here or
>     > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I think
>     > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
>     > worthwhile.
>     >
>     > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I would
>     > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
>     > and shape.
>     >
>     > Anticipated FAQs:
>     >
>     > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
>     > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
>     > material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
>     > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
>     > central project doing this than having this as part of every project
>     > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
>     > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
>     > all want to learn about the ecosystem).
>     >
>     > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
>     > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d actually
>     > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
>     > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now (which
>     > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
>     >
>     > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
>     > project?
>     > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment but
>     > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
>     > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably reuse
>     > some content and tools.
>     >
>     > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
>     > should do PechaKucha at all times.
>     > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable format
>     > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
>     > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
>     > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
>     > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
>     > other project.
>     >
>     > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
>     > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
>     > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@) to
>     > which I do not yet have an answer.
>     >
>     > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
>     > of this mail.
>     >
>     > Cheers,
>     > Lars
>     >
>     > [0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
>     > [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
>     > [2] <https://community.apache.org/>
>     >
>     
> 
> 

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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>]

Julian,

One thing that came to my mind was to use some kind of "code based"
> generation for the slides, notebooks, brochures like Latex, Markdown,
> Asciidoc or else...
> I would not like to force users to use proprietary tools (PPT) to use the
> material.
> And furthermore, this would allow us to have some kind of style files
> which could be personalized for corps and which they could keep for each
> release.
> Another aspect is that it makes the whole versioning way easier as it is
> code and one can see all changes and stuff which is impossible for "binary"
> formats.
> I also think we have enough people here that would be able to easily do an
> automated resources documentation, so that we could always offer "compiled"
> material in pdf in default style or the possibility to do a custom build
> with custom styles.
>

That would be nice. And I've tried a whole bunch of systems and none of
them worked really well. Either you can't position elements nicely/easily
or you can't have a consistent CI etc. I think this is definitely a
discussion to be had when/if this "project" is established.


> And I think that the incubator would be a good place to start to see if
> here, as in all ASF projects, a community can be established and continuous
> effort is spend on the project. This would reduce the risk of a "zombie"
> project which is probably only really powered by one organization and lives
> and dies on their will.
>
> Julian
>
> Am 17.12.18, 14:37 schrieb "Rich Bowen" <rb...@rcbowen.com>:
>
>     It's worth mentioning that there's a conversation going right now over
> on
>     the members@ list about creating a "central services" kind of entity.
> That
>     discussion is primarily focused on design/graphic kind of stuff, but
>     training/documentation/presentations are similar in concept, if not in
>     content, and I'm definitely in favor of such an entity existing.
>
>     Your anticipated question "Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want
> to do
>     PPT!" is very insightful. The ASF exists to provide services to
> projects,
>     and this is an unfilled need that many/most of our projects have.
> There is
>     precedent - we have an infrastructure organization, a conferences
> entity, a
>     marketing group, legal, brand, and so on, that provide non-code
> services to
>     projects. Recognizing contributors for non-code contributions is
> *critical*
>     for the survival of our projects, and of the Foundation as a whole,
> and we
>     tend to be very poor at it.
>
>     So, suffice it to say, a huge +1 to this concept, although I'm not sure
>     where it should live - whether under ComDev (as you suggest) or as a
>     top-level entity. I think the latter makes a little more sense. While
> this
>     is indeed a function of community development/growth/education, it's
> also
>     sufficiently different that it may need to be independent.
>
>     What are next steps? I don't *think* this is something that should go
>     through the Incubator. It's not a Thing Like That. Perhaps a proposal
> to
>     the Board to create a top-level thing? I'll put a pointer to this
> thread
>     into that other thread (referenced above), and apologies to those of
> you
>     who are not ASF Members and cannot see that thread.
>
>
>     On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:23 AM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>     > Hi,
>     >
>     > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or
> Central
>     > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related
> materials for
>     > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
>     >
>     > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money
> doing
>     > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we
> have
>     > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work
> to
>     > keep those up-to-date.
>     >
>     > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
>     > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is
> worth
>     > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
>     > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person
> is
>     > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
>     >
>     > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
>     > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the
> hopes
>     > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are
> currently
>     > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining
> us in
>     > open sourcing their material.
>     >
>     > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it
> should
>     > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because
> I
>     > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it
> appears as a
>     > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a
> familiar
>     > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects
> though
>     > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
>     >
>     > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also
> accompanying
>     > code and potentially other media forms.
>     >
>     > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as
> possible,
>     > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
>     > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
>     > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess
> anyone
>     > using this material would need to customize it.
>     >
>     > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
>     > In scope:
>     > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
>     > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
>     > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those
> labs
>     > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a
> slide
>     > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and
> combined)
>     >
>     > Out of scope (for now at least)
>     > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
>     > Program”[1] with certified training partners
>     > * Project documentation
>     >
>     > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or
> here or
>     > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project”
> I think
>     > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think
> it
>     > worthwhile.
>     >
>     > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this.
> I would
>     > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a
> result
>     > and shape.
>     >
>     > Anticipated FAQs:
>     >
>     > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
>     > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but
> developing
>     > material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
>     > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
>     > central project doing this than having this as part of every project
>     > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
>     > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training.
> They
>     > all want to learn about the ecosystem).
>     >
>     > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
>     > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d
> actually
>     > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about
> the
>     > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now
> (which
>     > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
>     >
>     > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
>     > project?
>     > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or
> alignment but
>     > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two
> distinct
>     > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably
> reuse
>     > some content and tools.
>     >
>     > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/...
> everyone
>     > should do PechaKucha at all times.
>     > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable
> format
>     > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
>     > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira
> and
>     > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
>     > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different
> than any
>     > other project.
>     >
>     > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
>     > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
>     > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@)
> to
>     > which I do not yet have an answer.
>     >
>     > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the
> review
>     > of this mail.
>     >
>     > Cheers,
>     > Lars
>     >
>     > [0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
>     > [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
>     > [2] <https://community.apache.org/>
>     >
>
>
>

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Julian Feinauer <j....@pragmaticminds.de>]

Hey Lars,
hi Rich,

I really like the idea!
We, from time to time, also do trainings and workshops with Apache projects and it would really help to have a better basis.
And I agree for you that you don’t get payed for *having* slides but for the show as well as for the insights you get from a good instructor or a person with background knowledge, so I also see no big concerns in sharing.

One thing that came to my mind was to use some kind of "code based" generation for the slides, notebooks, brochures like Latex, Markdown, Asciidoc or else...
I would not like to force users to use proprietary tools (PPT) to use the material.
And furthermore, this would allow us to have some kind of style files which could be personalized for corps and which they could keep for each release.
Another aspect is that it makes the whole versioning way easier as it is code and one can see all changes and stuff which is impossible for "binary" formats.
I also think we have enough people here that would be able to easily do an automated resources documentation, so that we could always offer "compiled" material in pdf in default style or the possibility to do a custom build with custom styles.

And I think that the incubator would be a good place to start to see if here, as in all ASF projects, a community can be established and continuous effort is spend on the project. This would reduce the risk of a "zombie" project which is probably only really powered by one organization and lives and dies on their will.

Julian

Am 17.12.18, 14:37 schrieb "Rich Bowen" <rb...@rcbowen.com>:

    It's worth mentioning that there's a conversation going right now over on
    the members@ list about creating a "central services" kind of entity. That
    discussion is primarily focused on design/graphic kind of stuff, but
    training/documentation/presentations are similar in concept, if not in
    content, and I'm definitely in favor of such an entity existing.
    
    Your anticipated question "Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do
    PPT!" is very insightful. The ASF exists to provide services to projects,
    and this is an unfilled need that many/most of our projects have. There is
    precedent - we have an infrastructure organization, a conferences entity, a
    marketing group, legal, brand, and so on, that provide non-code services to
    projects. Recognizing contributors for non-code contributions is *critical*
    for the survival of our projects, and of the Foundation as a whole, and we
    tend to be very poor at it.
    
    So, suffice it to say, a huge +1 to this concept, although I'm not sure
    where it should live - whether under ComDev (as you suggest) or as a
    top-level entity. I think the latter makes a little more sense. While this
    is indeed a function of community development/growth/education, it's also
    sufficiently different that it may need to be independent.
    
    What are next steps? I don't *think* this is something that should go
    through the Incubator. It's not a Thing Like That. Perhaps a proposal to
    the Board to create a top-level thing? I'll put a pointer to this thread
    into that other thread (referenced above), and apologies to those of you
    who are not ASF Members and cannot see that thread.
    
    
    On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:23 AM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
    
    > Hi,
    >
    > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
    > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials for
    > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
    >
    > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
    > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
    > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
    > keep those up-to-date.
    >
    > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
    > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is worth
    > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
    > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
    > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
    >
    > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
    > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
    > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are currently
    > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us in
    > open sourcing their material.
    >
    > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it should
    > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
    > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears as a
    > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a familiar
    > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
    > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
    >
    > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
    > code and potentially other media forms.
    >
    > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as possible,
    > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
    > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
    > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
    > using this material would need to customize it.
    >
    > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
    > In scope:
    > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
    > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
    > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
    > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
    > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and combined)
    >
    > Out of scope (for now at least)
    > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
    > Program”[1] with certified training partners
    > * Project documentation
    >
    > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here or
    > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I think
    > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
    > worthwhile.
    >
    > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I would
    > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
    > and shape.
    >
    > Anticipated FAQs:
    >
    > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
    > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
    > material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
    > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
    > central project doing this than having this as part of every project
    > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
    > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
    > all want to learn about the ecosystem).
    >
    > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
    > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d actually
    > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
    > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now (which
    > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
    >
    > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
    > project?
    > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment but
    > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
    > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably reuse
    > some content and tools.
    >
    > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
    > should do PechaKucha at all times.
    > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable format
    > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
    > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
    > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
    > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
    > other project.
    >
    > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
    > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
    > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@) to
    > which I do not yet have an answer.
    >
    > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
    > of this mail.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Lars
    >
    > [0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
    > [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
    > [2] <https://community.apache.org/>
    >
    

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>]

Thanks for your quick response, your comments and your support.

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 2:37 PM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:

> It's worth mentioning that there's a conversation going right now over on
> the members@ list about creating a "central services" kind of entity. That
> discussion is primarily focused on design/graphic kind of stuff, but
> training/documentation/presentations are similar in concept, if not in
> content, and I'm definitely in favor of such an entity existing.
>

I managed to miss that thread but I'll go over it later today. Thanks for
pointing that out.


> Your anticipated question "Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do
> PPT!" is very insightful. The ASF exists to provide services to projects,
> and this is an unfilled need that many/most of our projects have. There is
> precedent - we have an infrastructure organization, a conferences entity, a
> marketing group, legal, brand, and so on, that provide non-code services to
> projects. Recognizing contributors for non-code contributions is *critical*
> for the survival of our projects, and of the Foundation as a whole, and we
> tend to be very poor at it.
>
> So, suffice it to say, a huge +1 to this concept, although I'm not sure
> where it should live - whether under ComDev (as you suggest) or as a
> top-level entity. I think the latter makes a little more sense. While this
> is indeed a function of community development/growth/education, it's also
> sufficiently different that it may need to be independent.
>

I agree. It feels more like its own project but if others feel strongly I
don't have a super strong preference either.


> What are next steps? I don't *think* this is something that should go
> through the Incubator. It's not a Thing Like That. Perhaps a proposal to
> the Board to create a top-level thing? I'll put a pointer to this thread
> into that other thread (referenced above), and apologies to those of you
> who are not ASF Members and cannot see that thread.
>

I have to admit that I don't know either. But I thought that this mailing
list would at least be a good place to discuss this as lots of projects
start here and people have experience with it. And I assume that lots of
members and some board people are reading here as well. I'm not opposed to
start it as a top-level project. I'll defer to people with a longer ASF
history. I'm not sure about the precedent but I know that it sometimes
happens.


> On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:23 AM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
> > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials
> for
> > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
> >
> > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
> > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
> > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
> > keep those up-to-date.
> >
> > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
> > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is
> worth
> > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
> > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
> > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
> >
> > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
> > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
> > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are
> currently
> > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us
> in
> > open sourcing their material.
> >
> > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it
> should
> > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
> > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears
> as a
> > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a
> familiar
> > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
> > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
> >
> > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
> > code and potentially other media forms.
> >
> > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as
> possible,
> > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
> > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
> > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
> > using this material would need to customize it.
> >
> > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
> > In scope:
> > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
> > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
> > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
> > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
> > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and
> combined)
> >
> > Out of scope (for now at least)
> > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
> > Program”[1] with certified training partners
> > * Project documentation
> >
> > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here
> or
> > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I
> think
> > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
> > worthwhile.
> >
> > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I
> would
> > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
> > and shape.
> >
> > Anticipated FAQs:
> >
> > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
> > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
> > material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
> > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
> > central project doing this than having this as part of every project
> > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
> > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
> > all want to learn about the ecosystem).
> >
> > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
> > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d
> actually
> > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
> > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now
> (which
> > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
> >
> > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
> > project?
> > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment
> but
> > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
> > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably
> reuse
> > some content and tools.
> >
> > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
> > should do PechaKucha at all times.
> > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable
> format
> > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
> > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
> > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
> > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
> > other project.
> >
> > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
> > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
> > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@)
> to
> > which I do not yet have an answer.
> >
> > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
> > of this mail.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Lars
> >
> > [0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
> > [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
> > [2] <https://community.apache.org/>
> >
>

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>]

It's worth mentioning that there's a conversation going right now over on
the members@ list about creating a "central services" kind of entity. That
discussion is primarily focused on design/graphic kind of stuff, but
training/documentation/presentations are similar in concept, if not in
content, and I'm definitely in favor of such an entity existing.

Your anticipated question "Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do
PPT!" is very insightful. The ASF exists to provide services to projects,
and this is an unfilled need that many/most of our projects have. There is
precedent - we have an infrastructure organization, a conferences entity, a
marketing group, legal, brand, and so on, that provide non-code services to
projects. Recognizing contributors for non-code contributions is *critical*
for the survival of our projects, and of the Foundation as a whole, and we
tend to be very poor at it.

So, suffice it to say, a huge +1 to this concept, although I'm not sure
where it should live - whether under ComDev (as you suggest) or as a
top-level entity. I think the latter makes a little more sense. While this
is indeed a function of community development/growth/education, it's also
sufficiently different that it may need to be independent.

What are next steps? I don't *think* this is something that should go
through the Incubator. It's not a Thing Like That. Perhaps a proposal to
the Board to create a top-level thing? I'll put a pointer to this thread
into that other thread (referenced above), and apologies to those of you
who are not ASF Members and cannot see that thread.


On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:23 AM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or Central
> Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related materials for
> ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects.
>
> I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money doing
> consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and we have
> developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard work to
> keep those up-to-date.
>
> We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the same
> challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck is worth
> that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe the
> instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that person is
> deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC.
>
> So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and other
> resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in the hopes
> that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are currently
> talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in joining us in
> open sourcing their material.
>
> I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if it should
> be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here because I
> think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it appears as a
> “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a familiar
> structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects though
> (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?).
>
> This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also accompanying
> code and potentially other media forms.
>
> One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as possible,
> but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on the
> matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and
> communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess anyone
> using this material would need to customize it.
>
> This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback.
> In scope:
> * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings
> * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises
> * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those labs
> * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a slide
> repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and combined)
>
> Out of scope (for now at least)
> * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training
> Program”[1] with certified training partners
> * Project documentation
>
> I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or here or
> somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a “project” I think
> this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you think it
> worthwhile.
>
> I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on this. I would
> be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a result
> and shape.
>
> Anticipated FAQs:
>
> Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training?
> A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but developing
> material for professional “training” is quite different from writing
> documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a single
> central project doing this than having this as part of every project
> itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project
> trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” training. They
> all want to learn about the ecosystem).
>
> Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT!
> A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d actually
> like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not about the
> code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations now (which
> could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one.
>
> Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of that
> project?
> A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or alignment but
> from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two distinct
> projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and probably reuse
> some content and tools.
>
> Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... everyone
> should do PechaKucha at all times.
> A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a suitable format
> will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical
> discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache Jira and
> Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be
> disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different than any
> other project.
>
> Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my corporate
> design? I'm not allowed to not use CD.
> A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves legal@) to
> which I do not yet have an answer.
>
> Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the review
> of this mail.
>
> Cheers,
> Lars
>
> [0] <https://www.opencore.com/>
> [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/>
> [2] <https://community.apache.org/>
>

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>]

Great, thanks for the feedback.

I'll work on that in the next few days!

Happy holidays everyone,
Lars

On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 9:00 AM Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>
> wrote:
> > ...Even with direct to TLP it might be good to put a proposal together
> like an incubating project....
>
> +1, doing the proposal here is also better for visibility, and many
> steps are common between incubation and straight to TLP.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>]

On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 9:00 AM Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> ...Even with direct to TLP it might be good to put a proposal together like an incubating project....

+1, doing the proposal here is also better for visibility, and many
steps are common between incubation and straight to TLP.

-Bertrand

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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

["Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>]

I'm also +1 on a proposal on incubator even if it's voted on direct to
TLP.  It will help you significantly in understanding the goals of the
PMC and get others involved.  And if I can get the companies like
Udacity, Udemy, Coursera, Pluralsight, etc. to come to the table and
help, they will likely need the incubation process to understand the
Apache Way.

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
VP Fundraising, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>]

Hi,

> Thanks Kevin for the suggestion. I'm a bit unsure on how to proceed. The
> consensus seemed to lean more towards the direct-to-TLP route. 

Even with direct to TLP it might be good to put a proposal together like an incubating project. [1] That may also work out which route is better.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#proposal_template
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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>]

I've waited two days to see if there is more feedback.
Seems as if the discussion has died down. I've only heard positive feedback
so far.

Thanks Kevin for the suggestion. I'm a bit unsure on how to proceed. The
consensus seemed to lean more towards the direct-to-TLP route. Would I have
to propose this on members@ as Sally just did in the thread that Rich
referred to earlier?

On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 5:47 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
wrote:

> On 12/18/2018 11:43 AM, Lars Francke wrote:
> > You, Rich and KAM talk about a TLP/Central Service so let's start
> > discussing that. I'm fairly well informed about the Incubator but I have
> no
> > ideas about the direct-to-TLP/Central Services path. Any pointers/mentors
> > would be great. If no one objects I'd like to start the process of
> DISCUSS
> > and potentially VOTE in the right place then. Would that be members@ or
> > board@ or something else entirely? All documentation I can find is about
> > new Incubator projects.
>
> Lars, I would recommend you create a proposal to become a podling in the
> incubator with you as the champion.  See
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ and perhaps an example proposal like
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IoTDBProposal
>
> Regards,
> KAM
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> VP Fundraising, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>

Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

["Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>]

On 12/18/2018 11:43 AM, Lars Francke wrote:
> You, Rich and KAM talk about a TLP/Central Service so let's start
> discussing that. I'm fairly well informed about the Incubator but I have no
> ideas about the direct-to-TLP/Central Services path. Any pointers/mentors
> would be great. If no one objects I'd like to start the process of DISCUSS
> and potentially VOTE in the right place then. Would that be members@ or
> board@ or something else entirely? All documentation I can find is about
> new Incubator projects.

Lars, I would recommend you create a proposal to become a podling in the
incubator with you as the champion.  See
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ and perhaps an example proposal like
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IoTDBProposal

Regards,
KAM

-- 
Kevin A. McGrail
VP Fundraising, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171


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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 10:09 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 2:23 PM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> &gt; ...we do not believe that a slide-deck is worth
> &gt; that much on its own...
>
> I agree but I think the course outline has a lot of value: if I know
> the topic and have a good course plan, I can walk in and deliver a
> valuable course without much preparation.
>

True.


> But you are right that the instructor is the real added value and
> sharing course plans, exercises etc. makes a lot of sense and should
> help make *all* instructors more valuable by sharing that "course
> infrastructure".
>
> Neutral formats work well for that - creating nice slides out of of
> them might also be added value that people can provide, outside of the
> project. We all know how hard it is to agree on the look of shiny
> things in Open Source projects ;-)
>
> I agree with Rich that this can overlap with other Central Services
> that have been discussed recently, so the starting point might just be
> to create such a Central Services PMC and take it from there.
>
> If there are enough ASF Members on board I also agree with Rich that
> straight-to-TLP makes sense. I might not be able to provide much
> concrete help but I am *very* supportive of the idea.
>

Great, thank you for the input and the support.

You, Rich and KAM talk about a TLP/Central Service so let's start
discussing that. I'm fairly well informed about the Incubator but I have no
ideas about the direct-to-TLP/Central Services path. Any pointers/mentors
would be great. If no one objects I'd like to start the process of DISCUSS
and potentially VOTE in the right place then. Would that be members@ or
board@ or something else entirely? All documentation I can find is about
new Incubator projects.


> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Establishing an ASF project for training

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>]

Hi,

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 2:23 PM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
&gt; ...we do not believe that a slide-deck is worth
&gt; that much on its own...

I agree but I think the course outline has a lot of value: if I know
the topic and have a good course plan, I can walk in and deliver a
valuable course without much preparation.

But you are right that the instructor is the real added value and
sharing course plans, exercises etc. makes a lot of sense and should
help make *all* instructors more valuable by sharing that "course
infrastructure".

Neutral formats work well for that - creating nice slides out of of
them might also be added value that people can provide, outside of the
project. We all know how hard it is to agree on the look of shiny
things in Open Source projects ;-)

I agree with Rich that this can overlap with other Central Services
that have been discussed recently, so the starting point might just be
to create such a Central Services PMC and take it from there.

If there are enough ASF Members on board I also agree with Rich that
straight-to-TLP makes sense. I might not be able to provide much
concrete help but I am *very* supportive of the idea.

-Bertrand

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