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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> on 2002/11/18 02:37:09 UTC
Struts At ApacheCon 2002
If you're coming to Las Vegas this week for ApacheCon, there will be two
sessions and a BOF specifically focused on Struts:
* Session TU07 (Tuesday, 1:30-2:30) - What's New In Struts 1.1
* Session WE06 (Wednesday, 10:00-11:00) - Building Web Applications
With Struts
* BOF BOF03 (Tuesday, 8:00p-9:00p) - Struts After 1.1 -- Where Do We
Go From Here?
The BOF is primarily an opportunity to gather input from folks on our
initial thinking about the 1.2 and 2.0 roadmaps, and to answer any general
questions that people have.
I look forward to meeting any Struts users (and developers) attending the
conference. You can find me at one of these sessions, or hanging around
the Sun booths in the Exhibit Hall.
Craig McClanahan
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Re: Struts Tools
Posted by micael <ca...@harbornet.com>.
I could not agree more. Huzza!
At 08:10 PM 11/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>11/20/2002 2:46:08 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>
>wrote:
> >I think it is time to start packaging tools and generators with
> >Struts to help the developer -- either as standalone packages
> >included for convenience, or integrated into the architecture of
> >the package.
>
>As it stands, there is already a very healthy "add-in" marketplace
>for Struts. I think this is one reason why Struts has become so
>popular, and anything we do should be with an eye toward expanding
>the universe of Struts extensions.
>
>Personally, I am vastly impressed by the community support for
>Eclipse plug-ins. I wold very much like to help create the same
>sort of environment for Struts. I am also vastly impressed by the
>way some Maven-based packages (like Jelly) are able to
>automatically download whatever JARs they need.
>
>What I would like to work toward is an environment where there is
>a distinct Struts core, accompanied by a number of easy-to-install
>standard options (Tiles, Validator, Struts-EL, Console, and so
>forth).
>
>Of course, any third-party options would be just as easy to
>install as the "standards" maintained by the Struts Committers. An
>important idea would be that when we provide standard options, we
>are also demonstrating how others can plug-in their own options
>instead.
>
>-Ted.
>
>
>
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Micael
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Re: Struts Tools
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
11/20/2002 2:46:08 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>
wrote:
>I think it is time to start packaging tools and generators with
>Struts to help the developer -- either as standalone packages
>included for convenience, or integrated into the architecture of
>the package.
As it stands, there is already a very healthy "add-in" marketplace
for Struts. I think this is one reason why Struts has become so
popular, and anything we do should be with an eye toward expanding
the universe of Struts extensions.
Personally, I am vastly impressed by the community support for
Eclipse plug-ins. I wold very much like to help create the same
sort of environment for Struts. I am also vastly impressed by the
way some Maven-based packages (like Jelly) are able to
automatically download whatever JARs they need.
What I would like to work toward is an environment where there is
a distinct Struts core, accompanied by a number of easy-to-install
standard options (Tiles, Validator, Struts-EL, Console, and so
forth).
Of course, any third-party options would be just as easy to
install as the "standards" maintained by the Struts Committers. An
important idea would be that when we provide standard options, we
are also demonstrating how others can plug-in their own options
instead.
-Ted.
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Re: Struts Tools
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
11/20/2002 3:15:37 PM, Emmanuel Boudrant <b7...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>Easy Struts will be volunteer ;)
How about us putting together our own distribution of Eclipse,
with things like *, EZ Struts, Console, and so forth, already
bundled in?
Or at least a HOW-TO for putting together a complete Struts
environment in Eclipse?
This would also give people a model to follow to setup comparable
howtos for IntelliJ and so forth.
One thing about Eclipse is that is already (like Struts) an
embarassment of riches. There are so many plugins floating around,
you spend a lot of time just separating the wheat from the chaff
=:0)
For work on the Struts site, I'm finding XML Buddy quite helpful,
but I'm not sure where they will be going with the licensing
later.
Anyone other suggestions for a XML plugin for workign with XML
files? (like those we use at Jakarta)
-Ted.
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Re: blank.war vs. struts-blank.war [was: Re: Tools in Struts]
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Erik Hatcher wrote:
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:11:12 -0500
> From: Erik Hatcher <ja...@ehatchersolutions.com>
> Reply-To: Struts Developers List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Struts Developers List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: blank.war vs. struts-blank.war [was: Re: Tools in Struts]
>
> XDoclet already ships with builtin struts-config.xml generation,
> validatio.xml generation, and Struts form bean generation (from entity
> beans, and maybe for value objects?).
>
Based on which Erik makes a pretty interesting case that DynaBeans don't
add a tremendous amount of value :-). I still like them as the basis for
future work towards more "dynamic" dynamic form beans, where the set of
properties is not predefined, but auto-generation of ActionForm subclasses
does indeed reduce the delta value.
> I'm not sure what is needed to make the presentation of this stuff
> better, but its all there for the taking and works very nicely. It
> would be good for the Struts pieces to be maintained by the Struts team
> though.
>
I think that makes sense as well. Over time, I'd like to see us
accumulate low-level generation tools (for both Java code and the
appropriate configuration files) specific to Struts in the Struts project
itself, and then expose interfaces to easily invoke these tools via
command line scripts, Ant/Maven tasks, and/or plugin APIs for IDEs.
> Erik
>
Craig
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Re: blank.war vs. struts-blank.war [was: Re: Tools in Struts]
Posted by Erik Hatcher <ja...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
XDoclet already ships with builtin struts-config.xml generation,
validatio.xml generation, and Struts form bean generation (from entity
beans, and maybe for value objects?).
I'm not sure what is needed to make the presentation of this stuff
better, but its all there for the taking and works very nicely. It
would be good for the Struts pieces to be maintained by the Struts team
though.
Erik
Emmanuel Boudrant wrote:
> Oh yes ;)
>
> So it's about Struts tools, how can we package a set of Struts tools for Java/XML generation
> (Struts-XDoclet, EasyStruts, Console).
> Perhaps we need to create an API based on struts configuration classes
> (org.apache.struts.config.*) for writing Struts XML/JSP/Java files. This API can be used by
> differents GUI integrated in most populars IDE (JB,NB,Eclipse,IntelliJ...).
>
> This API can be hosted by Struts application project on Sourceforge (or jakarta).
>
> -emmanuel
> http://easystruts.sf.net
>
>
> --- Erik Hatcher <ja...@ehatchersolutions.com> a écrit : > Emmanuel Boudrant wrote:
>
>>>Just a question, who is Erik ? ;)
>>
>>I guess Ted is referring to me :)
>>
>> Erik
>> http://erik.hatcher.net
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: blank.war vs. struts-blank.war [was: Re: Tools in Struts]
Posted by Emmanuel Boudrant <b7...@yahoo.fr>.
Oh yes ;)
So it's about Struts tools, how can we package a set of Struts tools for Java/XML generation
(Struts-XDoclet, EasyStruts, Console).
Perhaps we need to create an API based on struts configuration classes
(org.apache.struts.config.*) for writing Struts XML/JSP/Java files. This API can be used by
differents GUI integrated in most populars IDE (JB,NB,Eclipse,IntelliJ...).
This API can be hosted by Struts application project on Sourceforge (or jakarta).
-emmanuel
http://easystruts.sf.net
--- Erik Hatcher <ja...@ehatchersolutions.com> a écrit : > Emmanuel Boudrant wrote:
> > Just a question, who is Erik ? ;)
>
> I guess Ted is referring to me :)
>
> Erik
> http://erik.hatcher.net
>
>
>
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Re: blank.war vs. struts-blank.war [was: Re: Tools in Struts]
Posted by Erik Hatcher <ja...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
Emmanuel Boudrant wrote:
> Just a question, who is Erik ? ;)
I guess Ted is referring to me :)
Erik
http://erik.hatcher.net
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Re: blank.war vs. struts-blank.war [was: Re: Tools in Struts]
Posted by Emmanuel Boudrant <b7...@yahoo.fr>.
Just a question, who is Erik ? ;)
--- Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> a écrit : > The struts-blank.war at SourceForge is the 1.0
version of the
> blank application for 1.1. So, the best answer would be blank.war
> for 1.1 and the struts-blank.war for 1.0. =:0)
>
> Of course, if you and Erik wanted to work on struts-xdoclet
> through the SF site, just send me your SF ids =:0)
>
> -Ted.
>
> 11/24/2002 7:59:40 PM, Matt Raible <ma...@raibledesigns.com> wrote:
>
> >I noticed that the "Struts Applications" project on SourceForge
> has a
> >blank.war project and there's also struts-blank.war that is
> distributed
> >with Struts. Which one is best to advertise as a good "starting
> >package."
> >
> >I hope to both 1) create an app based on struts advanced features
> (i.e.
> >exceptions, tiles, validator, DispatchAction) and 2) create a
> base app
> >with a how to about using XDoclet and a persistence layer using
> >Hibernate or Castor. The hope is that a new project can start
> with
> >this project (i.e. struts-xdoclet.war) and have ant scripts and
> samples
> >of how to use Struts with a popular persistence mechanism.
> >
> >I've been discussing this project with Erik Hatcher and my
> initial
> >thoughts are to hand-code some POJO that generate persistent
> objects
> >(i.e. using Castor) and ValidatorForms.
> >
> >Even better (or maybe worse), I'm putting myself on a tight
> deadline
> >for this (i.e. 2-3 weeks) so it resembles a real-world project.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 02:54 AM, Ted Husted wrote:
> >
> >> Yes =:0)
> >>
> >> Maybe that will finally give Eric a chance to show us what he's
> >> been up to =:0)
> >>
> >> -Ted.
> >>
> >> 11/23/2002 11:23:41 PM, Matt Raible <ma...@raibledesigns.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm thinking of starting an Xdoclet/Middlegen-based Struts
> >> project where
> >>> (hopefully) most of the code can be generated. Can I start a
> >> project
> >>> within the one below?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Matt
> >>>
> >>>> If anyone is interested, I have a Struts project setup at
> >>>> SourceForge that is open to all comers.
> >>>>
> >>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/struts
> >>>
> >>> I wouldn't mind turning this into a Struts commons, where we
> can
> >>> all cooperate on developing various extensions to the Struts
> >> core.
> >>>
> >>> -Ted.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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Re: blank.war vs. struts-blank.war [was: Re: Tools in Struts]
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
The struts-blank.war at SourceForge is the 1.0 version of the
blank application for 1.1. So, the best answer would be blank.war
for 1.1 and the struts-blank.war for 1.0. =:0)
Of course, if you and Erik wanted to work on struts-xdoclet
through the SF site, just send me your SF ids =:0)
-Ted.
11/24/2002 7:59:40 PM, Matt Raible <ma...@raibledesigns.com> wrote:
>I noticed that the "Struts Applications" project on SourceForge
has a
>blank.war project and there's also struts-blank.war that is
distributed
>with Struts. Which one is best to advertise as a good "starting
>package."
>
>I hope to both 1) create an app based on struts advanced features
(i.e.
>exceptions, tiles, validator, DispatchAction) and 2) create a
base app
>with a how to about using XDoclet and a persistence layer using
>Hibernate or Castor. The hope is that a new project can start
with
>this project (i.e. struts-xdoclet.war) and have ant scripts and
samples
>of how to use Struts with a popular persistence mechanism.
>
>I've been discussing this project with Erik Hatcher and my
initial
>thoughts are to hand-code some POJO that generate persistent
objects
>(i.e. using Castor) and ValidatorForms.
>
>Even better (or maybe worse), I'm putting myself on a tight
deadline
>for this (i.e. 2-3 weeks) so it resembles a real-world project.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt
>
>
>
>On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 02:54 AM, Ted Husted wrote:
>
>> Yes =:0)
>>
>> Maybe that will finally give Eric a chance to show us what he's
>> been up to =:0)
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
>> 11/23/2002 11:23:41 PM, Matt Raible <ma...@raibledesigns.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm thinking of starting an Xdoclet/Middlegen-based Struts
>> project where
>>> (hopefully) most of the code can be generated. Can I start a
>> project
>>> within the one below?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>> If anyone is interested, I have a Struts project setup at
>>>> SourceForge that is open to all comers.
>>>>
>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/struts
>>>
>>> I wouldn't mind turning this into a Struts commons, where we
can
>>> all cooperate on developing various extensions to the Struts
>> core.
>>>
>>> -Ted.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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blank.war vs. struts-blank.war [was: Re: Tools in Struts]
Posted by Matt Raible <ma...@raibledesigns.com>.
I noticed that the "Struts Applications" project on SourceForge has a
blank.war project and there's also struts-blank.war that is distributed
with Struts. Which one is best to advertise as a good "starting
package."
I hope to both 1) create an app based on struts advanced features (i.e.
exceptions, tiles, validator, DispatchAction) and 2) create a base app
with a how to about using XDoclet and a persistence layer using
Hibernate or Castor. The hope is that a new project can start with
this project (i.e. struts-xdoclet.war) and have ant scripts and samples
of how to use Struts with a popular persistence mechanism.
I've been discussing this project with Erik Hatcher and my initial
thoughts are to hand-code some POJO that generate persistent objects
(i.e. using Castor) and ValidatorForms.
Even better (or maybe worse), I'm putting myself on a tight deadline
for this (i.e. 2-3 weeks) so it resembles a real-world project.
Thanks,
Matt
On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 02:54 AM, Ted Husted wrote:
> Yes =:0)
>
> Maybe that will finally give Eric a chance to show us what he's
> been up to =:0)
>
> -Ted.
>
> 11/23/2002 11:23:41 PM, Matt Raible <ma...@raibledesigns.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking of starting an Xdoclet/Middlegen-based Struts
> project where
>> (hopefully) most of the code can be generated. Can I start a
> project
>> within the one below?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>> If anyone is interested, I have a Struts project setup at
>>> SourceForge that is open to all comers.
>>>
>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/struts
>>
>> I wouldn't mind turning this into a Struts commons, where we can
>> all cooperate on developing various extensions to the Struts
> core.
>>
>> -Ted.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: RE: Tools in Struts [was: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002]
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
Yes =:0)
Maybe that will finally give Eric a chance to show us what he's
been up to =:0)
-Ted.
11/23/2002 11:23:41 PM, Matt Raible <ma...@raibledesigns.com>
wrote:
>I'm thinking of starting an Xdoclet/Middlegen-based Struts
project where
>(hopefully) most of the code can be generated. Can I start a
project
>within the one below?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt
>
>> If anyone is interested, I have a Struts project setup at
>> SourceForge that is open to all comers.
>>
>http://sourceforge.net/projects/struts
>
>I wouldn't mind turning this into a Struts commons, where we can
>all cooperate on developing various extensions to the Struts
core.
>
>-Ted.
>
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RE: Tools in Struts [was: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002]
Posted by Matt Raible <ma...@raibledesigns.com>.
I'm thinking of starting an Xdoclet/Middlegen-based Struts project where
(hopefully) most of the code can be generated. Can I start a project
within the one below?
Thanks,
Matt
> If anyone is interested, I have a Struts project setup at
> SourceForge that is open to all comers.
>
http://sourceforge.net/projects/struts
I wouldn't mind turning this into a Struts commons, where we can
all cooperate on developing various extensions to the Struts core.
-Ted.
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Re: Tools in Struts [was: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002]
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
11/20/2002 5:29:24 PM, Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org> wrote:
>Would the source reside in jakrata-Struts or just the
applications?
>The reason I ask is that for speed of evolution it might
>be reasonable to keep/place the source code on
>SourceForge, in an open community. That way Emmanuel and James
could
>draw from a seperate pool of developers as THEY saw fit.
>
>Also then they might combine resources and create a hybrid
product.
>
>I am not opposed to including the source in Jakarta-Struts, just
asking
>a question.
If anyone is interested, I have a Struts project setup at
SourceForge that is open to all comers.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/struts
I wouldn't mind turning this into a Struts commons, where we can
all cooperate on developing various extensions to the Struts core.
-Ted.
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Re: Tools in Struts [was: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002]
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Robert Leland wrote:
> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:29:24 -0500
> From: Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org>
> Reply-To: Struts Developers List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Struts Developers List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Tools in Struts [was: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002]
>
> James Holmes wrote:
> > Struts Console too.
> >
> > -james
> >
> > --- Emmanuel Boudrant <b7...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
> >
> >>>I think it is time to start packaging tools and
> >>
> >>generators with Struts to
> >>
> >>>help the developer
> >>
> >>Thats a really good initiative
> >>
> >>Easy Struts will be volunteer ;)
> >>
> >>-emmanuel
>
> Would the source reside in jakrata-Struts or just the applications?
> The reason I ask is that for speed of evolution it might
> be reasonable to keep/place the source code on
> SourceForge, in an open community. That way Emmanuel and James could
> draw from a seperate pool of developers as THEY saw fit.
>
(I'll expand on my thinking about the roadmap for post-1.1 when I've had a
little more sleep :-).
On this specific issue, it can be done either way -- cohosted in the
Struts project or separate and just binary inclusion. The only potential
problem for the latter approach is license compatibility for the code to
be redistributed with Struts (the FSF doesn't feel that GPL is compatible
with the Apache software license in this regard, so as a matter of policy
Apache projects do not redistribute GPL'd code.
> Also then they might combine resources and create a hybrid product.
>
> I am not opposed to including the source in Jakarta-Struts, just asking
> a question.
>
> -Rob
>
>
Craig
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Tools in Struts [was: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002]
Posted by Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org>.
James Holmes wrote:
> Struts Console too.
>
> -james
>
> --- Emmanuel Boudrant <b7...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
>>>I think it is time to start packaging tools and
>>
>>generators with Struts to
>>
>>>help the developer
>>
>>Thats a really good initiative
>>
>>Easy Struts will be volunteer ;)
>>
>>-emmanuel
Would the source reside in jakrata-Struts or just the applications?
The reason I ask is that for speed of evolution it might
be reasonable to keep/place the source code on
SourceForge, in an open community. That way Emmanuel and James could
draw from a seperate pool of developers as THEY saw fit.
Also then they might combine resources and create a hybrid product.
I am not opposed to including the source in Jakarta-Struts, just asking
a question.
-Rob
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Re: [Nightly] Documentation
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Robert Leland wrote:
> Next time the Nightly documentation is updated,
> I'd like to request that the JavaDoc also be updated.
> From what I can tell it hasn't been updated for at
> least a month or so. I have read the directions for
> updating the web site, but don't knoe if I myself
> have access to do it ?
FYI, the JavaDocs on the site were updated when I uploaded the 1.1-b3
release plan last night.
--
Martin Cooper
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
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[Nightly] Documentation
Posted by Robert Leland <rl...@apache.org>.
Next time the Nightly documentation is updated,
I'd like to request that the JavaDoc also be updated.
From what I can tell it hasn't been updated for at
least a month or so. I have read the directions for
updating the web site, but don't knoe if I myself
have access to do it ?
-Rob
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Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002
Posted by James Holmes <jh...@yahoo.com>.
Struts Console too.
-james
--- Emmanuel Boudrant <b7...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
> >I think it is time to start packaging tools and
> generators with Struts to
> >help the developer
>
> Thats a really good initiative
>
> Easy Struts will be volunteer ;)
>
> -emmanuel
>
> --- "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> a
> �crit�: >
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Erik Hatcher wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:09:36 -0800
> > > From: Erik Hatcher <er...@hatcher.net>
> > > Reply-To: Struts Developers List
> <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > To: Struts Developers List
> <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002
> > >
> > > Craig,
> > >
> > > It was nice meeting you and attending your
> Struts 1.1 session on
> > > Tuesday. I'm curious what came of the BOF to
> discuss the future of Struts.
> > >
> >
> > Well, there were only a few of us, and no video
> equipment :-), but it was
> > a good discussion.
> >
> > We basically walked through some of the items that
> are already on the
> > STATUS page sections on the 1.2 roadmap (likely to
> stay backwards
> > compatible) and the 2.0 roadmap (likely to be
> rebuilt on top of Filters).
> > However, I've added some items I've been thinking
> about, one of which
> > makes your message quite timely.
> >
> > I think it is time to start packaging tools and
> generators with Struts to
> > help the developer -- either as standalone
> packages included for
> > convenience, or integrated into the architecture
> of the package. It
> > wouldbe interesting to explore how XDoclet fits in
> to this vision.
> >
> > > I'd be really interested in your thoughts on the
> XDoclet work I've done,
> > > especially in the Struts Validator realm. I'm
> generating validation.xml
> > > completely, and also all the form bean
> definitions in our system. I
> > > also use XDoclet to process form beans for a
> one-time starter code
> > > generation of a JSP page (templated to our
> specific look and feel) for a
> > > specified form bean, as well as the resource
> properties that can be used
> > > as a starting point for the application resource
> properties for the
> > > field labels. Its amazing amount of generation
> just on the Struts-side
> > > of things, but we use XDoclet for even more than
> that too.
> > >
> >
> > I haven't done a huge amount of review, but I like
> the basic notion of
> > generating things like this. I'm still getting my
> head around the idea of
> > doing this from special tags in the source, but
> I'll get there ...
> >
> > > As for DynaActionForm's.... I still don't get
> their benefit. Do you use
> > > them? Or right ActionForm subclasses? Its even
> less code to "write" to
> > > do a form bean for me, because my IDE generates
> all the getter/setters,
> > > and being able to generate validation.xml makes
> it so worthwhile. :)
> > >
> >
> > I can see your point in a world where the cost of
> creating standard
> > ActionForm beans is so low (because the tool does
> it for you). However,
> > there's a couple of themes that are still
> involved:
> >
> > * Lots of people are still stuck in a world where
> they generate
> > these things by hand (even though some level of
> tooling support
> > is freely available). For those folks, not
> having to create these
> > classes is a real benefit.
> >
> > * Even in a tool-generated world, it's simpler for
> a tool to generate
> > just the struts-config.xml fragment than the
> whole bean classes --
> > to say nothing of not needing to compile
> anything.
> >
> > * You should still be able to generate
> validation.xml if you start
> > from a common definition of the fields. One of
> the things I want
> > to investigate is embedding the validation rules
> directly in the
> > <form-bean> element, for example, so everything
> about the bean
> > is in one place. (In a high-level UML based
> tool, for example,
> > all this stuff would be part of the metadata
> about a particular
> > form captured in the model.)
> >
> > * DynaBean in 1.1 only solves part of the
> "dynamic" needs people
> > have. The next logical step is an abstraction
> that does not predefine
> > the set of properties at all (consider a SQL
> browser that dynamically
> > creates properties for each row based on the
> column names included in
> > your SELECT). We'll be able to build this on
> top of the existing
> > DynaBean infrastructure much more easily than we
> could on top of
> > standard JavaBeans.
> >
> > > Take care and hopefully I'll get a chance to
> chat with you further at
> > > some point during the week at ApacheCon.
> > >
> >
> > I will be in the hacker's lounge this afternoon
> (after lunch until 3:30),
> > and will then be either there or in the Exhibition
> Hall most of tomorrow.
> > I'd be happy to sit down and talk some more,
> although I'm unlikely to have
> > time for any in depth reviews first.
> >
> > > Erik
> > >
> >
> > Craig
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> > > > If you're coming to Las Vegas this week for
> ApacheCon, there will be two
> > > > sessions and a BOF specifically focused on
> Struts:
> > > >
> > > > * Session TU07 (Tuesday, 1:30-2:30) - What's
> New In Struts 1.1
> > > >
> > > > * Session WE06 (Wednesday, 10:00-11:00) -
> Building Web Applications
> > > > With Struts
> > > >
> > > > * BOF BOF03 (Tuesday, 8:00p-9:00p) - Struts
> After 1.1 -- Where Do We
> > > > Go From Here?
> > > >
> > > > The BOF is primarily an opportunity to gather
> input from folks on our
> > > > initial thinking about the 1.2 and 2.0
> roadmaps, and to answer any general
> > > > questions that people have.
> > > >
> > > > I look forward to meeting any Struts users
> (and developers) attending the
> > > > conference. You can find me at one of these
> sessions, or hanging around
> > > > the Sun booths in the Exhibit Hall.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Craig McClanahan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
>
>
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Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002
Posted by Emmanuel Boudrant <b7...@yahoo.fr>.
>I think it is time to start packaging tools and generators with Struts to
>help the developer
Thats a really good initiative
Easy Struts will be volunteer ;)
-emmanuel
--- "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> a écrit : >
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Erik Hatcher wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:09:36 -0800
> > From: Erik Hatcher <er...@hatcher.net>
> > Reply-To: Struts Developers List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > To: Struts Developers List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002
> >
> > Craig,
> >
> > It was nice meeting you and attending your Struts 1.1 session on
> > Tuesday. I'm curious what came of the BOF to discuss the future of Struts.
> >
>
> Well, there were only a few of us, and no video equipment :-), but it was
> a good discussion.
>
> We basically walked through some of the items that are already on the
> STATUS page sections on the 1.2 roadmap (likely to stay backwards
> compatible) and the 2.0 roadmap (likely to be rebuilt on top of Filters).
> However, I've added some items I've been thinking about, one of which
> makes your message quite timely.
>
> I think it is time to start packaging tools and generators with Struts to
> help the developer -- either as standalone packages included for
> convenience, or integrated into the architecture of the package. It
> wouldbe interesting to explore how XDoclet fits in to this vision.
>
> > I'd be really interested in your thoughts on the XDoclet work I've done,
> > especially in the Struts Validator realm. I'm generating validation.xml
> > completely, and also all the form bean definitions in our system. I
> > also use XDoclet to process form beans for a one-time starter code
> > generation of a JSP page (templated to our specific look and feel) for a
> > specified form bean, as well as the resource properties that can be used
> > as a starting point for the application resource properties for the
> > field labels. Its amazing amount of generation just on the Struts-side
> > of things, but we use XDoclet for even more than that too.
> >
>
> I haven't done a huge amount of review, but I like the basic notion of
> generating things like this. I'm still getting my head around the idea of
> doing this from special tags in the source, but I'll get there ...
>
> > As for DynaActionForm's.... I still don't get their benefit. Do you use
> > them? Or right ActionForm subclasses? Its even less code to "write" to
> > do a form bean for me, because my IDE generates all the getter/setters,
> > and being able to generate validation.xml makes it so worthwhile. :)
> >
>
> I can see your point in a world where the cost of creating standard
> ActionForm beans is so low (because the tool does it for you). However,
> there's a couple of themes that are still involved:
>
> * Lots of people are still stuck in a world where they generate
> these things by hand (even though some level of tooling support
> is freely available). For those folks, not having to create these
> classes is a real benefit.
>
> * Even in a tool-generated world, it's simpler for a tool to generate
> just the struts-config.xml fragment than the whole bean classes --
> to say nothing of not needing to compile anything.
>
> * You should still be able to generate validation.xml if you start
> from a common definition of the fields. One of the things I want
> to investigate is embedding the validation rules directly in the
> <form-bean> element, for example, so everything about the bean
> is in one place. (In a high-level UML based tool, for example,
> all this stuff would be part of the metadata about a particular
> form captured in the model.)
>
> * DynaBean in 1.1 only solves part of the "dynamic" needs people
> have. The next logical step is an abstraction that does not predefine
> the set of properties at all (consider a SQL browser that dynamically
> creates properties for each row based on the column names included in
> your SELECT). We'll be able to build this on top of the existing
> DynaBean infrastructure much more easily than we could on top of
> standard JavaBeans.
>
> > Take care and hopefully I'll get a chance to chat with you further at
> > some point during the week at ApacheCon.
> >
>
> I will be in the hacker's lounge this afternoon (after lunch until 3:30),
> and will then be either there or in the Exhibition Hall most of tomorrow.
> I'd be happy to sit down and talk some more, although I'm unlikely to have
> time for any in depth reviews first.
>
> > Erik
> >
>
> Craig
>
>
> >
> > Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> > > If you're coming to Las Vegas this week for ApacheCon, there will be two
> > > sessions and a BOF specifically focused on Struts:
> > >
> > > * Session TU07 (Tuesday, 1:30-2:30) - What's New In Struts 1.1
> > >
> > > * Session WE06 (Wednesday, 10:00-11:00) - Building Web Applications
> > > With Struts
> > >
> > > * BOF BOF03 (Tuesday, 8:00p-9:00p) - Struts After 1.1 -- Where Do We
> > > Go From Here?
> > >
> > > The BOF is primarily an opportunity to gather input from folks on our
> > > initial thinking about the 1.2 and 2.0 roadmaps, and to answer any general
> > > questions that people have.
> > >
> > > I look forward to meeting any Struts users (and developers) attending the
> > > conference. You can find me at one of these sessions, or hanging around
> > > the Sun booths in the Exhibit Hall.
> > >
> > >
> > > Craig McClanahan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Erik Hatcher wrote:
> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:09:36 -0800
> From: Erik Hatcher <er...@hatcher.net>
> Reply-To: Struts Developers List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Struts Developers List <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002
>
> Craig,
>
> It was nice meeting you and attending your Struts 1.1 session on
> Tuesday. I'm curious what came of the BOF to discuss the future of Struts.
>
Well, there were only a few of us, and no video equipment :-), but it was
a good discussion.
We basically walked through some of the items that are already on the
STATUS page sections on the 1.2 roadmap (likely to stay backwards
compatible) and the 2.0 roadmap (likely to be rebuilt on top of Filters).
However, I've added some items I've been thinking about, one of which
makes your message quite timely.
I think it is time to start packaging tools and generators with Struts to
help the developer -- either as standalone packages included for
convenience, or integrated into the architecture of the package. It
wouldbe interesting to explore how XDoclet fits in to this vision.
> I'd be really interested in your thoughts on the XDoclet work I've done,
> especially in the Struts Validator realm. I'm generating validation.xml
> completely, and also all the form bean definitions in our system. I
> also use XDoclet to process form beans for a one-time starter code
> generation of a JSP page (templated to our specific look and feel) for a
> specified form bean, as well as the resource properties that can be used
> as a starting point for the application resource properties for the
> field labels. Its amazing amount of generation just on the Struts-side
> of things, but we use XDoclet for even more than that too.
>
I haven't done a huge amount of review, but I like the basic notion of
generating things like this. I'm still getting my head around the idea of
doing this from special tags in the source, but I'll get there ...
> As for DynaActionForm's.... I still don't get their benefit. Do you use
> them? Or right ActionForm subclasses? Its even less code to "write" to
> do a form bean for me, because my IDE generates all the getter/setters,
> and being able to generate validation.xml makes it so worthwhile. :)
>
I can see your point in a world where the cost of creating standard
ActionForm beans is so low (because the tool does it for you). However,
there's a couple of themes that are still involved:
* Lots of people are still stuck in a world where they generate
these things by hand (even though some level of tooling support
is freely available). For those folks, not having to create these
classes is a real benefit.
* Even in a tool-generated world, it's simpler for a tool to generate
just the struts-config.xml fragment than the whole bean classes --
to say nothing of not needing to compile anything.
* You should still be able to generate validation.xml if you start
from a common definition of the fields. One of the things I want
to investigate is embedding the validation rules directly in the
<form-bean> element, for example, so everything about the bean
is in one place. (In a high-level UML based tool, for example,
all this stuff would be part of the metadata about a particular
form captured in the model.)
* DynaBean in 1.1 only solves part of the "dynamic" needs people
have. The next logical step is an abstraction that does not predefine
the set of properties at all (consider a SQL browser that dynamically
creates properties for each row based on the column names included in
your SELECT). We'll be able to build this on top of the existing
DynaBean infrastructure much more easily than we could on top of
standard JavaBeans.
> Take care and hopefully I'll get a chance to chat with you further at
> some point during the week at ApacheCon.
>
I will be in the hacker's lounge this afternoon (after lunch until 3:30),
and will then be either there or in the Exhibition Hall most of tomorrow.
I'd be happy to sit down and talk some more, although I'm unlikely to have
time for any in depth reviews first.
> Erik
>
Craig
>
> Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> > If you're coming to Las Vegas this week for ApacheCon, there will be two
> > sessions and a BOF specifically focused on Struts:
> >
> > * Session TU07 (Tuesday, 1:30-2:30) - What's New In Struts 1.1
> >
> > * Session WE06 (Wednesday, 10:00-11:00) - Building Web Applications
> > With Struts
> >
> > * BOF BOF03 (Tuesday, 8:00p-9:00p) - Struts After 1.1 -- Where Do We
> > Go From Here?
> >
> > The BOF is primarily an opportunity to gather input from folks on our
> > initial thinking about the 1.2 and 2.0 roadmaps, and to answer any general
> > questions that people have.
> >
> > I look forward to meeting any Struts users (and developers) attending the
> > conference. You can find me at one of these sessions, or hanging around
> > the Sun booths in the Exhibit Hall.
> >
> >
> > Craig McClanahan
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: Benefits of Dynaforms
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
11/20/2002 3:09:36 AM, Erik Hatcher <er...@hatcher.net> wrote:
>As for DynaActionForm's.... I still don't get their benefit. Do
>you use them? Or right ActionForm subclasses? Its even less
>code to "write" to do a form bean for me, because my IDE
>generates all the getter/setters, and being able to generate
>validation.xml makes it so worthwhile. :)
The nice thing about DynaForms is that they are a "simple"
solution to a simple problem: I just want to store and validate
some simple properties on the presentation layer before passing
them up to the business tier. Sure some tools can make JavaBeans
very easy to write. DynaBeans are just another one of those tools,
and a GUI independant tool at that. It doesn't matter if you are
using Eclipse or IntelliJ or JBuilder. A DynaBean is a DynaBean.
And before long, I'm sure the IDEs will be helping you code
DynaBeans too =:0)
The truly excellent part is that you can extend DynaActionForm to
create complex helper properties when you need them, or just use
the base class when you don't. YMTD.
But here's the kicker: With the help of the Validator and a
handful of standard Actions, DynaBeans open the door to doing the
~entire~ presentation tier via XML configuration files. I rarely
write custom Actions any more. With DynaBeans, I may also be able
to get out of writing custom ActionForms.
Ideally, a framework like Struts should just be passing gestures
and data back and forth between the presentation pages and
business tier. IMHO, doing any "real" programming in Struts is an
engineering compromise. Architecturally, we should be trying to
help developers avoid as many "necessary evils" as possible.
DynaBeans serve that purpose by making it possible to avoid
creating and maintaining yet-another Java class, which, in
practice, often encroaches on the business tier.
Before DynaBeans, that practice was unavoidable (or at least
caused greater evils). With DynaBeans, there is a real possibility
that you could code the Struts portion of an application entirely
through XML configuration files, and keep all the "real
programming" on the business tier.
Here's another kicker: Components like the Validator aren't just
for the web tier. You could also be using the Commons Validator in
the business tier, which opens the door to a common Validator
configuration shared by Struts and the business tier.
DynaBeans also have the potential of being the "missing buffer" we
need for data-entry. What about a DynaBean class that included a
"shadow" String field with every dynamic property? (All we need is
another map.) If we integrated a DynaBeanBuffer subclass with the
Validator, we could then declare field-level validations for our
properties. A validate method on the DynaBean could check each of
its buffers, and transfer the datea if validation passed, but
raise a flag if it didn't. We could then finally use the same bean
on the Web tier as we do on the business tier. This sort of thing
is a bear to code with conventional JavaBean, but might be worth
doing with something like the DynaBean.
-Ted.
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Re: Struts At ApacheCon 2002
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@hatcher.net>.
Craig,
It was nice meeting you and attending your Struts 1.1 session on
Tuesday. I'm curious what came of the BOF to discuss the future of Struts.
I'd be really interested in your thoughts on the XDoclet work I've done,
especially in the Struts Validator realm. I'm generating validation.xml
completely, and also all the form bean definitions in our system. I
also use XDoclet to process form beans for a one-time starter code
generation of a JSP page (templated to our specific look and feel) for a
specified form bean, as well as the resource properties that can be used
as a starting point for the application resource properties for the
field labels. Its amazing amount of generation just on the Struts-side
of things, but we use XDoclet for even more than that too.
As for DynaActionForm's.... I still don't get their benefit. Do you use
them? Or right ActionForm subclasses? Its even less code to "write" to
do a form bean for me, because my IDE generates all the getter/setters,
and being able to generate validation.xml makes it so worthwhile. :)
Take care and hopefully I'll get a chance to chat with you further at
some point during the week at ApacheCon.
Erik
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> If you're coming to Las Vegas this week for ApacheCon, there will be two
> sessions and a BOF specifically focused on Struts:
>
> * Session TU07 (Tuesday, 1:30-2:30) - What's New In Struts 1.1
>
> * Session WE06 (Wednesday, 10:00-11:00) - Building Web Applications
> With Struts
>
> * BOF BOF03 (Tuesday, 8:00p-9:00p) - Struts After 1.1 -- Where Do We
> Go From Here?
>
> The BOF is primarily an opportunity to gather input from folks on our
> initial thinking about the 1.2 and 2.0 roadmaps, and to answer any general
> questions that people have.
>
> I look forward to meeting any Struts users (and developers) attending the
> conference. You can find me at one of these sessions, or hanging around
> the Sun booths in the Exhibit Hall.
>
>
> Craig McClanahan
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
>
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