It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

Hello all,

When the Apache Group named itself and its software Apache, they were
continuing a long-practiced North American settler tradition of
appropriating Native identity as a costume for their own causes. An
environment filled with propaganda including everything from Hollywood
media to music festivals and children’s summer camps enabled them to feel
entitled to play Indian.

The feather logo, meant to symbolize this community was clearly chosen for
its association with Native people and their cultures. In the US feathers
from many birds are highly regulated by the Feds, a lasting legacy of
attempts at suppressing Indigenous cultures. In the 1970’s the Washington
Redskins had a feather logo. After protests from Native people complaining
about the name and the indignity of a feather being used to represent
people, the team commissioned a Native artist to redraw one of their older
“Indian head” logos instead of doing the right thing and changing the name
and branding entirely.

There’s no respectful way to use other people, let alone survivors of
genocide, as a costume for your own causes. ASF’s mascotry has spawned its
own niche of digital redface in projects like Apache Geronimo and Apache
Arrow and no doubt inspired many others to use similar stereotyping. It’s
almost a cliché to say but imagine substituting a different group with
different stereotypes to use as branding.

As a developer I recognize that ASF is involved in some of the most
influential software out there. But as a Tlingit with the privilege of
living on Lingít Aaní I can’t discuss ASF or its projects without cringing.
By now there have been multiple peer-reviewed studies outlining the direct
and indirect harm that Native mascotry causes Native and non-Native people.
Schools, commercial products, and professional sports teams have changed
their names and rebranded. It’s long past time for ASF to do the same.

Gunalchéesh,
Walter Cameron

[DoubleDown Interactive ] Re: Re: It’s time to change the name

["Hanna (DoubleDown Interactive )" <su...@doubledowncasino1.zendesk.com>]

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Dev, Apr 29, 2022, 15:21 PDT

Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
in favor of something else.

The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
after native culture.

As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
<wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
>
> I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh to
> everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out more of
> a plan.
>
> I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the name,
> it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will also
> but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the Washington
> Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a stopgap
> name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from the
> membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut also
> says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> welcome a new name.
>
> I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the membership
> indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort and
> volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where people
> knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s what
> the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone else and
> maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
>
> Walter
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point out that
> > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the perception
> > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many of the
> > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are going to be
> > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to minimize the
> > impact of some of those dependencies).
> >
> > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the effort.
> > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are
> > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it
> > by committee?
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> > Walter,
> >
> > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly
> > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions at
> > The
> > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > * President,
> > * Executive Vice President,
> > * VP Infra,
> > * VP Brand,
> > * VP Fundraising,
> > * Treasurer,
> > * VP Legal,
> > * VP Conferences,
> > * VP Privacy.
> >
> > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes that
> > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without contract
> > negotiations, and added costs.
> >
> > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while also
> > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> >
> > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > Foundation
> > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know how to
> > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are asking
> > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them on,
> > or
> > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a volunteer.
> > Y'all check me, but I see:
> >
> > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.
> > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
> > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,
> > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the
> > incubator logo, etc.
> > * Registering a new website domain.
> > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > projects.
> > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License
> > 2.0",
> > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various license
> > pickers.
> > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > recognition
> > as the old name.
> > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> >
> > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example there
> > has
> > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > establishing
> > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted. You'd
> > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> >
> > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you
> > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.
> > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only use
> > the
> > new name for new artifacts.
> >
> > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would
> > fall
> > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and set up
> > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would have
> > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to notify
> > all
> > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of
> > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are
> > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond to
> > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible to
> > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would
> > break
> > client code.
> >
> > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation that
> > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain name,
> > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache" in new
> > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be possible. And
> > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be possible
> > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > require
> > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > problem,
> > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing consensus
> > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> >
> > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will
> > take
> > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably
> > never
> > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > possibly
> > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > people
> > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it for as
> > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to take
> > on
> > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort, and I
> > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> >
> > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you willing
> > to
> > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that, your
> > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some of
> > the
> > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it
> > weren't so.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle Krantz
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would
> > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote
> > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE
> > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
> > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > >
> > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be
> > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the
> > > most polarized opinions.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> > > > good idea.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing
> > > (and
> > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a
> > dipstick
> > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.
> > > Polling
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > >
> > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have
> > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it
> > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
> > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > >
> > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you
> > > looking at
> > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting
> > > urgency
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that
> > covers
> > > > > > almost
> > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be
> > > smart
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad
> > hoc
> > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on
> > > this,
> > > > > > no.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll
> > and
> > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
> > > >
> > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members
> > > > watch this list.
> > > >
> > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > >
> > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say
> > land
> > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all
> > > school
> > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for
> > this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in
> > an
> > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic
> > > sympathy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so
> > we
> > > can
> > > > > > open
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their
> > > official
> > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is
> > > viewed as
> > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > feasibility
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way
> > of
> > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > confirmation
> > > bias,
> > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would
> > > require
> > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail
> > pretty
> > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> > > Washington
> > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to
> > 5.
> > > This
> > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial
> > > questions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a
> > name
> > > > > > change
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).
> > > Large
> > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often
> > > rebrand
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials)
> > are
> > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy
> > to
> > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any
> > > particular
> > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we
> > > can put
> > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example,
> > the
> > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> > > artifact,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people
> > outside
> > > of
> > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > addresses,
> > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > trademarks,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where
> > it's
> > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons
> > of
> > > key
> > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may
> > not
> > > adopt
> > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns
> > I've
> > > had
> > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > another
> > > OSS
> > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,
> >
> > > since
> > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and
> > > proposing
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the
> > > content we
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea
> > on
> > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm
> > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I
> > echo
> > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy
> > to
> > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these
> > > questions in
> > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization
> > > willing
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point
> > of
> > > no
> > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand,
> > it’s
> > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > community
> > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based
> > on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue
> > or
> > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> > > interested
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer
> > to
> > > do?
> > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > attention
> > > to
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging
> > it
> > > but I
> > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d
> > > speak
> > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work
> > to
> > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that
> > > might
> > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you
> > > want me
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar
> > with
> > > the
> > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> > > Directors,
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what
> > needs
> > > to be
> > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > rudimentary
> > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > together
> > > a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I
> > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a
> > > try.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid
> > > staff
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > continue
> > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction
> > > outweigh
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> > >
> >

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[DOGGQV-0LRX]

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Owen Rubel <or...@gmail.com>]

I would also ask if this is an official complaint from the Apache tribes
because only they and their representatives can file an official complaint
in regards to the Apache tribes.

Anyone else is not speaking on behalf of the tribes.

In respect to the tribes and their elders, I would first want to hear their
perspectives and see how the Apache foundation could first work with them
and see if their is an issue before making any drastic decisions.

Owen Rubel
orubel@gmail.com


On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
>
>
>
> From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> good idea.
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Copying them now.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> >
> > > @Andrew,
> > >
> > > How do we engage the board?
> > >
> > >
> > > Ed Mangini
> > > me@emangini.com
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing
> (and
> > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick
> > > effort
> > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.
> Polling
> > > is
> > > > more about discovery.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
>
> I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have
> a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it
> isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
> It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> useful there needs to be some substance.
>
> > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking
> at
> > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting
> urgency
> > > on
> > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers
> > > almost
> > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be
> smart
> > > for
> > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc
> > > outreach.
> > >
> > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on
> this,
> > > no.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and
> > > > outreach?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
>
> Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members
> watch this list.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
> > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all
> school
> > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:
> > > >
> > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an
> > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic
> sympathy
> > > > to
> > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > >
> > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we
> can
> > > open
> > > > a
> > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their
> official
> > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > >
> > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > >
> > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed
> as
> > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> feasibility
> > > and
> > > > community values.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > @Christian
> > > > >
> > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of
> > > > defining
> > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation
> bias,
> > > > but I
> > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > @Matt
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would
> require
> > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty
> > > > quickly.
> > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> Washington
> > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5.
> This
> > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial
> questions.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name
> > > change
> > > > as
> > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).
> Large
> > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often
> rebrand
> > > > the
> > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> business/tech
> > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are
> > > > retrofit
> > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to
> > > pair/mob
> > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any
> particular
> > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > >
> > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can
> put
> > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the
> > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> unchangeable
> > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> artifact,
> > > the
> > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside
> of
> > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses,
> > > signing
> > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> trademarks,
> > > and
> > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's
> easy
> > > to
> > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of
> key
> > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not
> adopt
> > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've
> had
> > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another
> OSS
> > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > > spectacular
> > > > > idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,
> since
> > > (I
> > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and
> proposing
> > > > it
> > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content
> we
> > > > could
> > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on
> it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm
> feeling,
> > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > Christian
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo
> > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to
> > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions
> in
> > > > > concert:
> > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization
> willing
> > > to
> > > > > participate?
> > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of
> no
> > > > > return. If
> > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s
> > > going
> > > > > to
> > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community
> > > > first-
> > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> (non-binding)
> > > vote
> > > > is
> > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on
> the
> > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or
> > > > actually
> > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> interested
> > > in
> > > > > helping.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
>
> > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to
> do?
> > > > What
> > > > > is
> > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention
> to
> > > > this
> > > > > issue and
> > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but
> I
> > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d
> speak
> > > up,
> > > > > people
> > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to
> > > undo
> > > > the
> > > > > harm
> > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that
> might
> > > > spur
> > > > > effort
> > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want
> me
> > > to
> > > > do
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with
> the
> > > > details
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> Directors,
> > > so
> > > > in
> > > > > a lot
> > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to
> be
> > > > > done, but
> > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary
> > > > technical
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together
> a
> > > new
> > > > > logo or
> > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I
> haven’t
> > > > > designed a
> > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a
> try.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid
> staff
> > > and
> > > > > goals to
> > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue
> > > > receiving
> > > > > corporate
> > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction
> outweigh
> > > > the
> > > > > costs of
> > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>
> > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
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>
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

I don’t think anyone’s yet defined the governments to be contacted if a
dialog is what is sought. I’m assuming we mean at minimum the 8 currently
federally recognized tribes in the US:

-  Apache Tribe of Oklahoma
- Fort Sill Apache Tribe of Oklahoma
- Jicarilla Apache Nation, New Mexico
- Mescalero Apache Tribe of the Mescalero Reservation, New Mexico
- San Carlos Apache Tribe of the San Carlos Reservation, Arizona
- Tonto Apache Tribe of Arizona
- White Mountain Apache Tribe of the Fort Apache Reservation, Arizona
- Yavapai-Apache Nation of the Camp Verde Indian Reservation, Arizona

If there are groups in Mexico that identify as Apache I’m less familiar
with their governmental structures and would appreciate any more knowledge
anyone might have here. As someone whose own tribe is divided by the
US/Canadian border I’m familiar with how ethnic and historical connections
can cross colonial boundaries and the erasures that can cause.

To that point I think it’s going to be really hard to identify everyone
who’s represented by this term and who their representatives are and I’m
not sure if I’d even feel comfortable trying to draw such boundaries around
a cultural identification. Does anyone have more insight into this?

On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 9:58 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> In terms of ripple effect, I think we have to be more nuanced. The
> discussion appears to have three(probably more) underlying subtexts that we
> aren’t really isolating and addressing separately:
> - social impact. (Why we’re doing it)
> - business impact (How it impacts the folks who use our stuff)
> - level of effort (How much time, money, sweat, etc. it will require to do
> it)
>
> This still falls short of “what to actually do”, which I imagine would be
> an iterative process based on asking more questions pertaining to the above
> 3.
>
>
> Some info worth reading about renaming/rebranding.
> https://blog.ongig.com/diversity-and-inclusion/alleged-racist-brands/
>
> @Andrew M. You get the gold star :)
>
> From the article:
>
> JEEP CHEROKEE
>
> In March 2021, the new CEO of Stellantis (Jeep’s parent company) announced
> he is
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/jeep-owner-stellantis-is-open-to-dropping-cherokee-name-ceo-says-11614799301 to
> avoid racist product names.
>
> The company is in conversations with the Cherokee Tribe Leader and told
> the Wall Street Journal:
>
> “At this stage, I don’t know if there is a real problem. But if there is
> one, well, of course we will solve it.”
>
>
> Do we have someone who can take this on?
>
>
>
> From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 30, 2022 at 12:56:44
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> >I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
> have.
>
> Is it possible that we are also underestimating the positive effects that
> this ripple might have?
>
> When I go to any tech workplace or browse any open source mailing list
> it’s
> very obvious our industry has issues with diversity. I’m sure everyone
> here
> is because of other reasons and not the playing Indian, but how many
> people
> aren’t here because of the playing Indian and the microaggressions that it
> signals about how this group socializes and interacts?
>
> Tearing down those walls and barriers and any perceptions of
> unfriendliness
> is crucial to attracting new contributors with broader life experiences.
>
> I do understand that the settler state’s system supports ASF’s
> appropriation and there isn’t really a legal trademark or copyright
> recourse available to pursue a complaint there. The separation of scopes
> between different uses of the name might be enough to dissociate the idea
> of an Apache Helicopter with Apache Software as the system is intended,
> but
> they’re both clearly referencing the original connection of the term to a
> group of people and I don’t think that association can ever be completely
> broken.
>
> Is ASF going to always have a page up in perpetuity explaining “we don’t
> mean any mascotry here” to future generations? Will it be added as a
> disclaimer within the Apache License? Do all projects have to have a
> mention of it in the readme.md? Apache’s name stretches far and wide
> across
> computing.
>
> I’d recommend Philip Deloria’s “Playing Indian” to anyone interested in
> this topic who hasn’t read it yet. He makes a great point in his book that
> these sorts of identity plays are inherently unstable. I think keeping the
> name but with an asterisk would be a pretty literal example of that
> instability.
>
> Apache the term and its meanings and connections to the actual people have
> been stretched thin, this process is called indigenous erasure. I don’t
> think we’ll ever be able to completely dissociate the term with the
> people,
> that feels like an even bigger ask than renaming a software foundation.
>
> Walter
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 8:26 AM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
>
> > How do we change the original intent?
> >
> > > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point
> is
> > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
> >
> > Speaking of creativity:
> >
> > It might be far easier to actively track and nag everyone to change once
> > ASF changes it rather than doing name change.
> > And this is where members can help. We find all the references,
> > (this can be easily automated) and then we split those between
> > members and every member gets to chase whoever wrote
> > about it to update the statement. That would be a true engagement of
> > members for common cause :) and opportunity to build a true community
> > spirit.
> >
> > But on a more serious note. I think a plain statement of the name
> > association
> > and smart PR around it might be enough and it will eventually straighten
> > out.
> > We started a discussion about the decades-long process of ASF changing
> name
> > and now we come to mabe years long process of slow disappearance of
> > the association as written and mentioned by others (which is far weaker
> > than official ASF statement about the name association).
> >
> > And if combined with active reach-out (divided between members) it can
> > happen (at least for the vast majority of cases) much faster.
> >
> > > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely
> requisite
> > to
> > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require
> sponsorship.
> >
> > Certainly reaching out is a good idea - with explanation and intentions
> > and reasoning, but it is more to the members to see if they are
> generally
> > ok with such an approach.
> >
> > I think we do not really have to ask for permission or blessing - more
> > informing
> > and explaining our intentions and the fact that such discussions
> happened
> > and
> > that we - as members agreed to follow this direction due to respect and
> > homage
> > and due to respect to those who raised the concern that association with
> > the
> > Tribe bothers them. I am again referring to the "scope" of trademarks
> > which - if applied to this case broadly - means that no permission is
> > needed from
> > the Tribe.
> >
> > And I think it would be rather assymetrical to ask for sponsorship,
> > Taking into account that no harm was done and no piggy-backing really
> was
> > used,
> > I think the origin of the discussion is not that we "owe" something to
> the
> > Tribe
> > but that we should stop the association as it bothers some people.
> > No more no less. no matter if we change the name or not, the history is
> > what it is. And I think no-one here even suggested that "ASF owes money
> to
> > the Tribe because this and that ...".I think it's not the case to be
> > honest and
> > I would not even raise it as a point at all. If we all collectively
> > agree that "Apache" name in "software business" is fine when
> disassociated
> > from the Tribe, then there is nothing to sponsor or pay for simply :).
> >
> > J.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 2:48 PM Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Creative!
> > >
> > > How do we change the original intent?
> > >
> > > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point
> is
> > > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
> > >
> > > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely
> requisite
> > to
> > > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require
> sponsorship.
> > >
> > > We'd need careful wordsmithing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change
> > might
> > > > have.
> > > > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
> > > >
> > > > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
> > > >
> > > > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
> > > > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
> > > > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
> > > > rather than decades.
> > > >
> > > > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think,
> the
> > > > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
> > > > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some
> of
> > > > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and
> we
> > > > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
> > > > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation
> between
> > > > the two.
> > > >
> > > > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
> > > > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands"
> and
> > > > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
> > > > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
> > > > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
> > > > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have
> another
> > > > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
> > > > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark
> are
> > > > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
> > > >
> > > > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
> > > > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this
> was
> > > > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF
> actually
> > > > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
> > > > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
> > > > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
> > > > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones
> that
> > > > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over
> code").
> > > > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
> > > > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
> > > > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
> > > > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
> > > > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the
> users,
> > > > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
> > > > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe
> itself.
> > > > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the
> ASF
> > > > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
> > > > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
> > > > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
> > > > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
> > > > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry
> is
> > > > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
> > > >
> > > > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option
> to
> > > > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave
> the
> > > > name Apache with the foundation.
> > > >
> > > > Why don't we simply:
> > > >
> > > > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice
> acronym
> > > > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
> > > > there).
> > > > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something
> more
> > > > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized
> around
> > > > proposing and voting for a new logo)
> > > > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with
> the
> > > > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
> > > > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
> > > > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage
> for
> > > > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the
> meaning
> > > >
> > > > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
> > > > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the
> fact
> > > > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in
> the
> > > > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> > > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
> > > > simply?
> > > >
> > > > J.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal,
> > hypothesis,
> > > > etc. before we can drive a poll. I think coming up with those
> > questions is
> > > > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a
> challenge. I
> > > > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert
> > scale).
> > > > >
> > > > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the
> burden.
> > DEI
> > > > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right
> now.
> > There
> > > > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily
> > turn
> > > > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global
> > consultancy
> > > > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to
> > socialize the
> > > > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in
> > comparison
> > > > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have
> > their
> > > > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in
> DNS
> > > > > in favor of something else.
> > > > >
> > > > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as
> would
> > > > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> > > > > after native culture.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> > > > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more
> specific
> > > > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options
> on
> > > > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end
> being
> > > > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much
> more
> > > > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name
> change;
> > it
> > > > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't
> be
> > > > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> > > > > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here,
> > gunalchéesh
> > > > to
> > > > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing
> out
> > > > more of
> > > > > > a plan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to
> change
> > the
> > > > name,
> > > > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will
> > take
> > > > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others
> will
> > > > also
> > > > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> > > > Washington
> > > > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> > > > stopgap
> > > > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My
> gut
> > also
> > > > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community
> > would
> > > > > > welcome a new name.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to
> > enact
> > > > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
> > > > membership
> > > > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further
> > effort and
> > > > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups
> > where
> > > > people
> > > > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought
> that’s
> > > > what
> > > > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following
> everyone
> > > > else and
> > > > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walter
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to
> point
> > > > out that
> > > > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the
> > > > perception
> > > > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems.
> > Many
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there
> are
> > > > going to be
> > > > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
> > > > minimize the
> > > > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive”
> the
> > > > effort.
> > > > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many)
> that
> > are
> > > > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be
> to
> > > > drive it
> > > > > > > by committee?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > > > > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Walter,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
> > > > particularly
> > > > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership
> > positions
> > > > at
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > > > > > * President,
> > > > > > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > > > > > * VP Infra,
> > > > > > > * VP Brand,
> > > > > > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > > > > > * Treasurer,
> > > > > > > * VP Legal,
> > > > > > > * VP Conferences,
> > > > > > > * VP Privacy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined
> > scopes
> > > > that
> > > > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
> > > > contract
> > > > > > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time
> > while
> > > > also
> > > > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of
> The
> > > > > > > Foundation
> > > > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't
> > know
> > > > how to
> > > > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you
> are
> > > > asking
> > > > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine
> taking
> > them
> > > > on,
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
> > > > volunteer.
> > > > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the
> right
> > > > name.
> > > > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business
> relationships
> > the
> > > > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The
> > Foundation
> > > > owns,
> > > > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather
> > logo,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > > > > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's
> many
> > > > > > > projects.
> > > > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache
> > License
> > > > > > > 2.0",
> > > > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in
> various
> > > > license
> > > > > > > pickers.
> > > > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > > > > > recognition
> > > > > > > as the old name.
> > > > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For
> example
> > > > there
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > > > > > establishing
> > > > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be
> > restarted.
> > > > You'd
> > > > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For
> example,
> > you
> > > > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact
> > names.
> > > > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and
> > only
> > > > use
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > new name for new artifacts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of
> The
> > > > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's
> name
> > would
> > > > > > > fall
> > > > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names,
> > and
> > > > set up
> > > > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences
> > would
> > > > have
> > > > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need
> to
> > > > notify
> > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of
> > hours of
> > > > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers
> > who are
> > > > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to
> > respond
> > > > to
> > > > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be
> > impossible
> > > > to
> > > > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names
> > would
> > > > > > > break
> > > > > > > client code.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks
> > are
> > > > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an
> > expectation
> > > > that
> > > > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new
> > domain
> > > > name,
> > > > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of
> > "apache"
> > > > in new
> > > > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name
> change.
> > > > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
> > > > possible. And
> > > > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also
> be
> > > > possible
> > > > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this
> > would
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing
> > the
> > > > > > > problem,
> > > > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable,
> developing
> > > > consensus
> > > > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change
> itself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing
> here
> > will
> > > > > > > take
> > > > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will
> > probably
> > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from
> > hundreds,
> > > > > > > possibly
> > > > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to
> > convince
> > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are
> in
> > it
> > > > for as
> > > > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if
> someone
> > is
> > > > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm
> willing
> > to
> > > > take
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area
> of
> > > > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that
> > effort,
> > > > and I
> > > > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are
> you
> > > > willing
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of
> > that,
> > > > your
> > > > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and
> > some
> > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I
> > wish it
> > > > > > > weren't so.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > > Myrle Krantz
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions.
> This
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if
> the
> > > > vote
> > > > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll
> using
> > > > STevE
> > > > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where
> > opinions
> > > > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would
> > likely
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Julian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
>
> > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing
> lists
> > is
> > > > not a
> > > > > > > > > good idea.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <
> > > > akm@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
> > > > polarizing
> > > > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A
> poll
> > is a
> > > > > > > dipstick
> > > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy
> and
> > > > tactics.
> > > > > > > > Polling
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you
> > don't
> > > > have
> > > > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a
> > definition,
> > > > it
> > > > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
> > > > against).
> > > > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a
> poll
> > to be
> > > > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification,
> > are you
> > > > > > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the
> effort,
> > > > setting
> > > > > > > > urgency
> > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing
> topic
> > that
> > > > > > > covers
> > > > > > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that
> it
> > > > might be
> > > > > > > > smart
> > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before
> doing
> > > > any ad
> > > > > > > hoc
> > > > > > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
> > > > activities on
> > > > > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with
> > both a
> > > > poll
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a
> > lawyer.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
> > > > members
> > > > > > > > > watch this list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US,
> where
> > we
> > > > say
> > > > > > > land
> > > > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the
> > beginning of
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the
> > motivation for
> > > > > > > this:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote
> will
> > > > result in
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
> > > > enthusiastic
> > > > > > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile
> accusations.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe
> > governments
> > > > so
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand
> what
> > > > their
> > > > > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some
> deliberation.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather
> > symbol
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced
> > with
> > > > > > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has
> a
> > > > great way
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > > > > > confirmation
> > > > > > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something
> > that
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going
> to
> > > > fail
> > > > > > > pretty
> > > > > > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam
> of
> > the
> > > > > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from
> > JUnit
> > > > 4 to
> > > > > > > 5.
> > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
> > > > initial
> > > > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand
> change
> > and
> > > > a
> > > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate
> life
> > > > cycles).
> > > > > > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small
> > companies
> > > > often
> > > > > > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit
> > their
> > > > > > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
> > > > materials)
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll.
> I’m
> > > > happy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are
> > there
> > > > any
> > > > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a
> poll?
> > > > Maybe we
> > > > > > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important.
> For
> > > > example,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot
> of
> > > > > > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single
> > released
> > > > > > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of
> > people
> > > > > > > outside
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things,
> email
> > > > > > > addresses,
> > > > > > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
> > > > infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate
> > documents,
> > > > > > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the
> places
> > where
> > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly
> visible
> > in
> > > > tons
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
> > > > considering
> > > > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who
> may
> > or
> > > > may
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
> > > > concerns
> > > > > > > I've
> > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working
> > with
> > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still
> has
> > > > tons of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility
> > issues.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian
> Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
> > > > actually a
> > > > > > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll
> on
> > > > members@,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that
> > proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the
> > poll
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided
> > on the
> > > > > > > > content we
> > > > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my
> > first
> > > > idea
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives
> > me a
> > > > warm
> > > > > > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <
> grobmeier@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely
> > > > there. I
> > > > > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going
> to
> > be
> > > > easy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer
> > these
> > > > > > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the
> > > > rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the
> > > > organization
> > > > > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question
> > is a
> > > > point
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about
> our
> > > > brand,
> > > > > > > it’s
> > > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll
> in
> > the
> > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the
> community
> > > > > > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds.
> > But
> > > > based
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to
> explain
> > the
> > > > issue
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people
> who
> > are
> > > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <
> > > > walter.lists@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > > > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to
> > > > volunteer
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to
> > bring
> > > > > > > attention
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m
> kinda
> > > > winging
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I
> had
> > > > hoped I’d
> > > > > > > > speak
> > > > > > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the
> sand
> > > > and work
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would
> > think
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm,
> > but if
> > > > you
> > > > > > > > want me
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that
> > familiar
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one
> > of its
> > > > > > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope
> of
> > what
> > > > > > > needs
> > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of
> my
> > > > > > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…”
> and
> > put
> > > > > > > together
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this
> > > > effort. I
> > > > > > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing
> to
> > give
> > > > it a
> > > > > > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization
> > with a
> > > > paid
> > > > > > > > staff
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors
> and
> > > > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs
> of
> > > > inaction
> > > > > > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > > > >
> > > >
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> >
> >
>
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

In terms of ripple effect, I think we have to be more nuanced. The discussion appears to have three(probably more) underlying subtexts that we aren’t really isolating and addressing separately:
- social impact. (Why we’re doing it)
- business impact (How it impacts the folks who use our stuff)
- level of effort (How much time, money, sweat, etc. it will require to do it)

This still falls short of “what to actually do”, which I imagine would be an iterative process based on asking more questions pertaining to the above 3. 


Some info worth reading about renaming/rebranding. 
https://blog.ongig.com/diversity-and-inclusion/alleged-racist-brands/

@Andrew M. You get the gold star :) 

From the article: 

JEEP CHEROKEE
In March 2021, the new CEO of Stellantis (Jeep’s parent company) announced he is https://www.wsj.com/articles/jeep-owner-stellantis-is-open-to-dropping-cherokee-name-ceo-says-11614799301 to avoid racist product names.
The company is in conversations with the Cherokee Tribe Leader and told the Wall Street Journal:
“At this stage, I don’t know if there is a real problem. But if there is one, well, of course we will solve it.”


Do we have someone who can take this on? 




From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 30, 2022 at 12:56:44
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

>I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might  
have.  

Is it possible that we are also underestimating the positive effects that  
this ripple might have?  

When I go to any tech workplace or browse any open source mailing list it’s  
very obvious our industry has issues with diversity. I’m sure everyone here  
is because of other reasons and not the playing Indian, but how many people  
aren’t here because of the playing Indian and the microaggressions that it  
signals about how this group socializes and interacts?  

Tearing down those walls and barriers and any perceptions of unfriendliness  
is crucial to attracting new contributors with broader life experiences.  

I do understand that the settler state’s system supports ASF’s  
appropriation and there isn’t really a legal trademark or copyright  
recourse available to pursue a complaint there. The separation of scopes  
between different uses of the name might be enough to dissociate the idea  
of an Apache Helicopter with Apache Software as the system is intended, but  
they’re both clearly referencing the original connection of the term to a  
group of people and I don’t think that association can ever be completely  
broken.  

Is ASF going to always have a page up in perpetuity explaining “we don’t  
mean any mascotry here” to future generations? Will it be added as a  
disclaimer within the Apache License? Do all projects have to have a  
mention of it in the readme.md? Apache’s name stretches far and wide across  
computing.  

I’d recommend Philip Deloria’s “Playing Indian” to anyone interested in  
this topic who hasn’t read it yet. He makes a great point in his book that  
these sorts of identity plays are inherently unstable. I think keeping the  
name but with an asterisk would be a pretty literal example of that  
instability.  

Apache the term and its meanings and connections to the actual people have  
been stretched thin, this process is called indigenous erasure. I don’t  
think we’ll ever be able to completely dissociate the term with the people,  
that feels like an even bigger ask than renaming a software foundation.  

Walter  

On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 8:26 AM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:  

> How do we change the original intent?  
>  
> > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is  
> referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.  
>  
> Speaking of creativity:  
>  
> It might be far easier to actively track and nag everyone to change once  
> ASF changes it rather than doing name change.  
> And this is where members can help. We find all the references,  
> (this can be easily automated) and then we split those between  
> members and every member gets to chase whoever wrote  
> about it to update the statement. That would be a true engagement of  
> members for common cause :) and opportunity to build a true community  
> spirit.  
>  
> But on a more serious note. I think a plain statement of the name  
> association  
> and smart PR around it might be enough and it will eventually straighten  
> out.  
> We started a discussion about the decades-long process of ASF changing name  
> and now we come to mabe years long process of slow disappearance of  
> the association as written and mentioned by others (which is far weaker  
> than official ASF statement about the name association).  
>  
> And if combined with active reach-out (divided between members) it can  
> happen (at least for the vast majority of cases) much faster.  
>  
> > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite  
> to  
> determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.  
>  
> Certainly reaching out is a good idea - with explanation and intentions  
> and reasoning, but it is more to the members to see if they are generally  
> ok with such an approach.  
>  
> I think we do not really have to ask for permission or blessing - more  
> informing  
> and explaining our intentions and the fact that such discussions happened  
> and  
> that we - as members agreed to follow this direction due to respect and  
> homage  
> and due to respect to those who raised the concern that association with  
> the  
> Tribe bothers them. I am again referring to the "scope" of trademarks  
> which - if applied to this case broadly - means that no permission is  
> needed from  
> the Tribe.  
>  
> And I think it would be rather assymetrical to ask for sponsorship,  
> Taking into account that no harm was done and no piggy-backing really was  
> used,  
> I think the origin of the discussion is not that we "owe" something to the  
> Tribe  
> but that we should stop the association as it bothers some people.  
> No more no less. no matter if we change the name or not, the history is  
> what it is. And I think no-one here even suggested that "ASF owes money to  
> the Tribe because this and that ...".I think it's not the case to be  
> honest and  
> I would not even raise it as a point at all. If we all collectively  
> agree that "Apache" name in "software business" is fine when disassociated  
> from the Tribe, then there is nothing to sponsor or pay for simply :).  
>  
> J.  
>  
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 2:48 PM Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> >  
> > Creative!  
> >  
> > How do we change the original intent?  
> >  
> > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is  
> > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.  
> >  
> > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite  
> to  
> > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.  
> >  
> > We'd need careful wordsmithing.  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:  
> >  
> > > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change  
> might  
> > > have.  
> > > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.  
> > >  
> > > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.  
> > >  
> > > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the  
> > > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will  
> > > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months  
> > > rather than decades.  
> > >  
> > > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the  
> > > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the  
> > > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of  
> > > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we  
> > > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all  
> > > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between  
> > > the two.  
> > >  
> > > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I  
> > > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and  
> > > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.  
> > > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the  
> > > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is  
> > > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another  
> > > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of  
> > > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are  
> > > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.  
> > >  
> > > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some  
> > > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was  
> > > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually  
> > > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the  
> > > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and  
> > > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those  
> > > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that  
> > > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").  
> > > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would  
> > > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no  
> > > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in  
> > > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the  
> > > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,  
> > > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its  
> > > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.  
> > > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF  
> > > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.  
> > > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the  
> > > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or  
> > > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw  
> > > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is  
> > > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.  
> > >  
> > > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to  
> > > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the  
> > > name Apache with the foundation.  
> > >  
> > > Why don't we simply:  
> > >  
> > > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym  
> > > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals  
> > > there).  
> > > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more  
> > > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around  
> > > proposing and voting for a new logo)  
> > > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the  
> > > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be  
> > > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name  
> > > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for  
> > > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning  
> > >  
> > > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired  
> > > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact  
> > > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the  
> > > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"  
> > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two  
> > > simply?  
> > >  
> > > J.  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > >  
> > > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.  
> > > >  
> > > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal,  
> hypothesis,  
> > > etc. before we can drive a poll. I think coming up with those  
> questions is  
> > > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I  
> > > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert  
> scale).  
> > > >  
> > > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden.  
> DEI  
> > > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now.  
> There  
> > > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily  
> turn  
> > > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global  
> consultancy  
> > > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to  
> socialize the  
> > > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26  
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > >  
> > > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in  
> comparison  
> > > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have  
> their  
> > > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS  
> > > > in favor of something else.  
> > > >  
> > > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would  
> > > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves  
> > > > after native culture.  
> > > >  
> > > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think  
> > > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific  
> > > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on  
> > > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being  
> > > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more  
> > > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change;  
> it  
> > > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be  
> > > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.  
> > > >  
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron  
> > > > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:  
> > > > >  
> > > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here,  
> gunalchéesh  
> > > to  
> > > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out  
> > > more of  
> > > > > a plan.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change  
> the  
> > > name,  
> > > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will  
> take  
> > > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will  
> > > also  
> > > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the  
> > > Washington  
> > > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a  
> > > stopgap  
> > > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name  
> from  
> > > the  
> > > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut  
> also  
> > > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community  
> would  
> > > > > welcome a new name.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to  
> enact  
> > > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the  
> > > membership  
> > > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further  
> effort and  
> > > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups  
> where  
> > > people  
> > > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s  
> > > what  
> > > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone  
> > > else and  
> > > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Walter  
> > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > > >  
> > > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point  
> > > out that  
> > > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the  
> > > perception  
> > > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems.  
> Many  
> > > of the  
> > > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are  
> > > going to be  
> > > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to  
> > > minimize the  
> > > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the  
> > > effort.  
> > > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that  
> are  
> > > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to  
> > > drive it  
> > > > > > by committee?  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06  
> > > > > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Walter,  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't  
> > > particularly  
> > > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership  
> positions  
> > > at  
> > > > > > The  
> > > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including  
> > > > > > * President,  
> > > > > > * Executive Vice President,  
> > > > > > * VP Infra,  
> > > > > > * VP Brand,  
> > > > > > * VP Fundraising,  
> > > > > > * Treasurer,  
> > > > > > * VP Legal,  
> > > > > > * VP Conferences,  
> > > > > > * VP Privacy.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined  
> scopes  
> > > that  
> > > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without  
> > > contract  
> > > > > > negotiations, and added costs.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time  
> while  
> > > also  
> > > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The  
> > > > > > Foundation  
> > > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't  
> know  
> > > how to  
> > > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are  
> > > asking  
> > > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking  
> them  
> > > on,  
> > > > > > or  
> > > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a  
> > > volunteer.  
> > > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right  
> > > name.  
> > > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.  
> > > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships  
> the  
> > > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.  
> > > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The  
> Foundation  
> > > owns,  
> > > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather  
> logo,  
> > > the  
> > > > > > incubator logo, etc.  
> > > > > > * Registering a new website domain.  
> > > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many  
> > > > > > projects.  
> > > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache  
> License  
> > > > > > 2.0",  
> > > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various  
> > > license  
> > > > > > pickers.  
> > > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of  
> > > > > > recognition  
> > > > > > as the old name.  
> > > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example  
> > > there  
> > > > > > has  
> > > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand  
> > > > > > establishing  
> > > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be  
> restarted.  
> > > You'd  
> > > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example,  
> you  
> > > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact  
> names.  
> > > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and  
> only  
> > > use  
> > > > > > the  
> > > > > > new name for new artifacts.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The  
> > > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name  
> would  
> > > > > > fall  
> > > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names,  
> and  
> > > set up  
> > > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences  
> would  
> > > have  
> > > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to  
> > > notify  
> > > > > > all  
> > > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of  
> hours of  
> > > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers  
> who are  
> > > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to  
> respond  
> > > to  
> > > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be  
> impossible  
> > > to  
> > > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names  
> would  
> > > > > > break  
> > > > > > client code.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks  
> are  
> > > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an  
> expectation  
> > > that  
> > > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new  
> domain  
> > > name,  
> > > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of  
> "apache"  
> > > in new  
> > > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.  
> > > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be  
> > > possible. And  
> > > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be  
> > > possible  
> > > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this  
> would  
> > > > > > require  
> > > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing  
> the  
> > > > > > problem,  
> > > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing  
> > > consensus  
> > > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here  
> will  
> > > > > > take  
> > > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will  
> probably  
> > > > > > never  
> > > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from  
> hundreds,  
> > > > > > possibly  
> > > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to  
> convince  
> > > > > > people  
> > > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in  
> it  
> > > for as  
> > > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone  
> is  
> > > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing  
> to  
> > > take  
> > > > > > on  
> > > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of  
> > > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that  
> effort,  
> > > and I  
> > > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you  
> > > willing  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of  
> that,  
> > > your  
> > > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and  
> some  
> > > of  
> > > > > > the  
> > > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I  
> wish it  
> > > > > > weren't so.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Best Regards,  
> > > > > > Myrle Krantz  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>  
> > > wrote:  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This  
> > > would  
> > > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the  
> > > vote  
> > > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using  
> > > STevE  
> > > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where  
> opinions  
> > > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would  
> likely  
> > > be  
> > > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those  
> with  
> > > the  
> > > > > > > most polarized opinions.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Julian  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>  
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41  
> > > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists  
> is  
> > > not a  
> > > > > > > > good idea.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <  
> > > akm@apache.org>  
> > > > > > > wrote:  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > Copying them now.  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com>  
> wrote:  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > @Andrew,  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini  
> > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <  
> dev@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28  
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com>  
> wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew,  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly  
> > > polarizing  
> > > > > > > (and  
> > > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll  
> is a  
> > > > > > dipstick  
> > > > > > > > > > effort  
> > > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and  
> > > tactics.  
> > > > > > > Polling  
> > > > > > > > > > is  
> > > > > > > > > > > more about discovery.  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you  
> don't  
> > > have  
> > > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a  
> definition,  
> > > it  
> > > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or  
> > > against).  
> > > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll  
> to be  
> > > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification,  
> are you  
> > > > > > > looking at  
> > > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,  
> > > setting  
> > > > > > > urgency  
> > > > > > > > > > on  
> > > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic  
> that  
> > > > > > covers  
> > > > > > > > > > almost  
> > > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it  
> > > might be  
> > > > > > > smart  
> > > > > > > > > > for  
> > > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing  
> > > any ad  
> > > > > > hoc  
> > > > > > > > > > outreach.  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in  
> > > activities on  
> > > > > > > this,  
> > > > > > > > > > no.  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with  
> both a  
> > > poll  
> > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > > > > > outreach?  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a  
> lawyer.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board  
> > > members  
> > > > > > > > watch this list.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <  
> dev@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05  
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org  
> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where  
> we  
> > > say  
> > > > > > land  
> > > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the  
> beginning of  
> > > all  
> > > > > > > school  
> > > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the  
> motivation for  
> > > > > > this:  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will  
> > > result in  
> > > > > > an  
> > > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from  
> > > enthusiastic  
> > > > > > > sympathy  
> > > > > > > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe  
> governments  
> > > so  
> > > > > > we  
> > > > > > > can  
> > > > > > > > > > open  
> > > > > > > > > > > a  
> > > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what  
> > > their  
> > > > > > > official  
> > > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather  
> symbol  
> > > is  
> > > > > > > viewed as  
> > > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced  
> with  
> > > > > > > feasibility  
> > > > > > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > > > > > community values.  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Best  
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com>  
> > > wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Christian  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a  
> > > great way  
> > > > > > of  
> > > > > > > > > > > defining  
> > > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid  
> > > > > > confirmation  
> > > > > > > bias,  
> > > > > > > > > > > but I  
> > > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Matt  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something  
> that  
> > > would  
> > > > > > > require  
> > > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to  
> > > fail  
> > > > > > pretty  
> > > > > > > > > > > quickly.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of  
> the  
> > > > > > > Washington  
> > > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from  
> JUnit  
> > > 4 to  
> > > > > > 5.  
> > > > > > > This  
> > > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s  
> > > initial  
> > > > > > > questions.  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change  
> and  
> > > a  
> > > > > > name  
> > > > > > > > > > change  
> > > > > > > > > > > as  
> > > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life  
> > > cycles).  
> > > > > > > Large  
> > > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small  
> companies  
> > > often  
> > > > > > > rebrand  
> > > > > > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit  
> their  
> > > > > > > business/tech  
> > > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,  
> > > materials)  
> > > > > > are  
> > > > > > > > > > > retrofit  
> > > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m  
> > > happy  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > pair/mob  
> > > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are  
> there  
> > > any  
> > > > > > > particular  
> > > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?  
> > > Maybe we  
> > > > > > > can put  
> > > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <  
> > > dev@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07  
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <  
> dev@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For  
> > > example,  
> > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of  
> > > > > > > unchangeable  
> > > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single  
> released  
> > > > > > > artifact,  
> > > > > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of  
> people  
> > > > > > outside  
> > > > > > > of  
> > > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email  
> > > > > > addresses,  
> > > > > > > > > > signing  
> > > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of  
> > > infrastructure  
> > > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate  
> documents,  
> > > > > > > trademarks,  
> > > > > > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places  
> where  
> > > > > > it's  
> > > > > > > easy  
> > > > > > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible  
> in  
> > > tons  
> > > > > > of  
> > > > > > > key  
> > > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even  
> > > considering  
> > > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may  
> or  
> > > may  
> > > > > > not  
> > > > > > > adopt  
> > > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable  
> > > concerns  
> > > > > > I've  
> > > > > > > had  
> > > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working  
> with  
> > > > > > another  
> > > > > > > OSS  
> > > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has  
> > > tons of  
> > > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility  
> issues.  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier  
> > > > > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s  
> > > actually a  
> > > > > > > > > > > spectacular  
> > > > > > > > > > > > idea.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on  
> > > members@,  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > > since  
> > > > > > > > > > (I  
> > > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that  
> proposal.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the  
> poll  
> > > and  
> > > > > > > proposing  
> > > > > > > > > > > it  
> > > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided  
> on the  
> > > > > > > content we  
> > > > > > > > > > > could  
> > > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my  
> first  
> > > idea  
> > > > > > on  
> > > > > > > it.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives  
> me a  
> > > warm  
> > > > > > > feeling,  
> > > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian  
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <  
> > > dev@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <  
> > > dev@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely  
> > > there. I  
> > > > > > echo  
> > > > > > > > > > > Walter’s  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to  
> be  
> > > easy  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer  
> these  
> > > > > > > questions in  
> > > > > > > > > > > > concert:  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the  
> > > rebranding/renaming?  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the  
> > > organization  
> > > > > > > willing  
> > > > > > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > > > participate?  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question  
> is a  
> > > point  
> > > > > > of  
> > > > > > > no  
> > > > > > > > > > > > return. If  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our  
> > > brand,  
> > > > > > it’s  
> > > > > > > > > > going  
> > > > > > > > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in  
> the  
> > > > > > community  
> > > > > > > > > > > first-  
> > > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community  
> > > > > > > (non-binding)  
> > > > > > > > > > vote  
> > > > > > > > > > > is  
> > > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds.  
> But  
> > > based  
> > > > > > on  
> > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain  
> the  
> > > issue  
> > > > > > or  
> > > > > > > > > > > actually  
> > > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who  
> are  
> > > > > > > interested  
> > > > > > > > > > in  
> > > > > > > > > > > > helping.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <  
> > > walter.lists@waltercameron.com>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <  
> > > > > > dev@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <  
> > > dev@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <  
> > > > > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to  
> > > volunteer  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > do?  
> > > > > > > > > > > What  
> > > > > > > > > > > > is  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to  
> bring  
> > > > > > attention  
> > > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > > this  
> > > > > > > > > > > > issue and  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda  
> > > winging  
> > > > > > it  
> > > > > > > but I  
> > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had  
> > > hoped I’d  
> > > > > > > speak  
> > > > > > > > > > up,  
> > > > > > > > > > > > people  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand  
> > > and work  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > undo  
> > > > > > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > > > > harm  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would  
> think  
> > > that  
> > > > > > > might  
> > > > > > > > > > > spur  
> > > > > > > > > > > > effort  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm,  
> but if  
> > > you  
> > > > > > > want me  
> > > > > > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > > > do  
> > > > > > > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that  
> familiar  
> > > > > > with  
> > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > > > details  
> > > > > > > > > > > > of the  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one  
> of its  
> > > > > > > Directors,  
> > > > > > > > > > so  
> > > > > > > > > > > in  
> > > > > > > > > > > > a lot  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of  
> what  
> > > > > > needs  
> > > > > > > to be  
> > > > > > > > > > > > done, but  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my  
> > > > > > rudimentary  
> > > > > > > > > > > technical  
> > > > > > > > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and  
> put  
> > > > > > together  
> > > > > > > a  
> > > > > > > > > > new  
> > > > > > > > > > > > logo or  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this  
> > > effort. I  
> > > > > > > haven’t  
> > > > > > > > > > > > designed a  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to  
> give  
> > > it a  
> > > > > > > try.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization  
> with a  
> > > paid  
> > > > > > > staff  
> > > > > > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > > > > > > goals to  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and  
> > > > > > continue  
> > > > > > > > > > > receiving  
> > > > > > > > > > > > corporate  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of  
> > > inaction  
> > > > > > > outweigh  
> > > > > > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > > > > costs of  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >  
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> > > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:  
> > > > > > > dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
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> > > > > > >  
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> > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:  
> > > dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > >  
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> > > > > > > >  
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>  

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

>I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
have.

Is it possible that we are also underestimating the positive effects that
this ripple might have?

When I go to any tech workplace or browse any open source mailing list it’s
very obvious our industry has issues with diversity. I’m sure everyone here
is because of other reasons and not the playing Indian, but how many people
aren’t here because of the playing Indian and the microaggressions that it
signals about how this group socializes and interacts?

Tearing down those walls and barriers and any perceptions of unfriendliness
is crucial to attracting new contributors with broader life experiences.

I do understand that the settler state’s system supports ASF’s
appropriation and there isn’t really a legal trademark or copyright
recourse available to pursue a complaint there. The separation of scopes
between different uses of the name might be enough to dissociate the idea
of an Apache Helicopter with Apache Software as the system is intended, but
they’re both clearly referencing the original connection of the term to a
group of people and I don’t think that association can ever be completely
broken.

Is ASF going to always have a page up in perpetuity explaining “we don’t
mean any mascotry here” to future generations? Will it be added as a
disclaimer within the Apache License? Do all projects have to have a
mention of it in the readme.md? Apache’s name stretches far and wide across
computing.

I’d recommend Philip Deloria’s “Playing Indian” to anyone interested in
this topic who hasn’t read it yet. He makes a great point in his book that
these sorts of identity plays are inherently unstable. I think keeping the
name but with an asterisk would be a pretty literal example of that
instability.

Apache the term and its meanings and connections to the actual people have
been stretched thin, this process is called indigenous erasure. I don’t
think we’ll ever be able to completely dissociate the term with the people,
that feels like an even bigger ask than renaming a software foundation.

Walter

On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 8:26 AM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:

> How do we change the original intent?
>
> > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
> referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
>
> Speaking of creativity:
>
> It might be far easier to actively track and nag everyone to change once
> ASF changes it rather than doing name change.
> And this is where members can help. We find all the references,
> (this can be easily automated) and then we split those between
> members and every member gets to chase whoever wrote
> about it to update the statement. That would be a true engagement of
> members for common cause :) and opportunity to build a true community
> spirit.
>
> But on a more serious note. I think a plain statement of the name
> association
> and smart PR around it might be enough and it will eventually straighten
> out.
> We started a discussion about the decades-long process of ASF changing name
> and now we come to mabe years long process of slow disappearance of
> the association as written and mentioned by others (which is far weaker
> than official ASF statement about the name association).
>
> And if combined with active reach-out (divided between members) it can
> happen (at least for the vast majority of cases) much faster.
>
> > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite
> to
> determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.
>
> Certainly reaching out is a good idea - with explanation and intentions
> and reasoning, but it is more to the members to see if they are generally
> ok with such an approach.
>
> I think we do not really have to ask for permission or blessing - more
> informing
> and explaining our intentions and the fact that such discussions happened
> and
> that we - as members agreed to follow this direction due to respect and
> homage
> and due to respect to those who raised the concern that association with
> the
> Tribe bothers them. I am again referring to the "scope" of trademarks
> which - if applied to this case broadly - means that no permission is
> needed from
> the Tribe.
>
> And I think it would be rather assymetrical to ask for sponsorship,
> Taking into account that no harm was done and no piggy-backing really was
> used,
> I think the origin of the discussion is not that we "owe" something to the
> Tribe
> but that we should stop the association as it bothers some people.
> No more no less. no matter if we change the name or not, the history is
> what it is. And I think no-one here even suggested that "ASF owes money to
> the Tribe because this and that ...".I think it's not the case to be
> honest and
> I would not even raise it as a point at all. If we all collectively
> agree that "Apache" name in "software business" is fine when disassociated
> from the Tribe, then there is nothing to sponsor or pay for simply :).
>
> J.
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 2:48 PM Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> >
> > Creative!
> >
> > How do we change the original intent?
> >
> > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
> > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
> >
> > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite
> to
> > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.
> >
> > We'd need careful wordsmithing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change
> might
> > > have.
> > > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
> > >
> > > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
> > >
> > > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
> > > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
> > > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
> > > rather than decades.
> > >
> > > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
> > > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
> > > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
> > > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
> > > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
> > > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
> > > the two.
> > >
> > > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
> > > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
> > > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
> > > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
> > > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
> > > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
> > > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
> > > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
> > > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
> > >
> > > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
> > > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
> > > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
> > > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
> > > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
> > > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
> > > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
> > > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
> > > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
> > > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
> > > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
> > > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
> > > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
> > > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
> > > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
> > > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
> > > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
> > > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
> > > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
> > > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
> > > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
> > > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
> > >
> > > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
> > > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
> > > name Apache with the foundation.
> > >
> > > Why don't we simply:
> > >
> > > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
> > > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
> > > there).
> > > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
> > > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
> > > proposing and voting for a new logo)
> > > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
> > > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
> > > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
> > > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
> > > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning
> > >
> > > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
> > > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
> > > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
> > > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
> > > simply?
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> > > >
> > > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal,
> hypothesis,
> > > etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those
> questions is
> > > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> > > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert
> scale).
> > > >
> > > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden.
> DEI
> > > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now.
> There
> > > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily
> turn
> > > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global
> consultancy
> > > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to
> socialize the
> > > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in
> comparison
> > > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have
> their
> > > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
> > > > in favor of something else.
> > > >
> > > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
> > > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> > > > after native culture.
> > > >
> > > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> > > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
> > > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
> > > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
> > > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
> > > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change;
> it
> > > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
> > > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> > > > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here,
> gunalchéesh
> > > to
> > > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out
> > > more of
> > > > > a plan.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change
> the
> > > name,
> > > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will
> take
> > > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will
> > > also
> > > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> > > Washington
> > > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> > > stopgap
> > > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name
> from
> > > the
> > > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut
> also
> > > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community
> would
> > > > > welcome a new name.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to
> enact
> > > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
> > > membership
> > > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further
> effort and
> > > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups
> where
> > > people
> > > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s
> > > what
> > > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone
> > > else and
> > > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point
> > > out that
> > > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the
> > > perception
> > > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems.
> Many
> > > of the
> > > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are
> > > going to be
> > > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
> > > minimize the
> > > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the
> > > effort.
> > > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that
> are
> > > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to
> > > drive it
> > > > > > by committee?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > > > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walter,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
> > > particularly
> > > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership
> positions
> > > at
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > > > > * President,
> > > > > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > > > > * VP Infra,
> > > > > > * VP Brand,
> > > > > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > > > > * Treasurer,
> > > > > > * VP Legal,
> > > > > > * VP Conferences,
> > > > > > * VP Privacy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined
> scopes
> > > that
> > > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
> > > contract
> > > > > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time
> while
> > > also
> > > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > > > > > Foundation
> > > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't
> know
> > > how to
> > > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are
> > > asking
> > > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking
> them
> > > on,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
> > > volunteer.
> > > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right
> > > name.
> > > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships
> the
> > > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The
> Foundation
> > > owns,
> > > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather
> logo,
> > > the
> > > > > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > > > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > > > > > projects.
> > > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache
> License
> > > > > > 2.0",
> > > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various
> > > license
> > > > > > pickers.
> > > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > > > > recognition
> > > > > > as the old name.
> > > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example
> > > there
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > > > > establishing
> > > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be
> restarted.
> > > You'd
> > > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example,
> you
> > > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact
> names.
> > > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and
> only
> > > use
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > new name for new artifacts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name
> would
> > > > > > fall
> > > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names,
> and
> > > set up
> > > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences
> would
> > > have
> > > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to
> > > notify
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of
> hours of
> > > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers
> who are
> > > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to
> respond
> > > to
> > > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be
> impossible
> > > to
> > > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names
> would
> > > > > > break
> > > > > > client code.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks
> are
> > > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an
> expectation
> > > that
> > > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new
> domain
> > > name,
> > > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of
> "apache"
> > > in new
> > > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
> > > possible. And
> > > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be
> > > possible
> > > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this
> would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing
> the
> > > > > > problem,
> > > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing
> > > consensus
> > > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here
> will
> > > > > > take
> > > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will
> probably
> > > > > > never
> > > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from
> hundreds,
> > > > > > possibly
> > > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to
> convince
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in
> it
> > > for as
> > > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone
> is
> > > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing
> to
> > > take
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that
> effort,
> > > and I
> > > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you
> > > willing
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of
> that,
> > > your
> > > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and
> some
> > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I
> wish it
> > > > > > weren't so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > Myrle Krantz
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This
> > > would
> > > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the
> > > vote
> > > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using
> > > STevE
> > > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where
> opinions
> > > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would
> likely
> > > be
> > > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Julian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists
> is
> > > not a
> > > > > > > > good idea.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <
> > > akm@apache.org>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
> > > polarizing
> > > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll
> is a
> > > > > > dipstick
> > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and
> > > tactics.
> > > > > > > Polling
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you
> don't
> > > have
> > > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a
> definition,
> > > it
> > > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
> > > against).
> > > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll
> to be
> > > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification,
> are you
> > > > > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,
> > > setting
> > > > > > > urgency
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic
> that
> > > > > > covers
> > > > > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it
> > > might be
> > > > > > > smart
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing
> > > any ad
> > > > > > hoc
> > > > > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
> > > activities on
> > > > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with
> both a
> > > poll
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a
> lawyer.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
> > > members
> > > > > > > > watch this list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where
> we
> > > say
> > > > > > land
> > > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the
> beginning of
> > > all
> > > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the
> motivation for
> > > > > > this:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will
> > > result in
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
> > > enthusiastic
> > > > > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe
> governments
> > > so
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what
> > > their
> > > > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather
> symbol
> > > is
> > > > > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced
> with
> > > > > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
> > > great way
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > > > > confirmation
> > > > > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something
> that
> > > would
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to
> > > fail
> > > > > > pretty
> > > > > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of
> the
> > > > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from
> JUnit
> > > 4 to
> > > > > > 5.
> > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
> > > initial
> > > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change
> and
> > > a
> > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life
> > > cycles).
> > > > > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small
> companies
> > > often
> > > > > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit
> their
> > > > > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
> > > materials)
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m
> > > happy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are
> there
> > > any
> > > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?
> > > Maybe we
> > > > > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For
> > > example,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > > > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single
> released
> > > > > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of
> people
> > > > > > outside
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > > > > > addresses,
> > > > > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
> > > infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate
> documents,
> > > > > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places
> where
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible
> in
> > > tons
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
> > > considering
> > > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may
> or
> > > may
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
> > > concerns
> > > > > > I've
> > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working
> with
> > > > > > another
> > > > > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has
> > > tons of
> > > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility
> issues.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
> > > actually a
> > > > > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
> > > members@,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that
> proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the
> poll
> > > and
> > > > > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided
> on the
> > > > > > > content we
> > > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my
> first
> > > idea
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives
> me a
> > > warm
> > > > > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely
> > > there. I
> > > > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to
> be
> > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer
> these
> > > > > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the
> > > rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the
> > > organization
> > > > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question
> is a
> > > point
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our
> > > brand,
> > > > > > it’s
> > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in
> the
> > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > > > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds.
> But
> > > based
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain
> the
> > > issue
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who
> are
> > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <
> > > walter.lists@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to
> > > volunteer
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to
> bring
> > > > > > attention
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda
> > > winging
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had
> > > hoped I’d
> > > > > > > speak
> > > > > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand
> > > and work
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would
> think
> > > that
> > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm,
> but if
> > > you
> > > > > > > want me
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that
> familiar
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one
> of its
> > > > > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of
> what
> > > > > > needs
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > > > > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and
> put
> > > > > > together
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this
> > > effort. I
> > > > > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to
> give
> > > it a
> > > > > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization
> with a
> > > paid
> > > > > > > staff
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of
> > > inaction
> > > > > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>]

How do we change the original intent?

> Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.

Speaking of creativity:

It might be far easier to actively track and nag everyone to change once
ASF changes it rather than doing name change.
And this is where members can help. We find all the references,
(this can be easily automated) and then we split those between
members and every member gets to chase whoever wrote
about it to update the statement. That would be a true engagement of
members for common cause :) and opportunity to build a true community
spirit.

But on a more serious note. I think a plain statement of the name association
and smart PR around it might be enough and it will eventually straighten out.
We started a discussion about the decades-long process of ASF changing name
and now we come to mabe years long process of slow disappearance of
the association as written and mentioned by others (which is far weaker
than official ASF statement about the name association).

And if combined with active reach-out (divided between members) it can
happen (at least for the vast majority of cases) much faster.

> This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite to
determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.

Certainly reaching out is a good idea - with explanation and intentions
and reasoning, but it is more to the members to see if they are generally
ok with such an approach.

I think we do not really have to ask for permission or blessing - more informing
and explaining our intentions and the fact that such discussions happened and
that we - as members agreed to follow this direction due to respect and homage
and due to respect to those who raised the concern that association with the
Tribe bothers them. I am again referring to the "scope" of trademarks
which - if applied to this case broadly - means that no permission is
needed from
the Tribe.

And I think it would be rather assymetrical to ask for sponsorship,
Taking into account that no harm was done and no piggy-backing really was used,
I think the origin of the discussion is not that we "owe" something to the Tribe
but that we should stop the association as it bothers some people.
No more no less. no matter if we change the name or not, the history is
what it is. And I think no-one here even suggested that "ASF owes money to
the Tribe because this and that ...".I think it's not the case to be honest and
I would not even raise it as a point at all. If we all collectively
agree that "Apache" name in "software business" is fine when disassociated
from the Tribe, then there is nothing to sponsor or pay for simply :).

J.

On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 2:48 PM Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> Creative!
>
> How do we change the original intent?
>
> Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
> referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
>
> This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite to
> determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.
>
> We'd need careful wordsmithing.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
>
> > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
> > have.
> > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
> >
> > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
> >
> > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
> > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
> > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
> > rather than decades.
> >
> > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
> > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
> > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
> > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
> > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
> > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
> > the two.
> >
> > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
> > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
> > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
> > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
> > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
> > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
> > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
> > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
> > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
> >
> > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
> > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
> > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
> > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
> > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
> > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
> > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
> > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
> > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
> > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
> > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
> > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
> > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
> > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
> > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
> > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
> > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
> > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
> > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
> > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
> > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
> > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
> >
> > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
> > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
> > name Apache with the foundation.
> >
> > Why don't we simply:
> >
> > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
> > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
> > there).
> > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
> > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
> > proposing and voting for a new logo)
> > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
> > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
> > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
> > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
> > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning
> >
> > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
> > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
> > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
> > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
> > simply?
> >
> > J.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> > >
> > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis,
> > etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those questions is
> > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert scale).
> > >
> > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden. DEI
> > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now. There
> > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn
> > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy
> > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize the
> > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
> > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
> > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
> > > in favor of something else.
> > >
> > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
> > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> > > after native culture.
> > >
> > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
> > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
> > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
> > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
> > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
> > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
> > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> > > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh
> > to
> > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out
> > more of
> > > > a plan.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the
> > name,
> > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will
> > also
> > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> > Washington
> > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> > stopgap
> > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from
> > the
> > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut also
> > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> > > > welcome a new name.
> > > >
> > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
> > membership
> > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort and
> > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where
> > people
> > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s
> > what
> > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone
> > else and
> > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> > > >
> > > > Walter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point
> > out that
> > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the
> > perception
> > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many
> > of the
> > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are
> > going to be
> > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
> > minimize the
> > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the
> > effort.
> > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are
> > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to
> > drive it
> > > > > by committee?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter,
> > > > >
> > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
> > particularly
> > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions
> > at
> > > > > The
> > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > > > * President,
> > > > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > > > * VP Infra,
> > > > > * VP Brand,
> > > > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > > > * Treasurer,
> > > > > * VP Legal,
> > > > > * VP Conferences,
> > > > > * VP Privacy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes
> > that
> > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
> > contract
> > > > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > > > >
> > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while
> > also
> > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > > > >
> > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > > > > Foundation
> > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know
> > how to
> > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are
> > asking
> > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them
> > on,
> > > > > or
> > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
> > volunteer.
> > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > > > >
> > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right
> > name.
> > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
> > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation
> > owns,
> > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo,
> > the
> > > > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > > > > projects.
> > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License
> > > > > 2.0",
> > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various
> > license
> > > > > pickers.
> > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > > > recognition
> > > > > as the old name.
> > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example
> > there
> > > > > has
> > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > > > establishing
> > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted.
> > You'd
> > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you
> > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.
> > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only
> > use
> > > > > the
> > > > > new name for new artifacts.
> > > > >
> > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would
> > > > > fall
> > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and
> > set up
> > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would
> > have
> > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to
> > notify
> > > > > all
> > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of
> > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are
> > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond
> > to
> > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible
> > to
> > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would
> > > > > break
> > > > > client code.
> > > > >
> > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation
> > that
> > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain
> > name,
> > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache"
> > in new
> > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
> > possible. And
> > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be
> > possible
> > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > > > > require
> > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > > > > problem,
> > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing
> > consensus
> > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will
> > > > > take
> > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably
> > > > > never
> > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > > > > possibly
> > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > > > > people
> > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it
> > for as
> > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to
> > take
> > > > > on
> > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort,
> > and I
> > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you
> > willing
> > > > > to
> > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that,
> > your
> > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some
> > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it
> > > > > weren't so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > Myrle Krantz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This
> > would
> > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the
> > vote
> > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using
> > STevE
> > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
> > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely
> > be
> > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with
> > the
> > > > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Julian
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is
> > not a
> > > > > > > good idea.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <
> > akm@apache.org>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
> > polarizing
> > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a
> > > > > dipstick
> > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and
> > tactics.
> > > > > > Polling
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't
> > have
> > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition,
> > it
> > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
> > against).
> > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you
> > > > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,
> > setting
> > > > > > urgency
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that
> > > > > covers
> > > > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it
> > might be
> > > > > > smart
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing
> > any ad
> > > > > hoc
> > > > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
> > activities on
> > > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a
> > poll
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
> > members
> > > > > > > watch this list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we
> > say
> > > > > land
> > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of
> > all
> > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for
> > > > > this:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will
> > result in
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
> > enthusiastic
> > > > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments
> > so
> > > > > we
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what
> > their
> > > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol
> > is
> > > > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
> > great way
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > > > confirmation
> > > > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that
> > would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to
> > fail
> > > > > pretty
> > > > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> > > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit
> > 4 to
> > > > > 5.
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
> > initial
> > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and
> > a
> > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life
> > cycles).
> > > > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies
> > often
> > > > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
> > materials)
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m
> > happy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there
> > any
> > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?
> > Maybe we
> > > > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For
> > example,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> > > > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people
> > > > > outside
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > > > > addresses,
> > > > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
> > infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in
> > tons
> > > > > of
> > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
> > considering
> > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or
> > may
> > > > > not
> > > > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
> > concerns
> > > > > I've
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > > > > another
> > > > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has
> > tons of
> > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
> > actually a
> > > > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
> > members@,
> > > > >
> > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll
> > and
> > > > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the
> > > > > > content we
> > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first
> > idea
> > > > > on
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a
> > warm
> > > > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely
> > there. I
> > > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be
> > easy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these
> > > > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the
> > rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the
> > organization
> > > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a
> > point
> > > > > of
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our
> > brand,
> > > > > it’s
> > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But
> > based
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the
> > issue
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <
> > walter.lists@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to
> > volunteer
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > > > > attention
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda
> > winging
> > > > > it
> > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had
> > hoped I’d
> > > > > > speak
> > > > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand
> > and work
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think
> > that
> > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if
> > you
> > > > > > want me
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar
> > > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> > > > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what
> > > > > needs
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > > > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > > > > together
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this
> > effort. I
> > > > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give
> > it a
> > > > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a
> > paid
> > > > > > staff
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of
> > inaction
> > > > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

> Why "others"?
>
> My hot button is when people use the words like "they" and "others".
> The ASF is the set of people who show up to do the work.  As such it
> is constantly growing and shrinking as new people show up and others
> move on to other things.
>
> If you are sincere about being willing to do the work, then you are part
of us.

I apologize for my tone, I have made a deliberate effort in the past to
separate myself from ASF rhetorically because of how uncomfortable I’ve
been with the brand. I’ve heard the terms “Apache developer” and “Apache
people” used when referring to people in this community and as a Tlingit
developer I’m hesitant to assume a Native-themed identity that isn’t my own.

It’s really not the most collaborative attitude and I’ll try to be more
inclusive in my discussions from here on.


> If option 3 is your choice, then I suppose the next step is working with
> members of ASF to determine specific scope of work?

Yeah that sounds good to me. Myrle broke down some steps for us earlier:

> * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.
> * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
> Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,
> including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the
> incubator logo, etc.
> * Registering a new website domain.
> * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
projects.
> * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License
2.0",
> but under a new name.  Getting that new license listed in various license
> pickers.
> * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of recognition
> as the old name.
> * ...all the things I didn't think of.


* Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.

I feel like we’re at this point and progress is maybe being blocked by our
lack of new name suggestions. Does anyone have any ideas for a name? I know
Ed said something earlier about using the term “First”, is there anything
we can do with that?



On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 6:36 PM Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> I don't think Walters use of "others" is intended to pass the buck.
> @Walter, I'm assuming that your intent was to better understand the process
> and scope of "how do I make a change in the ASF"?
>
> I think we agree this is a big task, regardless of avenue.
>
>
> My intent was mostly to gauge/rally interest in a direction that is likely
> to gain the most support and volunteers.
>
> If option 3 is your choice, then I suppose the next step is working with
> members of ASF to determine specific scope of work? It's probably worth
> identifying blockers up front and evaluating those before starting to apply
> elbow grease.
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2022, 18:18 Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 5:49 PM Walter Cameron
> > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > My homework above was all about gathering more data to help others
> make a
> > > decision, but if there’s already an agreement on what needs to be done
> > and
> > > the board or membership is willing make a change without a poll or vote
> > > that’s fine with me, I’m all for getting to the action if change is
> > already
> > > what’s agreed on here. I’m just trying to work with whatever options
> are
> > > available to me.
> >
> > Why "others"?
> >
> > My hot button is when people use the words like "they" and "others".
> > The ASF is the set of people who show up to do the work.  As such it
> > is constantly growing and shrinking as new people show up and others
> > move on to other things.
> >
> > If you are sincere about being willing to do the work, then you are part
> > of us.
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com>]

I don't think Walters use of "others" is intended to pass the buck.
@Walter, I'm assuming that your intent was to better understand the process
and scope of "how do I make a change in the ASF"?

I think we agree this is a big task, regardless of avenue.


My intent was mostly to gauge/rally interest in a direction that is likely
to gain the most support and volunteers.

If option 3 is your choice, then I suppose the next step is working with
members of ASF to determine specific scope of work? It's probably worth
identifying blockers up front and evaluating those before starting to apply
elbow grease.

On Tue, May 3, 2022, 18:18 Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:

> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 5:49 PM Walter Cameron
> <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> >
> > My homework above was all about gathering more data to help others make a
> > decision, but if there’s already an agreement on what needs to be done
> and
> > the board or membership is willing make a change without a poll or vote
> > that’s fine with me, I’m all for getting to the action if change is
> already
> > what’s agreed on here. I’m just trying to work with whatever options are
> > available to me.
>
> Why "others"?
>
> My hot button is when people use the words like "they" and "others".
> The ASF is the set of people who show up to do the work.  As such it
> is constantly growing and shrinking as new people show up and others
> move on to other things.
>
> If you are sincere about being willing to do the work, then you are part
> of us.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>]

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 5:49 PM Walter Cameron
<wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
>
> My homework above was all about gathering more data to help others make a
> decision, but if there’s already an agreement on what needs to be done and
> the board or membership is willing make a change without a poll or vote
> that’s fine with me, I’m all for getting to the action if change is already
> what’s agreed on here. I’m just trying to work with whatever options are
> available to me.

Why "others"?

My hot button is when people use the words like "they" and "others".
The ASF is the set of people who show up to do the work.  As such it
is constantly growing and shrinking as new people show up and others
move on to other things.

If you are sincere about being willing to do the work, then you are part of us.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

Hi Sam, thank you for your prompt reply.


> There is no "they" here.  If this is a topic that is important to you,
> show up.  Do the work.  Don't blame others for not doing your homework
> for you, or for not doing what you, yourself, are not willing to do.


I suppose my attempts are being misunderstood as I am showing up here to do
the work as this topic is important to me. The homework I was trying to
solve is who is Director Fielding referring to in his past statements, and
who are the people being referenced on the `/apache-name` page? It didn’t
seem productive to email Roy privately as the board has been CC’d to this
thread as I understand it and the GitHub history wasn’t illuminating but I
can reach out to the original committer of the page. As part of my homework
I was hoping to get the perspectives of the people in this community who
were around for the history being referenced but if that’s inappropriate
for this venue I can pursue others.


> And, in case you are wondering, I am not a fan of polling
> non-participants.  Particularly if that is being proposed instead of
> doing what actually needs to be done.


My homework above was all about gathering more data to help others make a
decision, but if there’s already an agreement on what needs to be done and
the board or membership is willing make a change without a poll or vote
that’s fine with me, I’m all for getting to the action if change is already
what’s agreed on here. I’m just trying to work with whatever options are
available to me.


> I'll make a prediction: if people actually do show up and do the work
> (and by that I mean along the lines of how Ed Mangini has been
> proposing), the board will approve the results.
>
> But until then, don't ignore Ed's question, namely "Do we have someone
> who can take this on?" and then lament that people aren't answering
> your question.


Maybe I’m unclear as to Ed’s intent, but my understanding of his idea was
to reach out to an Apache nation or organization to facilitate a dialogue.
I didn’t ignore it and instead I replied, pointing out the complexities of
such an endeavor.

I spent my next two emails trying to point out that understanding the harm
of stereotypes isn’t about going out and finding one person who is ok with
something to determine if it’s harmful or not, rather it’s about listening
to people and using your own sense of reason and compassion to understand.

I’m not interested in taking on the work of looking for someone who says
ASF’s mascotry is ok while ignoring everyone past and present who says
otherwise. Is that the only path forward right now? I feel there is a
logical flaw to the endeavor. If I’m misunderstanding something or you have
other suggestions I’m all ears.

Gunalchéesh,
Walter


On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 12:44 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:

> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 4:20 PM Walter Cameron
> <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> >
> > Considering the lack of responses to my questions about the history here,
> > I’m going to assume ASF has ignored past complaints similar to how
> they’ve
> > ignored my own.
>
> There is no "they" here.  If this is a topic that is important to you,
> show up.  Do the work.  Don't blame others for not doing your homework
> for you, or for not doing what you, yourself, are not willing to do.
>
> And, in case you are wondering, I am not a fan of polling
> non-participants.  Particularly if that is being proposed instead of
> doing what actually needs to be done.
>
> I'll make a prediction: if people actually do show up and do the work
> (and by that I mean along the lines of how Ed Mangini has been
> proposing), the board will approve the results.
>
> But until then, don't ignore Ed's question, namely "Do we have someone
> who can take this on?" and then lament that people aren't answering
> your question.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> P.S.  No, I'm not signing up to do this work.  But if people do show
> up and encounter road-blocks, let me know and I'll see what I can do
> to clear the path for you to proceed.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>]

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 4:20 PM Walter Cameron
<wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
>
> Considering the lack of responses to my questions about the history here,
> I’m going to assume ASF has ignored past complaints similar to how they’ve
> ignored my own.

There is no "they" here.  If this is a topic that is important to you,
show up.  Do the work.  Don't blame others for not doing your homework
for you, or for not doing what you, yourself, are not willing to do.

And, in case you are wondering, I am not a fan of polling
non-participants.  Particularly if that is being proposed instead of
doing what actually needs to be done.

I'll make a prediction: if people actually do show up and do the work
(and by that I mean along the lines of how Ed Mangini has been
proposing), the board will approve the results.

But until then, don't ignore Ed's question, namely "Do we have someone
who can take this on?" and then lament that people aren't answering
your question.

- Sam Ruby

P.S.  No, I'm not signing up to do this work.  But if people do show
up and encounter road-blocks, let me know and I'll see what I can do
to clear the path for you to proceed.

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

Considering the lack of responses to my questions about the history here,
I’m going to assume ASF has ignored past complaints similar to how they’ve
ignored my own. I feel like a lot of this discussion has centered around
the idea that the offensiveness of mascotry can be gauged with some kind of
OR gate, that if just one person or organization can be found that is ok
with it, then there is no problem, ignoring everyone else who may be
impacted by the stereotyping.

An example might be the tomahawk chop, it originated at FSU, which gets
special blessing from the Seminole Tribe of Florida (there is also the
Seminole Nation of Oklahoma) to use Native-themed imagery. I know a lot of
Natives myself included who feel the chop is racist regardless of any other
endorsements. The tomahawk chop has spread further to other teams like the
Braves and the Chiefs (teams without any kind of endorsement), and pops up
in other anti-Indigenous expressions at protests and political events.

In a similar fashion I don’t think it can be disputed that Apache webserver
inspired the very ugly appropriation and stereotyping in other web projects
like the Hiawatha webserver and the Tomahawk node.js project.

On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 2:59 AM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
> This is in stark contrast with many other companies and organisations
> which made a lot of internalisation and externalisation of their
> branding and names. As an example - I have been for a while working at
> Snowflake and there are lots and lots and lots of internalisation and
> externalisation of "snow and snowflake" down to the internal use of
> ”fresh snow" when people are hired or "it's snowing in Warsaw" public
> slogan when our company was acquired. The ASF does nothing of that
> whatsoever.

I would argue that ASF does exactly the same in its marketing. For example
the “Trillions and Trillions Served” commercial that’s on the front-page of
apache.org. You’d never know just from watching it that it was filmed at an
Apachecon Europe in Berlin as well as an Apachecon in Vegas. Much of it
appears to take place in a John Oliver-esque void, but the introduction is
very deliberate to use scenery of the desert southwest to set the tone of
the film. There’s no nice accompanying European scenery to show how this is
a global organization, instead there are only sweeping views of stolen
Native American land. It makes a deliberate statement of Americanness.

That’s the problem with using a name like this, what other creative well to
draw from does ASF even have for marketing? As innocent seeming or
respectful as the intents might be, at the end of the day it’s still going
to be redface.

In that same video you’ll see Brian describe “the last days of the Native
American tribe called the Apaches who succumbed to the invasion from the
west” as though these tribes and people no longer exist. From my
perspective as Indigenous person ASF doesn’t appear to have done even a
glancing effort at respecting or honoring the people that they claim to
represent.

The way I see it there are three outcomes people have discussed for how to
move forward, maybe these options could be the seed of a poll or vote?

1). Keep the name and Native-theme. (Status quo)
2). Keep the name but remove the Native-theme. (How?)
3). Remove the name and change the brand entirely.

Most of the arguments in this thread arguing for the status quo revolved
around the idea that ASF is honorably doing its mascotry and that ASF and
Indigenous values line up so completely there are no problems with
identifying as Apache. I obviously disagree with these sentiments, but many
might not.

I don’t believe 2) is even possible, it just seems like just further
can-kicking on 3), but 3) is considered hard and 2) may appear more
approachable but I don’t believe ASF can fully dissociate or erase any
Indigenous connections to the term. As I’ve said before the label for this
is called Indigenous erasure.

As I’m sure you’ve all guessed I’m firmly in camp three. Am I missing any
options here?

On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 9:23 PM Walter Cameron <
walter.lists@waltercameron.com> wrote:

> In the interest of gathering data on the impact of the name beyond my own
> personal experience and understanding, is anyone aware of the details of
> past complaints about the name?
>
> Researching this topic I stumbled across a decade old thread that makes a
> lot of incorrect claims as I understand them about the term Apache but also
> says that people have spoken out before claiming to be Apache
> representatives:
> https://lists.apache.org/thread/9mjrmp1omw5rblt6dklktp1w0pn2p7mp can
> anyone shine any light on the complaints referenced in here?
>
> Also ASF’s page https://www.apache.org/apache-name/ says:
>
> > On occasion, we have been asked about claims about use of the
> > “Apache” name by the Apache Native American communities.
>
> Unfortunately the page doesn’t provide further details. Does anyone have
> any more info about the history referenced on this page or any other
> dialogues that they’d be able to share and add some more data points to
> this discussion?
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

In the interest of gathering data on the impact of the name beyond my own
personal experience and understanding, is anyone aware of the details of
past complaints about the name?

Researching this topic I stumbled across a decade old thread that makes a
lot of incorrect claims as I understand them about the term Apache but also
says that people have spoken out before claiming to be Apache
representatives:
https://lists.apache.org/thread/9mjrmp1omw5rblt6dklktp1w0pn2p7mp can anyone
shine any light on the complaints referenced in here?

Also ASF’s page https://www.apache.org/apache-name/ says:

> On occasion, we have been asked about claims about use of the
> “Apache” name by the Apache Native American communities.

Unfortunately the page doesn’t provide further details. Does anyone have
any more info about the history referenced on this page or any other
dialogues that they’d be able to share and add some more data points to
this discussion?

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

<div></div><div>Yeah. Very much agree with Owen.
<br/>
<br/>I think this is a very different situation than offensive use and
<br/>slogans. Also even if the association was in the minds of those who
<br/>started the ASF, it's missing even among the vast majority of the ASF
<br/>members. We cannot compare the sports teams which are actively
<br/>promoting their names and branding both internally and externally and
<br/>build "business" on using the names with the ASF that does not
<br/>actually do that at all. First - because there is no business to make,
<br/>and more importantly because the ASF simply does not use the Apache
<br/>name for any promotion - neither internalisation nor externalisation
<br/>of the name.
<br/>
<br/>I would say (of course I might not see perspective of all the people)
<br/>that the ripple effect on contributors does not exist, because ...
<br/>despite the official explanation of the origin and the feather - we,
<br/>the committers, contributors, PMC members and ASF members do not
<br/>consider ourselves as "Apache" people. We are members of the ASF which
<br/>does contain Apache in the name but we do not really claim or drive
<br/>any of our behaviours from the Tribe - and none of the ASF community
<br/>efforts have any notion of that. The ONLY loose relation is the
<br/>Feather. And while it might be somewhat difficult for ASF old-timers
<br/>to part with it - but for those who came later it's nothing but an
<br/>icon/logo that could be potentially replaced with another logo without
<br/>much of an impact. Just the fact that when we think (or at last it
<br/>looks like to me) that changing the Feather to something else is easy
<br/>and impact-less, means that we do not even think of ourselves as
<br/>"Apache's" in any way meaningful to the Tribe. And I think, this is
<br/>important that we do not have to even change this "thinking" as part
<br/>of any rebranding - because it is simply not there.
<br/>
<br/>This is in stark contrast with many other companies and organisations
<br/>which made a lot of internalisation and externalisation of their
<br/>branding and names. As an example - I have been for a while working at
<br/>Snowflake and there are lots and lots and lots of internalisation and
<br/>externalisation of "snow and snowflake" down to the internal use of
<br/>"fresh snow" when people are hired or "it's snowing in Warsaw" public
<br/>slogan when our company was acquired. The ASF does nothing of that
<br/>whatsoever.
<br/>
<br/>So really IMHO the Apache in the name of the ASF is just that - name
<br/>without the association.
<br/>
<br/>I seriously doubt a group of reasonable thinking individuals might
<br/>put-off by the fact that we "pretend" to be Apaches when we actually
<br/>don't. And - of course - we cannot please everyone, and there are some
<br/>people who might call it out in the name of political correctness.
<br/>This happens a lot of times nowadays. Both inside and outside people
<br/>might do it. It's inevitable and well - normal and there is nothing
<br/>wrong with that, to be honest. People have concerns, people express
<br/>them, and everyone is different, we have different backgrounds,
<br/>biases, opinions and associations in our heads. And we - as a group of
<br/>reasonable thinking members, should hear and listen to those voices.
<br/>
<br/>But also we should use our best judgment to see if those are real
<br/>problems or something that is really at most a slight annoyance for a
<br/>very small group of people and whether - by using the name we show any
<br/>disrespect or harm or even cut off ourselves from some opportunities
<br/>and people. There are (IMHO) no practical nor even emotional reasons
<br/>applicable to a wider or even quite small group of people in this case
<br/>that would justify the name change. Of course - we are not able to
<br/>satisfy everyone and respond to all individuals feeling differently,
<br/>but we can just do our best to show our respect and make a deliberate,
<br/>thoughtful discussion (like we do now :)) and carefully consider our
<br/>position, weight pros and cons and make a conscious decision as
<br/>members - what we do with those voices.
<br/>
<br/>I personally think (and when/if it comes to any voting that would be
<br/>my vote)  that we do not show any disrespect or make any harm or even
<br/>put some people of if we stay with the Apache name as long as we
<br/>remove the association - which is a great opportunity as well to build
<br/>some engagement and common cause,
<br/>
<br/>Also when it comes to that I would love to be engaged and help in
<br/>making it happen in whatever way I might find myself useful - whatever
<br/>the directions the members choose.
<br/>
<br/>This is a good  cause to spend time on. Showing respect and responding
<br/>(in reasonable scope) to concerns of people who feel bothered by the
<br/>current situation is cool. And a noble thing to do. We've been doing
<br/>it when we removed insensitive names from our code - eagerly - and
<br/>doing that for the ASF cause is really cool.
<br/>
<br/>J.
<br/>
<br/>On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 7:39 AM Owen Rubel &lt;orubel@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; Well you may not need to.
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; School and sports teams change their names because they are offensive and
<br/>&gt; the tribe registers a complaint.
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; In the sense of the Apache foundation, I sincerely donut the tribe will
<br/>&gt; ever register an official complaint because it is a nonprofit that does
<br/>&gt; community outreach and gives away software.
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; They do not put the tribes image in a poor light nor do they use slogans,
<br/>&gt; imagery that put the tribe in a poor light
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; These are all things that would cause the Apache Nation to respond.
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; The Apache Foundation has seemingly been a good steward so unless someone
<br/>&gt; from the Apache Nation provides an official complaint, I would not worry.
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; However... rebranding may be a good suggestion.
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; Still some community outreach may be good so you can know if you even
<br/>&gt; SHOULD start the path of rebranding; it may not even be necessary and you
<br/>&gt; can put it to rest once and for all if they see you as good stewards.,
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; Owen Rubel
<br/>&gt; orubel@gmail.com
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 5:49 AM Ed Mangini &lt;me@emangini.com&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; Creative!
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; How do we change the original intent?
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
<br/>&gt; &gt; referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite to
<br/>&gt; &gt; determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; We'd need careful wordsmithing.
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk &lt;jarek@potiuk.com&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; have.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; rather than decades.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; the two.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; name Apache with the foundation.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Why don't we simply:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; there).
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; proposing and voting for a new logo)
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; simply?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; J.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me &lt;me@emangini.com&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those questions
<br/>&gt; &gt; is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; part of what we&rsquo;re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; agree about multiple options. (That&rsquo;s where I was going w/ a Likert
<br/>&gt; &gt; scale).
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden.
<br/>&gt; &gt; DEI
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now.
<br/>&gt; &gt; There
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I&rsquo;d be happy to socialize
<br/>&gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Matt Sicker &lt;boards@gmail.com&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Reply: dev@community.apache.org &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: dev@community.apache.org &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject:  Re: It&rsquo;s time to change the name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; in favor of something else.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; after native culture.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;walter.lists@waltercameron.com&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalch&eacute;esh
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; more of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a plan.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I agree with everyone here that it&rsquo;s a mountain of work to change the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; name,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; decades to correct. I&rsquo;ll do whatever I can and I&rsquo;m sure others will
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; also
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Washington
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I&rsquo;m not saying a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; stopgap
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut
<br/>&gt; &gt; also
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; welcome a new name.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; membership
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort
<br/>&gt; &gt; and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; volunteers to do the work. I know I&rsquo;ve been in a lot of groups where
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; people
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that&rsquo;s
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; what
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; else and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; maybe ASF&rsquo;s branding is just such a situation.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Walter
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me &lt;me@emangini.com&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I&rsquo;m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; out that
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; if we over-decompose the problem, we&rsquo;re just going to push the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; perception
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; of the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; going to be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; minimize the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; impact of some of those dependencies).
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I&rsquo;m curious why there has to be one single person to &ldquo;drive&rdquo; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; effort.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that
<br/>&gt; &gt; are
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; willing to take on some of the tasks, why can&rsquo;t those tasks be to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; drive it
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; by committee?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Myrle Krantz &lt;myrle@apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Reply: dev@community.apache.org &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: Community &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: It&rsquo;s time to change the name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Walter,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; particularly
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; at
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * President,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Executive Vice President,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * VP Infra,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * VP Brand,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * VP Fundraising,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Treasurer,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * VP Legal,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * VP Conferences,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * VP Privacy.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; that
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; contract
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; negotiations, and added costs.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time
<br/>&gt; &gt; while
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; also
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Foundation
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; how to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; asking
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking
<br/>&gt; &gt; them
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; on,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; or
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; volunteer.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Y'all check me, but I see:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; name.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships
<br/>&gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; owns,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather
<br/>&gt; &gt; logo,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; incubator logo, etc.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Registering a new website domain.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; projects.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache
<br/>&gt; &gt; License
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 2.0",
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; license
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; pickers.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; recognition
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; as the old name.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; * ...all the things I didn't think of.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; there
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; has
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; establishing
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; You'd
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; need to get support from our Chinese members.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; There are dependencies between some of these items. For example,
<br/>&gt; &gt; you
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; should get a new website domain before you can change artifact
<br/>&gt; &gt; names.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; use
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; new name for new artifacts.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name
<br/>&gt; &gt; would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; fall
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; set up
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; have
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; notify
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; all
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours
<br/>&gt; &gt; of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who
<br/>&gt; &gt; are
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; fully complete it, because for example, changing package names
<br/>&gt; &gt; would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; break
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; client code.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; independent of the others and can be taken on without an
<br/>&gt; &gt; expectation
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; that
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; name,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache"
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; in new
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; possible. And
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; possible
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; require
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; problem,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; consensus
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here
<br/>&gt; &gt; will
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; take
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will
<br/>&gt; &gt; probably
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; never
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; possibly
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; people
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; for as
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; take
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; on
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; and I
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; willing
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of
<br/>&gt; &gt; that,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; your
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish
<br/>&gt; &gt; it
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; weren't so.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Best Regards,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Myrle Krantz
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde &lt;jhyde@apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; vote
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; STevE
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where
<br/>&gt; &gt; opinions
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would
<br/>&gt; &gt; likely
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; most polarized opinions.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Julian
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me &lt;me@emangini.com&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Sam Ruby &lt;rubys@intertwingly.net&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Reply: dev@community.apache.org &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: Apache Community Dev &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: It&rsquo;s time to change the name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; not a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; good idea.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; akm@apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Copying them now.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me &lt;me@emangini.com&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; @Andrew,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; How do we engage the board?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Ed Mangini
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; me@emangini.com
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Andrew Musselman &lt;akm@apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Reply: dev@community.apache.org &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: dev@community.apache.org &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: It&rsquo;s time to change the name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me &lt;me@emangini.com&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Andrew,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; polarizing
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; premature). That&rsquo;s not really the intent here. A poll is
<br/>&gt; &gt; a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; dipstick
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; effort
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to check the temperature before we reach strategy and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; tactics.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Polling
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; more about discovery.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you
<br/>&gt; &gt; don't
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; have
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a
<br/>&gt; &gt; definition,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; it
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; against).
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to
<br/>&gt; &gt; be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; useful there needs to be some substance.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I&rsquo;m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are
<br/>&gt; &gt; you
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; looking at
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; setting
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; urgency
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; on
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the efforts (or some combination of both?)
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic
<br/>&gt; &gt; that
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; covers
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; almost
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; might be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; smart
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; for
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; any ad
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; hoc
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; outreach.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Is this something you&rsquo;re willing to do or kick off?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; activities on
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; no.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Is there any reason why we can&rsquo;t move forward with both a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; poll
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; outreach?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a
<br/>&gt; &gt; lawyer.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; members
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; watch this list.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; - Sam Ruby
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Andrew Musselman &lt;akm@apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Reply: dev@community.apache.org &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: dev@community.apache.org &lt;dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Matt Sicker &lt;boards@gmail.com&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: It&rsquo;s time to change the name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; say
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; land
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning
<br/>&gt; &gt; of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; all
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; school
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation
<br/>&gt; &gt; for
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think simply opening this up for a member vote will
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; result in
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; an
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; enthusiastic
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; sympathy
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe
<br/>&gt; &gt; governments
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; so
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; we
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; can
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; open
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; dialog with them directly, and start to understand what
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; their
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; official
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; experience of the ASF branding is?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The plan could include logo redesign if the feather
<br/>&gt; &gt; symbol
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; viewed as
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; feasibility
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; community values.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Best
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Andrew
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me &lt;me@emangini.com&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; @Christian
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; You&rsquo;re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; great way
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; defining
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; footholds. It&rsquo;s going to be hard to craft to avoid
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; confirmation
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; bias,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; but I
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; think it&rsquo;s definitely possible.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; @Matt
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; would
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; require
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; stages. Approaching this &ldquo;Big Bang&rdquo; style is going to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; fail
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; pretty
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; quickly.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I&rsquo;m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of
<br/>&gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Washington
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Redskins -&gt; Commanders effort + the migration from
<br/>&gt; &gt; JUnit
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; 4 to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 5.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; This
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; definitely hits on the &ldquo;strategic&rdquo; aspect of Sam&rsquo;s
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; initial
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; questions.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think we can probably differentiate a brand change
<br/>&gt; &gt; and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; change
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; as
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; separate efforts (or at the very least separate life
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; cycles).
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Large
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; organizations that acquire startups and small companies
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; often
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; rebrand
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; acquired assets and their products to better fit their
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; business/tech
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; materials)
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; are
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; retrofit
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; at a slower burn.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think the first action item is probably a poll. I&rsquo;m
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; happy
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; pair/mob
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; any
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; particular
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; psychometrics we&rsquo;d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; Maybe we
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; can put
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; together a small tiger team to carry it out?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Matt Sicker &lt;boards@gmail.com&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Reply: dev@community.apache.org &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: dev@community.apache.org &lt;dev@community.apache.org
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: It&rsquo;s time to change the name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; example,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; unchangeable
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; places such as Java package names, every single
<br/>&gt; &gt; released
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; artifact,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; software license itself (which is used by tons of
<br/>&gt; &gt; people
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; outside
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; addresses,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; signing
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; infrastructure
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; trademarks,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; surely other areas I'm forgetting.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If we have a name change and only update the places
<br/>&gt; &gt; where
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it's
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; easy
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; tons
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; key
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; considering
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; may
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; adopt
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; concerns
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I've
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; had
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; about a name change, and that's even after working with
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; another
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; OSS
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; project that went through a name change and still has
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; tons of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; references to its old names due to compatibility
<br/>&gt; &gt; issues.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;grobmeier@apache.org&gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Christian,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Were you thinking of an internal poll? That&rsquo;s
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; actually a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; spectacular
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; idea.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; members@,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; since
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (I
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; guess) members would eventually decide on that
<br/>&gt; &gt; proposal.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; How do we go about kicking that off?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; proposing
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on
<br/>&gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; content we
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; could
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Others may have different ideas, but that is my first
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; idea
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; on
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; warm
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; feeling,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; since I didn't think of it as such :)
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Kind regards,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Christian
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Ed Mangini
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; me@emangini.com
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Christian Grobmeier &lt;grobmeier@apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Reply: dev@community.apache.org &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: dev@community.apache.org &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: It&rsquo;s time to change the name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Hello,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; The desire to make the change is definitely
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; there. I
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; echo
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Walter&rsquo;s
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; passion and statements.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; +1
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I also agree w/ Sam that this isn&rsquo;t going to be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; easy
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; accomplish.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; +1
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Perhaps a starting point would be to answer
<br/>&gt; &gt; these
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; questions in
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; concert:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; - what is the LOE to perform the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; rebranding/renaming?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; - are there enough volunteers within the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; organization
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; willing
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; participate?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; - what does the community think?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I want to emphasize that this last question is a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; point
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; no
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; return. If
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; we start creating surveys and asking about our
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; brand,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it&rsquo;s
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; going
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; chum the waters.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; community
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; first-
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; briefly explain the issue and see what the community
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (non-binding)
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; vote
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; - just checking sentiments.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; based
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; on
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; outcome one could decide if its more work to explain
<br/>&gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; issue
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; or
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; actually
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; solve the issue.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Also a quick poll could stir up some people who
<br/>&gt; &gt; are
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; interested
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; in
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; helping.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Cheers,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Christian
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; From: Walter Cameron &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; walter.lists@waltercameron.com&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Reply: dev@community.apache.org &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; dev@community.apache.org
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; To: dev@community.apache.org &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; dev@community.apache.org&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: It&rsquo;s time to change the name
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby &lt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; rubys@intertwingly.net&gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Walter: what are you personally willing to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; volunteer
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; do?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; What
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; is
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; your plan? What resources do you need?
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; attention
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; issue and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the harms it&rsquo;s caused. Beyond that I&rsquo;m kinda
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; winging
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; but I
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; appreciate
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; your eagerness and openness to change. I had
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; hoped I&rsquo;d
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; speak
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; up,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; people
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; would finally pull their heads out of the sand
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; and work
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; undo
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; harm
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; they&rsquo;ve caused.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; ASF&rsquo;s brand violates its own CoC. You would
<br/>&gt; &gt; think
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; that
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; might
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; spur
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; effort
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; for change by those perpetuating the harm, but
<br/>&gt; &gt; if
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; you
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; want me
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; do
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; work I&rsquo;ll do whatever I can. I&rsquo;m not that
<br/>&gt; &gt; familiar
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; with
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; details
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; organization, surely not as familiar as one of
<br/>&gt; &gt; its
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Directors,
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; so
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; in
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a lot
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; of ways I don&rsquo;t fully understand the scope of
<br/>&gt; &gt; what
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; needs
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to be
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; done, but
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I&rsquo;m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; rudimentary
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; technical
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; design skills to run a &ldquo;Find &amp; Replace&hellip;&rdquo; and put
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; together
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; new
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; logo or
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; whatever you think would be helpful in this
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; effort. I
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; haven&rsquo;t
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; designed a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; logo in probably 15 years but I&rsquo;m willing to
<br/>&gt; &gt; give
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; it a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; try.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I would have assumed that an organization with a
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; paid
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; staff
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; goals to
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; increase the diversity of its contributors and
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; continue
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; receiving
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; corporate
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; donations would understand that the costs of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; inaction
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; outweigh
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; costs of
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; action here.
<br/>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>]

Yeah. Very much agree with Owen.

I think this is a very different situation than offensive use and
slogans. Also even if the association was in the minds of those who
started the ASF, it's missing even among the vast majority of the ASF
members. We cannot compare the sports teams which are actively
promoting their names and branding both internally and externally and
build "business" on using the names with the ASF that does not
actually do that at all. First - because there is no business to make,
and more importantly because the ASF simply does not use the Apache
name for any promotion - neither internalisation nor externalisation
of the name.

I would say (of course I might not see perspective of all the people)
that the ripple effect on contributors does not exist, because ...
despite the official explanation of the origin and the feather - we,
the committers, contributors, PMC members and ASF members do not
consider ourselves as "Apache" people. We are members of the ASF which
does contain Apache in the name but we do not really claim or drive
any of our behaviours from the Tribe - and none of the ASF community
efforts have any notion of that. The ONLY loose relation is the
Feather. And while it might be somewhat difficult for ASF old-timers
to part with it - but for those who came later it's nothing but an
icon/logo that could be potentially replaced with another logo without
much of an impact. Just the fact that when we think (or at last it
looks like to me) that changing the Feather to something else is easy
and impact-less, means that we do not even think of ourselves as
"Apache's" in any way meaningful to the Tribe. And I think, this is
important that we do not have to even change this "thinking" as part
of any rebranding - because it is simply not there.

This is in stark contrast with many other companies and organisations
which made a lot of internalisation and externalisation of their
branding and names. As an example - I have been for a while working at
Snowflake and there are lots and lots and lots of internalisation and
externalisation of "snow and snowflake" down to the internal use of
"fresh snow" when people are hired or "it's snowing in Warsaw" public
slogan when our company was acquired. The ASF does nothing of that
whatsoever.

So really IMHO the Apache in the name of the ASF is just that - name
without the association.

I seriously doubt a group of reasonable thinking individuals might
put-off by the fact that we "pretend" to be Apaches when we actually
don't. And - of course - we cannot please everyone, and there are some
people who might call it out in the name of political correctness.
This happens a lot of times nowadays. Both inside and outside people
might do it. It's inevitable and well - normal and there is nothing
wrong with that, to be honest. People have concerns, people express
them, and everyone is different, we have different backgrounds,
biases, opinions and associations in our heads. And we - as a group of
reasonable thinking members, should hear and listen to those voices.

But also we should use our best judgment to see if those are real
problems or something that is really at most a slight annoyance for a
very small group of people and whether - by using the name we show any
disrespect or harm or even cut off ourselves from some opportunities
and people. There are (IMHO) no practical nor even emotional reasons
applicable to a wider or even quite small group of people in this case
that would justify the name change. Of course - we are not able to
satisfy everyone and respond to all individuals feeling differently,
but we can just do our best to show our respect and make a deliberate,
thoughtful discussion (like we do now :)) and carefully consider our
position, weight pros and cons and make a conscious decision as
members - what we do with those voices.

I personally think (and when/if it comes to any voting that would be
my vote)  that we do not show any disrespect or make any harm or even
put some people of if we stay with the Apache name as long as we
remove the association - which is a great opportunity as well to build
some engagement and common cause,

Also when it comes to that I would love to be engaged and help in
making it happen in whatever way I might find myself useful - whatever
the directions the members choose.

This is a good  cause to spend time on. Showing respect and responding
(in reasonable scope) to concerns of people who feel bothered by the
current situation is cool. And a noble thing to do. We've been doing
it when we removed insensitive names from our code - eagerly - and
doing that for the ASF cause is really cool.

J.

On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 7:39 AM Owen Rubel <or...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well you may not need to.
>
> School and sports teams change their names because they are offensive and
> the tribe registers a complaint.
>
> In the sense of the Apache foundation, I sincerely donut the tribe will
> ever register an official complaint because it is a nonprofit that does
> community outreach and gives away software.
>
> They do not put the tribes image in a poor light nor do they use slogans,
> imagery that put the tribe in a poor light
>
> These are all things that would cause the Apache Nation to respond.
>
> The Apache Foundation has seemingly been a good steward so unless someone
> from the Apache Nation provides an official complaint, I would not worry.
>
> However... rebranding may be a good suggestion.
>
> Still some community outreach may be good so you can know if you even
> SHOULD start the path of rebranding; it may not even be necessary and you
> can put it to rest once and for all if they see you as good stewards.,
>
> Owen Rubel
> orubel@gmail.com
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 5:49 AM Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> > Creative!
> >
> > How do we change the original intent?
> >
> > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
> > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
> >
> > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite to
> > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.
> >
> > We'd need careful wordsmithing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
> > > have.
> > > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
> > >
> > > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
> > >
> > > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
> > > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
> > > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
> > > rather than decades.
> > >
> > > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
> > > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
> > > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
> > > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
> > > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
> > > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
> > > the two.
> > >
> > > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
> > > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
> > > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
> > > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
> > > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
> > > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
> > > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
> > > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
> > > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
> > >
> > > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
> > > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
> > > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
> > > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
> > > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
> > > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
> > > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
> > > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
> > > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
> > > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
> > > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
> > > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
> > > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
> > > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
> > > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
> > > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
> > > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
> > > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
> > > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
> > > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
> > > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
> > > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
> > >
> > > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
> > > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
> > > name Apache with the foundation.
> > >
> > > Why don't we simply:
> > >
> > > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
> > > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
> > > there).
> > > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
> > > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
> > > proposing and voting for a new logo)
> > > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
> > > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
> > > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
> > > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
> > > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning
> > >
> > > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
> > > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
> > > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
> > > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
> > > simply?
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> > > >
> > > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis,
> > > etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those questions
> > is
> > > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> > > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert
> > scale).
> > > >
> > > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden.
> > DEI
> > > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now.
> > There
> > > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn
> > > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy
> > > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize
> > the
> > > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
> > > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
> > > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
> > > > in favor of something else.
> > > >
> > > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
> > > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> > > > after native culture.
> > > >
> > > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> > > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
> > > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
> > > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
> > > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
> > > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
> > > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
> > > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> > > > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh
> > > to
> > > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out
> > > more of
> > > > > a plan.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the
> > > name,
> > > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> > > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will
> > > also
> > > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> > > Washington
> > > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> > > stopgap
> > > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from
> > > the
> > > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut
> > also
> > > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> > > > > welcome a new name.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> > > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
> > > membership
> > > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort
> > and
> > > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where
> > > people
> > > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s
> > > what
> > > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone
> > > else and
> > > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point
> > > out that
> > > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the
> > > perception
> > > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many
> > > of the
> > > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are
> > > going to be
> > > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
> > > minimize the
> > > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the
> > > effort.
> > > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that
> > are
> > > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to
> > > drive it
> > > > > > by committee?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > > > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walter,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
> > > particularly
> > > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions
> > > at
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > > > > * President,
> > > > > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > > > > * VP Infra,
> > > > > > * VP Brand,
> > > > > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > > > > * Treasurer,
> > > > > > * VP Legal,
> > > > > > * VP Conferences,
> > > > > > * VP Privacy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes
> > > that
> > > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
> > > contract
> > > > > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time
> > while
> > > also
> > > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > > > > > Foundation
> > > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know
> > > how to
> > > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are
> > > asking
> > > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking
> > them
> > > on,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
> > > volunteer.
> > > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right
> > > name.
> > > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships
> > the
> > > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation
> > > owns,
> > > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather
> > logo,
> > > the
> > > > > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > > > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > > > > > projects.
> > > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache
> > License
> > > > > > 2.0",
> > > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various
> > > license
> > > > > > pickers.
> > > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > > > > recognition
> > > > > > as the old name.
> > > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example
> > > there
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > > > > establishing
> > > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted.
> > > You'd
> > > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example,
> > you
> > > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact
> > names.
> > > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only
> > > use
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > new name for new artifacts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name
> > would
> > > > > > fall
> > > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and
> > > set up
> > > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would
> > > have
> > > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to
> > > notify
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours
> > of
> > > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who
> > are
> > > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond
> > > to
> > > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible
> > > to
> > > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names
> > would
> > > > > > break
> > > > > > client code.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an
> > expectation
> > > that
> > > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain
> > > name,
> > > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache"
> > > in new
> > > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
> > > possible. And
> > > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be
> > > possible
> > > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > > > > > problem,
> > > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing
> > > consensus
> > > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here
> > will
> > > > > > take
> > > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will
> > probably
> > > > > > never
> > > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > > > > > possibly
> > > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it
> > > for as
> > > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to
> > > take
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort,
> > > and I
> > > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you
> > > willing
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of
> > that,
> > > your
> > > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some
> > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish
> > it
> > > > > > weren't so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > Myrle Krantz
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This
> > > would
> > > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the
> > > vote
> > > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using
> > > STevE
> > > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where
> > opinions
> > > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would
> > likely
> > > be
> > > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with
> > > the
> > > > > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Julian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is
> > > not a
> > > > > > > > good idea.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <
> > > akm@apache.org>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
> > > polarizing
> > > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is
> > a
> > > > > > dipstick
> > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and
> > > tactics.
> > > > > > > Polling
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you
> > don't
> > > have
> > > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a
> > definition,
> > > it
> > > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
> > > against).
> > > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to
> > be
> > > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are
> > you
> > > > > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,
> > > setting
> > > > > > > urgency
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic
> > that
> > > > > > covers
> > > > > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it
> > > might be
> > > > > > > smart
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing
> > > any ad
> > > > > > hoc
> > > > > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
> > > activities on
> > > > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a
> > > poll
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a
> > lawyer.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
> > > members
> > > > > > > > watch this list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we
> > > say
> > > > > > land
> > > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning
> > of
> > > all
> > > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation
> > for
> > > > > > this:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will
> > > result in
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
> > > enthusiastic
> > > > > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe
> > governments
> > > so
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what
> > > their
> > > > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather
> > symbol
> > > is
> > > > > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > > > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
> > > great way
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > > > > confirmation
> > > > > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that
> > > would
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to
> > > fail
> > > > > > pretty
> > > > > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of
> > the
> > > > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from
> > JUnit
> > > 4 to
> > > > > > 5.
> > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
> > > initial
> > > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change
> > and
> > > a
> > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life
> > > cycles).
> > > > > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies
> > > often
> > > > > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > > > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
> > > materials)
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m
> > > happy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there
> > > any
> > > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?
> > > Maybe we
> > > > > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For
> > > example,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > > > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single
> > released
> > > > > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of
> > people
> > > > > > outside
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > > > > > addresses,
> > > > > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
> > > infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > > > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places
> > where
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in
> > > tons
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
> > > considering
> > > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or
> > > may
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
> > > concerns
> > > > > > I've
> > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > > > > > another
> > > > > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has
> > > tons of
> > > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility
> > issues.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
> > > actually a
> > > > > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
> > > members@,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that
> > proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll
> > > and
> > > > > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on
> > the
> > > > > > > content we
> > > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first
> > > idea
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a
> > > warm
> > > > > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely
> > > there. I
> > > > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be
> > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer
> > these
> > > > > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the
> > > rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the
> > > organization
> > > > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a
> > > point
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our
> > > brand,
> > > > > > it’s
> > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > > > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But
> > > based
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain
> > the
> > > issue
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who
> > are
> > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <
> > > walter.lists@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to
> > > volunteer
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > > > > > attention
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda
> > > winging
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had
> > > hoped I’d
> > > > > > > speak
> > > > > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand
> > > and work
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would
> > think
> > > that
> > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but
> > if
> > > you
> > > > > > > want me
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that
> > familiar
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of
> > its
> > > > > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of
> > what
> > > > > > needs
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > > > > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > > > > > together
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this
> > > effort. I
> > > > > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to
> > give
> > > it a
> > > > > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a
> > > paid
> > > > > > > staff
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of
> > > inaction
> > > > > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > > >
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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com>]

@Owen

That's not true with regards to complaints driving change.

A quick review of the history shows that initial commercial changes (e.g.
Washington Commanders) were mostly complaint driven, however community
changes were driven mostly by proxy as proactive efforts.

I think we need to be careful about making broad assumptions about what
tribes, partners or members would do before actually collecting that data.

Walter's initial statement is a proactive effort. This is very much in line
with "reading the room" rather than waiting to be told. To be fair, we
haven't even ascertained the impact of either. I've been reading up on the
Jeep scenario, and they did a substantial amount of research prior to
deciding that they should do research. (I.e. could they absorb the negative
impact).

The fact that we are a free software foundation dilutes revenue impact, but
we still have a footprint to consider (of which could be a polarizing
tangential discussion based on industry questions right now).


It might be worth looking at other OSS bodies in terms of DEI. (I'll dig in
to this in my free time today).




On Sun, May 1, 2022, 01:39 Owen Rubel <or...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well you may not need to.
>
> School and sports teams change their names because they are offensive and
> the tribe registers a complaint.
>
> In the sense of the Apache foundation, I sincerely donut the tribe will
> ever register an official complaint because it is a nonprofit that does
> community outreach and gives away software.
>
> They do not put the tribes image in a poor light nor do they use slogans,
> imagery that put the tribe in a poor light
>
> These are all things that would cause the Apache Nation to respond.
>
> The Apache Foundation has seemingly been a good steward so unless someone
> from the Apache Nation provides an official complaint, I would not worry.
>
> However... rebranding may be a good suggestion.
>
> Still some community outreach may be good so you can know if you even
> SHOULD start the path of rebranding; it may not even be necessary and you
> can put it to rest once and for all if they see you as good stewards.,
>
> Owen Rubel
> orubel@gmail.com
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 5:49 AM Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> > Creative!
> >
> > How do we change the original intent?
> >
> > Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
> > referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
> >
> > This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite
> to
> > determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.
> >
> > We'd need careful wordsmithing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change
> might
> > > have.
> > > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
> > >
> > > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
> > >
> > > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
> > > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
> > > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
> > > rather than decades.
> > >
> > > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
> > > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
> > > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
> > > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
> > > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
> > > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
> > > the two.
> > >
> > > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
> > > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
> > > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
> > > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
> > > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
> > > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
> > > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
> > > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
> > > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
> > >
> > > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
> > > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
> > > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
> > > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
> > > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
> > > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
> > > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
> > > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
> > > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
> > > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
> > > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
> > > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
> > > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
> > > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
> > > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
> > > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
> > > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
> > > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
> > > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
> > > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
> > > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
> > > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
> > >
> > > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
> > > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
> > > name Apache with the foundation.
> > >
> > > Why don't we simply:
> > >
> > > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
> > > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
> > > there).
> > > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
> > > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
> > > proposing and voting for a new logo)
> > > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
> > > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
> > > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
> > > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
> > > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning
> > >
> > > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
> > > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
> > > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
> > > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
> > > simply?
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> > > >
> > > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal,
> hypothesis,
> > > etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those
> questions
> > is
> > > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> > > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert
> > scale).
> > > >
> > > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden.
> > DEI
> > > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now.
> > There
> > > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily
> turn
> > > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global
> consultancy
> > > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize
> > the
> > > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in
> comparison
> > > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have
> their
> > > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
> > > > in favor of something else.
> > > >
> > > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
> > > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> > > > after native culture.
> > > >
> > > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> > > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
> > > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
> > > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
> > > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
> > > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change;
> it
> > > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
> > > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> > > > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here,
> gunalchéesh
> > > to
> > > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out
> > > more of
> > > > > a plan.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change
> the
> > > name,
> > > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will
> take
> > > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will
> > > also
> > > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> > > Washington
> > > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> > > stopgap
> > > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name
> from
> > > the
> > > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut
> > also
> > > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community
> would
> > > > > welcome a new name.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to
> enact
> > > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
> > > membership
> > > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort
> > and
> > > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups
> where
> > > people
> > > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s
> > > what
> > > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone
> > > else and
> > > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point
> > > out that
> > > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the
> > > perception
> > > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems.
> Many
> > > of the
> > > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are
> > > going to be
> > > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
> > > minimize the
> > > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the
> > > effort.
> > > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that
> > are
> > > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to
> > > drive it
> > > > > > by committee?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > > > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walter,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
> > > particularly
> > > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership
> positions
> > > at
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > > > > * President,
> > > > > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > > > > * VP Infra,
> > > > > > * VP Brand,
> > > > > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > > > > * Treasurer,
> > > > > > * VP Legal,
> > > > > > * VP Conferences,
> > > > > > * VP Privacy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined
> scopes
> > > that
> > > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
> > > contract
> > > > > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time
> > while
> > > also
> > > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > > > > > Foundation
> > > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't
> know
> > > how to
> > > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are
> > > asking
> > > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking
> > them
> > > on,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
> > > volunteer.
> > > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right
> > > name.
> > > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships
> > the
> > > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The
> Foundation
> > > owns,
> > > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather
> > logo,
> > > the
> > > > > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > > > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > > > > > projects.
> > > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache
> > License
> > > > > > 2.0",
> > > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various
> > > license
> > > > > > pickers.
> > > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > > > > recognition
> > > > > > as the old name.
> > > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example
> > > there
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > > > > establishing
> > > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be
> restarted.
> > > You'd
> > > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example,
> > you
> > > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact
> > names.
> > > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and
> only
> > > use
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > new name for new artifacts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name
> > would
> > > > > > fall
> > > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names,
> and
> > > set up
> > > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences
> would
> > > have
> > > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to
> > > notify
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours
> > of
> > > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who
> > are
> > > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to
> respond
> > > to
> > > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be
> impossible
> > > to
> > > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names
> > would
> > > > > > break
> > > > > > client code.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks
> are
> > > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an
> > expectation
> > > that
> > > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new
> domain
> > > name,
> > > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of
> "apache"
> > > in new
> > > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
> > > possible. And
> > > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be
> > > possible
> > > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this
> would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing
> the
> > > > > > problem,
> > > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing
> > > consensus
> > > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here
> > will
> > > > > > take
> > > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will
> > probably
> > > > > > never
> > > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from
> hundreds,
> > > > > > possibly
> > > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to
> convince
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in
> it
> > > for as
> > > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone
> is
> > > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing
> to
> > > take
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that
> effort,
> > > and I
> > > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you
> > > willing
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of
> > that,
> > > your
> > > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and
> some
> > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I
> wish
> > it
> > > > > > weren't so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > Myrle Krantz
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This
> > > would
> > > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the
> > > vote
> > > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using
> > > STevE
> > > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where
> > opinions
> > > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would
> > likely
> > > be
> > > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Julian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists
> is
> > > not a
> > > > > > > > good idea.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <
> > > akm@apache.org>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
> > > polarizing
> > > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll
> is
> > a
> > > > > > dipstick
> > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and
> > > tactics.
> > > > > > > Polling
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you
> > don't
> > > have
> > > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a
> > definition,
> > > it
> > > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
> > > against).
> > > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll
> to
> > be
> > > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are
> > you
> > > > > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,
> > > setting
> > > > > > > urgency
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic
> > that
> > > > > > covers
> > > > > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it
> > > might be
> > > > > > > smart
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing
> > > any ad
> > > > > > hoc
> > > > > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
> > > activities on
> > > > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with
> both a
> > > poll
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a
> > lawyer.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
> > > members
> > > > > > > > watch this list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where
> we
> > > say
> > > > > > land
> > > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning
> > of
> > > all
> > > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation
> > for
> > > > > > this:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will
> > > result in
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
> > > enthusiastic
> > > > > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe
> > governments
> > > so
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what
> > > their
> > > > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather
> > symbol
> > > is
> > > > > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced
> with
> > > > > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
> > > great way
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > > > > confirmation
> > > > > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something
> that
> > > would
> > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to
> > > fail
> > > > > > pretty
> > > > > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of
> > the
> > > > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from
> > JUnit
> > > 4 to
> > > > > > 5.
> > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
> > > initial
> > > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change
> > and
> > > a
> > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life
> > > cycles).
> > > > > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small
> companies
> > > often
> > > > > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit
> their
> > > > > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
> > > materials)
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m
> > > happy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are
> there
> > > any
> > > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?
> > > Maybe we
> > > > > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For
> > > example,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > > > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single
> > released
> > > > > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of
> > people
> > > > > > outside
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > > > > > addresses,
> > > > > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
> > > infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate
> documents,
> > > > > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places
> > where
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible
> in
> > > tons
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
> > > considering
> > > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may
> or
> > > may
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
> > > concerns
> > > > > > I've
> > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working
> with
> > > > > > another
> > > > > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has
> > > tons of
> > > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility
> > issues.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
> > > actually a
> > > > > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
> > > members@,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that
> > proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the
> poll
> > > and
> > > > > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on
> > the
> > > > > > > content we
> > > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my
> first
> > > idea
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives
> me a
> > > warm
> > > > > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely
> > > there. I
> > > > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to
> be
> > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer
> > these
> > > > > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the
> > > rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the
> > > organization
> > > > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question
> is a
> > > point
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our
> > > brand,
> > > > > > it’s
> > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in
> the
> > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > > > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds.
> But
> > > based
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain
> > the
> > > issue
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who
> > are
> > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <
> > > walter.lists@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to
> > > volunteer
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to
> bring
> > > > > > attention
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda
> > > winging
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had
> > > hoped I’d
> > > > > > > speak
> > > > > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand
> > > and work
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would
> > think
> > > that
> > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but
> > if
> > > you
> > > > > > > want me
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that
> > familiar
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of
> > its
> > > > > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of
> > what
> > > > > > needs
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > > > > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and
> put
> > > > > > together
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this
> > > effort. I
> > > > > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to
> > give
> > > it a
> > > > > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization
> with a
> > > paid
> > > > > > > staff
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of
> > > inaction
> > > > > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Owen Rubel <or...@gmail.com>]

Well you may not need to.

School and sports teams change their names because they are offensive and
the tribe registers a complaint.

In the sense of the Apache foundation, I sincerely donut the tribe will
ever register an official complaint because it is a nonprofit that does
community outreach and gives away software.

They do not put the tribes image in a poor light nor do they use slogans,
imagery that put the tribe in a poor light

These are all things that would cause the Apache Nation to respond.

The Apache Foundation has seemingly been a good steward so unless someone
from the Apache Nation provides an official complaint, I would not worry.

However... rebranding may be a good suggestion.

Still some community outreach may be good so you can know if you even
SHOULD start the path of rebranding; it may not even be necessary and you
can put it to rest once and for all if they see you as good stewards.,

Owen Rubel
orubel@gmail.com


On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 5:49 AM Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> Creative!
>
> How do we change the original intent?
>
> Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
> referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.
>
> This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite to
> determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.
>
> We'd need careful wordsmithing.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
>
> > I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
> > have.
> > I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
> >
> > However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
> >
> > Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
> > Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
> > be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
> > rather than decades.
> >
> > For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
> > "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
> > Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
> > the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
> > do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
> > practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
> > the two.
> >
> > I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
> > understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
> > "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
> > So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
> > foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
> > nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
> > "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
> > course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
> > simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
> >
> > While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
> > qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
> > a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
> > "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
> > software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
> > never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
> > qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
> > bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
> > I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
> > somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
> > piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
> > the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
> > minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
> > you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
> > position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
> > In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
> > could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
> > Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
> > "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
> > abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
> > back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
> > not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
> >
> > Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
> > simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
> > name Apache with the foundation.
> >
> > Why don't we simply:
> >
> > * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
> > that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
> > there).
> > * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
> > abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
> > proposing and voting for a new logo)
> > * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
> > Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
> > immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
> > * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
> > the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning
> >
> > Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
> > of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
> > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
> > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
> > simply?
> >
> > J.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> > >
> > > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis,
> > etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those questions
> is
> > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert
> scale).
> > >
> > > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden.
> DEI
> > efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now.
> There
> > are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn
> > into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy
> > whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize
> the
> > effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
> > > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
> > > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
> > > in favor of something else.
> > >
> > > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
> > > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> > > after native culture.
> > >
> > > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> > > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
> > > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
> > > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
> > > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
> > > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
> > > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
> > > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> > > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh
> > to
> > > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out
> > more of
> > > > a plan.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the
> > name,
> > > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> > > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will
> > also
> > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> > Washington
> > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> > stopgap
> > > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from
> > the
> > > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut
> also
> > > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> > > > welcome a new name.
> > > >
> > > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> > > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
> > membership
> > > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort
> and
> > > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where
> > people
> > > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s
> > what
> > > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone
> > else and
> > > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> > > >
> > > > Walter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point
> > out that
> > > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the
> > perception
> > > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many
> > of the
> > > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are
> > going to be
> > > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
> > minimize the
> > > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the
> > effort.
> > > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that
> are
> > > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to
> > drive it
> > > > > by committee?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter,
> > > > >
> > > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
> > particularly
> > > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions
> > at
> > > > > The
> > > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > > > * President,
> > > > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > > > * VP Infra,
> > > > > * VP Brand,
> > > > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > > > * Treasurer,
> > > > > * VP Legal,
> > > > > * VP Conferences,
> > > > > * VP Privacy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes
> > that
> > > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
> > contract
> > > > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > > > >
> > > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time
> while
> > also
> > > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > > > >
> > > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > > > > Foundation
> > > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know
> > how to
> > > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are
> > asking
> > > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking
> them
> > on,
> > > > > or
> > > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
> > volunteer.
> > > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > > > >
> > > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right
> > name.
> > > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships
> the
> > > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation
> > owns,
> > > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather
> logo,
> > the
> > > > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > > > > projects.
> > > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache
> License
> > > > > 2.0",
> > > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various
> > license
> > > > > pickers.
> > > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > > > recognition
> > > > > as the old name.
> > > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example
> > there
> > > > > has
> > > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > > > establishing
> > > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted.
> > You'd
> > > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example,
> you
> > > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact
> names.
> > > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only
> > use
> > > > > the
> > > > > new name for new artifacts.
> > > > >
> > > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name
> would
> > > > > fall
> > > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and
> > set up
> > > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would
> > have
> > > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to
> > notify
> > > > > all
> > > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours
> of
> > > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who
> are
> > > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond
> > to
> > > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible
> > to
> > > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names
> would
> > > > > break
> > > > > client code.
> > > > >
> > > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an
> expectation
> > that
> > > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain
> > name,
> > > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache"
> > in new
> > > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
> > possible. And
> > > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be
> > possible
> > > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > > > > require
> > > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > > > > problem,
> > > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing
> > consensus
> > > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here
> will
> > > > > take
> > > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will
> probably
> > > > > never
> > > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > > > > possibly
> > > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > > > > people
> > > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it
> > for as
> > > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to
> > take
> > > > > on
> > > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort,
> > and I
> > > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you
> > willing
> > > > > to
> > > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of
> that,
> > your
> > > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some
> > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish
> it
> > > > > weren't so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > Myrle Krantz
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This
> > would
> > > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the
> > vote
> > > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using
> > STevE
> > > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where
> opinions
> > > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would
> likely
> > be
> > > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with
> > the
> > > > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Julian
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is
> > not a
> > > > > > > good idea.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <
> > akm@apache.org>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
> > polarizing
> > > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is
> a
> > > > > dipstick
> > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and
> > tactics.
> > > > > > Polling
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you
> don't
> > have
> > > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a
> definition,
> > it
> > > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
> > against).
> > > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to
> be
> > > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are
> you
> > > > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,
> > setting
> > > > > > urgency
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic
> that
> > > > > covers
> > > > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it
> > might be
> > > > > > smart
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing
> > any ad
> > > > > hoc
> > > > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
> > activities on
> > > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a
> > poll
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a
> lawyer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
> > members
> > > > > > > watch this list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we
> > say
> > > > > land
> > > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning
> of
> > all
> > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation
> for
> > > > > this:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will
> > result in
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
> > enthusiastic
> > > > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe
> governments
> > so
> > > > > we
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what
> > their
> > > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather
> symbol
> > is
> > > > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
> > great way
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > > > confirmation
> > > > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that
> > would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to
> > fail
> > > > > pretty
> > > > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of
> the
> > > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from
> JUnit
> > 4 to
> > > > > 5.
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
> > initial
> > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change
> and
> > a
> > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life
> > cycles).
> > > > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies
> > often
> > > > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
> > materials)
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m
> > happy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there
> > any
> > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?
> > Maybe we
> > > > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For
> > example,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single
> released
> > > > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of
> people
> > > > > outside
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > > > > addresses,
> > > > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
> > infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places
> where
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in
> > tons
> > > > > of
> > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
> > considering
> > > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or
> > may
> > > > > not
> > > > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
> > concerns
> > > > > I've
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > > > > another
> > > > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has
> > tons of
> > > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility
> issues.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
> > actually a
> > > > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
> > members@,
> > > > >
> > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that
> proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll
> > and
> > > > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on
> the
> > > > > > content we
> > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first
> > idea
> > > > > on
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a
> > warm
> > > > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely
> > there. I
> > > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be
> > easy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer
> these
> > > > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the
> > rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the
> > organization
> > > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a
> > point
> > > > > of
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our
> > brand,
> > > > > it’s
> > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But
> > based
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain
> the
> > issue
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who
> are
> > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <
> > walter.lists@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to
> > volunteer
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > > > > attention
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda
> > winging
> > > > > it
> > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had
> > hoped I’d
> > > > > > speak
> > > > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand
> > and work
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would
> think
> > that
> > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but
> if
> > you
> > > > > > want me
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that
> familiar
> > > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of
> its
> > > > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of
> what
> > > > > needs
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > > > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > > > > together
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this
> > effort. I
> > > > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to
> give
> > it a
> > > > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a
> > paid
> > > > > > staff
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of
> > inaction
> > > > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Ed Mangini <me...@emangini.com>]

Creative!

How do we change the original intent?

Our website directly references the Apache tribe, and that data point is
referenced in various web assets of which we have no control.

This is where Andrew's notion of outreach would be absolutely requisite to
determine if disassociation is enough. It might even require sponsorship.

We'd need careful wordsmithing.




On Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 05:03 Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:

> I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
> have.
> I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.
>
> However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.
>
> Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
> Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
> be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
> rather than decades.
>
> For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
> "Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
> Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
> the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
> do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
> practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
> the two.
>
> I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
> understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
> "names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
> So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
> foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
> nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
> "Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
> course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
> simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.
>
> While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
> qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
> a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
> "created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
> software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
> never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
> qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
> bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
> I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
> somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
> piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
> the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
> minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
> you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
> position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
> In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
> could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
> Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
> "Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
> abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
> back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
> not really too "symmetrical" I believe.
>
> Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
> simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
> name Apache with the foundation.
>
> Why don't we simply:
>
> * change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
> that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
> there).
> * remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
> abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
> proposing and voting for a new logo)
> * ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
> Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
> immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
> * to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
> the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning
>
> Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
> of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
> of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
> software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
> simply?
>
> J.
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> >
> > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> >
> > It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis,
> etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those questions is
> part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert scale).
> >
> > In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden. DEI
> efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now. There
> are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn
> into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy
> whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize the
> effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
> >
> >
> > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> > Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
> > to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
> > name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
> > in favor of something else.
> >
> > The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
> > things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> > after native culture.
> >
> > As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> > there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
> > set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
> > how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
> > full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
> > support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
> > wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
> > able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> > <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh
> to
> > > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out
> more of
> > > a plan.
> > >
> > > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the
> name,
> > > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> > > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will
> also
> > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> Washington
> > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> stopgap
> > > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from
> the
> > > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut also
> > > says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> > > welcome a new name.
> > >
> > > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> > > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the
> membership
> > > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort and
> > > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where
> people
> > > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s
> what
> > > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone
> else and
> > > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> > >
> > > Walter
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point
> out that
> > > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the
> perception
> > > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many
> of the
> > > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are
> going to be
> > > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to
> minimize the
> > > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > > >
> > > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the
> effort.
> > > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are
> > > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to
> drive it
> > > > by committee?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Walter,
> > > >
> > > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't
> particularly
> > > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions
> at
> > > > The
> > > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > > * President,
> > > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > > * VP Infra,
> > > > * VP Brand,
> > > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > > * Treasurer,
> > > > * VP Legal,
> > > > * VP Conferences,
> > > > * VP Privacy.
> > > >
> > > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes
> that
> > > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without
> contract
> > > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > > >
> > > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while
> also
> > > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > > >
> > > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > > > Foundation
> > > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know
> how to
> > > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are
> asking
> > > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them
> on,
> > > > or
> > > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a
> volunteer.
> > > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > > >
> > > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right
> name.
> > > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
> > > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation
> owns,
> > > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo,
> the
> > > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > > > projects.
> > > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License
> > > > 2.0",
> > > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various
> license
> > > > pickers.
> > > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > > recognition
> > > > as the old name.
> > > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > > >
> > > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example
> there
> > > > has
> > > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > > establishing
> > > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted.
> You'd
> > > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > > >
> > > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you
> > > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.
> > > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only
> use
> > > > the
> > > > new name for new artifacts.
> > > >
> > > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would
> > > > fall
> > > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and
> set up
> > > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would
> have
> > > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to
> notify
> > > > all
> > > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of
> > > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are
> > > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond
> to
> > > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible
> to
> > > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would
> > > > break
> > > > client code.
> > > >
> > > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation
> that
> > > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain
> name,
> > > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache"
> in new
> > > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be
> possible. And
> > > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be
> possible
> > > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > > > require
> > > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > > > problem,
> > > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing
> consensus
> > > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> > > >
> > > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will
> > > > take
> > > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably
> > > > never
> > > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > > > possibly
> > > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > > > people
> > > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it
> for as
> > > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to
> take
> > > > on
> > > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort,
> and I
> > > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > > >
> > > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you
> willing
> > > > to
> > > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that,
> your
> > > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some
> of
> > > > the
> > > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it
> > > > weren't so.
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > > Myrle Krantz
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This
> would
> > > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the
> vote
> > > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using
> STevE
> > > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
> > > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > > >
> > > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely
> be
> > > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with
> the
> > > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Julian
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is
> not a
> > > > > > good idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <
> akm@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly
> polarizing
> > > > > (and
> > > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a
> > > > dipstick
> > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and
> tactics.
> > > > > Polling
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't
> have
> > > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition,
> it
> > > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or
> against).
> > > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> > > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you
> > > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort,
> setting
> > > > > urgency
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that
> > > > covers
> > > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it
> might be
> > > > > smart
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing
> any ad
> > > > hoc
> > > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in
> activities on
> > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a
> poll
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board
> members
> > > > > > watch this list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we
> say
> > > > land
> > > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of
> all
> > > > > school
> > > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for
> > > > this:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will
> result in
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from
> enthusiastic
> > > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments
> so
> > > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what
> their
> > > > > official
> > > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol
> is
> > > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a
> great way
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > > confirmation
> > > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that
> would
> > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to
> fail
> > > > pretty
> > > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> > > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit
> 4 to
> > > > 5.
> > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s
> initial
> > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and
> a
> > > > name
> > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life
> cycles).
> > > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies
> often
> > > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs,
> materials)
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m
> happy
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there
> any
> > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll?
> Maybe we
> > > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For
> example,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> > > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people
> > > > outside
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > > > addresses,
> > > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of
> infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where
> > > > it's
> > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in
> tons
> > > > of
> > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even
> considering
> > > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or
> may
> > > > not
> > > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable
> concerns
> > > > I've
> > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > > > another
> > > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has
> tons of
> > > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s
> actually a
> > > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on
> members@,
> > > >
> > > > > since
> > > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll
> and
> > > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the
> > > > > content we
> > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first
> idea
> > > > on
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a
> warm
> > > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely
> there. I
> > > > echo
> > > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be
> easy
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these
> > > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the
> rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the
> organization
> > > > > willing
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a
> point
> > > > of
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our
> brand,
> > > > it’s
> > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > > > community
> > > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But
> based
> > > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the
> issue
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <
> walter.lists@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org>
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to
> volunteer
> > > > to
> > > > > do?
> > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > > > attention
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda
> winging
> > > > it
> > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had
> hoped I’d
> > > > > speak
> > > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand
> and work
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think
> that
> > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if
> you
> > > > > want me
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar
> > > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> > > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what
> > > > needs
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > > > together
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this
> effort. I
> > > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give
> it a
> > > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a
> paid
> > > > > staff
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of
> inaction
> > > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > >
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>]

I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might have.
I do understand some of the sentiments of people who want change.

However, maybe there is an easier way to handle this issue.

Do we really have to change the name or just disassociate with the
Apache Tribe ? I think the latter does not need name change and will
be few orders of magnitude easier and possible to do in a few months
rather than decades.

For the vast majority of people in the software industry I think, the
"Apache Software Foundation" bears absolutely no relation to the
Apache Tribe. Why would it? Yeah originally it was a homage to some of
the qualities of the Apache Tribe as the origin of the name is, and we
do have the Feather which somewhat relates to the tribe. But for all
practical purposes and mental association there is no relation between
the two.

I've been working in a trademark office for some time and from how I
understand how names and brands are considered and used - "brands" and
"names" can only be reserved in the "scope" they are registered for.
So all Apache brand and naming is valid in "software" (and there the
foundation obviously is associated with the name) - but there is
nothing wrong (at least in the brand/trademark world) to have another
"Apache" registered for another business (think Helicopters). Of
course tribe is not a business, but I think the laws of trademark are
simply reflecting the way people think about names and brands.

While originally people who created The ASF have thought about some
qualities associated with the Apache Tribe, true, but I think this was
a very "loose" connection. Over the years Apache and The ASF actually
"created from scratch" the meaning of the "Apache" word in the
software industry. In this industry there is no "Apache Tribe" and
never was, there is no other "Apache". What's even more - those
qualities and properties chosen back there are not even the ones that
bind the Apache Software Foundation together ("community over code").
I think there was no real bad effect in the past that ASF would
somewhat create for the tribe, but - more importantly - there was no
piggy-backing I think. Since the name Apache was not really known in
the industry, and the association with the Tribe was mostly in the
minds of the people who created it and not in the minds of the users,
you cannot really say that the ASF "abused" the name to build its
position or otherwise build its reputation based on the Tribe itself.
In a way it was just a name, one of many, that people creating the ASF
could choose, and it was more for them than for the external world.
Then they worked 20 years to build the quality and reputation of the
"Apache" name in the software industry - without any piggybacking or
abusing of the association, I think. So in a way expecting to throw
back these 20 years of brand-building in a completely new industry is
not really too "symmetrical" I believe.

Since the connection is so "loose", I would say we have the option to
simply formally disassociate the meaning from the Tribe but leave the
name Apache with the foundation.

Why don't we simply:

* change the explanation of the name (And figure out some nice acronym
that APACHE might stand for - we can even vote on some proposals
there).
* remove the Feather from the logo and replace it with something more
abstract (yet another opportunity to get some members energized around
proposing and voting for a new logo)
* ask the few projects that might get an explicit association with the
Tribe (Arrow? Geronimo?) to change their names - that will be
immensely easier than changing the Foundation name
* to formally disassociate the meaning while also adding a homage for
the past association to the Tribe while we are separating the meaning

Of course - maybe I just do not understand the feelings, and desired
of those who feel strongly about the association, but I think the fact
of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate those two
simply?

J.


On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
>
> It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis, etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those questions is part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert scale).
>
> In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden. DEI efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now. There are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize the effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
>
>
> From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
> to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
> name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
> in favor of something else.
>
> The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
> things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> after native culture.
>
> As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
> there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
> set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
> how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
> full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
> support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
> wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
> able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
> <wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh to
> > everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out more of
> > a plan.
> >
> > I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the name,
> > it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> > decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will also
> > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the Washington
> > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a stopgap
> > name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from the
> > membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut also
> > says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> > welcome a new name.
> >
> > I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> > change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the membership
> > indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort and
> > volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where people
> > knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s what
> > the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone else and
> > maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
> >
> > Walter
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point out that
> > > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the perception
> > > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many of the
> > > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are going to be
> > > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to minimize the
> > > impact of some of those dependencies).
> > >
> > > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the effort.
> > > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are
> > > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it
> > > by committee?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > Walter,
> > >
> > > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly
> > > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions at
> > > The
> > > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > > * President,
> > > * Executive Vice President,
> > > * VP Infra,
> > > * VP Brand,
> > > * VP Fundraising,
> > > * Treasurer,
> > > * VP Legal,
> > > * VP Conferences,
> > > * VP Privacy.
> > >
> > > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes that
> > > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without contract
> > > negotiations, and added costs.
> > >
> > > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while also
> > > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> > >
> > > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > > Foundation
> > > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know how to
> > > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are asking
> > > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them on,
> > > or
> > > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a volunteer.
> > > Y'all check me, but I see:
> > >
> > > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.
> > > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
> > > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,
> > > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the
> > > incubator logo, etc.
> > > * Registering a new website domain.
> > > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > > projects.
> > > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License
> > > 2.0",
> > > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various license
> > > pickers.
> > > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > > recognition
> > > as the old name.
> > > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> > >
> > > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example there
> > > has
> > > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > > establishing
> > > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted. You'd
> > > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> > >
> > > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you
> > > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.
> > > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only use
> > > the
> > > new name for new artifacts.
> > >
> > > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would
> > > fall
> > > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and set up
> > > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would have
> > > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to notify
> > > all
> > > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of
> > > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are
> > > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond to
> > > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible to
> > > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would
> > > break
> > > client code.
> > >
> > > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > > independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation that
> > > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain name,
> > > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache" in new
> > > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be possible. And
> > > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be possible
> > > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > > require
> > > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > > problem,
> > > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing consensus
> > > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> > >
> > > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will
> > > take
> > > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably
> > > never
> > > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > > possibly
> > > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > > people
> > > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it for as
> > > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to take
> > > on
> > > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort, and I
> > > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> > >
> > > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you willing
> > > to
> > > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that, your
> > > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some of
> > > the
> > > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it
> > > weren't so.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > > Myrle Krantz
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would
> > > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote
> > > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE
> > > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
> > > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > > >
> > > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be
> > > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the
> > > > most polarized opinions.
> > > >
> > > > Julian
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> > > > > good idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing
> > > > (and
> > > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a
> > > dipstick
> > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.
> > > > Polling
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have
> > > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it
> > > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
> > > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> > > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you
> > > > looking at
> > > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting
> > > > urgency
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that
> > > covers
> > > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be
> > > > smart
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad
> > > hoc
> > > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on
> > > > this,
> > > > > > > no.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll
> > > and
> > > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
> > > > >
> > > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members
> > > > > watch this list.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say
> > > land
> > > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all
> > > > school
> > > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for
> > > this:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in
> > > an
> > > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic
> > > > sympathy
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so
> > > we
> > > > can
> > > > > > > open
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their
> > > > official
> > > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is
> > > > viewed as
> > > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > > feasibility
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way
> > > of
> > > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > > confirmation
> > > > bias,
> > > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would
> > > > require
> > > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail
> > > pretty
> > > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> > > > Washington
> > > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to
> > > 5.
> > > > This
> > > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial
> > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a
> > > name
> > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).
> > > > Large
> > > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often
> > > > rebrand
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials)
> > > are
> > > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy
> > > to
> > > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any
> > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we
> > > > can put
> > > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example,
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> > > > artifact,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people
> > > outside
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > > addresses,
> > > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > > trademarks,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where
> > > it's
> > > > easy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons
> > > of
> > > > key
> > > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may
> > > not
> > > > adopt
> > > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns
> > > I've
> > > > had
> > > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > > another
> > > > OSS
> > > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,
> > >
> > > > since
> > > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and
> > > > proposing
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the
> > > > content we
> > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea
> > > on
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm
> > > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I
> > > echo
> > > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy
> > > to
> > > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these
> > > > questions in
> > > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization
> > > > willing
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point
> > > of
> > > > no
> > > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand,
> > > it’s
> > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > > community
> > > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based
> > > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue
> > > or
> > > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> > > > interested
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > > dev@community.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer
> > > to
> > > > do?
> > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > > attention
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging
> > > it
> > > > but I
> > > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d
> > > > speak
> > > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work
> > > to
> > > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that
> > > > might
> > > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you
> > > > want me
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar
> > > with
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> > > > Directors,
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what
> > > needs
> > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > > rudimentary
> > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > > together
> > > > a
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I
> > > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a
> > > > try.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid
> > > > staff
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > > continue
> > > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction
> > > > outweigh
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

100% with you about the mechanics of a poll. 

It is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis, etc. before we can drive a poll.  I think coming up with those questions is part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert scale). 

In terms of LOE, there might be ways to mitigate some of the burden. DEI efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now. There are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy whose core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize the effort. PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. ) 


From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison  
to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their  
name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS  
in favor of something else.  

The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would  
things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves  
after native culture.  

As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think  
there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific  
set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on  
how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being  
full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more  
support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it  
wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be  
able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.  

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron  
<wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:  
>  
> I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh to  
> everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out more of  
> a plan.  
>  
> I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the name,  
> it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take  
> decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will also  
> but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the Washington  
> Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a stopgap  
> name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from the  
> membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut also  
> says that despite the work, even the larger software community would  
> welcome a new name.  
>  
> I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact  
> change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the membership  
> indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort and  
> volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where people  
> knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s what  
> the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone else and  
> maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.  
>  
> Walter  
>  
>  
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
>  
> > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point out that  
> > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the perception  
> > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many of the  
> > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are going to be  
> > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to minimize the  
> > impact of some of those dependencies).  
> >  
> > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the effort.  
> > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are  
> > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it  
> > by committee?  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>  
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06  
> > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> >  
> > Walter,  
> >  
> > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly  
> > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions at  
> > The  
> > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including  
> > * President,  
> > * Executive Vice President,  
> > * VP Infra,  
> > * VP Brand,  
> > * VP Fundraising,  
> > * Treasurer,  
> > * VP Legal,  
> > * VP Conferences,  
> > * VP Privacy.  
> >  
> > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes that  
> > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without contract  
> > negotiations, and added costs.  
> >  
> > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while also  
> > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.  
> >  
> > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The  
> > Foundation  
> > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know how to  
> > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are asking  
> > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them on,  
> > or  
> > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a volunteer.  
> > Y'all check me, but I see:  
> >  
> > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.  
> > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.  
> > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the  
> > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.  
> > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,  
> > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the  
> > incubator logo, etc.  
> > * Registering a new website domain.  
> > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many  
> > projects.  
> > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License  
> > 2.0",  
> > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various license  
> > pickers.  
> > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of  
> > recognition  
> > as the old name.  
> > * ...all the things I didn't think of.  
> >  
> > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example there  
> > has  
> > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand  
> > establishing  
> > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted. You'd  
> > need to get support from our Chinese members.  
> >  
> > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you  
> > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.  
> > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only use  
> > the  
> > new name for new artifacts.  
> >  
> > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The  
> > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would  
> > fall  
> > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and set up  
> > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would have  
> > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to notify  
> > all  
> > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of  
> > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are  
> > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond to  
> > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible to  
> > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would  
> > break  
> > client code.  
> >  
> > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are  
> > independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation that  
> > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain name,  
> > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache" in new  
> > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.  
> > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be possible. And  
> > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be possible  
> > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would  
> > require  
> > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the  
> > problem,  
> > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing consensus  
> > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.  
> >  
> > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will  
> > take  
> > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably  
> > never  
> > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,  
> > possibly  
> > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince  
> > people  
> > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it for as  
> > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is  
> > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to take  
> > on  
> > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of  
> > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort, and I  
> > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.  
> >  
> > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you willing  
> > to  
> > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that, your  
> > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some of  
> > the  
> > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it  
> > weren't so.  
> >  
> > Best Regards,  
> > Myrle Krantz  
> >  
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:  
> >  
> > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would  
> > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote  
> > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE  
> > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions  
> > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.  
> > >  
> > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be  
> > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the  
> > > most polarized opinions.  
> > >  
> > > Julian  
> > >  
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > >  
> > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>  
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41  
> > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > >  
> > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a  
> > > > good idea.  
> > > >  
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > > wrote:  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Copying them now.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > > >  
> > > > > > @Andrew,  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > How do we engage the board?  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Ed Mangini  
> > > > > > me@emangini.com  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28  
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Andrew,  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing  
> > > (and  
> > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a  
> > dipstick  
> > > > > > effort  
> > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.  
> > > Polling  
> > > > > > is  
> > > > > > > more about discovery.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.  
> > > >  
> > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have  
> > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it  
> > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).  
> > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be  
> > > > useful there needs to be some substance.  
> > > >  
> > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you  
> > > looking at  
> > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting  
> > > urgency  
> > > > > > on  
> > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that  
> > covers  
> > > > > > almost  
> > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be  
> > > smart  
> > > > > > for  
> > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad  
> > hoc  
> > > > > > outreach.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on  
> > > this,  
> > > > > > no.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll  
> > and  
> > > > > > > outreach?  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.  
> > > >  
> > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members  
> > > > watch this list.  
> > > >  
> > > > - Sam Ruby  
> > > >  
> > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05  
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say  
> > land  
> > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all  
> > > school  
> > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for  
> > this:  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in  
> > an  
> > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic  
> > > sympathy  
> > > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so  
> > we  
> > > can  
> > > > > > open  
> > > > > > > a  
> > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their  
> > > official  
> > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is  
> > > viewed as  
> > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with  
> > > feasibility  
> > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > community values.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Best  
> > > > > > > Andrew  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > @Christian  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way  
> > of  
> > > > > > > defining  
> > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid  
> > confirmation  
> > > bias,  
> > > > > > > but I  
> > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > @Matt  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would  
> > > require  
> > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail  
> > pretty  
> > > > > > > quickly.  
> > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the  
> > > Washington  
> > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to  
> > 5.  
> > > This  
> > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial  
> > > questions.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a  
> > name  
> > > > > > change  
> > > > > > > as  
> > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).  
> > > Large  
> > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often  
> > > rebrand  
> > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their  
> > > business/tech  
> > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials)  
> > are  
> > > > > > > retrofit  
> > > > > > > > at a slower burn.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy  
> > to  
> > > > > > pair/mob  
> > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any  
> > > particular  
> > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we  
> > > can put  
> > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07  
> > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example,  
> > the  
> > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of  
> > > unchangeable  
> > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released  
> > > artifact,  
> > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people  
> > outside  
> > > of  
> > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email  
> > addresses,  
> > > > > > signing  
> > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure  
> > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,  
> > > trademarks,  
> > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where  
> > it's  
> > > easy  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons  
> > of  
> > > key  
> > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering  
> > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may  
> > not  
> > > adopt  
> > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns  
> > I've  
> > > had  
> > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with  
> > another  
> > > OSS  
> > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of  
> > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier  
> > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > > Christian,  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a  
> > > > > > > spectacular  
> > > > > > > > idea.  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,  
> >  
> > > since  
> > > > > > (I  
> > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and  
> > > proposing  
> > > > > > > it  
> > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the  
> > > content we  
> > > > > > > could  
> > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea  
> > on  
> > > it.  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm  
> > > feeling,  
> > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > Kind regards,  
> > > > > > > > > Christian  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini  
> > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> >  
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04  
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> Hello,  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I  
> > echo  
> > > > > > > Walter’s  
> > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> +1  
> > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy  
> > to  
> > > > > > > > accomplish.  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> +1  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these  
> > > questions in  
> > > > > > > > concert:  
> > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?  
> > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization  
> > > willing  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > participate?  
> > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point  
> > of  
> > > no  
> > > > > > > > return. If  
> > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand,  
> > it’s  
> > > > > > going  
> > > > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the  
> > community  
> > > > > > > first-  
> > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community  
> > > (non-binding)  
> > > > > > vote  
> > > > > > > is  
> > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based  
> > on  
> > > the  
> > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue  
> > or  
> > > > > > > actually  
> > > > > > > > solve the issue.  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are  
> > > interested  
> > > > > > in  
> > > > > > > > helping.  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,  
> > > > > > > > > >> Christian  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>  
> > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <  
> > dev@community.apache.org  
> > > >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03  
> > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <  
> > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > wrote:  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer  
> > to  
> > > do?  
> > > > > > > What  
> > > > > > > > is  
> > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring  
> > attention  
> > > to  
> > > > > > > this  
> > > > > > > > issue and  
> > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging  
> > it  
> > > but I  
> > > > > > > > appreciate  
> > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d  
> > > speak  
> > > > > > up,  
> > > > > > > > people  
> > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work  
> > to  
> > > > > > undo  
> > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > harm  
> > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that  
> > > might  
> > > > > > > spur  
> > > > > > > > effort  
> > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you  
> > > want me  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > do  
> > > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar  
> > with  
> > > the  
> > > > > > > details  
> > > > > > > > of the  
> > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its  
> > > Directors,  
> > > > > > so  
> > > > > > > in  
> > > > > > > > a lot  
> > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what  
> > needs  
> > > to be  
> > > > > > > > done, but  
> > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my  
> > rudimentary  
> > > > > > > technical  
> > > > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put  
> > together  
> > > a  
> > > > > > new  
> > > > > > > > logo or  
> > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I  
> > > haven’t  
> > > > > > > > designed a  
> > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a  
> > > try.  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid  
> > > staff  
> > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > > goals to  
> > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and  
> > continue  
> > > > > > > receiving  
> > > > > > > > corporate  
> > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction  
> > > outweigh  
> > > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > > costs of  
> > > > > > > > > >> > action here.  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.  
> > > > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > > > >> > Walter  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:  
> > > dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > >  
> > >  
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
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> > >  
> > >  
> >  

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>]

On 29/04/2022 23:21, Matt Sicker wrote:

<snip/>

> as would
> things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
> after native culture.

That is an easy one to implement. Consider it done. I'll update the 
documented process for choosing a project name when I have a little more 
time but that additional check will apply to all name searches from this 
point onwards.

(trademarks@ on bcc so there is a record of this on the relevant list)

Mark

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
in favor of something else.

The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
after native culture.

As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
<wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
>
> I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh to
> everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out more of
> a plan.
>
> I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the name,
> it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will also
> but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the Washington
> Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a stopgap
> name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from the
> membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut also
> says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> welcome a new name.
>
> I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the membership
> indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort and
> volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where people
> knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s what
> the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone else and
> maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
>
> Walter
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point out that
> > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the perception
> > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many of the
> > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are going to be
> > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to minimize the
> > impact of some of those dependencies).
> >
> > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the effort.
> > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are
> > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it
> > by committee?
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> > Walter,
> >
> > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly
> > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions at
> > The
> > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > * President,
> > * Executive Vice President,
> > * VP Infra,
> > * VP Brand,
> > * VP Fundraising,
> > * Treasurer,
> > * VP Legal,
> > * VP Conferences,
> > * VP Privacy.
> >
> > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes that
> > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without contract
> > negotiations, and added costs.
> >
> > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while also
> > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> >
> > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > Foundation
> > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know how to
> > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are asking
> > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them on,
> > or
> > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a volunteer.
> > Y'all check me, but I see:
> >
> > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.
> > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
> > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,
> > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the
> > incubator logo, etc.
> > * Registering a new website domain.
> > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > projects.
> > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License
> > 2.0",
> > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various license
> > pickers.
> > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > recognition
> > as the old name.
> > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> >
> > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example there
> > has
> > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > establishing
> > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted. You'd
> > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> >
> > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you
> > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.
> > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only use
> > the
> > new name for new artifacts.
> >
> > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would
> > fall
> > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and set up
> > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would have
> > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to notify
> > all
> > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of
> > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are
> > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond to
> > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible to
> > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would
> > break
> > client code.
> >
> > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation that
> > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain name,
> > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache" in new
> > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be possible. And
> > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be possible
> > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > require
> > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > problem,
> > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing consensus
> > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> >
> > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will
> > take
> > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably
> > never
> > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > possibly
> > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > people
> > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it for as
> > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to take
> > on
> > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort, and I
> > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> >
> > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you willing
> > to
> > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that, your
> > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some of
> > the
> > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it
> > weren't so.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle Krantz
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would
> > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote
> > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE
> > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
> > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > >
> > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be
> > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the
> > > most polarized opinions.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> > > > good idea.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing
> > > (and
> > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a
> > dipstick
> > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.
> > > Polling
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > >
> > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have
> > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it
> > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
> > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > >
> > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you
> > > looking at
> > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting
> > > urgency
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that
> > covers
> > > > > > almost
> > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be
> > > smart
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad
> > hoc
> > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on
> > > this,
> > > > > > no.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll
> > and
> > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
> > > >
> > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members
> > > > watch this list.
> > > >
> > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > >
> > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say
> > land
> > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all
> > > school
> > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for
> > this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in
> > an
> > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic
> > > sympathy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so
> > we
> > > can
> > > > > > open
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their
> > > official
> > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is
> > > viewed as
> > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > feasibility
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way
> > of
> > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > confirmation
> > > bias,
> > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would
> > > require
> > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail
> > pretty
> > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> > > Washington
> > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to
> > 5.
> > > This
> > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial
> > > questions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a
> > name
> > > > > > change
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).
> > > Large
> > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often
> > > rebrand
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials)
> > are
> > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy
> > to
> > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any
> > > particular
> > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we
> > > can put
> > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example,
> > the
> > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> > > artifact,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people
> > outside
> > > of
> > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > addresses,
> > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > trademarks,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where
> > it's
> > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons
> > of
> > > key
> > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may
> > not
> > > adopt
> > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns
> > I've
> > > had
> > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > another
> > > OSS
> > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,
> >
> > > since
> > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and
> > > proposing
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the
> > > content we
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea
> > on
> > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm
> > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I
> > echo
> > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy
> > to
> > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these
> > > questions in
> > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization
> > > willing
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point
> > of
> > > no
> > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand,
> > it’s
> > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > community
> > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based
> > on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue
> > or
> > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> > > interested
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer
> > to
> > > do?
> > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > attention
> > > to
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging
> > it
> > > but I
> > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d
> > > speak
> > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work
> > to
> > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that
> > > might
> > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you
> > > want me
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar
> > with
> > > the
> > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> > > Directors,
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what
> > needs
> > > to be
> > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > rudimentary
> > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > together
> > > a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I
> > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a
> > > try.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid
> > > staff
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > continue
> > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction
> > > outweigh
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > >
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> >

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh to
everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out more of
a plan.

I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the name,
it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will also
but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the Washington
Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a stopgap
name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from the
membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut also
says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
welcome a new name.

I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the membership
indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort and
volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where people
knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s what
the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone else and
maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.

Walter


On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point out that
> if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the perception
> of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many of the
> tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are going to be
> many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to minimize the
> impact of some of those dependencies).
>
> I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the effort.
> If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are
> willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it
> by committee?
>
>
>
> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Walter,
>
> The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly
> relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions at
> The
> Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> * President,
> * Executive Vice President,
> * VP Infra,
> * VP Brand,
> * VP Fundraising,
> * Treasurer,
> * VP Legal,
> * VP Conferences,
> * VP Privacy.
>
> Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes that
> can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without contract
> negotiations, and added costs.
>
> All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while also
> doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
>
> That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> Foundation
> members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know how to
> fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are asking
> for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them on,
> or
> that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a volunteer.
> Y'all check me, but I see:
>
> * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.
> * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
> Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,
> including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the
> incubator logo, etc.
> * Registering a new website domain.
> * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> projects.
> * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License
> 2.0",
> but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various license
> pickers.
> * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> recognition
> as the old name.
> * ...all the things I didn't think of.
>
> Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example there
> has
> already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> establishing
> Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted. You'd
> need to get support from our Chinese members.
>
> There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you
> should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.
> Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only use
> the
> new name for new artifacts.
>
> Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would
> fall
> under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and set up
> redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would have
> to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to notify
> all
> of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of
> work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are
> interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond to
> tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible to
> fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would
> break
> client code.
>
> Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation that
> all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain name,
> and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache" in new
> projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> Introducing the same license under a new name might also be possible. And
> replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be possible
> without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> require
> someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> problem,
> discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing consensus
> that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
>
> Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will
> take
> years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably
> never
> be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> possibly
> thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> people
> not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it for as
> long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to take
> on
> some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort, and I
> haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
>
> Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you willing
> to
> do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that, your
> statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some of
> the
> project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it
> weren't so.
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle Krantz
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would
> > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote
> > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE
> > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
> > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> >
> > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be
> > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the
> > most polarized opinions.
> >
> > Julian
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> > > good idea.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Copying them now.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > >
> > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing
> > (and
> > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a
> dipstick
> > > > > effort
> > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.
> > Polling
> > > > > is
> > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > >
> > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have
> > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it
> > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
> > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > >
> > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you
> > looking at
> > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting
> > urgency
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that
> covers
> > > > > almost
> > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be
> > smart
> > > > > for
> > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad
> hoc
> > > > > outreach.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on
> > this,
> > > > > no.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll
> and
> > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
> > >
> > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members
> > > watch this list.
> > >
> > > - Sam Ruby
> > >
> > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say
> land
> > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all
> > school
> > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for
> this:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in
> an
> > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic
> > sympathy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so
> we
> > can
> > > > > open
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their
> > official
> > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is
> > viewed as
> > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > feasibility
> > > > > and
> > > > > > community values.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best
> > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way
> of
> > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> confirmation
> > bias,
> > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would
> > require
> > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail
> pretty
> > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> > Washington
> > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to
> 5.
> > This
> > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial
> > questions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a
> name
> > > > > change
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).
> > Large
> > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often
> > rebrand
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > business/tech
> > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials)
> are
> > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy
> to
> > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any
> > particular
> > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we
> > can put
> > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example,
> the
> > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > unchangeable
> > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> > artifact,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people
> outside
> > of
> > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> addresses,
> > > > > signing
> > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > trademarks,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where
> it's
> > easy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons
> of
> > key
> > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may
> not
> > adopt
> > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns
> I've
> > had
> > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> another
> > OSS
> > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,
>
> > since
> > > > > (I
> > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and
> > proposing
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the
> > content we
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea
> on
> > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm
> > feeling,
> > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
>
> > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I
> echo
> > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy
> to
> > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these
> > questions in
> > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization
> > willing
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point
> of
> > no
> > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand,
> it’s
> > > > > going
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> community
> > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > (non-binding)
> > > > > vote
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based
> on
> > the
> > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue
> or
> > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> > interested
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> dev@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
>
> > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer
> to
> > do?
> > > > > > What
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> attention
> > to
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging
> it
> > but I
> > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d
> > speak
> > > > > up,
> > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work
> to
> > > > > undo
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that
> > might
> > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you
> > want me
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar
> with
> > the
> > > > > > details
> > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> > Directors,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what
> needs
> > to be
> > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> rudimentary
> > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> together
> > a
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I
> > haven’t
> > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a
> > try.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid
> > staff
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> continue
> > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction
> > outweigh
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point out that if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the perception of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many of the tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are going to be many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to minimize the impact of some of those dependencies). 

I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the effort. If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it by committee? 



From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

Walter,  

The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly  
relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions at The  
Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including  
* President,  
* Executive Vice President,  
* VP Infra,  
* VP Brand,  
* VP Fundraising,  
* Treasurer,  
* VP Legal,  
* VP Conferences,  
* VP Privacy.  

Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes that  
can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without contract  
negotiations, and added costs.  

All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while also  
doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.  

That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The Foundation  
members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know how to  
fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are asking  
for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them on, or  
that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a volunteer.  
Y'all check me, but I see:  

* Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.  
* Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.  
* Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the  
Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.  
* Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,  
including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the  
incubator logo, etc.  
* Registering a new website domain.  
* Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many projects.  
* Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License 2.0",  
but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various license  
pickers.  
* Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of recognition  
as the old name.  
* ...all the things I didn't think of.  

Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example there has  
already been significant effort that I don't fully understand establishing  
Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted. You'd  
need to get support from our Chinese members.  

There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you  
should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.  
Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only use the  
new name for new artifacts.  

Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The  
Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would fall  
under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and set up  
redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would have  
to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to notify all  
of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of  
work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are  
interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond to  
tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible to  
fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would break  
client code.  

Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are  
independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation that  
all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain name,  
and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache" in new  
projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.  
Introducing the same license under a new name might also be possible. And  
replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be possible  
without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would require  
someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the problem,  
discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing consensus  
that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.  

Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will take  
years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably never  
be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds, possibly  
thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince people  
not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it for as  
long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is  
willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to take on  
some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of  
expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort, and I  
haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.  

Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you willing to  
do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that, your  
statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some of the  
project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it  
weren't so.  

Best Regards,  
Myrle Krantz  

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:  

> I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would  
> not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote  
> 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE  
> during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions  
> are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.  
>  
> As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be  
> divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the  
> most polarized opinions.  
>  
> Julian  
>  
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> >  
> > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>  
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41  
> > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> >  
> > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a  
> > good idea.  
> >  
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> wrote:  
> > >  
> > > Copying them now.  
> > >  
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > >  
> > > > @Andrew,  
> > > >  
> > > > How do we engage the board?  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Ed Mangini  
> > > > me@emangini.com  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28  
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > >  
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > >  
> > > > > Andrew,  
> > > > >  
> > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing  
> (and  
> > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick  
> > > > effort  
> > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.  
> Polling  
> > > > is  
> > > > > more about discovery.  
> > > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.  
> >  
> > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have  
> > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it  
> > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).  
> > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be  
> > useful there needs to be some substance.  
> >  
> > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you  
> looking at  
> > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting  
> urgency  
> > > > on  
> > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)  
> > > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers  
> > > > almost  
> > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be  
> smart  
> > > > for  
> > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc  
> > > > outreach.  
> > > >  
> > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?  
> > > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on  
> this,  
> > > > no.  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and  
> > > > > outreach?  
> > > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.  
> >  
> > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members  
> > watch this list.  
> >  
> > - Sam Ruby  
> >  
> > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05  
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land  
> > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all  
> school  
> > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:  
> > > > >  
> > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an  
> > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic  
> sympathy  
> > > > > to  
> > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we  
> can  
> > > > open  
> > > > > a  
> > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their  
> official  
> > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is  
> viewed as  
> > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with  
> feasibility  
> > > > and  
> > > > > community values.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Best  
> > > > > Andrew  
> > > > >  
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > > > >  
> > > > > > @Christian  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of  
> > > > > defining  
> > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation  
> bias,  
> > > > > but I  
> > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > @Matt  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would  
> require  
> > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty  
> > > > > quickly.  
> > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the  
> Washington  
> > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5.  
> This  
> > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial  
> questions.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name  
> > > > change  
> > > > > as  
> > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).  
> Large  
> > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often  
> rebrand  
> > > > > the  
> > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their  
> business/tech  
> > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are  
> > > > > retrofit  
> > > > > > at a slower burn.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to  
> > > > pair/mob  
> > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any  
> particular  
> > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we  
> can put  
> > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07  
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the  
> > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of  
> unchangeable  
> > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released  
> artifact,  
> > > > the  
> > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside  
> of  
> > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses,  
> > > > signing  
> > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure  
> > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,  
> trademarks,  
> > > > and  
> > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's  
> easy  
> > > > to  
> > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of  
> key  
> > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering  
> > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not  
> adopt  
> > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've  
> had  
> > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another  
> OSS  
> > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of  
> > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier  
> > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:  
> > > > > > > > Christian,  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a  
> > > > > spectacular  
> > > > > > idea.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,  
> since  
> > > > (I  
> > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and  
> proposing  
> > > > > it  
> > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the  
> content we  
> > > > > could  
> > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on  
> it.  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm  
> feeling,  
> > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Kind regards,  
> > > > > > > Christian  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Ed Mangini  
> > > > > > > > me@emangini.com  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04  
> > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> Hello,  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:  
> > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo  
> > > > > Walter’s  
> > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> +1  
> > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to  
> > > > > > accomplish.  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> +1  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these  
> questions in  
> > > > > > concert:  
> > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?  
> > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization  
> willing  
> > > > to  
> > > > > > participate?  
> > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of  
> no  
> > > > > > return. If  
> > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s  
> > > > going  
> > > > > > to  
> > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community  
> > > > > first-  
> > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community  
> (non-binding)  
> > > > vote  
> > > > > is  
> > > > > > - just checking sentiments.  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on  
> the  
> > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or  
> > > > > actually  
> > > > > > solve the issue.  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are  
> interested  
> > > > in  
> > > > > > helping.  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> Cheers,  
> > > > > > > >> Christian  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>  
> > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org  
> >  
> > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03  
> > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <  
> > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>  
> > > > >  
> > > > > > wrote:  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to  
> do?  
> > > > > What  
> > > > > > is  
> > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention  
> to  
> > > > > this  
> > > > > > issue and  
> > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it  
> but I  
> > > > > > appreciate  
> > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d  
> speak  
> > > > up,  
> > > > > > people  
> > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to  
> > > > undo  
> > > > > the  
> > > > > > harm  
> > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that  
> might  
> > > > > spur  
> > > > > > effort  
> > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you  
> want me  
> > > > to  
> > > > > do  
> > > > > > the  
> > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with  
> the  
> > > > > details  
> > > > > > of the  
> > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its  
> Directors,  
> > > > so  
> > > > > in  
> > > > > > a lot  
> > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs  
> to be  
> > > > > > done, but  
> > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary  
> > > > > technical  
> > > > > > and  
> > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together  
> a  
> > > > new  
> > > > > > logo or  
> > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I  
> haven’t  
> > > > > > designed a  
> > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a  
> try.  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid  
> staff  
> > > > and  
> > > > > > goals to  
> > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue  
> > > > > receiving  
> > > > > > corporate  
> > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction  
> outweigh  
> > > > > the  
> > > > > > costs of  
> > > > > > > >> > action here.  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.  
> > > > > > > >> >  
> > > > > > > >> > Walter  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > >  
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:  
> dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > > >>  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > >  
> >  
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> >  
>  
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
>  
>  

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>]

Walter,

The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly
relevant to the question.  All of the top level leadership positions at The
Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
* President,
* Executive Vice President,
* VP Infra,
* VP Brand,
* VP Fundraising,
* Treasurer,
* VP Legal,
* VP Conferences,
* VP Privacy.

Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes that
can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without contract
negotiations, and added costs.

All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while also
doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.

That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The Foundation
members agree that the name is sub-optimal.  People just don't know how to
fix it.  IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are asking
for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them on, or
that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a volunteer.
Y'all check me, but I see:

* Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.
* Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
* Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
* Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,
including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the
incubator logo, etc.
* Registering a new website domain.
* Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many projects.
* Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License 2.0",
but under a new name.  Getting that new license listed in various license
pickers.
* Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of recognition
as the old name.
* ...all the things I didn't think of.

Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions.  For example there has
already been significant effort that I don't fully understand establishing
Apache branding in China.  Those efforts would have to be restarted.  You'd
need to get support from our Chinese members.

There are dependencies between some of these items.  For example, you
should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.
Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only use the
new name for new artifacts.

Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
Foundation.  For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would fall
under VP Legal.  Infra would have to register new domain names, and set up
redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains.  VP Conferences would have
to adjust the conference branding.  VP Fundraising might need to notify all
of our sponsors.  etc.  All in all this would be thousands of hours of
work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are
interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond to
tasks on deadlines.  And at the end it would certainly be impossible to
fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would break
client code.

Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation that
all tasks would be completed.  For example, registering a new domain name,
and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache" in new
projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
Introducing the same license under a new name might also be possible.  And
replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be possible
without touching anything else.  To tease out tasks like this would require
someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the problem,
discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing consensus
that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.

Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will take
years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably never
be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds, possibly
thousands of people.  To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince people
not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it for as
long as the task will take.  With all that as context: if someone is
willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to take on
some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
expertise.  But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort, and I
haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.

Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you willing to
do the work?" this may be what they are asking.  Despite all of that, your
statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some of the
project names are valid.  The hurt you describe is real.  And I wish it
weren't so.

Best Regards,
Myrle Krantz

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:

> I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would
> not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote
> 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE
> during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
> are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
>
> As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be
> divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the
> most polarized opinions.
>
> Julian
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> > good idea.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Copying them now.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > @Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > me@emangini.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Andrew,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing
> (and
> > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick
> > > > effort
> > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.
> Polling
> > > > is
> > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> >
> > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have
> > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it
> > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
> > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> > useful there needs to be some substance.
> >
> > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you
> looking at
> > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting
> urgency
> > > > on
> > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers
> > > > almost
> > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be
> smart
> > > > for
> > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc
> > > > outreach.
> > > >
> > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on
> this,
> > > > no.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and
> > > > > outreach?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
> >
> > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members
> > watch this list.
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
> > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all
> school
> > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:
> > > > >
> > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an
> > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic
> sympathy
> > > > > to
> > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we
> can
> > > > open
> > > > > a
> > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their
> official
> > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > >
> > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > >
> > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is
> viewed as
> > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> feasibility
> > > > and
> > > > > community values.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of
> > > > > defining
> > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation
> bias,
> > > > > but I
> > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would
> require
> > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty
> > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> Washington
> > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5.
> This
> > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial
> questions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name
> > > > change
> > > > > as
> > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).
> Large
> > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often
> rebrand
> > > > > the
> > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> business/tech
> > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are
> > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to
> > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any
> particular
> > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we
> can put
> > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the
> > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> unchangeable
> > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> artifact,
> > > > the
> > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside
> of
> > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses,
> > > > signing
> > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> trademarks,
> > > > and
> > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's
> easy
> > > > to
> > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of
> key
> > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not
> adopt
> > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've
> had
> > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another
> OSS
> > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,
> since
> > > > (I
> > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and
> proposing
> > > > > it
> > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the
> content we
> > > > > could
> > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on
> it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm
> feeling,
> > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo
> > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to
> > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these
> questions in
> > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization
> willing
> > > > to
> > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of
> no
> > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s
> > > > going
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community
> > > > > first-
> > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> (non-binding)
> > > > vote
> > > > > is
> > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on
> the
> > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or
> > > > > actually
> > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> interested
> > > > in
> > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to
> do?
> > > > > What
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention
> to
> > > > > this
> > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it
> but I
> > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d
> speak
> > > > up,
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to
> > > > undo
> > > > > the
> > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that
> might
> > > > > spur
> > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you
> want me
> > > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with
> the
> > > > > details
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> Directors,
> > > > so
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs
> to be
> > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary
> > > > > technical
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together
> a
> > > > new
> > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I
> haven’t
> > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a
> try.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid
> staff
> > > > and
> > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue
> > > > > receiving
> > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction
> outweigh
> > > > > the
> > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>]

I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would
not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote
'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE
during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.

As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be
divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the
most polarized opinions.

Julian

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
>
>
>
> From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> good idea.
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Copying them now.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> >
> > > @Andrew,
> > >
> > > How do we engage the board?
> > >
> > >
> > > Ed Mangini
> > > me@emangini.com
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and
> > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick
> > > effort
> > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling
> > > is
> > > > more about discovery.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
>
> I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have
> a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it
> isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
> It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> useful there needs to be some substance.
>
> > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at
> > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency
> > > on
> > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers
> > > almost
> > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be smart
> > > for
> > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc
> > > outreach.
> > >
> > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on this,
> > > no.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and
> > > > outreach?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
>
> Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members
> watch this list.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
> > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school
> > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:
> > > >
> > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an
> > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy
> > > > to
> > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > >
> > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can
> > > open
> > > > a
> > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
> > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > >
> > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > >
> > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as
> > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility
> > > and
> > > > community values.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > @Christian
> > > > >
> > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of
> > > > defining
> > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias,
> > > > but I
> > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > @Matt
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require
> > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty
> > > > quickly.
> > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington
> > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This
> > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name
> > > change
> > > > as
> > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large
> > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand
> > > > the
> > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech
> > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are
> > > > retrofit
> > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to
> > > pair/mob
> > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular
> > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > >
> > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put
> > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the
> > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable
> > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released artifact,
> > > the
> > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of
> > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses,
> > > signing
> > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks,
> > > and
> > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy
> > > to
> > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key
> > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt
> > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had
> > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS
> > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > > spectacular
> > > > > idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since
> > > (I
> > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing
> > > > it
> > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we
> > > > could
> > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling,
> > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > Christian
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo
> > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to
> > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in
> > > > > concert:
> > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing
> > > to
> > > > > participate?
> > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no
> > > > > return. If
> > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s
> > > going
> > > > > to
> > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community
> > > > first-
> > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding)
> > > vote
> > > > is
> > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the
> > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or
> > > > actually
> > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested
> > > in
> > > > > helping.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?
> > > > What
> > > > > is
> > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to
> > > > this
> > > > > issue and
> > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I
> > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak
> > > up,
> > > > > people
> > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to
> > > undo
> > > > the
> > > > > harm
> > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might
> > > > spur
> > > > > effort
> > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me
> > > to
> > > > do
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the
> > > > details
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors,
> > > so
> > > > in
> > > > > a lot
> > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be
> > > > > done, but
> > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary
> > > > technical
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a
> > > new
> > > > > logo or
> > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t
> > > > > designed a
> > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff
> > > and
> > > > > goals to
> > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue
> > > > receiving
> > > > > corporate
> > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh
> > > > the
> > > > > costs of
> > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!



From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a  
good idea.  

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> wrote:  
>  
> Copying them now.  
>  
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
>  
> > @Andrew,  
> >  
> > How do we engage the board?  
> >  
> >  
> > Ed Mangini  
> > me@emangini.com  
> >  
> >  
> > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28  
> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> >  
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> >  
> > > Andrew,  
> > >  
> > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and  
> > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick  
> > effort  
> > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling  
> > is  
> > > more about discovery.  
> > >  
> >  
> > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.  

I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have  
a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it  
isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).  
It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be  
useful there needs to be some substance.  

> > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at  
> > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency  
> > on  
> > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)  
> > >  
> >  
> > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers  
> > almost  
> > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be smart  
> > for  
> > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc  
> > outreach.  
> >  
> > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?  
> > >  
> >  
> > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on this,  
> > no.  
> >  
> >  
> > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and  
> > > outreach?  
> > >  
> >  
> > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.  

Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members  
watch this list.  

- Sam Ruby  

> > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05  
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > >  
> > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land  
> > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school  
> > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:  
> > >  
> > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an  
> > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy  
> > > to  
> > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.  
> > >  
> > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can  
> > open  
> > > a  
> > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official  
> > > experience of the ASF branding is?  
> > >  
> > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.  
> > >  
> > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as  
> > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility  
> > and  
> > > community values.  
> > >  
> > > Best  
> > > Andrew  
> > >  
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
> > >  
> > > > @Christian  
> > > >  
> > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of  
> > > defining  
> > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias,  
> > > but I  
> > > > think it’s definitely possible.  
> > > >  
> > > > @Matt  
> > > >  
> > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require  
> > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty  
> > > quickly.  
> > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington  
> > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This  
> > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions.  
> > > >  
> > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name  
> > change  
> > > as  
> > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large  
> > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand  
> > > the  
> > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech  
> > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are  
> > > retrofit  
> > > > at a slower burn.  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to  
> > pair/mob  
> > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular  
> > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)  
> > > >  
> > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put  
> > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07  
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > >  
> > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the  
> > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable  
> > > > places such as Java package names, every single released artifact,  
> > the  
> > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of  
> > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses,  
> > signing  
> > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure  
> > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks,  
> > and  
> > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.  
> > > >  
> > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy  
> > to  
> > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key  
> > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering  
> > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt  
> > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had  
> > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS  
> > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of  
> > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.  
> > > >  
> > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier  
> > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:  
> > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:  
> > > > > > Christian,  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a  
> > > spectacular  
> > > > idea.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since  
> > (I  
> > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?  
> > > > >  
> > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing  
> > > it  
> > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we  
> > > could  
> > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling,  
> > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Kind regards,  
> > > > > Christian  
> > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Ed Mangini  
> > > > > > me@emangini.com  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>  
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04  
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> Hello,  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:  
> > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo  
> > > Walter’s  
> > > > > >> > passion and statements.  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> +1  
> > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to  
> > > > accomplish.  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> +1  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in  
> > > > concert:  
> > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?  
> > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing  
> > to  
> > > > participate?  
> > > > > >> > - what does the community think?  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no  
> > > > return. If  
> > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s  
> > going  
> > > > to  
> > > > > >> > chum the waters.  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community  
> > > first-  
> > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding)  
> > vote  
> > > is  
> > > > - just checking sentiments.  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the  
> > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or  
> > > actually  
> > > > solve the issue.  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested  
> > in  
> > > > helping.  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> Cheers,  
> > > > > >> Christian  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>  
> > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03  
> > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <  
> > rubys@intertwingly.net>  
> > >  
> > > > wrote:  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?  
> > > What  
> > > > is  
> > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to  
> > > this  
> > > > issue and  
> > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I  
> > > > appreciate  
> > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak  
> > up,  
> > > > people  
> > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to  
> > undo  
> > > the  
> > > > harm  
> > > > > >> > they’ve caused.  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might  
> > > spur  
> > > > effort  
> > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me  
> > to  
> > > do  
> > > > the  
> > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the  
> > > details  
> > > > of the  
> > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors,  
> > so  
> > > in  
> > > > a lot  
> > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be  
> > > > done, but  
> > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary  
> > > technical  
> > > > and  
> > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a  
> > new  
> > > > logo or  
> > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t  
> > > > designed a  
> > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff  
> > and  
> > > > goals to  
> > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue  
> > > receiving  
> > > > corporate  
> > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh  
> > > the  
> > > > costs of  
> > > > > >> > action here.  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.  
> > > > > >> >  
> > > > > >> > Walter  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > > >>  
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > > > >>  
> > > >  
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > >  
> >  

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>]

Moving board to bcc.  Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
good idea.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Copying them now.
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> > @Andrew,
> >
> > How do we engage the board?
> >
> >
> > Ed Mangini
> > me@emangini.com
> >
> >
> > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Andrew,
> > >
> > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and
> > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick
> > effort
> > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling
> > is
> > > more about discovery.
> > >
> >
> > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.

I personally think a poll is premature.  At the moment, you don't have
a proposed name, scope, or size of effort.  Without a definition, it
isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
useful there needs to be some substance.

> > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at
> > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency
> > on
> > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > >
> >
> > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers
> > almost
> > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be smart
> > for
> > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc
> > outreach.
> >
> > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > >
> >
> > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on this,
> > no.
> >
> >
> > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and
> > > outreach?
> > >
> >
> > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.

Board decision will come much later.  Meanwhile, many board members
watch this list.

- Sam Ruby

> > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
> > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school
> > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:
> > >
> > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an
> > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy
> > > to
> > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > >
> > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can
> > open
> > > a
> > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
> > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > >
> > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > >
> > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as
> > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility
> > and
> > > community values.
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > @Christian
> > > >
> > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of
> > > defining
> > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias,
> > > but I
> > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > >
> > > > @Matt
> > > >
> > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require
> > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty
> > > quickly.
> > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington
> > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This
> > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions.
> > > >
> > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name
> > change
> > > as
> > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large
> > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand
> > > the
> > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech
> > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are
> > > retrofit
> > > > at a slower burn.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to
> > pair/mob
> > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular
> > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > >
> > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put
> > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the
> > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable
> > > > places such as Java package names, every single released artifact,
> > the
> > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of
> > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses,
> > signing
> > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks,
> > and
> > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > >
> > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy
> > to
> > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key
> > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt
> > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had
> > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS
> > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > spectacular
> > > > idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since
> > (I
> > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing
> > > it
> > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we
> > > could
> > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > >
> > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling,
> > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > Christian
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo
> > > Walter’s
> > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> +1
> > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to
> > > > accomplish.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> +1
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in
> > > > concert:
> > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing
> > to
> > > > participate?
> > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no
> > > > return. If
> > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s
> > going
> > > > to
> > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community
> > > first-
> > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding)
> > vote
> > > is
> > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the
> > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or
> > > actually
> > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested
> > in
> > > > helping.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?
> > > What
> > > > is
> > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to
> > > this
> > > > issue and
> > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I
> > > > appreciate
> > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak
> > up,
> > > > people
> > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to
> > undo
> > > the
> > > > harm
> > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might
> > > spur
> > > > effort
> > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me
> > to
> > > do
> > > > the
> > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the
> > > details
> > > > of the
> > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors,
> > so
> > > in
> > > > a lot
> > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be
> > > > done, but
> > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary
> > > technical
> > > > and
> > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a
> > new
> > > > logo or
> > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t
> > > > designed a
> > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff
> > and
> > > > goals to
> > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue
> > > receiving
> > > > corporate
> > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh
> > > the
> > > > costs of
> > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>]

Copying them now.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> @Andrew,
>
> How do we engage the board?
>
>
> Ed Mangini
> me@emangini.com
>
>
> From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> > Andrew,
> >
> > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and
> > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick
> effort
> > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling
> is
> > more about discovery.
> >
>
> I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
>
>
> > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at
> > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency
> on
> > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> >
>
> I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers
> almost
> every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be smart
> for
> the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc
> outreach.
>
> Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> >
>
> I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on this,
> no.
>
>
> > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and
> > outreach?
> >
>
> Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
> > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school
> > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:
> >
> > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an
> > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy
> > to
> > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> >
> > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can
> open
> > a
> > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
> > experience of the ASF branding is?
> >
> > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> >
> > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as
> > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility
> and
> > community values.
> >
> > Best
> > Andrew
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> >
> > > @Christian
> > >
> > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of
> > defining
> > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias,
> > but I
> > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > >
> > > @Matt
> > >
> > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require
> > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty
> > quickly.
> > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington
> > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This
> > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions.
> > >
> > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name
> change
> > as
> > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large
> > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand
> > the
> > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech
> > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are
> > retrofit
> > > at a slower burn.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to
> pair/mob
> > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular
> > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > >
> > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put
> > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the
> > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable
> > > places such as Java package names, every single released artifact,
> the
> > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of
> > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses,
> signing
> > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks,
> and
> > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > >
> > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy
> to
> > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key
> > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt
> > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had
> > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS
> > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > Christian,
> > > > >
> > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > spectacular
> > > idea.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since
> (I
> > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > >
> > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing
> > it
> > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we
> > could
> > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > >
> > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling,
> > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards,
> > > > Christian
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hello,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo
> > Walter’s
> > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> +1
> > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to
> > > accomplish.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> +1
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in
> > > concert:
> > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing
> to
> > > participate?
> > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no
> > > return. If
> > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s
> going
> > > to
> > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community
> > first-
> > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding)
> vote
> > is
> > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the
> > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or
> > actually
> > > solve the issue.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested
> in
> > > helping.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > >> Christian
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> rubys@intertwingly.net>
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?
> > What
> > > is
> > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to
> > this
> > > issue and
> > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I
> > > appreciate
> > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak
> up,
> > > people
> > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to
> undo
> > the
> > > harm
> > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might
> > spur
> > > effort
> > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me
> to
> > do
> > > the
> > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the
> > details
> > > of the
> > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors,
> so
> > in
> > > a lot
> > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be
> > > done, but
> > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary
> > technical
> > > and
> > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a
> new
> > > logo or
> > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t
> > > designed a
> > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff
> and
> > > goals to
> > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue
> > receiving
> > > corporate
> > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh
> > the
> > > costs of
> > > > >> > action here.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Walter
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

@Andrew, 

How do we engage the board? 


Ed Mangini
me@emangini.com


From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  

> Andrew,  
>  
> I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and  
> premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick effort  
> to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling is  
> more about discovery.  
>  

I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.  


> I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at  
> this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency on  
> the efforts (or some combination of both?)  
>  

I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers almost  
every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be smart for  
the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc  
outreach.  

Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?  
>  

I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on this, no.  


> Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and  
> outreach?  
>  

Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.  


>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05  
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
>  
> Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land  
> acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school  
> events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:  
>  
> I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an  
> unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy  
> to  
> bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.  
>  
> Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can open  
> a  
> dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official  
> experience of the ASF branding is?  
>  
> Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.  
>  
> The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as  
> insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility and  
> community values.  
>  
> Best  
> Andrew  
>  
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
>  
> > @Christian  
> >  
> > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of  
> defining  
> > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias,  
> but I  
> > think it’s definitely possible.  
> >  
> > @Matt  
> >  
> > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require  
> > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty  
> quickly.  
> > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington  
> > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This  
> > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions.  
> >  
> > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name change  
> as  
> > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large  
> > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand  
> the  
> > acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech  
> > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are  
> retrofit  
> > at a slower burn.  
> >  
> >  
> > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to pair/mob  
> > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular  
> > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)  
> >  
> > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put  
> > together a small tiger team to carry it out?  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07  
> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> >  
> > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the  
> > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable  
> > places such as Java package names, every single released artifact, the  
> > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of  
> > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses, signing  
> > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure  
> > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks, and  
> > surely other areas I'm forgetting.  
> >  
> > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy to  
> > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key  
> > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering  
> > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt  
> > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had  
> > about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS  
> > project that went through a name change and still has tons of  
> > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.  
> >  
> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier  
> > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:  
> > > > Christian,  
> > > >  
> > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a  
> spectacular  
> > idea.  
> > >  
> > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since (I  
> > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.  
> > >  
> > > >  
> > > > How do we go about kicking that off?  
> > >  
> > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing  
> it  
> > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we  
> could  
> > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@  
> > >  
> > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.  
> > >  
> > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling,  
> > since I didn't think of it as such :)  
> > >  
> > > Kind regards,  
> > > Christian  
> > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Ed Mangini  
> > > > me@emangini.com  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>  
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04  
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > >  
> > > >>  
> > > >> Hello,  
> > > >>  
> > > >>  
> > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:  
> > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo  
> Walter’s  
> > > >> > passion and statements.  
> > > >>  
> > > >> +1  
> > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to  
> > accomplish.  
> > > >>  
> > > >> +1  
> > > >>  
> > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in  
> > concert:  
> > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?  
> > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to  
> > participate?  
> > > >> > - what does the community think?  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no  
> > return. If  
> > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going  
> > to  
> > > >> > chum the waters.  
> > > >>  
> > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community  
> first-  
> > briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote  
> is  
> > - just checking sentiments.  
> > > >>  
> > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the  
> > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or  
> actually  
> > solve the issue.  
> > > >>  
> > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in  
> > helping.  
> > > >>  
> > > >> Cheers,  
> > > >> Christian  
> > > >>  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>  
> > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03  
> > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>  
>  
> > wrote:  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?  
> What  
> > is  
> > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to  
> this  
> > issue and  
> > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I  
> > appreciate  
> > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up,  
> > people  
> > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo  
> the  
> > harm  
> > > >> > they’ve caused.  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might  
> spur  
> > effort  
> > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to  
> do  
> > the  
> > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the  
> details  
> > of the  
> > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so  
> in  
> > a lot  
> > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be  
> > done, but  
> > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary  
> technical  
> > and  
> > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new  
> > logo or  
> > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t  
> > designed a  
> > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and  
> > goals to  
> > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue  
> receiving  
> > corporate  
> > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh  
> the  
> > costs of  
> > > >> > action here.  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.  
> > > >> >  
> > > >> > Walter  
> > > >>  
> > > >>  
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > > >>  
> >  
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> >  
> >  
>  

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> Andrew,
>
> I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and
> premature).  That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick effort
> to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling is
> more about discovery.
>

I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.


> I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at
> this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency on
> the efforts (or some combination of both?)
>

I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers almost
every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be smart for
the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc
outreach.

Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
>

I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on this, no.


> Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and
> outreach?
>

Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.


>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
> acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school
> events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:
>
> I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an
> unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy
> to
> bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
>
> Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can open
> a
> dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
> experience of the ASF branding is?
>
> Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
>
> The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as
> insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility and
> community values.
>
> Best
> Andrew
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> > @Christian
> >
> > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of
> defining
> > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias,
> but I
> > think it’s definitely possible.
> >
> > @Matt
> >
> > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require
> > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty
> quickly.
> > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington
> > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This
> > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions.
> >
> > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name change
> as
> > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large
> > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand
> the
> > acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech
> > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are
> retrofit
> > at a slower burn.
> >
> >
> > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to pair/mob
> > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular
> > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> >
> > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put
> > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the
> > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable
> > places such as Java package names, every single released artifact, the
> > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of
> > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses, signing
> > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks, and
> > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> >
> > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy to
> > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key
> > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt
> > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had
> > about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS
> > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > Christian,
> > > >
> > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> spectacular
> > idea.
> > >
> > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since (I
> > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > >
> > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing
> it
> > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we
> could
> > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > >
> > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.
> > >
> > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling,
> > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Christian
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > me@emangini.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Hello,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo
> Walter’s
> > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > >>
> > > >> +1
> > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to
> > accomplish.
> > > >>
> > > >> +1
> > > >>
> > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in
> > concert:
> > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to
> > participate?
> > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no
> > return. If
> > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going
> > to
> > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > >>
> > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community
> first-
> > briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote
> is
> > - just checking sentiments.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the
> > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or
> actually
> > solve the issue.
> > > >>
> > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in
> > helping.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >> Christian
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
>
> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?
> What
> > is
> > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to
> this
> > issue and
> > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I
> > appreciate
> > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up,
> > people
> > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo
> the
> > harm
> > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might
> spur
> > effort
> > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to
> do
> > the
> > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the
> details
> > of the
> > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so
> in
> > a lot
> > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be
> > done, but
> > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary
> technical
> > and
> > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new
> > logo or
> > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t
> > designed a
> > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and
> > goals to
> > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue
> receiving
> > corporate
> > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh
> the
> > costs of
> > > >> > action here.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Walter
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

Andrew, 

I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and premature).  That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick effort to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling is more about discovery. 

I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency on the efforts (or some combination of both?)

Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off? 

Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and outreach? 








From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land  
acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school  
events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:  

I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an  
unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy to  
bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.  

Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can open a  
dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official  
experience of the ASF branding is?  

Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.  

The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as  
insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility and  
community values.  

Best  
Andrew  

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  

> @Christian  
>  
> You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of defining  
> footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias, but I  
> think it’s definitely possible.  
>  
> @Matt  
>  
> I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require  
> stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty quickly.  
> I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington  
> Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This  
> definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions.  
>  
> I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name change as  
> separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large  
> organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand the  
> acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech  
> strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are retrofit  
> at a slower burn.  
>  
>  
> I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to pair/mob  
> (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular  
> psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)  
>  
> @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put  
> together a small tiger team to carry it out?  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>  
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07  
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
>  
> Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the  
> apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable  
> places such as Java package names, every single released artifact, the  
> software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of  
> ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses, signing  
> keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure  
> configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks, and  
> surely other areas I'm forgetting.  
>  
> If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy to  
> do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key  
> areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering  
> downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt  
> a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had  
> about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS  
> project that went through a name change and still has tons of  
> references to its old names due to compatibility issues.  
>  
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier  
> <gr...@apache.org> wrote:  
> >  
> >  
> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:  
> > > Christian,  
> > >  
> > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a spectacular  
> idea.  
> >  
> > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since (I  
> guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.  
> >  
> > >  
> > > How do we go about kicking that off?  
> >  
> > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing it  
> to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we could  
> vote on sending it, and then send it to members@  
> >  
> > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.  
> >  
> > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling,  
> since I didn't think of it as such :)  
> >  
> > Kind regards,  
> > Christian  
> >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Ed Mangini  
> > > me@emangini.com  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>  
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04  
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > >  
> > >>  
> > >> Hello,  
> > >>  
> > >>  
> > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:  
> > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s  
> > >> > passion and statements.  
> > >>  
> > >> +1  
> > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to  
> accomplish.  
> > >>  
> > >> +1  
> > >>  
> > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in  
> concert:  
> > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?  
> > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to  
> participate?  
> > >> > - what does the community think?  
> > >> >  
> > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no  
> return. If  
> > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going  
> to  
> > >> > chum the waters.  
> > >>  
> > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community first-  
> briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote is  
> - just checking sentiments.  
> > >>  
> > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the  
> outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or actually  
> solve the issue.  
> > >>  
> > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in  
> helping.  
> > >>  
> > >> Cheers,  
> > >> Christian  
> > >>  
> > >> >  
> > >> >  
> > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>  
> > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03  
> > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> > >> >  
> > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>  
> wrote:  
> > >> >  
> > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What  
> is  
> > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?  
> > >> >  
> > >> >  
> > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this  
> issue and  
> > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I  
> appreciate  
> > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up,  
> people  
> > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the  
> harm  
> > >> > they’ve caused.  
> > >> >  
> > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur  
> effort  
> > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do  
> the  
> > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details  
> of the  
> > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in  
> a lot  
> > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be  
> done, but  
> > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical  
> and  
> > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new  
> logo or  
> > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t  
> designed a  
> > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.  
> > >> >  
> > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and  
> goals to  
> > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving  
> corporate  
> > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the  
> costs of  
> > >> > action here.  
> > >> >  
> > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.  
> > >> >  
> > >> > Walter  
> > >>  
> > >>  
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> > >>  
>  
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
>  
>  

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

"Emphasize to empathize” feels like a DEI T-Shirt! :)


Ed Mangini
me@emangini.com


From: Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: May 4, 2022 at 12:22:46
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Cc: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>, Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

Emphasise - Empathise of course :)  

On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 6:17 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:  

> Cool.  
>  
> I am not really convinced by the total ~ 1 % of the "Trillions" movie  
> where the scenery is mostly with Greg recorded apparently close to the  
> place where he lives - in Austin Texas. Yeah I know - it sets the tone  
> maybe and the music is a bit suggestive.  
> But (at least when I look at it) it's more accidental and  
> subconscious than intended IMHO and still can be reverted by  
> conscious actions - for example re-cutting and re-posting the movie if it  
> bothers people who are much more "into this" (which we BTW would have to do  
> anyway if we want to change the logo as it is there through entire movie in  
> the bottom-right corner).  
>  
> And I think maybe the "de-association" might be the achievable interim  
> step on the road to full rebranding. Or maybe we can treat it as an  
> experiment that can be done in a short time without engaging multiple  
> people and starting a machinery for decades-long rebranding process. The  
> big risk with such huge projects to undertake is that they likely might get  
> stalled in the "idea" stage when there will not be enough time, power,  
> energy, will-power of people who would like to be engaged or it might be  
> prolonged by procedural issues and "impossibilities". As much as I might  
> emphasise with someone who is dead clear on "we have to go full on  
> rebranding", the fact of life is that such huge efforts more often than not  
> simply fail and eventually 0% of the goal is achieved.  
>  
> At the end we can deliberate a lot and have opinions, but if we can do  
> something "faster" that gets us into the right direction, and if we can  
> rather quickly verify the direction (and maybe running some verification,  
> polls, reaching out after that to see if we achieved something).  
>  
> As much as I am fully for "disagree but engage" (my version of the  
> saying), I am all for experimenting and trying to fix things incrementally  
> (and seeing effect of it on the way) rather than venturing in to decades  
> long effort when we do not even know if it's needed and whether maybe 90%  
> of the effect can be achieved with 10% of the effort and time. I think  
> "achievability" is a very important aspect of this discussion and I'd only  
> appeal to the reason of people doing it (maybe including myself at some  
> time) to be aware that going "full rebranding" is not the only option, and  
> if the goal is to improve things, it might fail at "0%" stage if it is the  
> only option considered.  
>  
> J.  
>  
> On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 4:17 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:  
>  
>> Bertrand, this is fantastic.  
>>  
>> I’m more than happy to assist w/ a strategy, approach, prep and board  
>> preso.  
>>  
>> Something that is worth mentioning up front is that whatever the outcome,  
>> there are going to be protractors and detractors. Unanimous support is  
>> challenging to achieve, and quite rare. Whatever the outcome, we have to be  
>> prepared to “disagree and commit” (i.e. support the majority even if the  
>> outcome isn’t specifically what we had hoped for).  
>>  
>> There are many possibilities from no change to wholesale rebranding (even  
>> some we haven’t thought of). The cool thing about change is that as long as  
>> we remain open to it, changes today don’t stop us from making more changes  
>> tomorrow!  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>  
>> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
>> Date: May 4, 2022 at 05:10:53  
>> To: dev <de...@community.apache.org>  
>> Cc: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>  
>> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
>>  
>> Hi,  
>>  
>> (Bcc people who have been active in the wiki page mentioned below)  
>>  
>> Le ven. 29 avr. 2022 à 16:14, Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> a écrit  
>> :  
>> > ...Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can  
>> open a  
>> > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official  
>> > experience of the ASF branding is?...  
>>  
>> I think that would be very useful, helping us hear from leaders who  
>> have standing in the cause.  
>>  
>> Note that this was discussed earlier at [1] which has an initial list  
>> of Apache Nations that could be contacted. Access restricted to ASF  
>> members as the page contains contact information.  
>>  
>> If a team of ASF members wants to make this happen, I'm willing to  
>> bring the topic to the Board and would support giving that team an  
>> official status to help them do that outreach.  
>>  
>> Next step would be for you and other interested Members to form a team  
>> and present their action plan to the Board.  
>>  
>> -Bertrand  
>>  
>> [1]  
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Outreach+to+the+Apache+Nations  
>>  
>>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
>>  
>>  

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>]

Emphasise - Empathise of course :)

On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 6:17 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:

> Cool.
>
> I am not really convinced by the total ~ 1 % of the "Trillions" movie
> where the scenery is mostly with Greg recorded apparently close to the
> place where he lives - in Austin Texas. Yeah I know - it sets the tone
> maybe and the music is a bit suggestive.
> But (at least when I look at it) it's more accidental and
> subconscious than intended IMHO and still can be reverted by
> conscious actions - for example re-cutting and re-posting the movie if it
> bothers people who are much more "into this" (which we BTW would have to do
> anyway if we want to change the logo as it is there through entire movie in
> the bottom-right corner).
>
> And I think maybe the "de-association" might be the achievable interim
> step on the road to full rebranding. Or maybe we can treat it as an
> experiment that can be done in a short time without engaging multiple
> people and starting a machinery for decades-long rebranding process. The
> big risk with such huge projects to undertake is that they likely might get
> stalled in the "idea" stage when there will not be enough time, power,
> energy, will-power of people who would like to be engaged or it might be
> prolonged by procedural issues and "impossibilities". As much as I might
> emphasise with someone who is dead clear on "we have to go full on
> rebranding", the fact of life is that such huge efforts more often than not
> simply fail and eventually 0% of the goal is achieved.
>
> At the end we can deliberate a lot and have opinions, but if we can do
> something "faster" that gets us into the right direction, and if we can
> rather quickly verify the direction (and maybe running some verification,
> polls, reaching out after that to see if we achieved something).
>
> As much as I am fully for "disagree but engage" (my version of the
> saying), I am all for experimenting and trying to fix things incrementally
> (and seeing effect of it on the way) rather than venturing in to decades
> long effort when we do not even know if it's needed and whether maybe 90%
> of the effect can be achieved with 10% of the effort and time. I think
> "achievability" is a very important aspect of this discussion and I'd only
> appeal to the reason of people doing it (maybe including myself at some
> time) to be aware that going "full rebranding" is not the only option, and
> if the goal is to improve things, it might fail at "0%" stage if it is the
> only option considered.
>
> J.
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 4:17 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
>> Bertrand, this is fantastic.
>>
>> I’m more than happy to assist w/ a strategy, approach, prep and board
>> preso.
>>
>> Something that is worth mentioning up front is that whatever the outcome,
>> there are going to be protractors and detractors. Unanimous support is
>> challenging to achieve, and quite rare. Whatever the outcome, we have to be
>> prepared to “disagree and commit” (i.e. support the majority even if the
>> outcome isn’t specifically what we had hoped for).
>>
>> There are many possibilities from no change to wholesale rebranding (even
>> some we haven’t thought of). The cool thing about change is that as long as
>> we remain open to it, changes today don’t stop us from making more changes
>> tomorrow!
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
>> Date: May 4, 2022 at 05:10:53
>> To: dev <de...@community.apache.org>
>> Cc: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
>> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> (Bcc people who have been active in the wiki page mentioned below)
>>
>> Le ven. 29 avr. 2022 à 16:14, Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> a écrit
>> :
>> > ...Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can
>> open a
>> > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
>> > experience of the ASF branding is?...
>>
>> I think that would be very useful, helping us hear from leaders who
>> have standing in the cause.
>>
>> Note that this was discussed earlier at [1] which has an initial list
>> of Apache Nations that could be contacted. Access restricted to ASF
>> members as the page contains contact information.
>>
>> If a team of ASF members wants to make this happen, I'm willing to
>> bring the topic to the Board and would support giving that team an
>> official status to help them do that outreach.
>>
>> Next step would be for you and other interested Members to form a team
>> and present their action plan to the Board.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> [1]
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Outreach+to+the+Apache+Nations
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>]

Cool.

I am not really convinced by the total ~ 1 % of the "Trillions" movie where
the scenery is mostly with Greg recorded apparently close to the place
where he lives - in Austin Texas. Yeah I know - it sets the tone maybe and
the music is a bit suggestive.
But (at least when I look at it) it's more accidental and subconscious than
intended IMHO and still can be reverted by conscious actions - for example
re-cutting and re-posting the movie if it bothers people who are much more
"into this" (which we BTW would have to do anyway if we want to change the
logo as it is there through entire movie in the bottom-right corner).

And I think maybe the "de-association" might be the achievable interim step
on the road to full rebranding. Or maybe we can treat it as an experiment
that can be done in a short time without engaging multiple people and
starting a machinery for decades-long rebranding process. The big risk with
such huge projects to undertake is that they likely might get stalled in
the "idea" stage when there will not be enough time, power, energy,
will-power of people who would like to be engaged or it might be prolonged
by procedural issues and "impossibilities". As much as I might emphasise
with someone who is dead clear on "we have to go full on rebranding", the
fact of life is that such huge efforts more often than not simply fail and
eventually 0% of the goal is achieved.

At the end we can deliberate a lot and have opinions, but if we can do
something "faster" that gets us into the right direction, and if we can
rather quickly verify the direction (and maybe running some verification,
polls, reaching out after that to see if we achieved something).

As much as I am fully for "disagree but engage" (my version of the saying),
I am all for experimenting and trying to fix things incrementally (and
seeing effect of it on the way) rather than venturing in to decades long
effort when we do not even know if it's needed and whether maybe 90% of the
effect can be achieved with 10% of the effort and time. I think
"achievability" is a very important aspect of this discussion and I'd only
appeal to the reason of people doing it (maybe including myself at some
time) to be aware that going "full rebranding" is not the only option, and
if the goal is to improve things, it might fail at "0%" stage if it is the
only option considered.

J.

On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 4:17 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> Bertrand, this is fantastic.
>
> I’m more than happy to assist w/ a strategy, approach, prep and board
> preso.
>
> Something that is worth mentioning up front is that whatever the outcome,
> there are going to be protractors and detractors. Unanimous support is
> challenging to achieve, and quite rare. Whatever the outcome, we have to be
> prepared to “disagree and commit” (i.e. support the majority even if the
> outcome isn’t specifically what we had hoped for).
>
> There are many possibilities from no change to wholesale rebranding (even
> some we haven’t thought of). The cool thing about change is that as long as
> we remain open to it, changes today don’t stop us from making more changes
> tomorrow!
>
>
>
> From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: May 4, 2022 at 05:10:53
> To: dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> Cc: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Hi,
>
> (Bcc people who have been active in the wiki page mentioned below)
>
> Le ven. 29 avr. 2022 à 16:14, Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> a écrit
> :
> > ...Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can
> open a
> > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
> > experience of the ASF branding is?...
>
> I think that would be very useful, helping us hear from leaders who
> have standing in the cause.
>
> Note that this was discussed earlier at [1] which has an initial list
> of Apache Nations that could be contacted. Access restricted to ASF
> members as the page contains contact information.
>
> If a team of ASF members wants to make this happen, I'm willing to
> bring the topic to the Board and would support giving that team an
> official status to help them do that outreach.
>
> Next step would be for you and other interested Members to form a team
> and present their action plan to the Board.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [1]
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Outreach+to+the+Apache+Nations
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

Bertrand, this is fantastic. 

I’m more than happy to assist w/ a strategy, approach, prep and board preso. 

Something that is worth mentioning up front is that whatever the outcome, there are going to be protractors and detractors. Unanimous support is challenging to achieve, and quite rare. Whatever the outcome, we have to be prepared to “disagree and commit” (i.e. support the majority even if the outcome isn’t specifically what we had hoped for). 

There are many possibilities from no change to wholesale rebranding (even some we haven’t thought of). The cool thing about change is that as long as we remain open to it, changes today don’t stop us from making more changes tomorrow!



From: Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: May 4, 2022 at 05:10:53
To: dev <de...@community.apache.org>
Cc: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

Hi,  

(Bcc people who have been active in the wiki page mentioned below)  

Le ven. 29 avr. 2022 à 16:14, Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> a écrit :  
> ...Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can open a  
> dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official  
> experience of the ASF branding is?...  

I think that would be very useful, helping us hear from leaders who  
have standing in the cause.  

Note that this was discussed earlier at [1] which has an initial list  
of Apache Nations that could be contacted. Access restricted to ASF  
members as the page contains contact information.  

If a team of ASF members wants to make this happen, I'm willing to  
bring the topic to the Board and would support giving that team an  
official status to help them do that outreach.  

Next step would be for you and other interested Members to form a team  
and present their action plan to the Board.  

-Bertrand  

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Outreach+to+the+Apache+Nations  

---------------------------------------------------------------------  
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

(Bcc people who have been active in the wiki page mentioned below)

Le ven. 29 avr. 2022 à 16:14, Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org> a écrit :
> ...Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can open a
> dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
> experience of the ASF branding is?...

I think that would be very useful, helping us hear from leaders who
have standing in the cause.

Note that this was discussed earlier at [1] which has an initial list
of Apache Nations that could be contacted. Access restricted to ASF
members as the page contains contact information.

If a team of ASF members wants to make this happen, I'm willing to
bring the topic to the Board and would support giving that team an
official status to help them do that outreach.

Next step would be for you and other interested Members to form a team
and present their action plan to the Board.

-Bertrand

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/ASFP/Outreach+to+the+Apache+Nations

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>]

Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school
events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this:

I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an
unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy to
bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.

Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can open a
dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
experience of the ASF branding is?

Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.

The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as
insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility and
community values.

Best
Andrew

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:

> @Christian
>
> You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of defining
> footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias, but I
> think it’s definitely possible.
>
> @Matt
>
> I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require
> stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty quickly.
> I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington
> Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This
> definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions.
>
> I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name change as
> separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large
> organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand the
> acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech
> strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are retrofit
> at a slower burn.
>
>
> I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to pair/mob
> (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular
> psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
>
> @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put
> together a small tiger team to carry it out?
>
>
>
>
> From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the
> apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable
> places such as Java package names, every single released artifact, the
> software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of
> ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses, signing
> keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks, and
> surely other areas I'm forgetting.
>
> If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy to
> do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key
> areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt
> a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had
> about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS
> project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > Christian,
> > >
> > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a spectacular
> idea.
> >
> > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since (I
> guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> >
> > >
> > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> >
> > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing it
> to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we could
> vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> >
> > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.
> >
> > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling,
> since I didn't think of it as such :)
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Christian
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ed Mangini
> > > me@emangini.com
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s
> > >> > passion and statements.
> > >>
> > >> +1
> > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to
> accomplish.
> > >>
> > >> +1
> > >>
> > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in
> concert:
> > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to
> participate?
> > >> > - what does the community think?
> > >> >
> > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no
> return. If
> > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going
> to
> > >> > chum the waters.
> > >>
> > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community first-
> briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote is
> - just checking sentiments.
> > >>
> > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the
> outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or actually
> solve the issue.
> > >>
> > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in
> helping.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Christian
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > >> >
> > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What
> is
> > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this
> issue and
> > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I
> appreciate
> > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up,
> people
> > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the
> harm
> > >> > they’ve caused.
> > >> >
> > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur
> effort
> > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do
> the
> > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details
> of the
> > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in
> a lot
> > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be
> done, but
> > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical
> and
> > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new
> logo or
> > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t
> designed a
> > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.
> > >> >
> > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and
> goals to
> > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving
> corporate
> > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the
> costs of
> > >> > action here.
> > >> >
> > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > >> >
> > >> > Walter
> > >>
> > >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

@Christian

You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of defining footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias, but I think it’s definitely possible. 

@Matt

I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty quickly. I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions. 

I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name change as separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand the acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are retrofit at a slower burn. 


I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to pair/mob (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)

@Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put together a small tiger team to carry it out? 




From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the  
apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable  
places such as Java package names, every single released artifact, the  
software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of  
ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses, signing  
keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure  
configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks, and  
surely other areas I'm forgetting.  

If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy to  
do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key  
areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering  
downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt  
a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had  
about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS  
project that went through a name change and still has tons of  
references to its old names due to compatibility issues.  

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier  
<gr...@apache.org> wrote:  
>  
>  
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:  
> > Christian,  
> >  
> > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a spectacular idea.  
>  
> Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since (I guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.  
>  
> >  
> > How do we go about kicking that off?  
>  
> I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing it to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we could vote on sending it, and then send it to members@  
>  
> Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.  
>  
> Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling, since I didn't think of it as such :)  
>  
> Kind regards,  
> Christian  
>  
> >  
> >  
> > Ed Mangini  
> > me@emangini.com  
> >  
> >  
> > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>  
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04  
> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> >  
> >>  
> >> Hello,  
> >>  
> >>  
> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:  
> >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s  
> >> > passion and statements.  
> >>  
> >> +1  
> >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to accomplish.  
> >>  
> >> +1  
> >>  
> >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in concert:  
> >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?  
> >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to participate?  
> >> > - what does the community think?  
> >> >  
> >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no return. If  
> >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going to  
> >> > chum the waters.  
> >>  
> >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community first- briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote is - just checking sentiments.  
> >>  
> >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or actually solve the issue.  
> >>  
> >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in helping.  
> >>  
> >> Cheers,  
> >> Christian  
> >>  
> >> >  
> >> >  
> >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>  
> >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03  
> >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name  
> >> >  
> >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:  
> >> >  
> >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is  
> >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?  
> >> >  
> >> >  
> >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and  
> >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I appreciate  
> >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up, people  
> >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the harm  
> >> > they’ve caused.  
> >> >  
> >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur effort  
> >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do the  
> >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details of the  
> >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in a lot  
> >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be done, but  
> >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical and  
> >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new logo or  
> >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t designed a  
> >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.  
> >> >  
> >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and goals to  
> >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving corporate  
> >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the costs of  
> >> > action here.  
> >> >  
> >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.  
> >> >  
> >> > Walter  
> >>  
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------  
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org  
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org  
> >>  

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>]

Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the
apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable
places such as Java package names, every single released artifact, the
software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of
ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses, signing
keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks, and
surely other areas I'm forgetting.

If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy to
do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key
areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt
a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had
about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS
project that went through a name change and still has tons of
references to its old names due to compatibility issues.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > Christian,
> >
> > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a spectacular idea.
>
> Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since (I guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
>
> >
> > How do we go about kicking that off?
>
> I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing it to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we could vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
>
> Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.
>
> Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling, since I didn't think of it as such :)
>
> Kind regards,
> Christian
>
> >
> >
> > Ed Mangini
> > me@emangini.com
> >
> >
> > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s
> >> > passion and statements.
> >>
> >> +1
> >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to accomplish.
> >>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in concert:
> >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to participate?
> >> > - what does the community think?
> >> >
> >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no return. If
> >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going to
> >> > chum the waters.
> >>
> >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community first- briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote is - just checking sentiments.
> >>
> >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or actually solve the issue.
> >>
> >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in helping.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Christian
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> >> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is
> >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and
> >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I appreciate
> >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up, people
> >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the harm
> >> > they’ve caused.
> >> >
> >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur effort
> >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do the
> >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details of the
> >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in a lot
> >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be done, but
> >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical and
> >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new logo or
> >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t designed a
> >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.
> >> >
> >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and goals to
> >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving corporate
> >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the costs of
> >> > action here.
> >> >
> >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> >> >
> >> > Walter
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >>

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> Christian, 
> 
> Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a spectacular idea. 

Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since (I guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.

> 
> How do we go about kicking that off? 

I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing it to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we could vote on sending it, and then send it to members@

Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it.

Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling, since I didn't think of it as such :)

Kind regards,
Christian

> 
> 
> Ed Mangini
> me@emangini.com
> 
> 
> From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name 
> 
>> 
>> Hello, 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote: 
>> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s 
>> > passion and statements. 
>> 
>> +1 
>> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to accomplish.  
>> 
>> +1 
>> 
>> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in concert:  
>> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?  
>> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to participate?  
>> > - what does the community think?  
>> > 
>> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no return. If 
>> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going to 
>> > chum the waters. 
>> 
>> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community first- briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote is - just checking sentiments. 
>> 
>> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or actually solve the issue. 
>> 
>> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in helping. 
>> 
>> Cheers, 
>> Christian 
>> 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com> 
>> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org> 
>> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03 
>> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org> 
>> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name 
>> > 
>> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote: 
>> > 
>> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is 
>> >> your plan? What resources do you need? 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and 
>> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I appreciate 
>> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up, people 
>> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the harm 
>> > they’ve caused. 
>> > 
>> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur effort 
>> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do the 
>> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details of the 
>> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in a lot 
>> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be done, but 
>> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical and 
>> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new logo or 
>> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t designed a 
>> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try. 
>> > 
>> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and goals to 
>> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving corporate 
>> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the costs of 
>> > action here. 
>> > 
>> > Let me know what else I can do to help. 
>> > 
>> > Walter 
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org 
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org 
>> 

Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

Christian, 

Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a spectacular idea. 

How do we go about kicking that off? 


Ed Mangini
me@emangini.com


From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

Hello,  


On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:  
> The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s  
> passion and statements.  

+1  
> I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to accomplish.   

+1  

> Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in concert:   
> - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?   
> - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to participate?   
> - what does the community think?   
>  
> I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no return. If  
> we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going to  
> chum the waters.  

Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community first- briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote is - just checking sentiments.  

I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or actually solve the issue.  

Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in helping.  

Cheers,  
Christian  

>  
>  
> From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>  
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03  
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>  
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  
>  
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:  
>  
>> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is  
>> your plan? What resources do you need?  
>  
>  
> Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and  
> the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I appreciate  
> your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up, people  
> would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the harm  
> they’ve caused.  
>  
> ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur effort  
> for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do the  
> work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details of the  
> organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in a lot  
> of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be done, but  
> I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical and  
> design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new logo or  
> whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t designed a  
> logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.  
>  
> I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and goals to  
> increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving corporate  
> donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the costs of  
> action here.  
>  
> Let me know what else I can do to help.  
>  
> Walter  

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>]

Hello,


On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s 
> passion and statements. 

+1 
> I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to accomplish. 

+1 

> Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in concert: 
> - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming? 
> - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to participate? 
> - what does the community think? 
>
> I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no return. If 
> we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going to 
> chum the waters. 

Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community first- briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) vote is - just checking sentiments.

I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds.  But based on the outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or actually solve the issue.

Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested in helping.

Cheers,
Christian

>
>
> From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  
>
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:  
>
>> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is  
>> your plan? What resources do you need?  
>
>
> Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and  
> the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I appreciate  
> your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up, people  
> would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the harm  
> they’ve caused.  
>
> ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur effort  
> for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do the  
> work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details of the  
> organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in a lot  
> of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be done, but  
> I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical and  
> design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new logo or  
> whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t designed a  
> logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.  
>
> I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and goals to  
> increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving corporate  
> donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the costs of  
> action here.  
>
> Let me know what else I can do to help.  
>
> Walter

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

Happy Thursday folks!

I think we have the make of a great fireside/barstool conversation. 

The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s passion and statements. [Tangentially, there is a marketing opportunity to rebrand the organization as “first” OSS entity. Maybe it isn’t chronologically, but when thinking about OSS, I can’t think of any organizations that have made such broad contributions with as much temporal longevity as ASF]

I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to accomplish. 

Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in concert: 
- what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming? 
- are there enough volunteers within the organization willing to participate? 
- what does the community think? 

I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no return. If we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s going to chum the waters. It  effectively creates a countdown. It also changes the narrative around our response from “We decided to do this because it was the right thing to do” from “We’re doing this because you asked us to”. DEI is more about the former.  

Who can help us get these answers? 


From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:  

> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is  
> your plan? What resources do you need?  


Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and  
the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I appreciate  
your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up, people  
would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the harm  
they’ve caused.  

ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur effort  
for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do the  
work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details of the  
organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in a lot  
of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be done, but  
I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical and  
design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new logo or  
whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t designed a  
logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.  

I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and goals to  
increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving corporate  
donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the costs of  
action here.  

Let me know what else I can do to help.  

Walter  

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>]

On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:

> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?  What is
> your plan?  What resources do you need?


Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and
the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I appreciate
your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak up, people
would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to undo the harm
they’ve caused.

ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might spur effort
for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me to do the
work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the details of the
organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, so in a lot
of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be done, but
I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary technical and
design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a new logo or
whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t designed a
logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try.

I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff and goals to
increase the diversity of its contributors and continue receiving corporate
donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh the costs of
action here.

Let me know what else I can do to help.

Walter

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>]

A name change would be a lot of work.

Put another way, the only way such a change will occur is if there are
volunteers willing to see it through.

Stating the problem with the hopes that somebody else solves it
generally doesn't produce a satisfactory outcome.

Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do?  What is
your plan?  What resources do you need?

- Sam Ruby

On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 9:00 PM Walter Cameron
<wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> When the Apache Group named itself and its software Apache, they were
> continuing a long-practiced North American settler tradition of
> appropriating Native identity as a costume for their own causes. An
> environment filled with propaganda including everything from Hollywood
> media to music festivals and children’s summer camps enabled them to feel
> entitled to play Indian.
>
> The feather logo, meant to symbolize this community was clearly chosen for
> its association with Native people and their cultures. In the US feathers
> from many birds are highly regulated by the Feds, a lasting legacy of
> attempts at suppressing Indigenous cultures. In the 1970’s the Washington
> Redskins had a feather logo. After protests from Native people complaining
> about the name and the indignity of a feather being used to represent
> people, the team commissioned a Native artist to redraw one of their older
> “Indian head” logos instead of doing the right thing and changing the name
> and branding entirely.
>
> There’s no respectful way to use other people, let alone survivors of
> genocide, as a costume for your own causes. ASF’s mascotry has spawned its
> own niche of digital redface in projects like Apache Geronimo and Apache
> Arrow and no doubt inspired many others to use similar stereotyping. It’s
> almost a cliché to say but imagine substituting a different group with
> different stereotypes to use as branding.
>
> As a developer I recognize that ASF is involved in some of the most
> influential software out there. But as a Tlingit with the privilege of
> living on Lingít Aaní I can’t discuss ASF or its projects without cringing.
> By now there have been multiple peer-reviewed studies outlining the direct
> and indirect harm that Native mascotry causes Native and non-Native people.
> Schools, commercial products, and professional sports teams have changed
> their names and rebranded. It’s long past time for ASF to do the same.
>
> Gunalchéesh,
> Walter Cameron

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Re: It’s time to change the name

[me <me...@emangini.com>]

The ASF is most definitely trademarked: https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/. That said, I’m not sure this is salient. High schools aren’t trademarked, yet there are substantial renaming efforts being carried out. (There’s a fun coincidence I’ll get to in a bit).

There are a lot of folks who agree w/ the sentiment that it pays homage. It’s documented as such on our page. 

(As an aside, would you like your family or culture referred to as “a patchy” family? Or “a patchy” culture?) I can think of a lot of cute things that were used in a racially disparaging manner. 


  

To your point, I think there are definitely parallels between open source and indigenous people, however not everyone sees it that way.  Perspective can be as nuanced as a snowflake, and correlation isn’t always indicative of a positive or even desirable relationship: https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations


Wakefield, MA (Where Apache was founded, and ~10 minutes from where I’m standing), has the mascot of Warriors. While it remains, it was up for a vote just a year ago (almost to the day) , and it was *very* close. https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/04/28/wakefield-warrior-logo-should-stay-voters-say-in-divisive-vote-over-native-american-school-mascot/. While the mascot remains, the fact that it is a polarizing subject at every levels of our culture isn’t hard to justify. 


The Atlanta Braves fanbase is also starting to feel pressure to change w/ the Cleveland Guardians rename last year.  (There aren’t many virtues regarded with greater esteem than bravery). 


The debate isn’t about whether or not we have good or bad intentions, its about whether or not we have the right to do so. This ties into Andrews suggestion of outreach. While I’m sure these represent extremes, it’s possible we could experience outcomes from receiving full endorsement to being sued. 







Ed Mangini
me@emangini.com


From: Owen Rubel <or...@gmail.com>
Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Date: April 29, 2022 at 11:57:29
To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name  

With respect, Apache is not trademarked nor is it proprietary.  

It also represents free software. I fail to see how this would be  
disrespectful. In fact the fight against large corporate takeover with OS  
licenses and Open Source would seem to align well especially considering  
stories like 'wounded knee' (I would think). But please correct me if I am  
wrong.  

I dont think Apache does this out of disrespect but out of homage; an  
homage of serving their people.  

In that sense, the Apache and the Apache Org are very much aligned.  

Is there a way in which you feel Apache does not serve people and  
disrespects the Apache tribe? Can you list instances that can be resolved?  

Owen Rubel  
orubel@gmail.com  


On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:00 PM Walter Cameron <  
walter.lists@waltercameron.com> wrote:  

> Hello all,  
>  
> When the Apache Group named itself and its software Apache, they were  
> continuing a long-practiced North American settler tradition of  
> appropriating Native identity as a costume for their own causes. An  
> environment filled with propaganda including everything from Hollywood  
> media to music festivals and children’s summer camps enabled them to feel  
> entitled to play Indian.  
>  
> The feather logo, meant to symbolize this community was clearly chosen for  
> its association with Native people and their cultures. In the US feathers  
> from many birds are highly regulated by the Feds, a lasting legacy of  
> attempts at suppressing Indigenous cultures. In the 1970’s the Washington  
> Redskins had a feather logo. After protests from Native people complaining  
> about the name and the indignity of a feather being used to represent  
> people, the team commissioned a Native artist to redraw one of their older  
> “Indian head” logos instead of doing the right thing and changing the name  
> and branding entirely.  
>  
> There’s no respectful way to use other people, let alone survivors of  
> genocide, as a costume for your own causes. ASF’s mascotry has spawned its  
> own niche of digital redface in projects like Apache Geronimo and Apache  
> Arrow and no doubt inspired many others to use similar stereotyping. It’s  
> almost a cliché to say but imagine substituting a different group with  
> different stereotypes to use as branding.  
>  
> As a developer I recognize that ASF is involved in some of the most  
> influential software out there. But as a Tlingit with the privilege of  
> living on Lingít Aaní I can’t discuss ASF or its projects without cringing.  
> By now there have been multiple peer-reviewed studies outlining the direct  
> and indirect harm that Native mascotry causes Native and non-Native people.  
> Schools, commercial products, and professional sports teams have changed  
> their names and rebranded. It’s long past time for ASF to do the same.  
>  
> Gunalchéesh,  
> Walter Cameron  
>  

Re: It’s time to change the name

[Owen Rubel <or...@gmail.com>]

With respect, Apache is not trademarked nor is it proprietary.

It also represents free software. I fail to see how this would be
disrespectful. In fact the fight against large corporate takeover with OS
licenses and Open Source would seem to align well especially considering
stories like 'wounded knee' (I would think). But please correct me if I am
wrong.

I dont think Apache does this out of disrespect but out of homage; an
homage of serving their people.

In that sense, the Apache and the Apache Org are very much aligned.

Is there a way in which you feel Apache does not serve people and
disrespects the Apache tribe? Can you list instances that can be resolved?

Owen Rubel
orubel@gmail.com


On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:00 PM Walter Cameron <
walter.lists@waltercameron.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> When the Apache Group named itself and its software Apache, they were
> continuing a long-practiced North American settler tradition of
> appropriating Native identity as a costume for their own causes. An
> environment filled with propaganda including everything from Hollywood
> media to music festivals and children’s summer camps enabled them to feel
> entitled to play Indian.
>
> The feather logo, meant to symbolize this community was clearly chosen for
> its association with Native people and their cultures. In the US feathers
> from many birds are highly regulated by the Feds, a lasting legacy of
> attempts at suppressing Indigenous cultures. In the 1970’s the Washington
> Redskins had a feather logo. After protests from Native people complaining
> about the name and the indignity of a feather being used to represent
> people, the team commissioned a Native artist to redraw one of their older
> “Indian head” logos instead of doing the right thing and changing the name
> and branding entirely.
>
> There’s no respectful way to use other people, let alone survivors of
> genocide, as a costume for your own causes. ASF’s mascotry has spawned its
> own niche of digital redface in projects like Apache Geronimo and Apache
> Arrow and no doubt inspired many others to use similar stereotyping. It’s
> almost a cliché to say but imagine substituting a different group with
> different stereotypes to use as branding.
>
> As a developer I recognize that ASF is involved in some of the most
> influential software out there. But as a Tlingit with the privilege of
> living on Lingít Aaní I can’t discuss ASF or its projects without cringing.
> By now there have been multiple peer-reviewed studies outlining the direct
> and indirect harm that Native mascotry causes Native and non-Native people.
> Schools, commercial products, and professional sports teams have changed
> their names and rebranded. It’s long past time for ASF to do the same.
>
> Gunalchéesh,
> Walter Cameron
>