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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Kurtis Williams <kw...@mshare.net> on 2005/03/23 00:57:21 UTC
Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
I just read this in Rick Hightower's blog:
http://www.jroller.com/page/RickHigh/20050321
In it he states: "Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax and JSF will be the
VHS. The fate is written on the wall. Tapestry is better. JSF seems
like it will dominate anyway."
Seems like we need a strategy on this. Hibernate faced this same
problem with JDO and came out on top. We need to use the same kind of
strategy...
Not to beat a dead horse, but it occurs to me that components are the
reason you use a framework. We need a vibrant community of commercial
and open-source components behind us.
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by "t.n.a." <tn...@sharanet.org>.
Kent Tong wrote:
>Kurtis Williams <kwilliams <at> mshare.net> writes:
>
>
>
>>Not to beat a dead horse, but it occurs to me that components are the
>>reason you use a framework. We need a vibrant community of commercial
>>and open-source components behind us.
>>
>I believe marketing is far more important than components
>or any other technical aspects of Tapestry. Technically
>it is already far superior to any other competitors in
>the Java world.
>
>
Well...I guess that depends. No amount of marketing would make me use
tapestry if I didn't really like it's design: I believe the same goes
for a lot of people here, as well as others.
Still, marketing is always good, so if you have ideas how to lobby the
larger vendors to support and bundle tapestry, I'd be happy to hear it.
I'm a computer engineer, not a marketing expert - the same inherently
applies to a lot of people reading this mail, so other than word of
mouth, I'm at a loss as to how I could contribute to the effort.
Till I hear of a sound, doable strategy, all I can do is contribute to
the techology via docs, bugreports, components, user support and the
like and possibly organize a meeting with Vjeran as the only Tapestry
user I know in a 100 kilometer radius. :)
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Preparing the stage [WAS: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?]
Posted by Vjeran Marcinko <vj...@tis.hr>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Raible" <li...@raibledesigns.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
> > Ruby on Rails has been very successful in their marketing (and word of
> > mouth). David HH solicited money for a professionally designed logo
> > and web site and it shows. Rails now has no less than four books
> > coming out this year and the framework isn't even a year old.
>
> Yeah, they also do releases monthly, not yearly. ;-)
Now you have struck Tapestry at weak spot ;)
I think that currently single most important thing for Tapestry is to
prepare the stage for other developers and volounteers to jump in and help
Howard, because as good as he is, he is only one man after all. Besides, he
has one more project (HiveMind) to take care of.
Unfortunately, HiveMind integration, and Portlet-related refactorings
lately, are changing Tapestry's internals so deeply that I guess most of
other commiters are waiting for things to settle down, so the things can
roll out with some proper pace.
-Vjeran
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Re: How to build library
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
I can't take the drama anymore! :-D
This is the library file:
foo.library:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE library-specification PUBLIC
"-//Apache Software Foundation//Tapestry Specification 3.0//EN"
"http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry/dtd/Tapestry_3_0.dtd">
<library-specification>
<library id="foo"
specification-path="/org/apache/tapestry/contrib/Contrib.library"/>
<component-type type="TextArea" specification-path="form/TextArea.jwc"/>
</library-specification>
---------
Then in your .applicaton file:
<library id="foo" specification-path="/org/your/package/foo.library"/>
Since the id="foo" when you use your new component, prefix it's type with
"foo:":
<component id="someName" type="foo:TextArea">
<binding...../>
</component>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Hatcher" <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: How to build library
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Krishna Manchikalapudi wrote:
>> I appreicate if you can send me erik.
>
> Do you cover shipping charges?
>
> Erik
>
>
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Re: How to build library
Posted by Krishna Manchikalapudi <kr...@corpus.com>.
what do u mean by "Do you cover shipping charges?"
I was expecting some url or sample code to construct library's using
tapestry.
Cheers & Beers,
Krishna
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Website: http://www.mkrishna.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Hatcher" <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: How to build library
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Krishna Manchikalapudi wrote:
>> I appreicate if you can send me erik.
>
> Do you cover shipping charges?
>
> Erik
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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Re: How to build library
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
On Mar 23, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Krishna Manchikalapudi wrote:
> I appreicate if you can send me erik.
Do you cover shipping charges?
Erik
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Re: How to build library
Posted by Krishna Manchikalapudi <kr...@corpus.com>.
yes,
Right now my project very big & its difficult to maintain tapestry (.page &
.html). Atlast, we have splitted into 3 independent pieces. The main module
will have other 2 modules as jar file (eg: tapestry contrib library)
I appreicate if you can send me erik.
Cheers & Beers,
Krishna
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Website: http://www.mkrishna.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Hatcher" <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: How to build library
> You mean like the contrib library that is in Tapestry's CVS?!
>
> cvs co jakarta-tapestry
>
> :)
>
> Erik
>
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 2:33 PM, Krishna Manchikalapudi wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Am looking for an example to construct library functionality for my
>> project.
>>
>> I appreciate if some one can mail me the code or url
>>
>> Cheers & Beers,
>> Krishna
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>> Website: http://www.mkrishna.com
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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>
>
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Re: How to build library
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
You mean like the contrib library that is in Tapestry's CVS?!
cvs co jakarta-tapestry
:)
Erik
On Mar 23, 2005, at 2:33 PM, Krishna Manchikalapudi wrote:
> Hi,
> Am looking for an example to construct library functionality for my
> project.
>
> I appreciate if some one can mail me the code or url
>
> Cheers & Beers,
> Krishna
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> Website: http://www.mkrishna.com
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>
>
>
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How to build library
Posted by Krishna Manchikalapudi <kr...@corpus.com>.
Hi,
Am looking for an example to construct library functionality for my
project.
I appreciate if some one can mail me the code or url
Cheers & Beers,
Krishna
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Website: http://www.mkrishna.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
I just noticed you're on Textdrive. LOL.
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: "PA" <pe...@gmail.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 19:57, Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
>
>> In the Rails world, with a few commands I can have a running app, and
>> basic files for test, development and production work.
>
> Hmmm... right... this is all good and well... and this is precisely
> what DirectToWeb does. If the current incarnation of WebObjects is a
> viable and sustainable technology in and by itself is another issue
> altogether.
>
> One way or another, I rather enjoy this entire, er, out-roar 8^)
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> PA, Onnay Equitursay
> http://alt.textdrive.com/
>
>
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by PA <pe...@gmail.com>.
On Mar 23, 2005, at 19:57, Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
> In the Rails world, with a few commands I can have a running app, and
> basic files for test, development and production work.
Hmmm... right... this is all good and well... and this is precisely
what DirectToWeb does. If the current incarnation of WebObjects is a
viable and sustainable technology in and by itself is another issue
altogether.
One way or another, I rather enjoy this entire, er, out-roar 8^)
Cheers
--
PA, Onnay Equitursay
http://alt.textdrive.com/
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
How many WO projects are out there? I looked at the Apple Developers
Conference schedule for this Summer and there is not one session on WO. When
I went two years ago, it was clear WO was dead in the water.
Look, all I'm saying is that Rails has done something I haven't really seen
before (even in WO, which I toyed around with three years ago) in the Web
app development world: make it easy to get the full stack of a basic app
running in an hour or so and the iteratively build that out. That's what
agile development is all about. I can't do that with Tapestry,
Cayenne/Hibernate, etc in an hour. Trails is making an attempt at this. In
the Rails world, with a few commands I can have a running app, and basic
files for test, development and production work.
Also, I'm not saying Rails is better than Tapestry w/ Cayenne or Hibernate.
I'm not interested any of those stupid arguments about "mine's better than
yours". I am interested in seeing what I can learn from different frameworks
and seeing what tools are best for what jobs.
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: "PA" <pe...@gmail.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 19:37, Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
>
>> In fact, one thing I admire about rails is that you can get a full CRUD
>> app up and running in no time and then iteratively replace the default
>> stuff with your more sophisticated code. It takes agile Web development
>> to the next level.
>
> How does such new "leap" compares to WebObjects fabled DirectToWeb?
>
> "The Direct to Web Approach"
> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/WebObjects/
> WebObjects_Overview/WebApplications/chapter_4_section_6.html
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> PA, Onnay Equitursay
> http://alt.textdrive.com/
>
>
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by PA <pe...@gmail.com>.
On Mar 23, 2005, at 19:37, Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
> In fact, one thing I admire about rails is that you can get a full
> CRUD app up and running in no time and then iteratively replace the
> default stuff with your more sophisticated code. It takes agile Web
> development to the next level.
How does such new "leap" compares to WebObjects fabled DirectToWeb?
"The Direct to Web Approach"
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/WebObjects/
WebObjects_Overview/WebApplications/chapter_4_section_6.html
Cheers
--
PA, Onnay Equitursay
http://alt.textdrive.com/
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
Actually, you are mistaken about this. You can start with all the
conventional ways and then change the out later if you want. Rails is quite
flexible that way.
In fact, one thing I admire about rails is that you can get a full CRUD app
up and running in no time and then iteratively replace the default stuff
with your more sophisticated code. It takes agile Web development to the
next level.
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Konstantin Iignatyev" <kg...@yahoo.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
> People always get exited when something could be created quickly.
> Personally I am not exited about Rails because they are -"Rails". It means
> that everything should go in the prescribed way. Pretty much like MS tools
> and ideology - it is very easy to get done what they expected you to do
> and VERY difficult to get done what you want.
>
> There is great difference between speed of creating something workable,
> and speed and convenience to create _exactly_ what
> designer-manager-developer want/need.
> And speed-and-convenience of later maintenance and enhancements ids
> another matter.
>
>
> I guess Tapestry wins as the best tool for entire livecycle.
> I think MDA/middlegen/trails should be the way to get started with
> Tapestry quickly. And I think MDA is preferable way because of fancy
> diagrams, they might get managers excited!
>
>
>
>
>
> Matt Raible wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mar 23, 2005, at 8:07 AM, Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
>>
>>> Ruby on Rails has been very successful in their marketing (and word of
>>> mouth). David HH solicited money for a professionally designed logo and
>>> web site and it shows. Rails now has no less than four books coming out
>>> this year and the framework isn't even a year old.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, they also do releases monthly, not yearly. ;-)
>>
>> Matt
>>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
> http://www.kgionline.com
>
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between
> forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil,
> add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population
> by 263.000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs
> a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York:
> State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>
>
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
People always get exited when something could be created quickly.
Personally I am not exited about Rails because they are -"Rails". It
means that everything should go in the prescribed way. Pretty much like
MS tools and ideology - it is very easy to get done what they expected
you to do and VERY difficult to get done what you want.
There is great difference between speed of creating something workable,
and speed and convenience to create _exactly_ what
designer-manager-developer want/need.
And speed-and-convenience of later maintenance and enhancements ids
another matter.
I guess Tapestry wins as the best tool for entire livecycle.
I think MDA/middlegen/trails should be the way to get started with
Tapestry quickly. And I think MDA is preferable way because of fancy
diagrams, they might get managers excited!
Matt Raible wrote:
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 8:07 AM, Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
>
>> Ruby on Rails has been very successful in their marketing (and word
>> of mouth). David HH solicited money for a professionally designed
>> logo and web site and it shows. Rails now has no less than four books
>> coming out this year and the framework isn't even a year old.
>
>
> Yeah, they also do releases monthly, not yearly. ;-)
>
> Matt
>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
no kidding!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Raible" <li...@raibledesigns.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 8:07 AM, Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
>
>> Ruby on Rails has been very successful in their marketing (and word of
>> mouth). David HH solicited money for a professionally designed logo
>> and web site and it shows. Rails now has no less than four books
>> coming out this year and the framework isn't even a year old.
>
> Yeah, they also do releases monthly, not yearly. ;-)
>
> Matt
>
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>>
>> On Mar 23, 2005, at 1:53 AM, Kent Tong wrote:
>>
>>> Kurtis Williams <kwilliams <at> mshare.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> Not to beat a dead horse, but it occurs to me that components are the
>>>> reason you use a framework. We need a vibrant community of
>>>> commercial
>>>> and open-source components behind us.
>>>
>>> I believe marketing is far more important than components
>>> or any other technical aspects of Tapestry. Technically
>>> it is already far superior to any other competitors in
>>> the Java world.
>>>
>>> Therefore, we need a strategy of marketing Tapestry. On a
>>> smaller scale, tell your friends about it, talk about it in
>>> your local IT events or gathering. On a larger scale,
>>> join our forces to lobby the large vendors/organizations to
>>> bundle, endorse or support Tapestry in some way (IBM, BEA,
>>> JBoss, ...). Just imagine if IBM bundled Tapestry with
>>> WebSphere, we'd have a great news headline that will
>>> be 100 times more powerful to an CIO than our words.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Matt Raible <li...@raibledesigns.com>.
On Mar 23, 2005, at 8:07 AM, Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
> Ruby on Rails has been very successful in their marketing (and word of
> mouth). David HH solicited money for a professionally designed logo
> and web site and it shows. Rails now has no less than four books
> coming out this year and the framework isn't even a year old.
Yeah, they also do releases monthly, not yearly. ;-)
Matt
>
> Jamie
>
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 1:53 AM, Kent Tong wrote:
>
>> Kurtis Williams <kwilliams <at> mshare.net> writes:
>>
>>> Not to beat a dead horse, but it occurs to me that components are the
>>> reason you use a framework. We need a vibrant community of
>>> commercial
>>> and open-source components behind us.
>>
>> I believe marketing is far more important than components
>> or any other technical aspects of Tapestry. Technically
>> it is already far superior to any other competitors in
>> the Java world.
>>
>> Therefore, we need a strategy of marketing Tapestry. On a
>> smaller scale, tell your friends about it, talk about it in
>> your local IT events or gathering. On a larger scale,
>> join our forces to lobby the large vendors/organizations to
>> bundle, endorse or support Tapestry in some way (IBM, BEA,
>> JBoss, ...). Just imagine if IBM bundled Tapestry with
>> WebSphere, we'd have a great news headline that will
>> be 100 times more powerful to an CIO than our words.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
Ruby on Rails has been very successful in their marketing (and word of
mouth). David HH solicited money for a professionally designed logo and
web site and it shows. Rails now has no less than four books coming out
this year and the framework isn't even a year old.
Jamie
On Mar 23, 2005, at 1:53 AM, Kent Tong wrote:
> Kurtis Williams <kwilliams <at> mshare.net> writes:
>
>> Not to beat a dead horse, but it occurs to me that components are the
>> reason you use a framework. We need a vibrant community of commercial
>> and open-source components behind us.
>
> I believe marketing is far more important than components
> or any other technical aspects of Tapestry. Technically
> it is already far superior to any other competitors in
> the Java world.
>
> Therefore, we need a strategy of marketing Tapestry. On a
> smaller scale, tell your friends about it, talk about it in
> your local IT events or gathering. On a larger scale,
> join our forces to lobby the large vendors/organizations to
> bundle, endorse or support Tapestry in some way (IBM, BEA,
> JBoss, ...). Just imagine if IBM bundled Tapestry with
> WebSphere, we'd have a great news headline that will
> be 100 times more powerful to an CIO than our words.
>
>
>
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Kent Tong <ke...@cpttm.org.mo>.
Kurtis Williams <kwilliams <at> mshare.net> writes:
> Not to beat a dead horse, but it occurs to me that components are the
> reason you use a framework. We need a vibrant community of commercial
> and open-source components behind us.
I believe marketing is far more important than components
or any other technical aspects of Tapestry. Technically
it is already far superior to any other competitors in
the Java world.
Therefore, we need a strategy of marketing Tapestry. On a
smaller scale, tell your friends about it, talk about it in
your local IT events or gathering. On a larger scale,
join our forces to lobby the large vendors/organizations to
bundle, endorse or support Tapestry in some way (IBM, BEA,
JBoss, ...). Just imagine if IBM bundled Tapestry with
WebSphere, we'd have a great news headline that will
be 100 times more powerful to an CIO than our words.
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Vjeran Marcinko <vj...@tis.hr>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vjeran Marcinko" <vj...@tis.hr>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
> And a bit of teaser at the end - Tapestry was praising itself that it's
moto
> is - "Results, not standards". Akhm... isn't Portlet API a standard? I
like
> when you worry only how to make some technology better, and not feel
burden
> of having to support some old-fashioned specifications.
Just to clearify this before some Portlet supporter kills me - I didn't mean
to say that Portlet API is *old fashioned*, actually, it is quite new, but
as time went by, lot of specification turned out to be insufficient, and
changes are not frequent enough to reflect all the practical needs...
-Vjeran
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Vjeran Marcinko <vj...@tis.hr>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Marco" <vm...@mac.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
> And I'll say it again, incompatibility with Portals which are based
> upon JSPs is a serious concern. Not all sites are portals, but a
> significant number of enterprise projects are, and nobody in the
> enterprise space wants to limit their ability to be deployed into a
> Portal downstream. JSR-168 support is very much needed.
Hmmm.... I don't know if it's area where I'm working in or what, but people
rarely mention Portlet API, let alone using it... But since I don't know
much about world-wide movements, I hope you're right.
Actually, it was one of my diappointments when I've seen Howard spending his
too valuable time on this feature (although I was happy for him that someone
is founding him for that) knowing that it does not simplify anything, or add
new needed feature, but merely enables it to work in some special
environments (Portlet containers), merely for companies that has such policy
or tools that require that. Supporting Portlet API, as generally supporting
any API out there, brings constraints to any piece of software, thus making
it less flexible for changes. And seeing how much things he had to rip apart
to implement this one, and how much time he spent on this, I cannot get away
from feeling that lots of other important improvements (unified form
validation, client side persistence, proper Tapestry Component Repository,
documentation...) could be already finished till now.
And a bit of teaser at the end - Tapestry was praising itself that it's moto
is - "Results, not standards". Akhm... isn't Portlet API a standard? I like
when you worry only how to make some technology better, and not feel burden
of having to support some old-fashioned specifications. But as I said, I'm
not so familiar with everything going on in this industry, thus I hope that
this Portlet support will turn out to be really useful.
Cheers,
Vjeran
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Vince Marco <vm...@mac.com>.
While I agree that components are "part" of the difference, I would
definitely say learning curve is the other half. Components provide an
"assembler" strategy for reducing the complexity of apps. The other
side needs to be an easily learnable developer model, with plenty of
learning resources both open and commercial from training courses to
tutorials. That learning path doesn't need to address advanced topics.
The notion that every developer is going to digest TIA and attack
Tapestry as an advanced or even mid-level developer is ludicrous.
Early adopters maybe, but we still have folks baffled by Struts. That
looks to be a mistake that JSF is making as well. It is an
improvement, but I don't see how it simplifies development other than
through components and tools, which may be enough. I'd like to see
some convenience classes. Developers shouldn't have to worry about
overriding the engine or a service, but rather have cookie-cutter
replacements to configure for well traveled web app scenarios. It
doesn't take away the ability to override those pieces when needed, but
it can be an area of specialization.
And I'll say it again, incompatibility with Portals which are based
upon JSPs is a serious concern. Not all sites are portals, but a
significant number of enterprise projects are, and nobody in the
enterprise space wants to limit their ability to be deployed into a
Portal downstream. JSR-168 support is very much needed.
Vince
On Mar 22, 2005, at 7:58 PM, kranga wrote:
> I said it before and people disagreed, but I'll say it again -
> "Components
> are key" followed by good documentation and articles. The focus on
> Tapestry
> 3.1 is not going to help make Tapestry more popular. It only makes it
> "seem"
> more complicated. At the end of the day, significantly better
> technology is
> not going to win it for Tapestry (otherwise Struts should be in the
> garbage
> dump - where it rightly belongs, alongside IIS server). Components
> that wow
> the developer will.
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Henri Dupre <he...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:58:02 -0500, kranga <kr...@k2d2.org> wrote:
> I said it before and people disagreed, but I'll say it again - "Components
> are key" followed by good documentation and articles. The focus on Tapestry
> 3.1 is not going to help make Tapestry more popular. It only makes it "seem"
> more complicated.
I do agree on this one. Simple word applications may be easier in 3.1
but as soon as you need to integrate other frameworks (such as
Spring), you have to dig into the Engine and other components. I'm not
sure that Hivemind is going to make it easier.
On the other hand, documentation and support are good... even if the
steps are complex I think any beginner can do copy paste to get
started.
Henri.
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by kranga <kr...@k2d2.org>.
I said it before and people disagreed, but I'll say it again - "Components
are key" followed by good documentation and articles. The focus on Tapestry
3.1 is not going to help make Tapestry more popular. It only makes it "seem"
more complicated. At the end of the day, significantly better technology is
not going to win it for Tapestry (otherwise Struts should be in the garbage
dump - where it rightly belongs, alongside IIS server). Components that wow
the developer will.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Henderson" <mh...@mac.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
> Hi,
> Yep, I think components are key. That's why I pushed out the remote
> library download feature for the palette plugin. If we can get
> libraries out and downloaded and used in only a minute or so in Eclipse
> I hope that would have enough of a "wow" factor to sell some potential
> users on Tapestry.
>
> Mike
>
>
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Re: Tapestry will be the Sony Betamax? JSF the VHS? Strategy?
Posted by Michael Henderson <mh...@mac.com>.
Hi,
Yep, I think components are key. That's why I pushed out the remote
library download feature for the palette plugin. If we can get
libraries out and downloaded and used in only a minute or so in Eclipse
I hope that would have enough of a "wow" factor to sell some potential
users on Tapestry.
Mike
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