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Posted to dev@turbine.apache.org by Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de> on 2015/09/24 10:03:36 UTC
[DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Hi all!
to restart an older discussion (What happens after M1?) I have some more
(naive) questions about this.
Should Turbine support/be runnable in a OSGI container?
Should this become a main focus of the next release?
-> Create a new JIRA issue (feature request)!
Some more questions, which came into my mind are:
- What would be the Proof of Concept for OSGI support? E.g. deploying into
Apache Karaf (light weight OSGI)?
- Configuration is up to now done using Yaafi component. Could
Turbine/Yaafi/Avalon Container include a Service Registry?
E.g. something like http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/PojoSR,
https://code.google.com/p/pojosr/wiki/Usage)? Dow e need support for
Declarative Services/ Blueprint OSGI? Would it more easy to use these
standards instead?
- Refactoring: Do we need more than one Turbine bundle? E.g. expose an
interface bundle and an implementation bundle? Some pPackage refactoring
may be required at least.
- Classloading: Cft. to http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/Avoid_Classloader_Hacks
). There is an interesting discussion about class loading issues:
http://www.mail-archive.com/users@felix.apache.org/msg05231.html.
Class.forName classloading should be checked
- Do we need Servicemix OSGI-enabled packages for dependencies?
More helpful Infos, especially for Fulcrum Components:
https://wiki.apache.org/commons/CommonsOsgi,
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMMONSSITE-23, and commons-logging
is a special case..
Best regards, Georg
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Antwort: Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Posted by Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de>.
Hi all,
@Thomas
true, support for Servlet 3.x, that´s of course a good point (for the next
major release?). OSGI as a concept and the various kinds of how to
implement it (declarative services, activator..) have enough inertia (I
think), that I got curious and I am still thinking, there is some value to
explore this more (I´ll check the proposal, of course). If it would be of
a bigger value to get Turbine running in an OSGi environment, I don´t know
and to get Turbine running there, with all whistles and bells would be
probably a major release. At the end, support for the new servlet features
are more in line with how Turbine is currenty used.
@Jürgen
Running another container (of type OSGi) in Tomcat may be possible, but
makes not so much sense, I agree. And what OSGi addresses could may be
better achieved with support for modular concepts in Java 9, true!
@Siegfried Thanks for the Avalon explanation and the hint to Spring (I
forgot about it). I think this summarizes and justifies, why we still use
Avalon. It is a robust and simple container.
Thanks!
Best regards, Georg
Von: Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>
An: Turbine Developers List <de...@turbine.apache.org>
Datum: 25.09.2015 08:05
Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Hi Georg,
On 24.09.15 10:03, Georg Kallidis wrote:
> Hi all!
> to restart an older discussion (What happens after M1?) I have some more
> (naive) questions about this.
> Should Turbine support/be runnable in a OSGI container?
I wrote a proof-of-concept implementation of a OSGi service provider for
Turbine based on Apache Felix. You can find it in proposals/tv/osgi It
makes OSGI services available to a Turbine application. With some
polishing and some testing this could be included into Turbine Core.
I don't see much advantage in running Turbine in an OSGi environment.
I'd rather focus on the new servlet features such as async processing
and web socket.
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>.
Hi Georg,
On 24.09.15 10:03, Georg Kallidis wrote:
> Hi all!
> to restart an older discussion (What happens after M1?) I have some more
> (naive) questions about this.
> Should Turbine support/be runnable in a OSGI container?
I wrote a proof-of-concept implementation of a OSGi service provider for
Turbine based on Apache Felix. You can find it in proposals/tv/osgi It
makes OSGI services available to a Turbine application. With some
polishing and some testing this could be included into Turbine Core.
I don't see much advantage in running Turbine in an OSGi environment.
I'd rather focus on the new servlet features such as async processing
and web socket.
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Posted by Jürgen Hoffmann <ho...@ellumination.de>.
Hi Georg,
Sure, Turbine is component based. But my question would then be how much overhead would OSGi bring to the core? Because to me, running an OSGi container within a Servlet container, sounds like running Virtualization on top of a Virtualized Environment. I am wondering if that is really worth the effort. Or if we will going to experience the same drawbacks as virtualization on top of virtualization faces which are: High Network Latency, Higher Complexity, Steep Learning Curve, Very hard to trace errors, etc.
Buddy
> On 24.09.2015, at 13:01, Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Jürgen,
>
> good point, which is what I asked myself ;-) I think it is about
> transparency...
>
> One reason may be is to get class loading better done - step by step. Some
> good points are mentioned here: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/pojosr.
> This does not mean necessarily OSGi at a whole, but at least it it is one
> part within this context (there is an example to use PojoSR in a Servlet
> context). OSGi is a good reference and is supported in many useful
> apllications, eg. Apache Karaf (Apache Felix based) and Apache Ace.
> Considering the latter, if deployment is an issue, then OSGi matters IMO.
>
> - Turbine is a component model as is OSGi. We should then at least point
> out, why using Turbine is better and NOT OSGi ;-)
>
> Best regards, Georg
>
>
>
>
> Von: Jürgen Hoffmann <ho...@ellumination.de>
> An: Turbine Developers List <de...@turbine.apache.org>
> Datum: 24.09.2015 11:10
> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
>
>
>
> Hi Georg,
>
> Yes, this discussion was way back in time. I am still wondering, why you
> would like to run a Web Application inside an OSGi Container. Turbine
> needs a servlet container to run. I know others are using fulcrum
> components outside the context of a web application, but that was always
> hard for me to understand/follow as I think there are better options
> available in these cases than to use Turbine.
>
> So my question is, what benefits would a developer have to have a web
> application framework directly deployable into an OSGi container in favor
> of a servlet container?
>
> Again, this depicts my personal opinion and should by no means stop
> discussion! And by my prejudice I guess you already figured that my
> knowledge about OSGi is pretty slim :)
>
> Buddy
>
>> On 24.09.2015, at 10:03, Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all!
>> to restart an older discussion (What happens after M1?) I have some more
>
>> (naive) questions about this.
>> Should Turbine support/be runnable in a OSGI container?
>> Should this become a main focus of the next release?
>> -> Create a new JIRA issue (feature request)!
>>
>> Some more questions, which came into my mind are:
>> - What would be the Proof of Concept for OSGI support? E.g. deploying
> into
>> Apache Karaf (light weight OSGI)?
>> - Configuration is up to now done using Yaafi component. Could
>> Turbine/Yaafi/Avalon Container include a Service Registry?
>> E.g. something like http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/PojoSR,
>> https://code.google.com/p/pojosr/wiki/Usage)? Dow e need support for
>> Declarative Services/ Blueprint OSGI? Would it more easy to use these
>> standards instead?
>> - Refactoring: Do we need more than one Turbine bundle? E.g. expose an
>> interface bundle and an implementation bundle? Some pPackage refactoring
>
>> may be required at least.
>> - Classloading: Cft. to
> http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/Avoid_Classloader_Hacks
>> ). There is an interesting discussion about class loading issues:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/users@felix.apache.org/msg05231.html.
>> Class.forName classloading should be checked
>> - Do we need Servicemix OSGI-enabled packages for dependencies?
>> More helpful Infos, especially for Fulcrum Components:
>> https://wiki.apache.org/commons/CommonsOsgi,
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMMONSSITE-23, and
> commons-logging
>> is a special case..
>>
>> Best regards, Georg
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@turbine.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@turbine.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@turbine.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@turbine.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Posted by Siegfried Goeschl <si...@it20one.com>.
Hi Georg,
@service registry - if I understand it correctly this is about adding service exposed by other frameworks. Actually we support bi-directional Spring integration (https://turbine.apache.org/fulcrum/fulcrum-spring/ <https://turbine.apache.org/fulcrum/fulcrum-spring/>). It is know to work with Spring 2.x - 4.x (the current pom.xml uses Spring 4.1.6.RELEASE).
@Avalon verus OSGI - the Avalon/Turbine component is NOT better than OSGI and/or Spring - a polite answer would be “having a different scope” :-) None of my customer would knowingly embrace an Avalon container for many reasons - old-fashioned, the Avalon project is retired, too few users, learning curve and they are completely right about it. Having said that - it does what it supposed to do with little foot-print and simple concepts - I can give anyone an Avalon Service Container crash course in 30 minutes.
Cheers
Siegfried Goeschl
> On 24 Sep 2015, at 13:01, Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Jürgen,
>
> good point, which is what I asked myself ;-) I think it is about
> transparency...
>
> One reason may be is to get class loading better done - step by step. Some
> good points are mentioned here: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/pojosr.
> This does not mean necessarily OSGi at a whole, but at least it it is one
> part within this context (there is an example to use PojoSR in a Servlet
> context). OSGi is a good reference and is supported in many useful
> apllications, eg. Apache Karaf (Apache Felix based) and Apache Ace.
> Considering the latter, if deployment is an issue, then OSGi matters IMO.
>
> - Turbine is a component model as is OSGi. We should then at least point
> out, why using Turbine is better and NOT OSGi ;-)
>
> Best regards, Georg
>
>
>
>
> Von: Jürgen Hoffmann <ho...@ellumination.de>
> An: Turbine Developers List <de...@turbine.apache.org>
> Datum: 24.09.2015 11:10
> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
>
>
>
> Hi Georg,
>
> Yes, this discussion was way back in time. I am still wondering, why you
> would like to run a Web Application inside an OSGi Container. Turbine
> needs a servlet container to run. I know others are using fulcrum
> components outside the context of a web application, but that was always
> hard for me to understand/follow as I think there are better options
> available in these cases than to use Turbine.
>
> So my question is, what benefits would a developer have to have a web
> application framework directly deployable into an OSGi container in favor
> of a servlet container?
>
> Again, this depicts my personal opinion and should by no means stop
> discussion! And by my prejudice I guess you already figured that my
> knowledge about OSGi is pretty slim :)
>
> Buddy
>
>> On 24.09.2015, at 10:03, Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all!
>> to restart an older discussion (What happens after M1?) I have some more
>
>> (naive) questions about this.
>> Should Turbine support/be runnable in a OSGI container?
>> Should this become a main focus of the next release?
>> -> Create a new JIRA issue (feature request)!
>>
>> Some more questions, which came into my mind are:
>> - What would be the Proof of Concept for OSGI support? E.g. deploying
> into
>> Apache Karaf (light weight OSGI)?
>> - Configuration is up to now done using Yaafi component. Could
>> Turbine/Yaafi/Avalon Container include a Service Registry?
>> E.g. something like http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/PojoSR,
>> https://code.google.com/p/pojosr/wiki/Usage)? Dow e need support for
>> Declarative Services/ Blueprint OSGI? Would it more easy to use these
>> standards instead?
>> - Refactoring: Do we need more than one Turbine bundle? E.g. expose an
>> interface bundle and an implementation bundle? Some pPackage refactoring
>
>> may be required at least.
>> - Classloading: Cft. to
> http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/Avoid_Classloader_Hacks
>> ). There is an interesting discussion about class loading issues:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/users@felix.apache.org/msg05231.html.
>> Class.forName classloading should be checked
>> - Do we need Servicemix OSGI-enabled packages for dependencies?
>> More helpful Infos, especially for Fulcrum Components:
>> https://wiki.apache.org/commons/CommonsOsgi,
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMMONSSITE-23, and
> commons-logging
>> is a special case..
>>
>> Best regards, Georg
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@turbine.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@turbine.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@turbine.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@turbine.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@turbine.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@turbine.apache.org
>
Re: Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Posted by Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de>.
Hi Jürgen,
good point, which is what I asked myself ;-) I think it is about
transparency...
One reason may be is to get class loading better done - step by step. Some
good points are mentioned here: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/pojosr.
This does not mean necessarily OSGi at a whole, but at least it it is one
part within this context (there is an example to use PojoSR in a Servlet
context). OSGi is a good reference and is supported in many useful
apllications, eg. Apache Karaf (Apache Felix based) and Apache Ace.
Considering the latter, if deployment is an issue, then OSGi matters IMO.
- Turbine is a component model as is OSGi. We should then at least point
out, why using Turbine is better and NOT OSGi ;-)
Best regards, Georg
Von: Jürgen Hoffmann <ho...@ellumination.de>
An: Turbine Developers List <de...@turbine.apache.org>
Datum: 24.09.2015 11:10
Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Hi Georg,
Yes, this discussion was way back in time. I am still wondering, why you
would like to run a Web Application inside an OSGi Container. Turbine
needs a servlet container to run. I know others are using fulcrum
components outside the context of a web application, but that was always
hard for me to understand/follow as I think there are better options
available in these cases than to use Turbine.
So my question is, what benefits would a developer have to have a web
application framework directly deployable into an OSGi container in favor
of a servlet container?
Again, this depicts my personal opinion and should by no means stop
discussion! And by my prejudice I guess you already figured that my
knowledge about OSGi is pretty slim :)
Buddy
> On 24.09.2015, at 10:03, Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de>
wrote:
>
> Hi all!
> to restart an older discussion (What happens after M1?) I have some more
> (naive) questions about this.
> Should Turbine support/be runnable in a OSGI container?
> Should this become a main focus of the next release?
> -> Create a new JIRA issue (feature request)!
>
> Some more questions, which came into my mind are:
> - What would be the Proof of Concept for OSGI support? E.g. deploying
into
> Apache Karaf (light weight OSGI)?
> - Configuration is up to now done using Yaafi component. Could
> Turbine/Yaafi/Avalon Container include a Service Registry?
> E.g. something like http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/PojoSR,
> https://code.google.com/p/pojosr/wiki/Usage)? Dow e need support for
> Declarative Services/ Blueprint OSGI? Would it more easy to use these
> standards instead?
> - Refactoring: Do we need more than one Turbine bundle? E.g. expose an
> interface bundle and an implementation bundle? Some pPackage refactoring
> may be required at least.
> - Classloading: Cft. to
http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/Avoid_Classloader_Hacks
> ). There is an interesting discussion about class loading issues:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/users@felix.apache.org/msg05231.html.
> Class.forName classloading should be checked
> - Do we need Servicemix OSGI-enabled packages for dependencies?
> More helpful Infos, especially for Fulcrum Components:
> https://wiki.apache.org/commons/CommonsOsgi,
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMMONSSITE-23, and
commons-logging
> is a special case..
>
> Best regards, Georg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@turbine.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@turbine.apache.org
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] OSGI in Turbine 4 Final
Posted by Jürgen Hoffmann <ho...@ellumination.de>.
Hi Georg,
Yes, this discussion was way back in time. I am still wondering, why you would like to run a Web Application inside an OSGi Container. Turbine needs a servlet container to run. I know others are using fulcrum components outside the context of a web application, but that was always hard for me to understand/follow as I think there are better options available in these cases than to use Turbine.
So my question is, what benefits would a developer have to have a web application framework directly deployable into an OSGi container in favor of a servlet container?
Again, this depicts my personal opinion and should by no means stop discussion! And by my prejudice I guess you already figured that my knowledge about OSGi is pretty slim :)
Buddy
> On 24.09.2015, at 10:03, Georg Kallidis <gk...@cedis.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> Hi all!
> to restart an older discussion (What happens after M1?) I have some more
> (naive) questions about this.
> Should Turbine support/be runnable in a OSGI container?
> Should this become a main focus of the next release?
> -> Create a new JIRA issue (feature request)!
>
> Some more questions, which came into my mind are:
> - What would be the Proof of Concept for OSGI support? E.g. deploying into
> Apache Karaf (light weight OSGI)?
> - Configuration is up to now done using Yaafi component. Could
> Turbine/Yaafi/Avalon Container include a Service Registry?
> E.g. something like http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/PojoSR,
> https://code.google.com/p/pojosr/wiki/Usage)? Dow e need support for
> Declarative Services/ Blueprint OSGI? Would it more easy to use these
> standards instead?
> - Refactoring: Do we need more than one Turbine bundle? E.g. expose an
> interface bundle and an implementation bundle? Some pPackage refactoring
> may be required at least.
> - Classloading: Cft. to http://wiki.osgi.org/wiki/Avoid_Classloader_Hacks
> ). There is an interesting discussion about class loading issues:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/users@felix.apache.org/msg05231.html.
> Class.forName classloading should be checked
> - Do we need Servicemix OSGI-enabled packages for dependencies?
> More helpful Infos, especially for Fulcrum Components:
> https://wiki.apache.org/commons/CommonsOsgi,
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COMMONSSITE-23, and commons-logging
> is a special case..
>
> Best regards, Georg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@turbine.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@turbine.apache.org
>
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