Re: Documentation and repeats

[Scott Anderson <sa...@ttm.com>]

Jon Stevens wrote:
> This project has been going strong for about 4 years now. I don't think it
> is faltering at all. We have an excellent codebase and a diverse, strong
> and *very smart* community.

For which you are to be congratulated, and I'm not about to get in a
fight about it. I'm not disparaging your codebase. I might note,
however, that the only major projects I've seen referenced by the
documentation (which is out of date, I'm sure ;-) are ones written by
the major developers themselves. :-)

> > Turbine is a very fine piece of work, but you don't encourage people to
> > contribute by berating them on public mailing lists. :-)
> 
> And my point being that if I spend time telling you something, I expect you
> to listen to it. :-) There have now been a couple cases now where I have
> had to repeat the same thing because you didn't see it the first time.

And I've had to repeat several things to you, which makes us even in my
book. :-)

> 
>     #1. The correct URL to use. Not only is that in the documentation for
>         the TDK, but I also stated it on the list.

And you'll please note that I apologized for that as well. I won't go
into the particular eye condition I have that causes me to make such
mistakes because I don't want to risk embarrassing you for beating me up
about it. ;-)


>     #2. The methodology for editing the documentation is on the website and
>         in the archives of the list.

When I asked that question, I had tacked it onto a very long post as an
addendum. Hardly a waste of time to read for those who had gone through
the entire post, hmm? 

The archives are pretty much useless unless you know the exact keyword
you're looking for, as I pointed out. Oops, I guess I repeated that, eh?

>     #3. I pointed at the Pull Model.

Yes, you did, answering a question I hadn't asked. What's your point?

> Yes, I agree, documentation is Turbine's weakest point and always will be
> (you can never have enough examples that tell people how to write their
> code), but, if I write documentation all day long and you don't read it,
> what is the point?

<repeat>And as I pointed out, I've read the documentation.</repeat>
(gets annoying, doesn't it?) The problem isn't so much the amount or
quality (other than the out-of-date and incorrect examples), but rather
the indexing and organization. If you write documentation all day long
and don't organize it in a useful fashion, then it's of no use to
anyone, is it?

Incidentally, FAQs are just that: Frequently Asked Questions. I've seen
at least two other people ask about the same issues I had with contexts
since I started following the list (one of whom I responded to myself,
incidentally). I'd go check the Jyve site, but it's been unavailable for
several days for me.

Regards,
-scott

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Re: Documentation and repeats

["Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>]

Gary Schulte wrote:
> 
> unsubscribe flamewar-pissing-contest
> 
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:
> 
> > on 3/27/01 1:00 PM, "Scott Anderson" <sa...@ttm.com> wrote:
> >
> [SNIP]

wouldn't a 'flamewar-pissing-contest' just result in a bit of acidic
steam?

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.                               geirm@optonline.net
Developing for the web?  See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/

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Re: Documentation and repeats

[Gary Schulte <ga...@singular.org>]

unsubscribe flamewar-pissing-contest

On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:

> on 3/27/01 1:00 PM, "Scott Anderson" <sa...@ttm.com> wrote:
>
> > For which you are to be congratulated, and I'm not about to get in a
> > fight about it. I'm not disparaging your codebase. I might note,
> > however, that the only major projects I've seen referenced by the
> > documentation (which is out of date, I'm sure ;-) are ones written by
> > the major developers themselves. :-)
>
> That is because a lot of the major projects which use Turbine can't actually
> speak about it and/or do not care to have it advertised on the website.
>
> I don't think that is a good metric of whether or not Turbine is "valid".
> The code is what determines that.
>
> Anyway, what is your point?
>
> > And you'll please note that I apologized for that as well. I won't go
> > into the particular eye condition I have that causes me to make such
> > mistakes because I don't want to risk embarrassing you for beating me up
> > about it. ;-)
>
> Yet you keep feeling the need to lecture me on things. Eh?
>
> > When I asked that question, I had tacked it onto a very long post as an
> > addendum. Hardly a waste of time to read for those who had gone through
> > the entire post, hmm?
>
> I read the second message that you posted first. I also only skimmed a good
> portion of the rest of the other message. Notice I only replied to the
> bottom part.
>
> > The archives are pretty much useless unless you know the exact keyword
> > you're looking for, as I pointed out. Oops, I guess I repeated that, eh?
>
> Not really. If you are subscribed to the list, then you are reading the
> messages one by one in real time as they come into your mailbox. Now, if you
> pretend that the messages in the archives are the same thing, only
> postmarked at a later date, then what is the difference?
>
> > Yes, you did, answering a question I hadn't asked. What's your point?
>
> If you read the Pull document, you will understand the reason why we don't
> encourage the mapping (which was your question...).
>
> > <repeat>And as I pointed out, I've read the documentation.</repeat>
> > (gets annoying, doesn't it?) The problem isn't so much the amount or
> > quality (other than the out-of-date and incorrect examples), but rather
> > the indexing and organization. If you write documentation all day long
> > and don't organize it in a useful fashion, then it's of no use to
> > anyone, is it?
>
> It seems useful and organized to me. It isn't 100% correct, but that isn't
> enough to really stop anyone from working with things or figuring out what
> is correct and submitting patches.
>
> > Incidentally, FAQs are just that: Frequently Asked Questions. I've seen
> > at least two other people ask about the same issues I had with contexts
> > since I started following the list (one of whom I responded to myself,
> > incidentally). I'd go check the Jyve site, but it's been unavailable for
> > several days for me.
>
> Yup, answering the same questions over and over has taken up all my time
> working on Jyve (which I originally wrote in the first place). Nice catch 22
> eh? Unfortunately, the person (Mike Haberman) who stepped up to do the Jyve
> version 2.0 hasn't checked his code into CVS so that others could help with
> the development so the entire project has pretty much stalled into oblivion.
> Given that this is a volunteer organization, no one else has stepped up to
> resolve the issue and you get to suffer as a result. Sorry, there isn't
> enough hours in the day for me to run and do everything.
>
> You are obviously new and have a lot of fire in your belly to argue back at
> me over things. That will get us no where. The only thing that will get us
> moving in a forward direction is for you to either leave entirely and let me
> and others get back to struggling with things or for you to jump in head
> first and start working and resolving the issues that you keep pointing out
> over and over again (which we already know about and just don't have the
> time/energy to fix). Personally, I prefer that you help out. So, which is
> it?
>
> -jon
>
>
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-- 


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Re: Documentation and repeats

[Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>]

on 3/27/01 1:00 PM, "Scott Anderson" <sa...@ttm.com> wrote:

> For which you are to be congratulated, and I'm not about to get in a
> fight about it. I'm not disparaging your codebase. I might note,
> however, that the only major projects I've seen referenced by the
> documentation (which is out of date, I'm sure ;-) are ones written by
> the major developers themselves. :-)

That is because a lot of the major projects which use Turbine can't actually
speak about it and/or do not care to have it advertised on the website.

I don't think that is a good metric of whether or not Turbine is "valid".
The code is what determines that.

Anyway, what is your point?

> And you'll please note that I apologized for that as well. I won't go
> into the particular eye condition I have that causes me to make such
> mistakes because I don't want to risk embarrassing you for beating me up
> about it. ;-)

Yet you keep feeling the need to lecture me on things. Eh?

> When I asked that question, I had tacked it onto a very long post as an
> addendum. Hardly a waste of time to read for those who had gone through
> the entire post, hmm?

I read the second message that you posted first. I also only skimmed a good
portion of the rest of the other message. Notice I only replied to the
bottom part.

> The archives are pretty much useless unless you know the exact keyword
> you're looking for, as I pointed out. Oops, I guess I repeated that, eh?

Not really. If you are subscribed to the list, then you are reading the
messages one by one in real time as they come into your mailbox. Now, if you
pretend that the messages in the archives are the same thing, only
postmarked at a later date, then what is the difference?

> Yes, you did, answering a question I hadn't asked. What's your point?

If you read the Pull document, you will understand the reason why we don't
encourage the mapping (which was your question...).

> <repeat>And as I pointed out, I've read the documentation.</repeat>
> (gets annoying, doesn't it?) The problem isn't so much the amount or
> quality (other than the out-of-date and incorrect examples), but rather
> the indexing and organization. If you write documentation all day long
> and don't organize it in a useful fashion, then it's of no use to
> anyone, is it?

It seems useful and organized to me. It isn't 100% correct, but that isn't
enough to really stop anyone from working with things or figuring out what
is correct and submitting patches.

> Incidentally, FAQs are just that: Frequently Asked Questions. I've seen
> at least two other people ask about the same issues I had with contexts
> since I started following the list (one of whom I responded to myself,
> incidentally). I'd go check the Jyve site, but it's been unavailable for
> several days for me.

Yup, answering the same questions over and over has taken up all my time
working on Jyve (which I originally wrote in the first place). Nice catch 22
eh? Unfortunately, the person (Mike Haberman) who stepped up to do the Jyve
version 2.0 hasn't checked his code into CVS so that others could help with
the development so the entire project has pretty much stalled into oblivion.
Given that this is a volunteer organization, no one else has stepped up to
resolve the issue and you get to suffer as a result. Sorry, there isn't
enough hours in the day for me to run and do everything.

You are obviously new and have a lot of fire in your belly to argue back at
me over things. That will get us no where. The only thing that will get us
moving in a forward direction is for you to either leave entirely and let me
and others get back to struggling with things or for you to jump in head
first and start working and resolving the issues that you keep pointing out
over and over again (which we already know about and just don't have the
time/energy to fix). Personally, I prefer that you help out. So, which is
it?

-jon


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