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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Andy Singleton <an...@assembla.com> on 2011/12/01 23:38:32 UTC
[PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download page with
client-only, no-registration option
Here is a patch to update the Binary Package page with links to client
packages. This will make it easier for users to upgrade to 1.7.
This patch is an update to
http://subversion.apache.org/packages.html
This patch keeps the links in alphabetical order.
BASIC FEATURES
* No registration is required. No cookies or other user tracking are used
* Recent stable versions of Apache Subversion clients compiled and
tested by Assembla or WANdisco
* Client only. The majority of download users are looking for clients
* Directly link to each operating system with anchor links
[[[
Index: packages.html
===================================================================
--- packages.html (revision 1208468)
+++ packages.html (working copy)
@@ -96,6 +96,12 @@
<div class="package" style="background-image: url('/images/centos.png');">
<ul>
+<li><p><a href="http://svn-ref.assembla.com/download-clients.html#CentOS">
+ Assembla</a> (32- and 64-bit client only; supported by
+ <a href="http://www.assembla.com/">Assembla</a>, compiled and tested by
+ <a href="http://www.wandisco.com/"
+ >WANdisco</a>)</p>
+</li>
<li><p><a href="http://www.collab.net/downloads/subversion/redhat.html">
CollabNet</a> (client only; supported and certified by
<a href="http://www.collab.net/subversion"
@@ -120,6 +126,12 @@
<div class="package" style="background-image: url('/images/debian.png');">
<ul>
+<li><p><a href="http://svn-ref.assembla.com/download-clients.html#Debian">
+ Assembla</a> (32- and 64-bit client only; supported by
+ <a href="http://www.assembla.com/">Assembla</a>, compiled and tested by
+ <a href="http://www.wandisco.com/"
+ >WANdisco</a>)</p>
+</li>
<li><p><a
href="http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=subversion&exact=1"
>Debian Project</a> (maintained by
<a href="mailto:subversion@packages.debian.org"
@@ -248,6 +260,11 @@
<div class="package" style="background-image: url('/images/mac.png');">
<ul>
+<li><p><a href="http://svn-ref.assembla.com/download-clients.html#Mac-OSX">
+ Assembla</a> (Mac OSX 10.6/10.7 client only; supported and
maintained by
+ <a href="http://www.assembla.com/">Assembla</a>)
+ </p>
+</li>
<li><p><a href="http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/package.php/svn"
>Fink</a> (requires <a href="http://www.finkproject.org/">Fink</a>;
maintained by
<a href="mailto:chris01@users.sourceforge.net"
@@ -337,6 +354,12 @@
<div class="package" style="background-image: url('/images/suse.png');">
<ul>
+<li><p><a
href="http://svn-ref.assembla.com/download-clients.html#SUSE-Linux">
+ Assembla</a> (32- and 64-bitclient only; supported by
+ <a href="http://www.assembla.com/">Assembla</a>, compiled and tested by
+ <a href="http://www.wandisco.com/"
+ >WANdisco</a>)</p>
+</li>
<li><p><a href="http://www.collab.net/downloads/subversion/redhat.html">
CollabNet</a> (client only; supported and certified by
<a href="http://www.collab.net/subversion"
@@ -368,6 +391,12 @@
<div class="package" style="background-image: url('/images/ubuntu.png');">
<ul>
+<li><p><a href="http://svn-ref.assembla.com/download-clients.html#Ubuntu">
+ Assembla</a> (32- and 64-bit client only; supported by
+ <a href="http://www.assembla.com/">Assembla</a>, compiled and tested by
+ <a href="http://www.wandisco.com/"
+ >WANdisco</a>)</p>
+</li>
<li><p><a
href="http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=subversion&exact=1"
>Ubuntu Packages</a> (maintained by
<a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss"
@@ -396,6 +425,12 @@
<div class="package" style="background-image: url('/images/windows.png');">
<ul>
+<li><p><a href="http://svn-ref.assembla.com/download-clients.html#Windows">
+ Assembla</a> (32- and 64-bit client only; supported by
+ <a href="http://www.assembla.com/">Assembla</a>, compiled and tested by
+ <a href="http://www.wandisco.com/"
+ >WANdisco</a>)</p>
+</li>
<li><p><a href="http://www.collab.net/downloads/subversion/"
>CollabNet</a> (client only; supported and certified by
<a href="http://www.collab.net/subversion"
]]]
Re: [PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download
page with client-only, no-registration option
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Andy Singleton wrote on Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 17:38:32 -0500:
> [[[
> Index: packages.html
> ===================================================================
> --- packages.html (revision 1208468)
> +++ packages.html (working copy)
> @@ -96,6 +96,12 @@
> <div class="package" style="background-image: url('/images/centos.png');">
> ]]]
> Index: packages.html
> ===================================================================
> --- packages.html (revision 1208468)
> +++ packages.html (working copy)
> @@ -96,6 +96,12 @@
> <div class="package" style="background-image: url('/images/centos.png');">
The patch you sent is corrupt.
Re: [PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download page
with client-only, no-registration option
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
On 02.12.2011 15:21, Andy Singleton wrote:
> The proposed links are not duplicates. 90% of users by count will
> want the client only, with no registration, which is what these links
> provide. WANdisco's distributions combine the client and server.
I stand corrected. In that case, +1 to apply this patch.
-- Brane
Re: [PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download page
with client-only, no-registration option
Posted by Mark Phippard <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 9:21 AM, Andy Singleton <an...@assembla.com> wrote:
> The proposed links are not duplicates.
If that is true, then I do not object.
When I looked at your page before, it seemed that it was linking
directly to WanDisco for the downloads. Are you saying that they are
making special client-only downloads for this page only? The files
being downloaded are not the same ones they already have links for?
That was not clear to me if that is the case. I have not installed
their downloads so do not know how it is packaged.
> 90% of users by count will want the client only,
I have 4+ years of download data that say that is not true. Did it
ever occur to you that as a SVN hosting provider the people you work
with would be more inclined to want a client than a server? Anyway,
it is irrelevant. We obviously want downloads for both client and
server on our page. If you only want to provide a client that is
totally fine with me.
> As an aside, users are also going to want update information for other
> clients, not just clients from Apache + one sponsoring vendor. The 1.7
> upgrade changes the working copy and requires that users upgrade all of the
> clients that act on one repository. Ideally, they shouldn't need to hunt
> around for all the new versions. It's all part of the upgrade experience.
>
> An alternative is to negotiate with Collabnet and WANdisco to get an
> improved 1.7 upgrade experience. I also pursued that route, but it is a
> slow process. I determined that it would be more effective to gather
> together the client-only packages with proper attribution.
I do not know what you are talking about here so hard to comment. I
can say the project lives here and here alone. if you have
suggestions about the upgrade experience this is the one and only
place to talk about it.
--
Thanks
Mark Phippard
http://markphip.blogspot.com/
Re: [PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download page
with client-only, no-registration option
Posted by Andy Singleton <an...@assembla.com>.
The proposed links are not duplicates. 90% of users by count will
want the client only, with no registration, which is what these links
provide. WANdisco's distributions combine the client and server.
Collabnet's links require registration.
As an aside, users are also going to want update information for other
clients, not just clients from Apache + one sponsoring vendor. The 1.7
upgrade changes the working copy and requires that users upgrade all of
the clients that act on one repository. Ideally, they shouldn't need to
hunt around for all the new versions. It's all part of the upgrade
experience.
An alternative is to negotiate with Collabnet and WANdisco to get an
improved 1.7 upgrade experience. I also pursued that route, but it is a
slow process. I determined that it would be more effective to gather
together the client-only packages with proper attribution.
Attached is the patch in a format that applied correctly for me. The
last one had an extra newline or something. I'm sorry for the patch
clumsiness. In my world, we don't send patches, we foreign merge, so it
takes me a while to get adjusted.
On 12/1/2011 11:33 PM, Branko Čibej wrote:
> On 02.12.2011 05:12, Andy Singleton wrote:
>> Shortly we will be putting up clients with new open source features
>> that we have been working on, like EasySVN and Newmerge. If you want
>> to use your seniority to turn this sort of thing out of the Apache
>> community, then I guess there is always the option of forking.
> Your attitude isn't helping. You want us to advertise your service (for
> free) and threaten to fork if we don't? You're not likely to get
> anywhere in any community with that kind of aggressive posturing.
>
> That said, I don't see why linking to Assembla's download site would be
> a problem. It does feel a bit silly to list WANdisco's packages twice,
> but that's a matter of taste.
>
> -- Brane
>
Re: [PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download page
with client-only, no-registration option
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 02.12.2011 05:12, Andy Singleton wrote:
> Shortly we will be putting up clients with new open source features
> that we have been working on, like EasySVN and Newmerge. If you want
> to use your seniority to turn this sort of thing out of the Apache
> community, then I guess there is always the option of forking.
Your attitude isn't helping. You want us to advertise your service (for
free) and threaten to fork if we don't? You're not likely to get
anywhere in any community with that kind of aggressive posturing.
That said, I don't see why linking to Assembla's download site would be
a problem. It does feel a bit silly to list WANdisco's packages twice,
but that's a matter of taste.
-- Brane
Re: [PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download page
with client-only, no-registration option
Posted by Mark Phippard <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Andy Singleton <an...@assembla.com> wrote:
> I am submitting this patch because the other client links available - from
> Collabnet, YOUR EMPLOYER - require registration. That creates a bad and
> manipulative user experience. You can fix it by adding these links. Or,
> you can remove the registration requirement from the Collabnet downloads.
> Or, you can remove the Collabnet downloads and substitute the Assembla
> downloads, if you are so concerned about reducing the number of links.
Take a deep breath Andy. I am not attacking you. This is not
personal. The page you created is nice. I stated the reasons why I
object to adding these links. Namely that your links are just to the
same downloads for which we already have links. I raised the question
about where would we draw the line if we add these links. If we
accept yours, then who's would we turn down?
If it were my decision, the downloads that CollabNet provides would
not require registration. The page already indicates which sites
require registration. If you want to provide resources to build and
qualify binaries I am not going to object to linking to them.
> It's interesting that you bring up the svnhostingcomparison site. That is
> an advertisement for Codesion/Collabnet, paid for by Collabnet, masquerading
> as a review site. I wonder how Assembla and Codesion would look in a fair
> comparison of hosting services.
I Googled for "svn hosting" so I could give a sense for how many
providers are out there. That was the first link and it makes the
point. I did not suggest people look at the comparison data or make
any judgements based on it. I was just saying "look how many hosting
sites there are". I have never heard that site discussed at CollabNet
and do not believe we own the site. I just went back and looked and
the site says it is maintained by an individual. I did notice the
advertisement on the site.
> Yes, the links we put up are mostly duplicates of things that you can get
> from Collabnet.
This has nothing to do with CollabNet. I do not care if you want to
provide binaries. I am saying that you are linking to binaries
(WanDisco) that we already have linked on the page. I just do not see
the point in linking to the same thing twice from our page. I think
your page is good. It makes sense to me that you have it and I am
sure your customers will find it convenient that you provide it for
them.
> That's appropriate in this venue, which is about supporting
> Apache subversion users. Shortly we will be putting up clients with new
> open source features that we have been working on, like EasySVN and
> Newmerge. If you want to use your seniority to turn this sort of thing out
> of the Apache community, then I guess there is always the option of forking.
There is no hierarchy here where my voice counts more than someone
else. I have explained why I do not think we should include the
links. We might have people that think we should just list every link
that might come our way. Those opinions are welcome. Note that there
are no links on our site to TortoiseSVN and it probably has more users
than our command line client. There are no links for Subclipse,
AnkhSVN or other popular clients either. We are not trying to shut
you out.
I am not sure why you are bringing up the fork option. If you are
developing clients that require new API or modifications to our
existing API, and you are not discussing those changes in this mailing
list and you are not doing the work in a branch of our repository,
then it sounds like you have already created a fork. That is your
option to do that. But otherwise there are plenty of Subversion
clients out there that seem to do just fine without adding links on
our download page.
--
Thanks
Mark Phippard
http://markphip.blogspot.com/
Re: [PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download page
with client-only, no-registration option
Posted by Andy Singleton <an...@assembla.com>.
I am submitting this patch because the other client links available -
from Collabnet, YOUR EMPLOYER - require registration. That creates a
bad and manipulative user experience. You can fix it by adding these
links. Or, you can remove the registration requirement from the
Collabnet downloads. Or, you can remove the Collabnet downloads and
substitute the Assembla downloads, if you are so concerned about
reducing the number of links.
It's interesting that you bring up the svnhostingcomparison site. That
is an advertisement for Codesion/Collabnet, paid for by Collabnet,
masquerading as a review site. I wonder how Assembla and Codesion would
look in a fair comparison of hosting services.
Yes, the links we put up are mostly duplicates of things that you can
get from Collabnet. That's appropriate in this venue, which is about
supporting Apache subversion users. Shortly we will be putting up
clients with new open source features that we have been working on, like
EasySVN and Newmerge. If you want to use your seniority to turn this
sort of thing out of the Apache community, then I guess there is always
the option of forking.
On 12/1/2011 7:26 PM, Mark Phippard wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Andy Singleton<an...@assembla.com> wrote:
>> Here is a patch to update the Binary Package page with links to client
>> packages. This will make it easier for users to upgrade to 1.7.
>>
>> This patch is an update to
>> http://subversion.apache.org/packages.html
>>
>> This patch keeps the links in alphabetical order.
>>
>> BASIC FEATURES
>> * No registration is required. No cookies or other user tracking are used
>> * Recent stable versions of Apache Subversion clients compiled and tested by
>> Assembla or WANdisco
>> * Client only. The majority of download users are looking for clients
>> * Directly link to each operating system with anchor links
> I think that the page you have created with the downloads you want to
> provide is well executed and looks nice. But I do not think we should
> provide links to it on our download page.
>
> Ultimately, your page is just another version of our page with your
> preferred clients linked. Your links are just going to the same
> places as our existing links do so why should we add more options on
> our page that are just going to the same eventual downloads that we
> already list?
>
> It makes perfect sense to me that a site that offers Subversion
> hosting, such as yourself, would have a convenient page to download
> clients. But consider how many SVN hosting sites there are? This is
> just a sampling:
>
> http://www.svnhostingcomparison.com/
>
> If just a small number of these sites have a page similar to the one
> you created and then submitted patches to add links to their page from
> our page, our page will just become less and less useful. I cannot
> see why we would accept your links but not then later turn away
> someone else that creates a similar page to yours.
>
> You have created a nice page and you have ample opportunity on your
> site to put it in front of your customers so that they can download
> clients easily. That seems like it should be good enough to serve
> your customers well.
>
> This is of course just my opinion but I am -0 on accepting this for
> the reasons stated.
>
--
Andy Singleton
Assembla <http://www.assembla.com>
phone: 1.781.328.2241
email: andy@assembla.com
skype: andysingleton
Re: [PATCH] RETRY: Patch to update the Binary Package download page
with client-only, no-registration option
Posted by Mark Phippard <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Andy Singleton <an...@assembla.com> wrote:
> Here is a patch to update the Binary Package page with links to client
> packages. This will make it easier for users to upgrade to 1.7.
>
> This patch is an update to
> http://subversion.apache.org/packages.html
>
> This patch keeps the links in alphabetical order.
>
> BASIC FEATURES
> * No registration is required. No cookies or other user tracking are used
> * Recent stable versions of Apache Subversion clients compiled and tested by
> Assembla or WANdisco
> * Client only. The majority of download users are looking for clients
> * Directly link to each operating system with anchor links
I think that the page you have created with the downloads you want to
provide is well executed and looks nice. But I do not think we should
provide links to it on our download page.
Ultimately, your page is just another version of our page with your
preferred clients linked. Your links are just going to the same
places as our existing links do so why should we add more options on
our page that are just going to the same eventual downloads that we
already list?
It makes perfect sense to me that a site that offers Subversion
hosting, such as yourself, would have a convenient page to download
clients. But consider how many SVN hosting sites there are? This is
just a sampling:
http://www.svnhostingcomparison.com/
If just a small number of these sites have a page similar to the one
you created and then submitted patches to add links to their page from
our page, our page will just become less and less useful. I cannot
see why we would accept your links but not then later turn away
someone else that creates a similar page to yours.
You have created a nice page and you have ample opportunity on your
site to put it in front of your customers so that they can download
clients easily. That seems like it should be good enough to serve
your customers well.
This is of course just my opinion but I am -0 on accepting this for
the reasons stated.
--
Thanks
Mark Phippard
http://markphip.blogspot.com/