Re: IP issues

[Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>]

Jason Hunter wrote:
> I do have a CLA on file.  Aren't members required to?  :)
> 
> That code donation happened while Tomcat was still Sun internal and I 
> was helping Sun as a contractor.  Those were the good old days before I 
> was burdened with the knowledge about IP rights that I've since acquired 
> (as has Remy obviously).  It was even before Jakarta.
> 
> I'm still fine with the donation.  Technically the code wouldn't be 
> covered under the CLA since I didn't take action to donate the code to 
> Apache; it just came over from Sun in the bundle.  I'm happy to go on 
> record here as giving it a formal stamp of approval, with the one caveat 
> that I'd like it to retain attribution since the classes have a life of 
> their own separately.  I believe Apache has policies for including code 
> with attribution.  Our own license requires attribution, so we'd 
> better.  :)

Jumping back to the thread I started since I'm back from vacation ...

The comment includes "Used by Sun Microsystems with permission.". I 
don't see any explicit permission for this item (so AFAIK, we're not 
covered if we mention we need Sun's permission for that code), nor see 
why we need an exception for such a such a small amount of code.

I can easily add an @author tag for you in the relevant files, but the 
comment currently creates a legal doubt.

Note: Many companies and individuals donated more than these 10 lines of 
code, and they do not get any special treatment besides author tags 
(which many want to remove). A comment is clearly excessive. Is there an 
advertising clause in the license you used ?

Rémy

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Re: IP issues

[Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>]

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:58:14 -0800, Costin Manolache
<cm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I fully agree. Doesn't matter how small a contribution is ( or looks at
> some later time ), keeping the reference to the author and whatever else
> the author wants to include is the right thing to do ( if the code is
> accepted and used ).
> 
> Too bad what's ethical doesn't matter that much, only copyrights and IP
> ownership  :-)

I'd like to add "Genscape, Inc. Monitoring the world's power. For
info, call 502 555 1000" to any bits of code unlucky enough to have
had me near them :)

Or maybe "All your plant belong to us". Damn. I need to go talk to the
marketing drones.

Hen

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Re: IP issues

[Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>]

Jason Hunter wrote:

>> nor see why we need an exception for such a such a small amount of code.
> 
> 
> You need an exception because (a) the code was included from a third 
> party codebase and (b) a lot of research and testing went into compiling 
> the map used by the mapper.
> 
>> I can easily add an @author tag for you in the relevant files, but the 
>> comment currently creates a legal doubt.
> 
> 
> As I wrote in my email and for the archived record, I want the classes 
> to have the recognition that is expected when Apache includes code from 
> a third party library that's under a license that requires attribution 
> (just like Apache's).



The files says "copyright ASF" - but it seems that's not completely 
accurate ( I assume someone mistakenly removed your "Copyright Jason 
Hunder" ? ).

As an author, you should be able to keep any notice that you consider 
apropriate. If you didn't explicitely assign the coypright to ASF ( or 
to Sun ), than I don't think it would be right for anyone to remove your 
name or attribution.

If you did assign the rights to ASF - then as you know anything can be 
removed or changed by the new owner, including @author tags or any 
mention of previous author ( just make sure your name does gets into 
whatever obscure file lists all people who contributed something ) :-)



>> Note: Many companies and individuals donated more than these 10 lines 
>> of code, 


> 
> 
> Yes, and I too donated plenty of code to the Tomcat codebase.  But these 
> classes I donated (to Sun at the time) with attribution because they 
> were from a separate, pre-existing codebase with a life of its own.
> 
> If you write a book and include a paragraph from someone else's book 
> with permission, you mention it and you point at the source of the 
> original work.  You don't just say, "Written by author X" you say, 
> "Written by author X as part of book Y, published by Z."  That's why the 
> attribution I put on those classes includes the who, what, and where.  I 
> see it as the ethical thing to do.

I fully agree. Doesn't matter how small a contribution is ( or looks at 
some later time ), keeping the reference to the author and whatever else 
the author wants to include is the right thing to do ( if the code is 
accepted and used ).

Too bad what's ethical doesn't matter that much, only copyrights and IP 
ownership  :-)



Costin


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Re: IP issues

[Jason Hunter <jh...@acm.org>]

Remy Maucherat wrote:

> Jason Hunter wrote:
> 
>> I do have a CLA on file.  Aren't members required to?  :)
>>
>> That code donation happened while Tomcat was still Sun internal and I 
>> was helping Sun as a contractor.  Those were the good old days before 
>> I was burdened with the knowledge about IP rights that I've since 
>> acquired (as has Remy obviously).  It was even before Jakarta.
>>
>> I'm still fine with the donation.  Technically the code wouldn't be 
>> covered under the CLA since I didn't take action to donate the code to 
>> Apache; it just came over from Sun in the bundle.  I'm happy to go on 
>> record here as giving it a formal stamp of approval, with the one 
>> caveat that I'd like it to retain attribution since the classes have a 
>> life of their own separately.  I believe Apache has policies for 
>> including code with attribution.  Our own license requires 
>> attribution, so we'd better.  :)
> 
> Jumping back to the thread I started since I'm back from vacation ...

And here I thought we put the thread to rest.

> The comment includes "Used by Sun Microsystems with permission.". I 
> don't see any explicit permission for this item 

Please see my email above there I answer this.

> (so AFAIK, we're not 
> covered if we mention we need Sun's permission for that code), 

Correct.  But please see above.

> nor see 
> why we need an exception for such a such a small amount of code.

You need an exception because (a) the code was included from a third 
party codebase and (b) a lot of research and testing went into compiling 
the map used by the mapper.

> I can easily add an @author tag for you in the relevant files, but the 
> comment currently creates a legal doubt.

As I wrote in my email and for the archived record, I want the classes 
to have the recognition that is expected when Apache includes code from 
a third party library that's under a license that requires attribution 
(just like Apache's).

> Note: Many companies and individuals donated more than these 10 lines of 
> code, 

Yes, and I too donated plenty of code to the Tomcat codebase.  But these 
classes I donated (to Sun at the time) with attribution because they 
were from a separate, pre-existing codebase with a life of its own.

If you write a book and include a paragraph from someone else's book 
with permission, you mention it and you point at the source of the 
original work.  You don't just say, "Written by author X" you say, 
"Written by author X as part of book Y, published by Z."  That's why the 
attribution I put on those classes includes the who, what, and where.  I 
see it as the ethical thing to do.

-jh-


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